Should Linux be more user friendly?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.พ. 2025
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Linux user of 15+ years here, and you're absolutely on the nose Linus. The only reason I can fly through the terminal and a tiling window manager in Arch is because I suffered and struggled all those years to learn how every single little piece worked and how they all interact, and it's a level of understanding that's completely unreasonable for the average user to grasp. If Linux ever wants to take the desktop, then it needs to be used in a distro that is incredibly cohesive, simple to use, and easy to understand.
I agree 100% and I'm an arch user since 2004.
For all of the disadvantages of Windows, it is very easy to use for people with minimal knowledge. That's what Linux needs - a UX that doesn't take research to use.
True, I have been using linux for 4 years and it is user friendly enough for me to hop on it but I still can't recommend it to my non techie friends.
Seems like a pipe dream but as a windows user interested in Linux, id love for this to be a thing, we need actual competition.
13+ years here, I could do as well if I really want to but it's not fun wasting my free time like that.
When talking to other long teem users about these issues however, they are mostly like F- OFF!! and tell me to better use Windows.
While the latter point is valid under these circumstances it's the exact opposite of what would push the Linux desktop.
There are 14 different "user friendly" flavors of linux, but none of them are easy to use and glitch free without using the command line. What we really need to do is get to work and create a flavor of linux that's truly a noob friendly windows replacement.
2 years of hard work later:
There are 15 different "user friendly" flavors of linux...
I think you meant to write "There are 18 different 'user friendly' flavors of Linux..." because the 15th flavor forked into 3 different versions because of creative differences between the core team.
xkcd reference lol
something something relevant xkcd
I like the linux as it is, and think it's great. Where I struggle is the support in the forums. Forums are beefy, meaning they are overwhelming. The solution is not a more user-friendly system , the solution is a more user-friendly "learning environment".
@@tsmspace I think the support forums are overwhelming because there are a lot of discussions about fixing or optimizing a certain aspect of the system. In other words, it usually means that the system itself isn't as user-friendly as others (those who are either not that literate in terms of tech or just don't have extra time to tinker or fix their system) may think. If the system is user-friendly in the first place, the support forums wouldn't be as beefy and overwhelming in the first place. I do think though that this suggestion must be directed specifically towards distros that are aimed to be a beginner user's "gateway" to Linux. We cannot totally get rid of directly using the terminal in favor of the GUI, but at least minimize it such that it will not be an overwhelming shock to a beginner who are surely gonna encounter some hiccups in his system. That way, many more people will see how Linux (at least a number of its distros) isn't necessarily too technical to use.
Pop OS is so appealing because it seems to be more user friendly and just works. I love Linux but I’m tired of spending 2 hours after a full day of programming tinkering on something that should just work. Linux community is great when things work, but often things that should just work do not
I love KDE but wish Dolphin was more intuitive over GUI, I've had the same issue with attempting to click-drag to unzip to a different folder. Bus something like that was already feasible with Gnome... So....?
@@Scout339th I hear this a lot about dolphin. I am starting to believe all the praise I used to hear about it was for Plasma indirectly. Perhaps people need to switch file managers if they truly enjoy plasma as it sounds like Dolphin is always the biggest let down and those that actually DO praise it are praising the wrong thing.
What are you having problem with?
@@rimilmurmu10 my biggest issues was hardware, and or software compatibility. Software using different libraries that don’t exist unless you go through the archives and download with a package manager because the software isn’t fully up to date. I found that to be the most common issue. That being said I have tried Linux mint, Ubuntu, centos, and arch. I usually try once a year to see if Linux will work for me and my setup given I hear it’s better for programming. But every year I find it to be a pain and not worth the pain compared to Windows. I will try again once proton is fully out though and give it another shot like I do every year 😂
Maybe its because there is hardware company behind PopOs?
"I think package managers are too confusing for newbies as it differs from distros to distros. Let's make a new packaging system that works regardless of what distro you're running to make it less confusing"
(Few years later)
"Hi, what version of firefox do you want to install? Normal, snaps, flatpak or appimages?"
I think I recognize some of those from Pokemon
Flatpaks every time. It updates itself (which appimages can't), and it's controlled by Mozilla completely (which snaps aren't), which makes it vanilla Firefox.
@Vinícius Felipe Posselt I've never had a problem with Flatpak Steam and I use those...
@@white-bunny Mozilla controls flatpak?? Thats a shame, guess I'll boycott flatpak aswell. I'll try snap instead
THIS
most users just want to download their software, install it and use it, but with Linux they have to learn the difference between all this methods of installing a package if they want to use any software
The command line being able to do something just means that the system can indeed do it.
There are no excuses for a DE not mapping a mouse drag event to one of these commands, but the next argument is always "well go write it then!" and then everything just grinds to a halt.
and even if they do write it, most (if not all) tutorials on the internet will not use this GUI method to fix something
Yeah you know I think that Linux is great analogy with democracy. U will blame politician(developers) that they will do their job for money and request money from you, but second you are given freedom to do something yourself, answer is "meh, too much work" or "I am not skilled enough"
But that is the nature of the beast. As mentioned by Linus, developing it costs money (UX Research as well as developer time). At the end of the day either there is a company paying devs to "map mouse drag to a command" or someone who really wants to "map mouse drag to a command" is doing it on their free (as in no cost) time. But if that person knows the command line they most likely won't spend time trying to use the mouse in to being with.
@@pavellisec477 you know, that's because it IS a democracy
@@SorogonHD No. It's anarchy.
What's really frustrating about the linux gaming/average user experience is the "well theres not enough people using it to justify doing _______" but you'll never get enough people using it until developers do that thing. Its a catch-22 and I hate it because Id much rather using Linux than Windows for everything, but I just can't effectively game on it.
It won't take long for a new user even more so a gamer to find something that just doesn't work and will require hours of research i know it took me only 4 hours with my DAC
That's precisely why I'm cautiously excited for Steam Deck.
This is it right here. I'm fortunate in that I'm not a huge gamer, but only play sometimes, and only play games that are compatible natively or through Wine/Valve Proton.
Yup, same for me with music. I've tried DAWs and they aren't as polished or feel as great to use as the ones I've used on Windows and audio sucks to handle in general for recording (even on the distros that are made for music)
@@RAndrewNeal so... an overwhelming majority of games ?
I actually _do_ think the 'focus group' problem is solvable. Because ultimately this isn't so much a resources problem as it is a community problem - new users are considered 'noobs' and 'they just have to learn how it works'. If it became culturally acceptable in the community to actually *listen* to new users and take their experiences seriously, take them as indicators on what needs to be fixed, then there would already be a wealth of data on how to improve UX! The feedback is already there, it's just being ignored.
This is a major benefit that Linux has due to being a community rather than a company; it's easy to solicit feedback from new users, as they are much more likely to be willing to volunteer their time to help a community project than to do a corporation's job for them. But the community as a whole desperately needs to learn to _use_ this benefit, instead of insisting that people's experiences are a personal failing and they just need to learn the system better.
@@Thomas12357 Your attitude is _precisely_ what is wrong with the Linux community.
@@Thomas12357 What's particularly amusing is how confidently you give a response without any understanding of what was being talked about. Leaving you as the person giving a great example of dunning-kruger from yourself.
@@Thomas12357 the fact that they don’t know what they’re doing is the entire point... that’s the only reason you *should* listen to them for improvement. How are you supposed to know what’s confusing and difficult to do as a new user if you already know all the tips and tricks to using the distro?
The point isn’t to appeal to veterans by making them feel smart, it’s to get more people interested in linux so the community can grow and sustain itself.
@@Thomas12357 and thus linux is only used by a niche community of nerds and will never be adopted by more people
@@Thomas12357 the irony of that statement is this is exactly how Linux power users approach Windows, they don't take the time to understand it, then say they prefer Linux because they don't understand Windows.
Command line reminds me of something that happened with my Mom and some of friends back around the mid 90s. The local college advertised a "learning to use the computer" class that was allegedly aimed at seniors wanting to learn to use a PC. So Mom and several friends signed up. They went to class, the instructor started the class off using the DOS command line. I don't think any of the ladies attended more than 2 classes before they bailed. Mom was so turned off she wouldn't even try Windows when I told her that a consumer class should have started with it. I suspect you put anyone on a Linux machine that does not have a computer background and is not an enthusiast, and they're not provided an easy-to-use, intuitive GUI, results would end up much the same.
you're right for the average user, but i even use the command line *in windows* , lol
there are some rare / exotic tasks where it really is the only logic solution.
Your mom should use windows leave linux to the Linux uses.
@@EasyGameEh But is the settings panel the same (or, ideally only different in that it unified settings and control panel)?
@@marcobonera838 I do use the windows command line every once in a while but the important thing is that I've never had to use it to get my VR games working whereas every guide I've found for getting VR working has a LOT of command line usage and all sorts of other shit.
Even Torvalds said it himself: Linux on the desktop has never seen as much success as Windows and even Mac. Linux to me has always felt like the next step into the computer nerd hole. If you really like computers, it’s great. If you like what computers can do, then it’s best to stay away from it, as you’ll spend more time getting something working than seeing it work the first time. Until there can be a dialog box for *almost* every setting possible, Linux can never throw hands with Windows in terms of being user friendly.
You're confusing user friendly with ignorance friendly. Of course you're not going to be able to do anything if you're entirely unwilling to learn.
@@daniellundberg2875 So, Linux should be as non-intuitive as possible so you can feel good about yourself for having learned it. Gotcha.
@@daniellundberg2875 If Linux wants to be mainstream, it shouldn't be a massive rabbit hole to learn.
@@sethadkins546 It's not. And the amount of system configuration, and system maintenance tasks that needs to be done are heavily exaggerated by people who have never even used linux. And it's not the end of the world if you need to read a short article and edit a config with nano the first time you start a service.
@@anonymousalexander6005 I'd like to not need a phone, I miss the days before smartphones. Also tf are you on about? How the fuck did you get that from what I wrote?
Valve might create a new user friendly linux ecosystem. Thats my hope. That Valves work translates to a sea change in linux ease of use.
The dedication of valve has at least somewhat broke the 'chicken or egg' problem that has plagued linux for so long. Why develop/make your programs/games compatible with linux if there is no users, but also why use linux if there's almost no compatible/well working games/programs on linux?
At least valve throwing a bunch of money and effort in it, solves the latter half of the chicken egg problem, thus enticing more people to try it out (especially if they might buy the steam deck and want a similar experience on desktop).
The DRM that’s used with Siege has been a long-standing thorn for Linux gamers
They have a better DRM than they do anticheat, sad!
How is that a linux issue? Games not working on linux because the devs dont want to make them work on linux is a non linux issue lol its a developers issue.
