One other upside of the crossbow is that if there’s a massive group of players on a point that you can’t approach safely, pulling out and spamming the crossbow can be a viable choice until it’s more safe to move in. Whoever you hit, you’re helping the team
8:26 one additional point is that the auto reload adds to the crossbows utility since it makes every shot disposable since even if you miss you can just switch back to the medigun and get another shot for later in the fight.
Auto reload has another busted utility function on crossbow: you can use medigun to heal player while crossbow recharges, thus you heal faster than with just crossbow or just medigun.
@Don_Kedic If that is the case then that guys is dead no matter what. The range of HP where a player is unsalvageable when you miss a crossbow and try to change to a medigun is abysmally low. I have saved burning players a couple of times with one digit hp left even when i miss my crossbow, the switch speed is just quick and the healing beam is fast to refill hp. Or if the guy is dead from a rocket or other burst source, chances are the medi beam is not fast enough to heal the guy out of death range anyways. Maybe you can argue against a close up revved up heavy?
15:13 I think you're misunderstanding the response, in this case the article talks about urinatING on a fire, obviously 1 stream wouldn't do much. but an entire jar of liquid, be it water or urine, should be enough. The main reason water puts out fire is because it just covers the whole thing and doesn't let it get any oxygen. Urine is the same, it's not flammable so it shouldn't be any different.
Actually water extinguishes a fire due to it cooling it down. It takes a crazy amount of heat to boil water. Just throwing liquid on a fire is pretty bad at keeping oxygen out. A fire needs heat and oxygen. If you reintroduce oxygen without reducing heat then it will reignite after extinguishing it. This is what happens with fire blankets. This doesn’t happen with water, because the water is reducing the heat of the system.
The Crusader's Crossbow is a straight upgrade that somehow it's very fair, the Sandwich is something you need out of necessity (good luck playing Heavy without a Medic), and Jarate is basically "fuck you for even trying to counterplay Sniper, have a free crit".
@@TKsh1 I don’t know, I’ve found Jarate snipers to get a bit….tunnel visioned when going for that crit. They miss their crit swing and then that allows me to start blasting XD
Honestly I'd say making the jarate have a minute cooldown or something would work, same for the mad milk. Make these game-shifting items have real downtime.
in that case (throwing it in a teamfight and not using it selfishly) it is essentially a mini buff banner with a cooldown rather than a damage requirement. i'm not gonna make any opinions about this, just an observation.
Yeah I would rather Sniper get his ability to counter his bad match-ups get nerfed over his Support utility. I hope if Valve ever updates the Sniper they emphasize his Support role. Between Jarate, his infinite range, and keeping a lookout for backline assaults from Spies, Roaming Soldiers, and Scouts, there are times where having a Sniper who has my back is the most stress-relieving feeling I can get in TF2.
It's hilarious that people complain about the Jarate + Bushwacka combo when Jarate as a support tool, thrown out during team fights, is so ridiculously overpowered.
3:48 The syringe gun's projectiles do NOT travel quickly. At 990 hammer units a second, their speed is between a rocket and an uncharged stickybomb. This is the main reason that the syringe guns are garbage and feel miserable to use.
Honestly, I think the nerf the Ubersaw would need to make it not a must-take-must-use would be like a 10-15% damage vulnerability while active. You can still go in for 25-50% uber, but you're going to have to risk it all in a more direct sense.
what about making the Medic better at a CORE CLASS level by giving alt fire on primary and melee that burst heal? primaries throw medium health packs and give 5% uber, melees is Disciplinary action that gives 20% heal and overheal on 15 econd cooldown
“damage penalty is a buff cause more swings” counterpoint: You’re dead. You can’t pop uber if you died. The ubersaw’s current damage is what allows medic to use the crossbow and survive some close range encounters. A max health penalty would also do good on it.
On a side note, I kinda like that shade of blue you gave the mercs on the thumbnail, it would look nice for Blu Yeah, so, the Crosbow is just more fun, getting to long range hits that doo giht damage, or getting that quick life saving hit is amazing
It's certainly a lot easier on the eyes, but likely could impact team recognition from a moment-to-moment standpoint. Just waging. Still, would work cool for a mod.
18:05 I think the Sandwich makes heavy even MORE reliable on Medics, because without a shotgun Heavy is basically defenseless unless he has positioned himself in advance or has a constant stream of healing to mitigate damage during revving up.
With no advanced movement options and easy aim, all of heavys skill should be pointed towards gamesense. A good heavy should almost never be caught in a position where he would prefer having a shotgun over his minigun to deal with an aggressor.
@@FrogInShorts First of all, that' impossible, second of all, that's BORING. The main problem with Heavy as a class is that he is boring, there is an extremely low skill ceiling. Having a shotgun available at all times (you know, how he was initially designed to be) allows him to better and more often position himself properly. If a Heavy without a shotgun goes around the corner and sees and Soldier, it's pretty much over. By the time he revves up he would take 3 rockets in the face. Having a shotgun gives him a small fighting chance and an option to do something aside from just waiting to die.
@@altEFG I'm not saying caught out entirely, just where you're caught out to a degree that revving your minigun is a worse option than using your shotgun. With jump revving corners and knowing the game state, where your team and the enemy is, and managing your own health to leverage plus knowing how much pressure will make the flanker deem you not worth fighting and being able to retreat when they let off. Also with a shotgun if you get jumped by two enemies at once you are certainly dead as you can't target both with your shotgun while the minigun can wipe out multiple people fast enough to save yourself. theres a reason the near entire community doesn't run shotgun at all. (heavy really deserves to be able to run both shotty and sandvich at once tho, cmon valve)
@@FrogInShorts I also feel like every class except Heavy received unlocks that change the entire classes' playstyle for the better without sacrificing as much. Medic has a direct upgrade with the Crossbow. Scout has a number of utility unlocks and giving up a pistol doesn't affect him at all. Demo has shields/boots that give him a ton of versatility. Soldier has banners and Market Gardnerer. Sniper has a jar of piss and melee options that compliment his positioning. Pyro has flareguns that at least as viable option as the shotgun with added utility. You get the gist. Only for Heavy it seems like a choice between a strict utility or being able to move and shoot at the same time. F-U-N.
