Husband refuses life-saving treatment for his wife | Chicago Med
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ก.ค. 2022
- A woman with Alzheimer's is brought in by her daughter who ignores her mother signed a paper refusing any heavy treatments.
#ChicagoMed #drhalstead #drcharles #OneChicago
Season 05, Episode 18, In The Name of Love,
Dr. Charles and Goodwin fear Dr. Halstead is repeating his past mistakes when a patient with early-onset Alzheimer’s is brought into the E.D. Maggie and Ben become concerned when one of Ben’s students is admitted. Dr. Manning and Dr. Marcel treat a terminally ill patient and disagree over the best course of action.
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Definitely a very Tough choice on one hand you want to save the patient’s life but on the other you have to respect the wishes of the patient and her family
Kkm
More the patient’s choice first. If determine to not have the cognitive need, then the family or the substitute decision marker.
On one hand, safe the patient's life, on the other, they had a script they must follow to shoot the episode....
Yeah, I'll see myself out....
@@ilanavonronge7166 ! נ
@@ilanavonronge7166 ! נ
Its an awful situation but the ER doctors constantly trying to undermine Dr Charles on subjects he's an expert in and they are not is infuriating
Risks of the trade as a hospital shrink. I bet he's used to it.
Still though, everyone has the right to a second opinion, and the thought that the daughter couldn't request it is bonkers
I wonder how much experience he has in controlling coercive family violence. I note he was dismissive of the wife’s suspicions of the husband. Yet often these are very real, and not paranoia. I get that someone would not want treatment in the end stages of Alzheimers, but not when they have a reasonable degree of autonomy. I would be questioning why the advanced directive was so comprehensive for the early stages.
I know the writers would not have been intending this scenario, but in real life this situation would be raising a lot of red flags for me of family violence.
nobody is an “expert” at anything if you really look at things. they just learn what has already been discovered
@@auds3551 Thanks for that profound deepthink Socrates
😊😊😊
As someone who lived to see their grandmother slowly decline over 15+ years from Alzheimers, I'm actually on the DNR side of things. My mom said for almost a decade that her mom (my grandma) would have killed her if she knew that she let her get to the state she did- she was a very proud woman, and to spend the last 15 years of her life slowly losing all sense of who she was until she was nothing more then a shell of a person (no memories, couldn't eat by herself, talk, or walk,) would have been the last thing she wanted.
My mom is now actively looking up ways to ensure that she can get Medically Assisted Death if she ever gets alzheimers because she knows what would be in store for her if she doesn't. We live in Canada so it's legal, but there are a lot of laws around needing the person to be of sound mind when they make the decision so it's difficult in a situation such as Alzheimers or Dementia.
My granddad had similar views. He had all the right paperwork. Then he got very sick. Luckely he passed away on his own prior to us family having to fully start the fight to forfill his wish. As sad as we were that he passed, he did so according to his own terms.
I watched my grandma go down this same path. I've decided no mater what I say at the time, if my mental capacity is technically impacted, I'm DNR, as long as I'm mentally competent I want to stay alive.
If i knew i have Alzheimer's, im gonna do so much coke and weed in one go so i will exit the World like a King! If all else fails, i have a gun ready
@@ShadowMoon878 Why would you do that?
@@mikaelarutyunov9578 Read the original comment and you understand (maybe). But I’ll try to explain it from my view.
It’s a horrible feeling to see you are losing yourself to a disease and know that at one point you are going to be nothing more than a empty shell of yourself. Not being capable of doing anything, losing the memories, the focus, everything. Not recognizing people you love… it’s natural to fear that. So - obviously many would like to avoid that destiny - even by choosing the death instead.
I know someone who has a form of dementia (luckily it’s the early phase, not so bad… yet) and it’s hard to see her declining. Slowly - but still. The worst is to see her struggling. She’s still healthy enough to be 100% aware of the situation. And I can see it’s hard. She’s a proud self-made independent woman who has had a great career in mens worlds and has been highly respected - always survived pretty much on her own. To see the strong, smart, witty and always prepared woman to lose her ever-so-tight grip on things is really sad. It’s no wonder many would rather just leave this world.
Im curious though, why is it every time chicago med is at risk of a pending lawsuit its always due to the actions of Dr Halsteed
Coz he doesn't listen to his colleagues. He forgets he is part of A team, which is forever a bad idea.
And Dr Manning
If this was Natalie who did this, everyone would be bashing her like mad
Yep!
because she makes decisions based on emotions very frequently.