@@MathiewMay I’m just pointing it out as a reason why they would have seen Siege to have almost no Linux users
@@MathiewMay The devs won't develop for it because it sucks too much for normal people to use
@gabrielzschmitz My microwave also does not handle Siege DRM well. It is an issue of using my microwave, right?
I've been on my own Linux experience recently, and to be fair I've found that Distro and DE(plus Extensions) *REALLY* matter when it comes to how user friendly it is fro you. I've tried KDE Plasma, XFCE, Gnome...I've tried Zorin, Manjaro, Fedora, Ubuntu and POP. In the end I settled for POP with a bunch of extensions, as it gave me the easiest and simpliest user experience.
This gave me the easy of use and simple setup I wanted, but started learning the command line at my own pace, without it being a common fallback.
i was sad to hear that Linus went Manjaro as it's more cutting redge than traditional Debian family distro's and I knew he would find it more difficult.
The best advantage of Linux is also the hardest thing about Linux,, it's powerful and can do anything...you have to do a lot of experimenting to find what is right for you.
Yea im literally 0 surprised that Linus has loads of problems with Manjaro. Ive got no idea why people praise Manjaro so much. It has been a broken piece of shit every single time Ive tried it.
Linus runs cutting edge hardware, an older kernel would possibly not even boot on his computer - or at least not support 80% of his stuff
Linus should have gone with fedora/endeavour/ pop rather than manjaro, those are imo very very stable and refined than manjaro especially fedora
@@SankoshSaha_01 Fedora is my go-to recommendation for new linux users. It's very stable and has great support- all while still being closer to the bleeding edge than most debian-based distros
@@acy48 because the people who have no problems with it shout the loudest, and more people who have issues will complain about it, hence the polarising opinion of it. Hell, it has a more polarising opinion than the "noob sellout" distros like Ubuntu and Mint.
I’m not any sort of modern gamer, but I remember loading games via a command line way back when:
cd C:\DOOM
DOOM.EXE
Don't forget to load those drivers into high memory.
wait, youre not supposed to do that?
You didn't even need drivers, at least for creative cards. Just set the blaster variables and you're off to the horses
I used Linux as my primary machine and family machine for quite a few years. This was around 20 years ago and it worked out fine for what I needed. Not perfect but good enough. I made the decision that gaming would be done on my console(s) and that was because of the hassle I had getting games to work in Microsoft Windows. I remember when Apple released OSX and all us LInux guys sat back and thought.... "Man they did it". They created a Linux (Free BSD, so similar) and got the front end near perfect. So it CAN be done, but in my opinion it needs a Company dedicated to help drive it forward. I would argue that the Google Chromebook is somewhat of an example of a good Linux desktop. One could also argue that Android OS is also an example of a successful linux desktop.
Re Lutris user reports: I'm not sure about the accuracy of those. I don't have a Lutris account, and I use Lutris, so I'm not sure if I get counted. Since you don't need to make an account to go use Lutris, it's very possible that other people do this, and it might mess up stats.
Exactly. Most Linux gamers use Lutris but there's not much reason to make an account so only a few ever do.
I didn't even know you could connect your lutris client with an account
lutris is not a subscription-based app, but rather, it is an app that ports windows apps into linux, just like wine.
My biggest issue with bias is the grandma test. My grandma is doing fine on Linux mint. BUT, this video has me rethinking. I installed Chrome for her (per her request, I know. I know.) and her entire routine revolves around Facebook, and some Google searches.
That's it. Her HP printer is linux friendly so I've had no troubleshooting nightmares on that end. But I've never had her use anything other than her chrome shortcut on the desktop.
"Technically" this passes the grandma test, as I've bragged about in the past. But I'm realizing that the Grandma test really needs to be more than "can she use facebook"
Except that's exactly correct for a grandma test. Linux is fine for normal computer users because they either don't play games are just play stuff through steam, which works very well through Linux. Linus has the most esoteric computer setup in the world and wants power user features but also doesn't want to use the tools that make that stuff work, ignoring how much of it DID magically work (you most likely didn't need your Linux device driver cd for anything)
That's the point. The average user and I've been screaming this is not a gamer. We the gamers are a minority. A growing minority yes, but think of soccer mom Karen and car tinkerer Joe, and office Bob. Alot of people aren't gamers. The ones of those that might game probably would be happy with just Steam. Even this though should get better in the near future.
Well Chrome passed that test but you had to install it for her...
The fact that you had to install chrome *for her* proves that it's not user friendly enough.
@@0M9H4X_Neckbeard I mean my mom would have no idea what to do to install Chrome on either Windows or Linux because she doesn't use computers except when she has to. Does that mean Windows isn't user friendly enough? There are plenty of computer users that don't know and don't care how to learn to do basic tasks. It's why IE has been so popular since forever because the icon is just already there. The point is that to many people there's very little difference in OSes for the basic tasks they do.
Besides for most distros, installing a piece of software is trivial once you know how it's done, it's just different than it is in windows. People don't complain about how difficult it is to install stuff in Android or iOS because there's an app store, rather than having to go to a website, download an installer, and run it.
Wouldn't the majority of this be fixed not from a distro specifically, but for a DE (Desktop environment)? Sounds like a lot of the issues he's talking about is specifically for the GUI experience. [Today]
Yes, and no. Distros can't agree with a common ground user experience
Yea I think manjaro kde and mint are both a poor choice for this myself. A lot of their daily driver complaints are fixed in any other de that isn’t kde.
I may be a bit of a gnome fan but I also like pantheon. Both make so much more sense to me than KDE.
@@postnick I LOVE the customization of KDE, and they are constantly improving it, but man I want dolphin to just DO what I want lol.
@@Scout339th gnome Shell can be customized a lot and looks beautiful too
@@postnick at first I was enchanted by the potential of customization in kde but after using kde for a few months, I started appreciating gnome.
This is the way i see it, i dont think many people want to LEARN an operating system. An OS, for most people, is just something they HAVE to use, to get to the thing theyre trying to do. e.g. play a game, browse the web. so the moment you need to LEARN something - it means that a hurdle has came up - and you need to understand/learn to how to get past it. when i use windows, i dont actually care about windows OS at all - i just want to go in, and click and start my game or software im there to use. some people love their OS - but i feel for mass market, its just a means to an end.
Very true, you don't care when you want to game what its running on under the hood, just as long as it works. But at some point everyone has to learn how to use the OS, the only reason M$ is so popular is not because its better (of the big 3 for my money it is by far the worst - and I really can't operate a Mac, i just see how good it could be if I learnt how to deal with it, and would pay the Apple tax on the hardware) but because you almost can't get away from it - thanks to M$ business practices, your PC probably shipped with it, your School, Office are using it - so you learnt it as you had very little choice in the matter.
Would love to see a series with Anthony doing "Intro to Linux Command Line" informational videos.
Same
@Mohammad Golam Azim I'd assume bash, since it is most common, and I doubt differences will be significant enough outside scripts, in which you set interpreter yourself anyway
Would probably be a good idea, but I wonder if there's a point to it, it seems that there are those that can use the cli and those that think an OS is broken if you ever have to open a terminal.
@Mohammad Golam Azim They all *mostly* work the same
Yeah, intro to working with the command line would probably focus on utilities used in a terminal, rather than scripting, which is where the shells start to diverge more
If Linux ever becomes mainstream it's because OEMs preinstall it on their hardware - the mainstream user isn't going to install an OS...
well said, and that wont happen until command line is not requirement of daily driving linux :D ( which seems to be hard to understand for people who get erect from opening terminal)
@@Trapster1000 it's really not though unless you have to install a problem that you can't find in the package manager for some reason and even then it's just copy and paste 3 commands not hard.
@@someguy4853 oh I know. I have tried different distros in last 10-15 years. it's all fun and games untill you get older and just can't take the nonsense and want basic things done when you need them to be done. Devil is in the details, thats the problem
@@Trapster1000 I never really have those problems if anything I have more problems in Windows but what ever
@@someguy4853 Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on linux. Last time I used KDE (couple years ago?) was in my experience the best looking & feeling DE I have used (when it was working as intended). I'm just saying its a very hard sell to general user as long as there is a weird terminal fetish going around
Pop OS is a distro with a good GUI, and given that system 76 is investing not just in hardware but also on software/OS side of things with Pop, it's sure that is going to improve in user accessibility
How is Pop different from other distros that use stock GNOME3 (or soon 40)?
Yeah... If anything Fedora with vanilla gnome seems easier.
@@MegaManNeo It’s more like a “best of gnome”- they install a different dock, manage their workspaces in a different kind of way, etc.
@@MegaManNeo they run a variant called Cosmic, there's a full breakdown on their blog.
@@ariane9 yeah quite surprised they didn't go with fedora with vanilla gnome
Yes the answer is yes
Ubuntu is pretty easy for a noob though. My mom used pop os laptop for a month and last time she used windows on a regular basis was like Widnows XP era
The thing is most Linux users Don't care about that, i agree but you can't ask people to develop thibgs for free, they are allowed to develop whatever they want, and if they don't want to spend time on user interface, it's their right. I still think it's a bad thing though
Yes! I can handle the cmd line pretty well but having user friendly guis doesn’t hurt anyone
Can it be? yeah. It must be? no. It should be? of course!
Not really
You can do most noob level actions from the GUI, but tutorials are almost always done through the CLI because different distros have different menus.
Exactly. Like if I wanted to I could go full GUI if I wanted to and I did not need to develop. Like its possible. But like why should guides have to have multiple different instructions for multiple De's with different ways of doing something when the commands are the same. Like once people get over the hump its not scary and they are copying and pasting and learning as you go
Most lol ok
Because if you were to record a tutorial for every DE and Distribution and every combination of those two you would have 30 separate videos
"most" you said it. This is the problem with Windows 10 new Settings vs Control Panel, is bad design, lazy and is annoying. Everything should be there
@@ErimlRGG i like the old control panel way better
I actually really appreciate that you’re doing this series and I’m looking forward to the videos. Attention like this is part of what Linux needs to become more user friendly.
Edit: not just attention, but in depth feedback from a UX perspective, which is what I find most valuable about what you’re doing
Linux doesn't need to become more user friendly, people need to change there additude about Linux. People complain about Linux being hard but it's really not it's just different people don't make. Also Linus is litaraly asking for Linux to spy on its users witch goes against the core philosophy of gnu/linux
@@raynebenson9040 Linux *does* need to become more user friendly. Or at least have a distro out there more suitable for new users. Even on my Ubuntu Gnome installation, I've had quite a few issues and have required the terminal on multiple occasions. I am fine with that as I understand the terminal and enjoy the occasional tinkering.
