I think to add on the army creation aspect and the hobbying side, TOW's list building is actually very very fun. There's a lot there, WAY more than AoS or 40k in terms of granular unit counts, upgrades, enhancements etc. To me this makes TOW my favorite
Thanks for the honest feedback, for me it shouldn’t be another competitive game, it should be a fun and narrative game where the rules help you tell an epic story
there are so many competitive GW games. I don't see why they wouldn't want one to be casual and highly narrative. ToW feels like it should be that game.
If there is a tournament scene some people will try to win, and when the rules are written as bad as in tow it is very easy to take advantage of that if you are a competitive player. The game is unfortunately in dire need of a comp system, nerfs on individual units will not fix it, to many fundamental rules that skew the game.
it took me about half a year to get an army and get it painted. I agree that at the more pro level, it does look like they accidently reinvented AOS. Love it anyway. Its colourful and can be quite chaotic. Watching a dark elf sorceress get eaten by her own vortex is a lot of fun.
Excellent and fair review. No shame in preferring AoS gameplay over Old World. For me, it’s simply the AoS world and lore that turn me off because I’m a classic fantasy guy. But I’m also a big fan of rank and flank over skirmish so Old World is for me. Happy gaming! 😊
I think it’s a great game, easily my favourite, but it’s not a beginners War Game in general, and it’s certainly better between friends in a casual setting. I do play competitively, and I love it, but it definitely doesn’t play the way WHFB should, as high end play requires lines instead of blocks, and dragons are ruling the day while infantry suffers. I have always preferred rank and flank and crunchy rules, and our group never stopped playing WHFB, switching between 6th, 8th, and Armies Project. We have been able to bring in new players. I’ve been building a chaos army for a guy who was interested. He’s going to paint them, but because he has no use of his left hand, he just can’t physically build them. We have 11 guys who play regularly. It was just four of us before TOW started, and at least two others are working on armies now. I’ve been supporting the Fantasy setting since 1993, and will continue to as long as it exists. Currently painting Dwarfs, with my Bret’s complete (except for a few pieces I couldn’t get yet), and WoC ready to go. As long as the models are available and I continue to have disposable income, I’ll buy them. I actually just played the Square Based GT ran in Toronto, and had a great time going 4-1 with my Bretonnians.
I had almost the exact same experience in my first old world game, my lord got KB'd on turn 2, peg knights killed all my stuff. I think some people just dont understand how to get people into games, even if you're an experienced gamer.
Funny. Not my experience, but I've seen this exact same scenario with 40k countless times. Including at the table next to mine this past Monday -- except the new player who "didn't mind playing a competitive list" got very loud and angry after his disastrous first game.
Its funny as happened to me in AOS. My first game I took my army box against someone who put a meta list together and he tabled me turn 2. I never played again as it just felt pointless. I didnt get that thing of; oh if I had done this or that I could have done better. Was just his units were so much better. Takes a pretty special person to introduce someone to a game that way. To prioritize there own power fantasy by bouncing someone out of the game
Love the vid. I was able to grab a BoC army for cheap from a raging aos player and plan to convert to ToW. So it’s nice to hear from someone their prospective of coming back. I myself have never played a regiments game, so hearing the part about reading up on the rules and interactions is a great tip for me to think about when I finally take the plunge into it. Please more videos like this of his journey!
In my opinion, TOW is definitely a specialist game. And that's not a bad thing! Super crunchy rules, super high model count, etc. Personally that's why I love it, and why I'm glad AOS also exists. AOS is meant to be more approachable.
I've been playing old world as my first war game. Ive got about 15 games under my belt so far. You're absolutely right that the game at the highest level the game is pretty broken. Swift stride makes infantry irrelevant. Monsters every where or 90+ archer blocks of poison shooting to counter them. Luckily I have a core group at my lgs that just plays fuffy lists not trying to meta game. It's very fun to smash infantry blocks against each other
Swift stride doesn’t make infantry useless. No step up makes infantry useless. Swift Stride is good, sure, but it’s also expensive and still just majority single wound models. It is in no part the problem with infantry. Bring back Step up and suddenly infantry is extremely useful again
@@Stonehorn There definitely is too much swift stride kicking around though. Should probably mostly be an elf and bretonnian thing and maybe less units with it there. I could be wrong but it seems like that keyword got spread around a little too liberally.
@@Stonehorn step up was shit and incentivized massive elite infantry blocks as the meta. Literally all you need to do is revert combat resolution to 6th/7th edition for infantry to be worth taking.
I’ll definitely be interested to hear what you both think after a few more games. I’ve been playing for long ( 6 th ). I feel this is the most balanced . It IS a specialized game, I feel it always was. That’s a good thing I’m still shocked so many people missed it . I’m know you all have lived both the hobby side and the retail side and I’m still endlessly fascinated with you takes. Thank you again.
My experience with AoS is that it always turns into a big fight in the middle of the table. Warhammer Old World and old school fantasy is more of a living chess game of maneuver and counter maneuver. It is not perfect, but I enjoy it more than AoS. But ultimately, I agree - play what you enjoy playing.
I am loving Old World. It captures the spirit of 5e, 6e and 7e. It is not a pick and and play after just reading the quick start rules game but then neither was WHFB. I remember WHFB was a game you “graduated” too after learning the basics of wargaming from another system. It won’t replace AoS but it is also important to remember they target different gaming demographics. Wargaming has grown so much in the last 10 years that both can coexist.
