it's very pleasant to listen to You Lewis; when i finished reading 'Fragments' in 1982, i wasn't interested in other books for quiet a long time... then came Meetings with Remarkable Men and Beelzebub followed not much later. Greetings and I see you on part 3 and so on
Hi Driek. I went back and forth between fragments and the fourth way for years trying to deepen my understanding of the ideas. I saw all of the other books I read as auxiliaries in understanding Gurdjieff’s life and teachings further and deeper. I think we will reading meetings next. 👍
So according to Gurdjieff, we are not born with eternal souls, but those very few of us whom are presented (invitated?) the opportunity to become Conscious enough may through various esoteric means gain or become an eternal soul or being? I love much for Gurdjieff's work but some of it, like the above (if I'm indeed understanding it correctly?) just seems to me rather absurd. What are your thoughts on achieving an immortal soul?
Hey James. This is a great question and one I have thought a lot about. This is actually one aspect of Gurdjieff's system that I don't entirely ascribe to. Having studied Platonism and Neo-Platonism, and also the philosophy of the Bhagavad Gita, I find it hard to believe that human beings don't have an immortal soul. Perhaps it could be said that in our current state we don't have a 'connection' to the immortal soul, and through conscious efforts we can form that connection, but regarding the soul, I much prefer Platonism and Gita philosophy. I hope that clears it up for you somewhat, and I'd be happy to carry on the discussion.
@@bookclub5291 Thankyou for replying. Having only read Ouspensky's "In Search of the Miraculous" (and a few other articles) I really only have this one book as framework for Gerdjieff and don't know for certain if even he subscribed to such a notion? And Allan Watts said that Gurdjieff would often use certain methods that were akin to Zen Cohen's in some of his teachings. Perhaps this was one of those? As for myself I'm of the Advaita Vedanta school of thought. Particularly Nisargadatta Maharaj and Ramana Maharshi. And the Gita of course and Upanishads of Course. At the end of the day however I quite simply do not believe in beliefs. I can really only ascribe to that which experiential to myself. And even this must be closely scrutinized! For what is this "I" that believes it knows that which is being experienced? And is this "I" different from that which is being experienced? The usual age old question I guess lol.
@Book Club @James Moore Most likely, what he meant is that even though yes you have a soul that doesn't decay. BUT you have the obligation to evergyze it. Since our soul is unique to each one of us, and we have a classification, sort to say, in term's of characteristics. In the same way we shall be placed accordingly, to the next chapter after we pass on. Hence the way we played the game here, how much activated we,ve been in our lifetime we shall be moved in the relevant field area later.
Even 100 years ago, if you said certain things or attempted to state certain facts you would be labeled a Devil worshipper and killed on the spot This is why he speaks behind a Façade "the Answers are always hidden in plain sight" because the Wolves can only by definition of being a Wolf take everything literally "okiedonkah" or "telecoopsienmsisn" or howereve they spelt it,. for Example
@@bookclub5291 what is the point of an immortal soul if it has no vehicle of expression through which to manifest itself. It is the bodies we need to create .. we are born with a physical body, the 1st body. we need to work to create the 2nd 3rd and 4th. Only the 4th body is immortal within the limits of the solar system.
Yes, I am aware that there is a close connection. It is fascinating to me and I enjoy exploring the other traditions that share the same ideas and concepts. 🙏
@@bookclub5291 All this has much to do with Theosophy to which both, Ouspensky and G., refer in this chapter. The theosophical occult teaching is in many respects close to Vedanta philosophy, although does not fully coincide with it. G.'s interpretation in some details differs from that of pure Theosophy and Vedanta but seems to be essentially one with them. Even his example of "carriage", "horse", "driver" and "Master" can be found in Madame Blavatsky's "Secret Doctrine"! 🙂
It is quite an intimidating text to get through. I am hoping to make it accessible to more people who otherwise might not read it. Gurdjieff’s ideas are very important.
So well articulated thanks man
It’s my pleasure. Glad you found it of value. 🙏
It’s nice to wake up to a reading group! Thank you! ❤
Welcome! It’s good to have you. 😀🙏
it's very pleasant to listen to You Lewis; when i finished reading 'Fragments' in 1982, i wasn't interested in other books for quiet a long time... then came Meetings with Remarkable Men and Beelzebub followed not much later.
