Leaving a comment mostly to see eventual replies, but as far as i can tell, 19x19 josekis don't work for a 13x13. They're far too slow and conservative. What i mostly see in 13x13 is a battle to split the board in half, trying to get the slightly bigger slice. Trying to live in a corner (which is part of what 19x19 josekis try to accomplish) is basically handing your opponent free reign over the rest of the board. 19x19 is a race of taking small and calculated bites, trying to not bite off more than you can chew. It's an endurance game. 13x13 is a sprint. You're trying to bite off as much of the board as you can before your opponent gets a chance to. Again, this is only what i understand of these two boards. I'm only a beginner myself, so corrections are most welcomed.
@@CristiNeagu thanks for your response! As far as I can tell, the split in half you are talking about takes place on 9x9 boards but not necessarily on 13x13 .. this board size takes a position right in between the 19x19 and the 9x9, what makes it so difficult for me to get a feeling for the right strategy. Michael used a basic 3-3 invasion joseki in this video, which you also use on the 19x19 .. so I guess this is one example of a similar approach, while there are situations where a strategy you use on the bigger board would be inappropriate I guess. As I‘m writing I see that this may be the whole art of the game and there may not be one correct answer for every situation. Thank you Michael for introducing us into this beautiful game !
I played a lot of games o 13x13 and it feels similar to 19x19 but with heavier focus on corners and sides and less on the center (because it's much smaller). For example playing 4 4 point seems weaker than in 19x19 because your opponent will play 3 3 point and snatch your corner right away, and influence that you'll get will result in smaller potential territory than in 19x19. So players play 3 4 a lot more than 4 4.
I like how Mike introduces himself as if he's just in your IT department or something. You're a hero of the West, Michael. I hope you get to experience a fraction of the joy you've brought to the world.
Ultimately this is the best beginner's tutorial on youtube - everyone is saying that Go is very complicated and of course it is but this videos explains things so clearly and without overwhelming the viewer. TOP CONTENT.
Thank you for this brilliant lesson, your explanations are very clear, easy to follow and most of all mindful of beginners. I feel comfortable playing on a 9x9 board but advancing to larger sizes has been quite an intimidating idea. Well, not anymore, after seeing these lectures I no longer feel like I have no idea what’s going on and can actually form a plan.
Thank you so much for making this! I've just started playing go and the only board I have right now is a 13x13. I've been wanting to see more 13x13 gameplays and the gods have answered my prayers. Cheers from the Philippines, Michael!
I really like your calm way of explaining things. And I appreciate that a professional Go player still remembers all the questions a beginner might have :)
I've played three thousand or so of 13×13 Go on a site called Go Quest. I'm 2 kye though I've beaten 1 dan's on occasion. I've chosen not to know my opponent's rating in advance the site gives this option and believe me this works as it takes the intimation factor out so one feels free to experiment and be more aggressive with cuts and so forth. To get to low single kyu and one dan one needs to add punch to one's game. If opportunity affords go for the big kill. Studying books like Kato's Attack and Kill will help lift your game. 13×13 is great if you want to develop this attacking spirit it hits the sweet spot between 9×9 where the strategy is quite shallow and the attacking opportunity limited and the intimidating Oceanic depths of 19×19. Go is a vast game I was brought up on chess came second in the Queensland juniors many years ago, won other stuff as well. I'm 62 now my mind is sharp, I believe I love Go more than chess though I still find it fun play. Go is endlessly fascinating and will remain more or less a mystery to me till my dying day. I started late and pretty much self taught from books, still I reckon I can get to one dan one day soon.
Great information I just started playing as a result of the Alpha Go video and this gives me a great start as I was without a foundation until now. Thank You!
Thank you for this video! I just stumbled across this in the recommended section. As I am still learning how to play this game (about a year now virtually), I was never taught the rules of counting. This video has really helped me understand counting at the end of the game. Thank you Michael for all of these helpful videos!
I love it! I specifically searched for a tutorial from you on youtube. I hope there will be more guides on specific scenarios or strategies in go games!
Hi Michael, I am new to your channel and I am greateful that you share your experience with us. I admire your consequence in publishing videos. Making such materials available in English is a true gem. I will keep learning from you!
