Do You Want Better Modeler Tones? STOP Doing THIS! SERIOUSLY! | Tonex, Helix Native Etc.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ค. 2024
- #tonex #tonexpedal #helixnative
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I truly feel this might be the most important video I have ever released for anyone who uses software-based modelers or captures their DI guitar for re-amping. I discuss the extremely important topic of setting your Instrument level input to get perfect and repeatable results. While this may not seem important, it truly can make or break whether you get the results you are after and that are acting in the most accurate manner. The need for this video was recently brought to light with some discussions I have had with folks about how they are using their Instrument inputs. I really hope you find this video useful!
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0:00 - Introduction
1:15 - Why Is Guitar Input Level SO Important?
5:30 - Signal To Noise Ratio (SNR) Does It Matter In This Case?
8:58 - How Did I Test This & Set My Levels?
12:12 - Audio - Guitar Into Amp vs Guitar Into Splitter Then Into Amp
14:41 - Finding Proper Settings (Audio Examples)
16:05 - What Is A Good Level Range For Our Instrument Level Input?
21:49 - What Happens If I Boost The Level Of My Instrument Input? (DO NOT Do This)
25:03 - One Danger Of Boosting The Instrument Level Input
28:06 - Helix Native Gives Us The Answer
29:33 - How Does This Apply To Tonex & Creating Tonex Models?
32:49 - How Did The Tone Model Captures Turn Out?
34:28 - Conclusions
37:25 - Tonex Wrecked Z Ultimate & Direct Tone Models
38:32 - Line 6 Marketplace Interstate Z Ultimate Preset (Helix)
As always, thanks so much for watching...
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This guy should be paid by IK Multimedia he's doing what the company should've been doing a long time ago.
Exactly he is making a huge manual into proper Shorter easier to understand Tutorials, he should be paid for these. Another guy downloaded the Tonex Manual and said it was like 500 pages long, sounds really excessive to me.
This is definitely a topic that most people could do with listening to you on. I recently had this epiphany and I am so glad I did! Good work Jason. 👏
I just tried setting my preamp gain to zero and Amplitube set to +14 and vice versa as I usually do for that guitar. It sounds the same.
Thank you so much Jason! As I'm waiting for delivery of my brand new Helix floor, I'm very happy to know I can trust its direct signal recording level and not think of it and get the best possible results. Keep up the great work!
Super clear explanation of a complex subject that has so many conflicting opinions written / presented about it. The evidence demonstrated for each point you make has really helped me to get my head around how to set up my inputs for amp modellers in my DAW. Thanks Jason!
Absolutely awesome video and description of your process. This confirmed so much for me!
Thanks!!!
Glad it was helpful!
This is one of the most important amp modeling related videos I ever watched, thank you so much! ❤💪🏻
My pleasure and glad it was helpful
Thanks, Jason; this is THE VIDEO I wished for on Instagram!!
I look forward to checking out my Shuriken/Helix LT FX combo served up via the TONEX pedal!!
Excellent video and I love the song at the end. I don't have this modeller, I have a Quad Cortex, but, I reckon the same applies. I have been setting my input wrong with this since the day I bought it. I will try this tonight to see... I suspect that I will will not be disappointed with the clean amp sounds going forward. Thank you!!
Most important amp modeler video. Seriously. Thank you! 👍
Exactly answers what I struggle with right now :) Thanks
This should be audio interface 101, this is the first thing you need to learn. By far, the best information and explanation of this subject. Excellent video. Nice Satriani vibe playing at the end.
THANK YOU! Since the release of ToneX, Ive asked, Cordy, Steve and a lot of other people online this question and people have very different results as theres no super definite answer out there. It always bothered me how HX Native and Neural are meant to operate at an instrument level while Amplitube and ToneX (according to the documentation) tell you to essentially boost the guitar input before it starts clipping. Thanks for giving a clear and definite answer and giving me sleep and peace of mind now while recording
Wow, great discovery, thanks for putting this together. 😊
I was wondering why some plugins modeled after the real amps (which I owned over time, some of them I still own) are sounding different.