While physical skill is low on heavy, there's 1 minigun that creates a much higher mental skill ceiling, the tommyslav. IMO it's better than the minigun, despite the decrease in DPS, it's a lower fire rate, not a damage debuff, creating the simple fact that it's the same damage, it just takes longer to get the total amount. And that's a worthwhile sacrifice considering you get extra accuracy and the silence while revving. Ambushes are now viable in way better and more isolated areas where the fighting is nearby, but not close enough to mask the sound of the minigun revving normally. This is what gives heavy a decent skill ceiling.
I think the only change that might make the Ubersaw less of a full on stock replacement would be to reduce the Uber gain from 25% to 20%. That's it, that's the only reasonable change I can think of that wouldn't totally ruin it or be an unintended buff, like you explained
Good vid overall, but I feel like you threw shotgun Heavy user’s arguments to the wayside and hyperbolised our stance on things. No, the Sandvich isn’t “bad” because it can’t chip Snipers from long-range. The Sandvich is still a borderline busted unlock that’s good in almost every situation. But it just isn’t that fun to me. Shotguns provide Heavy with quite a bit of flexibility. The minigun’s spinup time can mean the difference between life or death when cornered by an enemy, and with the minigun’s initial ramp-up timer, it can mean the enemy can kill you and run away with like 6 health. With the shotgun, you can pump them with burst damage to kill them more reliably. And like I mentioned, it’s just more fun for me. Shotguns allow Heavys to be more flexible and mobile when moving that gear up, and can also allow them to chip Snipers from across the map to potentially throw off their aim, which is quite useful since Sniper is a hard counter to Heavy. And having your minigun as your ONLY source of real damage is just…boring. Yes, it provides uncontested utility to you and your team, but it makes Heavy feel way more one-dimensional than he already is. “Opal”-all though, great video. I wish ALL these weapons were nerfed at some point to not be stock replacements as they are…but of course, we live in this reality where they are.
I agree with this so heavily. I usually use the brass beast whenever playing heavy and you have no idea how helpful either the panic attack or shotgun are while moving to a new position. It basically takes out one of the brass beasts downsides. Having a shotgun doesn't just mean you have to fat scout like Meshric joked about
The thing for heavy is it's basically a question of bolstering his strengths, or filling his weaknesses. Heavy already has amazing damage at close range, as long as the minigun is ready, but he also has his melee weapons to fill that pothole, the shotgun is like sending a package with 1 layer of bubble wrap, then the cardboard box, and then a 2nd layer of bubble wrap on the outside. Meanwhile the sandvich, and the lunchbox in general, gives heavy independence from his team/medic.
@user-ko7gk7wp5x Good points, and that's fair. For me it's just that I think stock replacement weapons in general are super lame. The Ubersaw should have been nerfed a long long time ago and should not be as polarising as it is, Jarate is funny but stupid, and as for the Sandvich, I much prefer TF2C's banacing of the weapon, being much closer to the original design of it on release (healing 120 health instead of 300, but without a cooldown), while still fufilling the same niches it needs to in the realm of healing a Medic. It's still a super good pick in that mod, but it doesn't COMPLETELY outshine the Shotgun, and that's what I like most about it.
I really enjoy how I genuinely use the SMG and Heavy Shotguns (Depending on circumstances, if we've got medics, and on defense, I do use lunchbox items more). Also use the Amputator, but it's not stock so :P
15:12 it depends on two things: the type of fire (as to extinguish a fire, you need to either remove the fuel, oxygen, heat, or the chemical reaction from the equation), and the amount of urine available. The problem is that the trope you referenced is actually of *urinating on the fire to put it out*, and we don't produce enough urine to make it an effective option for fire extinguishing. However, the most common mason jar can hold around a half pint (16 OZ. or 473mL), and that could be enough to put out small, localized fires, like your teammates set ablaze. I'd be more worried about all the broken glass, personally.
One thing that would have been hard to mention is how basically every wrench outclasses the stock. The jag and eureka effect specifically are insanely good, and the gunslinger is very powerful in a different way. Uncle Dane has a good video going into the subject
Counterpoints to the Crossbow being the best Medic primary: 1) you need to be able to aim to use it (easier said than done) & 2) you need to have a team that will help keep you safe. In casual, I still use Blutsauger to protect myself while I retreat. More projectiles + health on hit make it a good choice for outlasting cocky scouts and keeping them out of my face. The self healing penalty is offset for me by using the Amputator in my main loadout (my preferred saw)
"I dunno. I'm a heavy main. I basically eat crayons." As a scout/medic main, I am legally obliged to tell you you shouldn't eat crayons. I am also legally obliged to tell you the red ones are best.
It kinda seems like you're implying that the Jarate is unique in boosting sentry and afterburn damage, when that's just what any Minicrit source will do? Also the Jarate is easily just a 20 second cooldown buff banner, which is insane even without the bushwacka By all means we should be glad snipers are usually selfish with it.
I wish all the syringe guns could shoot a healing bolt with the alternate fire like in Killing Floor, it would make Medic a much more interesting class to play with some choices about unlocks to be made. Yes, the crossbow is strong but it calcifies Medic's choices and I hate it. If the bolt is that integral to Medic's effectiveness just add it as a baseline ability to the class.
As a sniper I do like the jarate bushwaka however if your sick Of that combo the cleaners carbine smg can give mini crits when charged up and those mini crits will transfer to the. Bushwaka giving you full crits for 8 seconds
2 Things, the second banana recharges faster and u can eat more often and faster. Spy can just on your head and still backstab u. (eating the sandvich ofc)
Mm, the Medic sandwich. A slice of bread, a slice of ham cut straight from the pig with a crit Ubersaw swing, a slice of bologna, a slice of swiss cheese, some lettuce, some tomatoes, a second slice of bread, and a pimento olive stuck into the top slice with a needle filled with human piss. The perfect meal.
