Isn't it sad how many opera "lovers" live so far in the past.They don't like any voice that comes from a singer that is not retired,or preferably dead.Oh,how terrible it is for them if the singer is of today,and dares to sing the aria in any different way.They are missing so much. BTW I am 70, and worked at Covent Garden,and have heard some of the voices that are so loved here.Without naming names,I can assure you that some "famous" baritones were not that good "live" but seemed so with recording studio help.
I heard - give an example - Fischer-Dieskau in both Lieder and opera and obviously in his numerous recordings. His voice live was actually better than on records. Comparing him to such raved over singers as Holl and Goerne I would suggest that many singers today have strong voices but lack the technique to project their voices in an auditorium. I would suggest technical deficiency plus a lack of depth - in effect knowledge and musicality - are problems today. What is worse, especially in the UK which has had many good singers but very few world class stars, there is the culturally ignorant preference for stentorian "West End musical" voices over beauty of tone, legato and style.
I 100% agree with you. I believe there is an important number of extraordinary singers singing nowadays. I also believe that people, probably because of YT and self-proclaimed internet experts, have a tendency of venerating bygone era singers and overlook the flaws they had, and of only underline the flaws on today singers. Most annoying all those YT channels that state that there is only one universal singing technique that should be respected and those who don't are considered bad singers. I heard Lise Davidsen the other day, and it she was simply marvellous.
We heard Pape live as Sarastro at Wien Stadtsoper on 30 December. It was a wonderful and powerful performance. His Wotan here is equally powerful and convincing, and it’s sad and unworthy to read comments from so many detractors. Should every performance be committed to recording and sound manipulation only? Keep music live and vibrant. Bravo, Pape and Maestro!
I don't have a daughter but I relate to the mixed feelings of disappointment, pride, love, protection and that takes me to a vulnerable place. God, if I had a daughter I would be probably sobbing constantly in this part haha.
Musique sublime ! Un des "sommets" du RING !!! Il en a tellement !!!! R. Pape est excellent ! ...bien qu'il soit une basse ...et non pas un baryton - basse !!!
Honestly, this is the first time Wotan's Abschied actually hasn't brought me to tears, and it is all due to "Maestro" Gatti's vocalisations during the orchestral climax, so, pardon my french, FUCK THIS!!!
Très probablement Maestro Gatti ("matous") a été impressionné par feu le Comte de Harnoncourt, qui avait des tempi d'incendie. Le danger est beaucoup moindre à conduire plus lentement, que trop vite. C'est, du moins, ce que m'a dit mon Maître, Sir John Barbirolli RIP. Et il était infiniment meilleur que Harnoncourt, même s'il n'avait pas un si beau palais en Italie Septentrionale.
What beautiful singing! (I am increasingly mystified as to what constitutes the difference between a chamber orchestra and a full symphony orchestra. My former definition..."chamber" has no more than double woodwinds and brass. Clearly, that falls apart right here!)
A noble effort, but I've heard James Morris too many times for anyone to knock him off my pedestal. And will someone smack the conductor please? He began so loud that I wouldn't have blamed Pape if he stopped and said, 'I'm not going to geshrei over that racket.'
Gatti è un buon direttore d'orchestra, ma deve rinunciare a Wagner, purtroppo i tempi sono proprio sbagliati. In quanto a Pape, non mi entusiasma, molti altri interpreti lo superano in questo ruolo.
Pape's voice is definitely not my concern with this video. There are recordings of Wotan's Abschied from the 1930s of greater fidelity and quality than this. Why does it sound so awful? What on earth were they drinking in the mixing booth? A Chamber Orchestra recording from 2014 shouldn't sound like I'm listening to it through my neighbor's open car window.
Good Lord. What happened to Pape? He sounds like the centre fell out of his voice, and it shrank several sizes. I hope he's not ill. Perhaps he needs to take some time off and rest.
@@AP-dd3xpDisagree! Its a poor recording and even worse through poor distribution. His voice is great and heartwarming (if you ever had the chance to hear him live?) and I am sick of „experts“ that cant even differentiate between several factors of a recorded concert
I like Pape as well, but it's not the orchestra's fault that he doesn't have enough vocal power for Wotan... also the conductor is rushing so much... not a good performance
Pape has a nice basso cantante but he is the beneficiary of a period in operatic history when there are no great basses or heldenbaritons. He gets a lot of work by default. He simply is no Wotan. His voice does not have the "cut" to make his singing of this aria exciting. And he has to hold the music? Come on. Learn the damn thing, Rene.