@chad534 that doesn't really work when different factions have very different ways of being fluffy. If cavalry are too good and someone wants to play their cool fluffy brettonnian Knight list and the chaos player wants to play their cool fluffy warriors bases listed, the brets are at a huge advantage, it's fine if the game is broken when people spam the same units or do weird stuff like units of 90 goblins but when a major, very common unit type is just fundamentally underpowered, fluffy lists are gonna be tilted too
@@thomassmall70 ya for sure, a game not being a competitive environment with regular meta shifting updates does not mean balance is irrelevant. in a game that wants fluffy players to get invested its important to make sure putting an army on the table that looks like you would expect that army to look will probably be decent, not the worst idea possible. you play dark elves you want some bricks of spears/swords, some crossbows, a unit of witch elves, a bolt thrower, a chariot, a dragon, a unit of cold ones and assassin somewhere in there. if thats a really bad idea and it will get completely tabled by someone with 4 units of dark riders and 8 small units of shades doing skirmish shenanigans then you dont have a fluffy game, you actually have a cut throat competitive game because only people studying the math and the meta are going to understand how to make a powerful army.
Old world is a decent game framework, but as you said you really need to have someone who has the same game goals as you. All dragons or peg knights will be a rough game if you're wanting to play classic fantasy. It'd be great if the framework fixed this, but putting restrictions on the army list building can actually lead to more fun imo!
I think the main thing is... these are tabletop games and not video games. It should be expected, to a degree, to be "social contract games" with house ruling and custom scenarios etc. If for no other reason that it's so EASY to do exactly because there is no computer forcing you to play any broken, unfun, or too powerful rules. Other than that the game doesn't have to be perfect, the most competitive or the biggest. Like you guys said its actually pretty great AoS is around now to big the more digestible game you can pick up and play relatively easier so Old World can be what it is.
The way I approach my Chaos army is that it is a multi system collection. I have models based for oldhammer, Old World and AoS. The daemons can be used in 40K (not that I have played 40K for a long time). This approach also allows me to keep down the count of the number of armies I have so I can convince myself that I don't have too many armies. Anyway, I don't see Old World as being in competition with AoS, except in regard to which base to put a particular model on. AoS competes with 40K, at least to me. These are similar games and it just depends on whether one prefers fantasy or scifi. Old World is a completely different game from AoS. People just think they are the same as a model collection can overlap both games. Looking forward to Jay's Old World journey.
I still have my old armies and love them, but am also finding it difficult to return. As much as I love the setting and miniatures, in the 10 years since WFB ended I‘ve been playing other games and now coming back to warhammer I find it antiquated and cumbersome. I think other rulesets do the whole ‘rank and flank‘ gameplay better nowadays.
@@Ozariig I‘ve been mainly playing Kings of War, but also a bit of Oathmark. Recently I‘ve been looking into smaller scale mass battle games and I‘d like to try Fantastic Battles by Irregular Wars.
Bringing back TOW was a chance to modernize WFB and relaunch it with better, quicker rules. Instead they opted for memberberries and hoped to milk the old grognards for a couple of years.
I can definitely understand the game isn’t for everyone, just like AoS and 40k simply wasn’t for me. I appreciate you guys seeming to see that as well, I think it’s bigger than GW expected so hopefully it will be supported for a while but it will stay a specialist game most likely. The rules is 90% there just needs some rebalances imo
I’m curious about your comment about the game rules being tougher to get into. I’ve been away from all gaming for a few years and my first few games of 40K 10th were so different than what I remember and the rules, with all of the detachments and enhancements and the primaries and secondaries, it seems like it isn’t the easiest to just slide into. I’ve never played AoS so I can’t say and maybe the years of playing fantasy has me biased, but I’m genuinely curious how it is tougher to get in to.
There are a couple of factors, - Model procurement, most AOS or 40K you can walk in a buy exactly the stuff you want off the shelf most of the time because there is a regular model kit for it. ToW you may struggle to find the exact kit because its mentioned in the book but not on any website or store. (wasn't re released etc..) - Unit Profiles in AoS or 40K tend to just tell you what they do very straight forward. Roll 3s to hit, re-reroll charge etc.. In ToW you will see a bank of 10 or so stats which reference tables, then there is a potentially 6-7 rules the unit has that you have to memorize from the rulebook. Like swiftstride, first charge, quick shot, regeneration.. etc.. A lot of these have further caveats that reference other rules. Like first charge causes 'disruption' which then has to be found else ware in the book. But if you have stubborn that may not apply etc.. The point is more so that, you get into the move, shoot, assault with little to no game knowledge in the 40ks and AoSs where as there is a bit more to get through in ToW at the start. Both examples ramp up for sure in the higher levels and end up in similar places.
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 thanks for the detailed reply. I agree that the base rules for 40K(and as explained AoS) are more streamlined and there are much less to learn. As I said, it’s probably just my previous experience at Old World that colors my view. I’ve been on the fence about jumping into AoS, I think it has the best overall model range and I can find something to like with about every faction. As a side note, I don’t want TOW to replace AoS, I like it where it’s at, GW tends to tinker with the game when it’s not a flagship. As you stated it would be nice if models were available when you wanted to order them though.
I’m loving Old World hobby and currently building several armies, haven’t played a single game yet and not too bothered if I don’t get around to it either I’m just glad the game is back, hopefully GW just keeps it going in the background and AOS can have centre stage, TOW is definitely not for everyone given the huge hobby commitment needed it’s probably only diehard fans that will keep it going as a niche game which I think is actually a good thing
From playing old world alot. It's a game for dads and dad aged people. The rules are complex but stable. Unit type balance has always been an issue for rank and flanks. I would say for the people who want this game to exist it's really good. If you're 10-15 years old, probably not going to be the game (more the people playing) for you.
Interestingly, locally, the FLGS owner wanted to do some “comp” rules to tone down the herohammer aspect of TOW and the players said no. You hear lots of suggestions to “fix” the game. Rule of three, max 25% on characters, playing at 1999pts to limit access to the more powerful units, re-instituting “step-up” for infantry. I’m not sure what general modifications should be made vs just mixing things up a little with league/tournament specific limitations on some of the major op stuff.