Even Halstead gets "bashed". stop being pathetic.
Halstead is getting bashed. There's people in the comments pointing out that Halstead has went against a DNR or an advanced directive multiple times and always tries to undermine, Dr Charles, a trained and qualified psychiatrist, on subjects that he is an expert in. In reality, he'd have already lost his licence at this point. He wants to save people, but he goes against ethics to try and do it sometimes which isn't right. It would be one thing if it was ethically wrong but morally right which has happened a few times in Chicago Med. We'll disagree with them ethically but morally agree with them. Naturally, doctors want to save everybody they can, but that just isn't possible and it doesn't mean you can go against a DNR or an advanced directive to do that, especially if a psychiatrist says the patient isn't mentally fit to make their own decisions. That's extremely unprofessional.
In Natalie's case, she is far too emotional and allows her emotions to influence her decisions and the advise she gives to patients about treatments. More than one patient has died because of Natalie's emotions. Advising against heart surgery that could of saved the patient's life that was recommended by a heart surgeon and recommending an alternative treatment that ended up killing the patient just because she felt bad for him isn't being a good doctor. She's very unprofessional.
Both characters get bashed and deserve the hate that they get. If I said no to a certain treatment and a doctor did it anyway, I'd be pissed. If a doctor started being unprofessional and basing their advise purely on their own emotions, I wouldn't want to be treated by them either. Don't try and turn this into a gender thing when it has nothing to do with gender. Neither of them should still be doctors.
@@TomBentham thank you for typing this out, i couldn't explain my point any better!
Everyone except the hospital
That´s why we get mad, because Will always gets scolded for decisions like this when allshe gets is a slap on the hand
Halstead always gets a second opinion, but then rejects it when he doesn’t like what he hears and goes against it. Getting benched clearly taught him nothing.
As someone who works with Alzheimer's people and people with dementia, I actually am on Dr. Halsteads side on this. If she does not want to die, then let her make that decision herself. Even though she is not fully here she can still understand the concept of death, so if she doesn't want to die then don't let her.
Yes I believe sometimes the way patients are assessed to see if they are mentally capable to make a decision it can be actually kind of ableist and take agency away from the patient. She's still a person and if she's able to express desires and they make logical sense and they can't come with harm then they should be respected
The problem with this is that people with Alzheimer's also don't have the full capacity to understand what they are deciding on, as Dr. Charles has pointed out. Like he said when they were in the meeting with Goodwin, it is a deteriorating disease that degenerates and destroys a person. People can have moments of lucidity, and they CAN make that decision, but that lucidity doesn't stay for long.. especially as the disease progresses. That is why the AD was done to avoid situations like this.
I totally agree, my grandfather has alzheimers and we let him make the decisions for as long as he could vocalise them except for his decision to not be in a nursing home, we had to put him in because it was getting far too dangerous for him in a 3 story home. My family is not one to resist medical intervention so I doubt we’d ever make a list like this, but if we did, if he changed his mind at any point about one of the procedures we wouldn’t fight him on it, because watching someone die terrified when a procedure they said they didn’t want years ago is the only way of saving them is terrible, just let them have the procedure.
I am a dementia specialist nurse working in the UK and quite often I'm asked if someone 'has capacity' or not. It is not as black and white as you would believe. Each person's circumstances need to be considered fully before any decision made is rubber stamped. I've seen too many incidents of people voicing what they think should happen to someone regardless of what the person concerned actually wants. There are no easy answers in those situations.
Agreed
What pisses me off the most, even in real life is that the whole point of a directive is to say your wishes while you still can, so whats the point when youve lost your mental facility's then change your mind or have others try and change it. Besides with people with dementia etc they change their minds all the time, Will could have given her dialysis and shed start freaking out wondering what hes doing to her.
I get what you mean, but imagine, in a moment of lucidity suddenly finding yourself in a hospital, in pain and struggling to breath. You already forgot that you have Alzheimer's and made that will. Then you see your loved ones beside you, medical personnel standing by, but they're not doing anything. You want to breath but they're just waiting there doing nothing to help you. What a horrible way to go out.
@@iagreewithyou3478 I agree. Anyone who didn't feel a sense of doubt at the moment she begs to be saved, would be a dangerous person I think. Yes it is a hideous illness to watch a loved one go through. The fact is though, that its all in the eye of the beholder. And people are making decisions when they get a diagnosis, based on fear of what may happen to them and fear that they will become so difficult to live with, that their families will suffer. It often makes me sad that people aren't assured they will have a dignified end to their life and will be cared for with respect and dignity until that happens. Maybe they would make a different decision. I doubt anyone gives them the opportunity or the option to consider that.
