*SHOP* Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2 Bookshelf Speakers: amzn.to/3Mmdbcz KICKER Quad 12" Box: amzn.to/3RZAOem SAVARD 6.5" HiQ Subwoofers - lddy.no/1iv98 (use code WAL for 7% off!) 7 Days of Amp Tests Playlist: th-cam.com/play/PLuodE1Zx7Y-6bhrEfCERSfl43EpB3P3lS.html *RELATED VIDEOS* 1991 Rockford Fosgate Power 1000 MOSFET: th-cam.com/video/MEuEbuNbcHc/w-d-xo.html 1994 Orion XTR-2250 "The Beast": th-cam.com/video/3ONCQEssGyA/w-d-xo.html 1991 Precision Power 2300AM (test): th-cam.com/video/wDy7hYagJMk/w-d-xo.html 1991 Precision Power 2300AM (test2): th-cam.com/video/SIfy5nefjVM/w-d-xo.html 1997 US Amps VLX-400 High Power Amplifier: th-cam.com/video/_3kN5mBTBpA/w-d-xo.html Vintage a/d/s PQ20 80x4 Amplifier: th-cam.com/video/KrLNDorSHKk/w-d-xo.html Brand New 37yr Old Sony Speakers: th-cam.com/video/i9zZOLvf_bI/w-d-xo.html '80s Sparkomatic Speakers: th-cam.com/video/loxJa2k2O5A/w-d-xo.html 1984 Kmart Blue Light Special Speakers: th-cam.com/video/ckvjUcq-ABs/w-d-xo.html Vintage Radio Shack Optimus Surface Mount Speakers: th-cam.com/video/hzKgtjZOaRg/w-d-xo.html The Worst $200 Speakers Ever: th-cam.com/video/S42JA00XVb8/w-d-xo.html *TEST BENCH EQUIPMENT* SMD / D'Amore Engineering Amp Dyno: goo.gl/sJTcf7 XS Power D1400 Batteries - amzn.to/2BPFCKW XS Power PSC60 Charger - amzn.to/2CHGcfs Fluke 1000A AC/DC Clamp Meter: amzn.to/2Rw5WDA Handheld Dyno: amzn.to/2u2EgKV My Favorite Screwdriver Kit: amzn.to/2x0VzcE _DISCLAIMER: This video and description contains affiliate links, which means that if you purchase from one of the product links, I may receive a small commission. As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases_
Young thundercats might believe that such "low" power numbers decades ago meant puny sound compared to nowadays, but those old systems were very loud for the much lower power numbers and just hit differently from the modern, louder stuff.
I agree. I had four Stillwater Designs Kicker Solo-baric 10s, a Sony Xplod 50x4 tape deck, a Sony 10-disc CD changer, and an old Soundstream Reference 1000x4 amp in my 1992 Acura Integra hatchback and that car pounded. Before that I had a 1994 Ford Explorer with the same setup, but with two JL Audio 15s and a US Amps 100x4 1/4 ohm stable amp (the red one with the plexiglass bottom) and it would bounce a full Coke can 10' off the roof.
@@Brock_Landers Wow, man. I can really imagine how good those systems sounded! I ALWAYS wanted those round Stillwater Solo-Baric subs, but couldn't afford them as a teenager. 😔 In the late 90s, I worked a summer job and managed to snatch two used 12" Stillwater Free-Air subs and I had them on a bandpass box. I had Kicker in high regards back then. To this day, my friend still has one of those subs (he blew up the other one) which I sold to a common school friend of ours before I Ieft for the Army. The thing still works.
You are absolutely right. I had a system in the 250-Watt class, no high-currents. Mine was biased toward sound quality and versatility - I could play absolutely anything and it sounded good. At the same time, I could hit 136.5 dB, which is plenty loud. Add to that that I didn't need alternators and battery banks. Megawatt-mutha systems are mostly unnecessary.
wattage doesn't necessarily mean louder. Wattage can mean there may be more headroom before clipping, but not really louder. Freq response, how clean the power supply is, etc will play a part in how loud it may sound or the quality of the sound. Class D amps don't have a lot of headroom, but are efficient to providing that power. Many ppl think that the Class D amp has a more sterile sound as well. (that's subjective). While a class A/B amp while being less efficient has a broader freq response. It's like comparing a tube/valve amp to a solid state amp of the same power rating. A lot of small (10-15w) tube amps sound just as loud as a 50w solid state amp. There's freqs response and dynamic power that make an amp sound better at higher volumes so they end up sounding louder watt vs watt.
OMG Godfather M&M is the first sub that I dreamed of back in the days. There were others that I liked for sure, but I couldn’t afford them when I first got in to cat audio. All of those Amps were on my dream list as well. Thank you for keeping the old school alive.
I ran a series viii Boltar to 4 fosgate punch 15s back in the early 90s in high school, killer output for its time. Gerald Kirklands 1985 Blazer had multiple Colossus amps and was legendary, worth a look
That picture of the Pyle Pro subs brings back a a lot of memories. My brother and not only swapped the 302 fort a Mark V 454 crate engine in his 1982 Monte, we also competed in car stereo competitions. We ran two of those Pyle Pros in the trunk (12's). I attribute most of my hearing loss to those buggers. I'm stil building car audio systems now. Upgrading my son's Jetta with a four-way Focal and Morell blended front end pushed by a Rockford class a/b and a topstrong gear for the midbass. Thanks Willisoton for the topstronggear review. That amp is nice.
Big-D!!! Thank you so much for all your hard work. I really appreciate 🙏 what you do for the time that I grew up. Please don't stop doing your thing!! Would love to see more late 80's early 90's BMX stuff!!!!
It's incredible how much things have changed in just 30 years. This amp is massive on size compared to how small that same amount of power is today. The face-lift on that amp is pretty awesome. Love all the uploads this last week Dereck!
@bobcat3653 kinda. You can still get amazing build and sound quality today that blows stuff from that era away. Helix, Audison hell even kenwood and Sony. But you definitely pay for it. That is if I'm understanding you correctly.
I loved this review! I may be one of the most dedicated Old School Zed Audio fans out there. I had my late 80's Autotek amps completely restored by Stephen Mantz and I'm running in my 4Runner now. (2) Autotek 7204 BTS 4x50, and (2) 7300 BTS 2x150 or 500 x1 bridged. They sound and look incredible with that blue stripe on Al heat sink! Keep up the great work Big D - your fan since 2012.
