I'm a new bowler and bowling tech talk is VERY intimidating. This video/lecture was very helpful. I will say, I put all my trust in my pro shop. Until I get even better at understanding what I need as a bowler, I have to trust my pro shop operator to tell me what's best for me. Otherwise, I just don't know. But thank you for this lecture, I know much more now than I did before.
@@AlVineGreatoutdoors Ugh I know your pain. I tried a reverse pitch thumb once on the advice of a guy I bowled with and at the end of the night my forearm was so sore I couldn't grip a thing. It works for people with VERY big hands/spans but not for most people.
This video helped me to understand what my pro shop was telling me. I bowled a longtime using house balls. Last year I started buying my own. So I don't understand some of what is said and it takes a longtime to wrap my head around the information. This video really has helped.
I really wish I could've sat down with Mo and got all the questions answered I've had for years regarding the sport of bowling. Especially when it comes to layouts and in depth physics.
Wow ! I don remember ever being more excited about the prospect of improving my bowling game as I am after discovering Mo and his presentation on Ball Motion.
Awesome presentation, Mo! Totally love the idea of telling customers what category a particular ball is in...long overdue and really innovative! Finally, thanks for looking out for the recreational bowler, without which this great sport we all love would not exist.
Had a pro shop ruin a ball I had drilled... was referred to a different pro shop by several top bowlers. Talk to your high scoring bowlers and ask them what pro shop they recommend. In the boise area its westy's garden lanes.
Mo, I have to say I was considering going with another manufacturer of ball with no question due to their knowledge. You just made me reconsider my choice.
informative but i think he used uo all the "ok's" he gets in a lifetime.... ok? hahaha... just teasing. This should be a requirement for all ball drillers and coaches. I'm just getting back into our game after 20yrs away from it...was just there as the core/surface tech was emerging. This lecture got me up to speed for myself if for no other reason! Thanks so much!
Very informative. I started Bowling no the 50s. Back then we had hardness cover And top weight. Balls were just about all rubber i quit Bowling in 1981 and statted my kae enforcement career. Dompe bad injuries sort of sidelined going back to Bowling. Now i am over 70 And want to get back into it. Wham,. Start hearing about sym And asem pap And all these other angles. Guys are now Bowling 900 wow. Seems likeskill just isnt enough. Two handed one handed. Oil patterns wo where is the fun in this.
As a two handed bowler, should my center of grip be measured from the top crease of my middle finger to the top crease of my wrist or remain as the span between the finger and the thumb like one handed?
Your question reminds me of a likely follow up issue... Since USBC rules are largely anchored in a traditional grip history, you could just measure 2 1/2" squared off of finger holes and inscribe the required + mark there - that reminds them of the traditional layout, and should satisfy rules when 2020 rolls around. As long as that mark sits under your palm while bowling, you should be good, as I read it. As for the real layout? Those wanting to go no thumb will want to start with this bit of reading if they haven't already seen it: radicalbowling.com/tech-docs/a-radical-look-into-no-thumb-drill-patterns So...MATT is correct, and a brave new world lurches on.
Troy22U you obviously don’t understand how the two handed style works. The twist is the opening of the shoulders and hips to get your body out of the way and to increase the ability to project the ball onto the lane. If done correctly, the only thing that happens is the first time you do it the next day you are going to have a hurt right arm because you are using different muscles. Your back will not hurt. Even Walter Ray Williams uses the two handed deli every sometimes and while he doesn’t open his body as much as say Jason Belmonte but I doubt his back is hurting or he wouldn’t do it.
When Mom says that if you want your Asymmetric ball to roll like a Symmetric ball, then just put the PSA in the thumb hole... Is he stating that he highly discourages this type of layout? I was thinking of drilling a pin up ball with a 4inch pin to pap and the PSA just right of my thumb hole. Estimate it to be a 40 x 4 x 35. No balance hole of course. Is this not what Mo is recommending?
@@ricerocket702 No, he is not discouraging the layout at all. He is stating that asymmetrical balls are inherently more versatile with drilling options than symmetrical.
thank you moe this was great and loved the complete presentation .if you had a junior daughter that is starting to bowl what program would you place her in to begin her journey ?
they're limited to measuring pin to pap and val angle.. this whole debacle came about from two handers using thumb holes and weight holes to seriously alter differentials(before the first rendition of the weight hole rule whereas right now you can only have one extra hole)
It is OK to alter the differentials of a ball as long as you stick your thumb in the hole but if you don't it is bad? The same ball that is legal for you and illegal for me; maybe if people didn't get so butt-hurt about two-handed bowlers we wouldn't have such stupid rules in the first place.
I'd love to try to point out how much advantage two handers have with how much revs they can put on the ball and that bowlers with thumbs arent altering the differentials intentionally, but you obviously just want to complain about the limitations being put in place. So just save yourself the time and quit bowling.
