Inverting The Pyramid with Jonathan Wilson
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ย. 2022
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In the first episode of a new podcast Tifo Talks, Jon Mackenzie sits down with author Jonathan Wilson to look back on his ground-breaking book Inverting the Pyramid.
Viewed by many as one of the most important books in football literature and actually used on UEFA coaching courses, the two talk through just how the book helped shaped football thinking for the modern era.
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Music sourced from epidemicsound.com
Additional footage sourced from freestockfootagearchive.com
#premierleague #tactics - กีฬา
Well, I wasn't expecting a discussion centred on the epistemology of football tactics this morning, but I am glad for it.
Agreed .
Most tifo comment of all time
Same!
This is a really brilliant conversation, interview, and discussion. Expertly facilitated, Jon. Looking forward to more Tifo Talks.
The end of this discussion about how local towns feed English culture through football is a very important thing. Too often we talk about hooliganism but not the positive aspects. I appreciated that a lot and hope more of this will come up in the future.
Honestly the whole conversation was incredible.
More Hegel and Foucault discussions in future, please - you utterly wonderful, beautiful nerds
I concur with this comment, and I very much concur with your profile picture.
I bought Inverting The Pyramid from a book store many years ago by my own interest. Haven't regretted it a bit, it's wonderful work; one of the best football books there. I greatly recommend it to anyone who's new to football, or anyone unaware about how the modern formations and gameplay came about. Thank you Mr. Wilson for your work. A fan.
This might be inane but is the book focused on tactics or on the people behind the tactics and stories surrounding the games?
I struggle to keep up with purely tactical writing, maybe I just lack the imagination required but would love to buy this from a football history fan pov
@@Aanike09 It isn't a coaching manual. As in it doesn't go too deep into drills and stuff, but how the general game has evolved since its inception, and what led to the evolution. Mainly the shapes and style of plays.
There are also things like how rugby and football split up and the reasons for it, how offside laws came about and changed, the public perception of game then and now etc.
So it's a mix of both. Anyone with a basic understanding of football formation will have no issue grasping it. I'm not a coach myself. 🙂
@@hnaku8748 thank you!
The occasional book recommendation on the Tifo pod has always been appreciated so this series is right up my alley!
Genuinely fascinating to hear Foucault's quote about the epoch of space applied to football, especially considering that the way in which the professionalisation of sport is a recent invention of late modernity and that this phenomenon has been completely normalised, and is arguably under-researched by cultural and social theorists.
If you read modern psychoanalysts like Lacan or Zizek, this is everywhere. They emphasize on the ideas like Netherlands as a country focusing on space and the dutch football focusing on it too. What you see in the superficial world applies to the more abstract things too, in their theories.
This is absolutely brilliant. I totally love how a history of football tactics ends (and an amazing book) ends up also being a kind of sociology of knowledge and the movement of ideas, which can then slide effortlessly into a place where dropping a bit of Foucault is not out of place at all. Cool. Next up, how the role of the raumdeuter is secretly directly inspired by the Situationist Internationale's practices of psychogeography? I'm definitely up for that.
I've done some work for FIFA here and there and have been lucky enough to chat to pros and coaches on these topics. Zidane once told me that he didn't consider anyone a striker until they were in the box, and that anyone too far from the ball might as well be off the pitch. He trained his players to pass the ball into space, providing both passer and receiver could identify where the ball and receiver would intersect. He compared it to a meeting place, street corner etc where ball and target player should meet at the same time. He also wanted players to attack through the middle and avoid the wings if possible, as you are moving further from the oppositions danger zone. The converse was true when playing out of defence. He expected players to work on their fitness and technique off the training ground and placed great emphasis on players strengthening their weak points. Very cool and humble guy and had time for everyone, no matter their status.
This is great! I'm really glad to see you guys doing this stuff again. I'm absolutely here for long form chats with football writers. Really appreciate it!
Wilson always brilliant. V Good interviewing as well Jon, great questions and guided the discussion well to make it very engaging.
Listened to this on Spotify this morning and felt compelled to come on here to comment. This was awesome. Could listen to Jonathan talk all day. Please have him back on at some point.