Heard RP 10 days ago in recital. One of the greatest recitals I've ever heard. 4 languages, 4 composers, ease of production from the top to bottom of his voice, fantastic musician. Commanded the hall. Warmed my heart.
Oper mit Partitur zu singen ist nicht wirklich so überzeugend. Irgendetwas stimmt hier nicht. René Pape scheint sich nicht wohl zu fühlen. Keine Chemie mit dem Dirigenten? Hatte er zu wenig Zeit, die Musik einzustudieren? Legitime Fragen, die ganz offensichtlich eine Rolle spielten. Wüsste man nicht, wer er ist, wäre man hier sehr verwirrt.
Mahler Chamber Orchestra? What has this orchestra got to do with Mahler? Why not call it the Wagner Chamber orchestra (The word chamber is totally out of place) It`s tiresome the way Mahler is over celebrated now, he wrote nothing that can compare with the Ring.
Great voice of Rene Pape, not so great his diction, sorry. Unable to understand each word. Gatti's direction too hasty and nervous. Wotan's Abschied is not a Rossini's ouverture, sorry.
He doesn't sound like a God or a father to me. Much moree seriously however, is that I cannot find any emotion in this performance just a striving for technical proficiency but what is technical proficiency if there is no heart in it? I dont think this man should be singing Wotan-leaves me cold.
nice try. he should stop smoking too much cigarettes and drinking two bottles of red wine when he feels lonely plus sticking striktly to bass roles. heard him at his debut as Hunding in the Vienna State Opera. Very promising then, but now almost all of the substance and, even more tragic, his enthusiasm, is gone...
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I love Mr. Pape. I've seen him singing 11 times now. It never tires me. It is how Wagnerian singing should sound.
I heard him sing King Marke in Tristan about 20 years ago. Wonderful.
I heard Rene Pape live. He's an artist. His voice is absolutely beautiful live.
8:20, some of the most beautiful music wagner ever wrote
Isn't it sad how many opera "lovers" live so far in the past.They don't like any voice that comes from a singer that is not retired,or preferably dead.Oh,how terrible it is for them if the singer is of today,and dares to sing the aria in any different way.They are missing so much.
BTW I am 70, and worked at Covent Garden,and have heard some of the voices that are so loved here.Without naming names,I can assure you that some "famous" baritones were not that good "live" but seemed so with recording studio help.
you're right paradox - I'm 84 and I know very well what you are telling. You are most right
God forbid people who like music written before 1890 should live in the past!
I heard - give an example - Fischer-Dieskau in both Lieder and opera and obviously in his numerous recordings. His voice live was actually better than on records. Comparing him to such raved over singers as Holl and Goerne I would suggest that many singers today have strong voices but lack the technique to project their voices in an auditorium. I would suggest technical deficiency plus a lack of depth - in effect knowledge and musicality - are problems today. What is worse, especially in the UK which has had many good singers but very few world class stars, there is the culturally ignorant preference for stentorian "West End musical" voices over beauty of tone, legato and style.
I 100% agree with you. I believe there is an important number of extraordinary singers singing nowadays.
I also believe that people, probably because of YT and self-proclaimed internet experts, have a tendency of venerating bygone era singers and overlook the flaws they had, and of only underline the flaws on today singers. Most annoying all those YT channels that state that there is only one universal singing technique that should be respected and those who don't are considered bad singers.
I heard Lise Davidsen the other day, and it she was simply marvellous.
You didn't hear Battistini, Caruso, and Plançon live, okay. Who today sings like them? What if I don't like wobbly, muffled singing?
We heard Pape live as Sarastro at Wien Stadtsoper on 30 December. It was a wonderful and powerful performance. His Wotan here is equally powerful and convincing, and it’s sad and unworthy to read comments from so many detractors. Should every performance be committed to recording and sound manipulation only? Keep music live and vibrant. Bravo, Pape and Maestro!
I don't have a daughter but I relate to the mixed feelings of disappointment, pride, love, protection and that takes me to a vulnerable place. God, if I had a daughter I would be probably sobbing constantly in this part haha.