If I was one of my less tech-savvy family members who has no idea what the terminal even is then there's going to be problems. Windows lets you just muddle your way through with enough tooltips, clear icons and official help in easy to read documentation that it is good for new users. It's also much harder to break the system by accident.
Linux gives the end user control - whether they understand what they're doing or not. Sometimes you just need to stop people from making an uninformed decision.
@@stephen9894 no it really doesn't most of the time you can get by without using the terminal. Also Linus recommend a solution that literally goes against the philosophy of Linux in the first place.
@@raynebenson9040 This is EXACTLY the kind of gatekeeping everyone is talking about that is preventing the average user from using Linux and the OS going mainstream.
@@Cyber_Akuma no it's not, Linux is a free and open source operating system the reason I use it is to avoid proprietary software. It's not gate keeping to say that spying on me is bad, I'm not just saying get good I'm saying expect a different experience when you use a different operating system. If I used Mac os or Windows I wouldn't bitch about the experience being different.
Firstly, this whole "linux isn't for everyone" or "we don't want you using linux anyway!" Is complete bullshit. The reason why Linus is making these videos is because, so many people argue for Linux and tell everyone to switch to it. Maybe "you" didn't say those things, but many other people did.
"Why didn't you use a different distro? You should've used a better one!" A lot of the problems that he's stating in these videos are common problems across a LOT of distros. Plus what you are asking is ridiculous. Uninstall and reinstall multiple distros and extensively test every single one of them until you find the one that you like? Are you nuts? Who the hell has the time for that?
As for people who are defending the terminal. A lot of people are saying "I use the terminal." That's great for you, but there is no way that you could possibly expect everyone to switch from a gui to a terminal. Everything that consumers use today is dependent upon GUI's. If everyone preferred terminals, then we would've never needed GUI's in the first place right?
Another thing I think you need to think about is what are you using linux for? Is it for a server? To program? Testing out bugs on something? Well most people aren't going to use linux for those reasons. Most consumers use their devices for media. That includes high end video games, music, movies, 3D modeling, Art and many other things. They expect them to work right out of the box without any fiddling around. I should be able to download files directly from a website and install them, or be given a GUI with updated apps that allow you to download and install them without having to do anything else. "You CAN do those things" you say. Yeah, sure if the developers actually keep up on these things. Usually they get abandoned, never to be updated again.
I could go on and on, but here is my opinion on Linux-Unix operating systems after switching back and fourth for 10 years now. We need a Linux distro that we can all agree on as the staple operating system for everyone to use. That operating system needs to expect anyone to use it, even people who are technically challenged. No terminals, no editing files within the operating system, no programming, and a standardized method to download and install ANY program. The way to download and install programs needs to always stay consistent forever. There needs to be an easy, straight out of the box method for developers. With enough time and advertising to users, I expect people to try it out. With enough people using it, companies would take more of an interest and develop better programs for it.
Edit: I often see people saying something along the lines of "windows users trying to force Linux to be like windows." Which isn't true. Android is the most common example today of an operating system inspired by Linux-Unix based operating systems that millions of people use every day. It doesn't have everyone typing "sudo apt-get install" just to download flappy bird. Why is it ONLY desktop Linux operating systems that require such things?
Yeah, I had a experience while installing python in linux in custom location, I had use multiple command line argument to make, build, etc to install it while in windows it was just download the exe file and install it whatever locations I wanted
Some other BS gatekeeping snobs say about this specific issue are "wIndOze users just don't want to learn something new or different" and "Linux doesn't need to be user-friendly." It's honestly frustrating, considering that Linux has great potential to be a mainstream OS that can absolutely give Windows a run for its money. What's even funnier is that some people saying these kinds of BS are also ones complaining about how few people use Linux and how hardware and software support for Linux is still relatively behind Windows.
Well to the point of distros, you essentially say that every distro has to be beginner friendly - that's just not gone happen. Linus picked Manjaro because he wanted a glimps at the Arch meme.
@@srntnjl523 The argument being made is that many Window's users expect Linux to be "just like Windows". Many of the complaints that have been raised throughout this entire series both by Linus and by the comment section have been more often than not Windows users trying to do things on Linux the Windows Way. Not saying this is every issue as Linux does still have less hardware and software support, just by nature of its marketshare, but a lot of the frustrations caused are just growing pains with the system.
@@TheKeksadler ' The argument being made is that many Window's users expect Linux to be "just like Windows" '
There's a reason for that, and it's not just familiarity. Having a GUI that gives a user access to any configuration feature, even if it takes a while to find, is preferable to having to memorize a lot of commands and switches from a documentation that may not exist outside the CLI said user does not know how to use in the first place.
Hey Linus! Idea for a video... invite some randoms into the studio and bring some devs from different distros to perform this kind of experiment. Could be an interesting video! This way you would actually be investing in Linux (desktop/distros) and helping the devs to solve the main problems you are experiencing in Linux!
Looking forward for the full video on Linux!
eh...most devs will just tell him to buck up and use the command line...which is the entire problem.
This.
@@isaackvasager9957 except thats not true as GNOME and KDE both work on GUI development and Ubuntu, Pop and Mint all claim to care about ease of use.
@@notusingmyrealnamegoogle6232 they can claim that all they want...why is it that when I test drive Linux every year it still sucks? Obviously they aren't getting it done.
@@isaackvasager9957 you can say maybe they aren’t meeting your standards for it but you can’t say the devs devoting their time to developing GUIs don’t care about GUIs and are telling people not to use them. Some the community is like that but it’s not the devs putting their own time and effort into improving it.
I've daily driven PopOS in the past, and as a techy guy, I was mostly fine. But as someone who has worked on PCs for clients/customers/friends/family, I know that very few of them would either a) get through problems or b) be willing to go through those problems to be on another OS, rather than just doing what they're used to. I stopped daily driving PopOS due to Shadowplay and AMD Relive not being available on Linux (which I'm extremely dependent on both for my main channel and the volunteering work I do). When they do I'll probably go back and dual boot when needed like I did before,
I'm a big fan of these videos so far, despite some of the diehard linux community complaining, it ultimately helps Linux out as a whole on the desktop space. I haven't seen any prominent figure talk about Linux without being experienced in it already, and talking about all these issues should at least smooth out some of barriers that have existed by removing hurdles/streamlining to create a better user experience for more "average" users.
Would be great to have some more user friendly distros, yes. Meanwhile other distros can exist for people who are used to different things, like command line.
My exact thought.
Why not just both ?
@@Kynatosh thats what hes saying
Rather than have more user friendly distros it'd be better if the Linux community worked on the ones that exist.
Mint is easy to install and set up but God are so many things broken, like broken on a software level.
It's OK to have a command line in your OS shell, just like Windows has one, but the issue with Linux is that the moment you utter "You need to run this .sh script from the terminal to install the app" (actual thing I had to do to install the Arduino IDE) you lose 95% of the userbase. I think someone in the other video mention this, they called it the "grandma principle": if grandma can't do it, the OS shell isn't good enough.
Anyone else read the title as "Should Linus be more user friendly?"
No.
And " why did Linus pick a distro that ISNT designed (at least as a first priority) for Linux noobs?
@@motoryzen You attack a straw man. Linus talked about how he picked the distro. He tried Google search for just what you said and got contradicting (sometimes self-contradicting!) results. He then consulted forums, and among some very rude responces picked the actual recommendation.
Again, it's the community own's fault. Linux community sux.
@@Lighthouse_out_of_order doing s simple search of " beginner friendly Linux operating system " would have shown in easily the first 4 links and at the.top within the top 4 or 5 of EVERY Linux distribution list involving THAT search....would have included Linux Mint. You're welcome.. It's not like that is hidden information. Manjaro is NOT a Linux beginner friendly distro. Linus obviously EITHER... DIDNT do such s simple search...OR he did notice what I'm talking about..and choose to do something different instead. *shrugs*
Either way.. Nothing you have said to me defeats the fact based point I made.
@@motoryzen Again - watch LTT (I think it was a WANshow) where Linus complains about this issue.
The " simple search of " beginner friendly Linux operating system " would have shown in easily the first 4 links and at the.top" is really irrelevant. No sane human will choose an OS to invest tonnes of time on by just taking this list. Without proper cons/pros details it's meaningless.
Linux community is mainly composed of two sets: IT pros that utilize servers (where Linux excels) and people that have very big deficit in understanding what "a normal human being" stands for. Toxic answers, blaming the users or just the very counter-helpful digressing a question/problem thread to irrelevant side channels or just gloating.
The Linux community is user-hostile. Linux is user-hostile. Any man that says "Linux is ripe as desktop environment" either doesn't comprehends what humans are or is just very stupid.
I've enjoyed seeing your experience with this process. I've installed multiple versions of Linux over the past 15ish years. While it's been fun to explore and play with for a few months, I've never had the stamina to force it to be an everyday operating system. I feel like I'm the next level of user that the Linux community needs to convert. I like the idea of Linux, I'm a Windows user because some of my tools are Windows only. I would change if it would work without me having to be a programmer.
As a Linux user myself (Mint): yes, yes and yes!
While bash is cool and powerful, telling user to use it, should be a option only if your system has an unsolveable problem. For daily use, it should not make you to use it.
BTW, KDE did this user research at least once, and it improved a lot. Maybe they need to keep doing that each 6 months or so.
You tell a user to use it because no matter what they user has done to their system, or what distro they were running, the terminal leads them to a certain solution - the enormous webpage full of screenshots to guide you through a GUI menu would have to be done 60million times to actually be correct for everyone, and would therefore most likely be the wrong one you looked at anyway...
You don't have to use a terminal at all, at least in most desktop oriented Linux, you just need to actually learn how to use your flavour of choices GUI if that is really what you want to do (perhaps needing a terminal for initial setup of something if the defaults don't work for you)...
why tough ? what's so bad about bash ?
Why is it so horrible for people to use the terminal? Is it that hard to do copy+paste?
@@Henrik_Holst I think for people who aren't used to it, terminals are pretty scary and new for them - it is a blank canvas waiting for you to type exactly the right thing with less context of where you are in the process of carrying out a task (for example, overlaid windows generally show how you got somewhere and the order of operations). Also the fact that typing something wrong may spit out an unexpected error message or warning that may completely confuse less experienced users or quietly break something in the background that then needs to be fixed is not helpful.
Like it or not, people are used to buttons, lights and text boxes from just about every other device (phones, clock radios, temperature sensors, tv remotes, microwave ovens...), so making computer menus and interfaces mirror existing everyday objects greatly reduces the learning curve and makes stuff a little more intuative.
I use a terminal pretty much every day, but I wouldn't expect family members who mainly use the web browser and office software and have several decades of experience with GUIs to be too excited about using a terminal if there was a graphical option instead. (Having said that, if anything breaks or something complex needs to be done, I generally get called in and do use the terminal, possibly over zoom or teamviewer).
