The fact that even Goldmask, one of the greatest Golden Order scholars ever, didn't know Marika and Radagon were the same person suggests that their true nature is not exactly common knowledge, probably even top-secret information. So I'd bet all my great runes that Gideon saw Radagon's "struggle unto eternity" decree, honestly believed it came from Marika and thought he was doing the right thing in trying to stop us. Not that Gideon didn't deserve to get punched in the face, but it's one fight that could have been avoided if only he was as all-knowing as he saw himself.
Good point! Though now that you mention it, it is a bit odd that you can't tell Gideon that Radagon is Marika, since that's such a huge bit of lore. Not sure if that's a developer oversight or intentional on FromSoft's part.
I think Gideon could actually agree with Marika's wish, that the Tarnished continue to suffer. Because if he let you become Elden Lord, then the struggling would stop. By fighting you, the struggle continues.
@@garrulousgoldmaskprobably because the game is a soulslike at its heart and not an rpg. There are a lot of boss battles in this game that feel narratively contrived as they could easily be solved with talking. Think rennala or malenia. But that kind of player freedom would also lead to players skipping main story or otherwise important boss fights, and souls-likes focus more on the combat than the roleplaying
Actually kindof incredible that the game can position Radagon as the last boss of the game - you know, the spot typically reserved for the main antagonist - and yet the fandom is still divided on whether he is the villain of the story.
Yeah! It was that realization (coupled with the fact that FromSoft has already followed that trope with Gwyn and the Soul of Cinder) that drove me to make the video.
But the real final boss isn't radagon but the elden beast. The elden beast is a servant of the greater will. Hence the greater will could be said to be the antagonist.
@@dusty_plant which is how FromSoft causes doubt and confusion by upending everything we thought we knew right at the end - the foreshadowing to that moment being sparse to non-existent. But also this fight is the one setpiece that every player who reaches the end is guaranteed to have the last thing they do before finishing the game. It is the one last chance to tie everything together. The story makes perfect sense if it is assumed that rather than raising more questions, the appearance of the Elden Beast is actually a solution - it's a key that can be used to work backwards and re-interpret everything that came before. Assume that Radagon is so much a puppet of the Elden Beast that there is *functionally no difference between them*. Radagon is Marika is the Elden Beast is the Elden Ring. Different faces, same entity. The sacred relic sword splits into two winding strands but it's all one sword - Marika and Radagon may appear separate but they are both offshoots of the same source and are being wielded as tools of the Beast. And regarding the Elden Beast being a vassal of the Greater Will - the two fingers were also said to be its vassals and they have been abandoned. It isn't really helpful to interpreting what's going on by shifting the blame to the "Greater Will" when for all we know the Elden Beast has long gone rogue.
To be fair, there are plenty of characters that we (logically speaking) have no business fighting. For example why would a confessor be slaughtering the inhabitants of Leyndel ? Why would a wizard be raiding Rya Lucaria and slaughtering other wizards ? Why does Morgot want us dead when we're trying to reestablish his golden order ? Answer is it's a video game and our objective is to kill baddies and earn points. Nothing deeper about it.
@@airyonbeck379 You can believe there is nothing deeper to the story, if you are satisfied with that interpretation. I like to look for patterns. Who is the metaphorical cuckoo, who weaseled into Raya Lucaria and swayed the loyalty of the Knights and Sorcerers of the Cuckoo? Radagon. Who is the high priest of Leyndell, striving for alchemical perfection and ordering the Confessors to assassinate anyone who points out the flaw in his plans? Radagon. The player Tarnished may have originated from one of these groups, but the reason that they are Tarnished is because they at some point in the past became disillusioned and driven away. No matter what background you choose, your player character is no longer part of the "in group" and is now a free agent. Are you certain that your purpose is to restore the Golden Order - that the ones who said so were unbiased in giving you this purpose?
@@garrulousgoldmask Frankly how there are people in The Lands Between who have actual children considering the whole Erdtree births thing is a little strange. Unless they were simply born outside of TLB, probably like some Tarnished. Rya does say she was supposedly "born by the grace of a king", so having grace might also mean having the ability to have a Golden Order sanctioned "birth".
@@poolcu3 the elden ring is located in Marika's womb. It's all but confirmed that what makes a God is it's ability to birth children through "traditional" means. IIRC all tarnished are from outside the land betweens... This explains why all known empyreans were or are "female" except for Miquella but there's Saint-Trina to make up for that. I still don't understand why/how Renalla's children are considered demi-gods if they werent birthed by Marika but to date it's my favourite theory.
Yes! I actually had that realization after editing the video. That would explain the red hair for some of the Misbegotten, the fact that they're called Radagon's children in the game files, plus they're literally called "Misbegotten."
I'm starting to believe that too, radagon was using the rune of the unborn to try to be reborn apart from marika, but ultimately created imperfect vessels in the misbegotten
interesting theory, Radagon has some conection to the misbegotten (even trusting one with his sword) Tho i think the misbegotten were a people present before the golden orders age that were favored by Radagon, Then when Radagon was chosen to combine with Marika to fix the greater wills "broken" host, the misbegotten lost their protector & bacame mistreated under the golden order, (valid view tho)
I believe that Radagon doesn't at all act of his own will, even during the fight, he looks like he's literally being puppeted. I believe that the true antagonist is the greater will and it's laws of causality and regression. To me the most statisfying reading of the story is that Radagon at some point was split off from Marika and has since strived to fix everything (he helped create the church of vows, he was the one character who has pieces of lore of him interacting with his child and in the end he's even the one who tried to fix the elden ring). However throught the law of regression he ended up a part of Marika and regressed into being an automaton for the greater will
@@nouhorni3229 no because i'm trying to enjoy a masterpiece but them i see monkeys throwing crap into it, don't you fees sad for miyazaki putting so much work just to have someone deliberately misinterpret the lore in favor of a fanfic?
What a fascinating idea! Never thought about the removal of the Rune of rebirth as a factor in the twins’ birth defects. Very astute observation. Subscribed!
The main antagonist is the Elden Beast, or Golden Order or Elden Ring. Marika shattered the Elden Ring to stop the beast (also that's why the beast has a wound before our fight). But it wasn't enough. Radagon is simply a puppet, a persona that is used to replace Marika. It's also why Radagon is called "of the Golden Order". Marika did all of this to defeat the Elden Beast, she gave us Melina to burn the tree and lead us to destined death, which is how we can defeat a God. It's also why the fingers didn't have any knowledge of the incident. Because their "boss" betrayed them. Radagon isn't the antagonist, which is why we get nothing by killing him. Our enemy is the Golden Order itself.
Gonna have to disagree here considering the fact that Marika created the Golden Order by removing the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring (Source: Mending Rune of the Death-Prince).
I so completely disagree with this, the golden order is one of the few good things in that world. The problem was Marika, she was arrogant and sought to amend the order of the world by lifting Death away, then when it crumbled she attack the order itself that trusted her with the highest position imaginable, a position she failed. Marika, he had to basically kill herself so that he could attempt to fix her own mistake but they was late.
@@Insert_Hereyour refutation is wrong. Marika did make the golden order under blind faith in the greater will, but marika outright says that later on she started to question her faith. She didn’t blindly believe in the greater will anymore, and she was going to investigate the greater will. After that she shatters the elden ring to thwart the elden beast, and gets locked up by the elden beast. Even tho marika made the golden order she renounced her faith and sought to destroy it later. That’s why she left us Melina.
@@trnrred489 I suppose you’re right since we unleash the Rune of Death, destroying the Golden Order. Unfortunately for Marika, the Tarnished ends up serving the Greater Will (Elden Lord endings), she ends up dead (Frenzied Flame ending), or her entire empire falls and gets replaced by a moon. She still loses in the end.
Here’s a theory: Radagon and Marika aren’t the same person, but instead Radagon uses mimicry to look like her. Radagon caused the shattering and the death of Godwyn, and he usurped Marika. All of it was his plan to become a god, he doesn’t even try to fully repair the golden order, he keeps it stagnant so that he can maintain his control.
I really don't see Radagon as a bad person for a single reason. "Why?" He has no reason to do anything bad, but did. I always thought of him as a creation of Marika only to assist her, and the Golden Order, much like Maliketh, and Blaidd.
That's a good comparison between Radagon and the Shadows of the Empyrean! I also don't think Radagon is evil or malicious (especially when compared to someone like the Dung Eater), which is why I made sure to call Radagon the "antagonist," as opposed to "villain."
He seeks perfection and wholeness imo. He strives to redefine and perfect the golden order, takes blemishes such his red hair very personally etc. He just wants to strive to a perfect golden order, one the marika helped shatter
@@garrulousgoldmaska thing that i want specify is that meanwhile radagon is a loyal follower of the golden order he is far more close to goldmask than a fanatic in fact both seek perfection in the order and are not afraid to do things eretic to the order in the end the spells of caria was considered as eretic or wrong to the order but he not only married and loved the queen of caria but also learned this spells and in the final we are fighting not radagon but radagon of the golden order because radagon would have been able to use sorceries and spell but he didn't because probably we are not fighting radagon but the elden ring that take control of the body of radagon using him as a puppet and this explain why he only utilise the sacred spells
@@massimilianoreali4398This is also supported by the fact that while Goldmask probably saw the degeneration of the golden order himself, the said degeneration most likely came well after Radagon's time. Goldmask is a golden order scholar, not a student or such of Radagon, meaning a religious historian, instead of a follower of the current authority in the religion. So this degeneration that Goldmask saw was less likely to be the result of Radagon, but rather the result of the absence of him and his.
Yeah! I could definitely see that spoken echo coming from Radagon, since it's about searching the depths of the Golden Order and has the Golden Order seal nearby, which boosts Golden Order Incantations.
For a while now I've subscribed to the theory that the whole reason the Shattering happened was basically because Marika was rebelling against the Greater Will. Based on some of Marika's words repeated to us by Melina and other factors, I think Marika was starting to lose faith in the Golden Order and realized she'd turned the Lands Between into a living nightmare thanks to the stagnation invoked by the Elden Ring and by her own removal of the Rune of Death, preventing anyone from escaping even through death. I think she had a hand in orchestrating the Night of the Black Knives too. I don't think she sat down with Ranni and helped her planned it but rather found out that Ranni was planning something so she "accidentally" left clues and tools behind for her to find and use, so to speak. She then shattered the Elden Ring and was sealed away by Radagon and the Greater Will as punishment but despite her confinement, it was actually Marika who started summoning the Tarnished back in the hopes that someone would find a way to free her and the Lands Between, best embodied by the Age of Stars ending. As for the Two Fingers, I think they're operating on very outdated information. After we're shut out from the Erdtree from the thorns, they try to commune with the Greater Will to understand why, a process that'll take years to complete. If this is how they always commune with the Greater Will, maybe it's been ages since they've last talked to it and they're just assuming that everything is part of the Greater Will's plan and don't know for certain.
First of all, I highly doubt,for several reasons, that Radagon is acting of his own volition( if at all) in his current state. He is broken, unable to speak, and his movements are more reminiscent of that of an automaton. As such, we are fighting a shadow of him, and even the use of his signature Rune does not indicate much other than his hand in creating and mantaining it,willingly or not. Part of the reason why is my belief in his role in founding Fundamentalism, as well as bridging the gap between sorceries and incantations. I do not believe such a person would be so utterly opposed to change, though he would attempt to perserve the Elden Ring because...well,look what happened when he couldn't. By the same logic you state regarding Gideon's realisation, here is a quote often attributed to Marika: "I declare mine intent, to search the depths of the Golden Order. Through understanding of the proper way, our faith, our grace increased. Those blissful early days of blind belief are long past. My comrades; why must ye falter?" I, for one, do not believe she uttered those words for a second. " Comrades". " Our faith". "Our grace". " Blind belief". Woman, you are the god of this faith! The giver of that grace! What are you talking about? Blind belief in what? Yourself? No. No. It only makes sense if he said it, in the context of being a " mere champion". Secondly, I doubt he would sabotage his own children from birth, no matter the reason. The Rune Of The Unborn, if counted among the Runes spread during the Shattering,wouldve bonded with Rennala's amber egg, likely itself an unborn demigod to which said Rune belongs. The afflictions of the Twin Prodigies require no explanation; indeed, not even one concerning their parentage. Malenia's affliction has a rather obvious reason; she is the unwilling vassal of a cruel patron, the Outer God known as " Rot itself". Miquella's condition is related to his " sacramental, youthful" blood, and his body has only grown in size under Mohg's care,therefore indicating his patron to be the Formless Mother. It should be noted that, current, Mohg's goal is to simply awaken Miquella and make him respond to his advances, not to immediately produce children from his sleeping form. Miquella's own unresponsiveness may indicate resistance, ir even escape,from his mortal frame, in much the same way Ranni disposed of her own Empyrean flesh and the chains thereof. Only, he would have to escape through dreaming of some sort. Thirdly, you act as if I should trust Marika's intentions. Marika. The woman who threw two of her babies in the sewers. The woman who sent us on this chase in the first place. The one who threw her husband across the sea and pulled another one from his wife's bed. The one who might’ve helped kill her own supposedly favourite son. The one who shattered the Elden Ring. And most of all, Melina's mother. The one who sent her to burn. Burning the Erdtree was always part of the plan, you see. " The one who walks alongside flame shall one day meet the road of Destined Death." You think she sent her for no reason in particular? . You are telling me to trust that she wanted us to succeed?
Thank you! It also simplifies things since we know Radagon and Marika are in the same room for a long time and we don't have to account for when and where Maliketh is when that happened.
Our purpose in the game is to kill and replace the current Elden Lord, Radagon, not to fill an empty spot. At some point, Radagon decided he wanted to usurp Marika, and promote himself to God. That is why Marika says "you are not yet me, you are not yet God". She knows. That is why Radagon was trying to improve himself, amassing as much knowledge as possible, so that one day he can replace her. He even assembles his own army, the misbegotten, who try to conquer the Lands In Between in his name. We see them worshiping his statues, one is holding his sword, taking over castles in Limgrave and even attacking the Haligtree until their advance is halted by the two mages and Loretta.. That is why they are called "Radagon's children". They are his personal army. So, i totally agree that Radagon is the main antagonist. He is the one who sealed the entrance to the Erdtree. If not, we would not have to burn it. When Melina realizes that the entrance is sealed, she offers to sacrifice herself. She even says that from now on, what happens next is not part of her mother's plan, but her own choice. She did not expect to find the entrance sealed.
