I find it hilarious that the community knows how little Nintendo cares that they don’t skip a beat before trying to solve it themselves. Seriously, any other game company would patch this out in a couple days
@@thegentlexylophone And the patch was a cool change that still made it technically possible but gave you a better version of a move needed with rng that would be better in any situation but the infinite. Plus it had possible plot significance. Smash does put anything close to that into the post-creation process.
WhyDo's argument of "It's hard to do" isn't valid lol. Who cares if it's hard to do. Half of the combos that top players regularly use in tournament are "hard to do". The difficulty isn't a factor. People will master it whether it's easy or difficult. I'm imagining someone with insane consistency and skill like Acola putting this into practice and it's nuts.
Dead ass like if you’re good enough with your main what’s stopping you from learning specific timings and inputs that no other characters have. Jokers drag downs, all of the shotos inputs especially kazuya, shulks monado use etc. Just because it’s hard won’t mean people won’t go to training mode to get it down.
I mean.... Half of Melee's tech is "hard to do" Hell, to a brand new player short hops and fastfalling is "hard to do" until it's not... It's just something you skill up and learn to do easily.
@@Ithaca-vv5dy The highest skill players are always pushing the boundaries of what is possible. Hard to input is essentially a non-factor when you get to the top players at majors unless your definition of ‘hard to input’ is “something that was theoretically shown in a TAS but is borderline impossible for human fingers to do”
so much copium, he says the downside to a frame 1 tech is "losing time" when you can punish a move with it while the opponent is still in end lag. every Steve main sounds so unreasonable, they're scared because of how hard they're carried.
whydo is trying to do whatever he can to keep the character legal, he's enough of a labber and competitive player to know how broken it actually is, he's just downplaying it so he doesn't lose a main
Coming from melee this is the easiest ban in existence. Crouch cancel is the most powerful defensive tech in the game. Everyone knows it's broken, but every character has access to it so its part of the game. This is a superpowered crouch cancel that works in the air -- usually supposed to be a worse defensive position than on the ground, since you now have access to aerials which are excellent. This is on top of Steve being toxic, polarizing, centralizing, and overly defensive. It's like if Melee Puff had Yoshi's parry on every one of her jumps AND 20% of the playerbase used her. And she could refresh her jumps by placing blocks midair.
Lol crouch cancel isn’t the most powerful defensive tech imo. it’s really strong but shielding is def the best defense option. Character specific would be Yoshi’s parry. Imo Steve shouldn’t be banned. He’s def the best character in the game but counterplay still exists, unlike brawl Metaknight and Smash Bayo.
@@fullsend4976 Half the cast has no counterplay, block alone destroys so many characters' recoveries and that's not even counting anvil or TNT being insanely strong edgeguarding/trapping moves. Anvil is basically Villager f-smash as an aerial that Steve can smash attack on top of and TNT is similarly deadly to Snake's C4.
I strongly dislike WhyDo's arguement about it being something we've seen before. This tech is the first of its kind from the character because this is an insanely powerful *defensive* tech rather than a setup to just string together combos or kill confirm like NILs are, it feels like trying to compare apples to oranges. A defensive tech on a character like steve is dozens of times stronger than an offensive one, and this damn near the best character specific tech in smash history.
Whydo is coping hard that he's about to lose Steve. I never like to insult players but you can tell he's not being honest with himself about this. Anyone can tell this tech is utterly broken.
@@Bladieblah yoyo glitch is really bad and requires a super specific setup (you need to connect with the first frame of the charging hitbox ONLY, and then you need to release it immedeately and no other part of ness's up or down smash can connect or will not get it) it is super difficult, for what most of the time will just amount to a single free hit Sure it's funny, when you get a PK thunder jacket or a dair jacket, but not really competitively viable, and it doesn't negate any weaknesses the character has or wins mathups on its own
Around 50:00, the just "SDI the combo's" is exactly what people said about smash 4 Bayo. All her shit was SDI'able, ESAM was telling everyone to SDI lol. Yet now everyone agrees smash 4 bayo should have been banned despite SDI counterplay being available
@@JavierPwns He literally showed it in training mode, there is SDI counterplay to smash 4 Bayo. It just goes to show that it's not realistic to perform cause we all know how that went
My biggest issue with the tech isn't necessarily that if done correctly it's a frame 1 escape option. It's that now wiff punishing Steve's airiels is now not something you can even attempt to do without getting hit for it. I'm ok with Steve's safe moves being safe, but now the only thing you can do is punish his landings while they are in the end lag of the moves on the ground, if they even choose to land. For example if they double nair, then you could wiff punish once they land, but that requires a burst option read on a move that has an almost unreactable amound of startup/endlag(15 frames, fastest reaction times are around 13 frames), but a lot of the cast don't have a quick enough option to reactively punish that. My math and reasoning could be wrong, and im ok with tournaments running the tech just so the community might have a chance to figure out more counterplay, but if there isn't a true counterplay, then ban the tech for sure.
Basically don't even think about air to airing Steve with any move other than airials that are incredibly strong and send into tumble at low percent, which some of the cast just don't have. You could use projectiles to get his percent so that moves send into tumble as well, but Steve can also build a wall to force you to approach from the air on stages such as ps2 unless you want him to mine resources for free.
Exactly. A character could have this tech and not be bannable, but when steve already covers so many options simultaneously and then you add this insane tech on top of it it's like the bag of bricks that broke the camel's back. He has too much unique bs and too good frame data and too good combos for you to be getting randomly punished for hitting him. Even from the most optimistic perspective, steve can control a lot of scenarios but often leaves one way to approach him. This covers a lot of those 'one option's.
This is the dead hard/bt problem with dbd you have to treat every player (in this case, a sub for steve) that they have it (can use the tech) and what are you supposed to do? You literally have nothing against it but a hard read and that's it.
@@Quinnsula5 As a Byleth, what am I left with for Neutral? Only Sweetspot Fair/Bair? Cuz Sourspot doesn’t tumble at low%. Up-Smash doesn’t work nor does Up-B nor does Rising Nair… so there goes ALL of my OFS options. This sucks.
I think with how shaky the smash tournament scene is and esports is in general, they need to avoid anything thatll trip up the smoothness of tournaments for a while. Banning this tech will put an unnecessary strain on TOs and the people running tournaments. Either ban the character or not but dont just ban a tech
Imma say it: the "hard to do" argument literally cannot exist in a world of competitive mindset. Let's not forget who got second in this recent Genesis
i like what someone said in chat. "The thing with Steve tech is that the player KNOWS it's an option, so whether it happens or not it's gonna affect your gameplan and the way you approach because the MENACE of it happening exists"
He was very biased and calling people that think Steve is a problem sheep. I'm not really seeing what so mature about that. Hbox was being nice about it and handled it very well though, made sure he felt welcome and supported despite being the youngest
I didnt like his argument about how 'NO ONE WILL USE THE TECH ANYWAY' bc hbox said theyd keep an eye on it for the next coinbox. of course all the steve mains will be on guard and wont do it every chance they get but we need to think about this in the long run.
24:54 I don't like how everything seems to be a joke for WhyDo. What he's basically saying is that we should allow a literal who beat the best in the world before we do anything about this tech. The thing is, there's money on the line. He's asking to let players get robbed by Steve's bs for a while just for "le memes".
I'ma keep it a buck, even if the tech is banned top players will have to be on their toes worrying about this tech coming out and telling a moderator/TO to take a look, it *will* take focus from the opponent of Steve to have this worry about having to notice something being off in a game/set, at least in the beginning until Steve just forget about it because it was in fact banned and not usable.
Why did nobody understand what rockman was saying about the Leo spargo match? Both cloud bairs connect with a character at low percent at ledge, but one of them leaves cloud at a disadvantage for landing Bair while the other wins the set. He's saying the tech changes what is potentially a game winning scenario for cloud into cloud being in disadvantage.
It's too big a difference in situation. One was Steve getting hit for getting out of ledge grab, taking the hit, and still countering for more damage. The other was someone crouching.
@BainesMkII I understand that, but why does that even matter? The Bair that hit Leo crouching is in the same proximity as Steve's ledge hop or just Steve short hopping at ledge, if you replace Leo with a Steve that has short hopped and buffered the tech they would still get hit by that same cloud Bair only cloud gets punished on hit instead
This would be too difficult or costly for tournament organizers to monitor early in tournament brackets. This is clearly a broken mechanic. Doing a wait and see approach is unfair to other competitors who have to experience playing against this mechanic in use. BTS had to shut down due to financial reasons. Any additional difficulties for running tournaments should be avoided. All in all I am for a Steve character ban.
Not doing a wait and see approach and just jumping straight for the ban... wow. So, you wanna explain to me how unfair this is to steve mains who put 1000s of hours into this char, and want nothing to do with this tech? No? Oh wait.. you really just want steve banned, and are using this hysteria to try and actually make it happen. This tech is bannable. There is quite literally no reason to not wait and see. Unless, you are the laziest TO ive ever seen, or if you really don't like steve, and don't give a shit about this tech. What makes me not worried abt this steve ban is how Japan dealt with it. They didn't ban the character. Since the smash community meatrides Japan so much, I can say this with 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000% confidence: steve will not get banned. Learn the mu
@@plusah1268 those players CHOSE to lab an already controversial character, and continued to do so after numerous community uproars to ban him. Steve mains can honestly get fucked. You used a different character before Steve's release, if they can't continue to take sets without Steve, then we know they were being carried in the first place. It's really that simple
as a TO a ban of a tech should never be about how easy it is to monitor, puff pound stalling is banned in Melee but there's almost no way to enforce it, it's about the social element. When it comes to online events (which I mainly host) it's comparatively easier to moderate, put in the rules that replays must be saved if you wish to request a mod check for a banned tech and have them show a TO/moderator the part where it happened. Even then that should rarely have to happen because once something is banned the risk factor & humiliation factor that comes with trying to do it without being caught is just too high for 99.9999% of players to even consider going for it.
WhyDo makes funny tweets once every few months, on what PLANET does that justify him adding nothing to this conversation at all for the entire hour long vod. Goddamn
this is basically the argument, Rock beats scissors, scissors beats paper and paper beats Rock but now with steve alone this is Rock can now sometimes also beat paper ?
I love how why do talks about how the fact that this only works at low percents makes it balanced. Low percent interactions are so fucking important in ultimate, so at the start of a game am I supposed to just not approach steve until I can get him high enough so all of my moves put him into tumble? Also if my knowledge is correct you can do this shit mid multi hit, so in the middle of a jab or multi hit Ariel you can just break out and hit someone? This needs to be banned.
Remember when they didn’t ban Bayo because they said it would hurt the competitive scene, and then she proceeded to kill smash 4? I remember. Let’s not make that same mistake again. Literally 2 smash games have been killed from people not wanting to put their foot down and end the jank.
Yeah, no one wanted to watch a full Bayonetta tourney and then the game died. If they want the Ultimate scene to continue as long as possible they’d ban Steve.
@@JavierPwns I’m honestly ok with Steve. He’s obviously the best character, but he’s not, at least IMO, as oppressive as bayo or MK from brawl. That is unless they leave this tech alone so people can “get good” like they keep doing. Hungrybox is right it doesn’t matter how hard the tech is to pull off, if the tech is crucial to a character, the players will find a way to consistently do it within a week or 2.