@@jg374 Yeah that makes sense, then back in the day ms-dos apparently was good enough for every one and that is one horrible environment :)
But I do think that Linus and his friend are exaggerating the need for the terminal, to take their example of "I've been working all day and just want to go home and enjoy a game and not wanting to have to perform some strange troubleshooting in the terminal" the normal case for 99.99% of people is just that, aka they come home and start a game.
My wife and my daughter uses Ubuntu on their laptops, they have never ever in their life opened the terminal and I've only touched their machines back when I installed them.
And lets be frank, most Windows users does not fix their own machines, they call some of their techier friends to help them out.
But yes if one expects Linux to be "WIndows but better" then one is in for a huge disappointment, had they simply come with the mindset that it's a completely different system that works in a completely different way then perhaps the experience would have been smoother.
Linux as a whole has improved a lot in recent years. IMO Linux community as a whole isn't completely at fault for the troubles of using it for Gaming and everyday use. They are constantly fighting a battle of manufacturers crippling drivers and making things worse for Linux to protect their enterprise business for their products for datacenter use. Then you get into all the applications that were never written to run natively only linux games etc and DRM and all the other hoops that are being jumped through. This is honestly a huge hurdle for Linux to overcome my hope is that manufactures start to support linux drivers natively rather than actively trying to cripple them and also software devs start to develop to run on Linux as well.
Yup, exactly.
If it weren't for a) Nvidias drivers and b) some stupid software/games not being properly supported (which is mostly the manufacturers fault) you wouldn't have to touch the CLI even once as a 'normal' user.
And that's where the majority of the complaints should be directed at: Nvidia and the game developers. Not Linux or any particular distro or DE. (Which, again, is not to say that those haven't got any faults, but those that they actually got are way fewer and farer between than it might appear when watching Linus rant).
The Linux community can fix this by developing and offering a unified cohesive environment for game developers and an easy to use experience for the user so attract both. I think eventually Valve will do this for the Linux community. Look at how Valve is doing it, that's the right start. Instead of just saying this game doesn't work on Linux, too bad, they fix bugs in proton to make it work. However, I get it, there is no financial incentive for the Linux community to improve the user experience/compatibility where as valve will make money from fixing these issues.
@@someyoutubeuser9077 Nvidia I can understand. But game devs... it's hard enough to code a good working game, let alone one that runs on all three platforms. So I'll ask you, if you don't have the time and resources to dedicate making a game for Windows, Linux and MacOS, which would you choose? Keep in mind the following:
Windows has 83% market share, MacOS has around 16 I believe, and Linux 2%.
Steam Hardware Survey says 95% of Steam users use Windows 10, and 1% use a Linux Distro. Steam has around 1 Billion user accounts, and 120 Million monthly average active users.
Your goal is to sell to as many people as possible.
See the problem Linux has to overcome? It's not that game devs are lazy, it's just they may not have the resources and time to dedicate to a potential base of 1%. And that 1% is of those who partook in the hardware survey. And unfortunately, that's where Linux Gaming stands to this date. You're lucky a company like Valve is taking it seriously, else it would be much worse...
@@Xyler94 Most games are written in game engines these days, and most of those are natively supporting Linux (or at worst will work flawlessly via Wine/Proton), so the work the game devs actually have to do is pretty much nothing extra - the game engine (or Wine/Proton) devs already did it for them... So it really is for many of them just pure lazy or deliberate DRM choices so they own the game you paid for, and you may only use it their way etc...
@@foldionepapyrus3441 Um, every single game is written in game engines. But that doesn't mean it's easily compatible with Linux. You still do need to optimize and release a binary for Linux. Even though Unity does have Linux support, many Unity Games do not have Linux binaries.
And if it's so easy, then you make a game. Show these "Lazy Devs" they're lazy.
There are currently no linux drivers for non-techy users and since nobody from the techy users needs those drivers, they will never be made. Quite simple, tech savy users don't want to support non-techy users.
Drivers? Like what? Every driver I've ever needed, with the exception of Nvidia's, have been built into the kernel.
If the linux community wants to grow they need to fix all these issues ASAP. this is EXACTLY what they need. this is the blueprint for "how do I make pretty much all gamers leave windows". Just make it not suck. These are the EXACT pain points to address. Even if they UI doesn't cover everything if these specific things work (discord, games and streaming software) they will pretty much worship the OS. Then you lure them into the more complex stuff by adding "performance tweak" thread guides and stuff. Gamers love modding games and the OS will end up no different.
None of them want to pay 100+ for a crappy OS they would rather build their high end gamer PC and throw a FREE OS on it. Then put that 100+ towards a keyboard or mouse or something.
Linux really does have a huge blindspot when it comes to ease of use. As someone who is learning linux for professional use, it can be incredibly, incredibly frustrating to learn. I agree with the video that Linux is NOT user friendly. Yes, we can do a lot of really cool things after learning how the system works, but getting to that point is NOT intuitive, or necessarily easy. I do NOT agree that there needs to be an monolithic force to correct this issue. The answer isn't to build a cathedral to dictate how the bazaar around it works for new stalls or stall customers (to borrow some words from Eric S. Raymond). The real answer to this monolithic issue is break it down and fix the individual parts of the issue.
For some anecdotal evidence in the other direction, Windows and Mac are NOT issue free either. Getting older software running can be nightmarish, so much it's sort of a meme for system administrators that there is always going to be a silent box in the corner you hope doesn't break, because the company wrote the software for windows 98 and refuses to update it. For Mac, if you ever want to do anything outside of their paradigm, it just breaks, often about as unusually as linux.
I do wish linux does gain more ground with desktops. If I could run my games with only slightly more hassle in linux than in windows. I'd do it in a heartbeat. And while it's so close to that point for me. It's not for others. I can create soft links with the correct permissions so that my "start menu" works in under 30 secs in plasma. A new, tech illiterate would not be able nor want to. And they shouldn't be expected to.
The problem of limux is too much freedom if everything is free to be whatever than none follow any quality standard, why do you think enginnering or quemical work, or heatlh care has a bunch of protocols and rules? Mac osx and windows are much better to ise because they focus on the average user, the one who does not care to learn the system, they just use it cause they have to, we are on the GUI age, text base OS should be a thing of the past for average users. IT, soft devs, and power users know that code and instructions are what really runs everything till date and they use on daily bases cause they know about it, but average users only want to use GUI, actually they mostly only know how to use GUI, accessibility is the key, terminals/Bashs and powershells/CMDs are not accessible at all, they should never be recommended to be used in any average everyday use, the objective is for them to never have to use it at all, and reduce the need of use of those text UI to the minimum or never be needed at all(average user case).
@@erwinamanciosilva7693 I only slightly agree. I do agree that the average user only wants to interact with their system by the gui. I don't, however, agree that linux's issue is too much freedom. Saying the issue is too much freedom oversimplifies the issues and ultimately fails to describe it. While apple is quite closed in really weird ways, it still has quite a large amount of freedom. And windows on the whole is fairly free too in certain respects, so why does windows succeed over mac and linux? I will also say that no; software devs, IT, and power users do not "know that code and instructions are what really what runs everything till date". I have met people of all three disciplines, who really didn't know what was going on under the hood of their system.
PS. I'm not trying to be aggressive/mean, just some material to chew on. Having to rush so I can go get dinner made and I'm a blunt person.
@@DizzyFoxkit i get your point, what i mean by limit freedom is not freedom for the user to use it however they want, is limit the freedom on the dev side of things, to have a proper standard to be followed, with proper steps and protocols to be followed for best result on the situation, windows and mac does not have the kind of freedom that allows someone to make a soft tool or something that endup being beneficial and maybe a future must but is a IT soft eng level shit just to get it running properly with all its dependecies, till day i do not understand why do they not include all dependencies on linux installers? Why the majority of the time i have to search for at least one of them online to know at leadt what to look for on repo, its the colective of those small things that makes every thing so much better on windows and mac, if i want to run program and use it of course it is implied that i want to install everything that is needed for that software to run, you know what i mean? Its these kind of freedom that bothers me, they can make and use whatever obscure lib to make their program, but do not care if it is avaliable on repos distros, or at least provide these specific rare or not uncommon libs with their installers, so we dont have to do a almost scientific article search on internet to find it, also why is it that linix does not have a ducking standard installer? Why so many formats? This make compatibility sucks, thats also a kind of freedom that is a problem, linux does not have a .exe executable, it has a whole bunch different installers that only causes problem, every distro developer think their way of doing things is betters than others, and the more they discord each other with all this freedom allowed, ther more distros and linux we will have, see it from this perspective, do we need a new linux distro/system to solve all our problems(again) and add more mess to a community that is already oversatured? Or do we need to set some rules so everyone can focus on working with them in mind as to make everything easier for they and us users by making everything more accessible and compatible?
Did you just use older software as a problem of Windows . . . .
It's the one place it rules on a level nothing else could touch. Not perfect, the sheer level of software that can exist for Windows versions in the past (also an advantage Windows rules by a wide margin) means that is astronomically difficult to be perfect on. But still difficult to justify bringing it up as a specific problem.
@@wyterabitt2149 it's a blessing and a curse. So yes, it's a 'strength' that i can most likely run much older versions of software on current windows. But, if that comes at a price of either reduced or compromised security then you need to reconsider. So yes, it is also a weakness. Linux isnt free from it either. And while im really not a fan of how certain elements in the linux community will snub you if you dare to use software that isnt the defacto standard, linux is far, far more ahead when it comes to updating or removing something that is backwards compatible because it breaks security. If windows 11 STILL has smbv1, then yea, it's an issue.
I dont see how people want Linux to be mainstream, and then gate stuff in the next breath. I mean the same people dont want both, but as a community its too messy.
That's because they don't want Linux to be mainstream, they just don't want to suffer the consequences of it not being mainstream.
Some people in the community want it to be mainstream and help people as much as they can, while others want it to stay niche and gatekeep it.
And actually both of these stances have a point.
The mainstream faction has obvious advantages, like better support from the devs and faster adoption of anything.
The gatekeeping faction focuses on the advantages of linux being unpopular - like the fact that it's nearly impossible to get a virus on linux, because nobody writes viruses for linux, because the only people who use linux are tech wizards who will obliterate the virus you've stiched together. Or the fact that there is no profit incentive in anything on linux because the community is so small - so noone will write any telemetry or other wonky stuff that riddles windows and mac.
Some good things about linux will go away if it becomes popular, and some good stuff won't come if it doesn't, this is why you're getting mixed messages.