Fabulous singer. Gatti is one of the great one. U've seen him numerous times at the Met and always first rate.
Musique sublime ! Un des "sommets" du RING !!! Il en a tellement !!!! R. Pape est excellent ! ...bien qu'il soit une basse ...et non pas un baryton - basse !!!
Impecable interpretación!! VIELEN Dank!!!!
Can't wait for the concert halls around the world to re-open. A rebirth of sorts. Music is the best thing man invented.
@Nicholas Ennos , you're a bona fide was bigot
Struggente Daniele Gatti, intenso e drammatico, come il canto di Pape e una meravigliosa Mahler Chamber.
Pape vocal lightweight for this piece/role.
A entirely agree with you
Pape may be a basso cantate and not a heldenbariton, but he turns in a powerful and convincing rendition of Wotan's Farewell.
Wunderbar!Das ist mein lieber Oper!
also a wonderful version from the Met with James Morris.
Bravo mi amado WAGNER !!! GRACIAS PAPE!!!!
How noisy maestro Gatti is. I'm glad to see this; better online than live.
Excelente color de voz, mis respetos maestro Pape
Honestly, this is the first time Wotan's Abschied actually hasn't brought me to tears, and it is all due to "Maestro" Gatti's vocalisations during the orchestral climax, so, pardon my french, FUCK THIS!!!
Your comment is so disrespectful of both the conductor and the vocalist. When you find perfection in a live performance be sure to tell the world.
What's the rush Maestro Gatti? Is there a fire?
there's actually a fire as Wotan asked Loge to burn the mountain where his daughter lies. hahaha
I think that was the point of adamastorBassBar's joke, to be fair.
Quite right - poor Pape - struggling to keep up with this from the outset. Gatti - yet another overrated stick-waver
Yes it doesn't really ignite.
@@stefanufer608 would not agree - not overrated - rated just correctly.
Starts to look more and more like Matti Salminen.
La musique est trop forte et souvent couvre complètement la belle voix de Rene Pape , dommage 😩😩
It's not the music's fault...
i had to listen to Donald McIntyre doing this immediately afterwards to remind me how this is sung
Wow thanks for the name drop. What a brilliant Wotan! Can't believe I've never heard of him.
baritonZIGS Agreed. Or George London.
McIntyre...oh yes!
Is Maestro Gatti in a hurry ?
I made the mistake of listening to this clip after hearing George London with Erich Leinsdorf. No comparison. I miss the bass-baritone timbre.
Kudos to the piccolo!
Très probablement Maestro Gatti ("matous") a été impressionné par feu le Comte de Harnoncourt, qui avait des tempi d'incendie. Le danger est beaucoup moindre à conduire plus lentement, que trop vite. C'est, du moins, ce que m'a dit mon Maître, Sir John Barbirolli RIP. Et il était infiniment meilleur que Harnoncourt, même s'il n'avait pas un si beau palais en Italie Septentrionale.
What beautiful singing! (I am increasingly mystified as to what constitutes the difference between a chamber orchestra and a full symphony orchestra. My former definition..."chamber" has no more than double woodwinds and brass. Clearly, that falls apart right here!)
... sorry Laienfrage: Ist das Orchester zeitweise nicht zu mächtig ?
No... it's the soloist who's not loud enough...
A noble effort, but I've heard James Morris too many times for anyone to knock him off my pedestal. And will someone smack the conductor please? He began so loud that I wouldn't have blamed Pape if he stopped and said, 'I'm not going to geshrei over that racket.'
And the orchestra sounds very Mahlerian :(
I wouldn't say that the Orchestra was too loud... Pape simply doesn't have enough of voice for Wotan...
Oh my, Pape is shredding his voice in this breakneck racket. Did he go on to sing the part in the theater?
Gatti è un buon direttore d'orchestra, ma deve rinunciare a Wagner, purtroppo i tempi sono proprio sbagliati. In quanto a Pape, non mi entusiasma, molti altri interpreti lo superano in questo ruolo.
George London, Donald McIntyre, Hans Hotter, James Morris...
I love Pape but not in this role... I'd rather see him as Sarastro or Veit Pogner
I highly recommend listening to his version of The Good Friday from Parsifal, amazing...
