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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- This one's for all of you GMs out there!
We've all been in the position where our player does something unexpected and we need to pull a random DC out of thin air. It may seem overwhelming at first, but Pathfinder 2e DC's are actually farly simple to come up with on the fly! Don't let the big numbers scare you, setting DC's is EASY in Pathfinder 2nd Edition!
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If the internet has taught me anything about table top players, 2nd grade math is hard. And you can trust anything on the internet right!? Quality video once again nonat, it really is that simple and the method you propose is very straighr forward, and i appreciate that.
Haha glad you enjoyed it! And, to be fair, I've screwed up my fair share of 2nd grade math lol. Twice in one session I was GMing, I thought 17 + 8 = 22.
It's because you're switching between the left and right side of the brain, storytelling and math come from different places.
The DCs by level tables from *pg. 503* are on both GM screens (and should be on every GM's screen)
40 years in and I’ve never used a screen
@@scottnolan2833 well, you are missing out.
@@scottnolan2833 I found that I have to highlight the sections on a DM screen to catch my eye quicker, usually the text just blends in with everything else.
The actual Formula behind that Table is 14+Level+Level/3 (rounded down)
That results in a ~50/50 Chance for a Challenge of Equal Level to your Character for a Trained Skill with ~+4/+5. As long as they took the Ability Boost too.
One of the best things of this new edition is how easy it is to set DCs! I always keep those tables under my nose and it's a breeze.
I am still stunned by how much disinformation there is around the rule system of this beautiful game on the internet
It's such a great system, and every day it seems like more and more people are starting to try it out!!
You've seriously become my go to PF2e channel! I DM and this game has easily become my favorite, and I love your breakdowns and frequent updates! You're quick and to the point and you deserve way more subs! Keep it up !
The Formula Paizo uses is: 14 + Level of Task +1 extra per 3 LV (But Nonat1s is super close, just has bigger jumps at the 5lv increments)
I just wrote this whole video's script on my dm screen...
Thanks a lot
Did you make sure to write down the part about the sell-out archetype? Very important.
I dig the video Nonat, it keeps is simple. I implore a different method that comes from the book. I have Table 10-5 "DC's by Level" (which a GM should always have handy) and then I use Table 10-6 "DC Adjustments" to modify the task presented. I definitely agree with you in saying what is most important is to not get confused with making every task or DC at the character's level but the level of the task itself.
The question becomes: How do I decide what level a lock should be? Should the lvl 8 Ogre lair have better locks than the much better maintained Tavern the players started in at lvl 1? What's the level of swimming across a calm river? or a rapid current? Skills is one of those things where I find it difficult to handle the huge number variance between 15 and 40 depending on level.
In 3.5/PF1e, there were pre-written DCs for locks based on their quality. You would just determine what kind of locks make sense, and just use those DCs.
A simple lock has a DC 20, which is plenty to keep untrained riff-raff out, but not so bad as a low level Rouge couldn't get through it in a couple of tries.
The best locks had a DC40, which pretty much required a high level character to either be hyper-focused in lock picking, or get REALLY lucky (or just find the key).
LMFAO sell out archetype xD
Coming in the next Paizo official supplement.
@@Nonat1s hahaha
It worked on me! I liked and subscribed.
FYI for anyone who wants the exact formula (and is ok with 5th grade math):
14 + Level + (Level / 3) Rounded Down
In other words, 14 plus level plus 1 every 3 levels. This is the exact formula through level 21. Levels 22-25 add 2 per level. But by the time you’re there, you know this like the back of your hand, right? 🤪
best advice: always have gm screen in front of you. do everything at half the time,
I want a dice cam on that diplomacy check
This is why I have the Pathfinder GM screen up whenever I'm running. Both the Simple DCs and the DCs by level are on there. Makes it really easy to come up with those DCs on the fly. But that equation is great for those who don't have that accessory.
I agree 100% with your video. BUT as it so happens, your example of picking locks actually has defined DCs depending on a lock's quality. So this is another option for GMs. The CRB's equipment chapter gives rules for "poor, simple, average, good, and superior" locks: 2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=30
Each has its own level and price. So I like to ask myself: "What would a Level 5 wizard's front door have? Perhaps an average lock!" And go from there. I like how more successes are required for higher level locks. When you have only so many spare lockpicks, and when there's time pressure (the Disable activity takes 2 actions, so can only be attempted once per round), it makes that +1 item bonus from superior equipment meaningful to avoid crit failures and get crit successes.
This video just shows what bad design is:
If you focused your life on something, you should not succeed 60% of the time.
It should be 75% to something EQUAL level, not 60%.
