I don't think the point in trying to derive universal myth patterns is to tell all myths share a common ancestry, for some people it is, don't get me wrong, but there is still a valid observation that can be made that unrelated human cultures may developp an interest in similar existential questions, pointing at the shared experience of human existence across space and time. That is more akin to metaphysical questioning than scientific endeavour, but it has its merits.
not only interest in the same questions, but what is most significant is if the myths in fact do have wholly independent origins, but people still come up with the same mythological explanation! i mean that points to some fundamental underlying truth shared by human experience in those cultures does it not?
I came here to comment this sentiment exactly. The "universal" in universal myth does not mean it's literally the same story that passes on and on, but rather that human psychology conjures up similar metaphors for shared human experiences and questions across time and geography. No one would argue that Skaldi and Quyeesquyes are literally the same story that can be traced back 15000 years, but they do have a shared theme and use similar symbolism even though they almost certainly arose independently of each other.
There are also a number of somewhat universal social behavior patterns across most cultures and across time, as well as themes involving them. It's no mystery that they show up in various cultures that are geographically and chronologically unconnected to each other.
@@mjinba07 It is the mystery to investigate, the point of the debate. When two completely separated cultures happen to create what we come to understand as the same archetypal mythical structure, what are we supposed to deduct ? Is it merely a shadow of our own biases or can we develop a predictive system to account for our intuition ? I tend to think there is some form of human universality to exhibit, but I'm forced to recognize we lack the tools to do so, and in the worst case there is a real possibility that such a reliable tool might unfortunately not ever exist.
Interesting example of this came up today: I was watching ReligionForBreakfast's new video on the Antichrist, and he told an Medieval story about the Antichrist turning himself into a pickled fish in a market and being bought and eaten by a woman. Afterwards, the woman became pregnant and gave birth to the Antichrist. This immediately reminded me of an Alaskan-native story I heard when I was a kid, possibly Tlingit in origin but I'm not sure. I don't remember the details of the story, I think it was about Raven stealing the Sun for man, but I do remember a part where Raven is trying to escape , and turns himself into a pine-needle and lands in a cup of tea a woman is drinking. The woman inadvertently drinks the needle, becomes pregnant, and gives birth to Raven.
I think, and if I get it right, this is the purpose of tales databases, that specific features of tales are shared between people and cultures, but we absolutely don't know the pace at which they travel throughout the world and I think that the way tales evolve when they are shared hasn't been studied systematically yet; it requires that first attestations of tales in every place, time and culture be gathered systematically.
Well, I'm a big fan of Carl Jung, and I don't find anything "infuriating" or "frustrating" about this video. I agree with Jackson here, that these things are hard and super volatile. My fascination is purely with human thought as expressed in stories, and I don't believe there was this "world mythos" that existed or anything, but rather myths in general are reflections of human nature and truths where ever one finds them. Big fan of your work Jackson, cheers!
@@BBC-dq3ki Well like you said they were vastly different cultures, it would be because of their environment. IE the weather, economics, community etc all of these things leave impacts on us that in stories unconsciously show themselves. There's also things called "Archetypes" it's an objective fact that all stories have some sort of similar archetypes yet it also makes sense as to why say India and Indians with their own unique culture would have differences than say the French, yet both are human so would share questions and emotions about the human experience.
@@BBC-dq3ki The stories we tell and the manner in which we tell them, are representations of our own desires, fears and neuroses. The shared elements of human stories across culture, continents and centuries tell us something about our shared nature, the primal and universal parts of our unconscious mind.
@@kingkoi6542 those archetypes that are an "objective fact" are the exact opposite. These archetypes are an oversimplification that is easily discredited the moment you take an even slightly critical look at what ever you are trying to make the case for being one of these archetypes. Most of these similarities you're talking about are cosmetic that people mistake for thematic because they look at both imagery and wording in the story through the same cultural context, typically their own, instead of the cultural context of each of there originated cultures.
@@kingkoi6542 the strongest case for any universal human nature you can make is that humans have a set of emotions and drives that people experience to varrying degrees. A good example is greed, everyone is capable of taking more than they need but not everyone feels compelled to do it.
I watch a lot of your videos and I must say thank you for having some of the best advertising on youtube. Nice and short inoffensive ads for stuff I actually want, basically every single video. Good taste in all things!