Looking forward to the next one in this series
I’ve been a football lover for many years of my life. It was when I read this book, of which I’ve done multiply times, is where I formed the real foundation of my tactical knowledge. It opened my eyes for sure
I haven't watched 1 second of this and already know this is going to be the greatest video ever.
I was right
Oh my goodness, one of the coolest books in recent years
This is so good. The other FT journalist mentioned is Simon Kuper I presume?
Top, top conversation, Jon. Well done. Thanks to Mr. Wilson for coming in and discussing his work. Cheers, Tifo.
Must say that was an excellent podcast, absolutely love Mr Wilson, very genuine, intelligent, and seems to have his heart in the right place.
Wilson's writing is fantastic, particularly being almost 40, from the US, and not gaining exposure to some of the football 'canon' growing up that kids my age across the pond grew up with, or that the internet is able to provide today.
He is British tho, isn't he?
@@yugam-jain no, the poster was saying he is from the U.S.
I cant say how many times I've fallen asleep to this podcast. such a dulcet voice
After years of merely hearing his voice on a well known ‘rival’ podcast and some old sky sports footage it’s great to actually see the legend that is Wilson
That Foucault quote ❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥 Lovely stuff Jon
Jon really leaning into the football-hipster label by dropping both Hagel and Foucault references in an interview about the history of football tactics. The football men are going to have a field day with this one.
In his defense, the whole thesis-antithesis-synthesis thing is what everybody knows about Hegel. It would have felt more affected if he hadn't mentioned it
I still have my original copy Inverting the Pyramid, right next to my copy of Fever Pitch. Amazing books I suggest anyone that likes footy to read. What's eye opening for me is that he begins the book with Ye Olde 2-3-5 formation that has now resurfaced in a way through Guardiola, so the pyramid isn't inverting it's kinda going from one extreme to the other in regards to offensive/defensive styles/formations.
Video about the history of pressing (soviet, dutch and english) would be super interesting
Seconding this, in particular how the Soviet version of pressing relates to the other better known versions.
The Soviet Dynamo Kiev strand inspired Rangnick and many other German pressing pioneers.
While not much is known about how the idea was inspired, Viktor Maslov seemed to have wanted to dominate and overman the opposition throughout the pitch - especially in key areas.
The idea of pressing as a means to unnerve the opponent and win the ball in advantageous areas might have arisen from this.
Circumstances also seem to have allowed for this idea to develop; after all - nutrition, pharmacy, the psychological and physical preparation for sports had all advanced significantly since the 30s and 40s. Moreover, government subsidies and investment in sports had grown a lot. So Maslov not only had brilliant ideas at the time, but also had the means to put them in action.
I'm certain that there's a lot more to it, but that's a brief explanation I can think of right now :)
This is probably one of the best discussions regarding tactics on youtube, coming from the man himself. Thanks Tifo! Great insights
1. Love Wilson's wide range of knowledge. Personally I love football, Hegel and sociohistorical analysis of tatical changes.
NOTE: Hegel didn't use the thesis, antithesis, synthesis thingy. It was Fichte and Kant before him. Hegel used affirmation, negation, negation of negation.
The Foucault quote was just brilliant.
2. Inverting the pyramid still fits for the book as a title. Every high level team ends attacking as old formations, with 5 up front.
I love these one off podcasts. You guys are the best.
Props to Jon, a marvellous conversation, made my morning better in many ways, looking to see more from this podcast
I'm so excited to see guest speakers back on the pod
One thing that came from Jonathan Wilson into football's mainstream consciousness was "tactics is the discovery and exploitation of space".
Maybe by the time he does a 6th edition, ideas like Chris Wilder's overlapping/underlapping centrebacks etc will also have made it in (though in fairness, it's more of an adaptation of Beckenbauer's libero position, just a bit less freedom and offensive responsibility)
England played with overlapping centre backs in Euro 96 to a certain degree when they played Pearce and Neville on the left and right in a three. However, Wilder systemised that and he did it in League 1.
This was amazing, more of this please!
This is a special podcast, thanks to all involved.