Another excellent video. Perhaps in a future video you might briefly explain why moving stones around before counting doesn’t alter the score. This may not be obvious, especially to any very young learners.
A question about komi. Is the komi adjusted for the size of the board? i.e would a game on a 9x9 board have the same komi as one on a 13x13 or 19x19? I ask because the point totals are smaller on a smaller board, so 6.5 points is a much bigger adjustment than on a larger board. I am still trying to grasp the game and have a computer Go game that allows me to set the komi. I generally use 1.5 for a 9x9 board, 3.5 for 13x13 and 6.5 for 19x19. By the way, thank you for these videos. They are a great learning tool and just watching with the explanation helps me a great deal. I may even get to be a single digit kyu player! Woo hoo!
Intuitively it might seem natural to assume that smaller boards should have a smaller komi. However at high skill levels the komi for 9x9 or 13x13 is the same 6.5, so that is why most apps will have a default komi that is the same regardless of board size. Our research of the 9x9 is deep enough that we are reasonably sure that we have that one right. That said, some specific knowledge of 9x9 openings would be necessary for Black to even approach a 7 pt win, so it's ok for you to choose a komi size when playing against an app.
@@MichaelRedmondsGoTV All right. I would not mind seeing the research, but even you point out that 7 points on a 9X9 board is very difficult among even players. That indicates to me, in a mathematical sense, that a 6.5 komi on that board is a huge benefit for white. That defeats the purpose of a system to bring the final score on par. Look at it this way. When the average size of territory is about 25 points, a 6.5 komi adds 25% to those points. When the average size of territory is about 70 points, the 6.5 komi is less than 10%. That is just straight up math. Is that true for the game with all its variable? Good question. That is why I would not mind seeing the research.
P.S. I have been giving this some thought, and without reams of evidence to support or refute it, my hypothesis (in counter-argument to myself no less) is to consider the number of moves based on the size of the board. The larger the board, the higher the number of moves and the less of an effect moving first has. There are far fewer moves on a 9X9 board than on a 19X19. That first move on the smaller board has more influence than on the larger board. Consider a 5X5 board. Just 25 points to play on. That first move is huge. About half the board will be filled by stones in a game which is about 12, leaving 13. That is 6 points for one and 7 for the other. That first move with initiative makes grabbing more territory easier. 6.5 points easier? Perhaps. Black would need 10 points to win since White would have 3 plus the komi. In fact, just surviving the game would be a win for either in that restricted area. Now consider a 99X99 board. Yes, ninety-nine by ninety-nine. First move is barely an issue since scores would be in the hundreds. In other words, 6.5 points is negligible. So, all right. I suppose 6.5 points regardless of board size does come out as about the average compensation for moving second ... mathematically, logically, and empirically too from "research." Put succinctly, I do accept your assertion that 6.5 komi regardless of board size is correct. Thank you for inspiring me to think it through and arrive at some rationale besides "that is the way it has always been."
@@michaelsteven5558 I found this an interesting topic... my gut tells me that this is more about the value of the extra stone/move, and it's local influence, which is the effectively the same no matter the size of the board.
Both 3rd and 4th corner moves were called 3-4 points here, yet they differ from each other. What is the convention for notation using numbers, given than one side seems to count the 3 one way, the other side a different way?
At 20:13, you fill two gaps real quick, black and white. Is this after both players have agreed that it's over? Do the neutral points have to be played out before or after players agree to end?
Thank you! Where can I get a program that does all the counting and projected points? What is it called? Not an app to play. But a board like what you use here.
at about 12 minutes when black plays M11 explain please why or why not k11 better? thank you. enjoy all your tutorials. you are brilliant and kind.. thank you.
Both are good shapes. In this position where Black hopes to make it difficult for White to live on the right, M11 does a better job of taking away White's space on the second line.
In the video ”Good Shapes For Go Beginners” I discuss solid and diagonal connections. th-cam.com/video/f1StapE-Qvg/w-d-xo.html When compared to a solid connection, looser connections such as the diagonal connection or the one-space jump can be efficient in controlling larger areas of the board, but are less secure. Thus, when the opponent invests a move in threatening to attack, it often becomes necessary to parry the threatened attack by adding a stone to reinforce the connection.
