Since he asked about the extreme spread and the SD together, I would presume both were pertaining to chronograph data. Therefore, he needs to know that SD in that case refers to Standard Deviation of the data.
@@tylerstapleton3310 It’s sort of an average deviation in velocity, but not a straight average. You could think of it as a weighted average where the outliers get extra weight.
Pertaining to the question about my beloved 7mm-08 bullet design. The 140gr Nosler Ballistic tip is an extremely soft, thin jacketed bullet. It does tend to be quite explosive with an impact velocity over 2500 fps. It is best used out of an '08 at shot distances of 200 yards and out. The 150gr Nosler Ballistic tip has a thicker jacket than the 140 and was optimized as a longer range bullet for the 7mm mag. When put in the modest 7mm-08, you have exceptional performance out to about 200 yards on whitetail sized game. Beyond that, the expansion and energy dump of the 150gr starts to diminish. There is one Nosler bullet that really surprised me, the 120gr ballistic tip. The little 120gr bullet was actually optimized for silhouette shooting. Long story short, the original 120gr ballistic tip wouldn't knock down the ram at 200 yards out of the '08 handguns. To resolve this issue, Nosler gave it a much thicker jacket. I have recovered 2 jackets out of game over the years. Both jackets weighed over 60gr each, the lead cores continued on to exit the animals. This means you, essentially, have a 60+ grain monolithic bullet with the shock and energy dump of a cup and core bullet. With a muzzle velocity of 3000 fps, the bullet is extremely effective out to 400 yards. On paper, it is a flatter shooter than the venerable .243 win with a 100 gr bullet at 400 as well.
7mm-08 is awesome. Bullets I've used or heard good things about for this cartridge: 120 Nosler Ballistic Tip, 120 Barnes TTSX, 130 Speer Boat Tail, 140 Nosler Accubond, 150 Hornady ELD-X, 162 Hornady ELD-M. And I almost forgot the little 100 grain Sierra varmint bullet! Those can be incredibly accurate and very low recoil when loaded down with IMR 4895.
130 speer bt varget or 4064 if varget unavailable I came across a ol lb or 4320 at 44 grains and some 120 nosler spritzer bt pre ballistic tip the bullet that made them famous that and the partition but not needed I herd that Txx Barnes 120 blows through elk ? Even moose in Alaska I’ve got better calibers for that
I had a sweet little Model 7 in 7mm-08 in the nineties. I went to college and sold it because I was broke after about 25-30 deer. What a slayer. I had some good times with that light little rifle.👍
I remember as kid seeing advertisements for Lazzeroni rifles. The names of the calibers are what always caught my attention. Names like Firebird and Warbird. Seems their advertisements just disappeared. Don't see anything of them on TH-cam either. I know they still make them. I just looked at their website. Anyone else remember these ads in hunting and shooting magazines?
I remember them. Also the Flash, the Scramjet, the Meteor. They had some HOT rounds! EDIT: Some of their rounds aren't available anymore :( (The Flash for example)
I remember wanting a 7mm 08 after studying ballistic charts. Since I hunt in East Texas I’ve always liked the 308. No need for long action rifles around here. Anyway I found a M700 LVSF. Oh immediately I noticed how flexible the forearm of the stock was. The action was as smooth as glass. I slowly broke in the barrel. My biggest problem was that I could only find 2 factory loads for the gun. It didn’t matter if I was at a gunshow or a Gunshop. One cheap Remington load and one from Nosler. The groups just printed around 2.5” at 100 yards. I’m an accuracy nut. I simply couldn’t live with it. I wanted to try a different stock. I thought that might be the issue. I eventually came across a Tikka 308 and just gave up on the Remington. Why bother throwing money at a gun that still might not shoot well. Of course the Tikka shot great right out of the gate.
So I know I watched this video before but I'm re-watching it because of the 708, so I went to Barnes TTSX bullets 140 grain this year and I did what I was recommended by Barnes& Ron, as far as cleaning my barrel completely before shooting these and I'm getting about half to 5/8 of an inch group which I redid my complete gun in the last year because I just had a stock Thompson center venture compact. Love the gun, shot nosler partitions out of it. 140 grains got three quarter inch groups but I feel that copper is the way to go for the future and my life being at 58 years old. Led might be outdated or outlawed and I'm loving the groups. I'm getting the Thompson center venture. I redid I put a Boyds laminated stock on it. I put Leopold rings on it and bases and I put a leopold three to 15x44 VX5 scope didn't do anything with the trigger because the triggers perfect, the only thing issues I had with the stock was I had to put some shim work in the magazine well because my magazine was too loose inside of what they had. Took three deer with it this year. 2023 and now into 2024. I have one more tag left yet as of February 25th 2024.
I’ve been on the fence of favorite cartridges between the 7-08 and 280 AI for years. Every year older I get, I find myself reaching for one of the 3 lower recoiling 7-08s I have. As someone who started shooting a 30-06 as a teenager, and filled a tractor trailer full of game with that old REM 700, it has retired to the safe for many years. Along with a host of other good company ranging from .223 to .454 that only see use on sentiment alone.
Any cup core bullets one that stands out for the money is the Sierra pro hunter always groups great and smaller than others the only match would be the old red black nosler 120 s in mine 100 each per box. Them spitzer work like a champ Hornady for the money Still under in my custom 20” stainless hart barrel magnum contour 1:10 twist shoots the 123/130 s better but I can print 162 eld x into -1” 4 shots
Ron: another great podcast. I'm looking forward to your upcoming 7mm book. I hope you address an issue that you brought up in a recent comment you made about using monos in the .30-06. You, as well as others, have mentioned that monos perform best with velocity; however with medium velocity cartridges there might not be enough velocity left at farther ranges for the bullet to fully expand, or at least to expand adequately for maximum performance and penetration. That was a comment you made in passing recently when comparing the .30-06 with the .300WM. So what's the best solution when using cartridges like the 7x57 which generally have lower starting velocities? Simply reduce the bullet weight in order to obtain the necessary higher velocity, and compensate for lower BCs, penetration, etc.? Or move up to a higher velocity cartridge, say a .280AI, when using monos in order to maximize BC, penetration, etc.? Thanks. Mike (Florida)
The sectional density is the relationship of bullet mass to its cross section. A heavy for caliber bullet has a higher density than a light-for-caliber. As Ron stated, back when all bullets were pretty much the same, a higher SD bullet tended to penetrate farther. These days, SD is not nearly as useful since bullet construction varies so much. Most monolithic copper or copper alloy bullets penetrate much deeper than their SD would suggest. A bonded or controlled-expansion lead-cored bullet will penetrate farther than a higher SD traditional cup and core bullet as well.
Given that the SD question followed the extreme spread statement, I’m pretty sure he was referring to the standard deviation. This is a statistical analysis of the particular spread of shots and that sort of determines a margin of error for any given shot. It’s a little more complicated than that but that’s the easiest way to explain it. What you are saying about sectional density is correct, higher number is greater penetration and better ability to retain momentum. However, standard deviation is the opposite, a lower number means more accuracy and repeatability.
The 35 Whelen is an awesome cartridge. My "primitive" weapon is a CVA Apex in 35 Whelen. It shoots the Barnes TTSX amazingly well. My bullets holes are usually all touching at 100 yards. Deer and hogs don't go far and with minimal meat loss. Barnes factory 200 grain Whelen loads are 2700fps at the muzzle vs 2475 at the muzzle for Hornady 200 grain InterLocks for the 358 Win. The Barnes 180 grain 35 Whelen loads are 2900 FPS and my personal choice. This is considerably more power than the 358 Win.