For a hypothetical additional downside for the Ubersaw, I've got 2 ideas. Either a -20% damage resistance to make it riskier to swing it around willy nilly akin to the Powerjack, or reduce the length of Uber by 20%, forcing the medic to be more cautious when timing the uber pop.
8:21 In any fight with any class when you have the crossbow: *Boom your dead, Boom your dead again, Boom, Boom, Boom.* This is why i use the blutsauger so in cause I'm flanked I'm not lackin and at least have a chance to survive.
I'd like to mention, the Overdose and Blutsauger are much better for when you are using the quickfix because most of the time you won't need the crossbow. Yeah, there are times when you can't reach someone in time, but if you're using the overdose those times are farther apart because with he quick fix, you'll almost always be at high uber. The Amputator is also a solid choice to pair with the quickfix because again, the ubersaw just isn't needed because of how fast you build uber. And hence I like to call the quick fix the Anti-meta weapon.
If they really had to nerf the Ubersaw, the best answer would probably be giving yourself less bullet resistance while it's out, or something along those lines of making medic more fragile while you're holding the funny saw out, encouraging you to end encounters as fast as you can as opposed to farming on oblivious players. Perhaps a health drain similar to the GRU?
Jarate: Unless your near spawn you need to commit with what you do with it. But the real problem is when are you near spawn like beginning of Attack Maps or most Defence spawns then you can just spam a debuff and look your demo and pyro deleted the enemy in 5 second due to mini crits damage letting them do more damage at better or safer range.
As far as the last clip showing the vaccinator goes, I think the two biggest changes thay could be made to make it less bs (which I say as someone who likes and enjoys using the vaccinator) is to make it not be able to built uber while the charges are active and to make it so that you can only use a max of 2 resistances at once. Maybe the resistance amount could be dropped from 75 to 65 or 60, but if they did that then maybe they should also reduce the uber gain penalty on overhealed enemies. I think that these changes would make it much more balanced and counterplay focused than it is right now.
For the Jarate Section you forgot among the enemies that can't die in one hit from the bushwacka (Bitchwacka) is a demo with 2 heads from the eyelander or it's reskins.
I think The Jag belongs here. There’s uses for the other wrenches, but The Jag basically invalidates the stock wrench. Plus to swing speed is literally a buff to everything. The construction speed bonus is also pretty bonkers. It may not be as centralizing in slot due to the uniqueness of other wrenches, but it’s DEFINITELY a stock replacement.
Two things: 1. I think the real problem with the Jarate + Bushwhaka combo is the Bushwhaka itself. There's no damage nerf on it to balance its overwhelming power when the enemy is soaked in Jarate. If its damage was nerfed so that it could still One-shot light-classes, but not kill Pyros and Demomen in one shot would be a good sense of balance for it. 2. The only sensible nerf I could think of for the Übersaw would be to decrease the swing speed more. At most, it's swing speed should be -35%, but I feel like -30% is slightly more reasonable. You'd definitely have to commit more, but the benefits you get are still strong. Either that or lower the Über gained on hit to be +20 instead of +25.
I'd argue Medic has a third stock replacement in the Vaccinator. A competent Medic using this thing, especially in combination with the Crossbow, makes their entire team including themselves unkillable. It als turns each successful Ubersaw hit into a full charge.
Vaccinator in casual is a Stock replacement, you usually only have 2-3 players on each team that can win 1v1s consistently, not to mention how it makes medic almost immune to sniper. There's a reason it's banned in comp. (I don't even play comp)
I prefer the overdose over the cursaders crossbow because medic usually tends to be in the frontlines where there is heavy fire so being able to retreat to a health pack or spawn when your heal target dies is much more useful than the healing of the crossbow. Sure it keeps them alive longer but the problem is what do you do when your target does die from enough damage or a from a sniper headshot? Now you're in the hottest zone of combat with no plans, if you don't have an Uber say goodbye to what uber you do have.
Preparing to run to healthpacks before fight has even started is a losing strategy. If you can't get out reasonably often then it's a positioning problem, or pocketing problem. You rarely run out of players to heal in 12v12 pubs
When thinking of Ubersaw nerfs, one very interesting change that I haven’t seen brought up anywhere else is causing a slightly slower Uber build rate on the mediguns while equipped. Trading off some proficiency in one field for superior viability in another like the Direct Hit or L’etranger.
Not sure if that's a good idea. It would punish the medic for building uber naturally and force him to get in melee fights to make up for the downside. After all, if you're not hitting someone with the ubersaw, you're just nerfing yourself with the lower build rate. The Vita-saw has the same problem, passive debuffs for medic just don't work very well imo.
The one thing they COULD do is switch the downsides of the Ubersaw and the Vita-Saw. While it wouldn't make the vitasaw much better it would at least make it more manageable and it would make the ubersaw more risky to use.
The crossbow is an interesting one because it doesn't actually feel overpowered, noone wants to nerf it because they like what it does and that means the other options will always be outshined unless they get buffed to be op and change the point of medic, which isn't to be a fighter. That said it's interesting you mentioned it isn't technically a crossbow. I wonder how it would feel if they removed the passive reload and made the reload a second longer, to both insert a new needle and pull back some kind of pneumatic tube.
I always assumed the complaints about Jarate was that it essentially instantly wins a team-fight, similar to the buff banner. But, unlike the banner, instead of having to charge it through damage, you have it basically all the time. Think how broken Buff Banner would be if it charged at respawn.
the tomislav for heavy sjould belong to this group to its so accurate that compared to stock anything wich isent direcktly in your face takes (despite the reduced damage) more dps thanks to the accuaracy and rev up time buffs, even the brass beast wich has a damage bonus deals less damage on most ranges.
The sandwich is only a replacement for the heavy that wants to be the main anchor/tank of the team, which a lot of people believe to be the only correct way to play heavy. And while I do think that it should be your in slot for if you are playing that role, if you wanna play a more roaming play style by or really anything that doesn’t involve having a medic constantly on you, the shotgun should be stock. There’s a reason for it and it’s because it’s better for any other play style other than traditional (not talking about sub classes). How do like 90% of the tf2 player base not see the value of shotgun heavy, it ridiculous.