That's some great additional evidence! And I really do like that explanation for the Misbegotten. It also just occurred to me that they could be "misbegotten" because they may have been failed attempts at rebirthing Radagon. Though I don't think the Misbegotten in the Haligtree were an invading force; in the 1.0 description of the game, Loretta and some other Carians were actually sent by Radagon to help out Miquella ("Arbor Sentinel" set, which became the Loretta set). Of course that is cut content. So I think the Misbegotten may have been sent by Radagon to strengthen the Haligtree/keep up appearances to conceal his Rune of the Unborn sabotage. (There is also a Misbegotten guarding Redmane Castle, presumably to protect Radahn.) Alternatively, since the Haligtree was supposed to be a sanctuary of sorts, it's possible some Misbegotten made the journey to be "cured" of their ailments by Miquella. That could also explain why there are Scarlet Rot Crystalians there as well.
@@garrulousgoldmask it may also explain why Master Hewg is in chains. He is loyal to Marika, there is no doubt about that, but he is also a Misbegotten. When his chains are broken, he remains, proving his loyalty. He was placed there in chains however by Marika, because as a "Radagon's Child", she had to take some precautions, even for him. Hewg accepts that and doesn't protest, because he understands.
My theory is Radagon is a rebirthed Misbegotten. He bares the title of champion, and the only other champion we see in game is the Misbegotten that holds his sword. He has red hair, that only Giants and Misbegotten have in game. I think Marika rebirthed him than gave him the rune of rebirth. Which is why he had it to give to Rennala, who he trusted. We know from Bocs' quest that demi humans can be transformed with the rune of rebirth.
@@evilmac9623 this is a mistranslation. In the original Japanese texts, "champion" and "hero" are the same word [英雄]. > " *Hero's* Runes" > " *Hero's* Graves" > "After the First Defense of Leyndell, Kristoff earned the *hero's* honor of Erdtree Burial for the feat of capturing Godefroy the Grafted." - Ancient Dragon Knight Kristoff Ashes description > "The enchanted knights, anointed by the Lunar Queen, were *heroes* of the highest honors, but fell into disarray with the decline of the royal family." - Carian Knight Set description > "This incantation was used by *the champions* of the Erdtree in the First and the Second Liurnian Wars, during which the red-haired Radagon joined *the heroes'* ranks" - The Barrier of Gold description > "And then, those at the academy realized. That Rennala was no *champion,* after all." - Rennala's set description Based on the original, it's all the same [英雄].
I thought before Ranni would be considered the antagonist, ordering the knight of the long knives and the death of godwyn ultimately leading to Marika shattering the elden ring. But this also makes a lot of sense, good video!
Ranni did screw up a lot of things, but for the same reasons as Marika: to be free from the Golden Order, which is clearly flawed. I guess in that sense they share the same goals, and it's difficult to say who went about it the better way because the murder of Godwyn and also the shattering of the Elden Ring were both so devastating. Maybe even if nobody replaced Radagon as Elden Lord, Godwyn's deathroot might still have doomed the Erdtree and the Golden Order in the long run.
One thing to note, Marika wants the Tarnished to kill a God. That’s her will. Gideon considers that impossible and cannot believe it is possible. So if the requirement is impossible, that must mean the quest of the tarnished is impossible. Therefore we are to struggle endlessly in pursuit of it.
Impossible maybe for crappy weapons. But she talked the blacksmith in the hold to craft a god killing weapon. When your weapons reach max upgrades, it's now a god slayer. She thought it through.
@@garrulousgoldmaskmelina actually says that returning the rune of death to the lands between goes against her mother's plans I took that to mean that marika did want us to struggle for eternity
People think (and understandably so) that the twins Miquella and Melania, were born *afflicted* because of the implications of "incest", i.e. Radagon and Marika being the same person means they're theoretically genetically closer than a brother and sister. However, they have two different genetic origins, along with a different body type, and genitalia. Most people probably just accept that "somehow" they could have sex with each other... however, this is unlikely as most of us could agree that it's still not plausible even in this crazy Miyazaki/George R R Martin compilation of a world. In all likeliness, in order for them to have children with each other (since only one of them can "exist" at any given time) Radagon and Marika together, likely planned to use the Rune of Rebirth to create their children as it was the only way possible for them to "procreate". We know one does not need a partner while using this method, since Rennala keeps making unlimited children with it all by herself; and three at a time no less, based on datamining the graphics off the "egg". This would also explain why each child completely takes after only one parent; Miquella only resembling Marika, and Malenia only resembling Radagon; and why they have two separate afflictions unlike the ACTUAL twins of Morgott and Mohg who shared the same Omen "curse/blessing", although even they only have Godfrey's traits and nothing of Marika's that we can see, where as Godwyn seemed to only take after Marika from what we can tell. Point is, Godfrey and Marika can actually physically interact with each other, so the idea of them having children without the need of a Rune of Rebirth isn't hard to fathom. But I digress, chances are that Radagon and Marika used the Rune of Rebirth to create their children BEFORE Radagon divorced/left Rennala, giving her the Rune of Rebirth for -insert plausible reason here-, hence why Radagon was already aware of (and fully onboard with) the plan to become Queen Marika's King Consort, even though it was sudden/shocking news to Rennala who was never the same after that. It was because they'd reached that agreement ahead of time in their minds or however-the-hell they communicate with each other (maybe they leave little post-it notes written for each other on a refrigerator or something... I don't know, it's irrelevant.) Point is, this event also explains how both "twins" can become Empyreans, meeting the requirements of having no "mortal/non-god" parents, since each only has only a single parent that happens to be the same god sharing a body. This also explains how Ranni the Witch can be an Empyrean as well, despite her "full-blooded" siblings being mere-demigods; because she was "the test subject" so to speak. After having two natural children with Rennala, Radagon likely wanted to test the Rune of Rebirth (before fully committing to the "Operation: Figure-Out-How-To-Have-Kids-With-Myself" plan) while still with Rennala, in order to study the *resulting child* (Ranni) and see whether or not it was a worthy course of action he could undertake in the future once married to Marika. This theory shows how Ranni, Miquella, and Malenia can all be Empyreans while adhering to the lore and keeping to the timeline's order of events. Though as to where Melina fits in to all this, I don't know as it isn't relevant yet given what little we know about her as well as what we DEFINITELY know about her. One again, my point is that homie (Garrulous Goldmask) is right about the importance of the Rune of Rebirth. And it may indeed have been the key to the Queen/King Consort's plans. The parallels are already there; Marika having removed the Rune of Death and giving to the only person she trusted, her own Shadow, Maliketh to keep away from others; and Radagon having removed the Rune of Rebirth and giving it to Rennala (assuming he didn't create it himself since we know [due to the multiple endings] that Runes can be created via gestation (as in Fia's case) or discovery (as in Goldmask's case), or unspecified ownership (as in Dung Eater's case, via the translated Japanese text). This also sort of implies that Radagon may have actually really trusted Rennala after all the time they spent together married. But it still doesn't mean he held love for her in his heart, or that he held more love in his heart for her than he did for the Golden Order. And while I believe the Elden Beast also fits in to all this, it's not important enough to get into right now, less I end up writing a full blown thesis in novel format in the TH-cam comment section. But yeah, loved the video since it got me thinking about the lore from different angles even though I had assumed I'd hit all the dead ends. Much appreciated, homie.
Thank you so much for the kind words and for leaving such a detailed take! That's a very cogent explanation for how Radagon and Marika may have used the Rune of the Unborn! I do like how that explains how each of the twins is like one of the parents, and why Marika's previous set of twins actually had the same curse/blessing. Though to be honest, I think Radagon and Marika having children could be as simple as Radagon leaving a sample of his celestial dew, which Marika then takes into her Lordvessel. Compared to some of the origin stories found in other mythologies, that one is fairly tame and "rational" by comparison. And that is a good point about whether the two of them can even communicate with one another, or if they only know what the one is doing/did by their actions. Though to be honest, I'm not sure if GRRM or Miyazaki spent that much time on the mechanics of Radagon and Marika sharing a body. I definitely think the origin stories of Ranni and Melina are fascinating topics to explore. W/r/t Ranni, it's actually unclear if she even knew Radagon. By comparison, Ranni definitely had a close relationship with her mother, while we know that Rykard and Radahn admired their dad, as seen by their knight helms. As a further wrinkle, I'm also not sure if Ranni knew her own father had to die before she could usher in the Age of Stars. As for Melina, my current working theory is that she's a product of virgin birth by Marika, so that Marika could burn away the thorns Radagon had set up. It's intriguing that the main point of evidence for whether or not Radagon truly loved Rennala comes from the Golden Order Greatsword and its deliberately ambiguous wording (in the JPN, the description could be read as either Radagon having made the Greatsword in memory of her, or he just reforged the Moonlight Greatsword). Thanks again for watching!
I highly doubt this theory. It would imply thay no empyrean is born if not only from godly parents, which makes unexplicable why does the Vessel God even need an Elden Lord and why one should produce more than one candidates especially when they compete with each other such as Marika and the GEQ. if all could be furthered via parthenogenesis, all this would be convoluted and unnecessary.
Radagon isn't real. Radagon is not a separate person. Everything done by "Radagon" was done by Marika. The only separation between the Radagon and Marika is in the minds of those who have not seen through her deception.
This makes so much sense. It seemed weird that marika wanted to preserve her age but also let the tarnished make a new one. But it was radagon who wanted to preserve the age. This makes marika a little better.
and re: SmoughTown's Radagon video that brought me to this one, Marika shattered the elden ring (her and radagons shared body) once she saw the horror that Godwyn had become, unable to truly die due to her own golden order. She regretted what she had done, but radagon had flourished in her deathless age and had no desire for a new one.
@@DakkaSap I think it wasnt Godwyn death that lead her to shatter the elden ring actually, she already planned it because she is sick and tired of the great will, Godwyn only gives her another reason
Ranni doing her shit leads me to believe that being an empyrean isn't permanent when they have three empyrean successors to Marika, no? With that said, Ranni's desire to break away from the Greater Will's "will" led her to usher the night of the black knives in turn causing Marika to lose her shit and break the Elden Ring which Radagon was trying to fix. If you ask me, Radagon was already in a status quo of being in power though until Ranni decided she doesn't want to be a queen for the greater will. Additionally, unless Marika has a mercurial mindset, isn't it contradicting that Gideon "believes" that "Marika" wants the tarnished to struggle endlessly... meanwhile, a certain blacksmith inhabiting a certain hold that houses an exclusive group of people was beckoned by Marika to forge a weapon fit to slay a "GOD," not a demigod btw. All I'm saying is, Gideon may have understood the wrong thing, may not have even communicated with Marika or something. Also see: www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/comments/13yjker/queen_marika_has_high_hopes_for_us_that_we/
My thoughts on this matter of the rune of the unborn is: miquella and malenia are unable to succed marika god status due to their curses, miquella by the greater will and malenia by the goddess of rot, so the only one able to do it is ranni, but she don't want to and don't have her empirean flesh, so radagon give rennala the mission to "give birth" to a new empirean flesh for ranni.
I never thought about the possibility that the great rune of the unborn was actually supposed to be miquella's great rune, or that the absence of said rune is what caused the twins there affliction, an interesting idea I haven't heard anyone else bring up, excellent work, also radagon really trying to get on that top 10 worst anime dad's list
As some have already pointed out, during the events of the game, Radagon acts purely on behalf of Greater Will; he has no agenda of his own. In a nutshell, here's what happened. At some point in the past, Marika started doubting the Golden Order (one of Melina's monologues), shattered the Elden Ring, started scheming behind the back of the Greater Will, and tasked Hewg with creating a weapon that will be able to one day slay a God (guess which one). Greater Will punished her and locked her down. Then it tasked Radagon with restoring and preserving its Order. Radagon failed to restore the Elden Ring, but at least he managed to keep the entrance to the tree locked. When our Tarnished finally breaks through, Greater Will uses Radagon to drive us away. When Radagon fails, Greater Will deems him useless and transforms his body into a sword and tries to confront us directly. So, to summarize, Radagon is Greater Will's tool for preserving its order; this is his only goal and purpose. I actually kinda pity him.
big fan of your analysis, appreciate that this makes both logical plot sense and thematic sense for the story. the amount of genuine literary analysis within this game's fandom is really great to see 💛 also this video is so concise! which is always a good sign in a writer imo.
What i find even more interesting is that the twofingers neither communicate with the greater will nor with radagon. Could it be that they not even know that marika was the one shattering the ring? In that case i think radagon must have been the one cruzifying marika
One cannot discuss radagon/Marika without fully understanding Renalla. It’s my opinion that they truly DO love each other and that radagons conflict with Marika was kind of related to that. He was hounded back from liurnia away from his family and we already know that despite the two being one in the same, they have separate goals and ambitions. Maybe the Amber egg wasn’t the cuckoo but radagon was. Not to the full moon, but against the fickleness of the gods themselves. It makes sense considering all he wants is to improve and better the golden order. Marika does NOT.
The point about Gideon communing w radagon not marika actually makes a ton of sense considering it’s not marikas portrait he has in his room Also Gideon is a staunch fundamentalist He may be referring to radagon as marika because publicly marika is the god not radagon
Fascinating. I think this is a very convincing interpretation and it shows once again the incredible wealth of meaning that can be gleaned from the world of the epos that is Elden Ring. I think what helps is generally to see the lore woven in as a mythology and interpret it likewise: This means there's a lot of stories with their own histories, conflicting traditions and different ways to tell and read them. We cannot be sure that there is or is not one definitive truth at the center, but the stories tell many truths about life in the Lands Between.
I really like this theory! Its the first time that I heard someone connecting miquellas and malenias affliction to the rune kf the unborn being taken out of the elden ring.
This makes a lot of sense. Both Malenia's and Miquella's curses involve death, and being short-lived. Malenia dies and is reborn whenever she used the scarlet aeonia. And Miquella is constantly being reborn like the juvenile scholars. Which implies that he is dying each time, right?
I don't recall ever reading Miq being reborn, as that's a power seperate to the Amber Egg. I believe he's just forever young. Till the whole Haligtree experiment.