The issue is that most attempts at "improving" the Linux UX experience make it worse, as they don't actually improve it, they just chase whatever looks trendy now (e.g. Gnome3 putting Ok/Cancel at the top of dialog like it's an iPhone). There is also a lot of focus on pointless cosmetics that do nothing for the actual experience. If you want to improve the Linux experience, improve Grub so it doesn't end up in a state where the system becomes unbootable, don't just add pretty pictures to it to make diagnostics harder as I no longer can see the error messages.
I'm a proponent of Linux being mainstream, but only to a certain degree.
There's an inherent disconnect between modern mainstream end-users & the traditional Unix community, I believe that this disconnect stems from the terminal. Most Linux users love the terminal & understand the power it has, Mainstream users don't like the terminal. Idk where this distaste stems from, but I believe embracing terminal is essential for proper, fun, and efficient Linux use.
This advice will sound like gatekeeping, but in reality I'm trying to tell people to use terminal for their own benefit. You're intended to become familiar with it.
@@popspy7665 Yes, the "don't be a noob get gud" type of philosophy that is keeping it out of the mainstream.
0:05 exactly what i've been saying for years, except whenever i said it, people replied with a thousand arguments of why they shouldn't.
part of the Linux community is stubborn and don't want it to be user friendly, they want their niche little corner. which kind of collides with the other half who tells people to move over to Linux because of how great it is.... but they just don't get it.
a Windows user will never get the Windows experience on Linux because of the nature of Linux, Microsoft is a big company who can spend a lot and that plays a major difference in "quality of life" stuff, such as automatic OS updates, simple driver installations, plug n play drivers... there's a reason why Windows is 5 gigs and Linux 1.
LOL at calling 'automatic OS updates' a quality of life feature of WIndoze, every single time I end up having to use it its you WILL upgrade now, bugger off for half an hour while we upgrade or put up with the slow machine, oh and then you WILL reboot...
Simple driver installations and plug'n'play - really no difference between M$ and Linux - if anything Linux is easier as the driver it will load for you is normally as fully functional as can be, where M$ will automatically install a driver less capable than the one shipped with the device half the time...
Also as far as I'm concern pick a User Friendly desktop oriented Distro and it is exactly that, very friendly to the user - spend a bit of time in an OS like that and you won't really notice you are using Linux at all (unless you MUST use x software or hardware that the creator just won't support Linux well (like Nvidia) - then you might have some hoop jumping to make it work, if it can at all)
I kind of agree with him, but not entirely. The reason I prefer the commandline is that I run a shell with autocomplete and history. I typically type one or two words and my machine knows what I want it to do. It's so much better when you learn a basic 7-ish commands. The problem is that people are scared to learn even the smallest bit of basic knowledge that they could profit from for years. It's almost literally the difference between pointing and grunting to stuff or telling your computer in words what to do (at the point where after a word or two, sometimes just one or two characters it guesses correctly what you want, and otherwise you have to type it out (mainly tab-complete) what you want in practically keywords). There are very few exceptions to this (web-browsing and connecting to Bluetooth).
7:30 sound is currently spit, distro are adopting pipewire- most are on pulseaudio
I think we need a "Use your Linux distro without using the terminal for a month" challenge
Granted but why would I bother going through menus and so on when you could just type it or copy-paste it?
Once you have it set up that isn't hard anymore (and for the most part you probably don't need a terminal to set it up with a desktop oriented distro). I'd rather use the terminal, as I know how well enough its usually far far quicker, but you really don't have to.
i'd rather play a GTA5 one-hit KO run... seems less frustrating
@@ThePlayerOfGames for general user, it's the opposite. why would they need to bother remembering or googling commands if they can do it through menus?
@@skinnyfish fair question so let's look at it:
Do you honestly use menus any more or do you do Win or Win+S and then type whatever setting you need to go straight to the item?
Did you know it's been Microsoft UX policy for years that the user must have 4× ways to navigate to a given setting from other settings? This is because users learn a way to get something and stick to it, so everything needs to be reachable from everything.
Did you know that PowerShell can carry out many extremely useful commands in Windows that you normally need to install a program for? Why run someone's code that you can't see when you can input a command yourself, even in Windows?
Did you know that batch scripts (.bat) are a great way to automate Windows commands?
So; if users are just going to tap a keyboard key then type a search string, well that's in Ubuntu and derivative distros as well as Windows. Except in Linux it's just… there whereas in Windows they made a song and dance about Cortana and Search. If users are just going to install Linux Subsystem, PowerShell, BASH in their Windows, why not go to Linux which those things are much closer to?
Sorry if this wall of text sucks for you, it's not a rant against you I've just been thinking about this as a Windows → Linux user
I've been a software engineer for 20 years. I agree 100% with Linus. Linux has to evolve and there should be a WORKING distro (I though Ubuntu was going to be this and it didn't...) that is really easy to use for the general public. That also means installing proprietary drivers shouldn't be a hassle (looking at you Nvidia)
I think linus forgets Chrome OS exists the average computer user users really doesn't need windows or a windows like experience. All they need is big shiny buttons to click on which you can already achieve today. Linux gaming sure isn't there yet for that reason i'm not running it on my desktop either but aside from gaming I think most people who sit down behind a computer are way better off on a tailored linux experience such as a Chrome OS. I've worked as 1st line IT support in a college and can definitely tell you that most of the users have no idea how to even use windows.
Right like 98% of people can be served by chrome os. I don’t because screw google. But why pay for windows when Linux is a thing.
"The linux community needs to stop relying on the command line as a crutch" BOOM CALLED IT. Two weeks ago I said this on LTT:
I very rarely, if ever, have to resort to powershell/cmd prompt in Windows or Terminal in MacOS/iOS. The fact that Linux still makes you resort to the terminal so often shows me it still not there yet.
One thing Linux users have to understand is that they are the motorcyclists in North America of the world. There are many benefits to society at large if we could get more people to ride motorcycles (use Linux) but the problem is motorcycle manufacturers create motorcycles for motorcyclists, much how many Linux workflows are suitable to Linux users. Therefore Suzuki and Linux have the same problem, they need to appeal to people who don't already have a motorcycle/Linux if they're wanting to expand. And sometimes that means doing things to appeal to people who haven't come over yet vs the people you already have.
With motorcycles, motorcyclists claim that shifting the manual sequential transmission is integral to riding a motorcycle. Nonsense. Electric motorcycles have already shown this not to be the case as well as much of Asia who use scooters as main vehicles instead of an enthusiast's 2nd vehicle. A manual transmission does not a motorcycle make. Honda seems to be in the best position to realize this as they've been working on DCT transmissions since the DN-01 from 2008. Yamaha and Piaggio are trying to address the balance and stability problems inherit to motorcycles via the Niken and MP3 respectively.
For Linux, the terminal is much like the manual transmission of motorcycles. So few people who could potentially ride motorcycles know how to shift manual transmissions, so many people who could potentially use Linux will put up with having to resort to using the Terminal. The terminal shouldn't be necessary to use the OS day to day. Apple and Microsoft have this figured out already. Linux and its users really need to smooth out the workflows that still send users to the terminal in order to increase the adoption of their OS for the benefit of everyone. Problem is Linux is used by Linux users who don't see it this way much like motorcycles in North America are ridden by motorcyclists who largely see the manual sequential transmission as an inseparable part of the riding experience.
Fortnine and Linus could do an outstanding collab talking about this from each of their respective domains.
Linux Terminal = Manual Transmission (impediment to more wide spread adoption)
Honda DCT transmissions = PopOS or Elementary OS
Yamaha Niken = I'm not sure, some Linux OS
The humble scooter = Windows OS for rest of the world
It's not quite that simple. Using the command line does not at all mean that something is "still not there". As a software engineer I use literally hundreds of tools, calling them from the command line is mandatory, that's how work gets done. The issue is that, for the most part, Linux is an OS made by engineers for engineers and it works exactly the way we want it to. You just are not the target market. Getting Linux to a state to where it's on an ease of use level to Windows is going to take a lot of work which means a lot of money dedicated to doing that and there just isn't currently a lot of incentive there. With things like cloud gaming services and SteamOS arriving there's some hope but it's going to still be a while.
The GUI environment is a core part of the windows OS though. On Linux its more something that is ran ontop of it, kind of like Windows 3.1 with DOS. The GUI is ran in userland, not by root with extended admin privileges'. It would require extensive rework of the OS or a custom GUI environment to implement that reach parity with Windows or Mac. Not sure how realistic that is without a commercial entity maintaining it. Linus is trying Linux without understanding this fundamental difference, and then complaining about it.
Also Linux does have widespread adoption. Ever heard of Android? How is that maintained? Oh ya by Google.
Linux doesn't make you resort to a terminal, you just used it because that is what your websearch told you the simple answer was to use it (as that is the best answer you can give a stranger - the terminal is universal (near enough anyway) so it will work for them, saying use x,y,z then do a on a gui only works if they are happening to be using the exact GUI setup you think they are... The GUI on most desktop oriented Linux OS can do anything you can do in Windoze, probably even more, you just have to actually learn how to use a new GUI... I can get why people won't want to learn something new, but its unfair to say its not possible just because you generally get much more universally applicable solutions that use the terminal presented to you when you search for your solution...
@@bulatante870 he is right though, I am quite sure in ubuntu or fedora i can abstain from terminal for a month if I didn't have to do my job.
Linux can be driven for regular usage - not professional, as in actual professional tools pretty easily from GUI alone by average user
However once you run into any serious trouble, you normally don't have to reinstall it um... like windows used to be? But advanced usage and non standard usecases usually require terminal
I really think yes. Linux is the kind of system where I have to spend 30 minutes googling the errors in my terminal and after browsing many ask ubuntu pages and problem still not fixed and just let it go as a bug. Unlike windows, where I just search the error code, turn something on in the settings and then reboot or just do a right click.
Windows refugee here commenting from a Linux Mint Desktop! This won't work for everyone but the majority of Windows stuff I use are older and I got very few things to work on Wine. Instead of spending my time getting everything else working under Wine, I went the route of installing VirtualBox 6.0 and setting up a Windows XP VM with 3D Acceleration. The majority of my Windows games are from mid 90s to early 2010s so a VM was enough to run everything. Luckily modern games are starting to be ported over or work natively with Linux but all with time.
My first Linux experience was on Manjaro Linux which is arch based and as a noob to Linux as a whole, the discord server I joined for it was sooooo helpful on getting me set up!!!! I loved it very much!
There are many good reasons to look into Linux, like software ethics, ability to learn, productivity (e.g. as an engineer), cost, etc. - but it definitely sucks as a drop-in replacement for Windows. I hope there won't be just 5 videos looking at that.
Edit: corrected grammar
There ARE...not is.
The verb " is" is meant for a single item, thing, idea..etc
The verb " are" is for dealing with multiple.
"There are many reasons"
" There is one reason."
What are some of the productivity aspects for an engineer?