Assuming you mean Black's move at L11 and suggest Black L9 instead, White generally has enough space to live in the corner when White's stones are on the 3rd line.
Thank you very much for this video. I started playing go exactly a month ago, and I'm still trying to understand the more tactical aspects of the game so I think that 13x13 is a good size to play for me at the moment. But what I am not so certain of is why invading territory like at 19:30 is a bad move; couldn't black potentially force white to take those stones in a way that costs white more than those 3 points are worth as the territory is filled up?
The plan was that it will be discussed in a more advanced video, I didn't want to squeeze too much in one lesson. Since you asked, the dead Black stones are used to reduce the Black territory, and it all evens out.
I don't understand why good players would want to play joseki, doesn't that make the game predictable and rather boring? It seems to be just trading. Excuse my ignorance!
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 85 | คู่เอก "ยอดเหล็กเพชร vs ผึ้งหลวง"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Qq_19bnnxEo/mqdefault.jpg)
Are there josekis, which are only or more commonly played on the 13x13 or do you use exactly the same ones from the 19x19 board ?
Leaving a comment mostly to see eventual replies, but as far as i can tell, 19x19 josekis don't work for a 13x13. They're far too slow and conservative. What i mostly see in 13x13 is a battle to split the board in half, trying to get the slightly bigger slice. Trying to live in a corner (which is part of what 19x19 josekis try to accomplish) is basically handing your opponent free reign over the rest of the board.
19x19 is a race of taking small and calculated bites, trying to not bite off more than you can chew. It's an endurance game. 13x13 is a sprint. You're trying to bite off as much of the board as you can before your opponent gets a chance to.
Again, this is only what i understand of these two boards. I'm only a beginner myself, so corrections are most welcomed.
@@CristiNeagu thanks for your response! As far as I can tell, the split in half you are talking about takes place on 9x9 boards but not necessarily on 13x13 .. this board size takes a position right in between the 19x19 and the 9x9, what makes it so difficult for me to get a feeling for the right strategy. Michael used a basic 3-3 invasion joseki in this video, which you also use on the 19x19 .. so I guess this is one example of a similar approach, while there are situations where a strategy you use on the bigger board would be inappropriate I guess.
As I‘m writing I see that this may be the whole art of the game and there may not be one correct answer for every situation.
Thank you Michael for introducing us into this beautiful game !
@@SchawidDulze Very true. I'm trying to figure things out too.
I played a lot of games o 13x13 and it feels similar to 19x19 but with heavier focus on corners and sides and less on the center (because it's much smaller). For example playing 4 4 point seems weaker than in 19x19 because your opponent will play 3 3 point and snatch your corner right away, and influence that you'll get will result in smaller potential territory than in 19x19. So players play 3 4 a lot more than 4 4.
@@Slyzor1 That definitely makes sense to me, thank you !
I like how Mike introduces himself as if he's just in your IT department or something.
You're a hero of the West, Michael. I hope you get to experience a fraction of the joy you've brought to the world.
"In go you're not allowed to move your stones around the board"
I keep trying to tell my 2 y/o this but he doesn't agree
Hell my seven year old also does not agree, nor does he agree that he should only get to place one stone at a time.
Makes for a challenging opponent… he’s probably 1 Dan using his hyper modern strategy
Great! Really rare to find 13x13 videos with such a quality! Thank you 😏
Almost 1D and still learning... Thank you.
Thank you very much, i was looking for
13x13 videos!
Ultimately this is the best beginner's tutorial on youtube - everyone is saying that Go is very complicated and of course it is but this videos explains things so clearly and without overwhelming the viewer. TOP CONTENT.
Thank you for this brilliant lesson, your explanations are very clear, easy to follow and most of all mindful of beginners. I feel comfortable playing on a 9x9 board but advancing to larger sizes has been quite an intimidating idea. Well, not anymore, after seeing these lectures I no longer feel like I have no idea what’s going on and can actually form a plan.
Love this beginner series that you're making. Keep 'em coming!