Valve: Spy sholdnt be able to be 102HP sniper at any range, he is shortrange afterall! *nerfs amby* Also Valve : Quickscope headshots 150HP are fine at close range and Jarate+Bushwhacka is no issue
jarate should give sniper -25 hp to -75 hp something to put him behind some thresholds like the 100 damage, (close range rockets or meat shots) to the 50 damage threshold: other snipers bodyshotting, they could need some charge to still bodyshot but not a significant amount.)
Tomislav should be on the list. I always do so much better on heavy with it. More range from the accuracy, and the silent attribute is underrated. Iron bomber has an argument for it as well with its much more consistent roller damage and ability to jump off of them easily as well. Bazaar bargain is the edge case though if you're a 9k hour sniper (which isn't that rare at the end of the day) then it's an upgrade.
Ngl the only reason I use any of the smgs on sniper is if I'm using the machina and I'm in a predicament where scooping or getting into melee range for a bushwaka are both suicide
I think uncle dane and fsoas both have very good arguements for using the shotgun on heavy, it covers his weaknesses of his minigun, mainly being a way to defend himself from spies without needing to waste minigun ammo or spend the rev time and movement speed penelty just to spy check someone. Honestly i think the sandvich is overrated like its really damn good but its not the be all end all of heavy items.
I still think they need to give Medic an upgrade by fixing the syringes from the syringe gun to fire a bit straighter, giving it more range, and also allowing it to heal teammates for a single-digit amount of health per syringe.
The healing syringes thing would be a terrible idea. Just use the medi gun or crossbow for healing. Syringe SMGs should just be a damage and utility option for the medic not another less efficient way to heal people.
might get some flak for this but...I honestly never used the Sandvich until the Fists of Steel got nerfed. I think the Banana does its job better, The Dalokhos Bar with its +50 HP is pretty good (also the GRU health glitch) while solo, and Buffalo Steak Sandvich if I have a pocket medic as he is the one getting to eat while I only use it for Fists of Steel rollouts...at least until the aforementioned nerf happened.
Jarate isn't the real problem here, it's the Bushwhaka comboed with it. How to fix it in my eyes though, is odd yet reasonable IMO; change the mini-crit status either a speed down or defense down (if it really needs the feel). I mean, if you were covered in piss, you wouldn't want to move much either. Maybe lessen the cooldown for extinguishing your team as well to add to that support style.
Surprised you didn't point out the Crusader's Crossbow is also a spy checking tool since it still harms Spies even when they're disguised as teammates. Just another reason why it's THE Medic primary.
A potential nerf for the Übersaw that was considered was -25 health per hit. This could potentially be a good downside to actually make it risky to go for an Übersaw attack and make it balanced. Though -25 health may be too extreme :3
I personally use the Blutsauger in casual since you can't always rely on your team in pubs, so I would rather have a better tool at defending myself personally
![[TF2] Most-Hated Weapons](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZBKAuKyQ0fE/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] Most-Hated Weapons](/img/tr.png)
![[TF2] Self-Healing Weapons](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/IZTfXzGQtaE/mqdefault.jpg)
![Why [TF2] has (Almost) Perfect Melee Weapons](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/NArb-D-M8aU/mqdefault.jpg)
One more great thing about the crossbow is that you will *NEVER* heal enemy spies with it and damage them instead, even under a disguise.
Exactly! As a Medic main I will always instinctively firstly try to shoot a lone teammate with a syringe, even if full-health, just to be sure.
@@rawmaw I once got a random crossbow crit on what I thought was a teammate. Turns out it was a Spy. He died. :P
It's awesome until it costs you "First Do No Harm"
@@royplatt455
Good point. However….
*”Ze healing as not as rewarding as ze hurting.”*
@@redninja0078 Oh, I wanted to hurt someone after that.
“Plus, I own it in real life.”
If you give me a few minutes in the kitchen I can say that too
Same with the Jarate
"I dunno. I'm a heavy main. I basically eat crayons."
As a soldier main, I too enjoy eating crayons
My favorite flavor is purple
I like blue the best
erm guys I main engineer so that means I love Texas deep fried crayons
As a pyro main, my crayons are melted.
@@Cherno_LadNah a REAL Texan would be eating deep fried butter
@@Stop_fucking_changing_thename yea
Third Degree: What am I, chopped liver? Seriously, the straight upgrade from stock not making it into the stock replacement video is criminal.
Counterargument: the Third Degree *is* a straight upgrade but it's also worse than the Powerjack and Back Scratcher.
Counterpoint: Who actually uses the Third Degree when the Powerjack and Homewrecker exist?
Counterpoint: The stock fire axe sucks and so does the third degree. Pyro does not struggle to damage close range enemies.
Counter: Pyro Mirrormatch @@goshking4331
no it isn't just a direct upgrade it's just stock but with one bath on it everything else is better
One other upside of the crossbow is that if there’s a massive group of players on a point that you can’t approach safely, pulling out and spamming the crossbow can be a viable choice until it’s more safe to move in. Whoever you hit, you’re helping the team
This is especially awesome in Medieval mode when everyone is trying to cap C
8:26 one additional point is that the auto reload adds to the crossbows utility since it makes every shot disposable since even if you miss you can just switch back to the medigun and get another shot for later in the fight.
Auto reload has another busted utility function on crossbow: you can use medigun to heal player while crossbow recharges, thus you heal faster than with just crossbow or just medigun.
I wouldn't view it that way, a wasted shot is often converted into a dead teamate in a teamfight.
@Don_Kedic If that is the case then that guys is dead no matter what. The range of HP where a player is unsalvageable when you miss a crossbow and try to change to a medigun is abysmally low. I have saved burning players a couple of times with one digit hp left even when i miss my crossbow, the switch speed is just quick and the healing beam is fast to refill hp. Or if the guy is dead from a rocket or other burst source, chances are the medi beam is not fast enough to heal the guy out of death range anyways. Maybe you can argue against a close up revved up heavy?