Re: 7mm Nosler BT performance. I've loaded the 150 gr BTs for deer since the mid 80s in a 30/06. The first game validated performance was indeed overtly destructive, especially in those early bullets. I believe Nosler did "toughen em up" a bit but I found simply dialing back the load just a little helped a lot. Since most of my shots were
For the team, can we get time stamps of the different answers in the description for future vids? I always enjoy listening to Ron, but sometimes I want a specific answer (like the teased 7-08 loads)
Since I don't take shots on big game beyond about 200-250 yards, I'm more interested in the terminal performance of a bullet than in high BC for hunting. I'll choose solid copper, Swift A-frame, Nosler Partition, etc. in a bolt action rifle, or even hard cast lead in something like a 45-70. I'm under no delusion that I'm the Carlos Hathcock of big game hunting.
It's funny how many times I rewatch these videos on TH-cam and post another comment, even though I realize I probably already posted a comment on this one for the 708 or my 30 ought sick. But my 30-06 is a 1993-94.95 Remington model 700 mountain rifle pencil thin barrel. I free-floated the barrel padded the action and an inch of the barrel new Leopold. Scott brings mounts and went to the Barnes TTSX heart 68 grain getting an inch and a quarter group. I think I might have to rebed the barrel tip?
7 mm08 my go too 45.0 imr 4350 and a 145 speer gs or the 145 bt but I usually run a Sierra 120 pro hunter 43.0 varget gets me 3 k The rem core locks 140 Hornady 139/ 140 sst is the juntion special here always scores
Published BC’s are just a starting point for your ballistic calculations. In reality the BC will vary based on your altitude, barrel twist rate, and bullet velocity. It is quite common to adjust the BC number in one’s calculator to match the actual bullet drops observed when shooting.
Since so many others have already addressed standard deviation I won't say anymore about it. Since you were thinking about getting your Park West in 280AI, I'm curious why you choose a 7x57 over a 7x64? Both are great classic cartridges, but the 7x64 is closer to the 280AI in performance.
SD generally refers to sectional density but it can refer to standard deviation but I’m never really concerned with standard but instead am interested in the extreme deviation and will eliminate loads that have a large extreme deviation
I agree, however for hunting and even small varmint shooting to 300 yards or so, an extreme spread in velocity doesn't make that much difference. Beyond 400 it starts to make a significant difference in where bullets land. If you hope to win a precision target shooting competition or 1,000-yard match, you want the smallest SD and ES numbers possible, i.e. every bullet departing the muzzle at the exact same speed. Dream on.
SD is probably Standard Deviation in this case, like others have mentioned. It's often spat out of a chronograph along with individual bullet velocities, average or "mean" velocity, and ES (extreme spread). When would you ever use such a number? When pondering your next long range shot, perhaps. If your average velocity is 3000 FPS you would use this to calculate bullet drop at the distance you plan on shooting. Your next shot will probably not be 3000 FPS but some other velocity close to that number. An SD of 10 tells you that about 2/3 of the time your velocity will be within 10 FPS of 3000. Over 90% of the time it'll be within 2 Standard Deviations (20 FPS). So when you're planning that next shot you can consider what effect such a deviation in velocity will have. For most hunting situations it's not important. For shooting long range it becomes more significant. A 50 FPS difference in velocity can result in 8-10" of elevation error at 1000 yards. I see this concept more frequently mentioned in terms of ES but it's really the same idea: how much variation in velocity can I expect from a certain gun/ammo. Low ES will correspond to low SD. An ES of 50+ is fairly common in factory ammo. Hand loads can range from there down to 10 FPS or less. An ES of 20 or less is considered pretty good for long range shooting.
True, and somewhere it was the only hunting rifle cartridge available (or the most affordable, more than 7,62x54), the rest would rather carry 12 or 16 gauge shotguns.
I recently did a comparison of the 6.5 RPM to the 270 Win and I’ll say that the 270 really is a mainstay and cornerstone cartridge. The 6.5 rpm which is a weatherby concoction and it’s not got anything on a standard 270 Winchester. Running 140 gr bullets and since weatherby is a 26” barrel the velocities were only around 100 fps apart and in some powders not even that much which can be justified by the 2” barrel differences being the 270 used a 24” pipe. I have been into hand loading for a while now and the more I read on these cartridges the more I see that really there are only a few foundation cartridges that can do it all or that do it all and the rest are off shoots from them.
Hornady manufactures 275 Rigby factory ammunition ( 275 Rigby 140 gr Interlock SP). So, if someone wants to have a nostalgic 275 Rigby marked rifle, but not handload for it, it's still possible. I have a Ruger African, 275 Rigby and hope to bring it to Africa someday. I hand load for it, but the factory 140 gr Hornady ammunition shoots well.
Those 139g CX by Hornady are pretty awesome. Legally I don't need to use copper in my state but they shoot accurately and drop whitetail in their tracks, for me at least.
Projectiles aren't normally designed for specific cartridges, but they are designed for specific impact velocities and applications. Generally speaking, as you move up in bullet weight, you're looking for more penetration. Nosler does this by making their jackets thicker, which provides slower, more controlled expansion.
That’s generally true, but the Nosler Long Range Accubond has a thinner jacket than the standard Accubond so that it will expand reliably at longer ranges as velocity increases while still penetrating. The down side is high impact velocities at close range with explosive meat destruction and maybe not as good penetration as with the standard design.
@davewinter2688 exactly. The only way around that trade off is to use monolithic projectiles. There's still a tradeoff to deal with, but the working envelope is MUCH larger.
@@nospam3409 I did think about that. I'm aware that the monolithic bullets can equal or exceed the penetration of lead core bullets with lighter bullets when those lighter bullets are pushed to the velocities needed to reach their potential. I haven't researched their potential in the 7x57. How much lighter a monolithic bullet at what velocity does it take to equal the 175 grain ABLR or Partition style bullets? I realize with the lighter weight it could shoot somewhat flatter, but can it increase the effective range of the 7x57. I'm old but at least curious.
