I've been wanting to make a video like this for a long time but I always felt like I had to qualify it too much. Like, I'm not trying to win a war, or keep my family alive. I'm just trying to make good things and put them on the internet. I have so many advantages (race, gender, money, education) that make all of these things easier for me, so I feel bad being prescriptive. I don't really want this to be about how you should live your life, I just want it to be about how I want to live my life.
That's the ultimate moral question. Do the ends justify the means? Is it all worth it in the end? At what point does it stop being acceptable? Does pineapple actually belong on a pizza?
My favorite quote about this line of thought is "A good deed, done in the name of evil, is still good. Likewise an evil deed, done in the name of good, is still evil."
There isn't such thing as "good men". All humans are capable of both good and bad behavior. That's what means to be moral agents. Be worry of pride. The easiest way to ensure humanity accomplishes nothing is to make them think that one of them has to win at the end.
nerd life Dumbledore is another example of a protagonist that inspires this perspective. I think those characters make for good books, but bad reality.
SuperWild1 But Dumbledore in HPMOR did bad stuff (killing a pet rock, for example :D) knowing for certain that his actions will make world a better place. Prophecies and ethics don't really fit together, do they?
This is so important. This is what I came here for. Thank you, Hank. I'm glad to see you so heavily contemplating such "deep" topics like this. This channel is always reminding me to try to be a consistently good person, and to always be working and changing. On Another Note, That dear hank and john reference right there!
It's not deep, condemning the "end justifies the means" statement is something that children's morning television does, and it's actually pretty stupid. In reality it's neither of the two extremes, actions and their consequences aren't separate, you always have to take both into accounts. A person who ends with terrible ends is not blameless just because he stuck with amiable means, no more than the person who does terrible things to achieve great things. This is faux deep.
bad thing= putting off an assignment. good thing = watching this video other good thing = possibly my channel (i guess good is relative) go check it anyway plzzzzz
All ends don't justify all means, but some ends justify some means. Every choice is a cost-benefit analysis, and sometimes unfortunately a choice that is perfectly ethical just isn't on the table, and you have to choose the option that is likely to lead to the best outcome, accepting that you might screw it up royally in the process. Grownup life is hard like that.
I remember watching this video when it came out, and it really impacted the way I saw the world. Coming back to it three years later, it still holds up as one of my favorite YT videos, & reminds me why vlogbrothers is so meaningful to me.
That was a wonderful list. To add someone to it. One big reason I am against Authoritarianism when it comes to positive progress is even if you obtain the change you desire, the only way to keep that change is to always maintain that fist (power). One violence is no longer looming over head, once you lose control of that power, things often will revert back to what they were. So real change can never be done through violence. It must be a slow, gradual, cultural change. Very much as Hank says, million of small peaceful nudges. These tiny nudges will have a far more lasting impact then change via authoritarian violence.
Emelenzia the only problem being that lots of people don't have the time left on this earth for those "tiny nudges" to take place, especially when your opponents can undo those nudges that you fought over for years with the swish of a pen. Imagine that; everything you've worked on for years eliminated within a month. What can be done then? If we always take one step forward and three steps backwards, we aren't moving forward.
Dan Young I agree with basically everything you said, but what does it have to do with parties? Are you under the false impression that authoritarianism and the like are only on one side?
Their is no other way to say this: I am deeply in love with Hank Green, I am in love with his way of talking, his logic, his life, his person. Hank Green is not only someone who I admire but someone who I love and support. Go nerdfightera!
"This thing doesn't exist" YESSS. Spot on! Future outcomes are never guaranteed, and we should live (and do good) in the present, for the sake of living and doing good in the present. You sound like a Buddhist, actually. :)
My ethics teacher described it the best. Don't make choices that you can't live with. Because people and circumstances will change but those choices are with you forever.
"If the entire world lived as if the ends justified the means, then the means in themselves are going to be a terrifying end" That sentence struck me. I was struck by it.
Based on the title and thumbnail I was expecting it to be about whether or not he supports punching Nazis, I like the more generalized approach he took to the broader topic.
My teacher asked us to right a fact using scientific notation with something really small I,having forgotten to look up a fact wrote the following fact ; The amount of lives I have=1*10^0. My teacher said "Its not really small is it?" I replied "its small enough to give me an existential crisis "
"If the entire world lived as if the Ends justify the Means, Then the Means in themselves are gonna be a terrifying End." Beautiful words, with an even better lesson.
I really admire the ability to admit that you changed your mind and once held an opinion that you disagree with now. I think that really hard in the current society especially when no one is forcing us to. I also think that it is a really important thing to be able to do. So that you for using your power (calling it what it is) and setting that example.
This is why freedom of speech is more important than someone's subjective sensitivities. That person will eventually get over it or eventually die, but people will keep needing communication indefinitely.