@16:05 is the fact where everything makes sense. The signal moves up and down around -18 dBFS on digital, which is 0 VU on analog meters.
Back in the day of analog recording, no one would want to go over 0 too much.
Now, watching some other youtube videos I realized that some companies are modelling their plugins with a very low input. For example the Rectifier from Amplitube 5 doesn't sound any close to the real amp at the same gain level, so you need to compensate with a clean boost plugin.
Some people went to great lengths and contact the plugin makers, and put together lists for which plugin needs how much boost. Apparently the only one that doesn't need any boost is Neural DSP. For instance, Rectifier from Amplitube needs +12 dB in order to sound like the real amp.
What about going into a d.i. Box and then into mic pre? The thing is, i have one d.i. for guitar input, then i have a stereo reamp box/d.i. (ART Dual RDB )that i use for capturing. Great videos!
Thank you. Great video, extremely helpful.
My pleasure and glad it was helpful :-)
this video is very useful
Am I right to understand?
Is claret a minimum gain with hi-z input and not effected helix USB audio interface output?
Nice analysis Jason!
Excellent explanation!
Question... Where in this setup would an I/O box fit in, pre or post instrument in on the Helix? Or would you use one? Or is it built in somewhere?
Bought your Cali-V Giant bundle and the JCM-800 bundle. Love them keep it up!
Thank you so much John! So glad you are enjoying them! Much more to come...
Trying this out.
I get the idea as it's similar to how i used to set up my Boss GT1000, get the level right for my lowest output guitar (strat/single coils) and leave it there. My Les Paul/Humbuckers pushed the front end more but to me it was more natural.
Problem I'm having following this is that the RMS and Peak levels are very different.
I'm using a Focusrite 18i20 3rd gen and strat with single coils, instrument level with no added gain on the input
and I'm getting RMS at 23 and a Peak of 17.
I can use the input pad and add a little gain to make RMS 29 but the peak is around 19.
Is the RMS level or the peak level setting the more relevant?
IS this concept also applicable for setting the input signal on an AxeFx III? Should we just leave it near unity and not boost it?
Thank you so much for making this video, Jason! I've had tons of questions about this but the only thing I've found was making sure peaks were at -6 dbFS. Some people have specifically recommended using a DI box, which I'm now using, to try and get better tone, but I'm going to do some experimentation within the -36 to -12 dbFS range.
That said:
1. Depending on audio interface, do you think for optimal results someone would need to execute a similar test to what you're describing?
2. Using a DI box, how would one essentially "zero" the input gain to get the most natural results? Play around and see what sounds best?
3. I have a partscaster with a Seymour Duncan JB, and using my Apollo Hi-Z input at 0 gain, it's still clipping and there's no pad available for the Hi-Z. What would be a solution for that?
Thanks for the wisdom, as always!
Following up on this... I was playing with the suggested gain levels, reading from the Apollo's console screens, and got some pretty strange results. The high gain amps sounded clean in ToneX.
In the Apollo manual, regarding setting the gain level, it says:
Adjust the input channel's gain by rotating the LEVEL knob (11) until the input meter for the channel (4) approaches maximum, but does not reach the red clip LED when the loudest input signal is present. If the level is too high to avoid clipping (when the red “C” LED illuminates), enable the PAD (6-d).
There also appears to be at least a slight discrepancy in the input level shown in my DAW vs. what Apollo is showing. I know this isn't a UA Apollo troubleshooting channel, but I'm sure lots of folks use them, so I'd love to hear some insight on that end.
hey jason , do you know why i go to audio settings on the player it says warning can`t open the input device.
Great video! I use HX FX ti control my ToneX pedal via midi. Unfortunately there a lot of delay in changing presets. There's a solution?