@@davewinter2688 I haven't used them in 7mm, but my guess would be that a 140gr monolithic would match or exceed a 175gr cup and core. I've shot them from my 25-06 and my 6.5 Grendel, with the Grendel seeing most of the work. My longest shot on medium size game was a nice 8pt white tail at 297 yds that field dressed at 185 lbs. He was quartering away REAL heavy. I hit him in one of the rear most ribs, went through one lung and the heart, and exited just in front of the opposite shoulder. Id estimate that I had about 30" of penetration. That was with a 105 gr MKZ from Cavity Back Bullets. My 24" barrel pushes them over 2800 fps with a warm charge of N530. I did the redneck milk jug test with it at 400 yards, and it was lodged in the back wall of the 4th jug and the expansion was about 50%. This load shoots 1/2 MOA or better for me so its the only load I've ever hunted with from that rifle, but I think I'd need to be shooting a 140gr cup and core bullet to get that kind of penetration from a Grendel, and I don't think the Grendel won't push a 140gr bullet fast enough to expand reliably at 300 yds. A 123gr SST would have probably expanded at 300, but the penetration would have been a LOT less. I'm using Sig's 125gr monolithic HP (factory load) in my 300 BO this year just to see how it performs. I have an accurate reload that uses the 125gr MKZ from Cavity Back. I'll be transitioning to that after this season, but I wanted to see how Sig's factory load preforms on deer because I have several boxes of it and it gives me good accuracy and good velocity. One thing I will say is that if you are going with monolithic bullets, be careful with Barnes. They work well, but they need an impact velocity of at least 2000 fps to perform reliably. Custom bullet makers like Cavity Back, Hammer, and Maker Bullets design their bullets to expand down under 1500 fps. Grain for grain, monolithic bullets also require a faster twist to stabilize. I see that Maker Bullets offers their 7mm TRex in 120, 140, 150, 160, and 175gr. Depending on the twist of your barrel, you might have trouble stabilizing anything over 150gr, but that's a guess on my part. I'd think that a 150gr 7mm TRex would be adequate for buffalo though... ;)
@@nospam3409 I’m not talking about standard run of the mill cup and core bullets. Just high quality, heavy constructed bonded bullets like the Accubonds or the H mantles like the partition. I’m not likely to jump to the monolithic designs as anything thing I shoot at probably won’t be past 300 yards even on my farm where i could have a shot past 400 yards across a soybean field. That’s too far for me in my somewhat advanced age and diminished capabilities. I have lots of lead based bullets to load in various cartridges on my bench. I do have a couple of boxes of the Barnes 130 grain 270 Vortex red tipped TSX factory loads. I’m saving those for if my health improves enough and I have to go to the communist block state of California to hunt where the non lead option is the only option.
I used to be a weatherby fan, I like the vanguard rifles and I still own a 300 wby but I will say that there not really that splendid in todays market, they are not efficient at all and they don’t actually gain a person much more over standard chamberings in like calibers. I can actually say the 300 wby versus a 300 wsm the weatherby falls behind it, the short mag actually can perform with higher velocity in a shorter barrel in a shorter cartridge and more efficient cartridge. Using less powder which matters if your a hand loader, I figured out with a certain load the difference of powder between the 300 wsm and the weatherby to accomplish same velocities was 17 cartridges more I’d save in powder for the 300 wsm over the weatherby. That’s nearly a box of ammo more of shooting. That’s a lot to me, ammo is cheaper for the wsm over the weatherby and I’d say the standard 300 win mag is too matter of fact I know it is. I still like the weatherby but it’s probably the only weatherby cartridge I like and it’s not even the best
Regarding the question asked by one of your viewers on BC, SD, and ES and what they mean, I wanted to add two cents. His question is confusing, because in context, he asked both about extreme spread - which is a statistic - and ballistic coefficient - which is an attribute of the bullet related to its physics. Thus, in context, when he asks about SD, you can't tell if he's referring to SD meaning standard deviation, a statistic, or SD meaning sectional density, which is an attribute of the bullet related to its physics (mass and diameter). You answered the latter, which is calculated by taking the bullet weight in grains/7000 - i.e. the bullet's weight in pounds - divided by the diameter of the bullet (along its axis of travel) measured in inches, squared. That gives you the initial sectional density, which is a predictor of the potential penetration capability of the bullet compared to other bullets of the same shape. There is also the terminal sectional density, which is more complex, because it takes into account the weight and cross-sectional area of the bullet after it has come to a stop in the animal. Both the weight and the cross-sectional area may be different from the initial SD, if the bullet has shed weight after expanding and losing lead (mass), and increased its frontal area by virtue of that expansion. Obviously, an exposed lead hollow point is much more likely to have a lower terminal sectional density than, for example, a fully-jacketed military round. So the terminal sectional density, which would be measured after recovery from an animal, is a bullet characteristic that is important to know when hunting animals, for example, that require deep penetration to reach the vitals. As for the former - Standard Deviation - it is a statistic widely used in science, etc. for its robustness, and may be greatly affected by extreme spread. It is a statistic calculated based on the dispersion of many bullets shot at a target from an arbitrary point on that target, chosen, typically, at or near the center of the group. Its value is that SD is a commonly used statistic when assessing the consistency of a population based on a sample - i.e. how accurate a rifle shooting that particular load is likely to be, based on the behavior of a sample of, say 5 or 10 rounds of that ammunition fired at a target and measured. For example: let's assume that you fire 5 shots at the x ring and then measure the distance from the center of the x to the center of each bullet hole. You would add up the distances and divide by 5; that gives you the Mean distance. You would then take each distance and subtract the mean from it, to get 5 numbers that represent the difference from the mean - positive or negative. Now comes the math: square each of those numbers. Then add the squares together. Divide the result by 5 - that gives you the average (squared) deviation from the mean. Finally, take the square root of that number. That's the Standard Deviation. Aren't you glad you asked? Oh - that's right; you didn't ask. Or - just plug the numbers into a standard deviation calculator on the Internet. Yeah, that's it - I like that idea better. What it tells you, however, is useful; if the standard deviation is large, since you can actually estimate, for a large number of shots, how many are likely to fall within that deviation from the mean - i.e. the accuracy of the round - you can compare it with another round with a smaller standard deviation and how many shots are likely to fall within its deviation from the mean - assuming a normal distribution of shots. The result will have a pretty robust and standardized, reliable meaning. Yes, it's a very picky and scientific measure, but it is also very systematic - which is why it is used in scientific research as a measure of the quality of observations, or the consistency of some factor being observed in nature. Anyway, SD can have two meanings, so I just thought I'd chime in to make sure both are covered. I figure if I had to suffer through this stuff in statistics class, I'd share the pain with your audience. I hope this contributes to your video, and doesn't scare viewers away. As always, thanks for the video - very informative.
Mr spomer What's your thoughts on a 303 brittish for hunting moose, i inherited a lee enfield no 4 mk 2, what grain bullet should I choose if it's even viable as a good hunting gun
I have no idea what Mr. Spomer will say, but, as an Enfield àfficionado (I own 5 Lee Enfields of various models and 3 P-13s). My first rifle was a Lee Enfield Cavalry Carbine. Built in 1898 and the twist rate wants a 215gn bullet (nearly impossible to find today, so I cast my own). Shooting a 180 gn off-the-shelf cartridges, ALWAYS scored on animals. Knocked der down, moose fall down anyway.. My No 4's shoot 150s, 174s, or 180s. If you don't handload, you'll mostly be stuck buying 180s. A 180gn bullet from a No 4 leaves the barrel at about 2400 fps. That'll take ANYTHING out to 200yds. Moose, deer, black bear ... basically ANYTHING Eastern North America makes. Those rifles and 174gn bullets have been doing this in Canada for over a century, even polar bears in the North. JMHO, they do fine on moose.
@teddahrable thanks man, I have a buddy that gave me a lee loader, but never tried doing any of my own hand loading I have a box of 180s maybe just best to sight it with that, thanks for you input bud
I didn't have great success when I first tried to handload with a LeeLoader. No experience. That was fixed by a mentor. I have a Lee Loader for EVERY cartridge I own, it's a great tool. You have a great resource I didn't have. Watch some videos, learn about handloading. I have tons of reloading equipment now. I love reloading. Enjoy shooting, enjoy hunting.
I guess it would depend on where you live, I live in wood country where anything over a 100 yds while not unheard of are not the norms. So i used 120 gr hand loads, down at min velocity. But I think 140 gr at a midrange load would have been better. But in open country push it. Just my opinion.