I have always been against "End Justify The Means" because by changing the means you change the end. Just as the reasoning for an action can change the way we view that action so too do the means of how we accomplish something change the overall goal. Just like how in this political climate those who say they are for social progression use aggressive, judgemental and sometimes lethal means to justify their "end" end up changing their "end" because of their own actions and reveal their ends to be petty and self-serving.
We should never think of other people as our pawns, or as the pawns of others, or of power. However, this means acknowledging people as active players who sometimes choose willingly to do bad things, in their own name or in the name of power. We should have empathy for those who seek to do bad things, but if you stand by and allow someone to do bad things, you are only lacking empathy for their victims. Thank you for this very insightful video, Hank. There is not always a clear answer to these questions, but when we struggle for one, it is because we care.
I kinda agree but not to the point of Kantean absolutism. If you go down that path I think it leads to ineffectuality for the sole end of self-righteousness. For example while it is true tha many countries including the US overspend on defense, but if we just up and decided 'killing people is bad therefore no defense force whatsoever' we would invite greater suffering. At a certain point i think it becomes necessary to use bad means to attain certain ends, but I agree that we should only do with caution.
The problem with war is that on the international level there is no efectiv law We would need an international court that judges over counrties that has support from enougth countries so that its rulings would be carried out It wouldnt bring instant world peace but it would be like the cange from a civil war to a counrtie with due process
+TheAnonymmynona The thing you just suggested is a thing that already exists. You've probably heard of the Geneva Convention, and you've probably heard of world leaders being tried for war crimes. Both of those are exactly what you described.
It's also the case that the post-WWII liberal world order that the US/NATO have achieved is a sort of global public good. Everyone benefits from safe travel on the seas and relative stability between nation states--and the Untied States has benefited more than anyone. In that respect it makes sense that the US spends so much on defense--it gets the most out of the system it has helped create.
All government is based on violence. We don't like to believe it, but that is the truth. Americans should know that better than most (though I suspect most don't). Even the smallest regulation has the potential of causing death. But government provides enormous benefits and protection. The best we can do is to to acknowledge the violence, and take as many steps we can to minimize it. We need ethical systems that helps us accomplish that aim.
I know that sounds really profound and that state sanctioned violence is one of the tools in the toolbox granted to governments but it is not the only foundation or even the strongest foundation for building civilization. Take a look around you, the vast majority behave in a civilized manner most of the time, why is this? It can't be explained by fear of violent government retribution because the government isn't looking most of the time so anyone could do wrong and not be caught, yet they don't. Violence is there for those who exit the civilized social contract but it has no place within civilized society.
You know Hank, I was really happy that this video was the way it was. Because it could've been like your comments section and man, Your comments section needs to reevaluate themselves. I really appreciate you making this
Do you believe you've had this change of heart because you've already gained said influence and power? Doubt I'd get a reply but your perspective on this would be interesting
I think it's fine to refuse to do bad stuff if you're unclear on whether achieving your goal will be successful or if you're unclear on the worth of your goal. But damn, if I can be positive that a limited number of bad actions will yield an undeniably positive outcome, it's my freaking duty to do it. You were right in the first place, Hank, this is why the bad guys win more than they should.
Thank you for sharing this internal struggle and transformation with us. I am realizing one reason why I love Vlogbrothers so much! I found y'all through Scishow and Hank. Love science, but I am a social science person too and have delved into personal development in a big way in my life time, which overtime has included a lot of personality typology. Meyers-Briggs Type Indicator talks about Sensors and Intuitives. I am an N, Intuitive and most of my family is as well. I miss the focus on pattern and possibility. It can lead to this type of depth, exploration and collaboration that is found in John and Hank's vlogs and interactions. So I am guessing you are both Intuitives. Having married a Sensor, I really miss this. And I am getting some of that vicariously here. Thank you. ❤️
Thank you for sharing this idea. I've been struggling with this concept for months now, and the way you explained why it's not justified is incredibly reassuring :)
great video, I have noticed recently I also jumped of that train and coming to peace with myself again hasn't been easy. this video helped clear out some ideas, thanks
I'm kinda flabbergasted you only figured that out recently, didn't you read/watch Lord of the Rings? If you wear the ring of power; you become Sauron. Use the weapon of your enemy; become the enemy. Be a douche; become a douche. This is true for any reason or any end goal.
Your story sounds a lot like Cassian from Rogue One. He did all kinds of horrible things for the Rebel Alliance and needed to have that one victory to make it all worth it or in the end he would be just a spy and assassin.. We should all strive to do good things, but we should take a close look at the cost of achieving them as well.
I realized while sitting in my hotel room at the Sheraton for NerdCon that I was probably watching this while in the same building as John and/or Hank and I had zero chill.
GabdeVue there's a debate over the idea that punching Nazis is the right thing to do to stop them. The whole idea about punching modern Nazis is trying to take away their platform before they get power. But there is concern that it is becoming as fascist as them because it's using violent suppression of speech. There's debate over whether their current rhetoric counts as hate speech inciting violence so that the punching is more like self defense. There's debate over whether the "Nazis" being punched these last few weeks are even Nazis. From the dooblydoo, it sounds like Hank is addressing this but he could be talking about all of the protests and violence people associate with them this last year or so.