I'm a bit confused. So say I go from my ToneX pedal straight into my interface. Which has Instrument inputs and Mic/Line inputs... Which one would be best to go into? And both should be kept at input level -12?
Can you use the Helix (lt) as a reamp box for a tube amp? (Revv 120) if the helix is NOT the interface
Excellent video.
Thank you! I asked myselve the same question and you had the answer. I have a Schecter with a Duncan jb, a 335 with a low output Pickups and a strat. When the Input in the Interface should be at -5db then i had to Change the Input everytime i change the guitar. Thats Not what i want. I want to use the tonex Software like my amps. And even more important: when i bring Up the level when i plug in the strat or the 335 they will Push the amp Like the Schecter with the duncan JBs and thats not how it should be!
Great video! I have a focusrite 2i2 3rd gen and have been raising the instrument input gain just to the point of no clipping, but bringing the gain down to 0 would be closer to the same signal going into a real amp? I use Amplitube 5 to track guitars and want to feed it the most realistic signal possible.
Thank you! The reason that working with the instrument input set lower is more realistic is that you will then be leaving more headroom for various guitars and avoiding the need to change the instrument level for each guitar. For instance, if I set my level to just below clipping for my lower output Strat style guitar and then plug a guitar in with higher output pickups it will then need to be lowered to avoid clipping. We now have a situation where the guitar are not acting in a realistic manner relative to each other and how they would sound if we plugged them into a real amp. By leaving ample headroom (i.e running the instrument level lower) you avoid the need to constantly change input levels for each guitar and therefore have a more realistic representation of each instrument. Hope that helps :-)
I want to than you for that video. I had problem with tone and overcomplicated my setup. Now I will just record using plugin and then re-amp my amp.
Guitar into pedal board into amp or straight into amp...sounds great, feels great.
Guitar into Helix LT...sounds bad, feels awful, but with enough jerking around I can get some good sounds, particularly clean or cleanish sounds.
Guitar into Helix Native or whatever VST...sounds great with very little effort.
I've finally accepted there's something wrong with my Helix LT. If I were to download a preset or build one that's exactly like one from your videos or John Cordy's videos, I have to put a gain block in front of everything at like +8 or +10 db to get them to somewhat match. If I don't, everything sounds weak and it feels so nasty and crappy to play. And if I'm playing a guitar with regular single coils, the noise is awful with the gain block on.
Same preset with native, I don't need the gain block at all.
For a while I thought it was cables. It ain't that. It's this LT. If I use the LT as an interface, it also sucks. I have a Stomp, too, but a friend of mine has had it for a while. I need to get it back and compare but I think I had the same problem with it. I really don't know. I was brand new to modeling when I got it, then I got the LT and moved the Stomp to a pedalboard for use with an amp. It sounded fine for that. That's how she's using it and I've heard no complaints.
I know this wasn't the topic of this video, but it got me to thinking about my problem again.
This is a particularly relevant video since Line 6 dropped the cost for Helix Native for Helix and family owners by $50. I was holding off after they lifted the last price drop waiting for the next one. Now is the time to buy.
Jason you are the hardest workin man on TH-cam!
Haha, thank you 😀
Can you do a video on capturing an amp without the capture box. The routing involved with just an amp, interface, daw and Tonex? If you have already, could you please direct me to it.
Hi Jason love the videos, I have always increased my input level not for s/n ratio but to use the FS input of the AD to get the best representation. Why would you not do this and then turn the signal level back down to instrument level when needed (re amp)? Genuinely curious.