My biggest problem is Steve players accidentally inputting the tech, getting their opponent to react and call a PMLG on them, and then the Steve player saying “oh I didn’t mean to do it”… honestly, if there’s no way to prevent the tech from interfering with Steve, then don’t allow the character. It pains me to say this, but this is a tech that is bufferable, available frame 1, and *literally* breaks the rules of the game.
IMO it's not about power level or anything. It's just a basic mechanic of the game being broken, in a way that invalidates some characters. If the tech can't be banned somehow Steve has to go.
I think it's a bit of both? I find it easiest to think about in Smogon terms. He was already the top threat, but this is an unbelievable X-Factor that pushes him over the top. He can do everything now - handle all his checks, invalidate options at the choosing, and generally exploits the game. The OU Council would take this to a public vote, and a similar system might help here (High-level players, 60% needed). But I think Steve is off to Ubers.
@@austinfletchermusic It is definitely a bit of both. Shulk has a similar ability to the same extent, but since Shulk isn't as good originally, can't pull it off as much as Steve can, and doesn't get as much reward as Steve does, it probably isn't banworthy. Steve's definitely is, he's already too good and he get get so much reward off stray hits.
@@ericy1817 Shulk has had monado since 4 and it's been massively toned down. It's the most comparable but defintely not gamebreaking like this tech is.
@@ericy1817 Shulk is basically RBY OU Dragonite in the realm of S-Tiers. Now imagine if they gave an 95% accuracy PT move to the fastest and best character in the tier. That's Steve.
Whydo's take is garbage here. HBox is right, if there's a broken tech to a character, no matter how hard it is to pull off, the Steve players will find a way to consistently do it quickly. That's the problem.
I agree with the Kazuya take. There is only 1 guy who can pilot him to any actual results. No Tea doesn't count. Steve is about as common as ROB is now with better results to boot
@@2FadeMusic I actually don’t know why he said tea doesn’t count lmao, maybe cuz riddles actually somewhat solo mains kazuya as opposed to tea and acola who secondary him? I guess his point is that riddles can go through an entire tournament with JUST kazuya while tea and acola will go Steve/ Pac-Man 95% of the tournament and whip out the kazuya for like 2 matches or so.
"It doesn't let you escape hit stun, it is only a frame one escape. It wasn't even a true combo." Lol, imagine this being the best argument to not ban Steve. This character been begging for a ban. Do it.
There's no defense is why, there's really nothing Whydo can honestly say that would defend Steve. I don't blame him much because he's probably still in shock; this tech almost certainly guarantees a Steve ban meaning all a lot of the training he's done is no longer relevant. There's an unlikely string of hope that more broken tech could show up for a bunch other characters just before Steve is officially banned at major tournaments and that might be what he's holding out hope for.
Whydo is literally “ I am louder which means I’m right” Top players are telling him why this tech is a problem. When many of these top players really didn’t say too much out of the gate with many of the other tech I don’t know why that guy is on the call. He doesn’t even compete. Let the top players who actually compete (and TO’s) have an opinion on this and everybody else has to take a backseat. EDIT: and his argument was literally “play mythra”. This dude is garbage. That’s literally revolving the meta around steve
WhyDo's stance, as best I can interpret it after only about 20 minutes into the discussion, basically boils down to the difference of something being bad in theory versus it being bad in practice. He doesn't seem opposed to a ban ever happening, just not happening right away. Obviously the tech is busted in theory but we have no way of knowing how it'll work in practice. He's just saying it give it a month or so and see what ACTUALLY happens rather than immediately jump to the ban option. If in one or two months Steve results improve noticeably, that's when we should consider a ban - not right after the tech was found but never actually used.
@@reperfan4 and I hear that. It’s what I believe should happen myself, but all his points are absolutely flawed. That and allowing this tech to thrive just to see upsets and then eventually ban it anyways is an ass theory. If the tech is banned, all good. If it isn’t banned and the character starts jumping up in results, the character would be banned altogether. That’s the risk you run. Ban tech early or ban character late
I am not playing Mythra just to deal with Steve. I put so many hours into my favorite mains... I am NOT picking up anyone just to deal with ONE BROKEN CHARACTER. I SHOULDN'T have to pick up a top tier to deal with another, THAT'S when you know Steve needs a ban.
the way that WhyDo is literally fighting for his life over an advantage that no other chracter has and wuld carry him in sets is crazy sad and hilarious
@@trailertrash2147 nah whydo is cracked even without Steve. It's so weird seeing him be so against banning the tech. His views are usually pretty good.
@@ladellcalhoun8133 why would you run from a mine cart when you can just simply jump over it. If you play smash Foreal let me know I’ll add you and you can play Steve and I’ll show you exactly how to counter play him.
@@htc7446 And he still kinda fails at running away since steve can make himself fall out upair, meaning the steve starts out in an even harder advantage that sonic needs to overcome to run away, if a person made that their way to fight steve.
Alright, I want to share my thoughts as someone who hasn't played Smash in any form since grade school, but recently began watching competitive play on TH-cam. My perspective might be an unusual one, but I think it's a valuable one. Smash Ultimate is a pretty captivating game for normies like me, I like that it has a uniquely big roster in which so many characters have enough going for them to make a huge diversity of cool matchups in the hands of the right players. The game's thriving competitive diversity, as well as awesome TH-cam content creation (like hbox) has brought me to start caring about a game I don't play and never will. But Steve matches are not fun to watch. They never have been. Even to my completely untrained eyes, I can tell immediately how quickly a match-up against Steve sucks the life and fun out of a set. Steve doesn't do anything cool or flashy, and yet every move he has seems obscenely powerful for barely any reason. He slows down the game while demanding you approach while creating literal physical barriers to approaching, and he can seemingly combo just about anything into a kill off the top of the stage. He forces a reaction while also restricting his opponents options in a way that is baffling, miserably out of place in a Smash game. As much as people complain about Pacman, I can promise you that new viewers watching a competitive Pac-Man game are saying "wtf is going on, Pac-Man is weird but that kill was really cool looking." The same people watching Steve are saying "oh wow, I can follow pretty much everything Steve just did to kill combo and it still looked lame and cheap, this character seems too op for how uninteresting it is." Viewers, especially new viewers like me, want to see flashy combos. We want to see jawdropping offstage exchanges and fast, reactive gameplay. We want to see tense nailbiters where we aren't quite sure when or how the coup de grace blow is going to connect, we want to see people make it back onstage when we didnt think they possibly could. What we don't want to see is a Steve building a wall, standing still and mining, lazily waving his sword around in the air and throwing a minecart to punish his opponent for daring to even think about trying to interact with Steve. We don't want to see Steve build an L for the 100th time and invalidate every other character's hopes and dreams of getting back on stage. We want to see an awesome roster of diverse characters showing us what it looks like when they play their game their way. Instead, I continually find myself getting to watch what it looks like when that awesome roster is forced to bite their tongues and play Steve's game Steve's way. As far as I can tell the current debate is whether this tech makes Steve permabanned, or "just" makes him better unequivocally better than every other character. And I am here to tell you all: it really doesn't matter. Ban this stupid character. Steve's design and mechanics are what make this game a worse viewing experience, not his new tech. I am sick of seeing Steve win competitive upsets against players and characters that SEEM more skilled and more interesting to watch. Get him out. This thing doesn't belong in Smash for so many reasons.
Steve combos and setups aren't flashy? This sounds like someone is salty Steve has excellent tools. You need very high situational awareness to play Steve at high levels and also to play against him. A tech like this is hard to defend but there's nothing wrong with the character itself. It isn't impossible to beat Steve
@Dizzy Dial I'm really not here to comment on how Steve feels to play as or against, I made that as clear as I could. I even respect that, to long-time players, Steve probably feels like a very cerebral and strategic character to play as and against. I am here to comment on how, to someone largely brand new to competitive Smash, Steve matches are not as fun to watch as literally any other matchup in the game. He is not flashy and I stand by that. His main combos on air and ground are literally just the "minecraft sword wave." He occasionally swings a pickaxe with the same basic arm motion. His minecart is legitimately interesting to a first time viewer like me, but it's combination with block placements mostly expresses itself in gameplay as tool to slow the game down to the Steve player's pace by reducing his opponent's options in a very gimmicky way. His lava bucket, pickaxe spike, blocks, and that fire block he puts over his head make it seem like getting hit off stage is an unrecoverable death sentence against a good Steve for almost every other character, which make the most exciting part of pro play for me (off stage play) extremely one-note. When combined with the way he has a glide and the cart for recovery, he doesn't appear to actually have that many true weaknesses. If Steve was a C tier character, I would probably enjoy watching him on account of how weird his kit is in a platform fighting game. As an S+ tier, he just carves out a huge corner of the entire meta for a game with such a gigantic roster for himself. So, am I salty about Steve? I guess so. But I am also literally about as uninvested in Smash as a competitive ultimate viewer can possibly be. I don't play the game and I am new to the community. I fundamentally dont respect the time and effort Steve players have put into their character. So what exactly does it mean for me to be salty about Steve? It means that I would be enjoying my time watching tournaments more if I didn't see as much Steve. If you guys are really concerned about the competitive health of your game, I suggest you take my opinion for exactly what it is: not an informed opinion, but an opinion from the exact type of person you might have recently drawn into the viewerbase of competitive Smash because of people like Hbox making good TH-cam algorithm content. And the type of person you should probably be concerned with retaining the attention of.
A character being lame isn't a good reason for a ban. A ton of characters who bring their own lame mechanics to the game or are overtuned in certain areas that makes them boring to watch/fight. By that logic we would ban like 30 characters.
this tech single handed turn the Steve - Joker Matchup -2 for Joker. He confirms all his kills off of Multihits. With the tech left legal he can only reliably kill with back air and it's really easy to avoid 1 move the entire game.
I legit don’t get to play the game anymore, all we can do is hope to land a fair one. And hope it sends into tumble, and even then how would I know if he just pulls out some other random janky thing to stop that as well?