@@aereonexapprentice7205 50-150 hp is absolutely fucking massive so I don't know what you are talking about.
15:13 I think you're misunderstanding the response, in this case the article talks about urinatING on a fire, obviously 1 stream wouldn't do much. but an entire jar of liquid, be it water or urine, should be enough.
The main reason water puts out fire is because it just covers the whole thing and doesn't let it get any oxygen. Urine is the same, it's not flammable so it shouldn't be any different.
Wrong, it’ll smell worse
Actually water extinguishes a fire due to it cooling it down. It takes a crazy amount of heat to boil water. Just throwing liquid on a fire is pretty bad at keeping oxygen out. A fire needs heat and oxygen. If you reintroduce oxygen without reducing heat then it will reignite after extinguishing it. This is what happens with fire blankets. This doesn’t happen with water, because the water is reducing the heat of the system.
The Crusader's Crossbow is a straight upgrade that somehow it's very fair, the Sandwich is something you need out of necessity (good luck playing Heavy without a Medic), and Jarate is basically "fuck you for even trying to counterplay Sniper, have a free crit".
nice pfp btw!
@@TKsh1 I don’t know, I’ve found Jarate snipers to get a bit….tunnel visioned when going for that crit. They miss their crit swing and then that allows me to start blasting XD
Between the two, I'd rather remove/nerf the Bushwacka than the jarate, tho my use of Jarate is usually me throwing it on team fights
Cleaner's carbine + bushwaka is funi tho
Honestly I'd say making the jarate have a minute cooldown or something would work, same for the mad milk. Make these game-shifting items have real downtime.
in that case (throwing it in a teamfight and not using it selfishly) it is essentially a mini buff banner with a cooldown rather than a damage requirement.
i'm not gonna make any opinions about this, just an observation.
@@datonedood3791 it makes me feel useful cause I'm kinda like church in Red vs Blue, I always want to use a sniper rifle, but I can't aim
Yeah I would rather Sniper get his ability to counter his bad match-ups get nerfed over his Support utility.
I hope if Valve ever updates the Sniper they emphasize his Support role. Between Jarate, his infinite range, and keeping a lookout for backline assaults from Spies, Roaming Soldiers, and Scouts, there are times where having a Sniper who has my back is the most stress-relieving feeling I can get in TF2.
It's hilarious that people complain about the Jarate + Bushwacka combo when Jarate as a support tool, thrown out during team fights, is so ridiculously overpowered.
Yeah but most sniper arent that selfess so it rarely comes up. I assume its a big problem in competitive though.
22:26 THE BLINDING LIGHT OF GOD
SEE, MY CHILD.
3:48 The syringe gun's projectiles do NOT travel quickly. At 990 hammer units a second, their speed is between a rocket and an uncharged stickybomb. This is the main reason that the syringe guns are garbage and feel miserable to use.
Woo! Nice to see you back mate
Honestly, I think the nerf the Ubersaw would need to make it not a must-take-must-use would be like a 10-15% damage vulnerability while active. You can still go in for 25-50% uber, but you're going to have to risk it all in a more direct sense.
or the more uber you have, the more damage vulnerability you have
Great idea, actually!
what about making the Medic better at a CORE CLASS level by giving alt fire on primary and melee that burst heal? primaries throw medium health packs and give 5% uber, melees is Disciplinary action that gives 20% heal and overheal on 15 econd cooldown
“damage penalty is a buff cause more swings”
counterpoint: You’re dead. You can’t pop uber if you died. The ubersaw’s current damage is what allows medic to use the crossbow and survive some close range encounters. A max health penalty would also do good on it.
On a side note, I kinda like that shade of blue you gave the mercs on the thumbnail, it would look nice for Blu
Yeah, so, the Crosbow is just more fun, getting to long range hits that doo giht damage, or getting that quick life saving hit is amazing
It's certainly a lot easier on the eyes, but likely could impact team recognition from a moment-to-moment standpoint. Just waging.
Still, would work cool for a mod.
FishStickOnAStick during his teenage years:
I'm 25 lol
its good to have you back after your break!
18:05
I think the Sandwich makes heavy even MORE reliable on Medics, because without a shotgun Heavy is basically defenseless unless he has positioned himself in advance or has a constant stream of healing to mitigate damage during revving up.
With no advanced movement options and easy aim, all of heavys skill should be pointed towards gamesense. A good heavy should almost never be caught in a position where he would prefer having a shotgun over his minigun to deal with an aggressor.
@@FrogInShorts First of all, that' impossible, second of all, that's BORING. The main problem with Heavy as a class is that he is boring, there is an extremely low skill ceiling. Having a shotgun available at all times (you know, how he was initially designed to be) allows him to better and more often position himself properly. If a Heavy without a shotgun goes around the corner and sees and Soldier, it's pretty much over. By the time he revves up he would take 3 rockets in the face. Having a shotgun gives him a small fighting chance and an option to do something aside from just waiting to die.
@@altEFG I'm not saying caught out entirely, just where you're caught out to a degree that revving your minigun is a worse option than using your shotgun. With jump revving corners and knowing the game state, where your team and the enemy is, and managing your own health to leverage plus knowing how much pressure will make the flanker deem you not worth fighting and being able to retreat when they let off. Also with a shotgun if you get jumped by two enemies at once you are certainly dead as you can't target both with your shotgun while the minigun can wipe out multiple people fast enough to save yourself. theres a reason the near entire community doesn't run shotgun at all. (heavy really deserves to be able to run both shotty and sandvich at once tho, cmon valve)
@@FrogInShorts I also feel like every class except Heavy received unlocks that change the entire classes' playstyle for the better without sacrificing as much.
Medic has a direct upgrade with the Crossbow.
Scout has a number of utility unlocks and giving up a pistol doesn't affect him at all.
Demo has shields/boots that give him a ton of versatility.
Soldier has banners and Market Gardnerer.
Sniper has a jar of piss and melee options that compliment his positioning.
Pyro has flareguns that at least as viable option as the shotgun with added utility.
You get the gist.
Only for Heavy it seems like a choice between a strict utility or being able to move and shoot at the same time. F-U-N.