@@lulunz6809here is no dignity to advanced alzheimer's or dementia. You can barely speak, you can't recognize your loved ones anymore, you soil yourself regularly... It is not a dignified way to go and quality of life is also greatly reduced as the illness progresses.
Not to mentiom that a patient with this diagnosis would likely not be safe to receive dialysis without restraints or sedation, since they could freak out and try to remove the shunt that connects them to the machine. (which isn't just in during dialysis, but usually stays in the arm)
If I got this diagnosis, I would make the exact same choice: Write up a detailed advanced directive that specifies that I do not want any invasive life saving measures performed.
This one hit home. My great grandmother had Alzheimer's and I remember her state despite being a child when she died. My mother who was raised by her told me what a strong, vibrant woman she was before the condition got her. And then my grandmother later developed dementia while I was an adult and it hit hard. Both conditions are like a living death. It takes everything from you and your loved ones don't really get to grieve because despite everything that you are being gone, you are still breathing and a constant physical reminder that you are not really there anymore.
I side with Dr Charles. While I am capable of making decisions I would spare my loved ones that kind of ongoing pain if that condition was in my future and I certainly don't want to lose everything that makes me who I am.
As someone who lost many to Alzheimer's... My grandma would beg to die until the last stage. She was in a lot of mental pain, living in a nightmare. Crying, shouting in her sleep. Alzheimer's is the most evil condition for me.
DNR orders are not legal in my country, if it was she would take it I think.
I just hope I die before the last stage. Alzheimer's patients are not capable of making such decisions.what matters is what she wanted when she had free will. Alzheimer's takes your will and wishes.
My grandmother has had alzhiemers for most of my life and it started to aggressively progress over the last 5 years. All I can say is if I ever am in the same boat I will be going on my own terms while I still have my dignity. Alzhiemers/dementia is just awful.
An aunt of mine had Alzheimer’s, she passed recently.
Also, warning to all doctors; NEVER EVER evade an advance directive!
Sorry for your loss x
Well Goodwin's right, this is really like deja vu 😅 Dr. Halstead really needs to stop going against DNR. I feel like he does it too often. He just has this very strong will to keep everyone alive without considering the ethics
He asked her for verbal consent and she said yes
Her rights and wishes still matter
@@killianmmmoore I feel like it's pretty obvious why we would listen to the extensively documented wishes of someone with Alzheimer's when they are of sound mind versus them panicking when they don't know where they are.
She gave him permission to intubate at the moment, so this is no reason to sue.
@@kaitlintropper2061 He basically demanded that a woman with severe Alzheimer's would give him permission.
@@SoyDrinker It isn't just a black and white situation. The woman had a moment of realization, even though she had Alzheimer's, she still understood the concept of death and knew that she did not want to die. People with the illness aren't completely mentally shut down. And the doctor didn't "demand" anything, it was a question as to if she wanted him to save her life or not. If she wants to live, she should get that decision.
The way he threw the pillow from under her head is amazing!
This wasnt about the patient. It was about the doctor not wanting to see her die. He was acting on his feelings, rather than what his patient wanted. At least own it.
Another example of where one of the docs on this show would be suspended pending a review of their license
It's not up to anyone one doctor in this hospital to decide. It's in grey area and not a clear cut case. And Halstead was right, they should form a committee if they want to stray from a directive and there's some doubt - and yes, there is doubt even if she wasn't lucid again when she was evaluated by the psychiatrist. They can't rely on one doctor to decide her fate, even with decades of experience. And not all family members agree!
I think the show handled this part pretty accurately. It is a grey area, but it's also a clear cut case. Confusion, suspicion, outright paranoia, personality changes are all known "complications" of Alhziemers. It's a grey area, because we as a society are struggling to decide when a person no longer has the right to make choices for themselves. In many parts of the world, people have the right to make advanced directives and deny care for their future selves, knowing that their future self may no longer agree with that decision. In other parts of the world, that is not an option.
This patient made the choice to make an advanced directive. As much as the concept of an advanced directive to refuse treatment is a grey area socially and morally, it's legally enshired and there is no need for an ethics panel. This patient made a choice, and the fact that her disease altered her choice was always possible. It's completely understandable that a doctor coming across situation for the first time (or second time, though he states it's "different", so first time for him), is horrified that her choice is locked in. He's stuck in the grey area. But the hospital has seen this situation many, many times. It's clear cut.