Even test pilots do not crash 40% of the time, or they would never retire :P
I find all your videos very useful as our group is moving from 5e to pf2e. Thanks.
if you do 14 instead of 15 as your base (14+lvl+2*floor(lv/5)), you are closer to the table in the book, and are only ever 2 points off at levels 20 and 24, fyi. The tradeoff is you are often easier than the table, whereas you otherwise never are (exceptat level 24) which may not be what's desired :P
The rogue in me is sitting here thinking that at some point the locks with higher-level DCs should be stolen along with whatever it might be protecting because that an investment.
Maybe it’s because I’m coming from 5e, but I still prefer contested checks. Just seems faster and smoother in my head
Camera setup: The exposure is a little too high on this one but the quality is much better. I would either dim your light a little or adjust your camera setup down one stop. Hope that helps.
Yes, I actually like how easy it's to set DC on PF2E because, you only have to add numbers, and while I know in theory 5E is the same on that regard, I find more difficult to calculate those low numbers, even though the range of possible DC's is much lower.
That was the biggest problem in P2 by far for me. Thank you so much
Happy to help!!
Hey, if you're looking for advice topics, I got one for you: ambushes. I tried figuring out how the heck it's supposed to work now that surprise rounds aren't a thing, and I think I might understand it after plowing through pages of reddit, but I don't truly know. There's initiative but one side (team Perception) isn't aware their initiative has been rolled, then there's the headache of sneaking and undetected vs hidden vs unobserved vs observed, when the target is ffooted or not, etc.
The DCs you're providing would be calculated at each level up, so potentially a GM might only need to calculate a new DC, put it on a sticky note, and then call it a day until the next time they game. You don't even have to do it every session.
so ... how exactly did the door that was made 200 years ago level up with the player's character?
Is... Is this guy a vampire?
I don't know if you've seen my son's 2nd grade math.
Great video! I want to be blissfully unaware of any the equipment you ever use even if it really stinks I think anyone would just blame it on comcast
It never happened to me... I'm not lying because : DC 10 easy 15 challenging 20 hard 25 extreme 30 impossible for character level 1-5 (+5 to DC per 5 level) et voila... that simple. The only hesitation I might have is mmm... what quality should be on THAT lock at THAT place in THAT moment in time.
Rewatching some older videos as I go into the final book of Extinction Curse and begin thinking about any changes I want to make for things going forward into Agents of Edgewatch. I typically do a standard level DC. but then decide if it's a normal DC for the level, it's easy so I subtract 2, if it's really easy then subtract 5. And same for something being more difficult or very difficult
0:29 - You say "_pretty much_ every DM", but immediately contradict yourself by claiming it's universal, and insult viewers in the process. I normally click 'like' before a video even starts, but occasionally I have to come back and flip it the other way.
Lvl 1 Char: I want to eat that sandwich!! DM: DC 15 to eat the sandwich. Player: WTF?
Lvl 15 Char: I want to eat that sandwich!! DM: DC 45 to eat that sandwich. Player: pulls knife on DM.
NoNat rolls diplomacy, nat 20.
Ok... I roll a Will save, nat 1.
So... Tire 4 Patron?
Yep.
My on the fly dc method is to look at the roll. A 10 is for an average challenge. 15 is something pretty hard, 18 really hard. If the player really wants to try something impossible, no roll.
This is perfect! I had wondered how to handle this problem in my game. I'll use this going forward.
The DCs by level has a formula of LvL + 14 + 1 per 3 levels. Though after 21st they just increase by 2.
(This is not to say your formula is jank, more success makes a happier game.)
didnt read that far into the comments lol you beat me by 7 months XD
But how do you determine the level of the task? Obviously the difference between a tavern door lock and a dungeon door lock is obvious, but determining the specific number that the level should be is what I'm still not understanding.
Sorry your use of diplomacy has the Incapacitation trait, and I'm more than double your age, so I will not be subscribing to your channel, (also I am already subscribed). 🙂
Too bad my Will DC is equal to Recall Knowledge DC for identifying the Tarasque.
oh god! The Sell-Out Archetype!! New favourite!!
I fell like you are punishing who invest in some skill proficience, because u are starting ranking from legendary, I would disconsider that always at least one always are legendary on that skill and disconsider that exist rogues. This is like if you starting ranking ACs of the monsters basing from fighters.
My method s much more easier. Foret about the DC. Have him roll and look at the dice. Did he roll 9 or under without modifiers? tell him he failed. Did he roll over 15, tell him he succeded. Is it between those numbers? if his modifier is good tell him he succeded and if it's bad tell him he failed.
How dare you roll against me. I didn't even realize we were playing. Alright, you win for now.