Thank you! Just curious what "better representation" you feel you are getting by artificially boosting the voltage coming out of your guitar? I set my Instrument level input so that a 0dbu signal will equal -11.5 dbfs and have never seen any benefit in boosting beyond that. If a particular modeling software solution is expecting to see more than that than I would handle the level adjustment within the given piece of software. In the video I explain very clearly why I actually avoid artificially boosting the signal as to leave ample headroom for different guitars and avoid the need for constant adjustments between guitars that does nothing other than misrepresent the actual signal coming from each instrument. Hope that clarifies :-)
@@JasonSadites the reason for increasing the signal going into an a/d is to take the advantage of the full range, why have a 24 bit a/d if you are only going to use a small portion of it. After you convert the signal then you can decrease it's level.
@steveterwilliger6744 that is looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist though. I mean anyone can do things how ever they want, but you aren't gaining anything by working that way. Just my two cents 😀
@@JasonSadites thanks Jason I've learned a lot about my Tonex from your videos.
Personally, I'm not worried about re-amping. I look at the input level in my Focusrite control app and adjust the input gain so that it peaks around -15-ish or slightly over. That way I'm limiting the effect of pickup output on saturation.
Hey Jason, great vid. So in summary, just a tiny bit above zero on the interface gain is the most realistic setting?
Have i got that right?
Thanks so much! It really depends on which interface. Each one is a little different. I aim for having a 0 dbu signal hitting the Instrument input to be equal to -11.5 dbfs. That is what the Helix guitar input is. The Focusrite Clarett+ needs a little gain added to get to that range. I have an Audient Evo interface that I have to cut the gain by 1db to get it right, but it would be close enough without any change. The point I was trying to make is with most modern interfaces you will be better off leaving the instrument input level alone than cranking it up to just below clipping as so many suggest. Once you have calibrated your instrument level input you can then deal with levels withing the software modeler of choice if need be. Hope that helps :-)
@@JasonSadites ive using a scarlett 2i2 2nd generation. Yes, that makes sense. In fact, your rationale for input settings is so intuitive, I don't know why everyone else advocates boosting the gain.
To my limited technical understanding, if you clip at the interface you’re losing information you are not gonna recover. HOWEVER, within you daw you can clip at some point and recover that information. For instance, you can clip the input level within Tonex Plugin and lower the output and it’s fine. I’m saying this because I did run several tests in my end and in many cases doing this makes for a better tone. This does introduce extra noise though, so that’s something to consider.
to be fair, some VST software recommend that you DO turn up the gain to the point of nearly clipping for the best results. some VST software have an auto setting that you can select that will FURTHER boost the input a little more on top of the almost clipped level to reach what it deems an appropriate level... and these software(s) do sound good at these settings. i also get your perspective on it, it makes sense... and helix native does require a much lower input setting to reach its optimum level compared to the other VSTs. All this to say I think it depends on which software you use, as perhaps they have different digital reference levels they use. I find that amplitube, specifically, seems to require much hotter signal on some amp models to sound good/more accurate to their real life counterparts. anyway, just some thoughts... you got some good content on here I dig it
Damn this is fine piece of education here… just because I noticed it isn’t part of your setup: Could you briefly explain in your kind words what exactly a DI Box is used for? „converting unbalanced or high-impedance instrument signals…“ blah blah wtf 😅
Cause I’ve often get the impression folks prefer using an DI Box into a MIC input over using an instrument input especially when it’s about very heavy guitar tones. Why could this be a thing or what is the difference of these setups?
Regarding Line 6’s suggestion of running into interface at Inst level, what if we are using a DI in between the guitar and interface? Is a line level signal not as good as inst direct to interface? I love how my Radial DI sounds going into Helix Native but I had to boost the input gain a bit to get in the sweet spot. Appreciate the vid cause I’ve certainly noticed that difference between hardware helix and software helix.
Hey Devin, absolutely no issue utilizing the Radial DI if you prefer that method. Since the DI is converting your Instrument to the mic level using the DI, you will need to add some gain to get it back in the proper zone. You can do this by comparing the levels to the raw DI from you hardware Helix. Once you get those the same, just leave it and get on with playing :-) Hope that helps!
@@JasonSadites awesome thanks man!
