Why you Should NEVER paint Cedar Siding
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2022
- I had quite the summer trying to fix this mess of a house siding situation. Let me know - would you ever take on a project of this magnitude or do you think I'm crazy?
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I cant believe I actually watched a 15min video on "why you should never paint Cedar siding", when i have no Cedar or intentions of painting my house. But always enjoy your videos and used some of your ideas in my own projects. I would be happy if my contractors worked even half as hard as you do. Keep the content coming.
I don’t even own a home 😂 it was still amazing info
As a contractor I have to say
amazing focusing on saving your wood siding. Most people would just install vinyl siding over the cedar. Great job. We love your videos. Looking forward to the next.
It’s absolutely part of being a DYIer that you have a pocket full of trusted contractors that you can call to bail you out or take on the projects too big or time consuming for you to do on your own. I think it’s awesome that you’re sharing this “journey.” I get in over my head a lot.
I have TMJ, too. And, as a fellow MNer, I’ll check out your painters. I may need them. I’d geek out showing you the things we did to our home in Mpls. I look forward to your next video.
Please show me your renovations! You can send photos on Instagram messages @welcometothewoodsblog
Had the same experience with a cedar deck. Super frustrating, won’t stay on or won’t come off!
A lesson one never forgets!
I had brand new cedar siding put on the walls of my front deck. I couldn't understand why after two paint jobs why the paint wouldn't stick. Now I know - thanks for your video. I'm going to strip it all down and do it right.
Hi Melissa, excellent video, your presentation skills, tone of voice, video cut ins and editing etc are brilliant. The thing with any wood is don't solid paint it, but if you want to only paint ONE SIDE. So if it's a gate only paint the side you want to be smart. If it's siding only paint it if the back side is facing a ventilated cavity. If it's a garden shed, paint the outside but not the inside and ventilate it with several vents or by slightly opening all windows. Wood only needs a small exposed area to get wet, whether from rain outside or condensation inside. Once wet, moisture tracks along grain under painted finishes that then cannot escape. If only one side is painted, moisture has got a large area to vapourise from. My workshop is wooden has never been painted, gets soaked with rain then dries out, it's gnarly in places but not a single incidence of rot or decay. Wood is a gift from our creator, he didn't paint the trees!
painted many cedar houses over the years. with no problems. my guess the first couple coatings were a stain and or oil paint, then latex paint after that. When a flexible layer of latex bonds on top of brittle oil paint the old paint becomes a thin rope in a tug-of-war. As sunshine hits the wall, the wood and the latex can expand. But the oil paint in the middle is brittle. Now pulled with double force, it either cracks or loosens its grip on the wood underneath. this is probably going to be an ongoing issue until all the oil-based coatings are gone.
Oil paint never stops curing. As it ages, it continues to oxidize, becoming more and more brittle. Latex cures in about two weeks and stays pliable. Oil paint generally adheres better to problem surfaces because the oils are small enough to seep into the wood or microscopic openings in old, even chalky paint. The resins in latex paint are generally too big to seep into anything. But that can be advantageous. The gaps between the larger particles in latex paint allow water vapor to pass through. This makes latex less likely to peel from homes with excessive interior moisture.
You said the house was built in the 50's, probably no insulation. moisture passing through is stopped by the oil paint and is trapped between the wood and the oil coating. Couple that with latex which can expand and is pulling on the oil coating. My guess is that the most peeling is on the sides that get the most sun.
It's not peeling on the side that gets the most sun, in fact the south facing wall was the only one that the paint wasn't peeling much. The house is fully insulated and has a plastic vapor barrier, I'm located in Minnesota. You could never live in a house without insulation here! Lol. Thank you for your expertise!
@WelcometotheWoodsBlog havent had your problems...seem it a issue that you hadnt considered
What started out as a possible disaster actually resulted into a learning experience for all. And the results turned out great. Thanks for the great info.
The house looks so much better with the new stain, glad you found a good solution to a perplexing problem. We live in a cedar sided house in Wisconsin and I have painted it twice with latex based paint in the 14 years we have owned it. The house is about 30 years old and has always been painted with latex paint. I did a very thorough job of prepping the siding and trim and have not experienced any problems with paint adherence and no evidence of moisture build up. The biggest headache I have with my cedar siding is keeping woodpeckers away. They love to pound holes in the soft cedar wood, generally at or near the highest boards on our 2 story house. Amazing how much damage a little bird can do .