Publishers could take Lutris as a standard and upload their own lutris configuration for the game. It's really not that hard and would make a game instantly playable the "official way", without them having to touch the actual game code.
Most publishers barely do QA or bug fixing for their main Windows release, no way they are going to take even 5 minutes of an employees day to ensure a decent experience for Linux users. "Official" support for Linux also open them up to a tech support nightmare when any one thing updates and breaks the game.
@@pmdem ya exactly most console ports run better then even windows ports so his post about devs using lutris is so funny lol
[6:20] Sadly, even if you wanted to be part of crowd that hits the wall and makes the cutting edge games work on Linux, you wouldn't be able to. We don't have access to the game code, so we can't make it work with a fully capable computer.
Committee leader: "Who wants to suggest to newbies to use the command line for everything and how they're dumb for not knowing to use it before?"
Linux community: *Everyone raises hands*
Committee leader: "And who wants to teach them how to use the command line, make searching for lines and repositories neat and practical, and properly update instructions for install and use of our products so people don't have to search through decades old forums for the chance of a solutions?"
Linux community: *Everyone lowers hands*
honestly, idk what the landscape was at this point as well, i used manjaro but also understood how it worked, but i recently switched back to linux on my laptop, and Fedora Silverblue is the most stable operating system i've ever used, including Windows. I haven't had a single crash, everything just works, flatpaks are easy to install, and layering works in a pinch but for the average user wouldn't ever be necessary. i'm not a power user though, and basically just play a couple games (all work on flatpak steam), and use a web browser.
As User Experience professional, I cringed at the suggestion of putting a bunch of windows users and observing them. I agree that the Linux needs a drastic overhaul of its User Experience. But, focus groups are not the way to do it. A well -researched and tested HCI following a proper Human-Centered Design approach could take some time. But it is absolutely doable. One other problem with UX and Open Source community - and I have spoken about this in some of my talks in local communities - is that the Open Source communities tend to be a bit too overwhelming for UX researchers and Designers who don't have good knowledge of how the process of contributing to OSS work. I tried it once with a smaller OSS project and it was such a difficult process to get the engineering community to take UX and usability improvements seriously. The way to improve UX for open source products, in my humble opinion, is to simplify the open source contribution practice so that it is easier for non-engineers (Researchers and designers) to directly contribute to Linux GUI.
So are the linux videos coming to TH-cam or staying on floatplane?
That's what I wanna know too!
Im guessing he probably upload them to youtube but expect it take a while because he said he making 5 or 6 part those are gonna take a while to edit so I wouldn't expect to see the video for like another 2-3weeks.
"Linux" (as an entire OS) is achieved by a bunch of software crunch together. Software made by unrelated people in different points in time, in different programming languages, without a coordinated and standarized guide. Every developer is free to choose how their programs work, and just that creates a myriad of inconsistencies. Some reveal as bugs, some as poor user experience.
A few simple examples may suffice:
_ there is no standarized way to set "default applications". That means that a file manager could open a video with program and your browser with another.
_ there is no standarized to draw 2d ui (qt,gtk,aura,...). That means that changing the default font configuration on one doesnt change on others; and it also depends if developers use the defaults.
_ there is not even a standarized way to boot up!
Why that isnt a problem in Windows or Mac? Because they can control every step in the process.
I frankly dont see solution to this. Its not because Linux devs are elitist, ignorant or lazy. Its because is the nature of Linux.
This video series demonstrate that even the titanic efforts in rewriting software to create consistent distros are not enough. You will still be sitting on legacy software and You will still need rely on third party software, which you have not control of.
Also. That ntfs partitions or games using windows api works in Linux is a miracle created by pure genius wizardry. Its a testament of how much effort is made in the community.
Perhaps putting effort into a full os like freebsd would be wise
It's precisely for reasons like this why the idea shouldn't be for Linux (as a whole) to be pushed to mainstream, but instead for efforts to be placed into a very particular and specific distro that fulfills that purpose. Linux isn't an operating system in the same sense as Windows and MacOS are, so it makes no sense to push it in it's entirety in a particular direction like that. However individual Distros are OS's to an extent like Windows and MacOS are (in the sense that it's a particular collection of a kernel and system software, with a particular experience pushed and supported, both in terms of software use and UX). It's smarter to push for an entity to provide something like that (such as for example Valve's work in SteamOS, which might work well in that sense). Something akin to how the Pixel works with respect to Android.
@@-x21- Why would FreeBSD be any different? At the UI level, it's essentially the same as Linux, with KDE, Gnome, tiling bullshit, XFCE, etc. all as viable options. The fragmentation issue is something of an inevitability for any software not subsumed by the OS the way Windows/MacOS do for the DE/file manager/settings interface/etc.
@@sirgodricenwardsaier9074 because freebsd is treated as an os and not a distro
That's why there is Wayland and Desktop environments
I had another thought regarding this whole 'is Linux user-friendly?' discussion, stemming from a discussion below about apt, snap, flatpak, etc. I think sometimes people are a bit biased in how they characterize 'user-friendly' in Linux vs Windows. All my life as a Windows user, I had very superficial knowledge about software, so I just googled things (e.g. to install a particular program), and blindly followed whatever instructions I was given. So while it might be complicated that software in Linux can be installed through things like apt, snap, flatpak...the average user doesn't need to know the difference, they just need to read the instructions for how to install it from the webpage, just like any Windows user does.
More generally now, often when I hear criticisms of Linux regarding ease-of-use for novices, the hypothetical user is often portrayed as less capable than a hypothetical Windows user, i.e. the bar is set a bit higher such that Linux is expected to be usable without even needing to search for information online, which even Windows users have to do.
There are lot of options with distro, DE, software and hardware. I feel that how seamless the experience is largely depends on which options you pick.
9:58 Linus casually ignores the fact that you can install games through Lutris without even having an account. Of course (I'd imagine) most people won't get counted as they never actually (re)write install scripts or comment their issues or simply don't login when installing games.
Also as he said later, you can (and probably should) easily install most Ubisoft games through the generic launcher and maybe add a Winetrick or two as it's much easier when switching between games to only go through the launcher instead of through Lutris after terminating the previous instance. The option of displaying the recently played game further facilitates this approach.
Imagine if Valve instead of Linux gave their support to the React OS developers? They really need resources.
The best OS in my opinion is "Haiku" (open source reimplementation of BeOS) that actually released beta 3 recently and is only a few releases away from a stable release. It lacks 3D hardware acceleration drivers currently still. Hopefully they can get more resources.
Absolutely.
And tbh, I'm enjoying reading the comments here.
I think 'Noob friendly' is not even the right word for the target here, because we think of "noob" as a novice or somebody who is just starting to learn. Literally comes from the word "newbie". The target is really friendly to people who really just don't care about this stuff, which is FAR less skilled in technology than we think of in our circle of influence. There's a reason why Apple made such a splash in the smartphone market with their locked-down device and walled gardens.
To a developer minded individual, it was frustrating not being able to have the freedom to do anything and everything on the device. To a normal person who doesn't watch tech videos on youtube, it all made sense.
Because I believe linux have a lot of potentials to be a perfect foundation of any OS, but it’s super underrated due to the poor UX of the existing distros and steep learning curve , I’ve been creating a new OS based on the linux kernel, redesigning everything and with the mind of creating simple, easy to use and user friendly environment for the general public.
After that, hope this will attract more users and app developers to the Linux world, my OS will also be running on my own UI framework (X11 based), I designed my own markup language for this framework, it’s super similar to the SwftUI style, and with lots of built in controls and easy for developers to override/create their own custom control, hopefully this framework will become better than GTK and QT.
I know it’s a lot of work, but I believe this will be a game changer in the linux and computer world.
I looked up the comments below and I felt I can sum it up better.
You can't say Linux is not user friendly (atleast at surface level) just because of command line or extra steps to get lutris or proton working. If a mac os guy is switching to windows then he will find windows not as good as macos Cuz that's what he's used to. Same with Linux, all things have a learning curve and with Linux it might be a bit stiff but it's not straight up. But yeah, the moment you start to do niche and less common stuff with weird hardware config like Linus then Linux is gonna give you a hard time and that's a fact.
Did anybody else hear Linus go full Christopher Walken at 1:28 ? "They watch, They watch em'"
Like I said on an earlier one, developers and users alike on Linux take a lot of stuff for granted because they're so used to the Linux workflow. I even only started using it 3 years ago and after learning it all now I do too often.
Honestly, I have less problems with Arch at this point than I do with user friendlier distros.
I find linux to be far more user friendly than Windows. There's a difference between "It works on Windows, why doesn't it work the same on linux" after having LEARNED windows for decades and all it's quirks and bugs, and learning Linux for the first time with the attitude of "this is Linux, NOT windows, and this is how linux works". Someone new to computers would do very well using linux and be very productive. They would find it strange to use anti-virus software, have all the malware problems, no privacy, unwanted "updates", terrible mess of installing software from a millions different places, etc. Most Windows users problems who try switching to linux is that they think it should work like Windows, and that's their mindset. They need to learn linux, not how to get linux to work like windows. M$ has spent billions of dollars to lock people into windows since day one, and they are very good at doing it to developers! They literally pay devs. to use their proprietary software over better and non-proprietary software alternatives. (DirectX vs. Vulkan as an example) If the devs stop doing this to expand there market share, then most of these issues would go away. Complain to the people who are the real problem, the devs. As Microsoft continues to make Windows more malware than OS, these devs should be looking for better options. Valve is trying to lead them there, but money is more important these days then good games, and other software. The linux community does a LOT of work trying to use software that other people actively try to make impossible to use by design. No, it's not going to be perfect. FYI, Windows is no where near perfect, you're just used to dealing with it. At least on linux, I CAN fix things myself with the help of the community. Good luck getting M$ to fix anything, especially in a timely manner. /rant mode off/ :D
This might not be totally related but I am fairly certain that I could install Mint on my mother's machine and after a brief period of agony (for me) I think she would be business as usual for her pc usage. Grant it she's an old lady (in her early 70's) and all she uses her pc for is listening to music, browsing the internet, genealogy stuff (again on the internet), email, occasionally printing pictures of grandkids and greatgrandkids.
I think the largest hurdle would be getting her to accept something other than windows...
Tell her it's Windows 11.
You guys gotta bring Chris Titus or DT to the show man
literally anyone except titus or distrotube, good lord
Niccolò Ve or Nate (PointiestStick)!