Has anyone got around the problem of fuzzes in helix native? not having the ability to change the input impedance is killing my sound (I'm using a focusrite solo 4th gen with the inst button pressed and input gain to 0)
The scary part is that the software is telling people to attenuate it, when they should not. And I wonder how many presets/captures get sent to TONENET from others that they followed the wrong information on. Thanks for setting the RECORD straight. And I guess it would be buyer beware if buying others Captures too, must be from at least somewhat reliable sources, I would think? And Tonenet has been around much longer than the PEDAL has. And Thanks again for being such a recording expert on these Subjects.
This is why I NEVER (and will NOT EVER, until it breaks) have gotten rid of my trusty old Korg Tuner with a buffer. I use my mini "Pedalboard" (the Korg DT10 plus a Dunlop CryBaby) when I plug anything into something.
Everything else has to adapt to this Level and my Helixe Stomp, my Behringer UMC22, my 4 Amps and also my Boss Looper work just fine. Also with different presets, created by different persons (for example Jason Sadites ;) ).
I use different guitars and even active basses. I never have to boost the input stage! Other than with a gazillion drive pedals, of course ;)
thx for clearing this topic up. It can't be stretched and emphasized enough. So many people doing horrible stuff to poor poor innocent signals, I really don't get how they all gotten to this behavior...
Hi Jason,
Hopefully you know the "Urban Loudness Meter"?
It is a nice tool to adjust the loudness of my patches.
Question: Which parameter would you refer to?
It has several options as VU-meter; PPM-meter; or those other weird meters as CBS, ITU ect.?
Greetz from
Beutel
I find it interesting that many people like to argue the result of another person's test but don't have any actual data or test results to reference themselves. I think this is ironic because no matter how bad the test and or results are (hypothetically, your testing is amazing since you look to falsify your hypothesis which rules out user bias, generally speaking) and no matter how flawed any test is, a bad test is still better than presumptive rhetoric.
There's a problen thoiugh, and it's a big one - the developers of different amp plugins are NOT calibrating the guitar input level into the plugin to the same level. S-Gear, for example, requires a significantly higher input level than BIAS FX or Tonex.
This is very true, so I would deal with that within each piece of software and still just leave my Instrument Input where I have always had it.
@@JasonSadites I did try to do that within S-Gear (3.1.2) but there was not enough input gain ('INPUT' knob in bottom block 'S-GEAR I/O') to make a significant difference.
I'm using an RME Fireface 802 interface, plugging into front combo input '9', setting 'INST' for that channel in TotalMix interface software. The Gain knob on the interface goes from +6 to +60, and I'm having to turn it up to around +30 (whereas I can leave this at +6 for Tonex/BIAS). It is interesting the Fireface Gain knob starts at +6 rather than 0. Nevertheless, I do have to adjust it for the different plugins.
I've never been happy with any clean or edge of breakup sound - they've been greatly different in sound quality compared to all the TH-cam demos, making me think there's something basic I'm still doing wrong.
Hey Chris, it just so happens that you are using an audio interface that has quite a large amount of headroom. The specs that I see for the Fireface 802 are that on the instrument input the Max Input Level with the Gain knob at minimum (+6) is +21 dBu. What that means is to get it to the level I am discussing in the video you would need to add about 10 dB of gain. I discuss how you can calibrate that in this video about Tonex, but it will work with your interface also: th-cam.com/video/AAL9AEWkoDM/w-d-xo.htmlsi=CkBS_JXAh-uQtLZM&t=237 Once you have that input set, you will then not have to add so much gain in the S-Gear plug-in. Let me know if that helps :-)
@@JasonSadites Huge, huge thanks for finding this out! I'll try this out this week and report back. Cheers.
My pleasure and let me know how it goes 😀
Input impedance. Understand it
Absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this video.
Ahhhh the days of just plugging into a valve amp and winding up the volume. :)
Yeah, but who has TWO guitars? LOL
🤣