@@crowstakingoff It's definitely explained many times that it is not many items related to him tell that, his power is power of dreams and astral form's which is saint Trina.
really great video, I found you to late. I like the theory allot. My current working theory for the rune of the unborn is pretty simple and strait forward (maybe to strait forward). Radagon gives the amber egg, which is an unborn demi god to Rennala before Marikia is punished, as a way to save the child. The rune of the unborn materialises inside the egg, the same way the other great runes just materialises in their shard bearers bodies
Another nteresting point is that both Miquella and Malenia are afflicted with curses related to other Outer Gods besides the Greater Will. Them being the Mother of Blood and the Rot Goddess respectivelly. Maybe those entyties seeing a "gap" in the Greater Will's power took advantage of that to afflict them with curses.
Solid theory. I think the defects of Miquella and Melania could easily be attributed to both their incestuous creation _and_ the fact the rune of the unborn was removed from the golden order. Either would be adequate explanations and they don't necessarily contridict one another. Perhaps the incestuous nature of their birth wouldn't have resulted in such extreme negative side effects if it weren't in conjunction with the rune being gone.
Thank you so much! And that's very true. It's also possible that Radagon, ever the scholar, knew that their selfcest would create problems, which in turn would make it even easier to cover up his sabotage.
Never played or looked at anything Elden Ring related before this week, so it’s probably not my place to make theories, but here we go. Perhaps Miquela and Milenia were cursed with imbalances of the two Laws. Miquela is cursed with the Law of Regression. He cannot escape his roots, his childhood. His body constantly stagnates, without aging. Frozen in time. Melania is cursed with the Law of Causality. She cannot escape the inevitable progression of the aging of her body, as it unnaturally tumbles forwards in the slope of rot. Falling through time. Perhaps, like Mikalia and Radagon, the siblings were meant to be a single being. It could explain why they were so closed to one another. P.S. Sorry if I spelt the names wrong.
Lorehunting can always use fresh pairs of eyes! And I definitely think you're on to something! But I'd switch the Laws around, since you actually get the Incantation Law of Causality when you find Miquella. So I think that's a good indication he is linked to that principle in some way. And in that lens, he links together so much of the Lands Between in a "chain of relation." He was trying to revive/euthanize Godwyn with the Eclipse (and may have been thwarted by Radahn), studied the Golden Order under Radagon, then abandoned Fundamentalism to develop a tool that would ward away outer gods, but was kidnapped by Mohg. And according to Gideon, that kidnapping was the final trigger that compelled Marika to shatter the Elden Ring. As for Malenia, her body is constantly trying to regress her back to a primordial state of rot and decay; she is only alive thanks to the unalloyed gold and the sheer force of her will in resisting that regression. And it's funny you mention that idea: I've actually been working on my own theory that Miquella and Malenia may have been one child but split apart, mainly on the sheer number of similarities between Marika, Miquella, and alchemy.
@@garrulousgoldmask Thanks for the encouragement! I can’t play Elden Ring (don’t have a strong enough PC), but I’ve started with Dark Souls. That’s really interesting, though. You can definitely have multiple interpretations, of the mechanics of the different curses. Perhaps Miquella could have used the Incantation Law of Causality to attempt to balance out his Curse, rather than it being emblematic of the curse. Although that chain of causation is quite interesting to me. He seems the causative factor that leads to the death of the old age (whole Elden Ring) and the birth of the new one (shattered Elden Ring). The idea of primordial rot feels similar to the idea of the Primordial Chaos found in many religions. It seems counter to the tenets of the Greater Will, as afaik, it’s a god based on Civilised Order. Also, Chaos is often viewed as feminine (Tiamat, Gaea, Echidna, etc.), whereas Order is often viewed as masculine.
I totally understand about not wanting to upgrade your PC! Though if you're willing to step down from your position in the PC Master Race, I would highly recommend getting a console to play Elden Ring. That's a really interesting point about Miquella and the chain of causation. He definitely feels like he was supposed to be a bridge from Marika's age to a whole new era. That's further supported by all the Oracle Envoys in the Haligtree, who signal the arrival of a coming age. And I hadn't thought about linking Scarlet Rot to primordial chaos! There's definitely a connection there, since to me both feel like a form of entropy mythologized. And to further support your point, Malenia and her daughters/sisters/offshoots in the form of Millicent and the other Scarlet Valkyries are all women.
@@garrulousgoldmask I am reticent to spend for a console, tbh. The only ones I own are a DS (Lite and 3DS), Wii and Switch. Though it probably is due time for me to upgrade my PC anyways. Are the Oracle Envoys the old crones related to the Two Fingers? Did the Greater Will want the Elden Ring shattered? Are all of the Scarlet Valkyries inflicted by the rot? Millicent is, but judging by the name, it seems they’re related.
That's fair! The Oracle Envoys are the marshmallow guys who blow bubbles/wield golden vuvuzelas. (The Finger Readers are the old crones.) And I don't think the Greater Will wanted the Elden Ring shattered, though I don't think the GW is a sentient force per se. Yep!
Perfect, you solved the Twins. It makes sense. But yeah, the Veil it's actually merikas. Radegon emprisoned her in the tree. Pretended to be her while keeping her locked up to give birth. Maybe he was still mid experiment?
I rarely think anyone gets everything right or really even close to it but I do think that different people come up with some different bits and pieces that can make a lot of sense. Linking the GR of unborn with the Demi god children not being healthy is an interesting though I haven't made a connection with. I just wish timeline stuff in ER was a little more clear cut.
I’d go a step up and say the elden beast is the real Antagonistic. Marika was going against the GW and the EB. Maybe radagon and the Elden Beast don’t wanna be replaced. And that’s why enya and the fingers state that the GW has high hopes for us to become elden lord. Marika wishes it would all stay the same. EB and radagon don’t wanna be replaced. The GW wants anything but the current state.
This is 100% accurate in my eyes because the war started because it was a war of two families. Radagons old one and his new one. Including the fact he stole his second from another man. Then fused with her.
Adding onto this with Boc as if you choose to have him be reborn it doesn’t go very well since the great rune isn't in the egg anymore so it isn't that strange to assume without the rune future demigods would be well... imperfect
Marika is the true villain of the story. Banishing Godfrey and his men, casting away two of her children, separating Radagon from his family, and shattering the Elden Ring once the only son she loved died. Radagon tried to fix things by mending the Elden Ring, and I believe it is pretty likely that he was being puppeted by The Greater Will in the final fight.
Finally someone who tells it. Radagon was scheming all along. Radagon is to marika what Grey-Evil bu is to majin bu: her dark side, ejected and ibcarnated away. After radagon creation, marika is far less "fundamentalism", since radagon took that aspect. Along with being obsessed by perfection, since he sees himself as just another part of a whole, motivation why he seeks glintstone magic. Glintstone magic he will not use against us, probably because he does not have a catalyst, or because having the elden beas inside prevents the glintstone magic. Someone says that he is controlled by the beast, but he clearly uses its signature moves in the fight, as said by the hammer. He does not fight like a beast, or the elden beast. Also, there is a theory that we fight not the true elden beast, but a remembrance-spirit or her like the ancestor spirits, since she is at least physically died when she became the original elden ring (but not completely died as ranni refers "i dont want to be controlled by that thing", and she speaks about the ring/beast, not the fingers). About the rune of the unborne. It is the only rune taken away from the ring alongside the rune of dead. Like two opposite runes. This must have caused a glitch on the erdtree system of apirit reincarnations and rebirth. The erdtree is already a doomed system, since is based on the actual marika (human) elden ring, but is planted on the great root syatem that is the creation of the previous draconic elden ring, that managed the reincarnation and birth system of ancient dragons. This glitch caused or speeded up the process ij which the original roots are influencing the erdtree, mixing the "genees", and because of that more and more omens are being born, including mohg and morgott (i think this is the confirmation that puts godwyn as the first marika born). Also, probably black knife assassins are now connected to radagon, because they were connected to marika. Lastly, the red spear on marika gas nothing to do with radagon or the elden beast (elden beast crucifixion attack is totally golden). As stated by tarnishedarchaeologist, only maliketh is the one who did that, possibly asked by marika, to stop radagon interfering with her plans, and probably this is one motivation why maliketh has gone mad. The only thing is: why maliketh did not turn against marika? She even shattered the ring. Are the fingers ok with that, but against ranni will to succeed her? Or are the fingers worried that ranni could take the elden ring away from the planet, while marika just wanted to get rid of radagon and fundamentalism?
i mean i think its pretty obvious that Marika was the main person responsible for setting off the events of elden ring, and since Marika is Radagon then well yea u could say he's also the one responsible
I don't quite see things that way. Marika shattered the Elden Ring as a result of grief over the murder of her favorite child Godwyn and her disillusion with the Greater Will, while Radagon tried desperately, in vain, to piece it back together to stave off the calamity that was about to ensue as a result. Really, the one that should be held most accountable for the suffering of everyone in the Lands Between is Ranni as it was her scheming that set the entirety of the game's events in motion.
@@hewhoshallnotbenamed5168 I gotta say, having rad GRRM's Fire and Blood, I always treated these tid bots of information as "accounts", rather than the truth. Even the story trailer to the game isn't to be trusted because it shows this person hammering something outside of their body... More importantly, Radagon's body cracks as he's hammering, as though it's suggesting he's actually breaking rather than fixing... So ... Huh? I mean, I get it, it's thematic, it's taking place inside this person's head... But it didn't seem to me as though there was a struggle... Just despair on both of their ends.... And they're never in the same place together, not even in their head, like Clark Kent and Superman lol 🤣
Late comment, but a very great video! I'm just feeling a bit lost in regards to the motivations of all these characters, as so much of their actions are hard to explain since their motivations are so difficult to understand. Gwyn, Laurence, King Allant, and Genichiro have far easier motivations behind their actions, but Marika and Radagon just completely stump me. If Radagon is Marika, and likely shared similar goals at this time, then why would Marika banish Godfrey after Radagon marries Marika? Correct me if I'm mistaken, but your video seems to suggest that Radagon marrying Rennala and sabatoging her with the Great Rune of Unborn Demigods (is it really for unborn Demigods? I thought the Japanese text only references a single Demigod, not multiple?) was intentional on his part. If the two were the same at this time, then why would Marika conspire to have Radagon turn Rennala into a broken woman by giving her the Rune and then have Radagon return to Leyndell to become Elden Lord? His job of neutralizing the threat of the Carian royalty was complete when he married Rennala, and we know that the Golden Order is perfectly fine with adding new elements to their religion like with the Dragons. The house of Caria and the Erdtree were aligned and so there wouldn't have been a need to ruin Rennala further. And I think Godfrey's cut dialogue implied that his relationship with Marika was more loving rather than an act of convenience for the two of them. And wouldn't Marika know what might happen if she had the Unborn Demigod Rune removed? So why continue with the birth of MIquella and Malenia, assuming they were born after Ranni? Would Marika have even been someone who would want an Empyrean to replace her and her established Order? She is the one who had the Gloam Eyed Queen defeated in order to create a world free from Death, so why would she want to have 3 new Empyreans who could upset that order? The idea of Radagon being a power-hungry zealot doesn't really match what other item descriptions say of him. I've heard some theories say that Radagon's Great Rune is more of a support type of structure like what vines hang off of to grow, and his actions in trying to mend the Elden Ring support this idea of him wanting to uphold the status quo. I'm just wondering why he and Marika would have wanted the twins to be born, as Gideon's dialogue about Miquella and Marika's sorrow, and cut content imply that they were okay with the idea of Miquella's Haligtree replacing the Erdtree. Sorry if this comment is all over the place. I totally get the idea of Radagon removing the Great Rune of Unborn Demigods could have resulted in the twin's afflictions, but I'm still lost on the 'why' aspect. So much of this relies on the assumption that Marika was playing 6D-chess and masterminding things since way back when. It doesn't explain why Marika had banished Godfrey all of a sudden only to immediately choose Radagon as a replacement, nor does it explain why she felt so much despair after Godwyn's death which made her shatter the Elden Ring. I would love to hear your thoughts on Marika's motivations, and whether Radagon went along with them until she tried to shatter the Elden Ring.
Thank you for watching and for writing such an in-depth comment! For me, what really clicked in interpreting Marika and Radagon's actions was the idea that while they share a body, they have very different goals and objectives. So I see Marika sending Godfrey away as a fail-safe if her plans failed. As for what those plans were, I believe her goals were aimed at retiring from her duties as Empyrean (which weighed heavy on her, as described by her soreseal and scarseal). Presumably, if she found a worthy Empyrean to act as a new vessel, she could step down from her role. (Placidusax's fled god shows that the Lands Between have already swapped out gods before.) That would explain why she had multiple children (Mohg/Morgott, Godwyn and who knows how many other demigods, Miquella and Malenia) and why the Golden Order was so supportive of the Haligtree. Even without the cut content, Marika's Soreseal is found at the bottom of the Haligtree. And if Miquella's Haligtree was truly meant to usurp the Erdtree, Leyndell forces surely would have attacked, like they did against Rykard, but of course they didn't. We also know that Miquella was heavily involved with the Eclipse to either revive/euthanize Godwyn, who I assumed was supposed to be the Elden Lord for the next age. But when Miquella was kidnapped (not dead, but just vanished), that meant the Haligtree and any attempts with Godwyn were now doomed. And so, at that point Marika was truly driven to the brink and shattered the Elden Ring in an act of desperation. I'll most likely go deeper into Marika's motives deeper in its own video. But while Marika wanted a new age, Radagon doesn't want this age to end, more in a metaphysical, than a political, game of thrones sense. With the future Empyreans sabotaged, I don't think Radagon would have felt his status as Elden Lord was threatened until the Shattering. That could also explain why he had a good relationship with Miquella: He knew his son couldn't succeed in succeeding him. And to clarify, Radagon's sabotage was aimed at Marika; I don't think him giving the amber egg to Rennala was supposed to be a Trojan horse and ruin her. Personally, I think Radagon did always love Rennala and did not want to betray her, though the Golden Order Greatsword is deliberately ambiguous on that point in the Japanese. We also don't know about the mechanics of Radagon and Marika sharing a body so it's possible they could be unaware of what the other is up to.