I had a little 2 channel Autotek running 2 punch 10s and fosgate mids and tweets. In a 84 Nissan pickup that amp trashed one of the 10s and blew both tweeters. 30+ years later and fools still talk about that system haha. OG Autotek was sick.
No it’s not!! This guy is a joke!! If you LISTEN to what he says he has NO idea what he is saying. He is repeating articles written. Someone’s opinion is not Facts. He does is every video. Says something that make zero sense. Fake dude here just making a living off less educated people. There are a group of these idiots online. Him,bass dad! Lol!! Even worse. Bass Dad will steal your sponsors. The guy, emails and calls other TH-camrs sponsors and badmouths them. I know of several people he’s hit!
In the 35 years or so I've been in the Car Audio industry I've seen alot of changes. I made a pretty good living over the years in the business and its cool to relive some of the good ol days here. I could go on and on...
Back when I was an early teenager (like 14) my buddy had a 1995 S-10 single cab long bed and he sealed a cap onto the cab, removed the rear window, and he had a HUGE box in the back with four MTX 15s running on a small RF amp of some kind. I remember that you had to wear ear muffs to ride in it. He won multiple SPL shows with it. He would stand outside of the truck and use his remote to control it. He broke the 150 db mark a few times. He actually had to use aluminum foil for a fuse because it kept blowing...😂😂😂 He's now in his 50s and owns a local successful tree service. Still a great guy.
I had a Devastator 15” subwoofer back in the mid 90’s. I’ve never heard of or seen this brand since. The build quality was decent and remember lending it to a friend and he ran it with probably a 100-200 watt amp. Remember hearing the bass from about 1/2 mile away. It was amazing how much bass you could get with so little power and swap meet speaker.
Big D saving the best for last!!! I had a couple of Cupids and a Vulcan back in the day. Love me some Zed Audio HiFonics!!! Thanks Big D, and happy new year!!!
Awesome video and fun trip back in time with all the info you presented! Your amp is a beautiful piece of history. I always liked the series VI and VII Hifonics amplifiers the best. These videos are pure gold!!
The crazy thing is subs handled much less power in the 80's, but you could hear the mini trucks coming blocks away with two 12's only. My uncles crew of mini trucks was bumpin.
I love the fact you take me back to my younger years when I first got into car audio❤ I currently run Hifonics amps, they're still awesome😊 Happy New Year Big D !!🎉 I can't wait to see what you have in store for us this year!
I have a Series VII Zeus, VI Thor and Pluto and and a VI Odin and a 90s MTX Thunder Pro 2300 cheater amp (Big D tested one and it was crazy underrated) sitting in my garage, all serviced by Steve at ZED 2 years ago. My old F150 Harley Truck is all wired and ready but I found leaks in the rear window and now possibly the roof seams or sunroof track that are causing drips on the rear cab wall, so I'm on hold until I get that sorted out. Too many house and work projects going on so it's been back burnered, but I'm doing it as soon as I can!
At a small shop I worked in L.A we build a Blastrovan with all those RF amps @ 2:51. They powered a total of 30 speakers including tweeters,mids and woofers. We installed four 21" woofers custom made by RF, yeah that is right 21" woofers. The first day of testing the bass was so loud it rattled the windows of all the shops across street. I dont remember how much power we got, but it competed against a similar install built by RF and we won.
In quegli anni installare simili ampli sulle auto era una cosa straordinaria. Le auto si prestavano moltissimo a configurazioni complesse di installazione hi-fi car. Io stesso ero un'installatore professionista del settore, mi divertivo moltissimo nelle vw golf e nelle Audi station wagon. Che ricordi unici. Quando uscì hifonics colossus eravamo tutti in trepidazione per provarlo. Mamma mia un mostro di potenza oltre ad Orion. Straordinari❤
I had the m&m Godfather 15 inch. Four of them on the auto tech 7300. And it boomed huge. I had one of the first epicenters and that made a huge difference.
My dad had a pair of just12" MTX in a custom ported box in back in 1990 running off of a colossus @4ohm bridged to single channel, he got those MTX's as demo units before they were released, I remember the struggle of him getting the box the right dimensions because the baskets and magnets were larger than the drivers and each speaker must have been 25lbs, something you just didn't see back then. That van also had a really nice set of Boston Acoustic 5" + 6x9's running off of a super clean 600W 150x4 the sounded way more powerful than it really should have been, bumped harder than any vehicle around, and we lived in an urban area, made guys with 4 x 15" Kicker and Pyle setups running multiple 1000W sub amps jealous.
Man this brings back so many memories. I was a regular at Speaker Works Tempe Az. and started messing with installs in 86', when I was 15 going on 16 years old. Still gotta have a beat in the car. I was always an Orion guy, but man the Art Series PPI amps were soooo nice. Everyone was after the Colossus. But when the Orion HCCA amps came out everything changed. Crazy times. Very cool content bud
Dude, thanks so much for these. I started getting into car audio in 96 right as I turned a teenager so these are all awesome to see! My favorites during that time was the pioneer premier PRS x340 and prs x720. Always thought they were beautiful and very underrated!
In my opinion these older amps sound better because of other factors that we don't commonly take into consideration like damping factor and slew rate. Having said that to say I wish there was a way to demonstrate the combination of these things better than through just wattage output. You can have all the power in the world but if you have no control over the cone what comes out will not be the same
You are absolutely right. There is more to it than wattage. Sloppy power it's sloppy sound. I lamented it back then and I do today: there should be an industrywide standard (ie, 20 Hz to 20 kHz (not necessary on sub amps, but should be full bandwidth for intended purpose) @ 12 V for all specs). That way, everyone is comparing like to like. What is the purpose of rating at 14.4 V when most alternators don't output that at idle? Ditto 13.8 V when that's not what an amp sees when the car isn't running. There can be worlds of difference in how two amps perform.
@@WSKRBSCT I had a '76 Trans Am and it output right at 13.8 volts. Back in the day any decent amp was rated at 13.8 volts. I've never owned a car that didn't output more than 13 volts while running even with A/C on. What cars are you buying with puny charging systems?
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt Read it again. I said alternators outputting 14.4 V at idle. I went on to say that an amp won't see 13.8 V when the car isn't running. Because of that, they should rate all amps at 12 V (really 12.6, I guess, since each cell is 2.1 V) as that is the minimum voltage of a healthy battery and one they almost certainly will see. That extra volt or two can make a big difference when it comes to what an amp outputs. To add, I had PPI amps in my system. Those amps were rated 11 - 15 V. They had regulated power supplies.