I would love to try to point out that no one is stopping you from using two hands but there are people out there who want to make it as difficult as possible and then blame the two handed bowlers for all the stupid rules they make. I would also love to try to point out the ball motion is going to be affected the same if the differentials are changed intentionally or unintentionally and that bowlers are intentionally altering the differentials by choosing which layout they want. Finally, I enjoy bowling but if people are going to say stupid things I am going to call then on it.
th-cam.com/video/6TjmHkVMEdI/w-d-xo.html if you allow weight holes, then you have to allow thumb in bowlers weight holes as well. You don't get to say "oh well its a thumb hole" and then not use it. The fact is you guys got away with it because no one ever bothered to define your bowling. Then the usbc really looked at what was going on and said wait a minute, technically the thumb holes these two handers have is already weight hole the way rules were written. They nixed weight holes not due to two handers(who were wildly exploiting it calling a second hole a thumb hole), but because of increasing differentials. And if you ask Mo, I guarantee he'll tell you the USBC didn't even bother to check on changes on core dynamics after drilling(without weight holes). The guy's just a straight up fucking genius. This is him telling you, here's how to still get around it. He's always 3 steps ahead of everyone else. Do you see Jason Belmonte lashing out about not being able to change the dynamics as much? Kyle Troup? Anthony Simonsen? Any other two hander well known on tour? No, because they realize they still have so much of an advantage they don't need it.
All depends on the oil pattern. If there is more oil out then you will see that your asym actually hooks more. But bowling on open bowling times and league bowling house shots where the volume is so low especially the closer you get to the gutters that the strong balls actually go thru the three phases of motion so fast it looks like it isn't doing anything.
Mo, in 20 od years of bowling I have never had a warranty problem. If I have a choice between a plugged bowing ball and a + in my average, plug my bowling ball.
psa on a drilled ball goes towards the largest hole drilled, unless the ball is a strong asym then it stays where the predetermined mark on the ball is at, so it would be in between the two fingers
@@michaeldietz2312 I have no clue what to expect when drilling my next ball since I'll need to only drill my 2 finger holes. Is there anything I can reference? I like my pin-up layouts now with the length I get. I just don't know if the reaction will be similar.
When the ball is in the DeTerminator, the axis migrates from the PAP to the PSA. But in the diagram, the marked migration path goes from the PAP to somewhere between the pin and the PSA. If that path continued, would it eventually reach the PSA? Is the ball not on the lane long enough to get there? Or did i miss something?
When the ball is on the lane, the axis migration path will follow the RG contour. On the Determinator, it only locates the PSA so we can draw the Pin to Spin line.
Ha Ha. I guess this is a part of physics i'm not likely to get my head around. It just seems to me that if the PSA is the axis the ball wants to migrate to and rotate around (as demonstrated in the DeTerminator), it should want to do the same thing on the lane.
Do you still put the PSA in the mentioned locations for Full Rollers? Like you said, to make an asymmetrical ball more like a symmetrical ball, put the PSA in the thumb. But would you put the PSA in the thumb for a Full Roller?
I'm a MBB in 6S with 12 years experience in data analysis for Fortune 50 companies, non-profits and the USFG. I will tell you with full confidence that a 19.55% STD is not even close to valid. In this type of testing I would accept no more than 10% before making a policy change. That is minimum standard for testing. For social analysis like a KJ it can be a bit higher (15%) but for manufacturing tests 10% is marginally acceptable if it is not "critical". If the component is "critical", as the rule is implies, I would not accept more than 5% STD. What the 20% STD implies is that there is a flaw in the testing methodology, instrumentation and/or the "critical nature" of the component being tested. Like I tell ALL my clients, "action for action sake is a fools errand."
Thanks for your professional input, but I'm pretty sure everybody here with a junior high statistics class knows that a 20% margin of error is comical.
Hi... I've been bowling like forever... I'm trying all sorts of balls....but I can't seem to find " THE ONE FOR ME" the one that suits my bowling....I'm a 200average house shot bowler....my highest game is 297.....and highest series is a 735.... I own and owned multiple balls and by multiple brands....I've bowled good with most balls....but never really bowled great.... So far...my 4favorit balls would be radical guru supreme....roto grip rogue cell...motiv primal fear and track tantrum....never had a hammer nor dv8 nor Columbia....I have a radical more cash that I can't seem to contrôle.,..I own a few storms...the crossroad...got me 185 average...the Optimus got me up to 200...got a Crux solid bowled good but nothing really higher than 260.... Crux pearl I hated.....now my question would be......what kind of core and coverstock and/or brand would be best for me by professional opinion.....thank you
HIGHER RG Balls with Higher Diff will Hook more. RG 2.55 with 500 Grit or lower Will be tha new golden ball. 100 Grit on slow absorption ball will be king. I'm already using 60 grit on a ball and its reading early how I like it!!! =D USBC is STUPID They gonna make balls hook more!!! =D
USBC has finally killed bowling once and for all. So they expect the millions of bowling balls that have weight holes to have all those plugged up? Who is going to do that and WHO is going to PAY for that?
So your saying that in 2 years you won't have all new balls and most balance holes help layouts stay legal with old rules. U just need to plug the balance holes and they should stay legal
Nathan Vault I have over 10 bowling balls and at least 5 I use during league night on rotational basis. Who is paying to plug up these balls? And who is paying me to get a couple of new balls that come out that take advantage of the new rules? This change is complete bs.
@@TraumaER why any one needs 5 balls to bowl one night of league is beyond me. And I don't know where your from but to get all 10 balls balance holes plugged it would only be like 100 bucks where I live
Nathan Vault I bring 3 (2 strikes and 1 spare). And I never heard of a place plugging balls for $10 each. USBC should be paying me this $10 then. I bowled 269 last week in league so I know what I'm talking about.