Jokes on you Nonat, I'm already subscribed and thus immune to further instances of the subscribed condition.
These videos are great... Thinking about changing my players to 2e from 1e. Thank you!
The "Sell out Arch" gave me the smile I needed today my man, THANK YOU!
Will, not strong enough. Must like. Very diplomatic.
I don't understand what "Level of the Task" means in any context.
So is the level of the task the party level? How do you determine if it’s a lv 3 locked door vs a lv 8 or lv 15?
The new camera is better, I'd suggest to keep using it!
Very useful, thanks. Also... My Will saves suck! I keep failing against those charm person spells....
They're overpowered, bud. Gotta take Canny Acumen to bump those saves up!
How would you appraise your formula vs. the level DC table ?
That diplomacy check and sellout bit made me laugh, so i even clicked the bell. Nonat, i enjoy your content. Keep at it man!
I haven't had that problem
I thought how mutch I want them to roll on a die and just look at the dice to see if this is satysfying
Level scaling is a terrible concept and I'd rather just used the simple dc table to reflect the lock quality/how worth it would be in that place to have a really expensive lock/if they could afford a better lock, etc rather than DC scaling. IE an Inn would have decent trained locks as a minimum but the inkeepers safe would most likely have a master lock while his bedroom would have an expert lock. A BBEG in his castle would prioritize his treasury and chest locks over his heavily guarded front and back doors. A stable would have really basic locks an a sentry at night to make sure the horses aren't being messed with, etc.
I also feel like a player specced SPECIFICALY into a skill should be able to do those tasks with around an 90% success rate (from untrained to legendary they should be able to do the job 9 out of 10 times, as a top professional) assuming they are heavily investing in that skill.
However I feel to each their own. If you would rather go with level scaling then go for it. I just think it makes some skill checks nonsensical.
Honestly, I set most basic dc’s to 15 at lvl1. Then increase it with each level my characters gain. It seems to have worked.
That works fairly well up until about level 7. Once a character can get Master proficiency, "15 + level" will be way too easy.
Consider a Level 7 challenge. That'd be a DC 22 (15 + 7). A level 7 Rogue with a +4 dex and master thievery would be getting a +17 to their bonus.
It's definitely not a bad way to do things, and it keeps them simple, but it functions a bit less effectively as the characters grow in level.
Nonat1s Well, I’m talking about mundane basic checks. And I’m sorry, it’s 15+Level, so at lvl1 the dc is 16. And we’re talking mundane stuff like jumping and climbing and things like that. Of course weather conditions and materials and hazards will increase the dc. And we figure, like with real life training, mundane things are gonna become easier with more skill.
Like one of my guys likes to jump and climb walls. Its just gonna be a basic dc check. If its a crumbly wall, it’ll increase the dc by like 2. A marble wall is gonna increase the dc by 10-15 depending on age and condition. Things like that that can just be quickly thought of in the moment. Or like a basic perception search dc at night is increased by like 5 on a full moon, 10 on a pitch black night(unless lowlight/dark vision). And then for fog we introduced a 5 to 10 dc increase for thickness(since they never actually gave a dc increase value) and then brought the vision penalty down to limiting vision anywhere out from 10-60ft depending on thickness instead of the half mile to 3 miles. So on a pitch black night with thick fog, the dc is boosted by 20.
So as example for the 7th level, its a dc 42 to search out past 10ft in very thick fog on a pitch black night. But only a 32 dc to check within that 10ft radius. So that 32 can still be failed with a bad roll. And that 42 is almost impossible with most characters unless they have darkvision and other abilities/magic items.
But things that have built in dc’s, those stay at what the books say. Things like poisons, diseases, lockpocking, knowledge checks on identifications, those all stay the same.
Nonat1s Also that basic 22 dc check at lvl7 for like a perception check is for basic searches that give general information. Like, “it’s made of stone” on a basic search. But if they want to try and determine the type of stone, the dc increases because it becomes a more detailed search with a greater chance of misidentification.
Edit: it would go from the perception to a nature check. And at lvl 7, how many players are gonna have a master prof in nature?
@@FluffyCajun Most of that stuff is designed to be secret checks if the information is unknown for good reason, so you'll be doing the math anyway. If they investigate the object to discover what it is made of, then it should be important or why make them roll in the first place? Most of the time it's just easier to give basic information about the scenery/setting freely in your descriptions unless it's a key part of a mystery or investigation.
In answer to your rhetorical question Druids, Rangers and Dwarves are all reasonably likely to be master in Nature/stonecunning (stone lore) at level 7.