Nkvaa4 Very glad you brought this up. This is exactly the scenario I was thinking of when I watched this. Although I intensely dislike the "us vs them" false dichotomy that seems so prevalent lately, the sentiment of "when they go low, we go high" really resonates with me.
HoshiHikari thank you for taking the time to elaborate. Ok, i simply did not know that term. I thought it was some meme or current nerdfighter thing that I was unaware of. But the conundrum itself is familar. I often wonder, how my country would look like, if there hadn't been external forces getting rid of the Nazis. I also wonder the same about really bad warzones that many innocent people are caught up in today, where there is no "right side" to be on and any vacuum would be filled with yet another dangerous power. With the Nazis, it was pretty obvious, who the "bad guys" are - though I am from former eastern Germany and the stories of Grandmothers what happened when the Red Army haunt me to this day.
I discovered a new book thanks to you Hank! When you listed Andrew Wiggin, Frank Chalmers and Paul Atreides, I was definitely familiar with the first and third and loved the books they came from. I figured if you loved two of the same books I did, chances are I would love whatever book that second character came from. So I looked it up and I'm going to read "Red Mars" very soon. Thanks Hank!
My unwillingness to compromise my values was the exact reason I did not vote for Hillary Clinton, and I do not regret my decision at all. I only regret that I wasn't able to steer more people away from her and Trump.
Being a young man myself I still believe in Machiavellian principles as I'm quite cynical (but like to call myself a realist) and as such I can't see a way of accomplishing an ideal world without being willing to do bad things. The best I could hope for is to do what was necessary, take the responsibility on myself, recognise that what I had done was wrong and live/die with the consequences but leave the world in a state that someone else could follow and do things right after me. This line of thinking is inherently flawed but maybe its just the brash swagger of youth, maybe time will humble me and I'll follow an ethical path similar to yourself Hank. If that is so then I would be quite pleased as you and John give me hope, and make me doubt my pessimism.Great video, I'll see you next Friday.
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: _The Lord of the Rings_ and _Atlas Shrugged_. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." John Rogers en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Rogers
Kristen Marie If you google "objectivism (Ayn Rand)" and see how that might clash with a liberals world view, you will see why Hank doesn't like it very much. All this nonsense in this thread is simply hatred for a different veiw point, an us vs. them sort of thing. most people need to put down others perspectives by belittling it, and you see that in this thread, no doubt it will continue.
Well, I'm a big fan of you. I will help your power in my small way. The movement of science and truth is something you clearly love, and that is why I am a fan of you and the SciShow peeps.
No, clearly I meant criticizing Clinton on where she fails and complimenting on her strong points. In all his mentions of Clinton, Hank has done nothing but protect her from attacks. I'm a vlogbrothers fan for many years now, and they've always been the pro-Obama establishment, tumblr nerds...that's their little social bubble they're trapped in.
Dude, it literally takes a few simple clicks. I don't have the time to write an argumentative essay here, which seems to be what you're actually asking me to do. Go research on your own and then form your own opinion.
2:17 This is mu take on what you said. Try do act in a way that is self beneficial. So maybe hitler was trying to achieve a goal that he believed would be good (total control) Im not supporting hitler. What he did was wrong, but in his mind he was trying to achieve his goal. And like you said, he did awful things to try and accomplish those goals.
Don't ever stop doubting the little things you are doing that makes humanity work. I look back and think of how many times you've kept this human going
There was a highly publicized town hall meeting in my state recently that I feel like really relates with this. Politically I agreed with these angry citizens and while some of them were poised and eloquent, many were so enraged that they were booing and yelling. The opposite side of the political spectrum has been guilty of the same extreme action, but as Hank explains that doesn’t have to be the way. Civil discourse is possible.
And I was, hence, thinking of Machiavelli when I read the title. I think Dale Carnegie is a good rebut to this, came up to me when you were talking about trust
"Why couldn't we see this, you and I? We burn the present for the sake of a brighter future then act surprised when all it holds is ash." -Paranatural, Chapter 4
Can I just say that I am so happy you guys have stuck to the four minute videos rule? It makes it so much easier to keep up with you guys without being overwhelmed by 10-15 minute videos!
South Sudan is probably the most appropriate example of what you've described. fought for independence from the Islamic both Sudan and now they're fighting between themselves because now there's a tribal conflict.
Utilitarianism is a seductive mistress. Striking a balance is hard, and simple answers are tempting, espically those that give us permission to ignore our moral intuitions, and the crippling doubt that accompanies them. There comes a time when we have to acknowledge the facts: Moral is complex.
The real argument against it is simply the prisoner's dilemma(look it up). Working solely in your self-interest will yield a worse result than when you make some concessions.