Too fast.
did the conductor have a plane to catch ??
so Leb wohl is farewell and so does Abscheid? wow learning German here
Schon in der 2. Minute abgebrochen.. Ein Orchester, daß den Wotan umbringt..
too fast!!!!
troppo veloce il finale
vieeeel zu schnell! Fuerchterlich!
Wagner is hard. Rene, you don't need it.
What band is this? I heard about 4 different tempi in the first bar alone. What a mess!
,
Pape's voice is definitely not my concern with this video. There are recordings of Wotan's Abschied from the 1930s of greater fidelity and quality than this. Why does it sound so awful? What on earth were they drinking in the mixing booth? A Chamber Orchestra recording from 2014 shouldn't sound like I'm listening to it through my neighbor's open car window.
Maestro, hable más fuerte que tengo una toalla!!!!!!!
Good Lord. What happened to Pape? He sounds like the centre fell out of his voice, and it shrank several sizes. I hope he's not ill. Perhaps he needs to take some time off and rest.
He’s not ill. It’s just the wrong technique: no developed chest voice, woofy sound, all wrong!
@@AP-dd3xpDisagree! Its a poor recording and even worse through poor distribution. His voice is great and heartwarming (if you ever had the chance to hear him live?) and I am sick of „experts“ that cant even differentiate between several factors of a recorded concert
What a deception. I love Rene Pape, but the conductor gave him no chance!The orchestra was much too loud and the pace too fast.
I like Pape as well, but it's not the orchestra's fault that he doesn't have enough vocal power for Wotan... also the conductor is rushing so much... not a good performance
Gatti sollte die Finger von Wagner lassen. Auch Pape ist nur Mittelmaß. Sorry, aber Begeisterung kann hier nicht aufkommen....
Pape sounds like a baryton because ... he is a baryton.
Raphael B bass - baritone indeed....
+Raphael B
And he is a great one
Clear your ears out. He's a basso cantate.....
Since he is practically voiceless here who could judge?
Pape has a nice basso cantante but he is the beneficiary of a period in operatic history when there are no great basses or heldenbaritons. He gets a lot of work by default. He simply is no Wotan. His voice does not have the "cut" to make his singing of this aria exciting. And he has to hold the music? Come on. Learn the damn thing, Rene.
Heard RP 10 days ago in recital. One of the greatest recitals I've ever heard. 4 languages, 4 composers, ease of production from the top to bottom of his voice, fantastic musician. Commanded the hall. Warmed my heart.
totally agree, and he is a lot of times out pitch
@@AHalfBaritonehe's good, but not as Wotan
Sinks in the orchestra :-/
Oper mit Partitur zu singen ist nicht wirklich so überzeugend. Irgendetwas stimmt hier nicht. René Pape scheint sich nicht wohl zu fühlen. Keine Chemie mit dem Dirigenten? Hatte er zu wenig Zeit, die Musik einzustudieren? Legitime Fragen, die ganz offensichtlich eine Rolle spielten. Wüsste man nicht, wer er ist, wäre man hier sehr verwirrt.
Mahler Chamber Orchestra? What has this orchestra got to do with Mahler? Why not call it the Wagner Chamber orchestra (The word chamber is totally out of place) It`s tiresome the way Mahler is over celebrated now, he wrote nothing that can compare with the Ring.
Great voice of Rene Pape, not so great his diction, sorry. Unable to understand each word. Gatti's direction too hasty and nervous. Wotan's Abschied is not a Rossini's ouverture, sorry.
He doesn't sound like a God or a father to me. Much moree seriously however, is that I cannot find any emotion in this performance just a striving for technical proficiency but what is technical proficiency if there is no heart in it? I dont think this man should be singing Wotan-leaves me cold.
George London is the best Wotan.Pape sounds like a little girle
nice try. he should stop smoking too much cigarettes and drinking two bottles of red wine when he feels lonely plus sticking striktly to bass roles. heard him at his debut as Hunding in the Vienna State Opera. Very promising then, but now almost all of the substance and, even more tragic, his enthusiasm, is gone...
I've never heard this Wagner taken at such a rushed, break-neck tempo. ALL WRONG!!!!
Pape is showing his age. Too much vodka.
viel zu schnell!!! Kein Wunder, wenn Italiener Wagner dirigieren. Zum Kotzen
Horrible. They just rushed through it. Ridiculous. George London is the best version by far.