This was fascinating to listen to. For a few years, as I learn more about ancient cultures, I’ve noticed similarities in their myths, gods and beliefs seemingly irregardless of time and distance. I love how beautifully and perfectly put together our world is, and thought that if I could go back far enough, find enough similarities, that I might be able to get a picture of what peoples perceptions and mindsets were in the world’s younger years. I really appreciated Dr Crawford’s perspective of how unreliable stories are over thousands of years of retelling, and there really isn’t a way to know what happened so very long ago. I’ll just stick to admiring and appreciating our beautiful planet and the odd people that inhabit it.
A funny story about Kalevala: I read it in my 20's using the English translation as a sort of dictionary. There are many many words that are forgotten in Finnish since Kalevala was written, so I needed a dictionary to read it. Later I found out that there is a old Finnish - modern Finnish dictionary for that purpose. But anyway, that's how fast languages can change.
I recommend reading "The Turkish Language Reform: A Catastrophic Success" by Geoffrey Lewis, it's an interesting example of very fast (and here mostly engineered) language change.
This is my first experience with one of your rants...I have to say I enjoyed it! Intelligent and well thought out😊 The end clip of the snow falling was mesmerizing and put me in Zen mode! Thank you Dr. Crawford😁
Only recently found your channel, for which I'm truly grateful. As a retired therapist the psychology of humans is rooted in our evolution and modified by nurture and nature, from what is considered sacred to disgusting, the order of object subject verb in language, and the landscape the humans live within, which makes for interesting combinations. However, these combinations are not infinite so, it's not surprising that common themes/tropes are repeated within stories around the world that all begin from different starting points. And you can count me as one of the four or five people who will listen to your rants. Keep up the good work.
On a similar note. I’ve read translations of tales and myths from cultures and times very different from mine and been struck just by how dissimilar, how strange, how inscrutable some of the story elements are. If I were to hazard guesses to determine the deep meaning in them I think it is safe to say I would just be imposing my own particular intuitions rather than interpreting what was genuinely there. Even passages in something like Le Morte d’Arthur are utterly bewildering, and I would be a fool to try to find universal meaning. Maybe with a specialty in 13th c. French literature and Middle English I could attempt to say what was going on in terms of meaning, but it isn’t something to be ventured lightly.
Whenever I enter some house, building, bus, anything resembling an 'inside' area I take off my 'hat' (usually a knitted cap during winter since I don't like to use hats) and I will try to teach that to my grandsons too. Let's see how that's gonna go.
Perhaps the reasons behind your video creation and our patreon support can be found in the clearly real, obviously universal connection between every mythology ever and how it actually just ends up as Star Wars! Which is clearly the case because you turned Star Wars into an Old Norse saga :D
This video makes a good point. Comparative mythology between cultures with Indo-European languages has a certain validity, because they have a common origin. But the data set is very small, being limited to deity names and thematic elements, so the comparisons are limited. In a broader sense, the only paradigm for comparative mythology seems to be Jungian psychology and the idea that certain symbolic elements are hardwired into the human psyche and have an existence beyond the individual self in what Jung called the collective unconscious. Jung, however, very clearly counseled us amateurs against delving too deeply into this territory, and he experienced his own bout of madness associated with his study of the collective unconscious. (I guess amateurs would be ill advised to tinker with the operating system code in their personal computers, as well.) Moreover, the validity of Jungian psychology is not universally accepted, and Freud, notably, rejected the entire paradigm. (Of course, Freudian psychology is no more, or less, accepted than Jungian psychology today.)
I recommend a book, Hamlet's Mill by Giorgio de Santillana and Hertha von Dechend. It is easily available in English and it has been a milestone book for me, one that has permanently changed my way of approaching myth and culture. The book explores, without making preposterous assumptions, the existence of mythical tropes, that is themes that occur repeatedly in different mythographies and folklores. It is not a gruesome read, quite the contrary is true, and can be of infinite use for all those who are interested in myths and folktales.