Regional popularity is definitely a thing. Our data encompasses mostly southern Ontario (~10 million pop). Dozens of LGS with different communities. So far we see that Old World is back with a fantastic group of players just enjoying the game with some regular events. But the actual sales of kits is very modest. Most of the player base just dusted off their collections and picked up a rulebook.
I play games for the setting mainly. The rules are what they are and i think they work fine. Loved getting back into the Old World! Im not that many games into it yet though.
I super appreciated the video and play quite a few other games along with a never used TK TOW army I just built. I was going to put a few of the other games aside and focus on learning TOW but having heard the real description I’m binning it🤣 I do not have enough time to focus and study one set of rules when there are so many good games out in the wild.
My friend was super hyped for old world, hes rebasing a bunch of his old bretonnians, dwarves, and other armies. I told him I would at least try it with him eventually, just taking my vampire stuff from age of sigmar and some 3d printed movement trays for circle bases. The 200+ pages of rules is pretty intimidating though. The other thing is I don't really like any of the factions with their 20+ year old models. Dark elves, vampire counts, and maybe skaven were what I would have been interested in and I am not sure how good the downloadable index rules are.
I enjoy your real-style show and that you're not trying too hard to be youtube-y. To kick the audio quality up a notch very easily, run your episode through Adobe podcast enhance and it'll cut out the static hum.
The TOW ruleset is abysmally lacking. Tried it and now I'm going back to 8th edition. The moment I decided to go back to 8th I felt happy about warhammer again.
@@brianabela4533 The main things for me are: no step up in combat (the most frustrating mechanic ever in warhammer), no magic phase, no winds of magic or power dice, really lacklustre magic. Good things for me are the breaktest mechanic, and slightly shorter charge moves. However the charge moves would be better of without paying for wheeling IMO, it is just annoying and bogs down the gameplay. Also I decided to repaint and rebase my Empire army, and I was used to Empire actually being able to fight in 8th edition, and now they simply can't fight anything above a goblin and be expected to win. The Empire is in such a poor place that I really can't imagine how they are going to be helped in there arcane journal, I suspect that they will be as bad as they are now and just stay that way until an eventual new edition (with step up hopefully).
@@brianabela4533 I have played 8th ed as actively as possible between 2019-2023. I attended 5 tournaments, painted 3 armies and I've appeared on a couple of Swedish Batreps on youtube. I watched the entire old world wars on MWG a couple of times, and I watched and followed maybe 4 other channels making 8th ed batreps. Since TOW came out, I have found 1 single battle report interesting. I've tried watching a bunch, I don't know how many, maybe 50... And also I've played 5 games myself, and the games is just atrociously bad. Sure 8th edition had its flaws, but TOW is one big flaw imo. The moment I decided to go back to 8th edition, last week actually, I feelt instantly more happy about my hobby. It felt really good.
AOS offers a much easier access than TOW but is not easier to master. In TOW the rules needs more time and effort to digest but once done you can read any game, however your opponent is. In AOS you will need to digest not only the rules but also all armies specific abilities, combos and tricks that impact in a much deeper manner the gameplay than in TOW. Beyond that, comparing both games in regards to their gameplay would be the same than comparing orange and apple. One is still a wargame when the other became a board game. And that's ok :-)
I’d agree with most of the things you mentioned about it altogether. Will tow replace aos, no, at least not in a total view (it kinda did however for me😂😅) Both games are good in their own way and as it currently stands I think tow has a good chance in being a game. Not for everybody not the game gw will be keen on making propaganda with but there are and will be people keen in just playing tow. As for the brutality in that game, well I’d say it like this. Compared to aos it’s probably similar. There are army compositions that can just destroy the opposing forces and currently the double turn in aos isn’t much helpful to counter that either
I have fond memories of running demo games of 5th edition Fantasy while working in GW retail, and I disagree with your statement that Fantasy was NEVER a good game for new gamers. Our store sold nearly as many starter box sets of Fantasy as 40k, and so did all the other GW stores in our region. It wasn’t until later editions when bloat set in (rules, model count, etc) that it became increasingly harder and harder to get people to either start out in the hobby, or to start new additional armies once they did get into the game. The setting was easy for newbies to grasp and feel familiar in, and with the proper shop support, the game sold extremely well.
I love Geometry Wars! It doesn't sell well though. And as you said there are imbalance issues. Some units are just so good that without a comp pack 90% of some books are just not worth taking vs that other op 10%.
No argument with what you're saying here, as a huge TOW fan. TOW is a fantastic game but it really works best when played with friends who are more interested in having a good experience, rather than in roflstomping someone with the most tweaked out unit. Absolutely agree with your comment about the need for the social contract, basically. It's a fantastic game experience when you play it that way. Your comment about it being a smaller game and that giving it the scope to be the best possible game for that audience resonates with me, too. The kind of experience I want out of TOW isn't really compatible with what GW wants from AOS or 40k. There are plenty of people whose best possible game experience is AOS and I'm happy they have that; I'm just happy to have this instead. Looking forward to seeing how it goes when you're playing more social-contract type lists.
the game does have some first edition jank to work out, and its unfortunate that melee infantry is the worst kind of unit when to me the biggest attraction of a rant and flank game is the ability to play out games that look like big fantasy battles without taking forever moving a hundred individual models at a time. Still, I've had a lot of fun with it.
I was disappointed they didn't redo the Orc plastics, I'll jump in if they do and they look cool. I already had my fill of the old models many years ago.
I dropped whfb back in 8th and picked up KoW. Still use my old armies for KoW today and I’m not sure whow would bring me back. Just seems to be too messy and unbalanced and games take forever
I also hate the way people refer to "optimizable micro-management rules minutiae" as "tactical." Because it's just not a "tactic" to know that, for example -25mm is technically 99% of an inch so models on 25mm bases get to be "within 1 inch" of a model 2 rows in front of them -the objectives are always spaced X inches apart so you can use them to make Guess range weapons not a Guess -if you move your unit at so and so an angle you cant technically fight them ever because of such and such a rule These are not tactics, there is no DECISION being made because there is never a drawback to not making use of the rules wording quirk that makes the thing always perform X% better. A "tactic" is deciding that this unit is going to move this direction to do this thing, instead of that thing. It's deciding youll spend a point you have on this, or on that. Decisions with trade offs that you make at the tabletop and not before the game are tactics.