While physical skill is low on heavy, there's 1 minigun that creates a much higher mental skill ceiling, the tommyslav. IMO it's better than the minigun, despite the decrease in DPS, it's a lower fire rate, not a damage debuff, creating the simple fact that it's the same damage, it just takes longer to get the total amount. And that's a worthwhile sacrifice considering you get extra accuracy and the silence while revving.
Ambushes are now viable in way better and more isolated areas where the fighting is nearby, but not close enough to mask the sound of the minigun revving normally. This is what gives heavy a decent skill ceiling.
Bro, that rabbidluigi clip took me back...
I think the only change that might make the Ubersaw less of a full on stock replacement would be to reduce the Uber gain from 25% to 20%. That's it, that's the only reasonable change I can think of that wouldn't totally ruin it or be an unintended buff, like you explained
Good vid overall, but I feel like you threw shotgun Heavy user’s arguments to the wayside and hyperbolised our stance on things.
No, the Sandvich isn’t “bad” because it can’t chip Snipers from long-range. The Sandvich is still a borderline busted unlock that’s good in almost every situation.
But it just isn’t that fun to me.
Shotguns provide Heavy with quite a bit of flexibility. The minigun’s spinup time can mean the difference between life or death when cornered by an enemy, and with the minigun’s initial ramp-up timer, it can mean the enemy can kill you and run away with like 6 health. With the shotgun, you can pump them with burst damage to kill them more reliably.
And like I mentioned, it’s just more fun for me. Shotguns allow Heavys to be more flexible and mobile when moving that gear up, and can also allow them to chip Snipers from across the map to potentially throw off their aim, which is quite useful since Sniper is a hard counter to Heavy. And having your minigun as your ONLY source of real damage is just…boring. Yes, it provides uncontested utility to you and your team, but it makes Heavy feel way more one-dimensional than he already is.
“Opal”-all though, great video. I wish ALL these weapons were nerfed at some point to not be stock replacements as they are…but of course, we live in this reality where they are.
No no, you use the shotgun, that HAS to mean you're a fatscout who exclusively avoids his minigun. You just can't use it man.
I agree with this so heavily. I usually use the brass beast whenever playing heavy and you have no idea how helpful either the panic attack or shotgun are while moving to a new position. It basically takes out one of the brass beasts downsides. Having a shotgun doesn't just mean you have to fat scout like Meshric joked about
The thing for heavy is it's basically a question of bolstering his strengths, or filling his weaknesses.
Heavy already has amazing damage at close range, as long as the minigun is ready, but he also has his melee weapons to fill that pothole, the shotgun is like sending a package with 1 layer of bubble wrap, then the cardboard box, and then a 2nd layer of bubble wrap on the outside.
Meanwhile the sandvich, and the lunchbox in general, gives heavy independence from his team/medic.
@user-ko7gk7wp5x Good points, and that's fair. For me it's just that I think stock replacement weapons in general are super lame. The Ubersaw should have been nerfed a long long time ago and should not be as polarising as it is, Jarate is funny but stupid, and as for the Sandvich, I much prefer TF2C's banacing of the weapon, being much closer to the original design of it on release (healing 120 health instead of 300, but without a cooldown), while still fufilling the same niches it needs to in the realm of healing a Medic. It's still a super good pick in that mod, but it doesn't COMPLETELY outshine the Shotgun, and that's what I like most about it.
I really enjoy how I genuinely use the SMG and Heavy Shotguns (Depending on circumstances, if we've got medics, and on defense, I do use lunchbox items more). Also use the Amputator, but it's not stock so :P
15:12 it depends on two things: the type of fire (as to extinguish a fire, you need to either remove the fuel, oxygen, heat, or the chemical reaction from the equation), and the amount of urine available.
The problem is that the trope you referenced is actually of *urinating on the fire to put it out*, and we don't produce enough urine to make it an effective option for fire extinguishing.
However, the most common mason jar can hold around a half pint (16 OZ. or 473mL), and that could be enough to put out small, localized fires, like your teammates set ablaze.
I'd be more worried about all the broken glass, personally.
We’re so back
25:07 TF2 classic change the downside to "-10 max HP"
One thing that would have been hard to mention is how basically every wrench outclasses the stock. The jag and eureka effect specifically are insanely good, and the gunslinger is very powerful in a different way.
Uncle Dane has a good video going into the subject
The vitasaw needs a rework in mu opinion.
Counterpoints to the Crossbow being the best Medic primary: 1) you need to be able to aim to use it (easier said than done) & 2) you need to have a team that will help keep you safe. In casual, I still use Blutsauger to protect myself while I retreat.
More projectiles + health on hit make it a good choice for outlasting cocky scouts and keeping them out of my face.
The self healing penalty is offset for me by using the Amputator in my main loadout (my preferred saw)
"I dunno. I'm a heavy main. I basically eat crayons."
As a scout/medic main, I am legally obliged to tell you you shouldn't eat crayons.
I am also legally obliged to tell you the red ones are best.
It kinda seems like you're implying that the Jarate is unique in boosting sentry and afterburn damage, when that's just what any Minicrit source will do?
Also the Jarate is easily just a 20 second cooldown buff banner, which is insane even without the bushwacka
By all means we should be glad snipers are usually selfish with it.
I wish all the syringe guns could shoot a healing bolt with the alternate fire like in Killing Floor, it would make Medic a much more interesting class to play with some choices about unlocks to be made. Yes, the crossbow is strong but it calcifies Medic's choices and I hate it. If the bolt is that integral to Medic's effectiveness just add it as a baseline ability to the class.
BABE WAKE UP TEAL OPAL DROPPED
Me, who has a grudge against the crossbow:
*Breaths*
*Smashes the crossbow to scrap metal*
23:30
Amp medics: yes its better but i suck
Saw: its the vest but we suck
“Glorious yellow nectar” 💀
As a sniper I do like the jarate bushwaka however if your sick Of that combo the cleaners carbine smg can give mini crits when charged up and those mini crits will transfer to the. Bushwaka giving you full crits for 8 seconds
Alright we must be finished with this series about now.