I don't know how it is in the US, but committees can take quite a time to convene, and a long time to reach a decision. Again, I don't know how it is in the US, but here, it would be uncommon to refuse advance care decisions, and would probably also require a lot of professional legal advice.
there not there relying on the patients choice before be drain went south
If that was the case why bother make a contract or signed a paper about it?
The husband had the hardest one here, you don't know what agreement did the wife and husband came up with, im pretty sure the husband was the one who really wanted her to live on but the wife probably convinced her husband not to let her experience the complications of alzheimer's (not really to be taken lightly)
Sometimes, I forgot that this is not House MD... I yelled "Liar, liar, he forged her signatures on those papers!" and "Dr. Charles, how can you be deceived"...
But, it turns out that she really had Alzheimer, and I'm just overreacting. Keep up the good work, dear actors!
Why are people so hellbent on keeping people with such conditions alive?
What kind of quality of life do they have?
They are not the same person anymore.
JFC. How the hell has he not lost his medical licence? EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
Because its a gray area. She very clearly had the will to live.
this is a certified JFC moment.
The same question goes especially for Natalie. She is even worse than Will by a bit. Pretty much everybody here deserve to have their license pulled at least 1,000 times at this point. The only person I feel wasn’t that bad is probably Dr. Charles and Goodwin.
@@cessnacitation-xwhat’s JFC
My granddad died a few weeks ago from dementia, and it was a 15 year long battle. There were some VERY tough moments to decide between; the man we loved and wanted to keep, and the pain and suffering we knew he'd go through down the road.
Last year they had a choice to replace his pacemaker or not, and I *think* my grandma said no. It was an impossible decision, and there was no easy answer at all. She was my granddad's primary carer, and the only one making decisions because he couldn't anymore. I can empathise entirely with this dad.
I’m sorry for your loss. My honest condolences.
Sorry for your loss x
So many comments but try living with someone with dementia.
My father has dementia and my mum bears the brunt of his rage day in day out. When he's lucid, he sounds fine. But I know that even he wouldn't want to suffer once it progresses to a point of helplessness. He's made it clear before what he wants. Unfortunately sometimes people outside see glimpses and they think he's ok. He thinks he can take care of himself and that everything's ok. But he's not the one cleaning the sheets daily and being yelled at. He also has alzheimers. Try getting an old guy to wear his nappies to avoid soiling his clothes to help my mum and he will fight you and yell at you. But when he's nice, he's super nice especially to outsiders. I know he wouldn't want to keep suffering and despite what he says at times and how lucid he sounds, he's not ok. It's easy to just see a person in a short moment, and think she has the capacity to make a decision. Also tv popularises the concept that it's all about saving the patients' lives.... it's actually about respecting what the patient and their family wishes and sometimes, if they want to refuse help, you have to respect that.
I totally get what your saying my Mum fell ill March took till April to get her admitted on 3rd visit to hospital great nhs Britain Not..... she now has been diagnosed with vascular brain disease and parkinsons and now peg fed..... been passed around all over the hospital..... been a totally horrible time so sad I am x
Totally agree with everything you've said. My mum has dementia but if you spent a short time with her, you would think she's fine.
Exactly my point..people never understand the condition of primary caregivers..I am struggling with a mental health patient as my partner. Constant mood swings and rage drains me mentally to an extent that I feel totally lost. People only look at a couple of hours that they see these patients in the public, and don't understand how much the caregivers are struggling.
Big hug sent x
Early onset dementia? I’d hate to say it but it might be best to get your dad in a facility. My dad wasnt so agro but he would one day recall who I was and then another day not know who i was . His neighbour was like you describe your dad.. completely grumpy.. once I took the room tv guide and he just came up to me rolled it and wacked me on the head.. since they were all in a home.. nurses told me to let it go..I feel for your mum. It’s like having a grown up toddler not easy.
How do you know for sure that the patient was of sound mind when signing the DNR or Advanced Directive?
That is a good point. I'm not sure about in the US however here you would have to have medical professional who is able to declare someone is competent to sign the advanced directive along and I would also have a legal professional to witness her signing the document and they need to sign it too. Also the AD should only come into play when the person can't articulate their wishes. I have had a family member die from a decision to stop giving her life saving medical care. Despite having a DNR, and her having a brain injury, they did their best to talk to her and she agreed to stop the dialysis and seemed to understand she would die however they also consulted with all of her children and the doctors agreed that to continue to treat her was futile. They didn't stop treatment until all of the children accepted and agreed it was futile to keep treating her. So it wasn't up to one person to decide to stop treatment despite one of the children having enduring power of attorney. It was a joint decision and everyone knew why it was happening and every attempt was made to involve her too regardless of her brain injury. The children cared for her at home until she died a week later. Advanced Directives need to be updated regularly because people change their minds. Even people with dementia until they stop having moments of clarity and understanding.