I’m sorry but the USBC is doing all it can to keep the sport alive. It changed the youth bowling and Junior Gold has been growing in multiple areas, one of which is participation. The USBC is actually trying to grow the sport, they just tend to be a little dumb sometimes.
Thank you for making this presentation available. As well as making it easily understandable. I do have one question, I can't seem to find any data on how this will actually effect the motion of the ball. But, Mo said it, so I believe it. Just don't know what exactly it will do. If I were to put a 1 1/2 thumb slug in my symmetrical ball with 1 3/8 another 1 1/4 deeper, what effect would that have on the ball? I have about 3-6 degrees of axis tilt. My symmetrical balls are drilled pin up and to the right. Would adding a thumb slug in this manner make the track flare up over the thumb or fingers or would it not have that particular effect on it? Thank you.
League bowling is a shadow of what it was even as little as 15 years ago, let alone the 90s, 80s or earlier. People didn't move away from league bowling because they couldn't score.
As a General Manager of two centers, I can tell you Geoff that I couldn’t care less about what league bowlers average but, I can tell you who does care... league bowlers. That’s why house shots remain so easy. In an already dying activity (league bowling), it would die quicker if we started laying down a shot that actually made people work to average 220. Most league bowlers would quit.
cherry question (flame off, please - serious dummy question): Don't things like PAP, Tilt etc. change depending on how far around the side of the ball you get? I'm one of those no-thumbers (not two-hander) and I can definitely control motion by how much I cock the ball on my hand. It changes the location of the rings.
What the heck people talking about the honor of bowling the. Respect of the sport , it is bowling it is for fun what difference does it make if you can get higher scores than in the glory days of the past it is for fun you can be competitive in tournaments but. The average guys in my league just want to have fun bowel good if people hit the sport what does this help bowling centers do not. Pop up all over the place just be realistic big deal if you can hook a ball better now more people bowel and more people have fun
Too many balls are sold with no science behind the purchase. I want more hook,or more length,etc. Problem is,the pso doesnt have the patience to deal with a customer one on one.
I love this video. As a bowler I wish all pro shop owners were required to watch this. Secondly I wish pro shop owners would take all bowlers seriously and take the time to do the numbers. There is not a bowler out there who does not want to bowl better. My pro shop, which I will not name, when I asked to measure my pap, told me “ oh I know what it is”. Really? You know my pap on a dry unrolled ball? What he was saying is, you are not a 220 average bowler and I don’t give a shi te. When I asked to have a different pin placement re my coach, he resisted until my coach forced him to. Pro shops taking the time to do the right thing is good for the sport, period. So I now had to go out and ask coaches I trust where I can get a shop to drill me balls correctly. One such man Ron Clifton, pointed me in the right direction although it’s quite away from where I live.
Question about drilling layout for me after having my ability to supinate my wrist taken away by a drunk driver running me over. My game was obviously changed immensely considering I was a high rev player before. Is there any layout for drilling to help ease ability to shape a shot and use spare ball less? Suggestions?
Deep thumb on IT system: drill 1.5" hole for IT drill 1.375" hole at the bottom, 1" deep drill 1.25" hole at bottom ~.75" deep Glue sanded slug into 1.375" hole and drill it out the excess slug using 1.5" IT bit drill .5" hole for molly. Possibly illegal, due to the internal void rule, but virtually impossible to detect.
Is the following accordane drill bit correct? 1,5 = 1 1/2 1,375 = 1 3/8 1,25 = 1 1/4 If YES, then my IT kit, contains 2 bits of 1 5/16, and 1 7/16. How can I apply your idea, which actually, I like it. Thanks again.
First off thank you Mo for putting at such a great presentation. I am in kinda in the same boat as Eric S posted about trusting the ProShop. I have no idea what I even need as a bowler. I have not bowled in League Play since the late 90 and all of my balls are from the 90's with one of them having a balance hole as that was the thing to do back them. Guess I will be shopping for new balls soon. I do know that I've been told that I'm a Tweener style player with a lot of bowl roll. Whatever that means, I have no idea from a technical standpoint. I look forward to learning more about the bowling overall.
TechT1999 being a tweeter means you can play a straight line and also a bigger hook than what the bowling community calls strokers (Norm Duke and Parker Bonn III are two stroker players). The other is cranker which means that they have a huge hook and can’t really play a straight line. I used to be a Tweener because I was able to switch from going straight to having a big hook. Now I’m a cranker because I’m a two hander. It’s really hard to get the ball to go straight as a two hander unless you have a plastic ball. Anyway hope that helps
I think what he said was the core makes a bigger difference on the SHAPE the ball will have more than the cover will. Adjusting the cover will change the break point (closer or later) but how the ball is drilled dictates the shape of the arc the ball will have.
I understand his thinking on it, but why would they then make multiple bowling balls that have the same core and different cover stocks and see such a wide variety in ball motion
@@austinladd4088 because they can sell more bowling balls:) There is quite a difference between a Solid pearl and Hybrid cover all using the same core I agree. I think he is saying that the overall shape (angular or smooth) is determined by the core the cover and cover prep help fine tune it moving it further down lane or earlier etc
I wish USBC would go much further. I grew up bowling in the 70's and the 80's, back when a 200 average and a 300 game actually meant something. I watch today's player and just shake my head. These same guys who average 210 now would have averaged 160 back in the day. If the USBC wants bowling to succeed, they need to limit the "hook in a box" bowling balls. I started bowling again in 2009 after a 12 year layoff only to quit in 2013 after witnessing this first hand. I love the analytics of ball motion, and Mo is second to none in my opinion. I learned so much from him during my 5 year return to the game. Thanks Mo for sharing your knowledge.