Agree I always think 🤔 what did they do different my old school soundstream makes my subs pound beautiful. I don’t have to mess around with the eq compare to my brother skar audio amp witch is little bigger but try the same sub not the same results. Even home audio receivers old school ones are the best for stereo listening
@@WSKRBSCT I don't need to read it again. Statistics show people listen to the car audio 99.5 % while it is running, therefore my statement. I too had PPI amps and consider them to be some of the best sounding amps of the day, much better than the overly warm non resolute Soundstream Reference amps of the same era.
I had a Series VII Europa and Hercules in my ‘88 Grand Prix SE back in ‘90. Absolutely loved those amplifiers and they had great sound quality. I went through 6 alternators while I had that system installed so they definitely pulled some current!
man I remember having the series 7 Hercules Vulcan atlas and even had a pluto at one time other then the connectors they were great until i got my hands on a 200 DSM and a 4080 DSM right after my MTX Thunder pro and Black gold days its clear i am an audio nut and still have a ref 500 and dsm 200 love the show keep it rockin
HNY Big D...Thanks for this because as the 1st installer for Columbus Car Audio from the 70's in these times it became apparent that size and power were King. My Amps were an EARTHQUAKE for LOWS running 3 Cerwin 12's while an ORION ran the HIGHS in the trunk of a 67 Mustang which used a Lincoln alternator...even found a pic!
Excellent video- Hifonics Series VIII was my favorite install! 87 Cutlass Boltar- Cupid- A Colossus VIII is my Holly Grail!!! Amazing memories ❤️ Happy 24 !!!!
Back in 1988 or so had the Pyle Pro 10 box in the rear of an IROC-Z. Coustic 6x9s in the front and coustic amps and cross over. Alpine headunit. Was the Shit till the Rockford Punch Pro 12s showed up. Then there was this Isuzu Amigo running around with Kicker Comp 15s..damn!
We had a Gen XI Colossus hanging over the register at the stereo shop I worked at back in the day. It was a great conversation piece because it was so freakin massive.
Jason Champion of Middlesex NC had a S10 With 16 Hifonics Subs in it with the Hifonics Ulysses Amps. It was so much Pressure. Hifonics was incredible back in the day.
I remember having a Buick regal behind me at a stop sign, back in the 80's, and when the beat dropped from mc breed, ain't no future in yo front in, it scared the shit out of me! 😂 I could feel that bass drum in my chest! Sound that would rival any new system now days. Also my neighbor's 15" magmas along with slaps, hit so hard you just didn't hear it, you felt it! It would make my voice break and sound like a sheep while trying to hold down a conversation! I miss those earthquake magmas!
This amp was one of the inspirations for me to get into car audio. My friend had a colossus and 2 Zeus on 4 lanzar 18" walled up in a low rider S10 blazer along with an isis running all the MB Quart speakers. Very loud and low. Won lots of competitions and could hear it coming about 2 miles away. Of course he had a high output alt and a row of about 6 deep cycle batteries across the back. I actually have the Callisto crossover that ran the whole system.
The series 7 was so clean. I started my first system with Sony xr7280 pull out tape with mk2 xe8 eq and a majestic 175x2 amp running a set of MTX road thunder 2 10” full range boxes and it sound ok at lower volumes but when I tried to push them, the music blended together. Bass and treble just kind of blended. So I called Aaron at CarFi in Everett wa where I bought everything and told him. He stopped by my work and we swapped in a series 7 Hifonics Thor, the difference was incredible. The bass would punch me in the chest. The Piezo horns while crisp and clear, would make your ears bleed. There was so many times I got out of my car and my ears would ring. I stepped up to the Sony pull out cd player with the sony tape drawer and it was amazing. I sent Bid D the tape drawer and he had it on the channel. I bought a series 8 Thor on the same set up and was advised it wasn’t as good as the 7 but I disagree. It was loud and clean and would go longer before it would overheat. lol, class AB life!
I remember one of my employees had a single cab truck and added a sleeper . In that sleeper he added 2 18inch PRO PYLE subs and used the colossus amp . We worked at Coca-Cola warehouse and he vibrated everything in the BACK of the warehouse. Keep in mind the back was about 80 yards away .
I still think the early 90s had some of the cleanest installs on demo vehicles. I love seeing all the gear from back in the day. Back then we had “sound offs” everywhere and there was always good turnouts.
In high-school my buddy had hifonics amps and crossovers and cerwin vega 12's. Then we built a box for two 15" lanzars that filled the truckbed. The speakers were at the tailgate with a plywood tunnel spanning the bed to the cab. Then we ported the cab into the bed and put a heavy homemade tonneau on the bed. Those lanzars would bounce a quarter a coupla inches or so off the tonneau cover. Now i don't hear so good 🤘😁🤘y'all have a badass day🤘 Edit: he had the hercules amp and i think the crossover was called aphrodite maybe Edit: they were 18" lanzars, sorry, it's been awhile 🤘
Boy, this takes me back. I did a customer car with a bunch of series VII, with Alpine head unit and Dynaudio, Scanspeak, & Eminence. It was an epic install for the day. Very clean. Those capacitors dry out over time. I wonder how that factors into your measurements. Thank you for the trip down memory lane.
I remember reading about these amos back in the day . An also knew that was bug power . If i recall there were only a few custom builds with them iv ever seen all custom with custom brackets for the multiple alternator set ups. Really cool stuff.
Big D it's like you said this is what we had back in the day and we made it work. This is a beautiful amp. When paired up with enough old school woofers they Bumped 🔊🔊🔊
In my new 89' 240sx coupe I ran a Zeus for the subs,Odin for everything else. 2 15 Lanzar free airs in the back seat in the trunk.Every nook and cranny sealed with silicone.Rubber blocks wedged and screwed in anywhere body panels needed reinforcing. Ribbon tweets on dash, 12" long horn tweets under dash I copycated from the black Buick regal champion of the day
Man i loved those magazines when I was a kid, I'd go food shopping every week with my mom, so i could soendnd the entire time at the magazine rack reading car audio mags. Yeah I was under ten all alone in a super market(different world then) Thanks Big D! These videos always bring back the excitement of being a kid looking at the epic drool wothy top of the line amps from that day
I remember back in 1990's (early) Heart made a subwoofer you could plug into the wall socket and it would not blow it. It had a giant magnet motor on the back of it and was made in Puyallup Washington. Looking up this subwoofer I cannot find much about it. I do remember seeing info about it back in the day and it was massive for the day. Be cool to see one again.