Great work, don’t know what I would do without this channel
More content like this please, most interesting video I've seen on the channel.
Jon, I'm very glad you're in the Tifo team. Great chat, look forward to the rest!
This was brilliant. More please.
Jonathan is my favorite author in the game. Thanks
Been wanting to read that book for ages! Great chat
i love seeing Jon thriving at Tifo :D love your stuff m8
Really enjoyed this, thank you!
35:45
Pressing always reminds me of playing soccer or touch in PE... with the non-sporty kids rushing after the ball and people who play in their free time hanging around occupying space/the positions they like more. And then "press resistant" players are essentially that best kid in the class who it doesn't really matter how much attention they're getting because the gulf in skill (or, sometimes, co-ordination) is just too vast.
In these situations I tended to prefer hanging around on the right wing because that's where you get the best opportunity for this brief exertion of effort where it's just you and the lucky player who emerged with the ball from the over-eager horde because that's the most fun part. I think back to that now and I just think of the "high line" critiques people throw at Manchester City and Liverpool, because that's effectively what this "system" creates.
In the most extreme example there was this PE lesson where we played basketball when I was 13/14. The basic idea was myself and most of my team-mates would struggle for the ball, then I'd have the ball and I'd lump it forward to "Sam", who'd run up and score in the open net/basket/whatever it's called. Our PE teacher watched this happen several times before blowing the whistle and pointing out what was happening. Suddenly "Sam" was marked and it didn't work at all. But the lesson here is that if you could somehow absorb all the pressure with just ten guys, then you could have the spare man hovering on the halfway line, just waiting for something to chase.
Ultimately I think the re-inversion, when you think of it like this, is possible because the teams that just give up and park the bus can't keep that player that is good enough and fast enough to consistently turn the "lump it forward" into goals. Which means there's no need to push your defence back, which means you can make your defenders your midfielders and your midfielders extra forwards. And it's the same if they find a press resistant star or an amazing distributor. Ultimately, what will happen is they get their breakout season, your whole team suddenly looks good and you're stripped for parts in the summer or, if you're especially unlucky, January. And the guy that was the star on your team sits on the bench wherever they've moved to.
Maybe it's too cynical but surging gives way to positional play in schools not because surging doesn't work, but because the people who try to play with even an approximation of positional discipline in PE lessons are either just better or are unfit "I like the occasional sprint rather than the constant jog" like myself. And I think pressing as it's enacted in the EPL proves this.
I could listen to this guy all day.
Read this a few years ago. A very interesting book.
first time i've actually seen jonathan wilson after only hearing him on the football weekly podcast
Lol right my two favorite football podcasts collide!
IT’S JON’S 8 PART PODCAST SERIES
A healthy listen just while playing FM ☺
Great stuff , really enjoyed this
I think this is the video we've assumed would happen for a long time, and it did not disappoint.
The football Bible for tactics nerds. Do the new editions new chapters to explain recent changes? I remember he wrote how football now is cold because it was the time of 4-2-3-1 counter attacking football.
very happy to see Tifo with La Media Inglesa. well done boys
I've been a fan of Jonathan's writing in the Guardian for a while now, and it's really cool to see the man himself speak
Hell yah. Love Jon in the Raps hoodie
Imho, the systemization of football provides a platform for lesser talented but hard working footballers to play a part in the highest level of football because it facilitates to hide their weakness and enhance their strengths
Agreed. Which really should mean that the ongoing consolidation of talent in the EPL should lead to sharper tactical focus and experimentation everywhere else, right?
@@MattVogt2 That comes with the trade. Human beings always look to make things sharper and efficient and so the same with football. Well they are also known for their innovation, aren't they?
This was brilliant. Thanks!
great pod, cheers
YES more long form FEED US LONG FORM
Bonus episode! Thank the Gods.
This is amazing!
One of the greatest tactical historians explaining his thought process.. incredibly interesting
I could listen to Jonathan Wilson talk all day.
This wasn't just a good book for tactics, but a phenomenal history book. Every game you watch is going to be affected by this in that you'll have this insane amount of context as to why each player is doing what they're doing and how that's changed over the years. Plus the conversations you can have after reading this are 5 steps above before. Guaranteed to make you the smartest guy in the room everywhere you go.