Joe I disagree. I also grew up bowling in the 70's and 80's as a Cranker. I never had a problem of hooking the ball with plastic or anything else. As Mo said in the above video the USBC new balance hole rule will handicap the weaker and rev challenged bowler. To keep these types of bowlers they need to be able to hook the ball with their present style with reasonable hitting power at the pins. If USBC wants bowling to succeed they need to stop the easy lane conditions and enforce lane spec rules. Maybe even limit total oil volume applied to the lanes. Those factors are the biggest problems with bowling. Not so much that bowling balls can hook out of the box. Limit the oil applied and the easy patterns allowed and scores will drop to a more honorable level. Bowlers who want to improve their scores will either need to learn how to put more revs on the ball or develop the knowledge needed to create better ball motion. Than the integrity of the sport will return.
@@darylw792Both of you guys are wrong. I grew up bowling the 70s and 80s as well. If you were able to carry a "good" average back then (mine was 180s), then you should be able to take your great mechanics you learned from back then, apply them to today's technology and average 220. Don't cry because the "hook in a box" bowlers (or two handers) are beating you. If you can't adapt to the new technology of both equipment and lane conditions then you weren't really that good of a bowler in the first place.
@@Haystack65 What am I wrong on? I agree with everything you said, and nothing in my statement contracts what you said does it? If one carried a good average back than (in the 70's mine was 200 - 210; in the 80's it was 220 - 230) they should be able to apply that talent to today's game. I agree with you. Where in my comments am I crying about "hook in a box bowlers" or two handers? Most of these types of bowlers today are as dumb as a box of rocks when it comes to understanding equipment tech and lane play strategy. And because of that I kick their ass most of the time. Whose complaining about these bowlers. I find it fun playing against them. Did I not say that bowler's who wish to improve their game need to put more revs on the ball or increase their knowledge of the game? Is not the idea of improving one's knowledge of the game adapting to the new tech and lane play strategies? It surely is different today than in the 70's and 80's, right? Of course most bowlers back than did not keep up with the new so called tech and knowledge of the game just as today. I do not care how much a ball hooks out of the box. If one does not know how to use it they will not benefit from it. The only thing I said the USBC should do is crack down on the easy lane conditions of today. Are not the lane conditions easier today than they were back in the 70's and 80's? What is wrong with toughening up the lane conditions at least to what they were in the 70's and than check them after each award score to make sure the condition is legal just like they did in the 70's?
@@darylw792 What did you say that was wrong? Not much, except for this "Maybe even limit total oil volume applied to the lanes." Again... if you can't compete under the current conditions with today's equipment then you really weren't much of a bowler to begin with. Or do you really think we should "dumb down" the conditions for newbs to learn???
@@Haystack65 I will give you the comment on limiting oil applied to the lanes. If a bowling center wants to spend the money for high oil volume than go for it. I have yet to see too much oil in my case. I am not sure what you mean by dumb down the conditions. Could you explain the meaning of your phrase, because I can take it two ways that oppose each other, and I do not want to put words in your mouth that you did not say.
No one breaks down tech talk so the average bowler can understand and benefit from this than Mo. Love it! Thanks for all this hard work.
I'm a new bowler and bowling tech talk is VERY intimidating. This video/lecture was very helpful. I will say, I put all my trust in my pro shop. Until I get even better at understanding what I need as a bowler, I have to trust my pro shop operator to tell me what's best for me. Otherwise, I just don't know. But thank you for this lecture, I know much more now than I did before.
I always ask the guys averaging over 200 on what pro shop to go to and they will tell you followed by ones you should stay away from.
I just had a Pro drill me a black widow 2.0 And he drilled the thumb hole backwards. Almost destroying the tendons in my thumb.
@@AlVineGreatoutdoors Ugh I know your pain. I tried a reverse pitch thumb once on the advice of a guy I bowled with and at the end of the night my forearm was so sore I couldn't grip a thing. It works for people with VERY big hands/spans but not for most people.
This video helped me to understand what my pro shop was telling me. I bowled a longtime using house balls. Last year I started buying my own. So I don't understand some of what is said and it takes a longtime to wrap my head around the information. This video really has helped.
I really wish I could've sat down with Mo and got all the questions answered I've had for years
regarding the sport of bowling. Especially when it comes to layouts and in depth physics.
I enjoyed giving this its 1000th like on 2021-09-15. Missing Mo's experience and charm in his videos.
Wow ! I don remember ever being more excited about the prospect of improving my bowling
game as I am after discovering Mo and his presentation on Ball Motion.
I owe Mo a beer. his knowledge made me a casher.
Awesome presentation, Mo! Totally love the idea of telling customers what category a particular ball is in...long overdue and really innovative! Finally, thanks for looking out for the recreational bowler, without which this great sport we all love would not exist.
Had a pro shop ruin a ball I had drilled... was referred to a different pro shop by several top bowlers. Talk to your high scoring bowlers and ask them what pro shop they recommend. In the boise area its westy's garden lanes.
Mo, I have to say I was considering going with another manufacturer of ball with no question due to their knowledge.