I really appreciate this info! My 1920's house has narrow cedar lap siding and many areas are sporting large bubbles. I had wondered what I might be looking at in the future. Thanks for saving me so much time and money so I won't be painting over it. Perhaps one side of the house to begin and learn and then the rest over time. Love your spunky attitude and I relate. Fun to have creative adventures and yes, at time can be overwhelming and stressful too. Happy New Year!
Very helpful, I learned something that I didn't know and I didn't know I needed to know it.
My house and garage were cedar. Before I bought it, they sided over the house. I painted the garage to match the house siding. Now my garage looks like your house with massive chipping and peeling paint. I was just going to repaint it, till I saw this video pop up.
Now I have to do a major regroup for my plan of attack.
Thanks Melissa
It’s been 10 months since you posted this video. I was wondering how your progress has been going. Your video was very informative. Thank you
Having recently watched your video on how to paint cedar siding, and complimenting you on the professional quality job, I had to drop everything and watch this video. I was laughing before I could even get it started. Bless your heart, you've given more than the average bear trying to fix this god-awful yellow lake house! I'm glad you were able to pull in the professional resources needed to get 'er done right. (You are good at knowing when to seek help, but not before you've beaten your stubborn head against the wall for a significant period of time.) But in the end, the outcome is always spectacular! Another job well done. Thanks for sharing your learnings with us mere mortals! Thumbs up!
Been there, done that. I have textured cedar shingle. I really wanted the cedar shiplap siding because they make a paint shaver that would probably cut your prep time down substantially. Well done.
most people don't have a single clue as to how much work was involved in what you did. This speaks a lot to your work ethic and determination. The house looks great.
Outstanding! Looks great!
Lessons about wood siding / moisture learned, and thanks for sharing what you learned 😎
Thanks also for the exemplary perseverance in finding and implementing a wise solution when you bumped into frustration - stuff doesn’t always just fall into place as we all know.
Kudos!!! Yet another great result; and another enjoyable video - Grazie 😎😎😎
Very insightful and a great outcome - well done
You are an amazing individual! Intelligent, well spoken, persistent, gifted, and let’s not forget beautiful❣️
❤Hey! What a journey! Whew! I know the whole process was maddening. Great presentation of the project! On to the next one❤
I have had the exact same problem. My house is on a slab , no crawl. Thank you for this solution.
Thank you. This was so helpful. Wr have cedar siding, which I LOVE. And this summer we are cleaning amd restaining it. Great channel btw 😎👍
Oh ya....been there! Previous owner of our house painted the Cedar siding.....but once I found out he also didn't use any vapor barrier, I decided to strip off all the siding and start over with a proper underlayment (tyvek). Crazy part was, every contractor who we told that we wanted it stripped off quoted an additional $6k or more.....ended up doing it myself in a weekend! (I think they quoted high cuz they didn't wanna do it)
In the end I took on the siding, windows, doors and decks too....it's taken a bunch of weekends over 4 summers, but saved us 35k-55k....aaand, I know it's done right (it must be, I watched a few ut-oob vidies on how to) 😁
Everything you do turns out beautiful.
Good call Melissa! Figuring out when you need the help is sometimes difficult! You made the right choice to get a professional! You also got tips on how to apply any future staining!
Great information and very enjoyable to watch.
When we bought our house in '92 it came with red cedar shingles painted gray. They were installed on the house in the 60's and the garage in the 70's. I painted all of them in the Fall of '92 with Ben Moore Jack Pine and have not re-painted since. They have held up well for being so old though the north and west walls on the house are starting to look their age.
It was a project worth doing. Looks really good!
so helpful! I'm trying to do the same with my cedar
We've owned two different houses with cedar siding over the years. One was stained with oil based stain. The other has the Cetol products. I had outdoor painted gates. It was a nightmare. Ended up sanding the paint off and staining them too.
Thanks for sharing. I understand the need to want to do it yourself but, as you said, sometimes we all need a little help. Keep up the good work, I really enjoy your video's so I can pick uo some tips and tricks.
Did you ever tried thinned down boiled linseed oil. Spray it on. Used that method on a cedar deck over 10 yrs ago and it’s still in great shape.