Sounds like maybe you didn't have the best first game :( As someone whose taught a few new people how to play it sounds like a lot of players are forgetting or just don't know the fundamentals of teaching someone or giving them a good experience and introduction. Bringing something like pegasus knights or dragon lords or all 360 like you mentioned to someones first game is very cringe behaviour. I think maybe some table top hobbyists need to a bit more empathetic and mindful when it comes to this sort of thing :)
I think its a bit of column A and B. I absolutely believe with tabletop games especially people should be willing and even expect to do some social contracting and maybe even a little rules tweaking but the designers of the game should also be doing their due diligence in making a balanced game within reason. Otherwise why are we paying for their rulebooks?
I fell out of love with WFB in the late 90's. It was just too cumbersome and tedious. People thinking it's going to replace AoS are kidding themselves.
AoS vs TOW... I don’t think either game is simple to play well. Yes, the basic mechanics of AoS are pretty easy to pick up quickly, but just knowing the basics of movement and combat will not make you a good player. GW has just moved the complexity from the rule book to the battle scrolls.
I want to play OW but I've got my hands full trying to play 'keepy uppy' with Heresy. My active Heresy group has mostly plateaued this year. These games will struggle to grow themselves due to how dense the rules are. That's the main hurdle we have with drawing in players for Heresy.
main issue with getting people 'off the street' playing TOW is that it essentially doesn't play as what it is billed as, a rank and flank. The simple concept of manouvre units to score the most points in combat won't get you very far compared to studying the meta.
Dude played peg knight spam against you in your first game. Riiight. This would be like me turning up to someone's first 40k game with a competitive meta list and dumpstering you. What a complete strawman argument.
Well, that’s your opinion and it sounds like you played with what I call a bad player. If you feel like you’re playing against a rules lawyer than you’re playing against someone I wouldn’t play more than once. And that’s any game. Your experience is honestly your opponent you’re playing. If your opponent is a “win at all cost, screw being a fun opponent” you’re going to have a horrible experience. Sounds like you played a bad player. But as a game store owner you do what’s best for your store. But your opinion sounds super biased and if you think 40k or other games are more balanced you’re being dishonest. But if I heard you saying this at the store I’m not sure I would purchase from your store. I would most likely find a new store to play at. Because this sounds like you’re just hating on the game and saying only “those players” play it. Kind of insulting. Not because you didn’t have a good experience but you completely shit on my game. It wasn’t a good conversation because my experience first time was amazing and it didn’t take too long to learn. But I’m not an idiot but I’m also not a “rules lawyer”. Thanks for that.
To be honest I’m not going to be watching further videos. Every video you release on Old World has been super negative and you’re always shocked when it does well. You both sound like you want the game to fail and you have no good things to say about the game. Have a good day.
You are very emotionally invested here mate. Take a step back, take a breath, and realize that this is just a stupid video and doesn't matter. Take care all the best.
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 I’m autistic and get bothered by people who are overly negative about things that are my special interests. But you have to admit you have been especially harsh on Old World for a while now and your experience that you talk about has been the opposite of mine. I dislike 40K now because the community is the most toxic community I’ve ever played in. It might be the money maker but the players make playing the game not fun. So I’m just telling you there’s being honest and there’s being biased about a game you clearly haven’t had the experience other players have. Your negativity brought out mine. Thing about human psychology is that when you’re being negative you trigger the negativity in others and that creates a negative opinion in one way or another. For some it will make them feel negative towards TOW and others will feel negative against your channel. And I may be autistic and have issues controlling my emotional responses but I am no idiot. Write me off as one at your own expense.
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I think to add on the army creation aspect and the hobbying side, TOW's list building is actually very very fun. There's a lot there, WAY more than AoS or 40k in terms of granular unit counts, upgrades, enhancements etc. To me this makes TOW my favorite
Thanks for the honest feedback, for me it shouldn’t be another competitive game, it should be a fun and narrative game where the rules help you tell an epic story
there are so many competitive GW games. I don't see why they wouldn't want one to be casual and highly narrative. ToW feels like it should be that game.
This! I'm an AoS player and I hate how comp-focused it's become. TOW feels like an escape from all that
If there is a tournament scene some people will try to win, and when the rules are written as bad as in tow it is very easy to take advantage of that if you are a competitive player. The game is unfortunately in dire need of a comp system, nerfs on individual units will not fix it, to many fundamental rules that skew the game.
Games by there very nature are competitive. Sounds like you are more interest in joining a book club?
@@jamesespinosa690 incorrect
it took me about half a year to get an army and get it painted. I agree that at the more pro level, it does look like they accidently reinvented AOS. Love it anyway. Its colourful and can be quite chaotic. Watching a dark elf sorceress get eaten by her own vortex is a lot of fun.
Excellent and fair review. No shame in preferring AoS gameplay over Old World. For me, it’s simply the AoS world and lore that turn me off because I’m a classic fantasy guy. But I’m also a big fan of rank and flank over skirmish so Old World is for me. Happy gaming! 😊
I think it’s a great game, easily my favourite, but it’s not a beginners War Game in general, and it’s certainly better between friends in a casual setting. I do play competitively, and I love it, but it definitely doesn’t play the way WHFB should, as high end play requires lines instead of blocks, and dragons are ruling the day while infantry suffers.
I have always preferred rank and flank and crunchy rules, and our group never stopped playing WHFB, switching between 6th, 8th, and Armies Project.