@@cyrrus_lite2796 Oh boohoo top 3 character can't do his flowchart combos anymore(I'm joking) unironically though it's pretty bad that a character's whole meta game is shut down by one tech
@@GnWVaporing I also play Marth and hero, but dude, I agree with you, the fact that so many characters are just negated… Oh mother of Pearl I feel bad for pit players
My favorite comment is at 1:07:46 If Steve players have to play poorly to stop the character from being banned then the character wouldnt be a problem Y’all gotta grow up😂
Literally banning the tech is close to impossible. Even IF the tech is IMPOSSIBLE to do on accident(which I'm positive there will be accidents once and awhile down the road)the problem is monitoring these things. This isn't an easy tech to see. Some are obvious;Cancelling a spike or something that should have knocked back Steve super far away, avoiding true combos, and the little white box that shows up when Steve can't place a block is a tell-tale sign. However, avoiding a true combos can come from other factors(SDI, positioning, or mistiming)and lots of characters/moves can straight up cover up the little white box making it harder to find out if Steve did the tech(in one of the twitter clips bowser's nair and mario's upair I believe did this). This means that whenever someone claims that a Steve player is using the tech a mod(or multiple mods)have to find the match, then find the game, then get the replay, then find the moment where they used the tech, then confirm or deny if the tech was done. Since this is Hbox's channel let's take Coinbox for instance. Coinbox is a HUGE, probably the biggest, online tournament. It's free to enter but has a big payout. This is the prime environment for Steve players to take advantage of their tech. There are hundreds of players that participate in Coinbox. It's *PHYSICALLY* impossible to observe EVERY SINGLE match. There are a lot of Steve players as well. Keeping an eye on all of them is still very difficult and is also unfair for higher level and more honest Steve players. On top of this there are people that can straight up ACCUSE a Steve player for using the tech when they never did. They just need the right situation to do so(which players can manipulate). On the other side, Steve will become like Bayonetta players in Smash 4. Bayonetta wasn't banned at the end of Smash 4. The reason was becuase people used her sparingly. Even when they DID use her, they tried to keep it lowkey, and avoided certain combos routes and witch time. I have no doubt that Steve players can and will do the same with this tech in order to keep it(or at least keep their character available). This is just Coinbox btw. What about smaller online tournaments with less mods and less recognition? How about offline? Will locals need people to walk around to make sure the Steve's are up to no good? They'll have to observe and evaluate any replays if someone claims that a Steve DID in fact do the tech. This takes away time and energy from them. What about majors? God forbid the super majors...Long story short, banning the tech causes way too much speculation and issues. It can also cause divides within the community and a negative stigma. This game has no more updates coming to it. Don't let this be another smash 4. Smash 4 ended on a very sour note thanks to people reluctance for banning Bayo, we can't repeat the same mistake. Smash Ultimate was a fun rollercoaster of emotions and anticipation, don't let that be taken away by one singular character. There's over 80 characters in this game. Almost all of them can perform very well, something unique among Smash's history with tier lists and balance. Just ban Steve. Nothing more, nothing less.
Though before banning him, I would suggest to run a few locals to truly test how broken this tech is and if it lets Steve gets away from everything easily, Yeah, ban him right then.
Yeah they want a bayo or mk situation where its not being a better player but playing a better character. Obviously don’t care for the future of the game and more for their own results.
Bayo may have broken in smash 4 , but at least they weren't actively breaking the game. This is no longer about banning Steve this about keeping smash ultimate from suffering the same fate as 4
I hated this discussion because of how heavily biased it was in terms of Steve representation. Outside of Hbox and GimR all of the members are Steve mains. Even with the diversity of opinion among the Steve mains (e.g. DDee and Rockman wanting a tech ban and WhyDo not wanting a ban at all) they needed more non-Steve reps in the conversation. DDee and Rockman are more moderates on this issue whereas WhyDo is more of a strong opposition to a ban. GimR and Hbox are more moderate voices as well. They needed someone with WhyDo’s energy on the opposing side in favor of the ban imo. I’ll give them credit for exploring varying angles of the issue with nuance, but I don’t think there was enough pushback on certain points made as a result of the demographics.
The entire point was to talk to Steve mains, you missed the point of the video. Every single other conversation on this issue is composed of non Steve players. Hbox explains at the start of the video why he's talking to Steve players
@@LitCactus I understand wanting to get their expertise on the character to see what their informed opinion is on it. But if you’re going to have a discussion about a decision which affects the entire rest of the playerbase it doesn’t make sense to not hear substantial pushback. At that point you’re weighing the opinion of Steve mains on this issue astronomically higher than the rest of the community.
The people in chat saying "Don't ban Steve just cope" are the reasons that Steve players are so hated. Same losers who told us Shantae fans to kill ourselves when she got deconfirmed! I will never let those Steve players who told us that live that down! They went too far and got away with it!
You can’t ban the tech without banning the character. People won’t know the tech is happening to them in tourney unless they know about the tech and unless they’re going to somehow magically monitor every single match banning the tech won’t be feasible. Plus banning Steve will be better for the overall longterm viewership of Smash Ultimate.
As they brought up a few times in this session, chances are matches will be streamed at the point where it matters (top 64 at majors and such), so match reviews are feasible. Also, this same argument happened in Melee when they first banned wobbling, but that ban has proven to be very effective over time
@@kalticcodes Again, someone that does not know about the tech will not know it is happening to them. Take a 256 or 512 player tourney. Only top 128 or top 64 will be streamedZ It’s pretty friggin’ obvious when you’re getting wobbled in Melee. Apples to Oranges.
@@JavierPwns I agree. Other banned techs such as Scrooging and Infinite Dimensional Cape were extremely easy to spot, hence very easy techniques to monitor after a ban. That's the commonality between all of these banned techniques. The Steve Tech, however, is not only broken, but *difficult* to spot.
its more complicated to input than just "press b when you are getting hit". theres a reason we havent ever seen this happen before in 2 years of tournaments, you have to purposefully do it
@@judahdeitrich2482 most tech is found by ‘accident’ (in a match or by labbing), so ppl not discovering this for two years is probably due to ppl not going to press block in disadvantage or ppl assuming Steve is just doing dumb Steve things lol idk.
Yeah, totally, and that's going to be what every Steve main is going to say whenever they are called out for it. If it was deliberate, then you would still need to have to's to watch the replay i's a bad idea to keep this legal.
"It can't be done by accident because it took 2 years to get discovered" So many issues with this logic. Exploits are 99% of the time discovered by accident and it can happen later on a game's cycle or early. He is too stubborn to just agree to a character ban when this character is p2w.
Whydo is defending something that has no counterplay and no downsides if it doesn't work because "maybe we'll find counter play one day". How about this, ban steve (or the tech at least) tell you figure out if it has a counter play or not. Why ruin several tournaments to FINDOUT if it has counterplay or not to ban it later onj nayways when it doesnt. Thats some fucking dumb logic to say it doesnt need to be banned because it MIGHT have counter play we haven't figured out when we can just ban it now and see if counterplay is made and unban it after.
I get WhyDo is the main guy defending the tech so he legitimately should get more time but he needs to stop talking when he's basically just repeating a point good lord
Honestly Steve players need to be on mute for this conversation. The amount of cope is insane. We're talking about the undisputed best Character in the game rn. This isnt a knee jerk reaction anymore. This is like the 8th time this character has been called out for a ban. It stopped being knee jerk after the 3rd time. His neutral is already wild strong, disadvantage basically nonexistent, he can infinite ledge stall and maintain all his resources and even get those resources back, invalidate most recoveries without even being close to danger, freestyle TODs out the ass, incredible frame data that are also kill options, AND NOW we discover he has a game breaking exploit. THIS IS ONLY THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG! We already have video evidence of Steve being able to tech off his own blocks at 999% after a Kazuya fsmash AND input this tech for a reversal. Steve can 0toD you with a jab combo. And fucking jab combo. A Steve player need only pull this input off ONCE and has the opportunity to kill you for it at ANY PERCENT. Not to mention it cab invalidate his opponents advantage state AT ANY POINT, meaning every fight with a Steve is now only neutral interactions...where Steve excels and can kill you off one neutral win. How is this still a conversation. OFCOURSE Steve plays don't want the character banned, he's responsible for almost 100% of their success in ultimate. Ban the character, if Acola and Onin can't continue to win sets without this character, it just proves they were were being hard carried in the first place.
DDee is a steve player though and agreed it should be banned. Makes no sense to ban people who play and know the most about the character from talking about banning it or a specific tech. WhyDo clearly coping tho
@2Fade Ddee wants to ban the tech not the character. I think the character has cause too many problems as is and should just be rid of. This is like the 8th time a discussion about banning this character has started up, each time it's something crazier than the last lmfao Steve players have their opinions and they might even agree with me but they don't want to lose their character at the end of the day, I don't like that bias.
Hear me out: The only time we allow Steve is in a ditto. If your opponent doesn’t agree to a Steve ditto, you can’t play Steve Edit: thanks for all the compliments🤗🤗🤗
For real. This is such a good idea for any banned characters. Imagine how hype these hated characters would suddenly become if they were only pulled out once in a long while for a mirror match.
Onin saying ban Steve??? Onin, good brother, ive said some harsh things to you in the past (no death threats but still), for which i sincerely apologize. Stay strong, brother
Onin has acknowledged for a long time that his character is busted and carries. He has publicly said he'd be nowhere near the same in results without Steve. I like the guy and didn't mind him winning stuff with Steve but being able to do this tech is crazy and there's no defense for it lol
How much more does Steve actually need before something is done? It’s not knee jerk any more, he has too much, he’s proven to be broken, and he can carry bad players. What more do we need?
A character carrying “bad” players is not enough to ban it. This is definitely bannable, the question is wether the character or the tech, and though I never agreed on banning the character before, I see the point where this is really hard to enforce and ultimately hurts the community
The only reason he's still in, is that he takes some effort to learn. But AFTER you spend the time learning him. he takes EVEN MORE time for anyone to learn to play against.
Whydo is coping like fucking mad here. And no one can follow Rockman's Mkleo vs Spargo analogy due to MK being crouched on ledge instead of jumping up - the important part were clouds inputs and % there, just imagine it was Steve doing the tech instead of Byleth being crouched lol
Steve should've been banned. Nobody in the game can modify the map on the fly, get his jumps back from blocks, and have a moving hitbox that lasts so long, has armor, and grabs you even after the initial frames. Dont kid yourself, character has been broken this list is not all inclusive.
With the way the smash community is headed we all need to be incredibly careful with how we handle these types of things from here on out. We are in uncharted territory, and the last thing we need is further division amongst the community that is so struggling to maintain its footing.
Also, I've been around the fgc for a while now and my view in the argument of "don't ban it yet because it's hard." Just because it's hard doesn't make it okay. There's a sleu of cursed unblockable setups in games like guilty gear plus R and they are absolutely banned. The problem with Steve's is that smash is such a cluttered game that it's so incredibly difficult to spot the tech as opposed to some sort of "cursed setups."
Nairo said on stream that a Steve ban wouldn’t be that bad because he isn’t 60 percent of tournament entries. Banning characters like meta knight in brawl would have hurt the game because a lot of players stopped showing up due to how many meta knight players there were.
@@ssensei34 yeah and it was a similar situation with Bayonetta. The topic of banning usually arises when a games entire meta is centralized around countering one specific character or tactic
Personally, this should just be a banned character until the tech is patched or some community mod fixes it. It's not something that can easily be monitored, it's something that creates too much value in playing steve that other characters simply cannot offer, and in addition steve is ALREADY a top tier character with unique options and a metric f load of versatility. Steve himself shouldn't be banned but the sheer power of this tech and the extreme difficulty of preventative measures just warrants a cooldown period while more permanent solutions are being worked on.
There’s 2 different types of ‘broken’ in my eyes. One kind of broken is a character which is just way too powerful, but still follows the rules of the game. Pythra for example. The other kind of broken is “literally says fuck you to basic game mechanics because of glitches”. That’s Steve.
Steve was already busted. It took almost 2 years to find this technique, it is very plausible that others exist considering the half cooked nature of steve as a smash character. Steve should be banned, because he is a frustrating character that has busted moves and, in the case of the PMLG, broken move.