I guess there is a reason behind the Cape Cod look, that cedar siding and/or shingles last and looks great.
I'm in the UK (have visited US a few times so aware paints are different) I would have tried a hot air gun and or a steam wallpaper stripper, as sometimes if the wood has high moisture content using heat to produce steam behind the paint will lift the paint. Anyway, you did a great job and preparation is the most difficult and most important part.
I have been doing a lot of DIY projects. Your comment "I never knew just wanting to change the paint color could turn out to be such a mess" hit home for me. lol
Thanks for sharing. You are amazing.
Most of the moisture comes from cracks and gaps in the paint. Even very small cracks can cause this issue. And if the moisture is concentrated on the interior can contribute to it as well.
TMJ and grinding teeth hint for you. I started seeing a new dentist and he filed a tiny bit of my teeth in the front to adjust my bite. Now I still clench a little but I no longer grind my teeth at night which is such a blessing.
The house is really shaping up nicely....and I laughed out loud at the "What a nut job" line. 😆
Thank you for this inside information. It helps a ton! Skip McCain
My cedar siding is still stellar and my house was built in 68 and I live in the wet northwest!!!!! Getting it painted soon so I'm looking at how to prep wood right to be ready for paint. It's been over 11 years since it's had any paint just a little primer on eves after power washing few yes back.
Interesting story and it looks like you came to a good solution. I come to you from the land of Western Red Cedar siding. The Pacific NW. Most of our old houses around here have cedar siding of one form or another. In my experience it's all about the base coat that is in contact with the wood. If that was an oil based primer and was repainted before it failed you are golden. Anything else and your paint is going to have a shortened lifespan. I'm not sure I buy the "cedar needs to breathe" line of thinking: It just doesn't jibe with my experience.
Either way, you brought it down to a bare surface and applied a quality coat on the siding.
The moisture problem sounds like it might not be done with you though. I would consider buying a pinned moisture meter ($50) and monitoring the problem area. You might be able to narrow down the causes just from that.
Wow the house is exactly how my newly purchased old house is. I don't like yellow at all but it is on my lowest priority. Can't wait to change the color.
Thanks for sharing ❤❤
I have a rental 50's house with cedar siding...I feel your pain!! I have pressure washed and scraped every inch. I then proceeded to prime it with water-based exterior primer and had tons of tannins bleed through. Yes I bought kills 123 or whatever and coated that on. The bleeding has stopped from the Tannins. The pressure treated wood actually bleeds more tannins I found. Also My siding is Reverse board and batten With a tremendous amount of buckling but my problem is not moisture it's incredible dry wood/rot. Today and tomorrow I am caulking every vertical gap--That is a lot of calking product some at $10 a tube… the house is a tear down Because it is a commercial property and the little house should go away to make away for a shopping center or something of that nature so I don't want to put new siding on it And I'm trying to fix it up on the cheap just so I can have monthly income until the time comes to sell it to someone who can develop it… But geez is my house and onion! Don't get me started what's going on inside! Ha ha I think my house is a kit house from Montgomery ward or Sears catalog. If anyone has any information about these kit houses please message me I would be really interested to know… I live in the Northwest Portland Oregon/Vancouver Washington area. Anyway I feel your pain I am in it now! Ha ha
Good job again Melissa. This could have turned out a lot worse, had you not sought some professional advice. happy to see that it looks nice, and will last for a number f years!
Wow that's a crazy amount of time and work ... I think I would have checked out the paint issue them be like it's time to hire a person lol.. the house is coming around. Good job
Grew up in a 2 story house with siding like yours almost 50 yrs in the family and repainted by us multiple times in NE Ohio. Nightmare. You probably heard it needs painted both sides before installed or not at all? Ours wasn't. Last time before we sold it I blew it off with a 150 cfm portable compressor (jack hammer/sandblast type) and homemade nozzle/valve as opposed to sandblasting and staining it. I could have. It's my equipment. Then I spackled and smoothed with some special stuff from Home Depot over years of scraping and grinding. I masked and painted it with an airless in one day. 2 weeks prep and one day paint. It looked like new vinyl. Sold the house and moved to Hocking Hills in the woods
Now I'll watch the rest of your video.