I totally agree. Falsely creating all of these universal mono myth theories, is not only factually incorrect but it takes away from the actual uniqueness and differences in so many stories across the world. Even the similarities in a different religion or methology or story is only surface level, it’s only by coincidence. That sameness, that a number of stories share, is actually completely different when each story element is put into context of each of its overall myths. This is especially bad on the Internet for people like to make a bunch of crazy nonsense theories and take away from the uniqueness of the different mythology‘s and cultures in the world. Sure we’re all human and we share a lot in common, but the strike of genius often comes in the forms of how we express those basic human emotions & desires, those mediums or story flows of inspiration. Speaking of stories changing, it is very difficult to understand what’s real & what is fictional when it comes to African & African chattel-enslaved Diaspora religions, because of European Christian colonization (& other factors). Cross examining “experts”, field reports, interviews, stolen African artifacts and colonial reports (as biased as often they are). It’s possible and I’m currently doing it, but it’s very very difficult, sometimes the best strategy for me personally is to say when I’m not sure or that I don’t know. “Nubian”, Vodou, Ifa (Santeria, Candomble etc), Akom, “Nhialic”, Bini, etc are some of the African derived religions I’m researching. Hint hint: the lion king was kinda accurate maybe. Many African religions believe that when a person of good moral standing (& with children) dies, their spirit lives in multiple places at once. In the heavens with the deities including ancestors & within the hearts of their descendants (literally & spiritually. But sort of like reincarnation but not really) & sometimes also as a protective spiritual energy or being among the community on earth. Normally in the west we associate this type of “being in multiple places at once” as being only a power of god, but that isn’t necessarily so in certain African religions. For them that ability isn’t necessarily omnipotent and is an ability within the capabilities of human spirits/souls. Peace.
An example I find interesting but doesn’t suggest similarity of origins- the T’Aino and Finnish creation myth begin with a water mother goddess who gives birth to two sons.
To a limited extent this reminds me of the Grand Unification Theory stuff in physics, the idea that we can relate all universal constants to each other and that they have a relationship. As likely as it seems, the requirements to be able to do it are just completely beyond humanity, we would need to know so much more than we already do, practically everything. Anyways, as off topic as that might be, I really enjoyed this rant and your perspective and stories. I for one still take my Stetson off when eating.
There is a ton of pop stuff out here on everything mythic and esoteric, and you are a balanced and refreshing exception. Thank you for doing what you do
Grasping at universal straws seems to be a common human trait. I like to spin yarns of how our stories of Giant and wild men are memories of Denisovans and Neanderthals. (Yoten, Djinn, Yeren and Yowi all around similar after all) And our stories of elves are really Neanderthal stories about humans that we culturally appropriated. And people believe it.
Yeah, I think of the sky and how it has always been there, but even in changes... or how "mankind" has assigned stories and meanings to it, too, like "what's your sign, baby?" LOL.
The idea of trolls etc corresponding to Neanderthals isn’t crazy and there may be some truth to it. Some oral traditions preserve memories of ice age things. The Kaska people of northern BC have legends about mammoths for example.
Your rants are cool and well thought out. Good listening for a slow friday morning at work! It required engaging thought which unfortunately my work doesn't
Another thing I always find frustrating when people talk about universal myths is I feel it takes too objective of a lens at the myths and tries to distill them to a few basic qualities, while ignoring the fact that these myths are works of art and literature. Nobody would take modern American literary classics and try to say 'oh look this has so many commonalities with Norse myths cause xyz, they must have the same root'. It reduces in a lot of ways the intelligent design of these myths in a cultural context.
If someone asks me the old question of if I had a time machine, where would I travel, I would most want to visit prehistoric times to observe how we became human and what our cultures looked like and how they developed. I want to know what kind of stories they told, and when they began to tell stories. I want to hear their language spoken, and see how it changed over time. In that case, I would be able to tell you if there was any validity in a primal myth that was passed down through different lineages with the same root. I don´t think it´s outside the realm of possibility, though it is more probable that, as often happens with biological evolution, these types of stories emerged independently many times over. Just because something has wings doesn't mean that they all came from the same ancestors.
Any comments on the news item from a few years back that certain European fairytales, such as Jack and the Beanstalk, must be several millennia old? This was based on historical linguistics and textual comparison, I think, but I never read the source article.
Before people had electric light at night, which was invented, generously, only 200 yrs ago or so, they had nothing to look at but the night sky. Pictures in the sky, such as constellations, could explain the similarity in myths over time and space if different cultures saw similar pictures in the sky. For example, the woman/Virgo, or the river/Milky Way, etc. Comets and meteorites, etc., would spice up the plots. I'm enjoying listening to your expertise on runes. Fascinating stuff. Thank you.