Thank you so much for making this! I've just started playing go and the only board I have right now is a 13x13. I've been wanting to see more 13x13 gameplays and the gods have answered my prayers. Cheers from the Philippines, Michael!
As a beginner I love this serie. Thanks for the good explanations!
I really like your calm way of explaining things. And I appreciate that a professional Go player still remembers all the questions a beginner might have :)
I've played three thousand or so of 13×13 Go on a site called Go Quest. I'm 2 kye though I've beaten 1 dan's on occasion. I've chosen not to know my opponent's rating in advance the site gives this option and believe me this works as it takes the intimation factor out so one feels free to experiment and be more aggressive with cuts and so forth. To get to low single kyu and one dan one needs to add punch to one's game. If opportunity affords go for the big kill. Studying books like Kato's Attack and Kill will help lift your game. 13×13 is great if you want to develop this attacking spirit it hits the sweet spot between 9×9 where the strategy is quite shallow and the attacking opportunity limited and the intimidating Oceanic depths of 19×19.
Go is a vast game I was brought up on chess came second in the Queensland juniors many years ago, won other stuff as well. I'm 62 now my mind is sharp, I believe I love Go more than chess though I still find it fun play. Go is endlessly fascinating and will remain more or less a mystery to me till my dying day. I started late and pretty much self taught from books, still I reckon I can get to one dan one day soon.
Great information I just started playing as a result of the Alpha Go video and this gives me a great start as I was without a foundation until now.
Thank You!
Thank you for this video! I just stumbled across this in the recommended section. As I am still learning how to play this game (about a year now virtually), I was never taught the rules of counting. This video has really helped me understand counting at the end of the game. Thank you Michael for all of these helpful videos!
Please please please upload more instructive material like this! You are a fantastic teacher! Thanks for this lecture, I enjoyed it a lot!
Super helpful and enjoyable to watch. I’ve shared with a few friends. Thanks!
I love it! I specifically searched for a tutorial from you on youtube. I hope there will be more guides on specific scenarios or strategies in go games!
Hi Michael, I am new to your channel and I am greateful that you share your experience with us. I admire your consequence in publishing videos. Making such materials available in English is a true gem. I will keep learning from you!
Another excellent video. Perhaps in a future video you might briefly explain why moving stones around before counting doesn’t alter the score. This may not be obvious, especially to any very young learners.
A question about komi. Is the komi adjusted for the size of the board? i.e would a game on a 9x9 board have the same komi as one on a 13x13 or 19x19? I ask because the point totals are smaller on a smaller board, so 6.5 points is a much bigger adjustment than on a larger board.
I am still trying to grasp the game and have a computer Go game that allows me to set the komi. I generally use 1.5 for a 9x9 board, 3.5 for 13x13 and 6.5 for 19x19.
By the way, thank you for these videos. They are a great learning tool and just watching with the explanation helps me a great deal. I may even get to be a single digit kyu player! Woo hoo!
Intuitively it might seem natural to assume that smaller boards should have a smaller komi. However at high skill levels the komi for 9x9 or 13x13 is the same 6.5, so that is why most apps will have a default komi that is the same regardless of board size. Our research of the 9x9 is deep enough that we are reasonably sure that we have that one right. That said, some specific knowledge of 9x9 openings would be necessary for Black to even approach a 7 pt win, so it's ok for you to choose a komi size when playing against an app.
@@MichaelRedmondsGoTV All right. I would not mind seeing the research, but even you point out that 7 points on a 9X9 board is very difficult among even players. That indicates to me, in a mathematical sense, that a 6.5 komi on that board is a huge benefit for white. That defeats the purpose of a system to bring the final score on par.
Look at it this way. When the average size of territory is about 25 points, a 6.5 komi adds 25% to those points. When the average size of territory is about 70 points, the 6.5 komi is less than 10%.
That is just straight up math. Is that true for the game with all its variable? Good question. That is why I would not mind seeing the research.
P.S. I have been giving this some thought, and without reams of evidence to support or refute it, my hypothesis (in counter-argument to myself no less) is to consider the number of moves based on the size of the board.
The larger the board, the higher the number of moves and the less of an effect moving first has. There are far fewer moves on a 9X9 board than on a 19X19. That first move on the smaller board has more influence than on the larger board.