My granddad had Alzheimer’s. He died when I was very young so I don’t remember it much, but my family told me about how much he changed as a person and how much he suffered. My gran ended up having a DNR when she died (she also had kidney failure ironically as well as a stroke that left her unable to speak or move). She would have HATED living like this, so I’m glad that she didn’t live long after it happened.
This situation with Dr Halstead undermining made me furious. You do not ignore a DNR or Advanced Directive. It’s like Dr Charles said, the patient does not have the mental capacity to change her mind like that. It seems that Dr Halstead doesn’t understand anything about Alzheimer’s…
I’m just grateful that if I had an advanced directive including a dnr my sister would follow it regardless of what she wants. If I had Alzheimers I’d want to be free from it and my family and friends to be free from what it does to them as quickly as possible.
I feel like even if she wasn't fully there, she still understands the concept of death. So if she says she doesn't want to die, don't let her die.if she says she does, let her.
Nah if I'm at that point, dont listen and let me go.
It's like I would sign a paper to not follow anything after i my dementia worsen and only follow what I signed on the paper, I don't want to be medical help etc etc.
Now it came to the time where she's suffering dementia and she's clinging on life. Why the fck would she sign paper?
If this was the case then a contract could be easily breached because of one word.
It's really complicated 😰😰😰 I understand she has a previous documentation, but still, she must be so scary because the doctors are not helping her (at her point of view)
@erilove593 from her point of view everything is scary. Her husband and daughter sometines appear as strangers pretending they're her family, doesn't know why or where she is at many points in the day. Her life is almost constant suffering and any moments of happiness are short lived, she has no present and no future and she forgets more of the past everyday. This is a nightmare for anyone and that is the reason she signed the advanced directive, no one should live like this
Sharon: I'm Sharon Goodwin, head of administrative.
Molly: yes, I saw you in law and order.....
Nothing like another ‘dose’ or Chicago med :)
Difficult one. That husband is tired while the daughter and the doctor want to hang onto her mother.
People, we have to let people die in peace. Stop hanging onto loved ones. Its almost cruel to prolong a "half" or finished life.
This is why we have ethics department ... simply because we do not agree with the choice and we have the power to make otherwise. What is right or wrong? Sometime the question is more, for who we are working for: the patient.
This is something I hate about Will. He does not care about what his patient wants if he doesn't agree with it. The patients are only worth respecting if they want what he wants.
Oh wow, as they say in my language "the law is sometimes against better human judgement"
If she made that choice being of sound mind before the disease took that from her then her wishes need to be respected no matter the Dr's personal opinion. I've never seen a full episode but I've seen him now ignore a DNR and now an Advanced Directive! If he can't respect a patients wishes then he's in the wrong job!
while i mostly agree with this i don't disagree with what he did in the episode: directly receiving verbal consent from a patient to save their life--especially with witnesses--seems like the right thing to do in this situation, i might be wrong
advanced directives are not things that can't be removed later on in time - patients have the right to change their minds at any stage. When it comes to receiving life saving procedures - they also don't actually need to understand the ins and outs of dialysis or have full cognitive capacity to consent to have their life saved. ethical decisions like this wouldn't have been left to one person in real life the way this show constantly depicts
Thank you for serving me my prescription of Chicago med ❤️
My dad was in the end stages of vascular dementia and had been receiving dialysis for a few years due to kidney disease. In a moment of clarity he told us he didn’t want to “do this” anymore. He hated dialysis. He ended up with gangrene in his foot and doctors told my mom that they’d have to amputate and at his age he might not make it through the surgery and with the dementia he wouldn’t be able to cope with it. She had to decide if to take him off dialysis to end his life because he couldn’t make the decision himself being end stage. It was the toughest decision of her life but she knew what his wishes were. So they took him off and he died in 3 weeks, at home with us around him. In fact, mom and I had been looking through their papers and I found his father’s birth certificate from 1919 in England as well as a very funny baby picture of my brothers that made me laugh. At that exact moment he breathed his last. I like to think his last conscious thought was hearing me laugh.