@@garrulousgoldmask thank you for replying! I’m a bit confused about your comment about Miquella and Mohg. You seem to imply that Miquella was kidnapped by Mohg BEFORE Marika shattered the Elden Ring? I thought the correct order of events was that Godwyn dies -> Marika shatters the Elden Ring -> Demigods meet in Leyndell to discuss what happens next (according to that one stone sword monument) -> Demigods disagree on what to do next and the Shattering begins (since Godrick had to flee the Capital dressed as a woman and the Demigods had to rally their forces). Wouldn’t Morgott and Mohg still be in the sewers if Marika was still around? Otherwise how would they have been able to leave? I always assumed that Morgott and Mohg were able to leave the sewers because Marika was imprisoned in the Erdtree and they were able to receive their Great Runes. So they would all meet each other after Marika shatters the Elden Ring. Plus, the other Demigods aside from the Omen twins have thrones in the Throne Room, and Morgott calls them all traitors, so wouldn’t Mohg have kidnapped Miquella during the events of the Shattering instead of before? Miquella had to have gotten his Great Rune sometime during this period after Marika shatters the Elden Ring, and it couldn’t have been while he was asleep. I don’t know, maybe I’m just assuming the chronological series of events wrong.
Yep! At least, that's what Gideon tells us after you defeat Malenia. He says that he heard that "Miquella embedded himself in the Haligtree, but before he could finish, someone absconded with his infant form. Perhaps the Queen's sorrow was justified." Though that's an interesting point you bring up about re: the Thrones. It's also weird that Morgott called out Ranni as a traitor in that scene, when the Shattering absolutely happened after the Night of the Black Knives. The best I can think of is that the sovereign alliance had those thrones set up for those two in absentia, since Miquella is missing, not dead. And it's unclear if the Lands Between thinks Ranni is dead or missing. Her body is locked behind an incredibly elaborate divine tower, and according to Rogier, Ranni hadn't been seen since the Shattering. As for how Mohg could leave, he can disappear in a pool of blood, so that could explain how he escaped the sewers and how he snatched Miquella so easily. And to be honest, I haven't really spent that much time thinking about how the demigods got ahold of their Great Runes, though at the very least, there seems to be a kind of hereditary component involved.
I think Radagon gave the rune to rennala to prevent it from ever being reforged into the Elden ring. She would never part with it because it’s the last piece of radagon she has.
I always thought that marika was still greatest protagonist - I mean we can’t forget what her shattering the elden ring did - it destroyed the whole world order and plummeted every person into war. That’s the murder of millions. Radagon at least tried to fix it, and his attempts to keep the tarnished away are obviously doubt and hesitancy towards wether the tarnished would fix the world satisfactorily.
Wondering if Marika was ever loyal at all to the Greater Will or if she was always independent of it, just taking advantage of its blessings while it let her lol. I have so many questions branching off of this one yes or no question that I would get lost trying to type them all out.
1:55 That reminds me of Elden Ring's trailer, where Melina seems to be divining Marika's Echoes: "They will fight and they will die in an unending curse." That might have been actually Radagon's dying wish born of his fanaticism for the Golden Order, sealing the Erdtree in a desperate attempt to preserve what's left of the Order for eternity.
I think your spotting of why the rune of the unborn being why miquella and malenia were plagued with imperfections is brilliant. It makes a lot of sense given the timeline. It might also explain why Ranni was chosen to become an emperyan, despite not being born of Radagon and Marika.
I think radagon was always part of Queen Marika which might explain why he fancies Godfrey so much. I like to think that marika and Godfrey at some point maybe fell in love with each other which explains why radagon would look up to Godfrey this much. There’s also leaked files which tell us that Godfrey and marika follow a plan so they definitely spend a lot of time together so maybe love or at least a huge amount of respect was earned by Godfrey. Either way it’s hard to believe that marika would find someone better then Godfrey given the fact that they followed the same plan. I mean we know that marika and radagon are the same being now but what if they always were the same being and radagon is just a puppet controlled by marika? This would explain why he seems like one in the end fight. This also explains why miquella and malenia were basically disabled cause they came form the same being and as we know in our world sibling relationships don’t rlly end in normal children so you having a relationship with yourself is bound to be worse. This is why the two are cursed. I mean don’t get me wrong marika and Godfrey only became consorts because of political reason but don’t you guys think due to the leaked file that Godfrey knows awfully much about Marikas true intentions and plans? They at least are great friends if not more and radagon is and was always marika
Excellent theory, i was always confused why marika's actions seemed so contradictory, but it makes perfect sense if it was radagon who was foiling her at every turn. As to why he gave the rune of the unborn to rennala, perhaps he was attempting to be reborn apart from marika, leaving her imprisoned in the tree, but was never able to seperate from his other half.
Radagon as the spear piercing Marika’s womb, then dropping, hair turns from golden to red and the fight with Radagon ensues is an interesting highlight. End of the day. Its the same God with split personalities.
so instead of miquella being in the form of a larval tear or incomplete/mercurial, i thought of radagon as being this sort of mimic to marika. what led me to this was the cut quest for the silver tear asimi. asimi is a silver tear that becomes a part of the tarnished kinda hitching a ride similar to latenna however melina is even able to notice this extra presence when resting at a grace. she even greets them directly with *hello other you*. this makes me think of marikas line to radagon *thou art yet to become me, thou art yet to become a god*. in short marika created a mimic/silver tear, radagon, who married rennala but left her when marika had him return to the erdtree and they produced malenia and miquella. however since radagon left the rune with rennala the twins were incomplete. i get the feeling that ranni and miquella had the greatest potential with ranni being born first and marika saw this. radagon being the leal hound that he is yearning to be complete came back as he is marikas mimic. similar to the cut asimi quest however it appears the mimic can begin to have their own free will and desires even sabotaging or trying to eliminate who created them.
I believe that Marika is somehow cursed and it is something not known. Or there is a fault on the "twin birth" because not only Miquela and Malenia are afflicted but also Morgott and Mogh. Another thing that made me think was the spear in Marika. In the Evangelion anime the spear was also a sort of locking System to bound the "giants" which could have the same meaning with Marika to keep her contained - if she was punished for the shattering then someone had to be punisher. In theory Radagon could be that punisher that was her champion and was choose by the will to replace her as he was the spear that bounded her and also the sword for the Beast, along that Marika still was capable of using the grace to guide the tarnished in this "uprising" against the will. This could explain why the two fingers got confused about the last line of actions to be taken by the tarnished as the grace is being controlled by Marika but not the Greater Will. In fact I don't fully believe Rasagon being part of Marika at first as he much more alike the fire giants and this could even be a sort of revenge. It is most likely he tried to absorb Marika once she has been contained and both are partially degraded from the process. Unfortunately I think the DLC is our only hope have more answers and lots of new questions hahahahah
I love the souls community so much, this is such a kick ass theory and it goes through so many things I didn’t even think to look at a second time and it all makes sense. Shit if ur not on to something, I give up we’ll never get it
Marika is strung up and pierced through the belly because that's what the Elden Beast (aka the "phsyical manifestation" of the Greater Will in the mortal world) did to her. When the Elden Beast executes its grab attack on you, the same thing happens, but will lot's more light spears. So perhaps, because the Greater Will recognized that Radagon might still serve as a useful puppet, it only seriously maimed Marika, so as to allow Radagon to take over, but unbeknownst to him, he was just a slave. The symbology of the Elden Beast literally transforming Radagon's corpse into a sword points very strongly to this theory, as well: Radagon is merely a tool of the Great Will. Nothing more, and nothing less.
Awesome job with Radagon’s lore most just chalk it up to him and Marika being 2 beings in 1 host and Marika is the villain cause she destroyed the Elden ring and he’s the good guy for trying to repair it. But I never paid attention to the markings on the thorns until you mentioned it and it makes so much sense she’s just dangling in air like the one move the Elden Beast does to us then the red spear which weirdly looks like his hair is nowhere to be found inside the arena during or after the fight. I do recall another lore hunter suggesting that the spear belonged to the gloam eyed queen (which didn’t make sense) cause Maliketh killed her. But then you have Melina at the end promising you “destined death” and many say she’s the gloam eyed queen but I’m thinking she may be the GEQ’s daughter and not Marika’s. But that’s a different rabbit hole we won’t go down just yet. 😂 Thanks for sharing your POV with us I’m subscribed now 👍
It is interesting how one's views can differ from another's. You said Marika is the bad guy for breaking the ring, and Radagon the good guy for wanting to fix it. To me, it's the opposite. The golden order is evil, corrupt, controlling. Any attempts to destroy can only be a good thing to me, Marika is the hero.
The only possible way for Ranni to be an empyrean is if she does not has a drop of Rennala’s blood in her. And what was their sigil again? Oh, it’s a cuckoo. A bird known to put their children into the care of other birds to take care of.
On the subject of "Marika's will", another thing to consider is the name of the god she once served. It could be that what he actually saw was something of the nature of the Greater Will, which is basically an eldritch horror. I don't know if it was deliberate, but I find that all of the outer gods make a decent allegory for colonial powers, baselessly claiming their own wisdom and benevolence before exploiting and enslaving the people of the lands between in the hopes of harvesting the land to add to their own wealth and power. I also have a headcanon that harvesting the essence of the Lands Between would give enough power to create a new god, which various entities were interested in. The Greater Will wanted to use the Golden Order and the Erdtree to feed the power to its child the Elden Beast, the god of rot wanted to turn Malenia into a god using it, and Malenia held off on using the rot because if she used it three times and thus became a god, she would deprive Miquella of the same opportunity. I could be wrong, but what I suspect is that when she turned against the Golden Order, Marika trapped the Elden Beast inside Radagon and then used her own "punishment" of being bound inside the Erdtree. That said, I don't think he was a good person even before that, as his treatment of Rennala indicates either callous insincerity or else that he lacked the free will to make moral decisions, possibly because of the influence of the law of regression. As for the twins' afflictions, I would argue that the remembrance indicates that magic super incest was the reason they were afflicted, since it says they were "the children of a single god. As such they... suffered afflictions". You could read the second sentence as only attributing their empyrean status to their parentage, but I find the other reading more natural, and it would also make a certain degree of sense since, like purebred dogs, their incestuous parentage assured certain desirable traits but also worsened their overall health. Admittedly, I don't think item descriptions are meant to be 100% reliable so it's possible that even if that was what it was indicating it could still be false, or at least incomplete. You do have some interesting points though, and there is definitely a plausible argument that he tried to prevent any threats to himself, but I think that by the time he did so he was acting under the control of the Elden Beast and not out of personal selfishness.
Sounds like a solid theory! But in this case, what's the significance of the Elden Beast? Why does it try to stop us when we've taken down what was essentially stagnating the Golden Order?
Thank you! To me, the Elden Beast is an even more literal manifestation of the current version of the Golden Order and how it doesn't want to end. The Beast is fighting for its life: In 5 out of 6 endings, it's effectively replaced with a new Order, while the Frenzied Flame ending annihilates Order entirely. (That could also explain why it keeps running away so often!)
The golden order is evil, secretly managed by an outer god seeking souls and worship. That outer god is the Elden Beast, using the golden order to absorb souls and prayers. Marika learned this and shattered the ring as part of a plan to kill the Elden Beast. Radagon, either forcibly or by choice, let the Beast inhabit his body to use against anyone who comes in with intent to kill it. They planned to either have you die with all your great runes on your body and collect them, or you somehow get in and die to them and they get your great runes. Marika wanted Godfrey to be the Beast killer, bringing him back at the last second after you did all the work as a way of kill sniping it. And yes, she is actually the source of your grace guidance, not the Beast and Will. At least, this is my reading of events.
Souls is probably the only series where people have to make video essays theorizing that the final boss is actually the antagonist
Haha so true
I love the ones that ask if you're the real bad guy
@@alexf0723monster hunter comes to mind aswell lol
lmao
The fact that even Goldmask, one of the greatest Golden Order scholars ever, didn't know Marika and Radagon were the same person suggests that their true nature is not exactly common knowledge, probably even top-secret information. So I'd bet all my great runes that Gideon saw Radagon's "struggle unto eternity" decree, honestly believed it came from Marika and thought he was doing the right thing in trying to stop us. Not that Gideon didn't deserve to get punched in the face, but it's one fight that could have been avoided if only he was as all-knowing as he saw himself.
Good point! Though now that you mention it, it is a bit odd that you can't tell Gideon that Radagon is Marika, since that's such a huge bit of lore. Not sure if that's a developer oversight or intentional on FromSoft's part.
I think Gideon could actually agree with Marika's wish, that the Tarnished continue to suffer. Because if he let you become Elden Lord, then the struggling would stop. By fighting you, the struggle continues.
Could be something the greater will showed him, I mean, Radagon and Marika are not really conscious or alive during that fight.
@@garrulousgoldmaskprobably because the game is a soulslike at its heart and not an rpg. There are a lot of boss battles in this game that feel narratively contrived as they could easily be solved with talking. Think rennala or malenia. But that kind of player freedom would also lead to players skipping main story or otherwise important boss fights, and souls-likes focus more on the combat than the roleplaying
Gideon still deserved it. Justice for my albinuric homies!
Actually kindof incredible that the game can position Radagon as the last boss of the game - you know, the spot typically reserved for the main antagonist - and yet the fandom is still divided on whether he is the villain of the story.
Yeah! It was that realization (coupled with the fact that FromSoft has already followed that trope with Gwyn and the Soul of Cinder) that drove me to make the video.
But the real final boss isn't radagon but the elden beast. The elden beast is a servant of the greater will. Hence the greater will could be said to be the antagonist.
@@dusty_plant which is how FromSoft causes doubt and confusion by upending everything we thought we knew right at the end - the foreshadowing to that moment being sparse to non-existent. But also this fight is the one setpiece that every player who reaches the end is guaranteed to have the last thing they do before finishing the game. It is the one last chance to tie everything together. The story makes perfect sense if it is assumed that rather than raising more questions, the appearance of the Elden Beast is actually a solution - it's a key that can be used to work backwards and re-interpret everything that came before.
Assume that Radagon is so much a puppet of the Elden Beast that there is *functionally no difference between them*. Radagon is Marika is the Elden Beast is the Elden Ring. Different faces, same entity. The sacred relic sword splits into two winding strands but it's all one sword - Marika and Radagon may appear separate but they are both offshoots of the same source and are being wielded as tools of the Beast.
And regarding the Elden Beast being a vassal of the Greater Will - the two fingers were also said to be its vassals and they have been abandoned. It isn't really helpful to interpreting what's going on by shifting the blame to the "Greater Will" when for all we know the Elden Beast has long gone rogue.
To be fair, there are plenty of characters that we (logically speaking) have no business fighting. For example why would a confessor be slaughtering the inhabitants of Leyndel ? Why would a wizard be raiding Rya Lucaria and slaughtering other wizards ? Why does Morgot want us dead when we're trying to reestablish his golden order ?