I’m sorry, but WhyDo was so irritating in this video. He barely contributed to the conversation, had very weak arguments and constantly interrupted people, loudly talking over them. It just felt extremely rude to the others in the group call that had all gathered together to discuss a serious issue and plan on a decision that will undoubtedly change a lot about competitive Smash.
People are going to try to use this no matter what. Not ever match or every tournament perhaps but it will be used. Maybe if start just banning people early who you catch using it early on it will work but that’s another whole thing to deal with
Do you wait for it to ruin tournaments or do you let people figure it out before you let it into tournament. If you think it is broken ban Steve and if later its found to be super niche let him back in. rather ban a character and let Steve mains play their off then have Steve ruin a tournament for everyone.
As an online TO. You can't just ban the tech, it's too hard to moderate. Either ban the character or do nothing. Looks like all the Steve's think this tech is unfair soooooo..🤔
bruh whydo's logic is actually giving me an aneurism like at 1:13:44 it's what the tech does in COMBINATION with steve's kit, you can't just act like they're completely separate things. It's not that steve should be banned if the tech didn’t exist, it's not that a character having that tech should be an automatic ban. Combining the two absolutely is more than the sum of it's parts ffs... I think steve should be banned regardless but I can accept if someone makes real arguments like a strong belief in the purity of the fighting game, whatever, but this stupid nonsense is so frustrating to hear. Seriously, this guy runs a tournament called "bad things happening to good people", why tf is his opinion being considered for smash as a whole
Seriously though, if Steve (or the tech AT LEAST) isn't banned at this rate, I'm going to quit comp Smash, heavily boycott the competitive scene, and laugh as the scene dies like Sm4sh. This has gotten too far. I used to be a heavy "Don't ban Steve" guy, but I can't defend this; I don't want to defend this; I'd hate myself if I defended this! The number of hours I've spent on this game, only to see Steve mains suddenly get a broken advantage like this? Heck, no! CANCELING TUMBLE ANIMATIONS AT FRAME *1!* *FREAKING FRAME 1!* There is no defending this tech and being right. If Nintendo doesn't patch the tech (obviously likely they'll ignore this tech), then we'll just ban the character. If Nintendo still doesn't patch it out, leave Steve banned. This tech is far too hard to monitor as a TO., WAY too annoying to see as a player (who is facing the Steves), and waaaay to crazy for us viewers to handle. Imagine watching your favorite players all get beat by a random Steve main abusing this tech. THIS is what anyone can learn and do in like a week or less. It's not like the player has to train for years to do this tech. You learn this easily and get results easily. Steve players are already online using this tech in Elite Smash. Yeah, I'm dropping Ultimate if it becomes overrun with Steves.
I'm getting tired of the "it doesn't work if it sends into tumble" argument when there are multiple clips that disprove that and show Steve cancelling the hitstun on strong spikes like Yoshi's fair and even Ganon's dair (at mid %s, too) that would absolutely cause tumble. Maybe spikes are different somehow?
@@figlego 💀 alright, before you ratio me, let me explain something. new exploits are additions to a character's moveset, and while ganon's moves are admittedly pretty good, his attributes are not very good at all. However, for Steve, his moves at can string together in such a way that it's just plainly incredible. add the tech/exploit on to that incredible moveset, and its just an overload. however, we shouldn't be irrational and immediately ban him. Either give this abomination we call Steve time to fester to discover the potential of the tech, or we panic, throw caution to the wind, and dust off the ban hammer. your choice, smash community.
Before the tech has been extensively explored, that's already basically free neutral punishes each life once players get good using it. Seems banworthy just to save players having to become skilled with the tech just for the inevitable ban to drop later.
All opinions and thoughts are 100% valid, watching this along with other top players thoughts really widens the perspective of this surprising find. Banning a character in a fighting game is a last resort option and it can hurt a community but it can also make a community grow. Honestly I couldn't give an answer on my thoughts as of this moment, I can only hope that things somehow work out in the end. But mad respect to the amazing players that discussed this matter along with Hungrybox, these guys really know how to take this problem into a careful discussion.
ALSO 2nd comment incoming, That clip at 29:18 just solidifies this character needs to go, all that speculation, imagine that was the end of a set in bracket. You cant tell if he did or didnt use it OR if it was even intentional. Telling me "the tech is too hard so it shouldnt be banned" Like we dont have people who have mastered Icies desync, or people who mastered Kazuyas whole kit, or people who use Ryu and Kens L/H input consistently and beautifully. This tech will be EVERYWHERE and it is 100% unfair, YES you can COUNTER the tech....But only if you know steves going for it. Whats to stop him from doing it once off ledge, and then next time in the same situation decides to just ledge hop and minecart? The counters are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT and UNREACTABLE. WhyDo embarrassed himself here.
If this tech was found with a mid character like Pit, everything would be ok. The fact is, this is on the character who is already best Character in the game. Already deemed broken by so many. For so many of us, this is just the cherry on top. Banning Steve is the most logical option, since banning a tech is too hard now.
interesting thoughts, thanks hbox. i don't want either steve or the tech to be banned, but it's an unhealthy addiction to the op, so for balance's sake, i'll go with whatever the TOs decide on.
WhyDo is so hurt over this lmao everything he says has an argument to it. It’s like he’s trying to tell himself the tech isn’t that bad to people by saying it’s not that bad
If little Mac or Ganon had this tech it wouldn't be a big deal. The most op character in the game has it so that character should be banned. Not hard at all. Many people hate Steve and instead getting better than your opponent you can just use Steve and do the same option over and over until it works. Ban Steve.
This is the easiest reason to ban Steve. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the biggest advocates are just people who really like playing the character. This technique is borderline impossible to monitor. Literally no one is going to commit time as a moderator to closely monitor this in every low percent interaction in every Steve game so if the tech is ban worthy so is the character. No way around it unless someone mods the game for competitive play which will never happen with Nintendo’s legal team breathing down the neck of tourney organizers
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I agree this shit is laughably OP but I'm still in awe of the fact that Steve ended up being the character to be the "one." It's almost poetic
Of course it's steve. Who else is better fit to play the role of god rather than god itself?
Yep, its way too perfect for the main character of Minecraft to be the one
It has too many* special gimmicks, it's understandable that the devs missed a lot of shit (still ban him tho)
My favorite game is minecraft so im very happy its him. Hate fighting against good steves tho lol
@@Pedro-ho2xj bloxist
I find it hilarious that the community knows how little Nintendo cares that they don’t skip a beat before trying to solve it themselves. Seriously, any other game company would patch this out in a couple days
duh, cuz nintendo told us they would not patch it before sora
Smash has been in shambles since they spam added broken pay to win characters.
Yep. Dan had an infinite in Street Fighter V and it was patched within like a week.
@@thegentlexylophone lol that’s cap. The infinite was around for months before it got patched.
@@thegentlexylophone And the patch was a cool change that still made it technically possible but gave you a better version of a move needed with rng that would be better in any situation but the infinite. Plus it had possible plot significance. Smash does put anything close to that into the post-creation process.
WhyDo's argument of "It's hard to do" isn't valid lol. Who cares if it's hard to do. Half of the combos that top players regularly use in tournament are "hard to do". The difficulty isn't a factor. People will master it whether it's easy or difficult. I'm imagining someone with insane consistency and skill like Acola putting this into practice and it's nuts.
Dead ass like if you’re good enough with your main what’s stopping you from learning specific timings and inputs that no other characters have. Jokers drag downs, all of the shotos inputs especially kazuya, shulks monado use etc. Just because it’s hard won’t mean people won’t go to training mode to get it down.
And its fucking ez
I mean.... Half of Melee's tech is "hard to do" Hell, to a brand new player short hops and fastfalling is "hard to do" until it's not... It's just something you skill up and learn to do easily.
A friend of mine literally did it on accident today
@@Ithaca-vv5dy The highest skill players are always pushing the boundaries of what is possible. Hard to input is essentially a non-factor when you get to the top players at majors unless your definition of ‘hard to input’ is “something that was theoretically shown in a TAS but is borderline impossible for human fingers to do”
Everything whydo said convinced me even more that the character should be banned
so much copium, he says the downside to a frame 1 tech is "losing time" when you can punish a move with it while the opponent is still in end lag. every Steve main sounds so unreasonable, they're scared because of how hard they're carried.
@@dilbert7120 He was more based when he mained Mii Brawler.
whydo is trying to do whatever he can to keep the character legal, he's enough of a labber and competitive player to know how broken it actually is, he's just downplaying it so he doesn't lose a main
Coming from melee this is the easiest ban in existence. Crouch cancel is the most powerful defensive tech in the game. Everyone knows it's broken, but every character has access to it so its part of the game. This is a superpowered crouch cancel that works in the air -- usually supposed to be a worse defensive position than on the ground, since you now have access to aerials which are excellent. This is on top of Steve being toxic, polarizing, centralizing, and overly defensive. It's like if Melee Puff had Yoshi's parry on every one of her jumps AND 20% of the playerbase used her. And she could refresh her jumps by placing blocks midair.
THANK YOU
based take
Lol crouch cancel isn’t the most powerful defensive tech imo. it’s really strong but shielding is def the best defense option. Character specific would be Yoshi’s parry. Imo Steve shouldn’t be banned. He’s def the best character in the game but counterplay still exists, unlike brawl Metaknight and Smash Bayo.
@@fullsend4976 Half the cast has no counterplay, block alone destroys so many characters' recoveries and that's not even counting anvil or TNT being insanely strong edgeguarding/trapping moves. Anvil is basically Villager f-smash as an aerial that Steve can smash attack on top of and TNT is similarly deadly to Snake's C4.
DDee being so young and still being aware that people older than him act like literal children and sheep says a lot about this community
It says a lot about the state of education.
DDee def the smartest person in the room, which doesnt say much cause it's a room full of steve and puff mains.
It’s not a community issue, this is just how people are.
You’re right, it really says a-
Almost like people that play children's games as adults are still children
I strongly dislike WhyDo's arguement about it being something we've seen before. This tech is the first of its kind from the character because this is an insanely powerful *defensive* tech rather than a setup to just string together combos or kill confirm like NILs are, it feels like trying to compare apples to oranges. A defensive tech on a character like steve is dozens of times stronger than an offensive one, and this damn near the best character specific tech in smash history.
There's some crazy Ness melee tech that might be better, it gives a lingering hitbox on the character and something else I don't remember
Whydo is coping hard that he's about to lose Steve. I never like to insult players but you can tell he's not being honest with himself about this. Anyone can tell this tech is utterly broken.
@@Bladieblah yoyo glitch is really bad and requires a super specific setup (you need to connect with the first frame of the charging hitbox ONLY, and then you need to release it immedeately and no other part of ness's up or down smash can connect or will not get it)
it is super difficult, for what most of the time will just amount to a single free hit
Sure it's funny, when you get a PK thunder jacket or a dair jacket, but not really competitively viable, and it doesn't negate any weaknesses the character has or wins mathups on its own
@@uponeric36 is Why Do a Steve main
@@SoggyWafflesXp Yeah, he sadly moved away from mii brawler to steve
Dude defending Steve argues like a child. And deedee is one, yet argues infinitely better.