I had the 2004 version of the colossus called hifonics colossus II by maxxsonics. A class D design with two 1600 watt circuit boards in side of it. 3200 watts rms, they was calling it a hybrid amp at the time. The cool thing about it was each 1600 watt circuit board was 1 ohm stable. So each sub could be wired down to 1 ohm for the full load.
I had a Zeus and Colossus about this time and remember they didn't cosmetically match. That probably suggests it was same as this (series 6). The Zeus had a thumping noise that was a ground plane problem between it and the EQX. I ran them for about a month. The shop said they'd take them back so I returned them. Changed to a Power 1000 / 300 combo and the difference was night and day. The Rockfords were soooo much more musical. The system eventually became a pair of Power 1000s and that was another level of crisp, responsive performance. Absolutely loved those Power 1000s. I never could figure out why the Hifonics stuff looked so good on paper but, didn't sound nearly as good. Didn't know if it was slew rate, preamp design, or some other intangible that couldn't be measured. Michael Jackson Earth Song could start at a comfortable level and be blowing you out of the car by the end. The Rockford dynamics are insane.
No doubt! Even the Zeus at around $900 was only a dream amp. My rich friends to me were balling with $500 amps like the Thor. I just feel blessed to have some of these now and to be able to show them off for us all to revisit the nostalgia!
I never appreciated zed amps back then. I had a car audio shop show me on a scope they didn't make rated at 4ohms. Of course they didnt carry zed so they had the perfect marketing plan. But today I love the pure art put into zed audio amps. For an electronics nerd, its fine art.
Went to the UK motor show in 1985 Birmingham NEC building. Pioneer were demonstrating there new'Head Unit' with wait for it....4x 25w per ch. Spks mounted in a big wall playing Dire Straits Money 4Nothing. The crowd were blown away...we'll not quite😉
Nice. I sold Car Audio around 94-96. Art, PPI, Phoenix Gold, lots of good stuff. The Phoenix Gold Frank AMP'N Stein was the one we were all competing to sell. I had the Hifonics Zeus. They were decent amps. Honestly all the hype about THD and other stats rarely translated into anything perceivable; and trust me I A/B'ed a LOT of amps, speakers, receivers, etc. You know back them Monster Cable was selling directional speaker wire? Heck , maybe they still do. If we hooked them up backwards, you would have to shake all the electrons back in place ...
The old bass was something different. I remember the bass hitting harder and lower with a lot less power. Most of us never thought of putting the amount out power that we use now in a car system back in the 80s and 90s.
*0:29** I had those CV's they were awesome and dank. Placed first at 157db with those and 4 Orion 15s. Ran HiFonics series VIIs. A Zeus, and an Aphrodite. I still have my Ser VIIs because they are classics.*
I coveted these amps back in the day. This one was just too out of reach to worry about, but the "smaller" HiFonics were on my wish list, along with that Linear Power Servo sub system
That is the issue of Auto Sound & Security that got me into car audio I've wanted an Astro ever since. I was 10 I bought an issue of Auto Sound & Security an issue of Lowrider and an issue of Hot Rod and I have been into hot rods, lowriders, and car audio ever since.
@0:24 - Vanilla Ice just mentioned in a video that Ice Ice the song specifically mentioned "Vega" subs and that many people get the lyrics wrong and say "Vegas.(as in the place)" He did a small aside about the " Vegas' " being the sub of choice back when he was coming up.
Earthquake San Francisco series subs and amps were the true monsters of bass in the 90s. Their newer subs the Holee S are absolutely insane. The sound they make is just something different from everything else.
i have the ppi art series amps A300 and A600. i bought them in the early 90"s. they both worked when i took them out. for there size was real clean sounding and powerful. id like to have them gone through and checked. great AB amps
Back in 90 I was told that hifonics was by Rockford fosgate because an engineer left and started hifinics. Back then hifonics soundstream and most of what is like by zed audio was super cheap to buy if you owned a shop. The cost was regularly 60% of what brands like mtx Rockford fosgate and pioneer.
Car audio employees and engineers all seemed to work for one another back and forth. Good amp designers was always being hired back and forth to do projects for different company's. Which is not a bad thing. It's a pretty specialized field and the guys with talent went all over
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7 Days of Amp Tests Playlist: th-cam.com/play/PLuodE1Zx7Y-6bhrEfCERSfl43EpB3P3lS.html
*RELATED VIDEOS*
1991 Rockford Fosgate Power 1000 MOSFET: th-cam.com/video/MEuEbuNbcHc/w-d-xo.html
1994 Orion XTR-2250 "The Beast": th-cam.com/video/3ONCQEssGyA/w-d-xo.html
1991 Precision Power 2300AM (test): th-cam.com/video/wDy7hYagJMk/w-d-xo.html
1991 Precision Power 2300AM (test2): th-cam.com/video/SIfy5nefjVM/w-d-xo.html
1997 US Amps VLX-400 High Power Amplifier: th-cam.com/video/_3kN5mBTBpA/w-d-xo.html
Vintage a/d/s PQ20 80x4 Amplifier: th-cam.com/video/KrLNDorSHKk/w-d-xo.html
Brand New 37yr Old Sony Speakers: th-cam.com/video/i9zZOLvf_bI/w-d-xo.html
'80s Sparkomatic Speakers: th-cam.com/video/loxJa2k2O5A/w-d-xo.html
1984 Kmart Blue Light Special Speakers: th-cam.com/video/ckvjUcq-ABs/w-d-xo.html
Vintage Radio Shack Optimus Surface Mount Speakers: th-cam.com/video/hzKgtjZOaRg/w-d-xo.html
The Worst $200 Speakers Ever: th-cam.com/video/S42JA00XVb8/w-d-xo.html
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_DISCLAIMER: This video and description contains affiliate links, which means that if you purchase from one of the product links, I may receive a small commission. As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases_
Phoniex gold was around back then too
Young thundercats might believe that such "low" power numbers decades ago meant puny sound compared to nowadays, but those old systems were very loud for the much lower power numbers and just hit differently from the modern, louder stuff.