PHs RAVED abpout the 7mm Mauser for elephants...so there is that. Reloading? WIth apologies to the immortal words of Mr Checkers "Comon baby...let's talk about twist...wop wop
I don't know that many PHs raved a out 7x57 Mauser for elephant, but at least one commercial ivory hunter, W.D.M. "Karamojo" Bell, did. He used a 275 Rigby "magazine rifle" (bolt-action) to collect 800 pachyderms. The rest of his 1,100 or so total elephant were collected with various other cartridges.
Unless, of course, you handload. Loading a 150gn bullet in a 7.62x39mm turns it into a superior cartridge. I have shot dozens of Alberta Whitetail deer with a Remington 799 chambered in 762x39mm. Of course, i would not use it on a moose, and it won't compare if you use a 170gn in the 30-30, but it is a very viable deer and hog round.
If i remember right, the formula for sectional density sonehow involves the square of the bullet diameter. Not sure if the bullet weight has to be converted to decimal of a piund or not (dive grain weight by 7000). But I don't know the whole formula. Anybody out there know it?
The gap between 35 Whelen and the 358 Win seems to be a fair bit more than the difference between the 30-06 and 308. Load data on the Hodgdon site shows the Whelen pushing 180 grain bullets in the 2,800-2,900 fps range, where the 358 is around 2,500-2,600. Moving up to 225 grain bullets, the Whelen is around 2,500-2,600 and the Winchester has dropped down to 2,300-2,400. Consistently a 200 to 300 fps gain.
Not that it's important, but for posterity's sake: I can find 3 factory loads online today. Winchester 200 grain power points, Whelen at 2,800 and the 358 at 2,490 (310 fps difference.) Two different 225 grain loads from Buffalo Bore, Whelen at 2,800 and Win at 2,500 (300fps difference.)
I absolutely love my 35 Whelen AI. 180gr TTSX @ 3075 fps for deer and 254 Power Hammer @ 2700 fps for large or dangerous game are absolutely incredible. I could never imagine being satisfied with the paltry ballistics of the 358
Loads for 35 Whelen vs 358 Winchester vary considerably from manual to manual for the different bullet weights. Usually the Nosler loads are considerably faster than Hornady. I have both rifles. I think the 200 grain is usually about the heaviest top weight in the 358 because of case capacity. Usually those are about 2500 fps whereas the 35 Whelen will push the 250 grain bullets to 2500 fps or higher and the 200 -225 weights up to close to 2700 or maybe even 2800 depending on powder. The same sort of things can be said for factory loads. The old Remington Core-Lokt loads, notorious for not making their advertised velocities, can hardly get out of their own way. They’re still good for whitetails and elk, moose or caribou at moderate ranges. I don’t know of any really hot factory 358 Winchester loads, but the hottest factory 35 Whelen load that I’m familiar with is the Hornady 200 grain Superformance with advertised 2910 fps out of a 24” barrel. That matches the 358 Norma Magnum with the same bullet weight. On both ends of the rifle!
Well Ron as I've watched a a lot of your videos and it seems that bc plays a large roll in your opinions on ballistics even when your talking a 200 yard cartridge bc can be important though as you have said it's more critical in long range but the bc and the ability to shoot longer than 300 yards is different 7 prc 6.5 Creedmoor and even 7mm rem mag all have high bc at a 100 or even 250 yards with equivalent bullets the difference is minimal and a deer bear or elk won't k ow the difference it's not just you but many guys are hu g up on ballistics at long range when most shots are well inside the range that the bc will benefit you on an animal
You're right, curtis, but since one never knows at what distance a shot opportunity might arise, why not choose a bullet with the higher B.C., all else being equal? Same philosophy applies to choosing a 308 Win instead of 30-30 Win. Both work at 50 yards, but 308 better at 250.
@RonSpomerOutdoors that is true though the we know what game and terrains we will be hunting in and our maximum abilities which the rifle far superior to ours there for not making a high bc bullet the best because it has better flight not better terminal ballistics
My uncle once took an African safari hunt several years ago, he shot all his animals with a .270 win. Catch is, his (handloaded) ammo disappeared in transit and he had to buy factory rounds while there to hunt. And, the only .270 ammo he could find there were PMC brand, typical cup and core soft points. He still killed all the animals he had planned, even with only using that ammo.
I just went to copper on my 30.6 and my 708, the cost difference is actually cheaper than the bolts I was shooting before, the bullets I was shooting before was a nozzler partition. But I feel that in my lifetime being at 58 years old living in Pennsylvania that some point they're going to eliminate the use of lead, for hunting. So I wanted to try copper so I tried to Barnes TTSX
@leskrug9266 Yes, you're very right. Some bullets like the bonded ones are really expensive as well, and I also approach 60 - and they have come a long way over the years with the copper bullets and they will also get the job done, GOD BLESS .
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Since he asked about the extreme spread and the SD together, I would presume both were pertaining to chronograph data. Therefore, he needs to know that SD in that case refers to Standard Deviation of the data.
Yes sir, you are 100% correct
Exactly what I was thinking only.
Yes, average difference in velocity. Standard Deviation. Great explanation of sectional density though👍
@@tylerstapleton3310
It’s sort of an average deviation in velocity, but not a straight average. You could think of it as a weighted average where the outliers get extra weight.
Right on brother. Can’t believe Ron missed that.
I love my 7mmO8!
Ron, I think in this scenario the SD they're looking for is Standard Deviation. Thanks, love you shows
Pertaining to the question about my beloved 7mm-08 bullet design.
The 140gr Nosler Ballistic tip is an extremely soft, thin jacketed bullet. It does tend to be quite explosive with an impact velocity over 2500 fps. It is best used out of an '08 at shot distances of 200 yards and out.
The 150gr Nosler Ballistic tip has a thicker jacket than the 140 and was optimized as a longer range bullet for the 7mm mag. When put in the modest 7mm-08, you have exceptional performance out to about 200 yards on whitetail sized game. Beyond that, the expansion and energy dump of the 150gr starts to diminish.
There is one Nosler bullet that really surprised me, the 120gr ballistic tip. The little 120gr bullet was actually optimized for silhouette shooting. Long story short, the original 120gr ballistic tip wouldn't knock down the ram at 200 yards out of the '08 handguns. To resolve this issue, Nosler gave it a much thicker jacket. I have recovered 2 jackets out of game over the years. Both jackets weighed over 60gr each, the lead cores continued on to exit the animals. This means you, essentially, have a 60+ grain monolithic bullet with the shock and energy dump of a cup and core bullet. With a muzzle velocity of 3000 fps, the bullet is extremely effective out to 400 yards. On paper, it is a flatter shooter than the venerable .243 win with a 100 gr bullet at 400 as well.
SD is the standard deviation, which is the plus or minus amount from the average, most times it winds up being half of the ES, the extreme spread
Extreme spread can be much more than double the standard deviation in a shot string of 10 or more shots.
7mm-08 is awesome. Bullets I've used or heard good things about for this cartridge: 120 Nosler Ballistic Tip, 120 Barnes TTSX, 130 Speer Boat Tail, 140 Nosler Accubond, 150 Hornady ELD-X, 162 Hornady ELD-M. And I almost forgot the little 100 grain Sierra varmint bullet! Those can be incredibly accurate and very low recoil when loaded down with IMR 4895.