You just made me reconsider my choice.
informative but i think he used uo all the "ok's" he gets in a lifetime.... ok? hahaha... just teasing.
This should be a requirement for all ball drillers and coaches. I'm just getting back into our game after 20yrs away from it...was just there as the core/surface tech was emerging. This lecture got me up to speed for myself if for no other reason! Thanks so much!
Is there a resource that gets more in-depth in regards to thumbless layouts with the new rules?
Very informative. I started Bowling no the 50s. Back then we had hardness cover And top weight. Balls were just about all rubber i quit Bowling in 1981 and statted my kae enforcement career. Dompe bad injuries sort of sidelined going back to Bowling. Now i am over 70 And want to get back into it. Wham,. Start hearing about sym And asem pap And all these other angles. Guys are now Bowling 900 wow. Seems likeskill just isnt enough. Two handed one handed. Oil patterns wo where is the fun in this.
Great Job Mo -
Where are you located? I would like to set up appointment to have you watch me bowl to figure out everything. I know my PAP but that’s it .
That'll be a little tough, he passed away 3 years ago
I guess you didn’t see my next post🤦🏽♀️
As a two handed bowler, should my center of grip be measured from the top crease of my middle finger to the top crease of my wrist or remain as the span between the finger and the thumb like one handed?
If I understand your question of center of grip for no thumb bowlers. It is between your 2 fingers in the ball
Your question reminds me of a likely follow up issue... Since USBC rules are largely anchored in a traditional grip history, you could just measure 2 1/2" squared off of finger holes and inscribe the required + mark there - that reminds them of the traditional layout, and should satisfy rules when 2020 rolls around. As long as that mark sits under your palm while bowling, you should be good, as I read it. As for the real layout? Those wanting to go no thumb will want to start with this bit of reading if they haven't already seen it: radicalbowling.com/tech-docs/a-radical-look-into-no-thumb-drill-patterns
So...MATT is correct, and a brave new world lurches on.
Bowling 2handed you should pay 2 times the amount in USBC fees,
I don't see the 2 handed style lasting. The way you have to contort your back these kids won't be able to do when they are 40 plus
Troy22U you obviously don’t understand how the two handed style works. The twist is the opening of the shoulders and hips to get your body out of the way and to increase the ability to project the ball onto the lane. If done correctly, the only thing that happens is the first time you do it the next day you are going to have a hurt right arm because you are using different muscles. Your back will not hurt. Even Walter Ray Williams uses the two handed deli every sometimes and while he doesn’t open his body as much as say Jason Belmonte but I doubt his back is hurting or he wouldn’t do it.
When Mom says that if you want your Asymmetric ball to roll like a Symmetric ball, then just put the PSA in the thumb hole...
Is he stating that he highly discourages this type of layout? I was thinking of drilling a pin up ball with a 4inch pin to pap and the PSA just right of my thumb hole.
Estimate it to be a 40 x 4 x 35. No balance hole of course. Is this not what Mo is recommending?
Lol spell check
Mom = Mo
@@ricerocket702 No, he is not discouraging the layout at all. He is stating that asymmetrical balls are inherently more versatile with drilling options than symmetrical.
good video. he explains clearly.
Eric Zenk I second that
thank you moe this was great and loved the complete presentation .if you had a junior daughter that is starting to bowl what program would you place her in to begin her journey ?
Is there a similar talk or presentation for layouts without thumb holes? Or any available literature?
they're limited to measuring pin to pap and val angle.. this whole debacle came about from two handers using thumb holes and weight holes to seriously alter differentials(before the first rendition of the weight hole rule whereas right now you can only have one extra hole)
It is OK to alter the differentials of a ball as long as you stick your thumb in the hole but if you don't it is bad? The same ball that is legal for you and illegal for me; maybe if people didn't get so butt-hurt about two-handed bowlers we wouldn't have such stupid rules in the first place.
I'd love to try to point out how much advantage two handers have with how much revs they can put on the ball and that bowlers with thumbs arent altering the differentials intentionally, but you obviously just want to complain about the limitations being put in place. So just save yourself the time and quit bowling.
I would love to try to point out that no one is stopping you from using two hands but there are people out there who want to make it as difficult as possible and then blame the two handed bowlers for all the stupid rules they make. I would also love to try to point out the ball motion is going to be affected the same if the differentials are changed intentionally or unintentionally and that bowlers are intentionally altering the differentials by choosing which layout they want. Finally, I enjoy bowling but if people are going to say stupid things I am going to call then on it.
th-cam.com/video/6TjmHkVMEdI/w-d-xo.html
if you allow weight holes, then you have to allow thumb in bowlers weight holes as well. You don't get to say "oh well its a thumb hole" and then not use it. The fact is you guys got away with it because no one ever bothered to define your bowling. Then the usbc really looked at what was going on and said wait a minute, technically the thumb holes these two handers have is already weight hole the way rules were written.
They nixed weight holes not due to two handers(who were wildly exploiting it calling a second hole a thumb hole), but because of increasing differentials. And if you ask Mo, I guarantee he'll tell you the USBC didn't even bother to check on changes on core dynamics after drilling(without weight holes). The guy's just a straight up fucking genius. This is him telling you, here's how to still get around it. He's always 3 steps ahead of everyone else.