GraveFable let me explain further though: making concessions would theoretically be the best but only if the other does it too, but that will never happen, simple game theory makes it so. This isn't entirely about morality it's about what's realistic as well. Although you might not get your desired result you will have to act in your self interest because the other will too. This is the problem of anarchy and it simply can't be solved. Only with some enforcement can everything get better. That's the sad sad reality.
I love this. It reminds of some words from Christopher Dawson: "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."
It was failing to realize what Hank has that caused Darkstalker to become an evil dragon. I wonder if anyone will understand this reference, though this is an old video, so people probably won't even see it.
Hank, you are really an inspiration. I love it when you do videos like this because you really make me think. You're a wonderful human being. Keep doing what you're doing. (Random sidenote: Although, I would prefer if you stopped singing Pinot Noir from Unbreakably Kimmy Schmidt in my dreams... It's rather...disturbing...)
I love this video, but I'm definitely going to have to rewatch it later when I'm more awake. There is so much truth and power and rawness behind this video, and it's beautiful and very inspirational, as well as mind-opening. Hopefully tomorrow I won't b le trying to function off less than three hours of sleep :) DFTBA, and thanks for an especially wonderful video Hank! (Really wishing I could be in Boston!)
You basically just explained the difference between the Jedi and the Sith. The Sith crave power to achieve their own ends, good or bad at any cost. The Jedi seek good, but do not compromise their values and do not seek power for themselves. (Idealogically, anyway, In practice things got a little blurred)
Congratulations you're conservative now!!!!! That means I'll probably see you at the clambake don't forget to sit in section B its the section closest to the Punchbowl and has the best view of the stage where the clowns do an amazing magic Act You'll love it!!!! Hey but if you get there first can you save me some of that guacamole dip? Thanks see you there.....
I've been wanting to make a video like this for a long time but I always felt like I had to qualify it too much. Like, I'm not trying to win a war, or keep my family alive. I'm just trying to make good things and put them on the internet.
I have so many advantages (race, gender, money, education) that make all of these things easier for me, so I feel bad being prescriptive. I don't really want this to be about how you should live your life, I just want it to be about how I want to live my life.
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What branch of ethics do you follow, Hank? Rule Utilitarianism?
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Apparantly, Hank was dangerously close to being an evil genius. Guess we really dodged a bullet with that one, didn't we?
Floris Bordewijk I kind of picture him as a Pinky and the Brain evil genius.
I guess that works, yeah!
That's the ultimate moral question.
Do the ends justify the means?
Is it all worth it in the end?
At what point does it stop being acceptable?
Does pineapple actually belong on a pizza?
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No.
No
The beginning.
No, yes, maybe, I don't know and I don't care.
Maybe.
Who knows?
Subjective.
Yes, it does. Pineapple-pizza is great.
What about pizza on pineapple. Is food-topping a two way street?
greg Bilotta you made me laugh out loud thank you
My favorite quote about this line of thought is "A good deed, done in the name of evil, is still good. Likewise an evil deed, done in the name of good, is still evil."
Arospace true, but what makes a deed good or bad deed if not subjective judgment that is always, at least partially, informed by its intent
You might like a quote from a TH-camr I watch. "Outrage may hang tyrants but it also burns witches." Vernaculis.
Weasely Midget that is a great quote.
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Weasely Midget +
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"
- Winston Abraeinstein
"You have given me the chance to teach my son an important lesson. That when good men look away, evil prevails."
"Act with wisdom, but act." Ventari's tablet.
lol I love gw2.
There isn't such thing as "good men". All humans are capable of both good and bad behavior. That's what means to be moral agents.
Be worry of pride. The easiest way to ensure humanity accomplishes nothing is to make them think that one of them has to win at the end.
Momento mori
Mary Vickers +
Mary Vickers +
memento*
Mary Vickers + - yup, non of us can outrun the hearse...
by the movement of the mulberry?
Why am I never mentioned in your videos? I'm your brother too. Right?
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Well Dumbledore was incredibly manipulative and horrible sometimes and everything worked out! But as always Hank, you're right. Great video!
If you succeed everyone praises you, if you fail everyone condemns you
nerd life Dumbledore is another example of a protagonist that inspires this perspective. I think those characters make for good books, but bad reality.
nerd life *Flashback to HPMOR*
SuperWild1 But Dumbledore in HPMOR did bad stuff (killing a pet rock, for example :D) knowing for certain that his actions will make world a better place. Prophecies and ethics don't really fit together, do they?
I wouldn't say he was horrible. Just morally questionable. He was good at heat but tripped the line with some of his actions.
So, did... did Hank once kill someone?
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The internet has a way of knowing your secrets, and also telling them.
... is... is that what happened to Dave?? D:
He did try to kill John with a hammer.
Haha! He's hinting. and you thought only John left clues
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This is so important. This is what I came here for. Thank you, Hank. I'm glad to see you so heavily contemplating such "deep" topics like this. This channel is always reminding me to try to be a consistently good person, and to always be working and changing.
On Another Note, That dear hank and john reference right there!