I agree. I had four Stillwater Designs Kicker Solo-baric 10s, a Sony Xplod 50x4 tape deck, a Sony 10-disc CD changer, and an old Soundstream Reference 1000x4 amp in my 1992 Acura Integra hatchback and that car pounded. Before that I had a 1994 Ford Explorer with the same setup, but with two JL Audio 15s and a US Amps 100x4 1/4 ohm stable amp (the red one with the plexiglass bottom) and it would bounce a full Coke can 10' off the roof.
@@Brock_Landers Wow, man. I can really imagine how good those systems sounded!
I ALWAYS wanted those round Stillwater Solo-Baric subs, but couldn't afford them as a teenager. 😔
In the late 90s, I worked a summer job and managed to snatch two used 12" Stillwater Free-Air subs and I had them on a bandpass box. I had Kicker in high regards back then.
To this day, my friend still has one of those subs (he blew up the other one) which I sold to a common school friend of ours before I Ieft for the Army. The thing still works.
It's because speakers that can handle modern amps are not as efficient.
You are absolutely right. I had a system in the 250-Watt class, no high-currents. Mine was biased toward sound quality and versatility - I could play absolutely anything and it sounded good. At the same time, I could hit 136.5 dB, which is plenty loud. Add to that that I didn't need alternators and battery banks. Megawatt-mutha systems are mostly unnecessary.
wattage doesn't necessarily mean louder. Wattage can mean there may be more headroom before clipping, but not really louder. Freq response, how clean the power supply is, etc will play a part in how loud it may sound or the quality of the sound. Class D amps don't have a lot of headroom, but are efficient to providing that power. Many ppl think that the Class D amp has a more sterile sound as well. (that's subjective). While a class A/B amp while being less efficient has a broader freq response. It's like comparing a tube/valve amp to a solid state amp of the same power rating. A lot of small (10-15w) tube amps sound just as loud as a 50w solid state amp.
There's freqs response and dynamic power that make an amp sound better at higher volumes so they end up sounding louder watt vs watt.
OMG
Godfather M&M is the first sub that I dreamed of back in the days.
There were others that I liked for sure, but I couldn’t afford them when I first got in to cat audio.
All of those Amps were on my dream list as well. Thank you for keeping the old school alive.
I ran a series viii Boltar to 4 fosgate punch 15s back in the early 90s in high school, killer output for its time. Gerald Kirklands 1985 Blazer had multiple Colossus amps and was legendary, worth a look
That Blazer is awesome
That was a badass Blazer. 4 Colossus amps four alternators etc..
Love your foxbody btw
@@xxskizzumxx thanks dawg! Had her for 27years now, still rips
That picture of the Pyle Pro subs brings back a a lot of memories. My brother and not only swapped the 302 fort a Mark V 454 crate engine in his 1982 Monte, we also competed in car stereo competitions. We ran two of those Pyle Pros in the trunk (12's). I attribute most of my hearing loss to those buggers. I'm stil building car audio systems now. Upgrading my son's Jetta with a four-way Focal and Morell blended front end pushed by a Rockford class a/b and a topstrong gear for the midbass. Thanks Willisoton for the topstronggear review. That amp is nice.
A monte carlo wouldn't normally have a 302 , thays a ford engine .
Unless somebody did a custom engine swap ?! 🤠👍
@@bobcat3653Yes, you are right, it was a 305! Sorry, that was a long time ago. But we still have it!
Bobcat your incorrect gm also did have a 302 1969 Camaro
Big-D!!! Thank you so much for all your hard work. I really appreciate 🙏 what you do for the time that I grew up. Please don't stop doing your thing!! Would love to see more late 80's early 90's BMX stuff!!!!
Happy New Year America! Thanks Big D for putting together the videos that bring back such much needed teenage memories and joy. Priceless my brother.
It's incredible how much things have changed in just 30 years. This amp is massive on size compared to how small that same amount of power is today. The face-lift on that amp is pretty awesome. Love all the uploads this last week Dereck!
True , but the sound & build quality were amazing back then . And the dollar pee watt proves this lol
@bobcat3653 kinda. You can still get amazing build and sound quality today that blows stuff from that era away. Helix, Audison hell even kenwood and Sony. But you definitely pay for it. That is if I'm understanding you correctly.
I loved this review! I may be one of the most dedicated Old School Zed Audio fans out there. I had my late 80's Autotek amps completely restored by Stephen Mantz and I'm running in my 4Runner now. (2) Autotek 7204 BTS 4x50, and (2) 7300 BTS 2x150 or 500 x1 bridged. They sound and look incredible with that blue stripe on Al heat sink! Keep up the great work Big D - your fan since 2012.
That's one heck of a setup you have! Dedication to the Old School for sure!
I had a little 2 channel Autotek running 2 punch 10s and fosgate mids and tweets. In a 84 Nissan pickup that amp trashed one of the 10s and blew both tweeters. 30+ years later and fools still talk about that system haha. OG Autotek was sick.
This channel is such a resource and historical reference for the car audio community! Thanks Big D!
No it’s not!! This guy is a joke!! If you LISTEN to what he says he has NO idea what he is saying. He is repeating articles written. Someone’s opinion is not Facts. He does is every video. Says something that make zero sense. Fake dude here just making a living off less educated people. There are a group of these idiots online. Him,bass dad! Lol!! Even worse.
Bass Dad will steal your sponsors. The guy, emails and calls other TH-camrs sponsors and badmouths them. I know of several people he’s hit!
Brings back great memories and people that relate to 80s and 90s car audio.
Those Godfather 15s were amazing! Happy New Year toyou Big B, and to all you old school fanatics!
I have the series vii colossus and Zeus. I'll be buried with it lol
Excellent video 👍🤞
😅
Oh man I had the 7 series zues with 2 zues 15’s damn it hit so hard!!
In the 35 years or so I've been in the Car Audio industry I've seen alot of changes. I made a pretty good living over the years in the business and its cool to relive some of the good ol days here. I could go on and on...
Back when I was an early teenager (like 14) my buddy had a 1995 S-10 single cab long bed and he sealed a cap onto the cab, removed the rear window, and he had a HUGE box in the back with four MTX 15s running on a small RF amp of some kind. I remember that you had to wear ear muffs to ride in it. He won multiple SPL shows with it. He would stand outside of the truck and use his remote to control it. He broke the 150 db mark a few times. He actually had to use aluminum foil for a fuse because it kept blowing...😂😂😂 He's now in his 50s and owns a local successful tree service. Still a great guy.