If we would've stayed, I probably would've gone more your route. Love wood, hate plastic. Beautiful cedar. Parent's struggled for that house. Departed now. I went overboard remodeling and had to sell in 2008 at worst time. Matter of pride. Lost $1000s on my work.
Nice job. Color.
Hmm. I have a redwood sided cottage. There’s one side where the paint always bubbles. Now I know why. 😊
What you are describing is old school, before you were born usually 3 men armed with scrappers and solvents would strip the paint off, then they would seal it and then apply fresh paint...but not on cedar! The fruit of labor is most satisfying and nothing can compare, your brown eyes speak of your drive and determination. The value of this house increased more than the money spent, but in truth you have to forfeit your labor to come out on things like this. Well done.
I have a friend who lives in a nice two story cedar home. What he does to preserve the wood is spray the house with diesel fuel every 5 years or so and it looks great. He also has no insect problems. When he told me he did this, I did not believe it. But it is absolutely true.
I'm not going to lie, my first thought was what an incredible fire hazard. A wood house soaked with fuel?! Perhaps he doesn't live in a dry area.
@@WelcometotheWoodsBlog I have seen videos on here on using diesel fuel and used motor oil for wood preservatives. My friend lives in a heavily forested area.
Wow nice transition into the sponsor lol house turned out great looking!
If you can't get ALL of the paint off a semi solid stain will not look good. A good alkyd based oil primer will seal in tannin and then it can be painted or stained with a solid stain once primer is fully dried. It is possible some tannin may still bleed through. Give it a year and reprime the spots and repaint after the tannin has had time to weather.
When you started scraping paint away at first it looked to me like there was a glaze on the wood still. Not sure if that was all tannin, a mill glaze or the first product that may have been applied but if the first product was improperly applied and started to fail any future layer of paint or stain is going to fail as well.
Incredible amount of work you did to restore the siding! I bet you're nosy neighbors who wondered why you were doing what you did are now jealous. It's looks beautiful!
When we bought our house... it had cedar ob the upper part, painted a "nice" Orange paint, over other painted colors, all over the stained cedar shakes. The SAME thing had happened to our inherited paint job... Come to find out... oil stain should NEVER be painted with latex. They should have either sand it down completely, use a thick oil primer.. and then paint it with latex.
I ended up sanding what I could and using a super primer oil base, then painted the color we wanted (green).
Never paint latex directly oil stained cedar. Lesson learned.
Thank you.
Excellent
Infrared paint remover works wonders. I own one. it was about $600 if I remember right. Paint bubbles right off. Don't use a heat gun.
I'd like to try that sometime! I didn't find that option when I was researching back in July.
I’ll trade you a paint shaver 😂
@@ANGIEB52 Haha, thanks for the offer! I'll keep my infrared heater. i hope you aren't having a terrible time removing paint!
Did you test for mold?
Vapor barrier in ceiling preventing moisture from escaping into a well ventilated attic
Good idée.
Thanks!
thank you so much for your support! ❤️
Thank God this wasn't a my pillow ad. I was genuinely afraid for a minute
🤣
Other youtuber said use a permacrete bonding agent then paint - I will try this. My paint is flaking off. Too much work to get it down to raw cedar wood on a very large house. Every year 1 full day of deflaking/quick spackle/paint touchup is required, then in 5 years a full repainting. I use a roller on a long pole so goes pretty fast and keep the same color
Plus, stripping it I would be concerned about lead dust
Nothing wrong with hiring professionals, you recognized when you were in over your head and made a good decision-that sometimes is the most difficult thing to do. The house looks nice and I’m glad it all worked out in the end.
You certainly have that Diy lateral thinking process down pat. 🍻Crazy?🤷♂
Automotive industry uses an angle grinder+ rubber wheel attachment to remove decals / pinstriping with out marring or any damage to the underlying surface, yes it works. It might have easily done under your drip edges, it might have literally rolled off the entire surface. I once stripped a 12foot cedar boat with a hot air gun, moisture there did seem to help lift the paint, and that worked fine.