Around 50:00, the just "SDI the combo's" is exactly what people said about smash 4 Bayo. All her shit was SDI'able, ESAM was telling everyone to SDI lol. Yet now everyone agrees smash 4 bayo should have been banned despite SDI counterplay being available
Soyjack ESAM was wrong about SDI’ing Bayo combos, SDI hardly does shit in 4 and Ultimate, this isn’t melee.
@@JavierPwns He literally showed it in training mode, there is SDI counterplay to smash 4 Bayo. It just goes to show that it's not realistic to perform cause we all know how that went
My biggest issue with the tech isn't necessarily that if done correctly it's a frame 1 escape option. It's that now wiff punishing Steve's airiels is now not something you can even attempt to do without getting hit for it. I'm ok with Steve's safe moves being safe, but now the only thing you can do is punish his landings while they are in the end lag of the moves on the ground, if they even choose to land. For example if they double nair, then you could wiff punish once they land, but that requires a burst option read on a move that has an almost unreactable amound of startup/endlag(15 frames, fastest reaction times are around 13 frames), but a lot of the cast don't have a quick enough option to reactively punish that. My math and reasoning could be wrong, and im ok with tournaments running the tech just so the community might have a chance to figure out more counterplay, but if there isn't a true counterplay, then ban the tech for sure.
Basically don't even think about air to airing Steve with any move other than airials that are incredibly strong and send into tumble at low percent, which some of the cast just don't have. You could use projectiles to get his percent so that moves send into tumble as well, but Steve can also build a wall to force you to approach from the air on stages such as ps2 unless you want him to mine resources for free.
effectively air invincibility
Exactly. A character could have this tech and not be bannable, but when steve already covers so many options simultaneously and then you add this insane tech on top of it it's like the bag of bricks that broke the camel's back. He has too much unique bs and too good frame data and too good combos for you to be getting randomly punished for hitting him.
Even from the most optimistic perspective, steve can control a lot of scenarios but often leaves one way to approach him. This covers a lot of those 'one option's.
This is the dead hard/bt problem with dbd you have to treat every player (in this case, a sub for steve) that they have it (can use the tech) and what are you supposed to do? You literally have nothing against it but a hard read and that's it.
As a Byleth player who used to really like this match up… Like… I can’t pick Byleth anymore. Nothing works now and there’s nothing I can do about it.
Yes only things that work against it are projectiles, Aldo as a byleth main we can't kill him early with cheese as he just does the block back.
have you played someone doing this tech?
I thought this was only in lab vids, are players are doing this and dominating in online with it already!?
L
@@nullvoid3545 Yes, many Steves are online abusing this tech
@@Quinnsula5 As a Byleth, what am I left with for Neutral? Only Sweetspot Fair/Bair? Cuz Sourspot doesn’t tumble at low%. Up-Smash doesn’t work nor does Up-B nor does Rising Nair… so there goes ALL of my OFS options.
This sucks.
I think with how shaky the smash tournament scene is and esports is in general, they need to avoid anything thatll trip up the smoothness of tournaments for a while. Banning this tech will put an unnecessary strain on TOs and the people running tournaments. Either ban the character or not but dont just ban a tech
ban steve
Unfortunately, it needs performance 8jbirder to be banned. Like wobbling or ledge camp
Nah it worked with wobbling. Imo ban the tech
@@fullsend4976 wobbling is obvious this isn't
@@a_little_flame589I don't think there has been a tournament so far in which a Steve used pmlg
Imma say it: the "hard to do" argument literally cannot exist in a world of competitive mindset. Let's not forget who got second in this recent Genesis
i like what someone said in chat. "The thing with Steve tech is that the player KNOWS it's an option, so whether it happens or not it's gonna affect your gameplan and the way you approach because the MENACE of it happening exists"
DDee being the most mature & reasonable person on call is hilarious 😂
prodigy in and out of the game
An absolute legend
Not really. Steve needs to be banned because this tech cannot be monitored.
He was very biased and calling people that think Steve is a problem sheep. I'm not really seeing what so mature about that. Hbox was being nice about it and handled it very well though, made sure he felt welcome and supported despite being the youngest
I didnt like his argument about how 'NO ONE WILL USE THE TECH ANYWAY' bc hbox said theyd keep an eye on it for the next coinbox. of course all the steve mains will be on guard and wont do it every chance they get but we need to think about this in the long run.
24:54 I don't like how everything seems to be a joke for WhyDo. What he's basically saying is that we should allow a literal who beat the best in the world before we do anything about this tech. The thing is, there's money on the line. He's asking to let players get robbed by Steve's bs for a while just for "le memes".
I'ma keep it a buck, even if the tech is banned top players will have to be on their toes worrying about this tech coming out and telling a moderator/TO to take a look, it *will* take focus from the opponent of Steve to have this worry about having to notice something being off in a game/set, at least in the beginning until Steve just forget about it because it was in fact banned and not usable.
No impartial bans that’ll cause too much hassle for TOs to deal with. Just ban Steve.
Why did nobody understand what rockman was saying about the Leo spargo match? Both cloud bairs connect with a character at low percent at ledge, but one of them leaves cloud at a disadvantage for landing Bair while the other wins the set. He's saying the tech changes what is potentially a game winning scenario for cloud into cloud being in disadvantage.
It's too big a difference in situation. One was Steve getting hit for getting out of ledge grab, taking the hit, and still countering for more damage. The other was someone crouching.
@BainesMkII I understand that, but why does that even matter? The Bair that hit Leo crouching is in the same proximity as Steve's ledge hop or just Steve short hopping at ledge, if you replace Leo with a Steve that has short hopped and buffered the tech they would still get hit by that same cloud Bair only cloud gets punished on hit instead
This would be too difficult or costly for tournament organizers to monitor early in tournament brackets. This is clearly a broken mechanic. Doing a wait and see approach is unfair to other competitors who have to experience playing against this mechanic in use. BTS had to shut down due to financial reasons. Any additional difficulties for running tournaments should be avoided. All in all I am for a Steve character ban.
perfectly said
Not doing a wait and see approach and just jumping straight for the ban... wow. So, you wanna explain to me how unfair this is to steve mains who put 1000s of hours into this char, and want nothing to do with this tech? No? Oh wait.. you really just want steve banned, and are using this hysteria to try and actually make it happen. This tech is bannable. There is quite literally no reason to not wait and see. Unless, you are the laziest TO ive ever seen, or if you really don't like steve, and don't give a shit about this tech. What makes me not worried abt this steve ban is how Japan dealt with it. They didn't ban the character. Since the smash community meatrides Japan so much, I can say this with 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000% confidence: steve will not get banned. Learn the mu
@@plusah1268 those players CHOSE to lab an already controversial character, and continued to do so after numerous community uproars to ban him. Steve mains can honestly get fucked. You used a different character before Steve's release, if they can't continue to take sets without Steve, then we know they were being carried in the first place. It's really that simple
as a TO a ban of a tech should never be about how easy it is to monitor, puff pound stalling is banned in Melee but there's almost no way to enforce it, it's about the social element.
When it comes to online events (which I mainly host) it's comparatively easier to moderate, put in the rules that replays must be saved if you wish to request a mod check for a banned tech and have them show a TO/moderator the part where it happened.
Even then that should rarely have to happen because once something is banned the risk factor & humiliation factor that comes with trying to do it without being caught is just too high for 99.9999% of players to even consider going for it.
@@joetatos8687 bro really just said that steve mains (who are mostly minors) should get fucked 🤨
WhyDo makes funny tweets once every few months, on what PLANET does that justify him adding nothing to this conversation at all for the entire hour long vod. Goddamn
i dont watch ultimate but id trust the melee funny twitter people to be on talks like this (ambisinister, dark genex, chroma)
@@swank8508 100% lmao
Tbf, WhyDo is also a competitive player. Doesn’t make his takes any less nonsensical though
He isn't funny. He's corny asf
this is basically the argument,
Rock beats scissors, scissors beats paper and paper beats Rock but now with steve alone this is Rock can now sometimes also beat paper ?
Gun
@@marlinmurrell620 Steve out here watching everyone play RPS and he spends a few minutes at the crafting table and walks up with a fucking bazooka
I love how why do talks about how the fact that this only works at low percents makes it balanced. Low percent interactions are so fucking important in ultimate, so at the start of a game am I supposed to just not approach steve until I can get him high enough so all of my moves put him into tumble? Also if my knowledge is correct you can do this shit mid multi hit, so in the middle of a jab or multi hit Ariel you can just break out and hit someone? This needs to be banned.
Exactly. I can't stand defending this tech. At first I was a "Don't ban Steve" guy, but now? Heck nah. Ban the tech or the character.
He's so biased it's unbeliavable no one called him out.
@@BakingSoda4U WhyDoIExist is just a nobody these days.
No, not mid multi hit. You can set it up for the first hit only. And true combos are still true, basically it's luigi down B on steroid
@@mordeymay3739 I miss Item Breakers with the funny Mii Brawler Guy. Steve is truly a drug that changes people.
Remember when they didn’t ban Bayo because they said it would hurt the competitive scene, and then she proceeded to kill smash 4? I remember. Let’s not make that same mistake again. Literally 2 smash games have been killed from people not wanting to put their foot down and end the jank.
Yeah, no one wanted to watch a full Bayonetta tourney and then the game died. If they want the Ultimate scene to continue as long as possible they’d ban Steve.
@@JavierPwns I’m honestly ok with Steve. He’s obviously the best character, but he’s not, at least IMO, as oppressive as bayo or MK from brawl. That is unless they leave this tech alone so people can “get good” like they keep doing. Hungrybox is right it doesn’t matter how hard the tech is to pull off, if the tech is crucial to a character, the players will find a way to consistently do it within a week or 2.
Steve without this hitstun cancelling is very very good, but definitely doesn't change the rules of the game the same way MK or bayo did.
@@rhysjones1108 No one likes playing against him and no one likes watching him outside of steve players themselves
@@lordsneek2660 wrong on both I like watching, and I like fighting them with my mains. Not liking something isn’t grounds for banning.
Whydo has absolutely no argument its ridiculous fr
his argument is that it's hard as if that's stopped Kazuya players lol
My biggest problem is Steve players accidentally inputting the tech, getting their opponent to react and call a PMLG on them, and then the Steve player saying “oh I didn’t mean to do it”… honestly, if there’s no way to prevent the tech from interfering with Steve, then don’t allow the character. It pains me to say this, but this is a tech that is bufferable, available frame 1, and *literally* breaks the rules of the game.
I don't wanna hear anyone say this tech is too difficult to perform consistently when aMSa has optimized Yoshi's parry which has a 2 frame window.
Then why isn’t Yoshi banned with that logic? You just proved your argument wrong.
@@Percussion97-ke7lg I didn't say anything about a ban.
IMO it's not about power level or anything. It's just a basic mechanic of the game being broken, in a way that invalidates some characters. If the tech can't be banned somehow Steve has to go.
I think it's a bit of both?
I find it easiest to think about in Smogon terms. He was already the top threat, but this is an unbelievable X-Factor that pushes him over the top.
He can do everything now - handle all his checks, invalidate options at the choosing, and generally exploits the game.
The OU Council would take this to a public vote, and a similar system might help here (High-level players, 60% needed). But I think Steve is off to Ubers.