@@FluffyCajun That's so much more complexity than you need without much benefit. Why not just use the suggested modifiers to DCs? adding +15 as a DC modifier is saying you won't make it except on a nat 20 in most circumstances. So you might as well not allow a roll at all.
Basic information and skill attempts being DC 16 at level 1 means no one without training will recognize or be reasonably able to pass such a check. No farmer's children climbing trees, no jumping over streams unless you are an athlete, and no recognizing an animated pile of walking bones as a skeleton unless you are a town's vicar.
15 if it is average DC. 20 if it is hard. 20 years my system never failed.
this is one thing i hate about pathfinder, the world levels up around you
Ngl, as soon as you rolled the diplomacy bit dice, I went down and liked the video. I got dunked by the crit
What can I say? The sell-out archetype gives some nasty bonuses to Diplo checks.
I failed my dc I had to like the video, HELP! :D
Ha. Jokes on you. I already subscribed.
Aww dam guess I was forced to subscribe :P
Ha I’m already subscribed lol
Sellout archetype 😂 love it
What the heck is a level 15 door? A steel reinforced door with a magic lock designed by a dwarven locksmith master? No seriously... Where does one find a level 15 door? What about a level 15 stealth vs a level 1 check? Super alert high level monster vs a drunk half sleeping orc? More guidance on this for Adnd2 (1986 to 1996) refugee would be appreciated.
... the DC charts and feats are mainly trash
... a lunge with a weapon is a feat..... as a fat overweight guy... i can lunge and poke with a weapon ... without a feat... so
homebrew the trash out of the system.
@@zarthemad8386 It kind of feels required at time. I am a adnd2 player and I love the class with background and ancestry system. Love the pf2e material defining Golarion and all the Omen guides plus campaigns, but I don´t want to run a computer calculation game. I prefer ambiance and description plus role playing to accuracy so I struggle a bit with the maths with +8 at level 1 to +11 at level 3 when I have to run 10 monsters and 4 players each with different abilities and 3 actions per turns.
sellout archetype made me giggle
Set it right before he lock picks the door
Nice, Sellout Archtype
From our experience, the best formula has been (Level +12), period. No adjustment per 5 levels, either. That way even someone who's untrained (as many PCs often are) has a chance, and anyone competent in their profession will usually succeed; should anyone ever reach Expert or Legendary, all tasks will be trivial, as they should be.
Well this really helped 😅
Camera looks fine.
I like it. I tried to come up with a multiplier constant but its not a simple linear relation and didn't feel like getting my old calculus book out. I like... instead of adding 2 per 5 levels you alternated between 1 & 2 each 5 levels [i.e. Level 22 is 22+15+(1+2+1+2)=43] you are are even closer to the published table I believe. Can related it to diagonal movement on the 5ft sq grid maybe??
I think the formula goes a little awry in spots if you compare to the DCs by level. If you do this at 5th level it yields a level 6 DC, than after that you either get a full 2 levels higher DC or just shy at each 5th increment. I think +1 per 5 levels would be a safer bet for guesstimating DCs, so that if you deem fit to make it harder with the modifiers you aren't upgrading an already 2 levels higher DC unknowingly.
Your diplomacy check was indeed a critical success! Subscribed! :)
I don't think I have ever been hung up on the DC of a lock picking and I am not lying. lol
Great video by the way! Very helpful.
please remember that other than rouge all other characters can only max out three skills archetype exceptions occur. in addition are "forcibly" taken up by go from point a to point b skills acrobatics and athletics or have the right magical items/spells. leaving only one discretionary skill per character. most skills never get past trained and especially if you roleplay. in official adventures and scenarios is (almost always) level is player level or higher.
Paizo needs to balance that sellout archetype. :P
Good video man!
Seriously. I've taken it on EVERY single one of my characters, and they've all ended up as successful youtube stars.
@@Nonat1s Sounds about right. At least you dont put it on Bards. That combo gets BROKEN!
you got me damnit
Shit he got a crit guess I subscribe now
I'm afraid we have to use... MATH
So I have to count the number of character levels, then add their proficiency bonus, then add their attribute bonus and then I also have to add the item bonus. BUT WAIT! The Bard is playing Inspire Competence. So I need to count the Bard level, add their proficiency bonus to their Performance, then their attribute bonus, then their item bonus! And then I gotta roll and add all those numbers to the result and compare THAT with the DC and if they succeed they give you a +1. So that's proficiency, plus level, plus attribute, plus item, PLUS the Bard giving you +1.
/s
Going full puffin
Ok, so I'm lost or having a brain fart at the moment. How do you "determine the task level"? Like how do you know that door is a Level 18 door or a Level 15 cliff to climb or a Level 7 document to forge? Where do you find that information?