That van with the M&M 15s and two Colossus's would still impress today!
I had two 12" m&m woofers in my Volkswagen rabbit. In the early 80s. They had some serious bump to them.
I had a Devastator 15” subwoofer back in the mid 90’s. I’ve never heard of or seen this brand since. The build quality was decent and remember lending it to a friend and he ran it with probably a 100-200 watt amp. Remember hearing the bass from about 1/2 mile away. It was amazing how much bass you could get with so little power and swap meet speaker.
Big D saving the best for last!!! I had a couple of Cupids and a Vulcan back in the day. Love me some Zed Audio HiFonics!!!
Thanks Big D, and happy new year!!!
Awesome video and fun trip back in time with all the info you presented! Your amp is a beautiful piece of history.
I always liked the series VI and VII Hifonics amplifiers the best.
These videos are pure gold!!
Finally Big D 🙌 covers the old Colossus... my dream amp back then 🎉🎉🎉
The crazy thing is subs handled much less power in the 80's, but you could hear the mini trucks coming blocks away with two 12's only. My uncles crew of mini trucks was bumpin.
I love the fact you take me back to my younger years when I first got into car audio❤ I currently run Hifonics amps, they're still awesome😊
Happy New Year Big D !!🎉
I can't wait to see what you have in store for us this year!
I have a Series VII Zeus, VI Thor and Pluto and and a VI Odin and a 90s MTX Thunder Pro 2300 cheater amp (Big D tested one and it was crazy underrated) sitting in my garage, all serviced by Steve at ZED 2 years ago. My old F150 Harley Truck is all wired and ready but I found leaks in the rear window and now possibly the roof seams or sunroof track that are causing drips on the rear cab wall, so I'm on hold until I get that sorted out. Too many house and work projects going on so it's been back burnered, but I'm doing it as soon as I can!
I love seeing this amp brings back memories of wanting one and not getting one... just like today
At a small shop I worked in L.A we build a Blastrovan with all those RF amps @ 2:51. They powered a total of 30 speakers including tweeters,mids and woofers. We installed four 21" woofers custom made by RF, yeah that is right 21" woofers. The first day of testing the bass was so loud it rattled the windows of all the shops across street. I dont remember how much power we got, but it competed against a similar install built by RF and we won.
Earthquake 4300 still on my list of amps to own lol
The colossus amp was always on my radar in the 90's. Always seen them in magazines but not a single Hifonics dealer in my state.
In quegli anni installare simili ampli sulle auto era una cosa straordinaria. Le auto si prestavano moltissimo a configurazioni complesse di installazione hi-fi car.
Io stesso ero un'installatore professionista del settore, mi divertivo moltissimo nelle vw golf e nelle Audi station wagon. Che ricordi unici. Quando uscì hifonics colossus eravamo tutti in trepidazione per provarlo. Mamma mia un mostro di potenza oltre ad Orion. Straordinari❤
I had the m&m Godfather 15 inch. Four of them on the auto tech 7300. And it boomed huge. I had one of the first epicenters and that made a huge difference.
M&m we’re good subs. Not as popular as they should have been. Just like Petra’s prowler back in the day.
Enjoyed every second of this video!!!!! Ty so much.
PPI, Hifonics damn all we need are the strokers
My dad had a pair of just12" MTX in a custom ported box in back in 1990 running off of a colossus @4ohm bridged to single channel, he got those MTX's as demo units before they were released, I remember the struggle of him getting the box the right dimensions because the baskets and magnets were larger than the drivers and each speaker must have been 25lbs, something you just didn't see back then. That van also had a really nice set of Boston Acoustic 5" + 6x9's running off of a super clean 600W 150x4 the sounded way more powerful than it really should have been, bumped harder than any vehicle around, and we lived in an urban area, made guys with 4 x 15" Kicker and Pyle setups running multiple 1000W sub amps jealous.
That is amazing! Big D is the best in car audio!
Nice video. We appreciate the content!!
Man this brings back so many memories.
I was a regular at Speaker Works Tempe Az. and started messing with installs in 86', when I was 15 going on 16 years old.
Still gotta have a beat in the car.
I was always an Orion guy, but man the Art Series PPI amps were soooo nice.
Everyone was after the Colossus. But when the Orion HCCA amps
came out everything changed.
Crazy times.
Very cool content bud
I saw the Audio Art speakers in the beginning of the video. That's awesome to see. I have two 10" Audio Art woofers, and they sound awesome.
Dude, thanks so much for these. I started getting into car audio in 96 right as I turned a teenager so these are all awesome to see! My favorites during that time was the pioneer premier PRS x340 and prs x720. Always thought they were beautiful and very underrated!
Love it! Never sold Hifonics, but watching this makes me wish we'd have had one to play with 💪
Thanks for the review
I owned a series 6 colossus for ten years from 1989 to 1999. Mine also had the 2 separate (Zeus) boards. I ran mine bridged for many years.
Can you run a test on that amp at 1.3 ohm. I believe that is how they wired those amps up in that van with the 12 Godfather 15 inch.
In my opinion these older amps sound better because of other factors that we don't commonly take into consideration like damping factor and slew rate. Having said that to say I wish there was a way to demonstrate the combination of these things better than through just wattage output. You can have all the power in the world but if you have no control over the cone what comes out will not be the same
You are absolutely right. There is more to it than wattage. Sloppy power it's sloppy sound.
I lamented it back then and I do today: there should be an industrywide standard (ie, 20 Hz to 20 kHz (not necessary on sub amps, but should be full bandwidth for intended purpose) @ 12 V for all specs). That way, everyone is comparing like to like. What is the purpose of rating at 14.4 V when most alternators don't output that at idle? Ditto 13.8 V when that's not what an amp sees when the car isn't running. There can be worlds of difference in how two amps perform.
@@WSKRBSCT I had a '76 Trans Am and it output right at 13.8 volts. Back in the day any decent amp was rated at 13.8 volts. I've never owned a car that didn't output more than 13 volts while running even with A/C on. What cars are you buying with puny charging systems?
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt Read it again. I said alternators outputting 14.4 V at idle. I went on to say that an amp won't see 13.8 V when the car isn't running. Because of that, they should rate all amps at 12 V (really 12.6, I guess, since each cell is 2.1 V) as that is the minimum voltage of a healthy battery and one they almost certainly will see. That extra volt or two can make a big difference when it comes to what an amp outputs.