The parents should have informed their daughter of the mothers directive. She felt like she was losing her mother instead of honoring her wishes, especially because the mother's first reaction after the husband mentioned the DNR was that the husband is a liar.
Dr Holstead was completely wrong as always but I do feel like seeing the daughters reaction and hearing her beg him to save her mother contributed to the decision he ultimately made.
4:46 dad:what did you just do? dr halstead:💀
I work on neuro rehabilitation; you have brain damage but you live and learn how to breathe, eat and move again, some more successful than others but I know its very much possible.
So for me; as long as I can enjoy something about life even if its just good music or a nice taste, life is probably worth living. But my mother has made it clear often that she wants to die if she would be dependent on assistance, it's hard to swallow but we've had a decisive talk and are both happy with the potential situation.
I would be against it, but she did seem to have a momentary occurrence of lucidity AND verbal agreement the whole room and her daughter heard it.
Tough, but to every rule theres an exception.
This is it i think
But should that one moment of possible lucidity ( which is more likely to have been paranoia) completely invalidate a decision that she for herself?.
@@louisemcdonald8613 yes, when they're back in normal Alzheimer's state then what happened 5 minutes before most likely no longer exists in their mind
As someone with a parent with dementia, you can't trust that momentary lucidity, because that's all it is momentary. The rest of the time their cognition is impaired and they can't do basic things for themselves. If it was my mother I would respect the directive she signed.
Nice episode
I definitely understand Will, but dr Charles was in the right here.
in cases like these you really want to make sure you’re giving the patient full autonomy but the question is whether that means honouring their wishes now or when they were made and prepared in advance
I was waiting for them to discover that the father had tricked the mother into signing for insurance or something.
I know this is a different case cause she signed an advance directive, but when a patient can't legally give consent for any reason, is the doctors the ones who should take over and decide what to do, not any family member
So stupid not to be able to let people go.
I swear to god I would hate to have Will as my doctor!
bro the first time i saw patient die and they family was telling me and my partner to save them was so insane because of DNR. just glad i had a travel nurse on the rig with me so I didnt have to actually make any calls. one of the reasions i quit ems, couldnt handle it, props to all the other first responders and med profesionals that can work through that
It's great that doctors want to save lives, however the right to choose weather we live or die is our own choice. I for one would not want to live with a illness that saps the. Life out ofcme
My grandmother died last year, and when my father and aunt took her to the hospital, they signed a bunch of papers about like 'do not ressuscitate' 'no dialysis' because we knew grandma wouldn't have liked that and also, she had been on the brisk of death for a very long time (she was rarely aware of her surroudings, couldn't walk unnasisted, only one kidney was working and she had had a heart attack the previous year). Basically, we just wanted her to have end of life care, and one of the papers even said to keep her on morphine or anything to relieve pain. At some point, one doctor came in and wanted to remove her from the morphine for four hours to "see if she would react." No one of my family was there when this happened but the lady we hired as a caregiver for her (who had been taking care of my grandma for a year at that point) was with her, and told the doctor no and mentioned the papers, but the doctor insisted cause she wanted to see if my grandma would be reactive without it. The caregiver told her that she knew my grandma was in pain due to the way she was struggling to breath and that it would be cruel to remove the morphine and so the doctor let go. Advanced directives and DNR's need to be respected, and even thought it didn't actually happened to my grandma, it was still upsetting. And also, if Dr. Charles, the psychatrist, already said that she didn't have capacity to make that decision, dr Halstead should have respected that
if the lil girl wanna keep mommy alive then she can pay for the medical costs
Isn't this such a senseless debate/law/whatever. A patient is dying due to a condition that can be taken care of by the doctors but the doctor can't move ahead just because the patient has got a directive to that effect which doesn't even bear a reasoning for such a decision. The husband cares more about the directive than the life of his wife. A patient that can be saved is not being saved NOT out of mercy BUT out of stupid directive.
Isn't this called a suicide? Can some one elaborate what I am missing here? I can't wrap my head around this!
The daughter is a great actress
Didn't anyone catch the husband saying to the daughter for her to call him if anything happened to mom. I sorry but that's SUS bro.
Thinking about this and the other episode when Dr. Halstead totally violated a dying cancer patient's DNR: Being a doctor does not give you the right to force your will on another person's body. A patient's right to make their own decisions for their life is supposed to be inviolable. There is no higher responsibility for a doctor in their work than to care for their patients in line with THE PATIENTS' wishes. It's deeply disturbing that there are people in real life who act like this doctor- ready to steamroll the carefully considered conscientious decisions of other, vulnerable individuals as if they have no right to control what happens to their own body. What's the point of saving them physically if you ravage them or their families mentally by ignoring their decisions?