Completely up to the GM. Typically, I keep the "tasks" the same levels as the creatures who installed them. So if a group of level 7 goblins installed a lock-mechanism on a door in their hideout, the door would be a level 7 lock with about a DC24.
👍
Nice channeling of Seth Skorkowsky there at the beginning. Two of my favorite creators!
And your camera set up is great. The light is a bit harsh, but nice and bright. And obviously your nice, custom backdrop could be extended farther past the frame. Keep up the good work!
Honestly, it might not be a bad idea for the GM to print out those tables to just have them on hand. With some consideration of shifting the DC based off of desired challenge level.
its on the dm screen
@@Theplayerofx Oh? That's pretty useful then.
Amazing content. Keep the good work.
It's never happened to me
never happen. if a player rolls a 18 on a d20 to pick a lock more then likely they made it even before adding mods.
Not everybody has a dm's screen. It's still pretty handy just to come up with something quickly.
@@bluemagnusstormcrow and not everyone likes ice cream. we dont talk to those people.
@@Theplayerofx I'm lactose intolerant. XD
Involving level in the proficiency calculation was, imo, a hugely unnecessary design decision. It's one of the few things I actively dislike about the game design (and I tend to like mathy or complex systems), but that may be because I found the bounded accuracy of 5e to be a really sensible attempt at streamlining. I do otherwise prefer PF2e's granularity in skills, and it's one of the things I look at when I come to the conclusion that my perfect dnd system would be a hybrid of these two games.
I do wish it was as simple as untangling level from the math, but it's unfortunately baked into everything from these DCs to monster blocks and beyond.
It is 100% a barrier for new and veteran players alike. In many aspects (namely unique monster and hazard creation) it requires an entire overhaul of the methodology behind the process. Even I haven't completely figured out how to cleanly and easily design a monster in this system, and that's easily one of the biggest flaws.
I do plan to work on it though and release a video in the future detailing how best to simply and effectively design monsters.
@@Nonat1s Personally I admit it makes things more difficult but at the same time I like it a lot (once you get the hang of it) - I like that every level increases your abilities by a little bit, and the way it makes higher-level characters/creatures contrast with lower level ones. When my Witch got to level 5, I liked seeing that while my spellcasting proficiency rank didn't go up, my spell DC and spell attack bonus still increased.
While it would make things more streamlined I don't mind the current system.
My players struggled A LOT against a single Ethereal Spider in Chapter 4 of our current AP. Now, in Chapter 6, they went up against two of them and just crushed them in a round and a half.
It's kinda fun seeing the dread on their face realizing they're facing two of the most troublesome monster they've faced so far, only to wreck their shit.
I 100% agree, they introduced number bloats just to make lower level encounters trivial as you level... which serves no purpose at all since you will get feats and equipment that will already accomplish that. They could have easily removed the level scaling without impacting the system... at all.
That's one of the reasons I still play D&D 5e despite Pathfinder 2e being a more interesting system.
@@wavenp IDK, your base damage will scale up as you level, but without level to proficiency your hit/crit ratio won't so much. I think it still makes a difference. That's just me tho
first
Wow - this seems super complicated compared to D&D's system. Assigning "levels" to tasks seems unnecessarily abstract, subjective, and confusing. D&D's system of categorizing tasks as easy, medium, hard, etc. is so quick and intuitive, and takes just a few seconds to learn, no referencing charts, guessing what a good level for a challenge is, or math required. I've been wanting to switch my group to PF2 because I think they'll love all the higher degree of character customization and flexibility but the more of these videos I watch the more complicated DMing PF2 seems. It's so much better for the players and so much more complex for the DM.
"If you say it has never happened to you, you're lying."
Um, no, sorry. Setting the DC for something, even on the fly (especially in D&D 5e) is really simple. If I hadn't chosen a DC for that lock just yet, and he rolled that 18, I'd either consider that just enough or requiring a roll of 20 depending on how badly I didn't want them to pick that lock or how much I wanted to make them work for it, and the choice would have been instant. Some people have no issue setting the DC for things like that, hate to burst your bubble. Setting a CR for a creature is far more difficult (and personally I don't usually bother with it).
That being said, I do understand hat some people, especially when they're new to it, might have a tougher time figuring out what's fitting for the DC to things, so I do recognize the value of this video and I am in no way saying that it's stupid or that anyone having trouble with it are dumb, I only have a problem with you stating that everyone has had trouble with it and won't believe them when they say that they haven't struggled with it. Not everyone finds the same things difficult, that's all I'm saying.
I have my players roll, and if the number feels good, they succeed.