We have been able to bring in new players. I’ve been building a chaos army for a guy who was interested. He’s going to paint them, but because he has no use of his left hand, he just can’t physically build them. We have 11 guys who play regularly. It was just four of us before TOW started, and at least two others are working on armies now.
I’ve been supporting the Fantasy setting since 1993, and will continue to as long as it exists. Currently painting Dwarfs, with my Bret’s complete (except for a few pieces I couldn’t get yet), and WoC ready to go. As long as the models are available and I continue to have disposable income, I’ll buy them. I actually just played the Square Based GT ran in Toronto, and had a great time going 4-1 with my Bretonnians.
I had almost the exact same experience in my first old world game, my lord got KB'd on turn 2, peg knights killed all my stuff. I think some people just dont understand how to get people into games, even if you're an experienced gamer.
Funny. Not my experience, but I've seen this exact same scenario with 40k countless times. Including at the table next to mine this past Monday -- except the new player who "didn't mind playing a competitive list" got very loud and angry after his disastrous first game.
@francoisst-pierredubois4022 yea you gotta be respectful even if it feels bad, I for sure learned lots of things not to do
Its funny as happened to me in AOS. My first game I took my army box against someone who put a meta list together and he tabled me turn 2.
I never played again as it just felt pointless. I didnt get that thing of; oh if I had done this or that I could have done better. Was just his units were so much better.
Takes a pretty special person to introduce someone to a game that way. To prioritize there own power fantasy by bouncing someone out of the game
Love the vid. I was able to grab a BoC army for cheap from a raging aos player and plan to convert to ToW. So it’s nice to hear from someone their prospective of coming back. I myself have never played a regiments game, so hearing the part about reading up on the rules and interactions is a great tip for me to think about when I finally take the plunge into it. Please more videos like this of his journey!
In my opinion, TOW is definitely a specialist game. And that's not a bad thing! Super crunchy rules, super high model count, etc. Personally that's why I love it, and why I'm glad AOS also exists. AOS is meant to be more approachable.
I've been playing old world as my first war game. Ive got about 15 games under my belt so far. You're absolutely right that the game at the highest level the game is pretty broken. Swift stride makes infantry irrelevant. Monsters every where or 90+ archer blocks of poison shooting to counter them.
Luckily I have a core group at my lgs that just plays fuffy lists not trying to meta game. It's very fun to smash infantry blocks against each other
Swift stride doesn’t make infantry useless. No step up makes infantry useless.
Swift Stride is good, sure, but it’s also expensive and still just majority single wound models. It is in no part the problem with infantry. Bring back Step up and suddenly infantry is extremely useful again
@@Stonehorn There definitely is too much swift stride kicking around though. Should probably mostly be an elf and bretonnian thing and maybe less units with it there. I could be wrong but it seems like that keyword got spread around a little too liberally.
@@williampounds5191 I think anything bigger than Heavy Cavalry should have it removed unless they fly
@@Stonehorn step up was shit and incentivized massive elite infantry blocks as the meta. Literally all you need to do is revert combat resolution to 6th/7th edition for infantry to be worth taking.
@@TeWakaOAoraki the point of rank and flank is large infantry blocks. The points costs of most units prevent blocks from getting too large
I’ll definitely be interested to hear what you both think after a few more games. I’ve been playing for long ( 6 th ). I feel this is the most balanced . It IS a specialized game, I feel it always was. That’s a good thing I’m still shocked so many people missed it . I’m know you all have lived both the hobby side and the retail side and I’m still endlessly fascinated with you takes. Thank you again.
Thanks so much :)
My experience with AoS is that it always turns into a big fight in the middle of the table.
Warhammer Old World and old school fantasy is more of a living chess game of maneuver and counter maneuver.
It is not perfect, but I enjoy it more than AoS. But ultimately, I agree - play what you enjoy playing.
I am loving Old World. It captures the spirit of 5e, 6e and 7e. It is not a pick and and play after just reading the quick start rules game but then neither was WHFB. I remember WHFB was a game you “graduated” too after learning the basics of wargaming from another system. It won’t replace AoS but it is also important to remember they target different gaming demographics. Wargaming has grown so much in the last 10 years that both can coexist.
My biggest issue with the game is that melee infantry are the worst unit type and are also the most common unit type.
Because it’s not a meta game.
yeah they need to fix this, i think they will eventually but were probably talking ToW 2.0
@chad534 that doesn't really work when different factions have very different ways of being fluffy.
If cavalry are too good and someone wants to play their cool fluffy brettonnian Knight list and the chaos player wants to play their cool fluffy warriors bases listed, the brets are at a huge advantage, it's fine if the game is broken when people spam the same units or do weird stuff like units of 90 goblins but when a major, very common unit type is just fundamentally underpowered, fluffy lists are gonna be tilted too
@@thomassmall70 ya for sure, a game not being a competitive environment with regular meta shifting updates does not mean balance is irrelevant.
in a game that wants fluffy players to get invested its important to make sure putting an army on the table that looks like you would expect that army to look will probably be decent, not the worst idea possible.
you play dark elves you want some bricks of spears/swords, some crossbows, a unit of witch elves, a bolt thrower, a chariot, a dragon, a unit of cold ones and assassin somewhere in there.
if thats a really bad idea and it will get completely tabled by someone with 4 units of dark riders and 8 small units of shades doing skirmish shenanigans then you dont have a fluffy game, you actually have a cut throat competitive game because only people studying the math and the meta are going to understand how to make a powerful army.
@@thomassmall70bret knights of the realm lose to warriors
Old world is a decent game framework, but as you said you really need to have someone who has the same game goals as you. All dragons or peg knights will be a rough game if you're wanting to play classic fantasy. It'd be great if the framework fixed this, but putting restrictions on the army list building can actually lead to more fun imo!