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It's not deep, condemning the "end justifies the means" statement is something that children's morning television does, and it's actually pretty stupid. In reality it's neither of the two extremes, actions and their consequences aren't separate, you always have to take both into accounts. A person who ends with terrible ends is not blameless just because he stuck with amiable means, no more than the person who does terrible things to achieve great things.
This is faux deep.
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This might be the video that made me realize I like Hank over John because I AM Hank among my John friends. We make each other better, too.
bad thing= putting off an assignment. good thing = watching this video
other good thing = possibly my channel (i guess good is relative) go check it anyway plzzzzz
Swolo "puts down glasses slowly"
....Well holy shit
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All ends don't justify all means, but some ends justify some means. Every choice is a cost-benefit analysis, and sometimes unfortunately a choice that is perfectly ethical just isn't on the table, and you have to choose the option that is likely to lead to the best outcome, accepting that you might screw it up royally in the process. Grownup life is hard like that.
LynxChan Utilitarianism !
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+Deena Fahed Actually just moral relativism, utilitarianism is one form of moral relativism but not the only kind.
I remember watching this video when it came out, and it really impacted the way I saw the world. Coming back to it three years later, it still holds up as one of my favorite YT videos, & reminds me why vlogbrothers is so meaningful to me.
"I've praised ideas above reality." Ahh. I'm a young person struggling with that.
That was a wonderful list. To add someone to it.
One big reason I am against Authoritarianism when it comes to positive progress is even if you obtain the change you desire, the only way to keep that change is to always maintain that fist (power). One violence is no longer looming over head, once you lose control of that power, things often will revert back to what they were. So real change can never be done through violence. It must be a slow, gradual, cultural change. Very much as Hank says, million of small peaceful nudges. These tiny nudges will have a far more lasting impact then change via authoritarian violence.
Emelenzia the only problem being that lots of people don't have the time left on this earth for those "tiny nudges" to take place, especially when your opponents can undo those nudges that you fought over for years with the swish of a pen. Imagine that; everything you've worked on for years eliminated within a month. What can be done then? If we always take one step forward and three steps backwards, we aren't moving forward.
Dan Young
I agree with basically everything you said, but what does it have to do with parties? Are you under the false impression that authoritarianism and the like are only on one side?
Their is no other way to say this: I am deeply in love with Hank Green, I am in love with his way of talking, his logic, his life, his person. Hank Green is not only someone who I admire but someone who I love and support. Go nerdfightera!
We'll never know how many supervillains this video prevented.
Last time I was this early, chom choms were called bananas.
"This thing doesn't exist" YESSS. Spot on! Future outcomes are never guaranteed, and we should live (and do good) in the present, for the sake of living and doing good in the present. You sound like a Buddhist, actually. :)
Progress is a direction, not a goal
That popped into my head the other day, would really like it if it took off
Yes, I like this. ^^
To always progress, is a goal though. IE- always taking actions that result in progress.
I don't think I've ever seen the other side of Hank's room before looool
3:59 that was close
My ethics teacher described it the best. Don't make choices that you can't live with. Because people and circumstances will change but those choices are with you forever.
"We burn the present for the sake of a brighter future and act surprised when all it holds is ash."
-Paranatural
"If the entire world lived as if the ends justified the means, then the means in themselves are going to be a terrifying end"
That sentence struck me. I was struck by it.
I am a producer and everyone can use whatever music they want on my page for their own profit use. Subscribing would really help.
nice work bro
this is the most real vlogbrothers video i've seen in a year.
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Based on the title and thumbnail I was expecting it to be about whether or not he supports punching Nazis, I like the more generalized approach he took to the broader topic.
My teacher asked us to right a fact using scientific notation with something really small I,having forgotten to look up a fact wrote the following fact ; The amount of lives I have=1*10^0. My teacher said "Its not really small is it?" I replied "its small enough to give me an existential crisis "
"If the entire world lived as if the Ends justify the Means, Then the Means in themselves are gonna be a terrifying End." Beautiful words, with an even better lesson.
I really admire the ability to admit that you changed your mind and once held an opinion that you disagree with now. I think that really hard in the current society especially when no one is forcing us to. I also think that it is a really important thing to be able to do. So that you for using your power (calling it what it is) and setting that example.
Read the _Dictator's Handbook_. I find it a reassuring and terrifying examination of why politicians do bad things to do good things.
This is why freedom of speech is more important than someone's subjective sensitivities.
That person will eventually get over it or eventually die, but people will keep needing communication indefinitely.
I have always been against "End Justify The Means" because by changing the means you change the end. Just as the reasoning for an action can change the way we view that action so too do the means of how we accomplish something change the overall goal. Just like how in this political climate those who say they are for social progression use aggressive, judgemental and sometimes lethal means to justify their "end" end up changing their "end" because of their own actions and reveal their ends to be petty and self-serving.
The amount of joy I felt when I recognized all three protagonists he named was quite a lot.