@@austinfletchermusic It is definitely a bit of both. Shulk has a similar ability to the same extent, but since Shulk isn't as good originally, can't pull it off as much as Steve can, and doesn't get as much reward as Steve does, it probably isn't banworthy. Steve's definitely is, he's already too good and he get get so much reward off stray hits.
@@ericy1817 Shulk has had monado since 4 and it's been massively toned down. It's the most comparable but defintely not gamebreaking like this tech is.
@@ericy1817 Shulk is basically RBY OU Dragonite in the realm of S-Tiers. Now imagine if they gave an 95% accuracy PT move to the fastest and best character in the tier. That's Steve.
@@ericy1817 Shield art isn't even close. He can't move for shit or deal damage or knockback, it's not similar at all
Whydo's take is garbage here. HBox is right, if there's a broken tech to a character, no matter how hard it is to pull off, the Steve players will find a way to consistently do it quickly. That's the problem.
I agree with the Kazuya take. There is only 1 guy who can pilot him to any actual results. No Tea doesn't count. Steve is about as common as ROB is now with better results to boot
When was the kazuya take?
Why doesnt tea count? 🤨 Or acola for that matter. They’ve both piloted kazuya to several top placements in japan
@@2FadeMusic I actually don’t know why he said tea doesn’t count lmao, maybe cuz riddles actually somewhat solo mains kazuya as opposed to tea and acola who secondary him? I guess his point is that riddles can go through an entire tournament with JUST kazuya while tea and acola will go Steve/ Pac-Man 95% of the tournament and whip out the kazuya for like 2 matches or so.
Tea DEFINITELY counts, you jackass. Ferps too
Y’all know why he said tea doesn’t count it’s cuz he doesn’t solo main him. I don’t agree that he doesn’t count but it’s obvious why he said that.
Bro says “but knock back though” literally in the clip it shows a Steve tanking a Yoshi forward air at kill percent.
"It doesn't let you escape hit stun, it is only a frame one escape. It wasn't even a true combo."
Lol, imagine this being the best argument to not ban Steve.
This character been begging for a ban. Do it.
crazy how people are using that its bad
Yup. Ban Steve
"Get good"
-Ddee
WhyDo embarassed himself so hard i wished he knew how to defend himself
Literally just steve mains gaslighting themselves to think that the tech isn’t broken or ban worthy
There's no defense is why, there's really nothing Whydo can honestly say that would defend Steve. I don't blame him much because he's probably still in shock; this tech almost certainly guarantees a Steve ban meaning all a lot of the training he's done is no longer relevant. There's an unlikely string of hope that more broken tech could show up for a bunch other characters just before Steve is officially banned at major tournaments and that might be what he's holding out hope for.
I get WhyDo. He loves chaos. But he should've sat this one out.
With this tech he doesn’t need defense
Whydo is literally “ I am louder which means I’m right”
Top players are telling him why this tech is a problem. When many of these top players really didn’t say too much out of the gate with many of the other tech
I don’t know why that guy is on the call. He doesn’t even compete. Let the top players who actually compete (and TO’s) have an opinion on this and everybody else has to take a backseat.
EDIT: and his argument was literally “play mythra”. This dude is garbage. That’s literally revolving the meta around steve
WhyDo's stance, as best I can interpret it after only about 20 minutes into the discussion, basically boils down to the difference of something being bad in theory versus it being bad in practice. He doesn't seem opposed to a ban ever happening, just not happening right away.
Obviously the tech is busted in theory but we have no way of knowing how it'll work in practice. He's just saying it give it a month or so and see what ACTUALLY happens rather than immediately jump to the ban option. If in one or two months Steve results improve noticeably, that's when we should consider a ban - not right after the tech was found but never actually used.
@@reperfan4 and I hear that. It’s what I believe should happen myself, but all his points are absolutely flawed.
That and allowing this tech to thrive just to see upsets and then eventually ban it anyways is an ass theory.
If the tech is banned, all good.
If it isn’t banned and the character starts jumping up in results, the character would be banned altogether.
That’s the risk you run.
Ban tech early or ban character late
@@calivali2876 if it gets late the character simply won't be banned though and it will kill the game, like just look at bayo
I am not playing Mythra just to deal with Steve. I put so many hours into my favorite mains... I am NOT picking up anyone just to deal with ONE BROKEN CHARACTER. I SHOULDN'T have to pick up a top tier to deal with another, THAT'S when you know Steve needs a ban.
@@Spyder-Marth agreed
the way that WhyDo is literally fighting for his life over an advantage that no other chracter has and wuld carry him in sets is crazy sad and hilarious
The character is already carrying him, tbf
@@trailertrash2147 nah whydo is cracked even without Steve. It's so weird seeing him be so against banning the tech. His views are usually pretty good.
@@andrewshot7720 no they aren’t, lol
@@ReconNarwhal bruh have you seen his item play? Watch some of his series and you'll see his combos.
He was more based when he played Mii Brawler.
The only way to beat Steve at this point is to prey to God you get the first stock and just run away from him until time runs out
Have fun out running that gold mine cart
So Sonic is the only one that can beat Steve? 🙄
So... Play Sonic
@@ladellcalhoun8133 why would you run from a mine cart when you can just simply jump over it. If you play smash Foreal let me know I’ll add you and you can play Steve and I’ll show you exactly how to counter play him.
@@htc7446 And he still kinda fails at running away since steve can make himself fall out upair, meaning the steve starts out in an even harder advantage that sonic needs to overcome to run away, if a person made that their way to fight steve.
Alright, I want to share my thoughts as someone who hasn't played Smash in any form since grade school, but recently began watching competitive play on TH-cam. My perspective might be an unusual one, but I think it's a valuable one. Smash Ultimate is a pretty captivating game for normies like me, I like that it has a uniquely big roster in which so many characters have enough going for them to make a huge diversity of cool matchups in the hands of the right players. The game's thriving competitive diversity, as well as awesome TH-cam content creation (like hbox) has brought me to start caring about a game I don't play and never will.
But Steve matches are not fun to watch. They never have been. Even to my completely untrained eyes, I can tell immediately how quickly a match-up against Steve sucks the life and fun out of a set. Steve doesn't do anything cool or flashy, and yet every move he has seems obscenely powerful for barely any reason. He slows down the game while demanding you approach while creating literal physical barriers to approaching, and he can seemingly combo just about anything into a kill off the top of the stage. He forces a reaction while also restricting his opponents options in a way that is baffling, miserably out of place in a Smash game. As much as people complain about Pacman, I can promise you that new viewers watching a competitive Pac-Man game are saying "wtf is going on, Pac-Man is weird but that kill was really cool looking." The same people watching Steve are saying "oh wow, I can follow pretty much everything Steve just did to kill combo and it still looked lame and cheap, this character seems too op for how uninteresting it is."
Viewers, especially new viewers like me, want to see flashy combos. We want to see jawdropping offstage exchanges and fast, reactive gameplay. We want to see tense nailbiters where we aren't quite sure when or how the coup de grace blow is going to connect, we want to see people make it back onstage when we didnt think they possibly could. What we don't want to see is a Steve building a wall, standing still and mining, lazily waving his sword around in the air and throwing a minecart to punish his opponent for daring to even think about trying to interact with Steve. We don't want to see Steve build an L for the 100th time and invalidate every other character's hopes and dreams of getting back on stage.
We want to see an awesome roster of diverse characters showing us what it looks like when they play their game their way. Instead, I continually find myself getting to watch what it looks like when that awesome roster is forced to bite their tongues and play Steve's game Steve's way.
As far as I can tell the current debate is whether this tech makes Steve permabanned, or "just" makes him better unequivocally better than every other character. And I am here to tell you all: it really doesn't matter. Ban this stupid character. Steve's design and mechanics are what make this game a worse viewing experience, not his new tech. I am sick of seeing Steve win competitive upsets against players and characters that SEEM more skilled and more interesting to watch. Get him out. This thing doesn't belong in Smash for so many reasons.
Steve combos and setups aren't flashy?
This sounds like someone is salty Steve has excellent tools. You need very high situational awareness to play Steve at high levels and also to play against him. A tech like this is hard to defend but there's nothing wrong with the character itself. It isn't impossible to beat Steve
@Dizzy Dial I'm really not here to comment on how Steve feels to play as or against, I made that as clear as I could. I even respect that, to long-time players, Steve probably feels like a very cerebral and strategic character to play as and against.
I am here to comment on how, to someone largely brand new to competitive Smash, Steve matches are not as fun to watch as literally any other matchup in the game. He is not flashy and I stand by that. His main combos on air and ground are literally just the "minecraft sword wave." He occasionally swings a pickaxe with the same basic arm motion. His minecart is legitimately interesting to a first time viewer like me, but it's combination with block placements mostly expresses itself in gameplay as tool to slow the game down to the Steve player's pace by reducing his opponent's options in a very gimmicky way. His lava bucket, pickaxe spike, blocks, and that fire block he puts over his head make it seem like getting hit off stage is an unrecoverable death sentence against a good Steve for almost every other character, which make the most exciting part of pro play for me (off stage play) extremely one-note. When combined with the way he has a glide and the cart for recovery, he doesn't appear to actually have that many true weaknesses. If Steve was a C tier character, I would probably enjoy watching him on account of how weird his kit is in a platform fighting game. As an S+ tier, he just carves out a huge corner of the entire meta for a game with such a gigantic roster for himself.
So, am I salty about Steve? I guess so. But I am also literally about as uninvested in Smash as a competitive ultimate viewer can possibly be. I don't play the game and I am new to the community. I fundamentally dont respect the time and effort Steve players have put into their character. So what exactly does it mean for me to be salty about Steve?
It means that I would be enjoying my time watching tournaments more if I didn't see as much Steve. If you guys are really concerned about the competitive health of your game, I suggest you take my opinion for exactly what it is: not an informed opinion, but an opinion from the exact type of person you might have recently drawn into the viewerbase of competitive Smash because of people like Hbox making good TH-cam algorithm content. And the type of person you should probably be concerned with retaining the attention of.
@@dizzydial8081 that has nothing to do with the character being boring
A character being lame isn't a good reason for a ban. A ton of characters who bring their own lame mechanics to the game or are overtuned in certain areas that makes them boring to watch/fight. By that logic we would ban like 30 characters.
@@sentoworf Like who?
this tech single handed turn the Steve - Joker Matchup -2 for Joker. He confirms all his kills off of Multihits. With the tech left legal he can only reliably kill with back air and it's really easy to avoid 1 move the entire game.
I legit don’t get to play the game anymore, all we can do is hope to land a fair one. And hope it sends into tumble, and even then how would I know if he just pulls out some other random janky thing to stop that as well?