HIS FATHER WALK IN
Dr Charles is the best.
I've worked in dementia wards. This hurts.
Professionals just do not like it when you don't want their professional skills.
Need more doctors who respect an adult individual's wish to no longer receive treatment.
There's fates worse than death 😔
A doctors job isn't to save lives, it's to help people.
In the end, a doctor needs to be professional.
The same doctor that said, that the "we live in a simulation" guy would be able to make rational decisions and thus must not be treated....
As someone who takes care of a loved oone with declining mental health, can confirm, they do get paranoid and even agressive towards care givers, because we sometimes have to do things they dont want to, like giving medicine they dont like, move them to change clothes, diapers or bedding...
I could make a list of agressions i took because the person i take care of did not want to take his prescriptions, got confused about what time period of his life it was, thought he was not on his own home... when the mind deteriorates, we cant predict what will confuse them or how this will affect their behaviour, they can be the best and most patient person on one day and explode in tantrums in the next.
❤❤❤
I mean according to the law a person who is insane with momentary sanity's consent in such stuff is valid
It's not a grey area.
There's paper signed to do it's work.
Ignoring those could lead to some professionals losing their license.
And what do they get result? Saved the person? No they knew they would suffer from alzheimer
Doctors aren't so simple that because you're one of them you ignore all orders and only the "save the patient" is important.
Doctor Halstead is trying let him have his chance
Let me finish watching last night's episode
Halstead is very unprofessional always doing this you are not ever allowed to go against a patients wished as difficult as it is.
Let her go
So not cool mAn
Is no one gonna back him up he was only trying to save her from her own dam idiocy
Omg
So i didn’t watch this episode. Who’s right and who’s wrong?
This was easy to deal with, he should have just stuck his fingers in his ears and said ‘lalalalalala’ while she died. That way she got her wish and he didn’t feel guilty because he couldn’t hear her cry to be saved
That's not right he should listen to her
@@naomiwatson8075 why? When she had the capacity to tell her wishes she didn’t want any of it
All these doctors egos get in the way....she has a right to survive ...
Not sure I follow. If she had a right to survive she won't be in the bed dying. So it seems that what you truly mean is that she has a right to get the best treatment available to prolong her life. The point is: She did not want to exercise that right. Is like buying an all-you-can-eat, maybe you can eat another burger (is your right as you have the capacity) but you don't wanna. Should the restaurant owner force feed you?
she also has a right of self-determination. what even is the purpose of advance directives and POAs if medical professionals would just ignore it
And then she sues and the doctors lose their licence
$18000000 for a hospital for the mc
I would be in a very bad position. On one hand, there’s a patient dying, that needs saving. On another, there’s a patients wishes, to bot have the medication. I would think I would have to do saving the patents life. Life is better then death
How dare he, that's so wrong to ignore what she wants.
It’s a tough call though cause if she wasn’t diagnosed with alzheimers she would have stuck with her decision.
@@Saiyan_Steph that's why she made the plan, to protect her wishes.
@@marieantoinette1360 oh ur talking about dr Halstead my bad, sorry got confused
Does anyone know what happened after or what happened at all cause I’m lost 🤷♂️
She went home with her family to receive hospice care, I don’t think anything legal was perused by the family
How sad
Wow that was interesting
Interesting what did
@@yimwaili5425 I Mean the father does not want to help his wife
 What everyone is watch a cctv camera in the hospital
No one is gonna talk about dr Charles was just on a wheelchair and then suddenly stands up
Not everyone who uses a wheelchair can’t walk. The actor isn’t even disabled, I think he just had a knee injury while filming.
Holstead has a messiah complex
Oh, goodie, if I was a lawyer, a hospital like this would be my wet dream, lol.
Jokes aside, I think anyone losing a loved one to Alzheimer's or dementia would side with respecting the advanced directive, because we know that strong willed people would never, in their sound mind, wish or try to prolong a life where they aren't even a shadow of what they used to be, or wanting to inflict the pain of seeing that upon their caretakers
If this was House M.D they woud've tried to rediagnose and cure her Alzheimers :( here they didnt even try
You can’t cure Alzheimer’s
It’s just a tv show you know?