To add, I had PPI amps in my system. Those amps were rated 11 - 15 V. They had regulated power supplies.
Agree I always think 🤔 what did they do different my old school soundstream makes my subs pound beautiful. I don’t have to mess around with the eq compare to my brother skar audio amp witch is little bigger but try the same sub not the same results.
Even home audio receivers old school ones are the best for stereo listening
@@WSKRBSCT I don't need to read it again. Statistics show people listen to the car audio 99.5 % while it is running, therefore my statement. I too had PPI amps and consider them to be some of the best sounding amps of the day, much better than the overly warm non resolute Soundstream Reference amps of the same era.
I had a Series VII Europa and Hercules in my ‘88 Grand Prix SE back in ‘90. Absolutely loved those amplifiers and they had great sound quality. I went through 6 alternators while I had that system installed so they definitely pulled some current!
man I remember having the series 7 Hercules Vulcan atlas and even had a pluto at one time other then the connectors they were great until i got my hands on a 200 DSM and a 4080 DSM right after my MTX Thunder pro and Black gold days its clear i am an audio nut and still have a ref 500 and dsm 200 love the show keep it rockin
HNY Big D...Thanks for this because as the 1st installer for Columbus Car Audio from the 70's in these times it became apparent that size and power were King. My Amps were an EARTHQUAKE for LOWS running 3 Cerwin 12's while an ORION ran the HIGHS in the trunk of a 67 Mustang which used a Lincoln alternator...even found a pic!
Excellent video- Hifonics Series VIII was my favorite install! 87 Cutlass Boltar- Cupid-
A Colossus VIII is my Holly Grail!!!
Amazing memories ❤️
Happy 24 !!!!
Everything Zed made was killer power and sound incredible! The power had more balls than anything digital will ever dream of!
Back in 1988 or so had the Pyle Pro 10 box in the rear of an IROC-Z. Coustic 6x9s in the front and coustic amps and cross over. Alpine headunit. Was the Shit till the Rockford Punch Pro 12s showed up. Then there was this Isuzu Amigo running around with Kicker Comp 15s..damn!
You took me back to the good days, bro. 🤓
We had a Gen XI Colossus hanging over the register at the stereo shop I worked at back in the day. It was a great conversation piece because it was so freakin massive.
Jason Champion of Middlesex NC had a S10 With 16 Hifonics Subs in it with the Hifonics Ulysses Amps. It was so much Pressure. Hifonics was incredible back in the day.
I remember having a Buick regal behind me at a stop sign, back in the 80's, and when the beat dropped from mc breed, ain't no future in yo front in, it scared the shit out of me! 😂 I could feel that bass drum in my chest! Sound that would rival any new system now days. Also my neighbor's 15" magmas along with slaps, hit so hard you just didn't hear it, you felt it! It would make my voice break and sound like a sheep while trying to hold down a conversation! I miss those earthquake magmas!
This amp was one of the inspirations for me to get into car audio. My friend had a colossus and 2 Zeus on 4 lanzar 18" walled up in a low rider S10 blazer along with an isis running all the MB Quart speakers. Very loud and low. Won lots of competitions and could hear it coming about 2 miles away. Of course he had a high output alt and a row of about 6 deep cycle batteries across the back. I actually have the Callisto crossover that ran the whole system.
Great video as always, Big D!!!
The series 7 was so clean. I started my first system with Sony xr7280 pull out tape with mk2 xe8 eq and a majestic 175x2 amp running a set of MTX road thunder 2 10” full range boxes and it sound ok at lower volumes but when I tried to push them, the music blended together. Bass and treble just kind of blended.
So I called Aaron at CarFi in Everett wa where I bought everything and told him. He stopped by my work and we swapped in a series 7 Hifonics Thor, the difference was incredible. The bass would punch me in the chest. The Piezo horns while crisp and clear, would make your ears bleed. There was so many times I got out of my car and my ears would ring. I stepped up to the Sony pull out cd player with the sony tape drawer and it was amazing. I sent Bid D the tape drawer and he had it on the channel. I bought a series 8 Thor on the same set up and was advised it wasn’t as good as the 7 but I disagree. It was loud and clean and would go longer before it would overheat. lol, class AB life!
Another legend of a amp
I remember one of my employees had a single cab truck and added a sleeper . In that sleeper he added 2 18inch PRO PYLE subs and used the colossus amp . We worked at Coca-Cola warehouse and he vibrated everything in the BACK of the warehouse. Keep in mind the back was about 80 yards away .
Awesome video man. Love the documentary style
Always looked forward to April in the early 90s when the directory came out in Car Audio Magazine.
I still think the early 90s had some of the cleanest installs on demo vehicles. I love seeing all the gear from back in the day. Back then we had “sound offs” everywhere and there was always good turnouts.
My dream amp, I could never afford this beast, only 2 hifonics zeus which kicked hard and kept blowing my alternators lol
Almost 2$ a watt back then😮 I remember those precision amps also, they were beautiful amps
Great job Dereck really enjoy all your videos and especially the detailed information about all the old school history. That alone took a lot of time.
I remember all these amps. Love all this awesome content... This is when car audio was breaking the boundary s
In high-school my buddy had hifonics amps and crossovers and cerwin vega 12's. Then we built a box for two 15" lanzars that filled the truckbed. The speakers were at the tailgate with a plywood tunnel spanning the bed to the cab. Then we ported the cab into the bed and put a heavy homemade tonneau on the bed. Those lanzars would bounce a quarter a coupla inches or so off the tonneau cover. Now i don't hear so good 🤘😁🤘y'all have a badass day🤘
Edit: he had the hercules amp and i think the crossover was called aphrodite maybe
Edit: they were 18" lanzars, sorry, it's been awhile 🤘
The photo of a gentleman holding the colossus is Clive who used to work for advanced vehicle alarms in Deptford London in the 80s/90s
Boy, this takes me back. I did a customer car with a bunch of series VII, with Alpine head unit and Dynaudio, Scanspeak, & Eminence. It was an epic install for the day. Very clean.
Those capacitors dry out over time. I wonder how that factors into your measurements.
Thank you for the trip down memory lane.
Great way to start the new year, the only OG💯👍
I remember reading about these amos back in the day . An also knew that was bug power . If i recall there were only a few custom builds with them iv ever seen all custom with custom brackets for the multiple alternator set ups. Really cool stuff.