Give me a break guys
😂 it was spontaneous
UX designer and Linux power user here. The thing about Linux is that the command line is the ultimate "GUI" or "User Experience" for people with the proper mindset, a mindset which takes time to mature to be sure. People who want to program a computer to do exactly what they want without the bloatware of other OSes. Studies have shown that the general public is becoming less informed about the way computers work, from elementary-level programming to directory structures and networking. Linux users take the time to learn how to interact with the computer through languages that it understands which helps its users build skill sets that an advanced or even a simple GUI simply doesn't help nurture. Linux is time-consuming and complicated to figure out but it is extremely rewarding for people who wish to overcome the many challenges involved. Linux is not primarily designed for plug-and-play experiences, it is first and foremost an operating system for thinkers, learners, tinkerers, makers, and doers. Linux is not intended for mainstream gaming and multimedia consumers that LTT attracts. Asking that Linux is more user friendly is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
Absolutely agree. Very well put!
All these Linux clips recently sound very interesting. Am i missing something, they're talking multiple videos were shot already about this topic but i haven't seen one. What a tease, can't wait.
If you're a member of the Floatplane thing you get them early (first one is already up for that group I believe). The rest of us have to wait.
Why don't you fund some developers to write the UI to be exactly the way you want it?
Or did you forget that you're using community software?
Just to cover the bases.. Linux has a powerful command line interface because writing a GUI takes considerably more time than writing a CLI program. The whole point of Unix was to have small 'filter-like' apps that could be chained to do what you need. That works incredibly well but if you want to turn that into a GUI, it's going to take time and money.
That being said. Do it. I challenge you to fund the Gnome team (A stable DE that I think is one of the most polished in the Linux world) to not only fix all the bugs you've been seeing with graphics but also to build Proton or KVM into a native virtualisation layer re: WSL vice versa.
I do agree Linux has a much better experience if you learn the terminal first.
Before I switched to Linux I practiced on WSL.
No, it doesn’t. The terminal makes things easier, no doubt but it isn’t required. The linux community recommending it is just their elitism.
@@SnowyRVulpix Saying what is correct isn't elitism. The terminal makes things monumentally easier and faster if one can overcome "avoid scary hacker black box" notion.
If you try to use Linux without the understanding of the shell you are just suffering.
I understand what you're saying, but with that kind of mentality, you will severely limit the adoption of Linux. If you're trying to convince an average computer user to move to Linux and you're pushing them to learn the CLI, you will loose a lot of people very quickly. As awesome as the CLI is and all the cool things you can do with it, I just find it as a very hard sale to people who just want to use their computer.
@@JJFlores197 I don't work in software. In fact I am a person that "just uses his computer". The reason I learnt Linux is to get work done faster, more efficiently and be comfortable while working. I spend less time on my computer after I learnt Linux because a lot of things are already automated.
The command line isn't as hard as people say it is. The command line used to be a part of basic computer usage at one point.
Thing is, people want to distort Linux into something else to make it more "normy - friendly". But why care about Linux adoption? It's just an OS, let people use whatever they want.
Gnome. Gnome does the research on the GUI front, they get people to test it just like you said. Their whole thing is making a user friendly, gui focoussed way of using Linux. Really, just look at the Gnome project. They move kinda slow though.
Yeah but for some reason it’s a meme to hate Gnome. I don’t get it, I’ve run Gnome as my desktop of choice for literally years except on really low spec hardware and I’ve never been unhappy with it.
@@samuraiBSD GNOME is really good, and I use it. The average Linux user gets annoyed with GNOME because it's unnecessarily difficult to customise, isn't afraid to break tradition and find its own path; and the GNOME devs sometimes have this arrogant "it's our way or the highway" attitude that grinds my gears too.
That said it does run decent even on low end hardware. Definitely not snappy but perfectly usable.
@@Evynea The GNOME Devs' "my way or highway" combined with their innovative drive certainly can and has led to some odd decisions that most users revert by extension. (System Tray, Application Menu, and Default Window Minimization come to mind). I say this as someone who is an avid GNOME user.
@@samuraiBSD I’m a bit mixed on GNOME 40, but that’s more due to the weird windowing system than anything else.
@@TheKeksadler Oh yeah for sure. Imho GNOME is unusable without dash to dock and a system tray extension. And the minimize-maximize buttons for good measure. It's just a shame they go out of their way to make having basic desktop functionality such a pain to install.
I've only recently started using GNOME after being a KDE fanboy for a wee while and honestly I can't see myself going back.
Hit the nail in the head about ease of use. I work on a computer all day so the last thing I want to do when I get home is troubleshoot when I just want to jump on a game
Imagine actually wanting to use your computer. Me personally I like breaking my washing machine just to have something to inconvenience myself and give me something to do.
Alternate title: a community of hardcore techies and coding boys discovers that UX is actually a thing.
I am from tech and also think that Linux should have a proper GUI. I am working all day with command line, the last thing I want in a day is to type any command to the terminal. Buttons are much much more better. Linux GUI is something like enthusiastic project, developed from developer stand point, have almost no usability at all.
You once done some video about seeing help for different linux distros instead of the one you wanted. But at the command line, you can use linux mint help for debian and ubuntu forums for pop os or whatever. When there are different gui's and different apps on your system, you can't get specific help for everything.
Command line is actually noob friendly but people tends not to use them.... Like "what? Are we hackers??" And loads a preset that i can't do this on command line
There's also the man pages in the command line as well. Seems like a lot of people don't realise that the manual is built into the OS.
@@thelongslowgoodbye yes and man pages are not built for gui, as its customisations are endless. Terminal should be seen as cross-distro workarounds
That's been my point of view for the longest time. It's all well and good to say "Oh that's just how Linux is, the command line works so much better". But the average user doesn't want to use a fricken command line. It's not 1991, it's 2021. Have the distros for the power users sure, but something everyone can use with increase their market share and reduce the reliance on Windows - which should be the end goal isn't it? I've dabbled over 20yrs with Linux and there's always something that I just can't put up with in one or more distro's. That being said, I've been trying out Zorin OS 16 in VMware and been pretty impressed with how much better it's gotten, to the point I'm seriously considering swapping over. I might put it on an older laptop and use that for a while to see how I go. As many channels have said, use the windows versions of the Linux software to get a feel (open/libre office, firefox, thunderbird etc) and move (or have a live backup) of user files accessed on a server/HDD to make transition easier. Luke makes another great point in that learning Linux IS almost a new hobby. I'm 50 now, I've already got a tonne of hobbies and don't need another one. I'd rather focus on those. Life's too short and waiting 20yrs for Linux desktop to get their shit together was never a fun hobby (for me at least).
In my personal experience, I spent more time trying to fix bugs and find work-arounds than actually using it as a desktop environment... oh ,and god forbid you upgrade your hardware (especially the GPU). The Linux community is eager to help, but the more you customize your experience the more specific your issues become and you'll notice all your thread posts seeking help will be avoided because any solution becomes too involved for any one person to help with. Not trying to sound like a downer, though. I'm actually planning on returning to Linux when Windows 10 goes EOL, but this time I'm going to make sure I finalize my hardware BEFORE migrating and I'm going to make sure I limit the customizations I make
ya and dont forget u need to go amd because going nvidia is frowned apon even though nvidia works on 90 percent of other devices lol so ur telling me linux forums that i need to buy another gpu in a shortage of gpus that has worse ray tracing and runs worse and also sacrofice hdr support as well just wow
@@Dragonborn1178 I remember when it used to be the opposite. The linux forums would recommend Nvidia only
Linux's greatest strength is also it's greatest weakness: customizability / variety. If we can narrow down to just 2-3 major distributions and 5-6 specialized distributions then a lot of the development effort and user base will get concentrated and speed up the adoption.
The thing is anybody can make a distro. There are major distros like you want but Linus and Luke both didn't pick them. Linus literally laughed at a major distro because the guy wore a hat in the logo.
@@ShinDMitsuki "anybody can make a distro" I don't even know what a distro is. Under that logic, anybody can go to the Moon.
@@as7river if you don’t know what something is why are you so sure making it is impossible? The point is that the freedom is there for people with the technical knowledge and desire to do their own thing. But that freedom leads to overwhelming variety and fractures things as everyone runs off to do their own things
@@as7river - The point is, there's no way to "narrow down to just 2-3 major distributions," because there will always be people making new ones for various reasons. And yes, even YOU can make a distro... there are actually programs that will just ask for your preferences, and magically spit out a distro of your very own, with your name slapped on it.
I like where Linux is right now honestly. I don’t want it to ever become TOO popular lest someone turn it into windows ...
How would someone turn it into Windows? In terms of taking the OS and making it into a widely-adopted normie-friendly option, Google has already done that with Android. The nice thing about open source is that a single distro/environment becoming widespread doesn't need to have any impact on other users, since you can use alternatives for any given component of your system so long as those alternatives are still being developed.
@@sirgodricenwardsaier9074 I think the danger is that when too many users who don't care about free software, or the Unix philosophy (eg gamers) move to Linux that would attract proprietary bloated software that violates all the philosophy Linux was built upon. I would agree with the top comment. I like where Linux is now, in that it does not have too many users but is also not so hard one needs to be a master in computer science to use it as a daily driver. We see what happened to Ubuntu and snap. Same problem, too many users who don't give a damn. That wouldn't be good if it happened to Linux as a whole.
Dunno if you guys are doing this, but since you are already doing it, how about making a doc available which contains all the suff you did to get linux working. So even a noob can look up the doc and get stuff working.
Disclaimer: I do not use linux, but its something I'd like to get into.
A few years ago linux was extremly user friendly, especially Ubuntu, however its gone down hill from there. Now the desktop feels less cohesive then ever, and flatpaks snaps etc is a huge headache.
ubuntu up until the mid 2010s was insanely easy to use
we've lost so much
Gone downhill? Lol. What planet do you think you're on?
Linux Mint Cinnamon has CONSISTENTLY been and IMPROVED it's user friendliness..without it Microshit-want to be 's control that is canonical.
Have you lived under a rock these past 10 years?
Arch users hearing snap and flatpak: :(
Arch users hearing AUR: :)
Well..we dont need those two anyway.
If you think it's an issue, either help fix it or fund it so someone else can do it.
I agree.
If you have a problem you can either follow a clunky ui guide or paste one command in the terminal, the terminal is much more universal across linux distros. You just have to understand that linux is not windows and it works diffrently on linux.
3:00 simple solution: go get as much people as you can (probly friends/family/fans) and have them mess with the is right in front of you or have them film it and answer questions. Once you got a general idea of how things should be set up program a feature that lets you right click a element of the is like a task bar or menu or whatever and have a "move this" button so if it's not organized quite right for that user they can just move it where they want.
Mint/Xfce user, here. Right-clicked my "start menu button" and, sure enough, a "move" option was available. There's also a "properties" choice, for configuring the start menu, and a "panel"-submenu, for configuring the entire panel the button's on. Or adding more panels. Bottom AND top? Top AND right? Knock yourself out.