@@__cherrie_outros_reqsclose1653
Not really...theres never gonna be too many doctors in the world. Currently, most doctors diagnose symptoms,and treat symptoms....a deeper look into the causes of said symptoms will require lengthy testing,team consulations etc...much like you see done on House M.D.
Beyond that,doctors are people....they're not beyond labeling and judging books by the cover...they have to in order to see all the patients they gotta see.
@@DeMishMIsh Because you straight up can't cure alzheimers like hers, it's a destruction of neurons that we haven't properly researched.
There is no cure for Alzheimer’s
Lol
If her problem is just Alzheimer's and why wouldn't she and her husband want her to get treatment for her other physical problems???? Just why?! She wanted to die too soon?
Clearly the daughter disagrees with the father - in cases like that, wouldn’t it be necessary to call the ethics committee?
Not if the patient herseft signed a DNR (or whatever it is called, sorry, I'm not a native speaker) when she could still make decisions.
Afaik, the next of kin (the proxy decision maker) is always the spouse first. If there was no spouse, then adult children, etc. In real life, the doctor might have a meeting between the spouse and the adult children if they disagree on care. But at the end of the day, the spouse has the final say.
i'm glad they fired this dude cause everytime i see him he's breaking some order
I think halstead and manning are a great couple. Because they both fucks up everytime just because they “feel” like something’s right or helpful or wrong. Dude, this is not about your traumas. This is about someone’s life, their living of their death. The fact that, you’ve gone thru a lot doesn’t give you any kind of permission to do smth you think is right. You are a motherfuckin doctor not a god. You’re not the one who decides what’s right or wrong, its the patients themselves.
Yeah just rip the pillow out from under her neck after a fall......
I hate Dr Halstead, hes always shoving his own personal opinions and beliefs into everything. DO NOT QUESTION DR CHARLES LOL HES ALWAYS RIGHT!
Nobody is always right
no dr. charles is not always right he's not the god
Why are those replies so stupid?
No think about how he acted when Reese went against the guy who shot him
okay very sorry. Dr Charles is right 99.7% of the time LOL
While someone may be DNRed, there could be different kinds of care still done. I work in cardiac, and regardless if someone is DNR, we treat them until we have confirmation there is literally no choice, they just cannot be sent to dependency units for more advanced care. This is why I find this shocking: the wife is drowning due to the pulmonary edema, and her husband wants her to drown in agony and die. Dr Charles is wrong: a dementia-esque patient can still make decisions unless they have an incapacity document, which is what we have where I work. Then the family make the decision. If there is no incapacity documentation in place, Dr Charles, the husband, etc, cannot dictate what can or cannot be done. That decision is solely the patient.
Well said.
I would have asked dr charles if he knows what it’s like to be without a parent
I am so baffled that Halstead still has a job
this is just so aggravating. so long as consent can be given the patient has the right to chose their treatment. the husband and the staff are complete twats for letting that woman suffer when she is in full capacity to give consent to save her life.
hope the daughter grows up to despise her dad.
There's a difference between just saying "yes" and giving INFORMED consent.
The whole point is that the woman wasn't actually capable of giving consent to choose treatment, because of her Alzheimers. Being able to speak doesn't mean you're genuinely aware and understand what's going on. The fact was that when she was still of sound mind she *did* choose to sign an advanced directive stating she didn't want to be treated if she got sick.
I don't trust my dad to make decisions in the best interest of my mum so I'm gna make her appoint my 2 siblings as joint lasting power of attorney in the event (touchwood) she loses her mental capacity one day.
You may not Trust your dad, but it's up to your mum who she trusts and wants to make the decisions not you.
Had that woman died the daughter wouldve never looked at her dad the same
Asks Dr Charles' for his professional opinion: 😊
Gets Dr Charles' professional opinion: 🤨🤔
Doesn't like Dr Charles' professional opinion so yells at him and undermines his expertise: 😠😡
8th aha anyway good episode xx
L husband
Tbh if I was the daughter whi saw that I would've just went out of the room and thought "f this I don't wanna see this I'll come back in a sec" but I'm glad the doctor saved the patient he actually listened to what the patient wanted. The father is kinda in the wrong
Wrong! her dementia affected her thinking process and she wrote her wishes when she was well and gave her husband full power if she could no longer make her own decisions the dr is wrong and I'm sick of the times in this series he overrides patients wishes to do what he wants and i am happy he eventually loses his job in the series he is awful and dangerous and i hope i never encounter a doctor like this .
@aprilfisher4947 sh!t, sorry. I didn't watch full ep, I was talking ab what I saw on the clip. Sorry