We should never think of other people as our pawns, or as the pawns of others, or of power. However, this means acknowledging people as active players who sometimes choose willingly to do bad things, in their own name or in the name of power. We should have empathy for those who seek to do bad things, but if you stand by and allow someone to do bad things, you are only lacking empathy for their victims.
Thank you for this very insightful video, Hank. There is not always a clear answer to these questions, but when we struggle for one, it is because we care.
I've never disliked a vlogbrothers video in at least 7 years of watching. It's finally happened!
I kinda agree but not to the point of Kantean absolutism. If you go down that path I think it leads to ineffectuality for the sole end of self-righteousness. For example while it is true tha many countries including the US overspend on defense, but if we just up and decided 'killing people is bad therefore no defense force whatsoever' we would invite greater suffering. At a certain point i think it becomes necessary to use bad means to attain certain ends, but I agree that we should only do with caution.
The problem with war is that on the international level there is no efectiv law
We would need an international court that judges over counrties that has support from enougth countries so that its rulings would be carried out
It wouldnt bring instant world peace but it would be like the cange from a civil war to a counrtie with due process
+TheAnonymmynona The thing you just suggested is a thing that already exists. You've probably heard of the Geneva Convention, and you've probably heard of world leaders being tried for war crimes. Both of those are exactly what you described.
It's also the case that the post-WWII liberal world order that the US/NATO have achieved is a sort of global public good. Everyone benefits from safe travel on the seas and relative stability between nation states--and the Untied States has benefited more than anyone. In that respect it makes sense that the US spends so much on defense--it gets the most out of the system it has helped create.
All government is based on violence. We don't like to believe it, but that is the truth. Americans should know that better than most (though I suspect most don't). Even the smallest regulation has the potential of causing death. But government provides enormous benefits and protection. The best we can do is to to acknowledge the violence, and take as many steps we can to minimize it. We need ethical systems that helps us accomplish that aim.
I know that sounds really profound and that state sanctioned violence is one of the tools in the toolbox granted to governments but it is not the only foundation or even the strongest foundation for building civilization. Take a look around you, the vast majority behave in a civilized manner most of the time, why is this? It can't be explained by fear of violent government retribution because the government isn't looking most of the time so anyone could do wrong and not be caught, yet they don't. Violence is there for those who exit the civilized social contract but it has no place within civilized society.
You know Hank, I was really happy that this video was the way it was.
Because it could've been like your comments section and man,
Your comments section needs to reevaluate themselves. I really appreciate you making this
Do you believe you've had this change of heart because you've already gained said influence and power? Doubt I'd get a reply but your perspective on this would be interesting
+
I think it's fine to refuse to do bad stuff if you're unclear on whether achieving your goal will be successful or if you're unclear on the worth of your goal. But damn, if I can be positive that a limited number of bad actions will yield an undeniably positive outcome, it's my freaking duty to do it. You were right in the first place, Hank, this is why the bad guys win more than they should.
Thank you for sharing this internal struggle and transformation with us.
I am realizing one reason why I love Vlogbrothers so much! I found y'all through Scishow and Hank. Love science, but I am a social science person too and have delved into personal development in a big way in my life time, which overtime has included a lot of personality typology. Meyers-Briggs Type Indicator talks about Sensors and Intuitives. I am an N, Intuitive and most of my family is as well. I miss the focus on pattern and possibility. It can lead to this type of depth, exploration and collaboration that is found in John and Hank's vlogs and interactions. So I am guessing you are both Intuitives. Having married a Sensor, I really miss this. And I am getting some of that vicariously here. Thank you. ❤️
Thank you for sharing this idea. I've been struggling with this concept for months now, and the way you explained why it's not justified is incredibly reassuring :)
memento mori... well, thanks for the existential crisis :p
"It's a shame we have to die my dear/No one's getting out of here alive." Any other Foo Fighter fans out there?
Quoting Washington from Hamilton; "Will you let your ideals blind you to reality?"
great video, I have noticed recently I also jumped of that train and coming to peace with myself again hasn't been easy. this video helped clear out some ideas, thanks
I'm kinda flabbergasted you only figured that out recently, didn't you read/watch Lord of the Rings? If you wear the ring of power; you become Sauron. Use the weapon of your enemy; become the enemy. Be a douche; become a douche. This is true for any reason or any end goal.
this is a very important concept to grasp, it is the difference between good and evil.
The concept of character and virtues and the enormous exertion it takes to actually mature and grow in wisdom is too frequently ignored.
Your story sounds a lot like Cassian from Rogue One.
He did all kinds of horrible things for the Rebel Alliance and needed to have that one victory to make it all worth it or in the end he would be just a spy and assassin..
We should all strive to do good things, but we should take a close look at the cost of achieving them as well.
I realized while sitting in my hotel room at the Sheraton for NerdCon that I was probably watching this while in the same building as John and/or Hank and I had zero chill.