Ok, just re watched another vid (edit) I might have your projects mixed up. re other siding repairs
I've installed many exterior plantation shutters, found natural cedar or kwila oil was totally re-serviceable and we never guaranteed anything with an encapsulated coating system (manufactures very 'fine' print). In flooring before that, I found myself experimenting with many left over cement preparation products used as hybrid timber washes, coatings and durable reactive effects. Hint: Everyday paint store pigment ochres in poly acrylic floor primers make (commercial floor grade tough) generic applications for fractions of the brand name product ripoff prices.💛
It is possible the former owners knew there was a moisture problem in that house and that might be why they gave you SUCH A GOOD deal. You will know in about 5-10 years if you should have resided it as the moisture problem may still exist. Being a lakeshore home in MN means constant high humidity. Ask me how I know.
We are doing things on the inside to prevent humidity/moisture buildup as well. Hopefully we don't have this problem in the future again. We bought the house for $120k below market value so even with all this headache it's still absolutely worth it! 🥰
@@WelcometotheWoodsBlog Moisture prevention is always a good idea and I just hope you do not find wet insulation. No one sells a home for $120k below market value unless there is something wrong with it.There may be more surprises but I hope for your sake there aren't. Loan institutions require an inspection to uncover these kinds of problems. The work and cost may be worth it but it has put you under a lot of stress which you do not need while in therapy.
14:20 Siding Color is “SMOKY TROUT by BEHR.
The Trim color is “PEPPERY” by BEHR.
It's the same with log homes. Always stain and not paint because the logs need to breath or they retain water.
It is amazing how people think about painting. I used to paint houses for a living. So many people thought that they could tell me how to do my job. One woman made me paint in the rain. I told her she would be calling me back to fix it, and I would charge since she didn't take my advice. Sure enough, all of the sides of the house painted in the rain had to be taken down to the wood and started again. The good news is she didn't tell me how to do it anymore.
How beatiful she is! She could be Victoria's Secret model easly.
Yellow isn't my favorite either, but it sure is easy to see. If tannins make wine good, it'll make cedar siding good, too.
As long as there's water inside the house, the water will push through anything keeping it from a dryer place. Be sure to ventilate the building or nothing will stick to that siding.
You are absolutely right. We are doing many things to mitigate the moisture from the inside as well. 🤞
@@WelcometotheWoodsBlog Great! Just curious, but is the side which is in good shape facing North?
Legal ótimo vídeo 👍👍👍
Only use stain on Cedar. I used solid color stain on my Cedar and it lasted 15 years. It never chipped and just loses it's color over time ready to be re-stained.
So the paint issue is due to water vapor diffusion (so you are close in the reasoning). Water vapor (WV) will move through pressure and temperature differentials. Moves from higher pressure to lower pressure, or from warm to cold. Cedar is lesser of the issue, but yes it functions to allow (WV) to move through being only stained. The general issue is wood siding, as the house was updated over time, mostly updated for energy issue. One common issue is new windows (How?), well old single pain windows acted as dehumidifiers (had to wipe down window sills all the time), new double-pain windows are much higher performance and eliminate the natural dehumidification and new windows in older designed walls increases the amount of water vapor in the house (Pressure increases) guess where it wants to drive out, yes thru materials, thru the wall thru the wood siding (thru holes in the vapor barrier, if there is one) from the warm side to cold side from interior high pressures to exterior low pressures and this happens in different directions during the year... there were many recommendations/techniques for wood siding (especially when painted) most builders did not do. So yes water vapor movement will push the paint completely off the siding and cause paint peel....You had both issues.... appears to be new(er) windows and someone painted the naturally vapor-open stained wood siding. There are many papers on this that Building Science Corp has done here is one link that has related documents to read on this issue (also many correction techniques) buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-071-joni-mitchell-water-and-walls
I think the house looks nice like that.
My friends built a big screened porch on the back of their house which is on the north side. They bought 8x8 cedar beams for the vaulted ceilings and and the posts, it was beautiful. I went over one day and all that cedar was painted white 😳 I love white and it’s still beautiful but why buy cedar and paint it ? There’s not even a hint of cedar smell left 😔 Seems like they spent a lot of extra money money for nothing 😏
Can I ask how much did those painter charge?
They did three sides of the house for just over $6000.
@@WelcometotheWoodsBlog it looks nice
Paint the chimney!