Do you see Jason Belmonte lashing out about not being able to change the dynamics as much? Kyle Troup? Anthony Simonsen? Any other two hander well known on tour? No, because they realize they still have so much of an advantage they don't need it.
Tons of great info here. But what’s strange is the statement about asyms> syms. My hardest hooking balls are syms.
Hes saying they wont be in 2 years.
Do they have a balance hole/weight hole?
All depends on the oil pattern. If there is more oil out then you will see that your asym actually hooks more. But bowling on open bowling times and league bowling house shots where the volume is so low especially the closer you get to the gutters that the strong balls actually go thru the three phases of motion so fast it looks like it isn't doing anything.
I'm a no thumb with no extra holes, just 2 holes on the cg, thats it.
I get you now, thanks.
Mo, in 20 od years of bowling I have never had a warranty problem. If I have a choice between a plugged bowing ball and a + in my average, plug my bowling ball.
Balance hole moves PSA right. So does no thumb hole move it left?
psa on a drilled ball goes towards the largest hole drilled, unless the ball is a strong asym then it stays where the predetermined mark on the ball is at, so it would be in between the two fingers
@@michaeldietz2312 I have no clue what to expect when drilling my next ball since I'll need to only drill my 2 finger holes. Is there anything I can reference? I like my pin-up layouts now with the length I get. I just don't know if the reaction will be similar.
When the ball is in the DeTerminator, the axis migrates from the PAP to the PSA. But in the diagram, the marked migration path goes from the PAP to somewhere between the pin and the PSA. If that path continued, would it eventually reach the PSA? Is the ball not on the lane long enough to get there? Or did i miss something?
When the ball is on the lane, the axis migration path will follow the RG contour. On the Determinator, it only locates the PSA so we can draw the Pin to Spin line.
Ha Ha. I guess this is a part of physics i'm not likely to get my head around. It just seems to me that if the PSA is the axis the ball wants to migrate to and rotate around (as demonstrated in the DeTerminator), it should want to do the same thing on the lane.
The Determinator is adding energy to the ball and will seek out the High RG axis. (PSA)
Wow! I feel like a dog trying to understand a hammer😂. So the rotational energy you put on the ball at release doesn't do the same thing?
greggas1 has
Do you still put the PSA in the mentioned locations for Full Rollers?
Like you said, to make an asymmetrical ball more like a symmetrical ball, put the PSA in the thumb.
But would you put the PSA in the thumb for a Full Roller?
I'm a MBB in 6S with 12 years experience in data analysis for Fortune 50 companies, non-profits and the USFG. I will tell you with full confidence that a 19.55% STD is not even close to valid. In this type of testing I would accept no more than 10% before making a policy change. That is minimum standard for testing. For social analysis like a KJ it can be a bit higher (15%) but for manufacturing tests 10% is marginally acceptable if it is not "critical". If the component is "critical", as the rule is implies, I would not accept more than 5% STD. What the 20% STD implies is that there is a flaw in the testing methodology, instrumentation and/or the "critical nature" of the component being tested. Like I tell ALL my clients, "action for action sake is a fools errand."
Thanks for your professional input, but I'm pretty sure everybody here with a junior high statistics class knows that a 20% margin of error is comical.
this is great rule change, If you need more , put more hand in it
amazing.
Hi...
I've been bowling like forever...
I'm trying all sorts of balls....but I can't seem to find " THE ONE FOR ME" the one that suits my bowling....I'm a 200average house shot bowler....my highest game is 297.....and highest series is a 735....
I own and owned multiple balls and by multiple brands....I've bowled good with most balls....but never really bowled great.... So far...my 4favorit balls would be radical guru supreme....roto grip rogue cell...motiv primal fear and track tantrum....never had a hammer nor dv8 nor Columbia....I have a radical more cash that I can't seem to contrôle.,..I own a few storms...the crossroad...got me 185 average...the Optimus got me up to 200...got a Crux solid bowled good but nothing really higher than 260.... Crux pearl I hated.....now my question would be......what kind of core and coverstock and/or brand would be best for me by professional opinion.....thank you
To get the right ball you need to know your
Ball speed
Rev rate
Axis rotation
Axis tilt
Pap
Now I see why John Wilcox always spoke so highly of Mo. they are basically twins
HIGHER RG Balls with Higher Diff will Hook more. RG 2.55 with 500 Grit or lower Will be tha new golden ball. 100 Grit on slow absorption ball will be king. I'm already using 60 grit on a ball and its reading early how I like it!!! =D USBC is STUPID They gonna make balls hook more!!! =D
Thats funny I dont put my palm on my ball. I just hold it with my 2 fingers lol hahah ;D
I would like to send you a video on my release will my new radical closer I dropped to 15 lb. all my other balls are 16. Please look at the release.
I watch most all of you videos.
USBC has finally killed bowling once and for all. So they expect the millions of bowling balls that have weight holes to have all those plugged up? Who is going to do that and WHO is going to PAY for that?
So your saying that in 2 years you won't have all new balls and most balance holes help layouts stay legal with old rules. U just need to plug the balance holes and they should stay legal
Nathan Vault I have over 10 bowling balls and at least 5 I use during league night on rotational basis. Who is paying to plug up these balls? And who is paying me to get a couple of new balls that come out that take advantage of the new rules? This change is complete bs.