Configurability isn't the issue with desktop Linux, it's a non-static application user space, which makes it a pain for third-party (e.g. game) developers to support even single distro/DE combos, so most generally don't.
2:33 I am installing zorin 16 when Linus mentioned about it
Out of all the distros, Zorin is likely the best one I ever tested.
Granted I stopped distro hopping before Pop
@@enkiimuto1041 i agree for me both zorin and pop is great for daily use , i mostly use pop for my laptop and zorin for my pc
GNU/Linux DE's could learn a lot from Windows' MMC and Mac OS 9. Configuration and administration absolutely _can_ be exposed exclusively through the graphical environment. YaST is pretty close to what I imagine, but even then it's still not quite like the power of something like gpedit and MMC.
Can be performed exclusively through GUI, but shouldn't be exclusively. You should have all the options with and without GUI. I like being able to modify my settings in the CLI, and I approve or every setting being present in GUI as well. Every option should be available from both methods. There should be no exclusivity to this.
While I agree that the linux experience is not for everybody, I honestly think some of the issues Linus and Luke mention are not inherent to Linux, but to the fact that some developers actively work against their product being usable on linux, usually under the DRM flag.
Rocket Leage used to run beautifuly on linux until one day the devs literally blocked multiplayer on linux. It's not that it wasn't ported or compatible with linux, no, they made a decision to block it one day, and offered a refund (which they wrote about only on their site so i never saw it until it was too late)
We forget that features that make the command line wicked powerful aren't necessarily exclusive to the command line. I mean conceptually.
A pipe attaches the output of one program to the input of another.
Most scripts are little more than shortcuts to running programs in certain ways.
Variables are just pieces of text we gave meaningful (hopefully) names to for use elsewhere.
And all we have in the GUI world instead are the clipboard, semi-working drag&drop and automation through recording and replaying the actions of users fumbling with their mice and keyboards.
The distinction between desktop Linux and server Linux is important here. For a CLI it's incredibly user friendly. Everything follows a very clear set of rules in the command line, but that never translates to an up-to-date gui. Linux is an excellent tool and I happily daily drive it, but it's using what is fundamentally a server operating system as a desktop one - a way not designed for.
OKAY! I have to say this. I have been running Linux for 15 years. Since I was in high school. Linux usually is my daily driver since then. Every single point they make is valid. I have compiled games that shouldn't run. I've run games better on shittier hard ware. Linux gives me control windows doesn't. BUT. I have experince. And watching two people with "fresh" Linux experinces is so validating because I have all these issues. But with my experince I fix them in 15 minutes or less because I know what I'm looking for. When I was a new user at 15 trying to game on Linux was so hard because nothing worked and all the community posts were 2 years or older (love that hasn't changed.) I built 400dollar scrapyard machines to compete with my friends 2k+$ machines and out perform them.
If that user experince could translate to uninitiated users, like you do with a windows machine, there wouldn't be competition. I love my terminal. I love being able to do things windows couldn't dream of. I hate it's necessity. On one of my pcs I had notepads full of scripts that I had on hand to fix bugs, system bugs, and game bugs. I had one to fix my ethernet connection on the fly because it would crash at random.
Ah the crash at random - I had a USB controller that did that, even did it on M$ shit too, shoddy hardware, but with M$ it was dead till the system rebooted, Linux one little script to reset it, and as the script took basically zero time to execute and the USB devices wouldn't noticeablly loose function I had it on a scheduler (less than a tenth of a second for your gaming HID collection makes no noticeable impact - did bugger playing audio over that USB of course)...
You really did hit the nail on the head there though - you fix the issues you run into fast because you know how - but how fast would you be dealing with a Windon't failure? I know I used to be moderately capable on Windoze, but its been so long now it takes ages longer than it would take somebody techie who stayed familiar with M$'s idea of a user interface, command names etc...
But imagine not having to fix shit and waste your time and it just fucking works
@@gloryholdofficial right?! The if I didn't argument was passed, I'm sure linux would adopt more users, and with more users more developers! It can be so powerful but that power is underutilized by pc enthusiasts because it's a hassle.
@@foldionepapyrus3441 okay. A scheduler, That is honestly genius and I wish I had thought of it.
@@gloryholdofficial this has been my experience with arch after getting it set up. I had no experience with linux previous to using arch. the answer to everything is good documentation and patience, I think
FINALLY, someone said it. Linux is a 30 something promise that never happened. I want this user friendly touch not to myself, but to be able to offer it to others.
What are you doing about it then?
@@chaos.corner until I can offer it to my mom and sisters? Wait, I guess...
Gotta say I disagree. I know a lot of people (esp. gamers) might have issues, but Linux works GREAT for most of my needs, far more than Windows. Especially since last looking at it over a decade ago, it's promise has been more than fulfilled for me.
Honestly, it seems like most who don't like it, or find it hard to use, or whatever, are really wanting something different from the OS than what they think they want. Considering that both Android and ChromeOS are Linux, and they're about the most-user-friendly OS's you're going to find, I don't think "ease of use" is what it is. I think too many people want "Windows, without the bad stuff," and I think both Linux advocates and Linux detractors just need to realize that such a beast will never exist, and need to come to terms with that.
What Linux lacks most IMO, is widespread applications and "professional" software support.
So far I found an alternative app for everything I have used on windows
I use Fedora on my work machine and Zorin 16 pro on my gaming PC. To be fair, I only play steam games (with proton experimental) and only ran 3 commands to install the mainline kernel installer (can be done in the GUI as well) so I can run a more recent kernel. Installed steam and successfully play all the games in my library (77 in total) Gigabyte B450 pro WiFi, AMD Ryzen 5600X, AMD RX 6600 XT
In OBS you need to select the audio channel in Linux. You may actually need to add it as a source if its not detected automatically.
Seriously though, you shouldn't be using manjaro and especially pamac. Pacman is the better package manager, pamac is pretty bad, one of the worst. Switch to mint, pop or fedora. You will have much better experience.
I don't know where you got your information but manjaro is just unstable version of arch. Ironical, I know but true.
Edit: Guy told me in the replies that pop os is broken when using steam. Use mint or fedora.
"Switch to mint, pop or fedora. You will have much better experience."
His pop_os install broke... lol
Can confirm. Fedora is by far the most GUI-friendly experience I've had, yet. Literally everything that a normal person needs to do can be done from the GUI...
@@ariane9 Maybe it did. Maybe it didn't. Maybe it was his fault. Maybe pop just didn't work. Doesn't matter. He Still got mint or fedora. Still better than manjaro. Hell fixing broken pop is better than running unstable manjaro.
What?, aren't they the same? Pacman is CLI, Pamac is CLI + GUI, they both use the same backend for packaging (LibAlpm), but pamac gui allows you to install from the AUR and Flatpak too
I used Fedora before switching to debian... I know. Just wanted to say :)
Also, the problem was pop_os. There is a bug atm (still not fixed in the ISO files) where Installing steam leads to your DE deinstalling.
As a network admin myself, I work so often in CLI environments and web page GUIs that when I stop and wanna just play a video game or use my PC, I don't want to have to use the Terminal and CLI, and I SERIOUSLY don't wanna do more troubleshooting. I've been trying my best to limit the amount of troubleshooting I do for family because it's exhausting to do it all the time. If you love that and are a developer, I getcha, you can do you... but I just want to relax after work, especially after a hard day of troubleshooting a very small network related issue that's very hard to diagnose because a fucking firewall is doing weird stuff and it's because of a tiny bug in the software and gah...
Linux, as awesome as it is... just drains me to use at times... I'm not gonna spend another few hours troubleshooting why my Linux Distro cannot download Steam Games in it's own Steam folder, when on Windows all my games just work... I don't have the patience after work to troubleshoot my own PC...
Oh man just made me think about my CCNA days. IOS drove me nuts!
@@NoOne-sc3fz CCNA is a nightmare... Cisco IOS isn't that bad though, but Cisco overcomplicates everything in CCNA, XD (CCNA certified myself until sometimes next year)
@@Xyler94 I meant going back and forth between the..wait what was it...user and privileged modes. I mean if I remember correctly you can use the 'do' command but then you are without tab completion at least on the devices we had. I have gotten so used to zsh tab completion (read, I have gotten lazy).
Wait you said Steam games do not install to the Steam Library folder? That is strange. I don't really play games on Linux but I will have to see where games get installed for giggles.
@@NoOne-sc3fz Actually you're referring to the configure mode. Privileged mode is like logging in as a SUDO user. The "do" command is to use commands in the non-config mode while you're in config mode, and that's rare you need to do that. But yeah, the different modes are "fun".
And yeah, for some reason the default Steam folder says "no space left" even though there's 200GB of free space on the "C" drive ((I know Linux doesn't use Drive letters like Windows, but I'm not a Linux Expert and it's the easiest way I can explain it XD))
I'll poke around with Linux again, I just have work to do and can't dedicate time to making it work right now, x3
@@Xyler94 Well colour me embarrassed! I thought we always had to enter privileged mode to enter the configurations but it has been a while, haha!
Hey at least you are trying, I understand Windows terms so it is cool by me.
When I googled "steam linux no space left" my results were
- How to fix that issue in Windows (do not know if that is the same type of issue you have)
- People trying to install their libraries on NTFS partitions when in Linux. Sorry to ask because I do not think that is the case but your library is on a Linux partition (EXT4, XFS, BTRFS, etc.), right?
By the way I am not trying to convert you or anything, lol. Just so strange. I do not get how everyone ends up with all these issues on Linux but not me. Like most of the issues that Linus has had I have only had on Windows.
Linus, I’m not surprised you’re having tons of these issues, since Manjaro is really unstable compared to most arch based distros, they keep behind packages for no reason, and sometimes AUR packages can break your system because of manjaro’s held back packages
Oh God, I hope he's updating regularly
There definitely a reason they hold back packages because latest one are not tested. Manjaro tries to focus on stability
Linux does not need to change to accommodate people that do not want to invest a little time, read instructions, learn new things and do a little research. Linux is just like learning yaml, json, html , networking, remote access, etc. Some people want to mess with it all, others are perfectly fine just using a web browser apps for everything. Most young people hitting the workforce these days don't even own a computer, they do everything they need with a phone app.
Linux gets better & better every month and every year, last thing I want to see is Linux become like an antiquated bloated Windows OS. Let people use the OS they want to use and get on with it.
I've said it before but some smart cookies need to make a distribution (likely with KDE and Flatpak) that is apologetically straight up designed to clone or mimic Windows 10 as much as possible and really just changing a few fonts, logos, etc to make it perfectly legal.
I know a really smart cookie that codes on Linux. The software he writes is completely unusable. That's because he's orders of magnitude smarter than average. So what he thinks is relatively simple is anything but.