2 Things, the second banana recharges faster and u can eat more often and faster. Spy can just on your head and still backstab u. (eating the sandvich ofc)
Mm, the Medic sandwich. A slice of bread, a slice of ham cut straight from the pig with a crit Ubersaw swing, a slice of bologna, a slice of swiss cheese, some lettuce, some tomatoes, a second slice of bread, and a pimento olive stuck into the top slice with a needle filled with human piss. The perfect meal.
The way to balance the Ubersaw is not to change the weapon itself, but is actually to buff his other saws.
For a hypothetical additional downside for the Ubersaw, I've got 2 ideas. Either a -20% damage resistance to make it riskier to swing it around willy nilly akin to the Powerjack, or reduce the length of Uber by 20%, forcing the medic to be more cautious when timing the uber pop.
god i love healing people
8:21
In any fight with any class when you have the crossbow: *Boom your dead, Boom your dead again, Boom, Boom, Boom.*
This is why i use the blutsauger so in cause I'm flanked I'm not lackin and at least have a chance to survive.
Sadly then you'll be tickling enemies instead of healing mates who can deal serious damage
I'd like to mention, the Overdose and Blutsauger are much better for when you are using the quickfix because most of the time you won't need the crossbow. Yeah, there are times when you can't reach someone in time, but if you're using the overdose those times are farther apart because with he quick fix, you'll almost always be at high uber. The Amputator is also a solid choice to pair with the quickfix because again, the ubersaw just isn't needed because of how fast you build uber. And hence I like to call the quick fix the Anti-meta weapon.
Medic sandwich is not something i want in my life, thats cannibalism.
If they really had to nerf the Ubersaw, the best answer would probably be giving yourself less bullet resistance while it's out, or something along those lines of making medic more fragile while you're holding the funny saw out, encouraging you to end encounters as fast as you can as opposed to farming on oblivious players. Perhaps a health drain similar to the GRU?
My family business took this video personally
tf2 classic has an ubersaw equivalent and it lowers medic's max health to 140
Playing medic with crossbow is when u can hit your shot on enemy and teammate scouts but u cant heal a heavy that spinning his minigun infront of you.
i like tf2 classic's approach to balancing the ubersaw; -10 max health on wearer
Jarate: Unless your near spawn you need to commit with what you do with it. But the real problem is when are you near spawn like beginning of Attack Maps or most Defence spawns then you can just spam a debuff and look your demo and pyro deleted the enemy in 5 second due to mini crits damage letting them do more damage at better or safer range.
As far as the last clip showing the vaccinator goes, I think the two biggest changes thay could be made to make it less bs (which I say as someone who likes and enjoys using the vaccinator) is to make it not be able to built uber while the charges are active and to make it so that you can only use a max of 2 resistances at once. Maybe the resistance amount could be dropped from 75 to 65 or 60, but if they did that then maybe they should also reduce the uber gain penalty on overhealed enemies. I think that these changes would make it much more balanced and counterplay focused than it is right now.
Well now I'm unbelievably tempted to buy a strange bushwacka and name it "Wanker Wacker"
For the Jarate Section you forgot among the enemies that can't die in one hit from the bushwacka (Bitchwacka) is a demo with 2 heads from the eyelander or it's reskins.
ANOTHER banger thunbnail
For the übersaw, I'd decrease the über on hit from 25% to 20% at least. So it takes 5 hits instead of 4
I think The Jag belongs here. There’s uses for the other wrenches, but The Jag basically invalidates the stock wrench. Plus to swing speed is literally a buff to everything. The construction speed bonus is also pretty bonkers. It may not be as centralizing in slot due to the uniqueness of other wrenches, but it’s DEFINITELY a stock replacement.
"I'd much rather a F2P game use TF2's unlockable system then some...other games." [UNRELATED FOOTAGE, HONEST]
Nice. XD
Two things:
1. I think the real problem with the Jarate + Bushwhaka combo is the Bushwhaka itself. There's no damage nerf on it to balance its overwhelming power when the enemy is soaked in Jarate. If its damage was nerfed so that it could still One-shot light-classes, but not kill Pyros and Demomen in one shot would be a good sense of balance for it.
2. The only sensible nerf I could think of for the Übersaw would be to decrease the swing speed more. At most, it's swing speed should be -35%, but I feel like -30% is slightly more reasonable. You'd definitely have to commit more, but the benefits you get are still strong. Either that or lower the Über gained on hit to be +20 instead of +25.
I'd argue Medic has a third stock replacement in the Vaccinator. A competent Medic using this thing, especially in combination with the Crossbow, makes their entire team including themselves unkillable. It als turns each successful Ubersaw hit into a full charge.
surprised you didnt mention The Third Degree; the ONLY direct upgrade to stock
7:18 the sniper was like "wtf doc" 🤣
i think the crossbow might classify as an airbow specifically
nice pfp btw!
Vaccinator in casual is a Stock replacement, you usually only have 2-3 players on each team that can win 1v1s consistently, not to mention how it makes medic almost immune to sniper. There's a reason it's banned in comp. (I don't even play comp)
I prefer the overdose over the cursaders crossbow because medic usually tends to be in the frontlines where there is heavy fire so being able to retreat to a health pack or spawn when your heal target dies is much more useful than the healing of the crossbow. Sure it keeps them alive longer but the problem is what do you do when your target does die from enough damage or a from a sniper headshot? Now you're in the hottest zone of combat with no plans, if you don't have an Uber say goodbye to what uber you do have.
Preparing to run to healthpacks before fight has even started is a losing strategy.
If you can't get out reasonably often then it's a positioning problem, or pocketing problem.
You rarely run out of players to heal in 12v12 pubs
When thinking of Ubersaw nerfs, one very interesting change that I haven’t seen brought up anywhere else is causing a slightly slower Uber build rate on the mediguns while equipped. Trading off some proficiency in one field for superior viability in another like the Direct Hit or L’etranger.
Not sure if that's a good idea.