Consider a 5X5 board. Just 25 points to play on. That first move is huge. About half the board will be filled by stones in a game which is about 12, leaving 13. That is 6 points for one and 7 for the other. That first move with initiative makes grabbing more territory easier. 6.5 points easier?
Perhaps. Black would need 10 points to win since White would have 3 plus the komi. In fact, just surviving the game would be a win for either in that restricted area.
Now consider a 99X99 board. Yes, ninety-nine by ninety-nine. First move is barely an issue since scores would be in the hundreds. In other words, 6.5 points is negligible.
So, all right. I suppose 6.5 points regardless of board size does come out as about the average compensation for moving second ... mathematically, logically, and empirically too from "research."
Put succinctly, I do accept your assertion that 6.5 komi regardless of board size is correct. Thank you for inspiring me to think it through and arrive at some rationale besides "that is the way it has always been."
@@michaelsteven5558 I found this an interesting topic... my gut tells me that this is more about the value of the extra stone/move, and it's local influence, which is the effectively the same no matter the size of the board.
Great video!
I am very very new to Go. I found it interesting that scored under Chinese rules, black ends up winning by .5 instead.
That can happen, for various reasons. If the Japanese komi was set at 5.5 or 7.5, the win-loss result would not change (usually).
Thank you!!
Both 3rd and 4th corner moves were called 3-4 points here, yet they differ from each other. What is the convention for notation using numbers, given than one side seems to count the 3 one way, the other side a different way?
At 20:13, you fill two gaps real quick, black and white. Is this after both players have agreed that it's over? Do the neutral points have to be played out before or after players agree to end?
Thank you! Where can I get a program that does all the counting and projected points? What is it called? Not an app to play. But a board like what you use here.
Gracias, muy didàctico.
at about 12 minutes when black plays M11 explain please why or why not k11 better? thank you. enjoy all your tutorials. you are brilliant and kind.. thank you.
Both are good shapes. In this position where Black hopes to make it difficult for White to live on the right, M11 does a better job of taking away White's space on the second line.
Hi there. Why do you call it a diagonal connection at 09:55 What is a diagonal connection compared to a "proper" connection?
In the video ”Good Shapes For Go Beginners” I discuss solid and diagonal connections.
th-cam.com/video/f1StapE-Qvg/w-d-xo.html
When compared to a solid connection, looser connections such as the diagonal connection or the one-space jump can be efficient in controlling larger areas of the board, but are less secure. Thus, when the opponent invests a move in threatening to attack, it often becomes necessary to parry the threatened attack by adding a stone to reinforce the connection.
@@MichaelRedmondsGoTV Thank you.
When playing in person as black, is it the etiquette to play in your upper right or your opponent's?
your upper right
When white attacks the upper right corner, why does black play at 11,11 instead of 9,9 to force white towards the edge per: chasing capture?
Assuming you mean Black's move at L11 and suggest Black L9 instead, White generally has enough space to live in the corner when White's stones are on the 3rd line.
Thank you very much for this video. I started playing go exactly a month ago, and I'm still trying to understand the more tactical aspects of the game so I think that 13x13 is a good size to play for me at the moment. But what I am not so certain of is why invading territory like at 19:30 is a bad move; couldn't black potentially force white to take those stones in a way that costs white more than those 3 points are worth as the territory is filled up?
The plan was that it will be discussed in a more advanced video, I didn't want to squeeze too much in one lesson. Since you asked, the dead Black stones are used to reduce the Black territory, and it all evens out.
Does the move G11 make the 3-3 invasion in the upper right less viable for white?
True to a certain extent, and the reason for my choosing the White attachment at L10 in this example game.
when ever I invade the 3x3 point against AI they play c12 and I cant figure out how to live
It would be helpful for you to create an actual playlist for the beginner videos in your description, thanks!
th-cam.com/play/PLW5_cMTm0wvamCNX7qNoUqbXxeHt9n67i.html
Good idea! The playlist link is now included in the description.
I don't understand why good players would want to play joseki, doesn't that make the game predictable and rather boring? It seems to be just trading. Excuse my ignorance!