When you steal all the diet Coke and you just saved like a ton of people
Don't steal all the diet Coke! MatPat needs it as fuel to make Game Theory. (And John needs Diet Dr. Pepper as fuel for... the myriad things he does.)
Is this because of the punching "Nazis" thing?
Nkvaa4 I thought the same thing, especially from the thumbnail. Sneaky Hank.
could you explain, please?
GabdeVue there's a debate over the idea that punching Nazis is the right thing to do to stop them. The whole idea about punching modern Nazis is trying to take away their platform before they get power. But there is concern that it is becoming as fascist as them because it's using violent suppression of speech. There's debate over whether their current rhetoric counts as hate speech inciting violence so that the punching is more like self defense. There's debate over whether the "Nazis" being punched these last few weeks are even Nazis.
From the dooblydoo, it sounds like Hank is addressing this but he could be talking about all of the protests and violence people associate with them this last year or so.
Nkvaa4 Very glad you brought this up. This is exactly the scenario I was thinking of when I watched this. Although I intensely dislike the "us vs them" false dichotomy that seems so prevalent lately, the sentiment of "when they go low, we go high" really resonates with me.
HoshiHikari thank you for taking the time to elaborate.
Ok, i simply did not know that term. I thought it was some meme or current nerdfighter thing that I was unaware of.
But the conundrum itself is familar.
I often wonder, how my country would look like, if there hadn't been external forces getting rid of the Nazis.
I also wonder the same about really bad warzones that many innocent people are caught up in today, where there is no "right side" to be on and any vacuum would be filled with yet another dangerous power.
With the Nazis, it was pretty obvious, who the "bad guys" are - though I am from former eastern Germany and the stories of Grandmothers what happened when the Red Army haunt me to this day.
I find the concept/phrase "more perfect" extremely useful.
Hi Hank you look great today.
Honestly I don’t even know how I got on this video but I swear this is exactly what I needed to hear thank you
momento mori...the new way to find out if someone is a nerdfighter?
Please no I'm a hardcore nerdfighter but I'm not caught up in the pod.
Or an English major :P
Eh... doubt that. Not specific
I discovered a new book thanks to you Hank! When you listed Andrew Wiggin, Frank Chalmers and Paul Atreides, I was definitely familiar with the first and third and loved the books they came from. I figured if you loved two of the same books I did, chances are I would love whatever book that second character came from. So I looked it up and I'm going to read "Red Mars" very soon. Thanks Hank!
Memento Vivere quia Memento Mori. Or somthing along those lines. My Latin is lacking sadly
God, you are so authentic. We need more people like you.
My unwillingness to compromise my values was the exact reason I did not vote for Hillary Clinton, and I do not regret my decision at all. I only regret that I wasn't able to steer more people away from her and Trump.
Being a young man myself I still believe in Machiavellian principles as I'm quite cynical (but like to call myself a realist) and as such I can't see a way of accomplishing an ideal world without being willing to do bad things. The best I could hope for is to do what was necessary, take the responsibility on myself, recognise that what I had done was wrong and live/die with the consequences but leave the world in a state that someone else could follow and do things right after me. This line of thinking is inherently flawed but maybe its just the brash swagger of youth, maybe time will humble me and I'll follow an ethical path similar to yourself Hank. If that is so then I would be quite pleased as you and John give me hope, and make me doubt my pessimism.Great video, I'll see you next Friday.
Is this somewhat why you dislike Ayn Rand so much? I'd love to see a book review of it because I'd like to know why you dislike it so much.
No adult should like Ayn Rand. Her writing is cool when you're a teenager, but toxic if you carry it into adulthood.
Kristen Marie odd that you mention Rand since she would agree with everything he said.
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: _The Lord of the Rings_ and _Atlas Shrugged_. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."
John Rogers
en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Rogers
Kristen Marie If you google "objectivism (Ayn Rand)" and see how that might clash with a liberals world view, you will see why Hank doesn't like it very much. All this nonsense in this thread is simply hatred for a different veiw point, an us vs. them sort of thing. most people need to put down others perspectives by belittling it, and you see that in this thread, no doubt it will continue.
Kristen Marie yes please
I am currently reading All the King's Men and this video was eerily relevant to the chapter I just read....
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Well, I'm a big fan of you. I will help your power in my small way. The movement of science and truth is something you clearly love, and that is why I am a fan of you and the SciShow peeps.
I don't think a Clinton apologist has any moral authority on this issue.
none of your business oh yeah? Well me too. And that's none of your business.
Follow his twitter and witness Hank turn a blind eye to Clinton's corruption, which is essentially "doing bad things to make good things happen."
No, clearly I meant criticizing Clinton on where she fails and complimenting on her strong points. In all his mentions of Clinton, Hank has done nothing but protect her from attacks. I'm a vlogbrothers fan for many years now, and they've always been the pro-Obama establishment, tumblr nerds...that's their little social bubble they're trapped in.
Dude, it literally takes a few simple clicks. I don't have the time to write an argumentative essay here, which seems to be what you're actually asking me to do. Go research on your own and then form your own opinion.