It would punish the medic for building uber naturally and force him to get in melee fights to make up for the downside. After all, if you're not hitting someone with the ubersaw, you're just nerfing yourself with the lower build rate.
The Vita-saw has the same problem, passive debuffs for medic just don't work very well imo.
@@LukieDukieNL that's the point though. different weapons force you to play differently
Heavy update: Food items slot 4! Make the second banana default unlock. Close range knock back for all mini guns.
The one thing they COULD do is switch the downsides of the Ubersaw and the Vita-Saw. While it wouldn't make the vitasaw much better it would at least make it more manageable and it would make the ubersaw more risky to use.
I never realized jarate was just combination of jar and karate. I always assumed jarate was just another (maybe Australian) worr for piss
Snipers when I airblast jarate back at them:
The crossbow is an interesting one because it doesn't actually feel overpowered, noone wants to nerf it because they like what it does and that means the other options will always be outshined unless they get buffed to be op and change the point of medic, which isn't to be a fighter. That said it's interesting you mentioned it isn't technically a crossbow. I wonder how it would feel if they removed the passive reload and made the reload a second longer, to both insert a new needle and pull back some kind of pneumatic tube.
Someone else had the idea of adding a healing bolt as an alt fire for all syringe guns
I always assumed the complaints about Jarate was that it essentially instantly wins a team-fight, similar to the buff banner. But, unlike the banner, instead of having to charge it through damage, you have it basically all the time. Think how broken Buff Banner would be if it charged at respawn.
Ubsersaw should give you a small uber build penalty
the tomislav for heavy sjould belong to this group to its so accurate that compared to stock anything wich isent direcktly in your face takes (despite the reduced damage) more dps thanks to the accuaracy and rev up time buffs, even the brass beast wich has a damage bonus deals less damage on most ranges.
Kinda surprised that the Wrangler isn't in the video...
How did you spend 8 minutes talking about the crusaders crossbow!?!
Should I buy a strange sniper rifle chat?
The sandwich is only a replacement for the heavy that wants to be the main anchor/tank of the team, which a lot of people believe to be the only correct way to play heavy. And while I do think that it should be your in slot for if you are playing that role, if you wanna play a more roaming play style by or really anything that doesn’t involve having a medic constantly on you, the shotgun should be stock. There’s a reason for it and it’s because it’s better for any other play style other than traditional (not talking about sub classes). How do like 90% of the tf2 player base not see the value of shotgun heavy, it ridiculous.
Valve: Spy sholdnt be able to be 102HP sniper at any range, he is shortrange afterall! *nerfs amby*
Also Valve : Quickscope headshots 150HP are fine at close range and Jarate+Bushwhacka is no issue
jarate should give sniper -25 hp to -75 hp
something to put him behind some thresholds like the 100 damage, (close range rockets or meat shots) to the 50 damage threshold: other snipers bodyshotting, they could need some charge to still bodyshot but not a significant amount.)
Tomislav should be on the list. I always do so much better on heavy with it. More range from the accuracy, and the silent attribute is underrated.
Iron bomber has an argument for it as well with its much more consistent roller damage and ability to jump off of them easily as well.
Bazaar bargain is the edge case though if you're a 9k hour sniper (which isn't that rare at the end of the day) then it's an upgrade.
Bro forgot the cloak & dagger.
Surprised you didn't talk about the kunai as it is a straight-up buff to GOOD spies.
Ngl the only reason I use any of the smgs on sniper is if I'm using the machina and I'm in a predicament where scooping or getting into melee range for a bushwaka are both suicide
I think uncle dane and fsoas both have very good arguements for using the shotgun on heavy, it covers his weaknesses of his minigun, mainly being a way to defend himself from spies without needing to waste minigun ammo or spend the rev time and movement speed penelty just to spy check someone. Honestly i think the sandvich is overrated like its really damn good but its not the be all end all of heavy items.
I still think they need to give Medic an upgrade by fixing the syringes from the syringe gun to fire a bit straighter, giving it more range, and also allowing it to heal teammates for a single-digit amount of health per syringe.
The healing syringes thing would be a terrible idea. Just use the medi gun or crossbow for healing. Syringe SMGs should just be a damage and utility option for the medic not another less efficient way to heal people.
might get some flak for this but...I honestly never used the Sandvich until the Fists of Steel got nerfed. I think the Banana does its job better, The Dalokhos Bar with its +50 HP is pretty good (also the GRU health glitch) while solo, and Buffalo Steak Sandvich if I have a pocket medic as he is the one getting to eat while I only use it for Fists of Steel rollouts...at least until the aforementioned nerf happened.
Jarate isn't the real problem here, it's the Bushwhaka comboed with it.
How to fix it in my eyes though, is odd yet reasonable IMO; change the mini-crit status either a speed down or defense down (if it really needs the feel). I mean, if you were covered in piss, you wouldn't want to move much either. Maybe lessen the cooldown for extinguishing your team as well to add to that support style.
Surprised you didn't point out the Crusader's Crossbow is also a spy checking tool since it still harms Spies even when they're disguised as teammates. Just another reason why it's THE Medic primary.
I think a nerf you could give to the ubersaw would be something like not being able to switch weapons when you miss a saw.
For each hit your Uber rate increases 15% to a maximum of 60% and if you die you lose it, just to screw ubersaw players lol
I like the Jarate because it punishes the flanker for poor flanking. As a scunt, I find it fair and balanced
id say the amputator is better then the Ubersaw you can taunt with the amp and heal yourself and teammates that are in a certain distance of you
As a sniper main I would lowkey argue the bazaar bargain could be on this list
A potential nerf for the Übersaw that was considered was -25 health per hit. This could potentially be a good downside to actually make it risky to go for an Übersaw attack and make it balanced. Though -25 health may be too extreme :3
I personally use the Blutsauger in casual since you can't always rely on your team in pubs, so I would rather have a better tool at defending myself personally
I never realised jarate was jar + karate lol.
14:45 heh... pissing off. i see what you did there.
honestly supersized the wrangler or maybe even the iron bomber weren't mentioned.
We need more crossbows, so the the other two non stock syringe guns should be changed into crossbows.