This is true for any GW game though. Play a competitive list vs a narrative list in 40K or AoS and see what happens
I want more of Jay’s old world adventures!
I think the main thing is... these are tabletop games and not video games. It should be expected, to a degree, to be "social contract games" with house ruling and custom scenarios etc. If for no other reason that it's so EASY to do exactly because there is no computer forcing you to play any broken, unfun, or too powerful rules. Other than that the game doesn't have to be perfect, the most competitive or the biggest. Like you guys said its actually pretty great AoS is around now to big the more digestible game you can pick up and play relatively easier so Old World can be what it is.
The way I approach my Chaos army is that it is a multi system collection. I have models based for oldhammer, Old World and AoS. The daemons can be used in 40K (not that I have played 40K for a long time). This approach also allows me to keep down the count of the number of armies I have so I can convince myself that I don't have too many armies.
Anyway, I don't see Old World as being in competition with AoS, except in regard to which base to put a particular model on. AoS competes with 40K, at least to me. These are similar games and it just depends on whether one prefers fantasy or scifi. Old World is a completely different game from AoS. People just think they are the same as a model collection can overlap both games.
Looking forward to Jay's Old World journey.
I still have my old armies and love them, but am also finding it difficult to return. As much as I love the setting and miniatures, in the 10 years since WFB ended I‘ve been playing other games and now coming back to warhammer I find it antiquated and cumbersome. I think other rulesets do the whole ‘rank and flank‘ gameplay better nowadays.
out of curiosity, which rank & flank games do you prefer?
@@Ozariig A song of Ice and Fire the miniatures game scratches my itch that Fantasy left.
@@Ozariig I‘ve been mainly playing Kings of War, but also a bit of Oathmark. Recently I‘ve been looking into smaller scale mass battle games and I‘d like to try Fantastic Battles by Irregular Wars.
Bringing back TOW was a chance to modernize WFB and relaunch it with better, quicker rules. Instead they opted for memberberries and hoped to milk the old grognards for a couple of years.
@@pforsonagreed, I think KoW is simply a better game and you can use your tow armies
I can definitely understand the game isn’t for everyone, just like AoS and 40k simply wasn’t for me. I appreciate you guys seeming to see that as well, I think it’s bigger than GW expected so hopefully it will be supported for a while but it will stay a specialist game most likely. The rules is 90% there just needs some rebalances imo
I’m curious about your comment about the game rules being tougher to get into. I’ve been away from all gaming for a few years and my first few games of 40K 10th were so different than what I remember and the rules, with all of the detachments and enhancements and the primaries and secondaries, it seems like it isn’t the easiest to just slide into.
I’ve never played AoS so I can’t say and maybe the years of playing fantasy has me biased, but I’m genuinely curious how it is tougher to get in to.
There are a couple of factors,
- Model procurement, most AOS or 40K you can walk in a buy exactly the stuff you want off the shelf most of the time because there is a regular model kit for it. ToW you may struggle to find the exact kit because its mentioned in the book but not on any website or store. (wasn't re released etc..)
- Unit Profiles in AoS or 40K tend to just tell you what they do very straight forward. Roll 3s to hit, re-reroll charge etc..
In ToW you will see a bank of 10 or so stats which reference tables, then there is a potentially 6-7 rules the unit has that you have to memorize from the rulebook. Like swiftstride, first charge, quick shot, regeneration.. etc.. A lot of these have further caveats that reference other rules. Like first charge causes 'disruption' which then has to be found else ware in the book. But if you have stubborn that may not apply etc..
The point is more so that, you get into the move, shoot, assault with little to no game knowledge in the 40ks and AoSs where as there is a bit more to get through in ToW at the start. Both examples ramp up for sure in the higher levels and end up in similar places.
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 thanks for the detailed reply. I agree that the base rules for 40K(and as explained AoS) are more streamlined and there are much less to learn. As I said, it’s probably just my previous experience at Old World that colors my view.
I’ve been on the fence about jumping into AoS, I think it has the best overall model range and I can find something to like with about every faction.
As a side note, I don’t want TOW to replace AoS, I like it where it’s at, GW tends to tinker with the game when it’s not a flagship. As you stated it would be nice if models were available when you wanted to order them though.
I’m loving Old World hobby and currently building several armies, haven’t played a single game yet and not too bothered if I don’t get around to it either I’m just glad the game is back, hopefully GW just keeps it going in the background and AOS can have centre stage, TOW is definitely not for everyone given the huge hobby commitment needed it’s probably only diehard fans that will keep it going as a niche game which I think is actually a good thing
From playing old world alot. It's a game for dads and dad aged people. The rules are complex but stable. Unit type balance has always been an issue for rank and flanks. I would say for the people who want this game to exist it's really good. If you're 10-15 years old, probably not going to be the game (more the people playing) for you.
I'm 35, played 3 editions of whfb, and you couldn't drag me back to that awful game structure if TOW army boxes were 5 dollars.
I’d like to hear more about your hobby adventures. It was a good video. I also think it’s smart that it’s a specialist game now.
Interestingly, locally, the FLGS owner wanted to do some “comp” rules to tone down the herohammer aspect of TOW and the players said no. You hear lots of suggestions to “fix” the game. Rule of three, max 25% on characters, playing at 1999pts to limit access to the more powerful units, re-instituting “step-up” for infantry. I’m not sure what general modifications should be made vs just mixing things up a little with league/tournament specific limitations on some of the major op stuff.
This is also a classic problem, you nerf 'x' and then 'y' becomes the new 'x'
It must be a regional/country thing. Very popular here, with local hobby shops and GW stores being out of stock. Especially the new releases
Out of stock =\= selling well or popular.