Answer is it's a video game and our objective is to kill baddies and earn points. Nothing deeper about it.
@@airyonbeck379 You can believe there is nothing deeper to the story, if you are satisfied with that interpretation. I like to look for patterns.
Who is the metaphorical cuckoo, who weaseled into Raya Lucaria and swayed the loyalty of the Knights and Sorcerers of the Cuckoo? Radagon. Who is the high priest of Leyndell, striving for alchemical perfection and ordering the Confessors to assassinate anyone who points out the flaw in his plans? Radagon. The player Tarnished may have originated from one of these groups, but the reason that they are Tarnished is because they at some point in the past became disillusioned and driven away. No matter what background you choose, your player character is no longer part of the "in group" and is now a free agent.
Are you certain that your purpose is to restore the Golden Order - that the ones who said so were unbiased in giving you this purpose?
If you're looking for a better word to describe Radagon/Marika's birthing of Miquella and Malenia, "Parthenogenesis" is a good one.
That's a fair point! Though I think Radagon is too much of a Chad for virgin birth.
@@garrulousgoldmask Frankly how there are people in The Lands Between who have actual children considering the whole Erdtree births thing is a little strange. Unless they were simply born outside of TLB, probably like some Tarnished.
Rya does say she was supposedly "born by the grace of a king", so having grace might also mean having the ability to have a Golden Order sanctioned "birth".
@@poolcu3 the elden ring is located in Marika's womb. It's all but confirmed that what makes a God is it's ability to birth children through "traditional" means. IIRC all tarnished are from outside the land betweens... This explains why all known empyreans were or are "female" except for Miquella but there's Saint-Trina to make up for that. I still don't understand why/how Renalla's children are considered demi-gods if they werent birthed by Marika but to date it's my favourite theory.
No.
Radogon stuck her dick right in his marika strange.
And don't you forget that, tarnished.
Or the Big Wank.
Maybe Radagon did attempt a rebirth but the attempt ended up bringing the misbegotten into existence
Yes! I actually had that realization after editing the video. That would explain the red hair for some of the Misbegotten, the fact that they're called Radagon's children in the game files, plus they're literally called "Misbegotten."
I'm starting to believe that too, radagon was using the rune of the unborn to try to be reborn apart from marika, but ultimately created imperfect vessels in the misbegotten
interesting theory, Radagon has some conection to the misbegotten (even trusting one with his sword)
Tho i think the misbegotten were a people present before the golden orders age that were favored by Radagon,
Then when Radagon was chosen to combine with Marika to fix the greater wills "broken" host,
the misbegotten lost their protector & bacame mistreated under the golden order, (valid view tho)
I believe that Radagon doesn't at all act of his own will, even during the fight, he looks like he's literally being puppeted. I believe that the true antagonist is the greater will and it's laws of causality and regression. To me the most statisfying reading of the story is that Radagon at some point was split off from Marika and has since strived to fix everything (he helped create the church of vows, he was the one character who has pieces of lore of him interacting with his child and in the end he's even the one who tried to fix the elden ring). However throught the law of regression he ended up a part of Marika and regressed into being an automaton for the greater will
I believe so too, just like the discus of light emerging out of nowhere, travelling forward and then returning to nothing.
This is why Ranni Did what she did, right? She didn’t want to be a puppet to the greater will? She clearly didn’t want to share her father’s fate.
oh god not another ranni simp leave the greater will out of your fanfics
@@colorpg152you good?
@@nouhorni3229 no because i'm trying to enjoy a masterpiece but them i see monkeys throwing crap into it, don't you fees sad for miyazaki putting so much work just to have someone deliberately misinterpret the lore in favor of a fanfic?
What a fascinating idea! Never thought about the removal of the Rune of rebirth as a factor in the twins’ birth defects. Very astute observation. Subscribed!
The main antagonist is the Elden Beast, or Golden Order or Elden Ring. Marika shattered the Elden Ring to stop the beast (also that's why the beast has a wound before our fight). But it wasn't enough. Radagon is simply a puppet, a persona that is used to replace Marika. It's also why Radagon is called "of the Golden Order". Marika did all of this to defeat the Elden Beast, she gave us Melina to burn the tree and lead us to destined death, which is how we can defeat a God. It's also why the fingers didn't have any knowledge of the incident. Because their "boss" betrayed them. Radagon isn't the antagonist, which is why we get nothing by killing him. Our enemy is the Golden Order itself.
I completely agree with this.
Gonna have to disagree here considering the fact that Marika created the Golden Order by removing the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring (Source: Mending Rune of the Death-Prince).
I so completely disagree with this, the golden order is one of the few good things in that world. The problem was Marika, she was arrogant and sought to amend the order of the world by lifting Death away, then when it crumbled she attack the order itself that trusted her with the highest position imaginable, a position she failed. Marika, he had to basically kill herself so that he could attempt to fix her own mistake but they was late.
@@Insert_Hereyour refutation is wrong. Marika did make the golden order under blind faith in the greater will, but marika outright says that later on she started to question her faith. She didn’t blindly believe in the greater will anymore, and she was going to investigate the greater will.
After that she shatters the elden ring to thwart the elden beast, and gets locked up by the elden beast.
Even tho marika made the golden order she renounced her faith and sought to destroy it later. That’s why she left us Melina.
@@trnrred489 I suppose you’re right since we unleash the Rune of Death, destroying the Golden Order. Unfortunately for Marika, the Tarnished ends up serving the Greater Will (Elden Lord endings), she ends up dead (Frenzied Flame ending), or her entire empire falls and gets replaced by a moon. She still loses in the end.
Glad you’re back. Radagon/Marika are big goofies that screwed up everything and that is the whole plot in a nutshell.
Thank you!
So kinda like the plot of Dark Souls. And likely for the same reason.
Here’s a theory: Radagon and Marika aren’t the same person, but instead Radagon uses mimicry to look like her. Radagon caused the shattering and the death of Godwyn, and he usurped Marika. All of it was his plan to become a god, he doesn’t even try to fully repair the golden order, he keeps it stagnant so that he can maintain his control.
I really don't see Radagon as a bad person for a single reason. "Why?" He has no reason to do anything bad, but did. I always thought of him as a creation of Marika only to assist her, and the Golden Order, much like Maliketh, and Blaidd.
That's a good comparison between Radagon and the Shadows of the Empyrean! I also don't think Radagon is evil or malicious (especially when compared to someone like the Dung Eater), which is why I made sure to call Radagon the "antagonist," as opposed to "villain."
He seeks perfection and wholeness imo. He strives to redefine and perfect the golden order, takes blemishes such his red hair very personally etc. He just wants to strive to a perfect golden order, one the marika helped shatter
@@garrulousgoldmaska thing that i want specify is that meanwhile radagon is a loyal follower of the golden order he is far more close to goldmask than a fanatic in fact both seek perfection in the order and are not afraid to do things eretic to the order in the end the spells of caria was considered as eretic or wrong to the order but he not only married and loved the queen of caria but also learned this spells and in the final we are fighting not radagon but radagon of the golden order because radagon would have been able to use sorceries and spell but he didn't because probably we are not fighting radagon but the elden ring that take control of the body of radagon using him as a puppet and this explain why he only utilise the sacred spells
@@massimilianoreali4398This is also supported by the fact that while Goldmask probably saw the degeneration of the golden order himself, the said degeneration most likely came well after Radagon's time. Goldmask is a golden order scholar, not a student or such of Radagon, meaning a religious historian, instead of a follower of the current authority in the religion. So this degeneration that Goldmask saw was less likely to be the result of Radagon, but rather the result of the absence of him and his.
5:55 Did you seriously censor the “nig” in “knight” lmao.
the souls games are notorious for this censoring lol
Yeah it's a reference to name censors. Was a popular meme from DS2
2:54 Minor Erdtree Church dialouge also belongs to Radagon and wrongfully credited to Marika by Melina i think.
Yeah! I could definitely see that spoken echo coming from Radagon, since it's about searching the depths of the Golden Order and has the Golden Order seal nearby, which boosts Golden Order Incantations.
Church of pilgrimage (spoken echo in which Marika exiles Godfrey has a Radagon Statue instead of Marika)+
@@syedasadali8529 that makes perfect sense
"got fingered by the frenzied flame" great video.
For a while now I've subscribed to the theory that the whole reason the Shattering happened was basically because Marika was rebelling against the Greater Will. Based on some of Marika's words repeated to us by Melina and other factors, I think Marika was starting to lose faith in the Golden Order and realized she'd turned the Lands Between into a living nightmare thanks to the stagnation invoked by the Elden Ring and by her own removal of the Rune of Death, preventing anyone from escaping even through death.
I think she had a hand in orchestrating the Night of the Black Knives too. I don't think she sat down with Ranni and helped her planned it but rather found out that Ranni was planning something so she "accidentally" left clues and tools behind for her to find and use, so to speak. She then shattered the Elden Ring and was sealed away by Radagon and the Greater Will as punishment but despite her confinement, it was actually Marika who started summoning the Tarnished back in the hopes that someone would find a way to free her and the Lands Between, best embodied by the Age of Stars ending.
As for the Two Fingers, I think they're operating on very outdated information. After we're shut out from the Erdtree from the thorns, they try to commune with the Greater Will to understand why, a process that'll take years to complete. If this is how they always commune with the Greater Will, maybe it's been ages since they've last talked to it and they're just assuming that everything is part of the Greater Will's plan and don't know for certain.
Marika's name can mean "mischievous woman"...
@@cwill14 So?
First of all, I highly doubt,for several reasons, that Radagon is acting of his own volition( if at all) in his current state. He is broken, unable to speak, and his movements are more reminiscent of that of an automaton. As such, we are fighting a shadow of him, and even the use of his signature Rune does not indicate much other than his hand in creating and mantaining it,willingly or not.
Part of the reason why is my belief in his role in founding Fundamentalism, as well as bridging the gap between sorceries and incantations. I do not believe such a person would be so utterly opposed to change, though he would attempt to perserve the Elden Ring because...well,look what happened when he couldn't.
By the same logic you state regarding Gideon's realisation, here is a quote often attributed to Marika:
"I declare mine intent, to search the depths of the Golden Order. Through understanding of the proper way, our faith, our grace increased. Those blissful early days of blind belief are long past. My comrades; why must ye falter?"
I, for one, do not believe she uttered those words for a second.
" Comrades". " Our faith". "Our grace". " Blind belief". Woman, you are the god of this faith! The giver of that grace! What are you talking about? Blind belief in what? Yourself?
No. No. It only makes sense if he said it, in the context of being a " mere champion".
Secondly, I doubt he would sabotage his own children from birth, no matter the reason. The Rune Of The Unborn, if counted among the Runes spread during the Shattering,wouldve bonded with Rennala's amber egg, likely itself an unborn demigod to which said Rune belongs.
The afflictions of the Twin Prodigies require no explanation; indeed, not even one concerning their parentage. Malenia's affliction has a rather obvious reason; she is the unwilling vassal of a cruel patron, the Outer God known as " Rot itself". Miquella's condition is related to his " sacramental, youthful" blood, and his body has only grown in size under Mohg's care,therefore indicating his patron to be the Formless Mother. It should be noted that, current, Mohg's goal is to simply awaken Miquella and make him respond to his advances, not to immediately produce children from his sleeping form. Miquella's own unresponsiveness may indicate resistance, ir even escape,from his mortal frame, in much the same way Ranni disposed of her own Empyrean flesh and the chains thereof. Only, he would have to escape through dreaming of some sort.
Thirdly, you act as if I should trust Marika's intentions. Marika. The woman who threw two of her babies in the sewers. The woman who sent us on this chase in the first place. The one who threw her husband across the sea and pulled another one from his wife's bed. The one who might’ve helped kill her own supposedly favourite son. The one who shattered the Elden Ring. And most of all,
Melina's mother. The one who sent her to burn.
Burning the Erdtree was always part of the plan, you see.
" The one who walks alongside flame shall one day meet the road of Destined Death."
You think she sent her for no reason in particular?
. You are telling me to trust that she wanted us to succeed?
You are definitely on to something. I think Radagon being the red spear in Marika's womb is cooler than it being destined death put there by Maliketh.
All in all this is a very fromsoft-like way of looking at the world and these characters. Nice! Subbing
Thank you! It also simplifies things since we know Radagon and Marika are in the same room for a long time and we don't have to account for when and where Maliketh is when that happened.
Glad to have you on board!
@@garrulousgoldmask So glad to have found your channel. It's brilliant, goldmask!
Our purpose in the game is to kill and replace the current Elden Lord, Radagon, not to fill an empty spot. At some point, Radagon decided he wanted to usurp Marika, and promote himself to God. That is why Marika says "you are not yet me, you are not yet God". She knows. That is why Radagon was trying to improve himself, amassing as much knowledge as possible, so that one day he can replace her.
He even assembles his own army, the misbegotten, who try to conquer the Lands In Between in his name. We see them worshiping his statues, one is holding his sword, taking over castles in Limgrave and even attacking the Haligtree until their advance is halted by the two mages and Loretta.. That is why they are called "Radagon's children". They are his personal army.
So, i totally agree that Radagon is the main antagonist. He is the one who sealed the entrance to the Erdtree. If not, we would not have to burn it. When Melina realizes that the entrance is sealed, she offers to sacrifice herself. She even says that from now on, what happens next is not part of her mother's plan, but her own choice. She did not expect to find the entrance sealed.
That's some great additional evidence! And I really do like that explanation for the Misbegotten. It also just occurred to me that they could be "misbegotten" because they may have been failed attempts at rebirthing Radagon.
Though I don't think the Misbegotten in the Haligtree were an invading force; in the 1.0 description of the game, Loretta and some other Carians were actually sent by Radagon to help out Miquella ("Arbor Sentinel" set, which became the Loretta set). Of course that is cut content. So I think the Misbegotten may have been sent by Radagon to strengthen the Haligtree/keep up appearances to conceal his Rune of the Unborn sabotage. (There is also a Misbegotten guarding Redmane Castle, presumably to protect Radahn.)
Alternatively, since the Haligtree was supposed to be a sanctuary of sorts, it's possible some Misbegotten made the journey to be "cured" of their ailments by Miquella. That could also explain why there are Scarlet Rot Crystalians there as well.