@@cyrrus_lite2796 Oh boohoo top 3 character can't do his flowchart combos anymore(I'm joking) unironically though it's pretty bad that a character's whole meta game is shut down by one tech
@@GnWVaporing I also play Marth and hero, but dude, I agree with you, the fact that so many characters are just negated…
Oh mother of Pearl I feel bad for pit players
@@cyrrus_lite2796 Pit can now only do side b, tilt attacks(except for uptilt) and downsmash LMAO
@@GnWVaporing Steve literally now can nullify entire characters (also bair and dair)
My favorite comment is at 1:07:46
If Steve players have to play poorly to stop the character from being banned then the character wouldnt be a problem
Y’all gotta grow up😂
Literally banning the tech is close to impossible. Even IF the tech is IMPOSSIBLE to do on accident(which I'm positive there will be accidents once and awhile down the road)the problem is monitoring these things. This isn't an easy tech to see. Some are obvious;Cancelling a spike or something that should have knocked back Steve super far away, avoiding true combos, and the little white box that shows up when Steve can't place a block is a tell-tale sign. However, avoiding a true combos can come from other factors(SDI, positioning, or mistiming)and lots of characters/moves can straight up cover up the little white box making it harder to find out if Steve did the tech(in one of the twitter clips bowser's nair and mario's upair I believe did this). This means that whenever someone claims that a Steve player is using the tech a mod(or multiple mods)have to find the match, then find the game, then get the replay, then find the moment where they used the tech, then confirm or deny if the tech was done. Since this is Hbox's channel let's take Coinbox for instance. Coinbox is a HUGE, probably the biggest, online tournament. It's free to enter but has a big payout. This is the prime environment for Steve players to take advantage of their tech. There are hundreds of players that participate in Coinbox. It's *PHYSICALLY* impossible to observe EVERY SINGLE match. There are a lot of Steve players as well. Keeping an eye on all of them is still very difficult and is also unfair for higher level and more honest Steve players. On top of this there are people that can straight up ACCUSE a Steve player for using the tech when they never did. They just need the right situation to do so(which players can manipulate). On the other side, Steve will become like Bayonetta players in Smash 4. Bayonetta wasn't banned at the end of Smash 4. The reason was becuase people used her sparingly. Even when they DID use her, they tried to keep it lowkey, and avoided certain combos routes and witch time. I have no doubt that Steve players can and will do the same with this tech in order to keep it(or at least keep their character available). This is just Coinbox btw. What about smaller online tournaments with less mods and less recognition? How about offline? Will locals need people to walk around to make sure the Steve's are up to no good? They'll have to observe and evaluate any replays if someone claims that a Steve DID in fact do the tech. This takes away time and energy from them. What about majors? God forbid the super majors...Long story short, banning the tech causes way too much speculation and issues. It can also cause divides within the community and a negative stigma. This game has no more updates coming to it. Don't let this be another smash 4. Smash 4 ended on a very sour note thanks to people reluctance for banning Bayo, we can't repeat the same mistake. Smash Ultimate was a fun rollercoaster of emotions and anticipation, don't let that be taken away by one singular character. There's over 80 characters in this game. Almost all of them can perform very well, something unique among Smash's history with tier lists and balance. Just ban Steve. Nothing more, nothing less.
Aint nobody reading this lmao it is possible to ban the tech, just need enough TO’s. Or just ban steve, simple fix
Agreed.
nuh uh
Though before banning him, I would suggest to run a few locals to truly test how broken this tech is and if it lets Steve gets away from everything easily,
Yeah, ban him right then.
@@emanueltheodorus1056I say just ban the tech and NOT Steve himself. The tech is the MAIN problem here.
I like hbox. He plays jigglypuff and doesn’t afraid of anything.
Doesn’t afraid 💀
*isn't
@@dogyX3 if you don’t know, you don’t know
@@echospace7347 It's a meme
trueing
3:08 The Mid Level Steves Only Want to keep the tech to cheese their way to victory with their universal F You Card
Yeah they want a bayo or mk situation where its not being a better player but playing a better character. Obviously don’t care for the future of the game and more for their own results.
They’re already cheesing their way to victory, this is just the icing on the cake
Yup
Bayo may have broken in smash 4 , but at least they weren't actively breaking the game.
This is no longer about banning Steve this about keeping smash ultimate from suffering the same fate as 4
@@trailertrash2147 indeed
DDee: "WHAT ARE YOU *TALKING* (ABOUT)"
is one of the funniest things I've seen in a while
I hated this discussion because of how heavily biased it was in terms of Steve representation. Outside of Hbox and GimR all of the members are Steve mains. Even with the diversity of opinion among the Steve mains (e.g. DDee and Rockman wanting a tech ban and WhyDo not wanting a ban at all) they needed more non-Steve reps in the conversation. DDee and Rockman are more moderates on this issue whereas WhyDo is more of a strong opposition to a ban. GimR and Hbox are more moderate voices as well. They needed someone with WhyDo’s energy on the opposing side in favor of the ban imo. I’ll give them credit for exploring varying angles of the issue with nuance, but I don’t think there was enough pushback on certain points made as a result of the demographics.
Yeah, we need like Coney in here
@@juicecakes Coney would’ve been a good choice
The entire point was to talk to Steve mains, you missed the point of the video. Every single other conversation on this issue is composed of non Steve players. Hbox explains at the start of the video why he's talking to Steve players
@@LitCactus I understand wanting to get their expertise on the character to see what their informed opinion is on it. But if you’re going to have a discussion about a decision which affects the entire rest of the playerbase it doesn’t make sense to not hear substantial pushback. At that point you’re weighing the opinion of Steve mains on this issue astronomically higher than the rest of the community.
The people in chat saying "Don't ban Steve just cope" are the reasons that Steve players are so hated. Same losers who told us Shantae fans to kill ourselves when she got deconfirmed! I will never let those Steve players who told us that live that down! They went too far and got away with it!
You can’t ban the tech without banning the character. People won’t know the tech is happening to them in tourney unless they know about the tech and unless they’re going to somehow magically monitor every single match banning the tech won’t be feasible. Plus banning Steve will be better for the overall longterm viewership of Smash Ultimate.
As they brought up a few times in this session, chances are matches will be streamed at the point where it matters (top 64 at majors and such), so match reviews are feasible. Also, this same argument happened in Melee when they first banned wobbling, but that ban has proven to be very effective over time
@@kalticcodes Again, someone that does not know about the tech will not know it is happening to them. Take a 256 or 512 player tourney. Only top 128 or top 64 will be streamedZ
It’s pretty friggin’ obvious when you’re getting wobbled in Melee. Apples to Oranges.
@@JavierPwns I agree. Other banned techs such as Scrooging and Infinite Dimensional Cape were extremely easy to spot, hence very easy techniques to monitor after a ban.
That's the commonality between all of these banned techniques.
The Steve Tech, however, is not only broken, but *difficult* to spot.
"It's impossible to get on accident." What does that even mean? Of course it can happen on accident.
That's what I said, it's literally just a b press
its more complicated to input than just "press b when you are getting hit". theres a reason we havent ever seen this happen before in 2 years of tournaments, you have to purposefully do it
@@judahdeitrich2482 most tech is found by ‘accident’ (in a match or by labbing), so ppl not discovering this for two years is probably due to ppl not going to press block in disadvantage or ppl assuming Steve is just doing dumb Steve things lol idk.
@judahdeitrich2482 except they first got this idea from a tournament lofl
Yeah, totally, and that's going to be what every Steve main is going to say whenever they are called out for it. If it was deliberate, then you would still need to have to's to watch the replay i's a bad idea to keep this legal.
All Steve players have to start at 30%. Take it or leave it.
Ok wait let him cook.
But what about the rest of the stocks? Can people just program the game to have Steve be at 30% for all three stocks?
@@grotto185 yeah you can, the game has a setting called handicap, in which you can choose the percent you start every stock with.
@@clubi56 oh well shoot that can be an option
@@grotto185 there’s a built in feature ofr it.
"It can't be done by accident because it took 2 years to get discovered" So many issues with this logic. Exploits are 99% of the time discovered by accident and it can happen later on a game's cycle or early. He is too stubborn to just agree to a character ban when this character is p2w.
Whydo is defending something that has no counterplay and no downsides if it doesn't work because "maybe we'll find counter play one day". How about this, ban steve (or the tech at least) tell you figure out if it has a counter play or not. Why ruin several tournaments to FINDOUT if it has counterplay or not to ban it later onj nayways when it doesnt. Thats some fucking dumb logic to say it doesnt need to be banned because it MIGHT have counter play we haven't figured out when we can just ban it now and see if counterplay is made and unban it after.
I get WhyDo is the main guy defending the tech so he legitimately should get more time but he needs to stop talking when he's basically just repeating a point good lord
Honestly Steve players need to be on mute for this conversation. The amount of cope is insane. We're talking about the undisputed best Character in the game rn. This isnt a knee jerk reaction anymore. This is like the 8th time this character has been called out for a ban. It stopped being knee jerk after the 3rd time.
His neutral is already wild strong, disadvantage basically nonexistent, he can infinite ledge stall and maintain all his resources and even get those resources back, invalidate most recoveries without even being close to danger, freestyle TODs out the ass, incredible frame data that are also kill options, AND NOW we discover he has a game breaking exploit.
THIS IS ONLY THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG! We already have video evidence of Steve being able to tech off his own blocks at 999% after a Kazuya fsmash AND input this tech for a reversal. Steve can 0toD you with a jab combo. And fucking jab combo. A Steve player need only pull this input off ONCE and has the opportunity to kill you for it at ANY PERCENT.
Not to mention it cab invalidate his opponents advantage state AT ANY POINT, meaning every fight with a Steve is now only neutral interactions...where Steve excels and can kill you off one neutral win. How is this still a conversation. OFCOURSE Steve plays don't want the character banned, he's responsible for almost 100% of their success in ultimate. Ban the character, if Acola and Onin can't continue to win sets without this character, it just proves they were were being hard carried in the first place.
DDee is a steve player though and agreed it should be banned. Makes no sense to ban people who play and know the most about the character from talking about banning it or a specific tech. WhyDo clearly coping tho
@2Fade Ddee wants to ban the tech not the character. I think the character has cause too many problems as is and should just be rid of. This is like the 8th time a discussion about banning this character has started up, each time it's something crazier than the last lmfao Steve players have their opinions and they might even agree with me but they don't want to lose their character at the end of the day, I don't like that bias.
Hear me out: The only time we allow Steve is in a ditto. If your opponent doesn’t agree to a Steve ditto, you can’t play Steve
Edit: thanks for all the compliments🤗🤗🤗
...Wait, let him cook.
This is actually a great idea for banned characters in general. I think this should definitely be considered for more games that ban characters
For real. This is such a good idea for any banned characters. Imagine how hype these hated characters would suddenly become if they were only pulled out once in a long while for a mirror match.
Actually a really good idea, then nobody could complain with the outcome
This should be top comment,
Genius of an idea.
Hbox getting the delivery driver to come on stream is the best video in recent memory for sure
WhyDo's copium is the most copium of all the copium it's actually insane.
Onin saying ban Steve???
Onin, good brother, ive said some harsh things to you in the past (no death threats but still), for which i sincerely apologize. Stay strong, brother
Yeah, that’s wild, because without Steve, homie straight up would still be unknown. I gained mad respect for him for that.
If I'm not mistaken, Onin began to use steve after he losses to one on a tournament. So I think it makes sense.
Onin has acknowledged for a long time that his character is busted and carries. He has publicly said he'd be nowhere near the same in results without Steve. I like the guy and didn't mind him winning stuff with Steve but being able to do this tech is crazy and there's no defense for it lol
homie is depending this tech like his life depends on it.