Big D it's like you said this is what we had back in the day and we made it work. This is a beautiful amp. When paired up with enough old school woofers they Bumped 🔊🔊🔊
In my new 89' 240sx coupe I ran a Zeus for the subs,Odin for everything else. 2 15 Lanzar free airs in the back seat in the trunk.Every nook and cranny sealed with silicone.Rubber blocks wedged and screwed in anywhere body panels needed reinforcing. Ribbon tweets on dash, 12" long horn tweets under dash I copycated from the black Buick regal champion of the day
Man i loved those magazines when I was a kid, I'd go food shopping every week with my mom, so i could soendnd the entire time at the magazine rack reading car audio mags. Yeah I was under ten all alone in a super market(different world then) Thanks Big D! These videos always bring back the excitement of being a kid looking at the epic drool wothy top of the line amps from that day
I remember back in 1990's (early) Heart made a subwoofer you could plug into the wall socket and it would not blow it. It had a giant magnet motor on the back of it and was made in Puyallup Washington. Looking up this subwoofer I cannot find much about it. I do remember seeing info about it back in the day and it was massive for the day. Be cool to see one again.
Looks like an audiopipe apcl 30001D inside. Cool stuff.. always informational.. great video as always. THANK YOU
boltar was one of my favorite amps back then.
I had the 2004 version of the colossus called hifonics colossus II by maxxsonics. A class D design with two 1600 watt circuit boards in side of it. 3200 watts rms, they was calling it a hybrid amp at the time. The cool thing about it was each 1600 watt circuit board was 1 ohm stable. So each sub could be wired down to 1 ohm for the full load.
I had a Zeus and Colossus about this time and remember they didn't cosmetically match. That probably suggests it was same as this (series 6). The Zeus had a thumping noise that was a ground plane problem between it and the EQX. I ran them for about a month. The shop said they'd take them back so I returned them. Changed to a Power 1000 / 300 combo and the difference was night and day. The Rockfords were soooo much more musical. The system eventually became a pair of Power 1000s and that was another level of crisp, responsive performance. Absolutely loved those Power 1000s. I never could figure out why the Hifonics stuff looked so good on paper but, didn't sound nearly as good. Didn't know if it was slew rate, preamp design, or some other intangible that couldn't be measured. Michael Jackson Earth Song could start at a comfortable level and be blowing you out of the car by the end. The Rockford dynamics are insane.
Awesome videos this week! Thank you Big D!
Great video. Awesome old school amplifier.
Excellent video Big D . What a gorgeous amp she is,I bet Sam would love to work on this beauty!!
It's a nice amplifier for an older amplifier.
Beautiful Amp
I remember drooling over those and was out of my budget though.
Average salaries were much lower back then.
If you knew someone, who had a Colossus, back then in 90,91, 92, he most definitely was a baller!!!
No doubt! Even the Zeus at around $900 was only a dream amp. My rich friends to me were balling with $500 amps like the Thor. I just feel blessed to have some of these now and to be able to show them off for us all to revisit the nostalgia!
Nice work man.
Love seeing the big old school amp test.
😎👍👍
I never appreciated zed amps back then. I had a car audio shop show me on a scope they didn't make rated at 4ohms. Of course they didnt carry zed so they had the perfect marketing plan. But today I love the pure art put into zed audio amps. For an electronics nerd, its fine art.
Went to the UK motor show in 1985 Birmingham NEC building. Pioneer were demonstrating there new'Head Unit' with wait for it....4x 25w per ch. Spks mounted in a big wall playing Dire Straits Money 4Nothing. The crowd were blown away...we'll not quite😉
My first year at CES was in 1989. I so wish I would have took photos back then.
Nice. I sold Car Audio around 94-96. Art, PPI, Phoenix Gold, lots of good stuff. The Phoenix Gold Frank AMP'N Stein was the one we were all competing to sell.
I had the Hifonics Zeus. They were decent amps. Honestly all the hype about THD and other stats rarely translated into anything perceivable; and trust me I A/B'ed a LOT of amps, speakers, receivers, etc. You know back them Monster Cable was selling directional speaker wire? Heck , maybe they still do. If we hooked them up backwards, you would have to shake all the electrons back in place ...
That's nice that new amplifiers are more affordable.
I had a Cupid and I loved it.
Cheers! See you in this new year buddy
The old bass was something different. I remember the bass hitting harder and lower with a lot less power. Most of us never thought of putting the amount out power that we use now in a car system back in the 80s and 90s.
Great video, love the history explained. This is why you are the goat!
*0:29** I had those CV's they were awesome and dank. Placed first at 157db with those and 4 Orion 15s. Ran HiFonics series VIIs. A Zeus, and an Aphrodite. I still have my Ser VIIs because they are classics.*
I coveted these amps back in the day. This one was just too out of reach to worry about, but the "smaller" HiFonics were on my wish list, along with that Linear Power Servo sub system
That is the issue of Auto Sound & Security that got me into car audio I've wanted an Astro ever since. I was 10 I bought an issue of Auto Sound & Security an issue of Lowrider and an issue of Hot Rod and I have been into hot rods, lowriders, and car audio ever since.
Thanks Big D. Before my time but not by a whole bunch. Fun stuff
@0:24 - Vanilla Ice just mentioned in a video that Ice Ice the song specifically mentioned "Vega" subs and that many people get the lyrics wrong and say "Vegas.(as in the place)" He did a small aside about the " Vegas' " being the sub of choice back when he was coming up.
Earthquake San Francisco series subs and amps were the true monsters of bass in the 90s. Their newer subs the Holee S are absolutely insane. The sound they make is just something different from everything else.
tell me about it... i just scored a 15 and a 12 HoleeS, my back has filed an official complain with my common sense side of my brain
i have the ppi art series amps A300 and A600. i bought them in the early 90"s. they both worked when i took them out. for there size was real clean sounding and powerful. id like to have them gone through and checked. great AB amps
Back in 90 I was told that hifonics was by Rockford fosgate because an engineer left and started hifinics. Back then hifonics soundstream and most of what is like by zed audio was super cheap to buy if you owned a shop. The cost was regularly 60% of what brands like mtx Rockford fosgate and pioneer.
Car audio employees and engineers all seemed to work for one another back and forth. Good amp designers was always being hired back and forth to do projects for different company's. Which is not a bad thing. It's a pretty specialized field and the guys with talent went all over