Greetings and I see you on part 3 and so on
Hi Driek. I went back and forth between fragments and the fourth way for years trying to deepen my understanding of the ideas. I saw all of the other books I read as auxiliaries in understanding Gurdjieff’s life and teachings further and deeper.
I think we will reading meetings next. 👍
Thank you
You're very welcome 🙏
Thanks, thanks, and thanks!
You're welcome! Glad you found it valuable 👍
❤❤❤❤
Well done.
😀
👍👍👍
Thank you .... Thank you
You are very welcome 🙏❤️
Thankyou!
You're welcome!
So according to Gurdjieff, we are not born with eternal souls, but those very few of us whom are presented (invitated?) the opportunity to become Conscious enough may through various esoteric means gain or become an eternal soul or being? I love much for Gurdjieff's work but some of it, like the above (if I'm indeed understanding it correctly?) just seems to me rather absurd. What are your thoughts on achieving an immortal soul?
Hey James. This is a great question and one I have thought a lot about.
This is actually one aspect of Gurdjieff's system that I don't entirely ascribe to. Having studied Platonism and Neo-Platonism, and also the philosophy of the Bhagavad Gita, I find it hard to believe that human beings don't have an immortal soul.
Perhaps it could be said that in our current state we don't have a 'connection' to the immortal soul, and through conscious efforts we can form that connection, but regarding the soul, I much prefer Platonism and Gita philosophy.
I hope that clears it up for you somewhat, and I'd be happy to carry on the discussion.
@@bookclub5291 Thankyou for replying. Having only read Ouspensky's "In Search of the Miraculous" (and a few other articles) I really only have this one book as framework for Gerdjieff and don't know for certain if even he subscribed to such a notion? And Allan Watts said that Gurdjieff would often use certain methods that were akin to Zen Cohen's in some of his teachings. Perhaps this was one of those?
As for myself I'm of the Advaita Vedanta school of thought. Particularly Nisargadatta Maharaj and Ramana Maharshi. And the Gita of course and Upanishads of Course.
At the end of the day however I quite simply do not believe in beliefs. I can really only ascribe to that which experiential to myself. And even this must be closely scrutinized! For what is this "I" that believes it knows that which is being experienced? And is this "I" different from that which is being experienced? The usual age old question I guess lol.
@Book Club @James Moore
Most likely, what he meant is that even though yes you have a soul that doesn't decay. BUT you have the obligation to evergyze it. Since our soul is unique to each one of us, and we have a classification, sort to say, in term's of characteristics. In the same way we shall be placed accordingly, to the next chapter after we pass on. Hence the way we played the game here, how much activated we,ve been in our lifetime we shall be moved in the relevant field area later.
Even 100 years ago, if you said certain things or attempted to state certain facts you would be labeled a Devil worshipper and killed on the spot
This is why he speaks behind a Façade
"the Answers are always hidden in plain sight" because the Wolves can only by definition of being a Wolf take everything literally
"okiedonkah" or "telecoopsienmsisn" or howereve they spelt it,. for Example
@@bookclub5291 what is the point of an immortal soul if it has no vehicle of expression through which to manifest itself. It is the bodies we need to create .. we are born with a physical body, the 1st body. we need to work to create the 2nd 3rd and 4th. Only the 4th body is immortal within the limits of the solar system.
Thanks! By the way, this classification of "bodies" agrees with that of adwaita vedanta.
Yes, I am aware that there is a close connection. It is fascinating to me and I enjoy exploring the other traditions that share the same ideas and concepts. 🙏
@@bookclub5291 All this has much to do with Theosophy to which both, Ouspensky and G., refer in this chapter. The theosophical occult teaching is in many respects close to Vedanta philosophy, although does not fully coincide with it. G.'s interpretation in some details differs from that of pure Theosophy and Vedanta but seems to be essentially one with them. Even his example of "carriage", "horse", "driver" and "Master" can be found in Madame Blavatsky's "Secret Doctrine"! 🙂
World soul:)
🙏❤️
Thn
Why are you doing this? Can people not read fragments for themselves?
You may have your reasons but your sense of with_knowledge knows your motives.
It is quite an intimidating text to get through. I am hoping to make it accessible to more people who otherwise might not read it. Gurdjieff’s ideas are very important.