@@garrulousgoldmask it may also explain why Master Hewg is in chains. He is loyal to Marika, there is no doubt about that, but he is also a Misbegotten. When his chains are broken, he remains, proving his loyalty. He was placed there in chains however by Marika, because as a "Radagon's Child", she had to take some precautions, even for him. Hewg accepts that and doesn't protest, because he understands.
That makes a lot of sense!
My theory is Radagon is a rebirthed Misbegotten. He bares the title of champion, and the only other champion we see in game is the Misbegotten that holds his sword. He has red hair, that only Giants and Misbegotten have in game. I think Marika rebirthed him than gave him the rune of rebirth. Which is why he had it to give to Rennala, who he trusted. We know from Bocs' quest that demi humans can be transformed with the rune of rebirth.
@@evilmac9623 this is a mistranslation. In the original Japanese texts, "champion" and "hero" are the same word [英雄].
> " *Hero's* Runes"
> " *Hero's* Graves"
> "After the First Defense of Leyndell, Kristoff earned the *hero's* honor of Erdtree Burial for the feat of capturing Godefroy the Grafted." - Ancient Dragon Knight Kristoff Ashes description
> "The enchanted knights, anointed by the Lunar Queen, were *heroes* of the highest honors, but fell into disarray with the decline of the royal family." - Carian Knight Set description
> "This incantation was used by *the champions* of the Erdtree in the First and the Second Liurnian Wars, during which the red-haired Radagon joined *the heroes'* ranks" - The Barrier of Gold description
> "And then, those at the academy realized. That Rennala was no *champion,* after all." - Rennala's set description
Based on the original, it's all the same [英雄].
I thought before Ranni would be considered the antagonist, ordering the knight of the long knives and the death of godwyn ultimately leading to Marika shattering the elden ring. But this also makes a lot of sense, good video!
Ranni did screw up a lot of things, but for the same reasons as Marika: to be free from the Golden Order, which is clearly flawed. I guess in that sense they share the same goals, and it's difficult to say who went about it the better way because the murder of Godwyn and also the shattering of the Elden Ring were both so devastating. Maybe even if nobody replaced Radagon as Elden Lord, Godwyn's deathroot might still have doomed the Erdtree and the Golden Order in the long run.
Ranni killed godwyn but the one Who sent everyone in a battleroyal was marika
One thing to note, Marika wants the Tarnished to kill a God. That’s her will. Gideon considers that impossible and cannot believe it is possible. So if the requirement is impossible, that must mean the quest of the tarnished is impossible. Therefore we are to struggle endlessly in pursuit of it.
That's a good defense of Gideon! Though of course the All-Knowing is soon proven wrong by the "GOD SLAIN" message after you kill the space whale.
Impossible maybe for crappy weapons. But she talked the blacksmith in the hold to craft a god killing weapon. When your weapons reach max upgrades, it's now a god slayer. She thought it through.
@@garrulousgoldmaskmelina actually says that returning the rune of death to the lands between goes against her mother's plans
I took that to mean that marika did want us to struggle for eternity
I think this plays into the theory of Marika being more of a mourning mother type, than the scheming mastermind. I like it.
5:56 Nice Reference.
People think (and understandably so) that the twins Miquella and Melania, were born *afflicted* because of the implications of "incest", i.e. Radagon and Marika being the same person means they're theoretically genetically closer than a brother and sister. However, they have two different genetic origins, along with a different body type, and genitalia. Most people probably just accept that "somehow" they could have sex with each other... however, this is unlikely as most of us could agree that it's still not plausible even in this crazy Miyazaki/George R R Martin compilation of a world. In all likeliness, in order for them to have children with each other (since only one of them can "exist" at any given time) Radagon and Marika together, likely planned to use the Rune of Rebirth to create their children as it was the only way possible for them to "procreate". We know one does not need a partner while using this method, since Rennala keeps making unlimited children with it all by herself; and three at a time no less, based on datamining the graphics off the "egg". This would also explain why each child completely takes after only one parent; Miquella only resembling Marika, and Malenia only resembling Radagon; and why they have two separate afflictions unlike the ACTUAL twins of Morgott and Mohg who shared the same Omen "curse/blessing", although even they only have Godfrey's traits and nothing of Marika's that we can see, where as Godwyn seemed to only take after Marika from what we can tell.
Point is, Godfrey and Marika can actually physically interact with each other, so the idea of them having children without the need of a Rune of Rebirth isn't hard to fathom. But I digress, chances are that Radagon and Marika used the Rune of Rebirth to create their children BEFORE Radagon divorced/left Rennala, giving her the Rune of Rebirth for -insert plausible reason here-, hence why Radagon was already aware of (and fully onboard with) the plan to become Queen Marika's King Consort, even though it was sudden/shocking news to Rennala who was never the same after that. It was because they'd reached that agreement ahead of time in their minds or however-the-hell they communicate with each other (maybe they leave little post-it notes written for each other on a refrigerator or something... I don't know, it's irrelevant.) Point is, this event also explains how both "twins" can become Empyreans, meeting the requirements of having no "mortal/non-god" parents, since each only has only a single parent that happens to be the same god sharing a body. This also explains how Ranni the Witch can be an Empyrean as well, despite her "full-blooded" siblings being mere-demigods; because she was "the test subject" so to speak. After having two natural children with Rennala, Radagon likely wanted to test the Rune of Rebirth (before fully committing to the "Operation: Figure-Out-How-To-Have-Kids-With-Myself" plan) while still with Rennala, in order to study the *resulting child* (Ranni) and see whether or not it was a worthy course of action he could undertake in the future once married to Marika.
This theory shows how Ranni, Miquella, and Malenia can all be Empyreans while adhering to the lore and keeping to the timeline's order of events. Though as to where Melina fits in to all this, I don't know as it isn't relevant yet given what little we know about her as well as what we DEFINITELY know about her.
One again, my point is that homie (Garrulous Goldmask) is right about the importance of the Rune of Rebirth. And it may indeed have been the key to the Queen/King Consort's plans. The parallels are already there; Marika having removed the Rune of Death and giving to the only person she trusted, her own Shadow, Maliketh to keep away from others; and Radagon having removed the Rune of Rebirth and giving it to Rennala (assuming he didn't create it himself since we know [due to the multiple endings] that Runes can be created via gestation (as in Fia's case) or discovery (as in Goldmask's case), or unspecified ownership (as in Dung Eater's case, via the translated Japanese text). This also sort of implies that Radagon may have actually really trusted Rennala after all the time they spent together married. But it still doesn't mean he held love for her in his heart, or that he held more love in his heart for her than he did for the Golden Order. And while I believe the Elden Beast also fits in to all this, it's not important enough to get into right now, less I end up writing a full blown thesis in novel format in the TH-cam comment section.
But yeah, loved the video since it got me thinking about the lore from different angles even though I had assumed I'd hit all the dead ends. Much appreciated, homie.
Thank you so much for the kind words and for leaving such a detailed take!
That's a very cogent explanation for how Radagon and Marika may have used the Rune of the Unborn! I do like how that explains how each of the twins is like one of the parents, and why Marika's previous set of twins actually had the same curse/blessing. Though to be honest, I think Radagon and Marika having children could be as simple as Radagon leaving a sample of his celestial dew, which Marika then takes into her Lordvessel. Compared to some of the origin stories found in other mythologies, that one is fairly tame and "rational" by comparison.
And that is a good point about whether the two of them can even communicate with one another, or if they only know what the one is doing/did by their actions. Though to be honest, I'm not sure if GRRM or Miyazaki spent that much time on the mechanics of Radagon and Marika sharing a body.
I definitely think the origin stories of Ranni and Melina are fascinating topics to explore. W/r/t Ranni, it's actually unclear if she even knew Radagon. By comparison, Ranni definitely had a close relationship with her mother, while we know that Rykard and Radahn admired their dad, as seen by their knight helms. As a further wrinkle, I'm also not sure if Ranni knew her own father had to die before she could usher in the Age of Stars.
As for Melina, my current working theory is that she's a product of virgin birth by Marika, so that Marika could burn away the thorns Radagon had set up.
It's intriguing that the main point of evidence for whether or not Radagon truly loved Rennala comes from the Golden Order Greatsword and its deliberately ambiguous wording (in the JPN, the description could be read as either Radagon having made the Greatsword in memory of her, or he just reforged the Moonlight Greatsword).
Thanks again for watching!
I highly doubt this theory.
It would imply thay no empyrean is born if not only from godly parents, which makes unexplicable why does the Vessel God even need an Elden Lord and why one should produce more than one candidates especially when they compete with each other such as Marika and the GEQ. if all could be furthered via parthenogenesis, all this would be convoluted and unnecessary.
Is then Melina the perfect Child creation? She does seem to have both parent's traits.
This is the longest YT comment I ever read and I have no regrets
Radagon isn't real. Radagon is not a separate person. Everything done by "Radagon" was done by Marika. The only separation between the Radagon and Marika is in the minds of those who have not seen through her deception.
This makes so much sense. It seemed weird that marika wanted to preserve her age but also let the tarnished make a new one. But it was radagon who wanted to preserve the age. This makes marika a little better.
and re: SmoughTown's Radagon video that brought me to this one, Marika shattered the elden ring (her and radagons shared body) once she saw the horror that Godwyn had become, unable to truly die due to her own golden order. She regretted what she had done, but radagon had flourished in her deathless age and had no desire for a new one.
@@DakkaSap I think it wasnt Godwyn death that lead her to shatter the elden ring actually, she already planned it because she is sick and tired of the great will, Godwyn only gives her another reason
Ranni doing her shit leads me to believe that being an empyrean isn't permanent when they have three empyrean successors to Marika, no? With that said, Ranni's desire to break away from the Greater Will's "will" led her to usher the night of the black knives in turn causing Marika to lose her shit and break the Elden Ring which Radagon was trying to fix. If you ask me, Radagon was already in a status quo of being in power though until Ranni decided she doesn't want to be a queen for the greater will.
Additionally, unless Marika has a mercurial mindset, isn't it contradicting that Gideon "believes" that "Marika" wants the tarnished to struggle endlessly... meanwhile, a certain blacksmith inhabiting a certain hold that houses an exclusive group of people was beckoned by Marika to forge a weapon fit to slay a "GOD," not a demigod btw. All I'm saying is, Gideon may have understood the wrong thing, may not have even communicated with Marika or something. Also see: www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/comments/13yjker/queen_marika_has_high_hopes_for_us_that_we/
I've finally come to understand.
The master was nothing more than a madman.
My thoughts on this matter of the rune of the unborn is: miquella and malenia are unable to succed marika god status due to their curses, miquella by the greater will and malenia by the goddess of rot, so the only one able to do it is ranni, but she don't want to and don't have her empirean flesh, so radagon give rennala the mission to "give birth" to a new empirean flesh for ranni.
I never thought about the possibility that the great rune of the unborn was actually supposed to be miquella's great rune, or that the absence of said rune is what caused the twins there affliction, an interesting idea I haven't heard anyone else bring up, excellent work, also radagon really trying to get on that top 10 worst anime dad's list
As some have already pointed out, during the events of the game, Radagon acts purely on behalf of Greater Will; he has no agenda of his own.
In a nutshell, here's what happened. At some point in the past, Marika started doubting the Golden Order (one of Melina's monologues), shattered the Elden Ring, started scheming behind the back of the Greater Will, and tasked Hewg with creating a weapon that will be able to one day slay a God (guess which one). Greater Will punished her and locked her down. Then it tasked Radagon with restoring and preserving its Order. Radagon failed to restore the Elden Ring, but at least he managed to keep the entrance to the tree locked. When our Tarnished finally breaks through, Greater Will uses Radagon to drive us away. When Radagon fails, Greater Will deems him useless and transforms his body into a sword and tries to confront us directly.
So, to summarize, Radagon is Greater Will's tool for preserving its order; this is his only goal and purpose. I actually kinda pity him.
big fan of your analysis, appreciate that this makes both logical plot sense and thematic sense for the story. the amount of genuine literary analysis within this game's fandom is really great to see 💛 also this video is so concise! which is always a good sign in a writer imo.
Thank you so much!
The K***ht made me laugh. Goofy naming censor.
What i find even more interesting is that the twofingers neither communicate with the greater will nor with radagon. Could it be that they not even know that marika was the one shattering the ring? In that case i think radagon must have been the one cruzifying marika
One cannot discuss radagon/Marika without fully understanding Renalla. It’s my opinion that they truly DO love each other and that radagons conflict with Marika was kind of related to that. He was hounded back from liurnia away from his family and we already know that despite the two being one in the same, they have separate goals and ambitions. Maybe the Amber egg wasn’t the cuckoo but radagon was. Not to the full moon, but against the fickleness of the gods themselves. It makes sense considering all he wants is to improve and better the golden order. Marika does NOT.
The point about Gideon communing w radagon not marika actually makes a ton of sense considering it’s not marikas portrait he has in his room
Also Gideon is a staunch fundamentalist
He may be referring to radagon as marika because publicly marika is the god not radagon
Fascinating. I think this is a very convincing interpretation and it shows once again the incredible wealth of meaning that can be gleaned from the world of the epos that is Elden Ring.
I think what helps is generally to see the lore woven in as a mythology and interpret it likewise: This means there's a lot of stories with their own histories, conflicting traditions and different ways to tell and read them. We cannot be sure that there is or is not one definitive truth at the center, but the stories tell many truths about life in the Lands Between.
Absolutely! And it's been wild to see just how many different mythological traditions the game has been able to seamlessly weave together.
That “censorship” at 5:55 is genius. Lol
I really like this theory! Its the first time that I heard someone connecting miquellas and malenias affliction to the rune kf the unborn being taken out of the elden ring.
Damn... this makes more sense than any evil Marika plot point.
This makes a lot of sense. Both Malenia's and Miquella's curses involve death, and being short-lived. Malenia dies and is reborn whenever she used the scarlet aeonia. And Miquella is constantly being reborn like the juvenile scholars. Which implies that he is dying each time, right?
I don't recall ever reading Miq being reborn, as that's a power seperate to the Amber Egg. I believe he's just forever young. Till the whole Haligtree experiment.
@@failegion7828 You could be right, I was assuming that constant rebirth was part of his curse but it might not be.
@@crowstakingoff It's definitely explained many times that it is not many items related to him tell that, his power is power of dreams and astral form's which is saint Trina.