Amazing book. Highly recommended it
I loved this!
Fantastic!
This was exceptional
Re-50:00 the biggest difference between league and cup teams is the impact of a draw. Take Chelsea under Tuchel, not high scorers but hard to beat. His downfall was draws in the league (and behind the scenes stuff) but cup draws go to extra time and if Liverpool weren't better at penalties he'd have a relatively full trophy cabinet.
did you notice the book got a cameo in the first episode of 'ted lasso'
You better put all 8 of these on TH-cam. Even if there's no video.
Thanks Tifo….he did reference mentioned squad size but it would be great to know what Jonathan thinks about the impact of player fitness on football tactics as well!
Honestly one of the most interesting discussions on football I’ve ever heard. Anybody know of something similar I could listen to?
If feel like Nagelsmann’s problem in International football comes more from a mental thing than tactical. I remember when we played in the CL group stage under him in 18/19 we were on top in most games. But it felt like he was never willing to just hold a tight lead or draw and instead went full out attacking in the last third of the game and lost the games because of it.
He's a childhood Bayern fan. I suspect that night at the Camp Nou when Bayern tried to hold on to a lead and failed, losing the treble, has traumatized him for years. Hence, it is apparent he would rather go down fighting constantly and lose that way than sit back and hold on to luck and concentration to take him to the finish line like he should. If he grew up resenting Hitzfeld and his defensive mindset because of that, I am not surprised he would proudly wish to be attacking till the last minute when everyone else can see he shouldn't.
I love this
Top notch content 👌
One thing that's changed in the current discourse in the UK is that we have a much more Italian view than we used to. Italians never talked about positions but roles. We never talked about roles but positions. So now we're in a middle ground where it's not just about where you are but what it is you're doing there.
Excellent vid this
Wilson ageing like a fine wine
i love him...👌👌👌
Class .
Absolutely love Inverting the Pyramid, where can I find the other volumes of it
well that was absolutly wonderfull
That Foucault quote 🔥🔥🔥 Lovely stuff Jon
Jon x Jon, perfect.
Great that Tifo even provide us with vivid re-enactments of Johns wet dreams.
I thought about it and I'm still unsure whether there is still a new revolutionary tactic possible or everything was already tested and new tactics are a mix of different styles
24:56
I'd never heard of this book and initially thought it was going to be a what if on the idea of "which premier league team would win the top flight first if the PL was turned into the bottom tier of the football pyramid".
Then once I figured out it was tactics, I thought "oh, it's a book about how you went from 5-3-2 or whatever to what Manchester City does now".
And then it quickly became apparent that this was not a recent book and was instead talking about 1-9 formations developing in 4-4-2.
And then 24:56 and my second thought was vindicated.
Fantastic. Although I would have liked to see Wilson paired with Joe Divine.
I could listen to Jonathan Wilson talk about football tactics for about 7 minutes.
Jonathan the great
you should do this with the book Zonal marking
Hey, did you know that Nagelsman played a Bayern style of football at Leipzig, but has weirdly taken a Leipzig style of football to Bayern, which is kind of backwards?!
WHAT Really, someone should let that Jon fellow know sounds like something he'd find fascinating
Interesting writer !
Probably now we can talk about 're-inverting the pyramid', since teams again play with three-at-the-back, full or wing backs are almost as wingers and central midfielders are left alone in the middle, at least in attacking stages of the game. So, again, many, many years later the system is 3-2-5. Actually, 3-4-3 with a square in the middle is very much like the W-M.
from Toronto, love the Raptors hoodie, Jon!
Fingers crossed he talks about those dead children again! Classic Tifo moment.
What,
Any other great football books people can recommend?
I highly recommend you read Those Feet, Football Against the Enemy, The Mixer, and Zonal Marking.
The European game by Daniel Fieldsend, Soccernomics by Simon Kuper and Stefan Szymanski, The Numbers Game by Chris Anderson and David Sally, Moving the Goalposts by Rob Jovanovic
The bible of football tactics.
Tremendous...
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8 parts damn