130 speer bt varget or 4064 if varget unavailable I came across a ol lb or 4320 at 44 grains and some 120 nosler spritzer bt pre ballistic tip the bullet that made them famous that and the partition but not needed I herd that Txx Barnes 120 blows through elk ? Even moose in Alaska I’ve got better calibers for that
I had a sweet little Model 7 in 7mm-08 in the nineties. I went to college and sold it because I was broke after about 25-30 deer. What a slayer. I had some good times with that light little rifle.👍
Mr.Jones...i bought that exact same rig...couple years ago... what a,
Sweet little setup..I haven't shot anything as yet
But I feel confident in my choice.
From the groups I be seem
@@RichardELee-wt4jh 👍
@@RichardELee-wt4jh7mm08 is Gods's whitetail round. You will have great success if you focus on your skills as a hunter.
The barnes 120 ttsx is a fine shooting load in 7mm-08
yep......place it on top of some IMR-4064
you are both very correct sirs.
I think he may have been referring to SD for standard deviation? I assume since he asked about ES in the same question.
I remember as kid seeing advertisements for Lazzeroni rifles. The names of the calibers are what always caught my attention. Names like Firebird and Warbird. Seems their advertisements just disappeared. Don't see anything of them on TH-cam either. I know they still make them. I just looked at their website. Anyone else remember these ads in hunting and shooting magazines?
I remember them. Also the Flash, the Scramjet, the Meteor. They had some HOT rounds! EDIT: Some of their rounds aren't available anymore :( (The Flash for example)
SD on a chronograph is standard deviation.
Same here. Love it! I shoot 120 ttsx's for most things and always have a few 160 bonded bear claws with me, just in case I need more punch.
7.08 👍👍👍👌
I remember wanting a 7mm 08 after studying ballistic charts. Since I hunt in East Texas I’ve always liked the 308. No need for long action rifles around here. Anyway I found a M700 LVSF. Oh immediately I noticed how flexible the forearm of the stock was. The action was as smooth as glass. I slowly broke in the barrel. My biggest problem was that I could only find 2 factory loads for the gun. It didn’t matter if I was at a gunshow or a Gunshop. One cheap Remington load and one from Nosler. The groups just printed around 2.5” at 100 yards. I’m an accuracy nut. I simply couldn’t live with it. I wanted to try a different stock. I thought that might be the issue. I eventually came across a Tikka 308 and just gave up on the Remington. Why bother throwing money at a gun that still might not shoot well. Of course the Tikka shot great right out of the gate.
7mm-08 loves 110 gr ttsx pushed super fast never had a deer take more than a step hop or jump, most simply drop and wag their tail a bit
So who’s the 110 Barnes works on game bane u take a shoulder shot like most Barnes it’s why I like them in the 300 wsm and 35 wheeelan
How my bag
@@kencleg7721 always exit never found one in any animal,,,,I run 130 gr ttsx in the 300 wby mag,,,at 0ver 3800 fps
So I know I watched this video before but I'm re-watching it because of the 708, so I went to Barnes TTSX bullets 140 grain this year and I did what I was recommended by Barnes& Ron, as far as cleaning my barrel completely before shooting these and I'm getting about half to 5/8 of an inch group which I redid my complete gun in the last year because I just had a stock Thompson center venture compact. Love the gun, shot nosler partitions out of it. 140 grains got three quarter inch groups but I feel that copper is the way to go for the future and my life being at 58 years old. Led might be outdated or outlawed and I'm loving the groups. I'm getting the Thompson center venture. I redid I put a Boyds laminated stock on it. I put Leopold rings on it and bases and I put a leopold three to 15x44 VX5 scope didn't do anything with the trigger because the triggers perfect, the only thing issues I had with the stock was I had to put some shim work in the magazine well because my magazine was too loose inside of what they had. Took three deer with it this year. 2023 and now into 2024. I have one more tag left yet as of February 25th 2024.
The terminal ascent is a fantastic hunting bullet
Old-Timers always had a tasco scope 4 x32, I buy the cheapest Leopold I can find, they were just perfect for my 300 yd deer hunting
I love 7mm I have 7mmx30 waters, 7mm08 and 7mag
Hey Ron, in the context of speaking about ES, SD also refers to "standard deviation" when looking at chronograph details.
Ron doesn’t like the 7.62x39 because it was used against American troops, so he ordered a 7x57 Mauser.
Oh well what's a few angry Spaniards between friends
* Sounds reasonable to me.
Generational memory. The Spanish-American War predates the Mauser 98, and there's never been any really lasting animosity to the Spanish.
Yes, but he didn't order a _Spanish_ Mauser.
I’ve been on the fence of favorite cartridges between the 7-08 and 280 AI for years. Every year older I get, I find myself reaching for one of the 3 lower recoiling 7-08s I have. As someone who started shooting a 30-06 as a teenager, and filled a tractor trailer full of game with that old REM 700, it has retired to the safe for many years. Along with a host of other good company ranging from .223 to .454 that only see use on sentiment alone.
It would be fun to hear about the Sako 7x33
Any cup core bullets one that stands out for the money is the Sierra pro hunter always groups great and smaller than others the only match would be the old red black nosler 120 s in mine 100 each per box. Them spitzer work like a champ Hornady for the money Still under in my custom 20” stainless hart barrel magnum contour 1:10 twist shoots the 123/130 s better but I can print 162 eld x into -1” 4 shots
Ron: another great podcast. I'm looking forward to your upcoming 7mm book. I hope you address an issue that you brought up in a recent comment you made about using monos in the .30-06. You, as well as others, have mentioned that monos perform best with velocity; however with medium velocity cartridges there might not be enough velocity left at farther ranges for the bullet to fully expand, or at least to expand adequately for maximum performance and penetration. That was a comment you made in passing recently when comparing the .30-06 with the .300WM. So what's the best solution when using cartridges like the 7x57 which generally have lower starting velocities? Simply reduce the bullet weight in order to obtain the necessary higher velocity, and compensate for lower BCs, penetration, etc.? Or move up to a higher velocity cartridge, say a .280AI, when using monos in order to maximize BC, penetration, etc.? Thanks. Mike (Florida)
The sectional density is the relationship of bullet mass to its cross section. A heavy for caliber bullet has a higher density than a light-for-caliber. As Ron stated, back when all bullets were pretty much the same, a higher SD bullet tended to penetrate farther.
These days, SD is not nearly as useful since bullet construction varies so much. Most monolithic copper or copper alloy bullets penetrate much deeper than their SD would suggest. A bonded or controlled-expansion lead-cored bullet will penetrate farther than a higher SD traditional cup and core bullet as well.
Standard deviation since it was listed next to extreme spread.
Given that the SD question followed the extreme spread statement, I’m pretty sure he was referring to the standard deviation. This is a statistical analysis of the particular spread of shots and that sort of determines a margin of error for any given shot. It’s a little more complicated than that but that’s the easiest way to explain it. What you are saying about sectional density is correct, higher number is greater penetration and better ability to retain momentum. However, standard deviation is the opposite, a lower number means more accuracy and repeatability.
The 35 Whelen is an awesome cartridge. My "primitive" weapon is a CVA Apex in 35 Whelen. It shoots the Barnes TTSX amazingly well. My bullets holes are usually all touching at 100 yards. Deer and hogs don't go far and with minimal meat loss. Barnes factory 200 grain Whelen loads are 2700fps at the muzzle vs 2475 at the muzzle for Hornady 200 grain InterLocks for the 358 Win. The Barnes 180 grain 35 Whelen loads are 2900 FPS and my personal choice. This is considerably more power than the 358 Win.