Definitely hard to paint cedar. It’s a very oily wood. A lot of people will cut it fresh and not let it dry first but from what I’ve seen you kind a need to put it up build your house and let it sit for about a year or more to fully dry. Then I think it would probably be a good idea to use an oil based stain because water is not gonna really want to stick very well and oil base paint sticks much better especially to oily surfaces I would think. I have seen things built out of cedar that were painted before but not a whole house and the paint stuck fairly well to them but I’m guessing they probably used in oil based paint or something made to stick specifically to oily wood. I used to get very frustrated because a lot of people will paint a dirty deck and don’t realize that they’re just making it all harder and it’s just going to peel off and look horrible in a couple of months and be very easy to scrape and ship when you got Internet. Multiple of work construction and had to refinish decks like that and it makes it 10 times as hard. I don’t envy anyone having to redo an entire house. I’m sure most people flipping the house would just hit it with some paint and sell it and let it be somebody else’s problem but to do it right you really just have to strip it all off completely and condition the wood.
I think that being wet underneath isn’t really that strange especially with loose paint trapping it in. Siding isn’t really waterproof, when the wind blows it blows water up in there but siding is designed to let water out so it just doesn’t sit there for months on end but if your pants not sticking to your wood it’s kind of like having a little piece of plastic over it and will trap all that moisture in there. I know people who build cabins prefer not to finish would when that’s an option but I love you if you are going to finish it you have to condition it first and the oily woods like redwood and cedar take a long time, usually the wood Hass to be dried so it’s usable for construction and has already shrunk as much as it’s going to shrink but even then once they put it on they leave it for at least a year in the elements to let it fully dry and cure. Almost all siding gets water under it it’s just got to be able to let it out and unpainted wood does a much better job of that but the paint also protects it from the UV and some of the elements if you can get paint to adhere to it well. I would always choose an oil based stain/sealer myself but that doesn’t give people a ton of options. :/
I think he did a good job figuring it all out and doing it right, the front looks great and I’ve been looking forward to seeing it once you get the trim and everything done. :)
The way you’ve got it now sanded looks really good, I can only imagine how much work that was. Lol
Well, the adventure was worth the result. The house looks great! There is not shame in getting the "pros" to come in, especially when it comes to exterior coatings. You certainly don't want to be grinding down you house again in a couple of years.
I'm sorry, but I couldn't understand what kind of "brush" that was used to remove the old paint. It kind of sounded like a dime brush... but that can't be it. I looked for diamond brush too, but nope. My cedar sided 3 story house was painted 4 years ago and it is bubbled all over. I need to have it done again with solid stain, but need to make sure the painters know how to remove the paint properly.
You should watch my video on how to remove paint from wood siding because the Diamabrush does have drawbacks like I discussed in that video. I wish you luck with your project!
@@WelcometotheWoodsBlog Thank you. I DID watch that last week, but with my old age and bad ears, I just had a Biden moment.
This lady is gorgeous ❤
I guess linseed oil paint would be better for the wood.
Wow, she is beautiful.
very ambitious undertaking ......i would have put vinyl siding over it and let new owners do the stripping in 2072
Nevermind! My old ears finally figured it out. Diamabrush! Duh!
Why doesnt this lady have her own show yet?
Oil based primer....
Real issue is to remedy the moisture, painting or the wood is the not the problem anything you put on the wood will cause a seal and trap moisture inside and cause decay.
trop belle
Be careful for old lead-based paint!
Don’t lie! First reason is cost cedar is crazy expensive
Cedar siding these days must be God-awfully expensive.
To side this house with new cedar would've been $40k. The cheapest vinyl would've been $25k. This includes soffit/fascia though. Perhaps I could've gotten the quote down if I just did siding.
@@WelcometotheWoodsBlog Ouch! Ultimately though, it worked out for you - and for us. Thanks for sharing; most TH-camrs would not have.
Did I miss the before and after?
You can watch my last video "how to paint exterior siding" to see before/after 😊
@@WelcometotheWoodsBlog thanks!!
These guys probably haven't been painting long and learned on their own. Using a little angled trim brush to paint 6 or 7 inch siding is absurd. What they are taking 20 back & forth stokes to do could be done in three with the proper brush.
As a professional painter there is so much wrong with this video lol
U are a pretty, charming and sympathic woman. I like to watching u...
Cedar has oils
You missed the real problem. The bottom edge of the siding is NEVER properly prepped. Siding should be painted or stained BEFORE installation. I see this failure on EVERY project. Even with all the work you did on your sliding, water will hang off the bottom edge and soak up into the wood. SORRY for that failure. :-(