@@TraumaER why any one needs 5 balls to bowl one night of league is beyond me. And I don't know where your from but to get all 10 balls balance holes plugged it would only be like 100 bucks where I live
Nathan Vault I bring 3 (2 strikes and 1 spare). And I never heard of a place plugging balls for $10 each. USBC should be paying me this $10 then. I bowled 269 last week in league so I know what I'm talking about.
@@TraumaER if you paid for the ball I am sure you can pay to have a hole plugged.
Btw the only problem with bowling is whining crybabies like you.
Bottom line the usbc is killing the sport
I’m sorry but the USBC is doing all it can to keep the sport alive. It changed the youth bowling and Junior Gold has been growing in multiple areas, one of which is participation. The USBC is actually trying to grow the sport, they just tend to be a little dumb sometimes.
I think they are just catching up to the new technology with new rules is all.
Thank you for making this presentation available. As well as making it easily understandable. I do have one question, I can't seem to find any data on how this will actually effect the motion of the ball. But, Mo said it, so I believe it. Just don't know what exactly it will do. If I were to put a 1 1/2 thumb slug in my symmetrical ball with 1 3/8 another 1 1/4 deeper, what effect would that have on the ball? I have about 3-6 degrees of axis tilt. My symmetrical balls are drilled pin up and to the right. Would adding a thumb slug in this manner make the track flare up over the thumb or fingers or would it not have that particular effect on it? Thank you.
to many centers want you to average 235 or better there lanes are far from legal keeps the money rolling in for the center and its owners
League bowling is a shadow of what it was even as little as 15 years ago, let alone the 90s, 80s or earlier. People didn't move away from league bowling because they couldn't score.
As a General Manager of two centers, I can tell you Geoff that I couldn’t care less about what league bowlers average but, I can tell you who does care... league bowlers. That’s why house shots remain so easy. In an already dying activity (league bowling), it would die quicker if we started laying down a shot that actually made people work to average 220. Most league bowlers would quit.
@@KornHuskerJason yup. League bowling = easy house shot.
Big fan of Mr. Mo. I will follow this man's word til the day I can't bowl anymore.
cherry question (flame off, please - serious dummy question): Don't things like PAP, Tilt etc. change depending on how far around the side of the ball you get? I'm one of those no-thumbers (not two-hander) and I can definitely control motion by how much I cock the ball on my hand. It changes the location of the rings.
What the heck people talking about the honor of bowling the. Respect of the sport , it is bowling it is for fun what difference does it make if you can get higher scores than in the glory days of the past it is for fun you can be competitive in tournaments but. The average guys in my league just want to have fun bowel good if people hit the sport what does this help bowling centers do not. Pop up all over the place just be realistic big deal if you can hook a ball better now more people bowel and more people have fun
I got 15:50 wrong... "if you ain't crashing, you ain't racing"
Guess hillclimb and drag are a little different haha
Just coming back into bowling from nearly 20 years off. This was fantastic information as I come back into the mix.
Damn Mo you are Jahova great presentation I'm just getting back into bowling after 12 years
Too many balls are sold with no science behind the purchase. I want more hook,or more length,etc. Problem is,the pso doesnt have the patience to deal with a customer one on one.
Great video! Glad I spent the time to watch!!
looking forward to the new Radical balls.
28 Storm customers downvoted this video
I love this video. As a bowler I wish all pro shop owners were required to watch this. Secondly I wish pro shop owners would take all bowlers seriously and take the time to do the numbers. There is not a bowler out there who does not want to bowl better. My pro shop, which I will not name, when I asked to measure my pap, told me “ oh I know what it is”. Really? You know my pap on a dry unrolled ball? What he was saying is, you are not a 220 average bowler and I don’t give a shi te. When I asked to have a different pin placement re my coach, he resisted until my coach forced him to. Pro shops taking the time to do the right thing is good for the sport, period. So I now had to go out and ask coaches I trust where I can get a shop to drill me balls correctly. One such man Ron Clifton, pointed me in the right direction although it’s quite away from where I live.
Btw we miss you mo.
RIP 🙏🏾
Question about drilling layout for me after having my ability to supinate my wrist taken away by a drunk driver running me over. My game was obviously changed immensely considering I was a high rev player before. Is there any layout for drilling to help ease ability to shape a shot and use spare ball less? Suggestions?
52:35 drop knowledge
Deep thumb on IT system:
drill 1.5" hole for IT
drill 1.375" hole at the bottom, 1" deep
drill 1.25" hole at bottom ~.75" deep
Glue sanded slug into 1.375" hole and drill it out the excess slug using 1.5" IT bit
drill .5" hole for molly. Possibly illegal, due to the internal void rule, but virtually impossible to detect.
Can you elaborate on "glue sanded slag" ? Thanks
Is the following accordane drill bit correct?
1,5 = 1 1/2
1,375 = 1 3/8
1,25 = 1 1/4
If YES, then my IT kit, contains 2 bits of 1 5/16, and 1 7/16.
How can I apply your idea, which actually, I like it.
Thanks again.
1 7/16" bit is slightly larger than the 1 3/8 slug, so the concept should work.
First off thank you Mo for putting at such a great presentation. I am in kinda in the same boat as Eric S posted about trusting the ProShop. I have no idea what I even need as a bowler. I have not bowled in League Play since the late 90 and all of my balls are from the 90's with one of them having a balance hole as that was the thing to do back them. Guess I will be shopping for new balls soon. I do know that I've been told that I'm a Tweener style player with a lot of bowl roll. Whatever that means, I have no idea from a technical standpoint. I look forward to learning more about the bowling overall.