Agree that wheelan out shoots most .243 s 55 4350 or 57 varget those varget loads and 225 Barnes is 2600 and puts them into one hole
Thanks for another informative video.
120 nosler BT are great and good friend swears by 140 partitions
I figure he was ask about the Standard Deviation but I may be wrong.
Same as I was thinking
That terminal assent is great.
Re: 7mm Nosler BT performance. I've loaded the 150 gr BTs for deer since the mid 80s in a 30/06. The first game validated performance was indeed overtly destructive, especially in those early bullets. I believe Nosler did "toughen em up" a bit but I found simply dialing back the load just a little helped a lot. Since most of my shots were
For the team, can we get time stamps of the different answers in the description for future vids? I always enjoy listening to Ron, but sometimes I want a specific answer (like the teased 7-08 loads)
7mm08 , 140 gr Nosler partition !
That or accu bonds ❤️
Since I don't take shots on big game beyond about 200-250 yards, I'm more interested in the terminal performance of a bullet than in high BC for hunting. I'll choose solid copper, Swift A-frame, Nosler Partition, etc. in a bolt action rifle, or even hard cast lead in something like a 45-70. I'm under no delusion that I'm the Carlos Hathcock of big game hunting.
Ron, you speak my lingo
It's funny how many times I rewatch these videos on TH-cam and post another comment, even though I realize I probably already posted a comment on this one for the 708 or my 30 ought sick. But my 30-06 is a 1993-94.95 Remington model 700 mountain rifle pencil thin barrel. I free-floated the barrel padded the action and an inch of the barrel new Leopold. Scott brings mounts and went to the Barnes TTSX heart 68 grain getting an inch and a quarter group. I think I might have to rebed the barrel tip?
7 mm08 my go too 45.0 imr 4350 and a 145 speer gs or the 145 bt but I usually run a Sierra 120 pro hunter 43.0 varget gets me 3 k The rem core locks 140 Hornady 139/ 140 sst is the juntion special here always scores
The b.c for .22 lr is fairly hard to get usually.
A lot of them vary a fair bit even between standard 40 grain projectiles
Published BC’s are just a starting point for your ballistic calculations. In reality the BC will vary based on your altitude, barrel twist rate, and bullet velocity. It is quite common to adjust the BC number in one’s calculator to match the actual bullet drops observed when shooting.
Since so many others have already addressed standard deviation I won't say anymore about it. Since you were thinking about getting your Park West in 280AI, I'm curious why you choose a 7x57 over a 7x64? Both are great classic cartridges, but the 7x64 is closer to the 280AI in performance.
7mm08 ai is my favorite
SD generally refers to sectional density but it can refer to standard deviation but I’m never really concerned with standard but instead am interested in the extreme deviation and will eliminate loads that have a large extreme deviation
I agree, however for hunting and even small varmint shooting to 300 yards or so, an extreme spread in velocity doesn't make that much difference. Beyond 400 it starts to make a significant difference in where bullets land. If you hope to win a precision target shooting competition or 1,000-yard match, you want the smallest SD and ES numbers possible, i.e. every bullet departing the muzzle at the exact same speed. Dream on.
270 have a huge following in South Africa. Most farms don’t let you hunt with anythingsmaller than 270
SD is probably Standard Deviation in this case, like others have mentioned. It's often spat out of a chronograph along with individual bullet velocities, average or "mean" velocity, and ES (extreme spread). When would you ever use such a number? When pondering your next long range shot, perhaps. If your average velocity is 3000 FPS you would use this to calculate bullet drop at the distance you plan on shooting. Your next shot will probably not be 3000 FPS but some other velocity close to that number. An SD of 10 tells you that about 2/3 of the time your velocity will be within 10 FPS of 3000. Over 90% of the time it'll be within 2 Standard Deviations (20 FPS). So when you're planning that next shot you can consider what effect such a deviation in velocity will have. For most hunting situations it's not important. For shooting long range it becomes more significant. A 50 FPS difference in velocity can result in 8-10" of elevation error at 1000 yards. I see this concept more frequently mentioned in terms of ES but it's really the same idea: how much variation in velocity can I expect from a certain gun/ammo. Low ES will correspond to low SD. An ES of 50+ is fairly common in factory ammo. Hand loads can range from there down to 10 FPS or less. An ES of 20 or less is considered pretty good for long range shooting.
2606 is cool but really needs a faster twist rate with heavier high bc bullets
The 7.62x39 also has lots of history, but not to us Americans, the 762x39's history is anchored to the Eastern countries.
True, and somewhere it was the only hunting rifle cartridge available (or the most affordable, more than 7,62x54), the rest would rather carry 12 or 16 gauge shotguns.
I recently did a comparison of the 6.5 RPM to the 270 Win and I’ll say that the 270 really is a mainstay and cornerstone cartridge. The 6.5 rpm which is a weatherby concoction and it’s not got anything on a standard 270 Winchester. Running 140 gr bullets and since weatherby is a 26” barrel the velocities were only around 100 fps apart and in some powders not even that much which can be justified by the 2” barrel differences being the 270 used a 24” pipe. I have been into hand loading for a while now and the more I read on these cartridges the more I see that really there are only a few foundation cartridges that can do it all or that do it all and the rest are off shoots from them.
Hornady manufactures 275 Rigby factory ammunition ( 275 Rigby 140 gr Interlock SP). So, if someone wants to have a nostalgic 275 Rigby marked rifle, but not handload for it, it's still possible. I have a Ruger African, 275 Rigby and hope to bring it to Africa someday. I hand load for it, but the factory 140 gr Hornady ammunition shoots well.
7mm-08. 139 Hornady CX. Staball 6.5.
Those 139g CX by Hornady are pretty awesome. Legally I don't need to use copper in my state but they shoot accurately and drop whitetail in their tracks, for me at least.
SD could mean Standard Deviation
Projectiles aren't normally designed for specific cartridges, but they are designed for specific impact velocities and applications. Generally speaking, as you move up in bullet weight, you're looking for more penetration. Nosler does this by making their jackets thicker, which provides slower, more controlled expansion.
That’s generally true, but the Nosler Long Range Accubond has a thinner jacket than the standard Accubond so that it will expand reliably at longer ranges as velocity increases while still penetrating. The down side is high impact velocities at close range with explosive meat destruction and maybe not as good penetration as with the standard design.
@davewinter2688 exactly. The only way around that trade off is to use monolithic projectiles. There's still a tradeoff to deal with, but the working envelope is MUCH larger.
@@nospam3409 I did think about that. I'm aware that the monolithic bullets can equal or exceed the penetration of lead core bullets with lighter bullets when those lighter bullets are pushed to the velocities needed to reach their potential. I haven't researched their potential in the 7x57. How much lighter a monolithic bullet at what velocity does it take to equal the 175 grain ABLR or Partition style bullets? I realize with the lighter weight it could shoot somewhat flatter, but can it increase the effective range of the 7x57. I'm old but at least curious.