Nothing seems like it’s selling out here in Canada
I agree, I live in CT and it seems very popular, local shop has 10-12 consistent players every weekend
Regional popularity is definitely a thing. Our data encompasses mostly southern Ontario (~10 million pop). Dozens of LGS with different communities. So far we see that Old World is back with a fantastic group of players just enjoying the game with some regular events. But the actual sales of kits is very modest. Most of the player base just dusted off their collections and picked up a rulebook.
I play games for the setting mainly. The rules are what they are and i think they work fine. Loved getting back into the Old World! Im not that many games into it yet though.
I like this one, real world review. When will you get more shirts in? Need to rep GOW in Dallas
I super appreciated the video and play quite a few other games along with a never used TK TOW army I just built. I was going to put a few of the other games aside and focus on learning TOW but having heard the real description I’m binning it🤣 I do not have enough time to focus and study one set of rules when there are so many good games out in the wild.
What type of person brings a peg knight deathstar to play against a friend playing his first game of ToW? Holy hell.
My friend was super hyped for old world, hes rebasing a bunch of his old bretonnians, dwarves, and other armies. I told him I would at least try it with him eventually, just taking my vampire stuff from age of sigmar and some 3d printed movement trays for circle bases. The 200+ pages of rules is pretty intimidating though. The other thing is I don't really like any of the factions with their 20+ year old models. Dark elves, vampire counts, and maybe skaven were what I would have been interested in and I am not sure how good the downloadable index rules are.
I enjoy your real-style show and that you're not trying too hard to be youtube-y. To kick the audio quality up a notch very easily, run your episode through Adobe podcast enhance and it'll cut out the static hum.
The TOW ruleset is abysmally lacking.
Tried it and now I'm going back to 8th edition. The moment I decided to go back to 8th I felt happy about warhammer again.
Is it the core rules or the army books? I think the core rules have some great ideas, but the army rules seem to create the real problem.
@@brianabela4533 The main things for me are: no step up in combat (the most frustrating mechanic ever in warhammer), no magic phase, no winds of magic or power dice, really lacklustre magic.
Good things for me are the breaktest mechanic, and slightly shorter charge moves.
However the charge moves would be better of without paying for wheeling IMO, it is just annoying and bogs down the gameplay.
Also I decided to repaint and rebase my Empire army, and I was used to Empire actually being able to fight in 8th edition, and now they simply can't fight anything above a goblin and be expected to win.
The Empire is in such a poor place that I really can't imagine how they are going to be helped in there arcane journal, I suspect that they will be as bad as they are now and just stay that way until an eventual new edition (with step up hopefully).
@@SinglemSolis I have rebased two empire armies. After one game I realized they are not viable in this edition as a fun faction to play.
@@brianabela4533 I have played 8th ed as actively as possible between 2019-2023. I attended 5 tournaments, painted 3 armies and I've appeared on a couple of Swedish Batreps on youtube.
I watched the entire old world wars on MWG a couple of times, and I watched and followed maybe 4 other channels making 8th ed batreps.
Since TOW came out, I have found 1 single battle report interesting. I've tried watching a bunch, I don't know how many, maybe 50...
And also I've played 5 games myself, and the games is just atrociously bad.
Sure 8th edition had its flaws, but TOW is one big flaw imo.
The moment I decided to go back to 8th edition, last week actually, I feelt instantly more happy about my hobby. It felt really good.
AOS offers a much easier access than TOW but is not easier to master. In TOW the rules needs more time and effort to digest but once done you can read any game, however your opponent is. In AOS you will need to digest not only the rules but also all armies specific abilities, combos and tricks that impact in a much deeper manner the gameplay than in TOW. Beyond that, comparing both games in regards to their gameplay would be the same than comparing orange and apple. One is still a wargame when the other became a board game. And that's ok :-)
I’d agree with most of the things you mentioned about it altogether.
Will tow replace aos, no, at least not in a total view (it kinda did however for me😂😅)
Both games are good in their own way and as it currently stands I think tow has a good chance in being a game.
Not for everybody not the game gw will be keen on making propaganda with but there are and will be people keen in just playing tow.
As for the brutality in that game, well I’d say it like this.
Compared to aos it’s probably similar.
There are army compositions that can just destroy the opposing forces and currently the double turn in aos isn’t much helpful to counter that either
Yes more OW please.
Looking forward to the Underworlds battle reports :)
I have fond memories of running demo games of 5th edition Fantasy while working in GW retail, and I disagree with your statement that Fantasy was NEVER a good game for new gamers. Our store sold nearly as many starter box sets of Fantasy as 40k, and so did all the other GW stores in our region. It wasn’t until later editions when bloat set in (rules, model count, etc) that it became increasingly harder and harder to get people to either start out in the hobby, or to start new additional armies once they did get into the game. The setting was easy for newbies to grasp and feel familiar in, and with the proper shop support, the game sold extremely well.
I love Geometry Wars! It doesn't sell well though. And as you said there are imbalance issues. Some units are just so good that without a comp pack 90% of some books are just not worth taking vs that other op 10%.
No argument with what you're saying here, as a huge TOW fan.
TOW is a fantastic game but it really works best when played with friends who are more interested in having a good experience, rather than in roflstomping someone with the most tweaked out unit.
Absolutely agree with your comment about the need for the social contract, basically. It's a fantastic game experience when you play it that way.
Your comment about it being a smaller game and that giving it the scope to be the best possible game for that audience resonates with me, too. The kind of experience I want out of TOW isn't really compatible with what GW wants from AOS or 40k. There are plenty of people whose best possible game experience is AOS and I'm happy they have that; I'm just happy to have this instead.
Looking forward to seeing how it goes when you're playing more social-contract type lists.
More like Old man yells at cloud World! ;)
very true!
I think it’s a great game for being only a year old, hoping for a little more from it in the future but for now it’s a great framework.
the game does have some first edition jank to work out, and its unfortunate that melee infantry is the worst kind of unit when to me the biggest attraction of a rant and flank game is the ability to play out games that look like big fantasy battles without taking forever moving a hundred individual models at a time. Still, I've had a lot of fun with it.