TechT1999 being a tweeter means you can play a straight line and also a bigger hook than what the bowling community calls strokers (Norm Duke and Parker Bonn III are two stroker players). The other is cranker which means that they have a huge hook and can’t really play a straight line. I used to be a Tweener because I was able to switch from going straight to having a big hook. Now I’m a cranker because I’m a two hander. It’s really hard to get the ball to go straight as a two hander unless you have a plastic ball. Anyway hope that helps
Are the handouts from this available to download?
The only thing I strongly disagree with is saying that a bowling balls core makes a bigger difference than the coverstock
I think what he said was the core makes a bigger difference on the SHAPE the ball will have more than the cover will. Adjusting the cover will change the break point (closer or later) but how the ball is drilled dictates the shape of the arc the ball will have.
I understand his thinking on it, but why would they then make multiple bowling balls that have the same core and different cover stocks and see such a wide variety in ball motion
@@austinladd4088 because they can sell more bowling balls:)
There is quite a difference between a Solid pearl and Hybrid cover all using the same core I agree. I think he is saying that the overall shape (angular or smooth) is determined by the core the cover and cover prep help fine tune it moving it further down lane or earlier etc
so that mean if I get a ball drilled now it can have a weight hole in it I have 2 radical balls in my closet that I want to get drilled
jim ward you can have a weight hole until January 1 of 2020
Don’t quote me on that; check bowl.com
@@DeanMcCain Actually it's June 1, 2020 to include all of the 2019-2020 league season.
That's right. Thank you
So I have to get rid of all of my symmetrical balls?
Great job Mo. Send me a ball!
0.0124g/cm^3
I wish USBC would go much further. I grew up bowling in the 70's and the 80's, back when a 200 average and a 300 game actually meant something. I watch today's player and just shake my head. These same guys who average 210 now would have averaged 160 back in the day. If the USBC wants bowling to succeed, they need to limit the "hook in a box" bowling balls. I started bowling again in 2009 after a 12 year layoff only to quit in 2013 after witnessing this first hand. I love the analytics of ball motion, and Mo is second to none in my opinion. I learned so much from him during my 5 year return to the game. Thanks Mo for sharing your knowledge.
Joe I disagree. I also grew up bowling in the 70's and 80's as a Cranker. I never had a problem of hooking the ball with plastic or anything else. As Mo said in the above video the USBC new balance hole rule will handicap the weaker and rev challenged bowler. To keep these types of bowlers they need to be able to hook the ball with their present style with reasonable hitting power at the pins. If USBC wants bowling to succeed they need to stop the easy lane conditions and enforce lane spec rules. Maybe even limit total oil volume applied to the lanes. Those factors are the biggest problems with bowling. Not so much that bowling balls can hook out of the box. Limit the oil applied and the easy patterns allowed and scores will drop to a more honorable level. Bowlers who want to improve their scores will either need to learn how to put more revs on the ball or develop the knowledge needed to create better ball motion. Than the integrity of the sport will return.
@@darylw792Both of you guys are wrong. I grew up bowling the 70s and 80s as well. If you were able to carry a "good" average back then (mine was 180s), then you should be able to take your great mechanics you learned from back then, apply them to today's technology and average 220. Don't cry because the "hook in a box" bowlers (or two handers) are beating you. If you can't adapt to the new technology of both equipment and lane conditions then you weren't really that good of a bowler in the first place.
@@Haystack65 What am I wrong on? I agree with everything you said, and nothing in my statement contracts what you said does it? If one carried a good average back than (in the 70's mine was 200 - 210; in the 80's it was 220 - 230) they should be able to apply that talent to today's game. I agree with you. Where in my comments am I crying about "hook in a box bowlers" or two handers? Most of these types of bowlers today are as dumb as a box of rocks when it comes to understanding equipment tech and lane play strategy. And because of that I kick their ass most of the time. Whose complaining about these bowlers. I find it fun playing against them. Did I not say that bowler's who wish to improve their game need to put more revs on the ball or increase their knowledge of the game? Is not the idea of improving one's knowledge of the game adapting to the new tech and lane play strategies? It surely is different today than in the 70's and 80's, right? Of course most bowlers back than did not keep up with the new so called tech and knowledge of the game just as today. I do not care how much a ball hooks out of the box. If one does not know how to use it they will not benefit from it.
The only thing I said the USBC should do is crack down on the easy lane conditions of today. Are not the lane conditions easier today than they were back in the 70's and 80's? What is wrong with toughening up the lane conditions at least to what they were in the 70's and than check them after each award score to make sure the condition is legal just like they did in the 70's?
@@darylw792 What did you say that was wrong? Not much, except for this "Maybe even limit total oil volume applied to the lanes." Again... if you can't compete under the current conditions with today's equipment then you really weren't much of a bowler to begin with. Or do you really think we should "dumb down" the conditions for newbs to learn???
@@Haystack65 I will give you the comment on limiting oil applied to the lanes. If a bowling center wants to spend the money for high oil volume than go for it. I have yet to see too much oil in my case.
I am not sure what you mean by dumb down the conditions. Could you explain the meaning of your phrase, because I can take it two ways that oppose each other, and I do not want to put words in your mouth that you did not say.