Carried players punching air RN
How much more does Steve actually need before something is done? It’s not knee jerk any more, he has too much, he’s proven to be broken, and he can carry bad players. What more do we need?
The community is too much of a pussy to ban something and will rather watch the game slowly die. That's the answer.
A character carrying “bad” players is not enough to ban it. This is definitely bannable, the question is wether the character or the tech, and though I never agreed on banning the character before, I see the point where this is really hard to enforce and ultimately hurts the community
The only reason he's still in, is that he takes some effort to learn. But AFTER you spend the time learning him. he takes EVEN MORE time for anyone to learn to play against.
Ban Steve, bruh.
Whydo is coping like fucking mad here. And no one can follow Rockman's Mkleo vs Spargo analogy due to MK being crouched on ledge instead of jumping up - the important part were clouds inputs and % there, just imagine it was Steve doing the tech instead of Byleth being crouched lol
Steve should've been banned. Nobody in the game can modify the map on the fly, get his jumps back from blocks, and have a moving hitbox that lasts so long, has armor, and grabs you even after the initial frames. Dont kid yourself, character has been broken this list is not all inclusive.
WhyDo be the guy to unban arcade Omega Rugal
Damn you thought Steve was the last dlc the way he came and took over
With the way the smash community is headed we all need to be incredibly careful with how we handle these types of things from here on out. We are in uncharted territory, and the last thing we need is further division amongst the community that is so struggling to maintain its footing.
Also, I've been around the fgc for a while now and my view in the argument of "don't ban it yet because it's hard."
Just because it's hard doesn't make it okay. There's a sleu of cursed unblockable setups in games like guilty gear plus R and they are absolutely banned. The problem with Steve's is that smash is such a cluttered game that it's so incredibly difficult to spot the tech as opposed to some sort of "cursed setups."
Nairo said on stream that a Steve ban wouldn’t be that bad because he isn’t 60 percent of tournament entries. Banning characters like meta knight in brawl would have hurt the game because a lot of players stopped showing up due to how many meta knight players there were.
@@ssensei34 yeah and it was a similar situation with Bayonetta. The topic of banning usually arises when a games entire meta is centralized around countering one specific character or tactic
I agree with this take, something being broken but hard doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be banned
@@ssensei34 Ban Nairo
Personally, this should just be a banned character until the tech is patched or some community mod fixes it. It's not something that can easily be monitored, it's something that creates too much value in playing steve that other characters simply cannot offer, and in addition steve is ALREADY a top tier character with unique options and a metric f load of versatility.
Steve himself shouldn't be banned but the sheer power of this tech and the extreme difficulty of preventative measures just warrants a cooldown period while more permanent solutions are being worked on.
A reminder that WhyDo unironically compared this tech to wavedashing if you wonder about his credibility
That being said, dude still needs to chill out and seriously rethink all the “hitstun canceling isn’t broken” stuff lol
He's dumb/ugly in real life. Naturally he's going to cling to Steve. It's all he's got.
There’s 2 different types of ‘broken’ in my eyes.
One kind of broken is a character which is just way too powerful, but still follows the rules of the game. Pythra for example.
The other kind of broken is “literally says fuck you to basic game mechanics because of glitches”. That’s Steve.
You forget the third type of broken, where a tech is busted, but all characters have access to it, like crouch canceling.
Steve was already busted.
It took almost 2 years to find this technique, it is very plausible that others exist considering the half cooked nature of steve as a smash character.
Steve should be banned, because he is a frustrating character that has busted moves and, in the case of the PMLG, broken move.
Just wait for Smash's Daigo Parry moment where a tournament Steve gets a reverse 3-stock on three straight hitstun cancel zero to deaths.
I’m sorry, but WhyDo was so irritating in this video.
He barely contributed to the conversation, had very weak arguments and constantly interrupted people, loudly talking over them.
It just felt extremely rude to the others in the group call that had all gathered together to discuss a serious issue and plan on a decision that will undoubtedly change a lot about competitive Smash.
People are going to try to use this no matter what. Not ever match or every tournament perhaps but it will be used. Maybe if start just banning people early who you catch using it early on it will work but that’s another whole thing to deal with
Also, WhyDo is a terrible debater. He was just loud this whole conversation
Do you wait for it to ruin tournaments or do you let people figure it out before you let it into tournament. If you think it is broken ban Steve and if later its found to be super niche let him back in. rather ban a character and let Steve mains play their off then have Steve ruin a tournament for everyone.
DDee 23:35 : "If I beat someone in bracket cuz I did this tech, bro it might be a safety hazard high key" I can't 🤣
As an online TO. You can't just ban the tech, it's too hard to moderate. Either ban the character or do nothing.
Looks like all the Steve's think this tech is unfair soooooo..🤔
36:54 the idea that locals don’t matter is the death of WhyDo’s argument.
bruh whydo's logic is actually giving me an aneurism
like at 1:13:44
it's what the tech does in COMBINATION with steve's kit, you can't just act like they're completely separate things. It's not that steve should be banned if the tech didn’t exist, it's not that a character having that tech should be an automatic ban. Combining the two absolutely is more than the sum of it's parts ffs...
I think steve should be banned regardless but I can accept if someone makes real arguments like a strong belief in the purity of the fighting game, whatever, but this stupid nonsense is so frustrating to hear.
Seriously, this guy runs a tournament called "bad things happening to good people", why tf is his opinion being considered for smash as a whole
Seriously though, if Steve (or the tech AT LEAST) isn't banned at this rate, I'm going to quit comp Smash, heavily boycott the competitive scene, and laugh as the scene dies like Sm4sh. This has gotten too far. I used to be a heavy "Don't ban Steve" guy, but I can't defend this; I don't want to defend this; I'd hate myself if I defended this! The number of hours I've spent on this game, only to see Steve mains suddenly get a broken advantage like this? Heck, no! CANCELING TUMBLE ANIMATIONS AT FRAME *1!* *FREAKING FRAME 1!* There is no defending this tech and being right. If Nintendo doesn't patch the tech (obviously likely they'll ignore this tech), then we'll just ban the character. If Nintendo still doesn't patch it out, leave Steve banned.
This tech is far too hard to monitor as a TO., WAY too annoying to see as a player (who is facing the Steves), and waaaay to crazy for us viewers to handle. Imagine watching your favorite players all get beat by a random Steve main abusing this tech. THIS is what anyone can learn and do in like a week or less. It's not like the player has to train for years to do this tech. You learn this easily and get results easily. Steve players are already online using this tech in Elite Smash. Yeah, I'm dropping Ultimate if it becomes overrun with Steves.
how is WhyDo a real person bro LOL what is his argument
This is my favorite Hbox video by far, the long for discord was quite interesting
Steve turning into Herobrine in real time
They gave Steve an aerial crouch cancel
I'm getting tired of the "it doesn't work if it sends into tumble" argument when there are multiple clips that disprove that and show Steve cancelling the hitstun on strong spikes like Yoshi's fair and even Ganon's dair (at mid %s, too) that would absolutely cause tumble. Maybe spikes are different somehow?
Imagine it was ganon that got this tech, I would be so happy.
would still be ass 😪
Honestly even Ganondorf having this would nearly warrant a ban as well. That's how much this tech breaks the game
guys he’s not being serious. Imagine how glorious it could be canceling hit stun into warlock punch off stage. AS A JOKE
@@figlego 💀 alright, before you ratio me, let me explain something. new exploits are additions to a character's moveset, and while ganon's moves are admittedly pretty good, his attributes are not very good at all. However, for Steve, his moves at can string together in such a way that it's just plainly incredible. add the tech/exploit on to that incredible moveset, and its just an overload. however, we shouldn't be irrational and immediately ban him. Either give this abomination we call Steve time to fester to discover the potential of the tech, or we panic, throw caution to the wind, and dust off the ban hammer. your choice, smash community.
@@krusher181 warlock punch so slow he'll just miss and die lol
Before the tech has been extensively explored, that's already basically free neutral punishes each life once players get good using it.
Seems banworthy just to save players having to become skilled with the tech just for the inevitable ban to drop later.
"Steve is cooler than Puff"
That's a REAAAAL hot take there, kiddo
Puff > Steve every day of the frikking week
Puff is much cooler than a fucking Roblox reject there I said it.
As a casual smash watcher for years, Steve is more interesting due to the sheer amount of creativity his kit gives you.
All opinions and thoughts are 100% valid, watching this along with other top players thoughts really widens the perspective of this surprising find.
Banning a character in a fighting game is a last resort option and it can hurt a community but it can also make a community grow.
Honestly I couldn't give an answer on my thoughts as of this moment, I can only hope that things somehow work out in the end.
But mad respect to the amazing players that discussed this matter along with Hungrybox, these guys really know how to take this problem into a careful discussion.
wishy washy waffling
ALSO 2nd comment incoming, That clip at 29:18 just solidifies this character needs to go, all that speculation, imagine that was the end of a set in bracket. You cant tell if he did or didnt use it OR if it was even intentional. Telling me "the tech is too hard so it shouldnt be banned" Like we dont have people who have mastered Icies desync, or people who mastered Kazuyas whole kit, or people who use Ryu and Kens L/H input consistently and beautifully. This tech will be EVERYWHERE and it is 100% unfair, YES you can COUNTER the tech....But only if you know steves going for it. Whats to stop him from doing it once off ledge, and then next time in the same situation decides to just ledge hop and minecart? The counters are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT and UNREACTABLE. WhyDo embarrassed himself here.
I'm 20 minutes in an WhyDo sounds like a madman to me. Does he ever stop talking crazy talk?
If this tech was found with a mid character like Pit, everything would be ok. The fact is, this is on the character who is already best Character in the game. Already deemed broken by so many. For so many of us, this is just the cherry on top. Banning Steve is the most logical option, since banning a tech is too hard now.
interesting thoughts, thanks hbox.
i don't want either steve or the tech to be banned, but it's an unhealthy addiction to the op, so for balance's sake, i'll go with whatever the TOs decide on.
There’s a Steve player in my area and he’s already abusing the heck out of this new tech
The whole what percent Steve is at debate is pointless. Multi hits don't work at any percent with this tech.
Smash 4 was killed by Bayo not being banned. Don't make the same mistakes.
To be fair, Sonic should get ban from smash cause it so boring to fight against him while they are running and camping away.
WhyDo is so hurt over this lmao everything he says has an argument to it. It’s like he’s trying to tell himself the tech isn’t that bad to people by saying it’s not that bad
39:22 wtf did Lucas do
If little Mac or Ganon had this tech it wouldn't be a big deal. The most op character in the game has it so that character should be banned. Not hard at all. Many people hate Steve and instead getting better than your opponent you can just use Steve and do the same option over and over until it works. Ban Steve.
This is the easiest reason to ban Steve. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the biggest advocates are just people who really like playing the character. This technique is borderline impossible to monitor. Literally no one is going to commit time as a moderator to closely monitor this in every low percent interaction in every Steve game so if the tech is ban worthy so is the character. No way around it unless someone mods the game for competitive play which will never happen with Nintendo’s legal team breathing down the neck of tourney organizers
Ban every character but Steve and the game will be balanced.
😂😂😂