@@davewinter2688 I haven't used them in 7mm, but my guess would be that a 140gr monolithic would match or exceed a 175gr cup and core. I've shot them from my 25-06 and my 6.5 Grendel, with the Grendel seeing most of the work. My longest shot on medium size game was a nice 8pt white tail at 297 yds that field dressed at 185 lbs. He was quartering away REAL heavy. I hit him in one of the rear most ribs, went through one lung and the heart, and exited just in front of the opposite shoulder. Id estimate that I had about 30" of penetration. That was with a 105 gr MKZ from Cavity Back Bullets. My 24" barrel pushes them over 2800 fps with a warm charge of N530. I did the redneck milk jug test with it at 400 yards, and it was lodged in the back wall of the 4th jug and the expansion was about 50%. This load shoots 1/2 MOA or better for me so its the only load I've ever hunted with from that rifle, but I think I'd need to be shooting a 140gr cup and core bullet to get that kind of penetration from a Grendel, and I don't think the Grendel won't push a 140gr bullet fast enough to expand reliably at 300 yds. A 123gr SST would have probably expanded at 300, but the penetration would have been a LOT less.
I'm using Sig's 125gr monolithic HP (factory load) in my 300 BO this year just to see how it performs. I have an accurate reload that uses the 125gr MKZ from Cavity Back. I'll be transitioning to that after this season, but I wanted to see how Sig's factory load preforms on deer because I have several boxes of it and it gives me good accuracy and good velocity.
One thing I will say is that if you are going with monolithic bullets, be careful with Barnes. They work well, but they need an impact velocity of at least 2000 fps to perform reliably. Custom bullet makers like Cavity Back, Hammer, and Maker Bullets design their bullets to expand down under 1500 fps. Grain for grain, monolithic bullets also require a faster twist to stabilize. I see that Maker Bullets offers their 7mm TRex in 120, 140, 150, 160, and 175gr. Depending on the twist of your barrel, you might have trouble stabilizing anything over 150gr, but that's a guess on my part. I'd think that a 150gr 7mm TRex would be adequate for buffalo though... ;)
@@nospam3409 I’m not talking about standard run of the mill cup and core bullets. Just high quality, heavy constructed bonded bullets like the Accubonds or the H mantles like the partition. I’m not likely to jump to the monolithic designs as anything thing I shoot at probably won’t be past 300 yards even on my farm where i could have a shot past 400 yards across a soybean field. That’s too far for me in my somewhat advanced age and diminished capabilities. I have lots of lead based bullets to load in various cartridges on my bench. I do have a couple of boxes of the Barnes 130 grain 270 Vortex red tipped TSX factory loads. I’m saving those for if my health improves enough and I have to go to the communist block state of California to hunt where the non lead option is the only option.
I used to be a weatherby fan, I like the vanguard rifles and I still own a 300 wby but I will say that there not really that splendid in todays market, they are not efficient at all and they don’t actually gain a person much more over standard chamberings in like calibers. I can actually say the 300 wby versus a 300 wsm the weatherby falls behind it, the short mag actually can perform with higher velocity in a shorter barrel in a shorter cartridge and more efficient cartridge. Using less powder which matters if your a hand loader, I figured out with a certain load the difference of powder between the 300 wsm and the weatherby to accomplish same velocities was 17 cartridges more I’d save in powder for the 300 wsm over the weatherby. That’s nearly a box of ammo more of shooting. That’s a lot to me, ammo is cheaper for the wsm over the weatherby and I’d say the standard 300 win mag is too matter of fact I know it is. I still like the weatherby but it’s probably the only weatherby cartridge I like and it’s not even the best
Regarding the question asked by one of your viewers on BC, SD, and ES and what they mean, I wanted to add two cents. His question is confusing, because in context, he asked both about extreme spread - which is a statistic - and ballistic coefficient - which is an attribute of the bullet related to its physics. Thus, in context, when he asks about SD, you can't tell if he's referring to SD meaning standard deviation, a statistic, or SD meaning sectional density, which is an attribute of the bullet related to its physics (mass and diameter).
You answered the latter, which is calculated by taking the bullet weight in grains/7000 - i.e. the bullet's weight in pounds - divided by the diameter of the bullet (along its axis of travel) measured in inches, squared. That gives you the initial sectional density, which is a predictor of the potential penetration capability of the bullet compared to other bullets of the same shape. There is also the terminal sectional density, which is more complex, because it takes into account the weight and cross-sectional area of the bullet after it has come to a stop in the animal. Both the weight and the cross-sectional area may be different from the initial SD, if the bullet has shed weight after expanding and losing lead (mass), and increased its frontal area by virtue of that expansion. Obviously, an exposed lead hollow point is much more likely to have a lower terminal sectional density than, for example, a fully-jacketed military round. So the terminal sectional density, which would be measured after recovery from an animal, is a bullet characteristic that is important to know when hunting animals, for example, that require deep penetration to reach the vitals.
As for the former - Standard Deviation - it is a statistic widely used in science, etc. for its robustness, and may be greatly affected by extreme spread. It is a statistic calculated based on the dispersion of many bullets shot at a target from an arbitrary point on that target, chosen, typically, at or near the center of the group. Its value is that SD is a commonly used statistic when assessing the consistency of a population based on a sample - i.e. how accurate a rifle shooting that particular load is likely to be, based on the behavior of a sample of, say 5 or 10 rounds of that ammunition fired at a target and measured.
For example: let's assume that you fire 5 shots at the x ring and then measure the distance from the center of the x to the center of each bullet hole. You would add up the distances and divide by 5; that gives you the Mean distance. You would then take each distance and subtract the mean from it, to get 5 numbers that represent the difference from the mean - positive or negative. Now comes the math: square each of those numbers. Then add the squares together. Divide the result by 5 - that gives you the average (squared) deviation from the mean. Finally, take the square root of that number. That's the Standard Deviation. Aren't you glad you asked? Oh - that's right; you didn't ask.
Or - just plug the numbers into a standard deviation calculator on the Internet. Yeah, that's it - I like that idea better. What it tells you, however, is useful; if the standard deviation is large, since you can actually estimate, for a large number of shots, how many are likely to fall within that deviation from the mean - i.e. the accuracy of the round - you can compare it with another round with a smaller standard deviation and how many shots are likely to fall within its deviation from the mean - assuming a normal distribution of shots. The result will have a pretty robust and standardized, reliable meaning. Yes, it's a very picky and scientific measure, but it is also very systematic - which is why it is used in scientific research as a measure of the quality of observations, or the consistency of some factor being observed in nature.
Anyway, SD can have two meanings, so I just thought I'd chime in to make sure both are covered. I figure if I had to suffer through this stuff in statistics class, I'd share the pain with your audience. I hope this contributes to your video, and doesn't scare viewers away. As always, thanks for the video - very informative.
Mr spomer What's your thoughts on a 303 brittish for hunting moose, i inherited a lee enfield no 4 mk 2, what grain bullet should I choose if it's even viable as a good hunting gun
I have no idea what Mr. Spomer will say, but, as an Enfield àfficionado (I own 5 Lee Enfields of various models and 3 P-13s). My first rifle was a Lee Enfield Cavalry Carbine. Built in 1898 and the twist rate wants a 215gn bullet (nearly impossible to find today, so I cast my own). Shooting a 180 gn off-the-shelf cartridges, ALWAYS scored on animals. Knocked der down, moose fall down anyway.. My No 4's shoot 150s, 174s, or 180s. If you don't handload, you'll mostly be stuck buying 180s. A 180gn bullet from a No 4 leaves the barrel at about 2400 fps. That'll take ANYTHING out to 200yds. Moose, deer, black bear ... basically ANYTHING Eastern North America makes. Those rifles and 174gn bullets have been doing this in Canada for over a century, even polar bears in the North.