Last part, u add is quite interesting 🤔, adds another layer, on mystery of Radagon, and his love for Rennala 🧐
good job man, i think you are onto something here
This is very well thought-out! It's so easy to gloss over the rune of the unborn.
Thank you so much!
Duuude, really this channel has an incredible theories. You're so unique!!
Thank you so much!
The true evil act he committed was being the first phase in a two stage fight
really great video, I found you to late. I like the theory allot. My current working theory for the rune of the unborn is pretty simple and strait forward (maybe to strait forward).
Radagon gives the amber egg, which is an unborn demi god to Rennala before Marikia is punished, as a way to save the child. The rune of the unborn materialises inside the egg, the same way the other great runes just materialises in their shard bearers bodies
Good work, you're good at this 😁
Thank you!
Another nteresting point is that both Miquella and Malenia are afflicted with curses related to other Outer Gods besides the Greater Will. Them being the Mother of Blood and the Rot Goddess respectivelly. Maybe those entyties seeing a "gap" in the Greater Will's power took advantage of that to afflict them with curses.
Solid theory. I think the defects of Miquella and Melania could easily be attributed to both their incestuous creation _and_ the fact the rune of the unborn was removed from the golden order. Either would be adequate explanations and they don't necessarily contridict one another. Perhaps the incestuous nature of their birth wouldn't have resulted in such extreme negative side effects if it weren't in conjunction with the rune being gone.
Thank you so much! And that's very true. It's also possible that Radagon, ever the scholar, knew that their selfcest would create problems, which in turn would make it even easier to cover up his sabotage.
@@garrulousgoldmask oooh i like it!
"And i woulda gotten away with it too if it werent for that meddlng tarnished busybody!!" -Radagon probably.
Never played or looked at anything Elden Ring related before this week, so it’s probably not my place to make theories, but here we go.
Perhaps Miquela and Milenia were cursed with imbalances of the two Laws.
Miquela is cursed with the Law of Regression. He cannot escape his roots, his childhood. His body constantly stagnates, without aging. Frozen in time.
Melania is cursed with the Law of Causality. She cannot escape the inevitable progression of the aging of her body, as it unnaturally tumbles forwards in the slope of rot. Falling through time.
Perhaps, like Mikalia and Radagon, the siblings were meant to be a single being. It could explain why they were so closed to one another.
P.S. Sorry if I spelt the names wrong.
Lorehunting can always use fresh pairs of eyes! And I definitely think you're on to something!
But I'd switch the Laws around, since you actually get the Incantation Law of Causality when you find Miquella. So I think that's a good indication he is linked to that principle in some way. And in that lens, he links together so much of the Lands Between in a "chain of relation."
He was trying to revive/euthanize Godwyn with the Eclipse (and may have been thwarted by Radahn), studied the Golden Order under Radagon, then abandoned Fundamentalism to develop a tool that would ward away outer gods, but was kidnapped by Mohg. And according to Gideon, that kidnapping was the final trigger that compelled Marika to shatter the Elden Ring.
As for Malenia, her body is constantly trying to regress her back to a primordial state of rot and decay; she is only alive thanks to the unalloyed gold and the sheer force of her will in resisting that regression.
And it's funny you mention that idea: I've actually been working on my own theory that Miquella and Malenia may have been one child but split apart, mainly on the sheer number of similarities between Marika, Miquella, and alchemy.
@@garrulousgoldmask Thanks for the encouragement! I can’t play Elden Ring (don’t have a strong enough PC), but I’ve started with Dark Souls.
That’s really interesting, though. You can definitely have multiple interpretations, of the mechanics of the different curses.
Perhaps Miquella could have used the Incantation Law of Causality to attempt to balance out his Curse, rather than it being emblematic of the curse.
Although that chain of causation is quite interesting to me. He seems the causative factor that leads to the death of the old age (whole Elden Ring) and the birth of the new one (shattered Elden Ring).
The idea of primordial rot feels similar to the idea of the Primordial Chaos found in many religions. It seems counter to the tenets of the Greater Will, as afaik, it’s a god based on Civilised Order. Also, Chaos is often viewed as feminine (Tiamat, Gaea, Echidna, etc.), whereas Order is often viewed as masculine.
I totally understand about not wanting to upgrade your PC! Though if you're willing to step down from your position in the PC Master Race, I would highly recommend getting a console to play Elden Ring.
That's a really interesting point about Miquella and the chain of causation. He definitely feels like he was supposed to be a bridge from Marika's age to a whole new era. That's further supported by all the Oracle Envoys in the Haligtree, who signal the arrival of a coming age.
And I hadn't thought about linking Scarlet Rot to primordial chaos! There's definitely a connection there, since to me both feel like a form of entropy mythologized. And to further support your point, Malenia and her daughters/sisters/offshoots in the form of Millicent and the other Scarlet Valkyries are all women.
@@garrulousgoldmask I am reticent to spend for a console, tbh. The only ones I own are a DS (Lite and 3DS), Wii and Switch. Though it probably is due time for me to upgrade my PC anyways.
Are the Oracle Envoys the old crones related to the Two Fingers? Did the Greater Will want the Elden Ring shattered?
Are all of the Scarlet Valkyries inflicted by the rot? Millicent is, but judging by the name, it seems they’re related.
That's fair!
The Oracle Envoys are the marshmallow guys who blow bubbles/wield golden vuvuzelas. (The Finger Readers are the old crones.) And I don't think the Greater Will wanted the Elden Ring shattered, though I don't think the GW is a sentient force per se.
Yep!
Elden ring is a post apocalypse game and nobody can convince me otherwise
That was really good.
Thank you!
Maybe Marika is skewered on a shard of Amber Starlight? It's meant to be the only thing that can challenge the fate of a god, after all.
It's possible! Though to me, the lance in Marika looks darker and has a deeper shade of red than the amber starlight.
Perfect, you solved the Twins. It makes sense. But yeah, the Veil it's actually merikas. Radegon emprisoned her in the tree. Pretended to be her while keeping her locked up to give birth. Maybe he was still mid experiment?
holy franch good insight(s)
....at least he was a good father toward Miquella as he was with the Golden Order...
you mean to tell me the final boss is the true antagonist? that's crazy
Look at the ending of attack on titan and it will make more sense..
@madifuho6688 what I mean by that is the events of the story originate from a creature from space...
I rarely think anyone gets everything right or really even close to it but I do think that different people come up with some different bits and pieces that can make a lot of sense. Linking the GR of unborn with the Demi god children not being healthy is an interesting though I haven't made a connection with. I just wish timeline stuff in ER was a little more clear cut.
I’d go a step up and say the elden beast is the real
Antagonistic. Marika was going against the GW and the EB. Maybe radagon and the Elden Beast don’t wanna be replaced. And that’s why enya and the fingers state that the GW has high hopes for us to become elden lord. Marika wishes it would all stay the same. EB and radagon don’t wanna be replaced. The GW wants anything but the current state.
This is 100% accurate in my eyes because the war started because it was a war of two families. Radagons old one and his new one. Including the fact he stole his second from another man. Then fused with her.
Adding onto this with Boc as if you choose to have him be reborn it doesn’t go very well since the great rune isn't in the egg anymore so it isn't that strange to assume without the rune future demigods would be well... imperfect
Marika is the true villain of the story. Banishing Godfrey and his men, casting away two of her children, separating Radagon from his family, and shattering the Elden Ring once the only son she loved died. Radagon tried to fix things by mending the Elden Ring, and I believe it is pretty likely that he was being puppeted by The Greater Will in the final fight.
Finally someone who tells it. Radagon was scheming all along. Radagon is to marika what Grey-Evil bu is to majin bu: her dark side, ejected and ibcarnated away. After radagon creation, marika is far less "fundamentalism", since radagon took that aspect. Along with being obsessed by perfection, since he sees himself as just another part of a whole, motivation why he seeks glintstone magic.
Glintstone magic he will not use against us, probably because he does not have a catalyst, or because having the elden beas inside prevents the glintstone magic. Someone says that he is controlled by the beast, but he clearly uses its signature moves in the fight, as said by the hammer. He does not fight like a beast, or the elden beast. Also, there is a theory that we fight not the true elden beast, but a remembrance-spirit or her like the ancestor spirits, since she is at least physically died when she became the original elden ring (but not completely died as ranni refers "i dont want to be controlled by that thing", and she speaks about the ring/beast, not the fingers).
About the rune of the unborne. It is the only rune taken away from the ring alongside the rune of dead. Like two opposite runes.
This must have caused a glitch on the erdtree system of apirit reincarnations and rebirth.
The erdtree is already a doomed system, since is based on the actual marika (human) elden ring, but is planted on the great root syatem that is the creation of the previous draconic elden ring, that managed the reincarnation and birth system of ancient dragons.
This glitch caused or speeded up the process ij which the original roots are influencing the erdtree, mixing the "genees", and because of that more and more omens are being born, including mohg and morgott (i think this is the confirmation that puts godwyn as the first marika born).
Also, probably black knife assassins are now connected to radagon, because they were connected to marika.
Lastly, the red spear on marika gas nothing to do with radagon or the elden beast (elden beast crucifixion attack is totally golden).
As stated by tarnishedarchaeologist, only maliketh is the one who did that, possibly asked by marika, to stop radagon interfering with her plans, and probably this is one motivation why maliketh has gone mad.
The only thing is: why maliketh did not turn against marika? She even shattered the ring. Are the fingers ok with that, but against ranni will to succeed her? Or are the fingers worried that ranni could take the elden ring away from the planet, while marika just wanted to get rid of radagon and fundamentalism?
agree, he made his FULL MOONLIGHT GREATSWORD IN TO PISS COLOR
i mean i think its pretty obvious that Marika was the main person responsible for setting off the events of elden ring, and since Marika is Radagon then well yea u could say he's also the one responsible
I don't quite see things that way. Marika shattered the Elden Ring as a result of grief over the murder of her favorite child Godwyn and her disillusion with the Greater Will, while Radagon tried desperately, in vain, to piece it back together to stave off the calamity that was about to ensue as a result. Really, the one that should be held most accountable for the suffering of everyone in the Lands Between is Ranni as it was her scheming that set the entirety of the game's events in motion.
@@hewhoshallnotbenamed5168 I gotta say, having rad GRRM's Fire and Blood, I always treated these tid bots of information as "accounts", rather than the truth.
Even the story trailer to the game isn't to be trusted because it shows this person hammering something outside of their body...
More importantly, Radagon's body cracks as he's hammering, as though it's suggesting he's actually breaking rather than fixing...
So ... Huh?
I mean, I get it, it's thematic, it's taking place inside this person's head... But it didn't seem to me as though there was a struggle...
Just despair on both of their ends.... And they're never in the same place together, not even in their head, like Clark Kent and Superman lol 🤣
Late comment, but a very great video!
I'm just feeling a bit lost in regards to the motivations of all these characters, as so much of their actions are hard to explain since their motivations are so difficult to understand. Gwyn, Laurence, King Allant, and Genichiro have far easier motivations behind their actions, but Marika and Radagon just completely stump me.
If Radagon is Marika, and likely shared similar goals at this time, then why would Marika banish Godfrey after Radagon marries Marika? Correct me if I'm mistaken, but your video seems to suggest that Radagon marrying Rennala and sabatoging her with the Great Rune of Unborn Demigods (is it really for unborn Demigods? I thought the Japanese text only references a single Demigod, not multiple?) was intentional on his part. If the two were the same at this time, then why would Marika conspire to have Radagon turn Rennala into a broken woman by giving her the Rune and then have Radagon return to Leyndell to become Elden Lord? His job of neutralizing the threat of the Carian royalty was complete when he married Rennala, and we know that the Golden Order is perfectly fine with adding new elements to their religion like with the Dragons. The house of Caria and the Erdtree were aligned and so there wouldn't have been a need to ruin Rennala further. And I think Godfrey's cut dialogue implied that his relationship with Marika was more loving rather than an act of convenience for the two of them.
And wouldn't Marika know what might happen if she had the Unborn Demigod Rune removed? So why continue with the birth of MIquella and Malenia, assuming they were born after Ranni? Would Marika have even been someone who would want an Empyrean to replace her and her established Order? She is the one who had the Gloam Eyed Queen defeated in order to create a world free from Death, so why would she want to have 3 new Empyreans who could upset that order?
The idea of Radagon being a power-hungry zealot doesn't really match what other item descriptions say of him. I've heard some theories say that Radagon's Great Rune is more of a support type of structure like what vines hang off of to grow, and his actions in trying to mend the Elden Ring support this idea of him wanting to uphold the status quo. I'm just wondering why he and Marika would have wanted the twins to be born, as Gideon's dialogue about Miquella and Marika's sorrow, and cut content imply that they were okay with the idea of Miquella's Haligtree replacing the Erdtree.
Sorry if this comment is all over the place. I totally get the idea of Radagon removing the Great Rune of Unborn Demigods could have resulted in the twin's afflictions, but I'm still lost on the 'why' aspect. So much of this relies on the assumption that Marika was playing 6D-chess and masterminding things since way back when. It doesn't explain why Marika had banished Godfrey all of a sudden only to immediately choose Radagon as a replacement, nor does it explain why she felt so much despair after Godwyn's death which made her shatter the Elden Ring. I would love to hear your thoughts on Marika's motivations, and whether Radagon went along with them until she tried to shatter the Elden Ring.
Thank you for watching and for writing such an in-depth comment!
For me, what really clicked in interpreting Marika and Radagon's actions was the idea that while they share a body, they have very different goals and objectives.
So I see Marika sending Godfrey away as a fail-safe if her plans failed. As for what those plans were, I believe her goals were aimed at retiring from her duties as Empyrean (which weighed heavy on her, as described by her soreseal and scarseal). Presumably, if she found a worthy Empyrean to act as a new vessel, she could step down from her role. (Placidusax's fled god shows that the Lands Between have already swapped out gods before.) That would explain why she had multiple children (Mohg/Morgott, Godwyn and who knows how many other demigods, Miquella and Malenia) and why the Golden Order was so supportive of the Haligtree. Even without the cut content, Marika's Soreseal is found at the bottom of the Haligtree. And if Miquella's Haligtree was truly meant to usurp the Erdtree, Leyndell forces surely would have attacked, like they did against Rykard, but of course they didn't.