I was disappointed they didn't redo the Orc plastics, I'll jump in if they do and they look cool. I already had my fill of the old models many years ago.
You said it's not tactical, then literally describe movement tactics... I die. I'm out
I like old world. Not as much as aos but it is a good glow up of the ild game. The biggest hinderance is time to play. Its a commitment
More Old World Adventures, please 😊
I dropped whfb back in 8th and picked up KoW. Still use my old armies for KoW today and I’m not sure whow would bring me back. Just seems to be too messy and unbalanced and games take forever
Would love to know if you are seeing any interest in Infinity N5 in your area?
I imagine a small uptick as with all new Ed's
Guys look nervous, fearing the mighty ToW onslaught.
everyday I'm shaking
😂
I also hate the way people refer to "optimizable micro-management rules minutiae" as "tactical."
Because it's just not a "tactic" to know that, for example
-25mm is technically 99% of an inch so models on 25mm bases get to be "within 1 inch" of a model 2 rows in front of them
-the objectives are always spaced X inches apart so you can use them to make Guess range weapons not a Guess
-if you move your unit at so and so an angle you cant technically fight them ever because of such and such a rule
These are not tactics, there is no DECISION being made because there is never a drawback to not making use of the rules wording quirk that makes the thing always perform X% better.
A "tactic" is deciding that this unit is going to move this direction to do this thing, instead of that thing. It's deciding youll spend a point you have on this, or on that. Decisions with trade offs that you make at the tabletop and not before the game are tactics.
Sounds like maybe you didn't have the best first game :( As someone whose taught a few new people how to play it sounds like a lot of players are forgetting or just don't know the fundamentals of teaching someone or giving them a good experience and introduction. Bringing something like pegasus knights or dragon lords or all 360 like you mentioned to someones first game is very cringe behaviour. I think maybe some table top hobbyists need to a bit more empathetic and mindful when it comes to this sort of thing :)
You guys should definitely try out Kings of War from Mantic Games, it's such a great rulesets, don't having the issues TOW has. Just saying 😊
I'm a minis person first, and I have to say the models don't do it for me. Nothing against anyone who likes them, but they just don't do it for me :/
I mean people powergame. Thats not a problem with the game, thats a problem with the player. Same as always.
I think its a bit of column A and B. I absolutely believe with tabletop games especially people should be willing and even expect to do some social contracting and maybe even a little rules tweaking but the designers of the game should also be doing their due diligence in making a balanced game within reason. Otherwise why are we paying for their rulebooks?
I fell out of love with WFB in the late 90's. It was just too cumbersome and tedious. People thinking it's going to replace AoS are kidding themselves.
AoS vs TOW... I don’t think either game is simple to play well. Yes, the basic mechanics of AoS are pretty easy to pick up quickly, but just knowing the basics of movement and combat will not make you a good player. GW has just moved the complexity from the rule book to the battle scrolls.
I want to play OW but I've got my hands full trying to play 'keepy uppy' with Heresy. My active Heresy group has mostly plateaued this year. These games will struggle to grow themselves due to how dense the rules are. That's the main hurdle we have with drawing in players for Heresy.
Really like those old world Dwarf models. I have zero interest in the game itself though.
I really enjoy tow as i found 40k and aos incredibly bland , but ive yet to find any game half as good as infinity.
main issue with getting people 'off the street' playing TOW is that it essentially doesn't play as what it is billed as, a rank and flank. The simple concept of manouvre units to score the most points in combat won't get you very far compared to studying the meta.
Dude played peg knight spam against you in your first game. Riiight.
This would be like me turning up to someone's first 40k game with a competitive meta list and dumpstering you.
What a complete strawman argument.
We found this game flies off our shelves at 75% discount. 😉🤣
oooo
If your game is made for lawyers but needs a social contract to be enjoyable your general premise is self-defeating. :-|
Well, that’s your opinion and it sounds like you played with what I call a bad player. If you feel like you’re playing against a rules lawyer than you’re playing against someone I wouldn’t play more than once. And that’s any game. Your experience is honestly your opponent you’re playing. If your opponent is a “win at all cost, screw being a fun opponent” you’re going to have a horrible experience. Sounds like you played a bad player.
But as a game store owner you do what’s best for your store. But your opinion sounds super biased and if you think 40k or other games are more balanced you’re being dishonest.
But if I heard you saying this at the store I’m not sure I would purchase from your store. I would most likely find a new store to play at. Because this sounds like you’re just hating on the game and saying only “those players” play it. Kind of insulting. Not because you didn’t have a good experience but you completely shit on my game. It wasn’t a good conversation because my experience first time was amazing and it didn’t take too long to learn. But I’m not an idiot but I’m also not a “rules lawyer”. Thanks for that.
To be honest I’m not going to be watching further videos. Every video you release on Old World has been super negative and you’re always shocked when it does well. You both sound like you want the game to fail and you have no good things to say about the game. Have a good day.
You are very emotionally invested here mate. Take a step back, take a breath, and realize that this is just a stupid video and doesn't matter.
Take care all the best.
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 I’m autistic and get bothered by people who are overly negative about things that are my special interests. But you have to admit you have been especially harsh on Old World for a while now and your experience that you talk about has been the opposite of mine. I dislike 40K now because the community is the most toxic community I’ve ever played in. It might be the money maker but the players make playing the game not fun. So I’m just telling you there’s being honest and there’s being biased about a game you clearly haven’t had the experience other players have. Your negativity brought out mine.
Thing about human psychology is that when you’re being negative you trigger the negativity in others and that creates a negative opinion in one way or another. For some it will make them feel negative towards TOW and others will feel negative against your channel. And I may be autistic and have issues controlling my emotional responses but I am no idiot. Write me off as one at your own expense.
Managed to get a game in right before it died.