JMHO, they do fine on moose.
@teddahrable thanks man, I have a buddy that gave me a lee loader, but never tried doing any of my own hand loading I have a box of 180s maybe just best to sight it with that, thanks for you input bud
I didn't have great success when I first tried to handload with a LeeLoader. No experience. That was fixed by a mentor. I have a Lee Loader for EVERY cartridge I own, it's a great tool.
You have a great resource I didn't have. Watch some videos, learn about handloading. I have tons of reloading equipment now. I love reloading. Enjoy shooting, enjoy hunting.
6.5 Grendel beats the 3030 I believe.
SD is for standard deviation also
Right. Also South Dakota, San Diego...
I guess it would depend on where you live, I live in wood country where anything over a 100 yds while not unheard of are not the norms. So i used 120 gr hand loads, down at min velocity. But I think 140 gr at a midrange load would have been better. But in open country push it. Just my opinion.
762x39 if you reload can use 150 gr. slugs & even heavier .
PHs RAVED abpout the 7mm Mauser for elephants...so there is that. Reloading? WIth apologies to the immortal words of Mr Checkers "Comon baby...let's talk about twist...wop wop
I don't know that many PHs raved a out 7x57 Mauser for elephant, but at least one commercial ivory hunter, W.D.M. "Karamojo" Bell, did. He used a 275 Rigby "magazine rifle" (bolt-action) to collect 800 pachyderms. The rest of his 1,100 or so total elephant were collected with various other cartridges.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors well Ron, I can't recall what book it was but it was on my early teens so more that 50 years ago.
30-30 can toss heavier slugs, and is a good gun, but I find accuracy is better at 300 plus yards by quite a bit.
131 hammer hunters shoot amazing for me in 7mm-08
Unless, of course, you handload. Loading a 150gn bullet in a 7.62x39mm turns it into a superior cartridge. I have shot dozens of Alberta Whitetail deer with a Remington 799 chambered in 762x39mm. Of course, i would not use it on a moose, and it won't compare if you use a 170gn in the 30-30, but it is a very viable deer and hog round.
If i remember right, the formula for sectional density sonehow involves the square of the bullet diameter. Not sure if the bullet weight has to be converted to decimal of a piund or not (dive grain weight by 7000). But I don't know the whole formula. Anybody out there know it?
I love my 25-06 i think it would work good on elk hit it in the lungs are heart liver would work.
Is there a reason why no lions in Texas ? There should be lions in Texas . Ron you should push this Idea. Thanks
😹😹😹 Ron’s on it!!
We do have mountain lions, aka cougars in Texas.
Most all varmit hunters on the 1000 yard club use 140 s A lot of bullet for chucks and p dogs but it’s the distance
The gap between 35 Whelen and the 358 Win seems to be a fair bit more than the difference between the 30-06 and 308.
Load data on the Hodgdon site shows the Whelen pushing 180 grain bullets in the 2,800-2,900 fps range, where the 358 is around 2,500-2,600. Moving up to 225 grain bullets, the Whelen is around 2,500-2,600 and the Winchester has dropped down to 2,300-2,400. Consistently a 200 to 300 fps gain.
Not that it's important, but for posterity's sake: I can find 3 factory loads online today. Winchester 200 grain power points, Whelen at 2,800 and the 358 at 2,490 (310 fps difference.) Two different 225 grain loads from Buffalo Bore, Whelen at 2,800 and Win at 2,500 (300fps difference.)
I absolutely love my 35 Whelen AI. 180gr TTSX @ 3075 fps for deer and 254 Power Hammer @ 2700 fps for large or dangerous game are absolutely incredible. I could never imagine being satisfied with the paltry ballistics of the 358
Loads for 35 Whelen vs 358 Winchester vary considerably from manual to manual for the different bullet weights. Usually the Nosler loads are considerably faster than Hornady. I have both rifles. I think the 200 grain is usually about the heaviest top weight in the 358 because of case capacity. Usually those are about 2500 fps whereas the 35 Whelen will push the 250 grain bullets to 2500 fps or higher and the 200 -225 weights up to close to 2700 or maybe even 2800 depending on powder. The same sort of things can be said for factory loads. The old Remington Core-Lokt loads, notorious for not making their advertised velocities, can hardly get out of their own way. They’re still good for whitetails and elk, moose or caribou at moderate ranges. I don’t know of any really hot factory 358 Winchester loads, but the hottest factory 35 Whelen load that I’m familiar with is the Hornady 200 grain Superformance with advertised 2910 fps out of a 24” barrel. That matches the 358 Norma Magnum with the same bullet weight. On both ends of the rifle!
Love the Whelen. Hard to go wrong for anything in the lower 48 and just about everything in AK. James Howe got it right
WHICH IS BEST FOR SAFARI HUNTING, IM THINKING 458 NITRO, 458 WIN MAG, OR 375 H AND H.
Well Ron as I've watched a a lot of your videos and it seems that bc plays a large roll in your opinions on ballistics even when your talking a 200 yard cartridge bc can be important though as you have said it's more critical in long range but the bc and the ability to shoot longer than 300 yards is different 7 prc 6.5 Creedmoor and even 7mm rem mag all have high bc at a 100 or even 250 yards with equivalent bullets the difference is minimal and a deer bear or elk won't k ow the difference it's not just you but many guys are hu g up on ballistics at long range when most shots are well inside the range that the bc will benefit you on an animal
You're right, curtis, but since one never knows at what distance a shot opportunity might arise, why not choose a bullet with the higher B.C., all else being equal? Same philosophy applies to choosing a 308 Win instead of 30-30 Win. Both work at 50 yards, but 308 better at 250.
@RonSpomerOutdoors that is true though the we know what game and terrains we will be hunting in and our maximum abilities which the rifle far superior to ours there for not making a high bc bullet the best because it has better flight not better terminal ballistics
Can we get to the point of this podcast 7mm08 ?
You missed the mark Ron, he wanted to know about standard deviation, not sectional density.
The 7x57 also used against our troops, does that disqualify it? Or only the hater of the time like now the Chinese and Russians?
My uncle once took an African safari hunt several years ago, he shot all his animals with a .270 win. Catch is, his (handloaded) ammo disappeared in transit and he had to buy factory rounds while there to hunt. And, the only .270 ammo he could find there were PMC brand, typical cup and core soft points. He still killed all the animals he had planned, even with only using that ammo.
RON GREAT SHOWS... DO AFRICAN SAFARIS TAKE WHEELCHAIR PEOPLE AND WHO DOES.
30/30 over 200 metres are very ordinary.
Timestamps please! You used to have them.
Hmm, this is why most (if not all) use of abbreviation sucks monkey-balls. It WILL cause confusion down the line.
The affordable hunting rifles are so crappie regardless of the caliber
If you want to use copper, then it will be your mortgage to buy them, so it's ridiculous to me. aim small good hunting GOD bless.
I just went to copper on my 30.6 and my 708, the cost difference is actually cheaper than the bolts I was shooting before, the bullets I was shooting before was a nozzler partition. But I feel that in my lifetime being at 58 years old living in Pennsylvania that some point they're going to eliminate the use of lead, for hunting. So I wanted to try copper so I tried to Barnes TTSX
@leskrug9266 Yes, you're very right. Some bullets like the bonded ones are really expensive as well, and I also approach 60 - and they have come a long way over the years with the copper bullets and they will also get the job done, GOD BLESS .