We also know that Miquella was heavily involved with the Eclipse to either revive/euthanize Godwyn, who I assumed was supposed to be the Elden Lord for the next age. But when Miquella was kidnapped (not dead, but just vanished), that meant the Haligtree and any attempts with Godwyn were now doomed. And so, at that point Marika was truly driven to the brink and shattered the Elden Ring in an act of desperation. I'll most likely go deeper into Marika's motives deeper in its own video.
But while Marika wanted a new age, Radagon doesn't want this age to end, more in a metaphysical, than a political, game of thrones sense. With the future Empyreans sabotaged, I don't think Radagon would have felt his status as Elden Lord was threatened until the Shattering. That could also explain why he had a good relationship with Miquella: He knew his son couldn't succeed in succeeding him.
And to clarify, Radagon's sabotage was aimed at Marika; I don't think him giving the amber egg to Rennala was supposed to be a Trojan horse and ruin her. Personally, I think Radagon did always love Rennala and did not want to betray her, though the Golden Order Greatsword is deliberately ambiguous on that point in the Japanese. We also don't know about the mechanics of Radagon and Marika sharing a body so it's possible they could be unaware of what the other is up to.
@@garrulousgoldmask thank you for replying!
I’m a bit confused about your comment about Miquella and Mohg. You seem to imply that Miquella was kidnapped by Mohg BEFORE Marika shattered the Elden Ring?
I thought the correct order of events was that Godwyn dies -> Marika shatters the Elden Ring -> Demigods meet in Leyndell to discuss what happens next (according to that one stone sword monument) -> Demigods disagree on what to do next and the Shattering begins (since Godrick had to flee the Capital dressed as a woman and the Demigods had to rally their forces).
Wouldn’t Morgott and Mohg still be in the sewers if Marika was still around? Otherwise how would they have been able to leave? I always assumed that Morgott and Mohg were able to leave the sewers because Marika was imprisoned in the Erdtree and they were able to receive their Great Runes. So they would all meet each other after Marika shatters the Elden Ring. Plus, the other Demigods aside from the Omen twins have thrones in the Throne Room, and Morgott calls them all traitors, so wouldn’t Mohg have kidnapped Miquella during the events of the Shattering instead of before? Miquella had to have gotten his Great Rune sometime during this period after Marika shatters the Elden Ring, and it couldn’t have been while he was asleep.
I don’t know, maybe I’m just assuming the chronological series of events wrong.
Yep! At least, that's what Gideon tells us after you defeat Malenia. He says that he heard that "Miquella embedded himself in the Haligtree, but before he could finish, someone absconded with his infant form. Perhaps the Queen's sorrow was justified."
Though that's an interesting point you bring up about re: the Thrones. It's also weird that Morgott called out Ranni as a traitor in that scene, when the Shattering absolutely happened after the Night of the Black Knives. The best I can think of is that the sovereign alliance had those thrones set up for those two in absentia, since Miquella is missing, not dead. And it's unclear if the Lands Between thinks Ranni is dead or missing. Her body is locked behind an incredibly elaborate divine tower, and according to Rogier, Ranni hadn't been seen since the Shattering.
As for how Mohg could leave, he can disappear in a pool of blood, so that could explain how he escaped the sewers and how he snatched Miquella so easily.
And to be honest, I haven't really spent that much time thinking about how the demigods got ahold of their Great Runes, though at the very least, there seems to be a kind of hereditary component involved.
I think Radagon gave the rune to rennala to prevent it from ever being reforged into the Elden ring. She would never part with it because it’s the last piece of radagon she has.
I always thought that marika was still greatest protagonist - I mean we can’t forget what her shattering the elden ring did - it destroyed the whole world order and plummeted every person into war. That’s the murder of millions. Radagon at least tried to fix it, and his attempts to keep the tarnished away are obviously doubt and hesitancy towards wether the tarnished would fix the world satisfactorily.
Super interesting… This theory is very compelling.
Hey i got one for ya.... the god killing knife was used to split the 2 fingers from the 3 and thats why that town got banished ti the underground
Wondering if Marika was ever loyal at all to the Greater Will or if she was always independent of it, just taking advantage of its blessings while it let her lol. I have so many questions branching off of this one yes or no question that I would get lost trying to type them all out.
Interesting insights
Thanks!
Probably Radagon wanted Ranni to be the only worthy successor of Marika by removing the unborn rune before the rest demigods born.
1:55 That reminds me of Elden Ring's trailer, where Melina seems to be divining Marika's Echoes:
"They will fight and they will die in an unending curse."
That might have been actually Radagon's dying wish born of his fanaticism for the Golden Order, sealing the Erdtree in a desperate attempt to preserve what's left of the Order for eternity.
Oh, that would be a great callback!
I think your spotting of why the rune of the unborn being why miquella and malenia were plagued with imperfections is brilliant. It makes a lot of sense given the timeline. It might also explain why Ranni was chosen to become an emperyan, despite not being born of Radagon and Marika.
Two seconds of one song sends me reeling
I geuinely started crying
I think radagon was always part of Queen Marika which might explain why he fancies Godfrey so much. I like to think that marika and Godfrey at some point maybe fell in love with each other which explains why radagon would look up to Godfrey this much. There’s also leaked files which tell us that Godfrey and marika follow a plan so they definitely spend a lot of time together so maybe love or at least a huge amount of respect was earned by Godfrey. Either way it’s hard to believe that marika would find someone better then Godfrey given the fact that they followed the same plan. I mean we know that marika and radagon are the same being now but what if they always were the same being and radagon is just a puppet controlled by marika? This would explain why he seems like one in the end fight. This also explains why miquella and malenia were basically disabled cause they came form the same being and as we know in our world sibling relationships don’t rlly end in normal children so you having a relationship with yourself is bound to be worse. This is why the two are cursed. I mean don’t get me wrong marika and Godfrey only became consorts because of political reason but don’t you guys think due to the leaked file that Godfrey knows awfully much about Marikas true intentions and plans? They at least are great friends if not more and radagon is and was always marika
Excellent theory, i was always confused why marika's actions seemed so contradictory, but it makes perfect sense if it was radagon who was foiling her at every turn. As to why he gave the rune of the unborn to rennala, perhaps he was attempting to be reborn apart from marika, leaving her imprisoned in the tree, but was never able to seperate from his other half.
Wait, "will"? So they're talking about her last will and testament, an actual document, if it's being compared to "dying wish"?
you're analytical and not a storyteller type of lore content creator, i do like your content
Haha also for some reason TH-cam subtitle tend to say america instead of marica which make the video even more entertaining 😂
Thank you!
@@garrulousgoldmask you're welcome
Dang, he was Gwyn all along.
5:30 Parthenogenesis?
Radagon as the spear piercing Marika’s womb, then dropping, hair turns from golden to red and the fight with Radagon ensues is an interesting highlight.
End of the day. Its the same God with split personalities.
Bloodbourne mob: IT"S ALL YOUR FAULT
so instead of miquella being in the form of a larval tear or incomplete/mercurial, i thought of radagon as being this sort of mimic to marika. what led me to this was the cut quest for the silver tear asimi. asimi is a silver tear that becomes a part of the tarnished kinda hitching a ride similar to latenna however melina is even able to notice this extra presence when resting at a grace. she even greets them directly with *hello other you*. this makes me think of marikas line to radagon *thou art yet to become me, thou art yet to become a god*. in short marika created a mimic/silver tear, radagon, who married rennala but left her when marika had him return to the erdtree and they produced malenia and miquella. however since radagon left the rune with rennala the twins were incomplete.
i get the feeling that ranni and miquella had the greatest potential with ranni being born first and marika saw this. radagon being the leal hound that he is yearning to be complete came back as he is marikas mimic. similar to the cut asimi quest however it appears the mimic can begin to have their own free will and desires even sabotaging or trying to eliminate who created them.
I feel like Radagon is exactly like lord Gwyn from dark souls doing whatever they can to preserve their age of fire or the Golden order
Yes but radagon was a lot better than gwyn
I think its also very important what the Elden Beast does to Radagon, turns him into a tool to be wielded by the Greater Will's envoy.
Radagon is the main antagonists, but his motives are hidden behind many layers of obfuscation.
The true antagonist? He's literally the final boss of the game, I don't know how much more true an antagonist can get.
The True Antagonist is Ranni, she started it all
I believe that Marika is somehow cursed and it is something not known. Or there is a fault on the "twin birth" because not only Miquela and Malenia are afflicted but also Morgott and Mogh.
Another thing that made me think was the spear in Marika. In the Evangelion anime the spear was also a sort of locking System to bound the "giants" which could have the same meaning with Marika to keep her contained - if she was punished for the shattering then someone had to be punisher. In theory Radagon could be that punisher that was her champion and was choose by the will to replace her as he was the spear that bounded her and also the sword for the Beast, along that Marika still was capable of using the grace to guide the tarnished in this "uprising" against the will. This could explain why the two fingers got confused about the last line of actions to be taken by the tarnished as the grace is being controlled by Marika but not the Greater Will. In fact I don't fully believe Rasagon being part of Marika at first as he much more alike the fire giants and this could even be a sort of revenge. It is most likely he tried to absorb Marika once she has been contained and both are partially degraded from the process.
Unfortunately I think the DLC is our only hope have more answers and lots of new questions hahahahah
I love the souls community so much, this is such a kick ass theory and it goes through so many things I didn’t even think to look at a second time and it all makes sense. Shit if ur not on to something, I give up we’ll never get it
Marika is strung up and pierced through the belly because that's what the Elden Beast (aka the "phsyical manifestation" of the Greater Will in the mortal world) did to her. When the Elden Beast executes its grab attack on you, the same thing happens, but will lot's more light spears. So perhaps, because the Greater Will recognized that Radagon might still serve as a useful puppet, it only seriously maimed Marika, so as to allow Radagon to take over, but unbeknownst to him, he was just a slave. The symbology of the Elden Beast literally transforming Radagon's corpse into a sword points very strongly to this theory, as well: Radagon is merely a tool of the Great Will. Nothing more, and nothing less.
Awesome job with Radagon’s lore most just chalk it up to him and Marika being 2 beings in 1 host and Marika is the villain cause she destroyed the Elden ring and he’s the good guy for trying to repair it. But I never paid attention to the markings on the thorns until you mentioned it and it makes so much sense she’s just dangling in air like the one move the Elden Beast does to us then the red spear which weirdly looks like his hair is nowhere to be found inside the arena during or after the fight. I do recall another lore hunter suggesting that the spear belonged to the gloam eyed queen (which didn’t make sense) cause Maliketh killed her. But then you have Melina at the end promising you “destined death” and many say she’s the gloam eyed queen but I’m thinking she may be the GEQ’s daughter and not Marika’s. But that’s a different rabbit hole we won’t go down just yet. 😂
Thanks for sharing your POV with us I’m subscribed now 👍
It is interesting how one's views can differ from another's. You said Marika is the bad guy for breaking the ring, and Radagon the good guy for wanting to fix it. To me, it's the opposite. The golden order is evil, corrupt, controlling. Any attempts to destroy can only be a good thing to me, Marika is the hero.
The whole "struggle for ever" sounds a lot like the story behind Armored Core. But instead of gods there it was mega corporations.
"Is why he got fingered by the Frenzied Flame"
It's now a canon fact, and no one can tell me otherwise.
He is a chicken who barred up the doors and hid inside and cowered.So the greater will guides us to break in and claim it.
The only possible way for Ranni to be an empyrean is if she does not has a drop of Rennala’s blood in her. And what was their sigil again? Oh, it’s a cuckoo. A bird known to put their children into the care of other birds to take care of.
On the subject of "Marika's will", another thing to consider is the name of the god she once served. It could be that what he actually saw was something of the nature of the Greater Will, which is basically an eldritch horror. I don't know if it was deliberate, but I find that all of the outer gods make a decent allegory for colonial powers, baselessly claiming their own wisdom and benevolence before exploiting and enslaving the people of the lands between in the hopes of harvesting the land to add to their own wealth and power.
I also have a headcanon that harvesting the essence of the Lands Between would give enough power to create a new god, which various entities were interested in. The Greater Will wanted to use the Golden Order and the Erdtree to feed the power to its child the Elden Beast, the god of rot wanted to turn Malenia into a god using it, and Malenia held off on using the rot because if she used it three times and thus became a god, she would deprive Miquella of the same opportunity.
I could be wrong, but what I suspect is that when she turned against the Golden Order, Marika trapped the Elden Beast inside Radagon and then used her own "punishment" of being bound inside the Erdtree. That said, I don't think he was a good person even before that, as his treatment of Rennala indicates either callous insincerity or else that he lacked the free will to make moral decisions, possibly because of the influence of the law of regression.
As for the twins' afflictions, I would argue that the remembrance indicates that magic super incest was the reason they were afflicted, since it says they were "the children of a single god. As such they... suffered afflictions". You could read the second sentence as only attributing their empyrean status to their parentage, but I find the other reading more natural, and it would also make a certain degree of sense since, like purebred dogs, their incestuous parentage assured certain desirable traits but also worsened their overall health. Admittedly, I don't think item descriptions are meant to be 100% reliable so it's possible that even if that was what it was indicating it could still be false, or at least incomplete.
You do have some interesting points though, and there is definitely a plausible argument that he tried to prevent any threats to himself, but I think that by the time he did so he was acting under the control of the Elden Beast and not out of personal selfishness.
5:30 Tell your friend it's "selfcest", according to a friend who's firm in these kind of shipping terms....
Sounds like a solid theory! But in this case, what's the significance of the Elden Beast? Why does it try to stop us when we've taken down what was essentially stagnating the Golden Order?
Thank you! To me, the Elden Beast is an even more literal manifestation of the current version of the Golden Order and how it doesn't want to end. The Beast is fighting for its life: In 5 out of 6 endings, it's effectively replaced with a new Order, while the Frenzied Flame ending annihilates Order entirely. (That could also explain why it keeps running away so often!)
The golden order is evil, secretly managed by an outer god seeking souls and worship. That outer god is the Elden Beast, using the golden order to absorb souls and prayers. Marika learned this and shattered the ring as part of a plan to kill the Elden Beast. Radagon, either forcibly or by choice, let the Beast inhabit his body to use against anyone who comes in with intent to kill it. They planned to either have you die with all your great runes on your body and collect them, or you somehow get in and die to them and they get your great runes. Marika wanted Godfrey to be the Beast killer, bringing him back at the last second after you did all the work as a way of kill sniping it. And yes, she is actually the source of your grace guidance, not the Beast and Will.
At least, this is my reading of events.
1:20 sounds like a good time