Paul Olsen 1+1= ??? hmmm so difficult. I dont even know, i mean. Wow, that question.
2:17 This is mu take on what you said. Try do act in a way that is self beneficial. So maybe hitler was trying to achieve a goal that he believed would be good (total control) Im not supporting hitler. What he did was wrong, but in his mind he was trying to achieve his goal. And like you said, he did awful things to try and accomplish those goals.
Surprisigly succinct summary of the same realizations that allowed me to stop drinking.
Don't ever stop doubting the little things you are doing that makes humanity work. I look back and think of how many times you've kept this human going
There was a highly publicized town hall meeting in my state recently that I feel like really relates with this. Politically I agreed with these angry citizens and while some of them were poised and eloquent, many were so enraged that they were booing and yelling. The opposite side of the political spectrum has been guilty of the same extreme action, but as Hank explains that doesn’t have to be the way. Civil discourse is possible.
I was just learning about Machiavelli this week in college!!! What a timely video, I love how universe works out
And I was, hence, thinking of Machiavelli when I read the title. I think Dale Carnegie is a good rebut to this, came up to me when you were talking about trust
Andrew Wiggin! OMG. I am so happy that Hank has read that book. I am part of a community ❤
"Why couldn't we see this, you and I? We burn the present for the sake of a brighter future then act surprised when all it holds is ash."
-Paranatural, Chapter 4
OMG! Thank you. I needed these words so badly today. (PS your hair looks great here)
I'm on the Machievellian train, toot toot! All aboard! By aboard I mean hogtied in front of it though.
You don't fight injustice with more injustice.
It's something you learn as you get older.
Damn- that's insanely obvious but I've never noticed it.......you sir, are a very smart man.
Can I just say that I am so happy you guys have stuck to the four minute videos rule? It makes it so much easier to keep up with you guys without being overwhelmed by 10-15 minute videos!
Shout out to you for figuring that out
South Sudan is probably the most appropriate example of what you've described. fought for independence from the Islamic both Sudan and now they're fighting between themselves because now there's a tribal conflict.
OKAY! Okay! Watched the whole thing to the end! Very good very good john👍🏾
Modern philosopher,incredible and unique random thought.
I love you both so much, I can't even begin to explain it.
Imagine having Hank as your dad and John as your uncle. You'd grow up to be such an amazing person.
Or Lelouch or Light. It's alright, we read different kinds of books, but I still get you.
Utilitarianism is a seductive mistress. Striking a balance is hard, and simple answers are tempting, espically those that give us permission to ignore our moral intuitions, and the crippling doubt that accompanies them. There comes a time when we have to acknowledge the facts: Moral is complex.
same goes for deonthology, of course.
The real argument against it is simply the prisoner's dilemma(look it up). Working solely in your self-interest will yield a worse result than when you make some concessions.
Prisoners dilemma is actually not relevant at all here.
Some explanation is to be desired with such a reply. Why not?
GraveFable let me explain further though: making concessions would theoretically be the best but only if the other does it too, but that will never happen, simple game theory makes it so. This isn't entirely about morality it's about what's realistic as well. Although you might not get your desired result you will have to act in your self interest because the other will too. This is the problem of anarchy and it simply can't be solved. Only with some enforcement can everything get better. That's the sad sad reality.
I love this. It reminds of some words from Christopher Dawson: "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."
It was failing to realize what Hank has that caused Darkstalker to become an evil dragon.
I wonder if anyone will understand this reference, though this is an old video, so people probably won't even see it.
Hank, you are really an inspiration. I love it when you do videos like this because you really make me think. You're a wonderful human being. Keep doing what you're doing.
(Random sidenote: Although, I would prefer if you stopped singing Pinot Noir from Unbreakably Kimmy Schmidt in my dreams... It's rather...disturbing...)
Memento vivere ;)
+Sl1pg8r - Daily Stuff and Things! PAH!
Holy crap, this actually makes sense...
I love this video, but I'm definitely going to have to rewatch it later when I'm more awake. There is so much truth and power and rawness behind this video, and it's beautiful and very inspirational, as well as mind-opening. Hopefully tomorrow I won't b le trying to function off less than three hours of sleep :) DFTBA, and thanks for an especially wonderful video Hank! (Really wishing I could be in Boston!)
Thank you for making this video, It was very enlightening.
You basically just explained the difference between the Jedi and the Sith. The Sith crave power to achieve their own ends, good or bad at any cost. The Jedi seek good, but do not compromise their values and do not seek power for themselves. (Idealogically, anyway, In practice things got a little blurred)
Congratulations you're conservative now!!!!! That means I'll probably see you at the clambake don't forget to sit in section B its the section closest to the Punchbowl and has the best view of the stage where the clowns do an amazing magic Act You'll love it!!!! Hey but if you get there first can you save me some of that guacamole dip? Thanks see you there.....
Influence is more to me than the revered silk road.