I think part of the problem is that finding similarities is really quite easy, and being critical of your own sense of a connection is difficult. It is not pleasant to doubt yourself when you experience a connection between two things: thinking you're glimpsing something older is fun! Being critical is the honest thing to do though. You're entirely right about these things being very unlikely to have a connection, and even where a connection is pretty reasonable like with English and Norse stories its exact nature is elusive. Partly we just don't have enough text to make a strong case, and partly the differences are difficult and unpredictable. Your work is appreciated. Live well.
I think you make a lot of good points about the distance in time and space between different cultures. If a person gets too busy trying to match stories from different cultures, might they not miss the details in each of the stories they are comparing.
I listened to two lecture series by John McWhorter on human languages across the world, and he has also talked extensively about how languages change over time and interact with each other in proximity - the processes seem strikingly similar to how myths, religions, and cultures transmit. Another similarity is that he disparaged the pursuit by some of a hypothetical "original language," because we are just trying to work too far back with something that changes too fast and dynamically. Although some attempts have been made, there is always the matter that certain words (or in our case of myths, motifs) that will bear certain stronger resemblances to languages/myths that we're familiar with, and then the question becomes: "what are the chances that this one language or culture somehow perfectly preserved facets of the original progenitor, despite how drastically we know these things tend to change?" Answer: almost 0%. So we're left with the problem of being entirely unable to determine which things are "authentic" to the original, and which are innovations which arose at some point over the milleneia of human history. That doesn't mean these "tracing back" exercises are fruitless, especially in the hands of self-aware experts, but the further back we go the less tenable the speculation becomes. Hypothetical original languages and myth cycles are certainly out of our reach. But there are things we can conclude confidently about more recent super-groups, such as Proto-Indo-European language and religion. Yet even those will never be entirely reconstructed. Great video!
Many years ago, an African student came to the door. He was peddling booklets with folktales from his native land. I bought a booklet and began to read with fascination. Most of the stories were about animals showing human characters and behaviour. Several stories were about a cunning hyena. But those stories were very familiar to me. They looked like two drops of water on the stories of Reinaert the fox; medieval stories. Those stories are still very popular in Flanders. They were written down in the 13th century. And now some of them came back in slightly modified form as African folktales. It would be foolish to look for a distant common archetype behind this. The most likely explanation is that a Flemish priest or a Flemish coloniser 20-100 years ago told these stories over there, after which they became part of the local storytelling heritage.
Mythical stories tend to try and describe the ebb and flow and life, life cycles, beginning and end of universes, sex, the inner workings of the mind, and the social structures of humanity and of civilization all at once and THEN they use useful techniques like alignment with the stars, landscape, natural events, and other things we can sense, to help us recall and apply these stories when most needed. So that is what I mean when I think of "Universal". It's perhaps not that it is Universal more that it attempts to be from the perspective of our existence and experience.
A problem I've encountered with European, specifically Scottish folk-tale is that the sources can be unreliable. There is a story called "The Black Bull of Norroway" which was important to JRR Tolkien. In the essay 'On Fairy-stories' he makes it the central example of a "eucatastrophe" (happy ending). Wiki classifies it as Aarne-Thompson-Uther type 425A, "the search for the lost husband". A little digging reveals that the text as we have it is the work of Robert Chambers (1802-1871). Chambers makes a tongue-in-cheek claim it has "fortunately been recovered" [1], but the evidence suggests it's an elaborate literary joke set in motion by an earlier "collector", John Leyden. Leyden assisted Sir Walter Scott with his Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border (1802). It is said Scott paid money for his materials and ... where there's a demand, there's a supply. [1] Popular Rhymes of Scotland, 3rd ed. (1868), p.202
That is such a beautuiful place in this video! :) Love the fade out efect too. And I really enjoy your rants! :D Laughed out loud at some of the comments in the first part, especially the one about feet LOL! I love folklore and I'm inclined to agree with you on the subject of universal myth. The most obvious explanation for the similarities between stories from unconnected cultures is that they're all composed by human beings and humans have the same five senses and therefore interpret the world in the same ways - ergo, ending up telling very similar stories. I lean towards Tolkien's point, that while you have all these similar stories belonging to different cultures, the real value and interest is in how they differ rather than in how they are similar.
Hello Mike, I have listened to the title "Norse Mythology" under the great courses, narrated by Jackson Crawford himself, it contained a few stories that I hadn't heard in his translations of the edda.
Coming back after a few months to this channel, LOVE the audio improvement, congrats my man. Aside from that, as interesting as always. Love the channel
Dr. Crawford, You are the only person I would trust to answer my question if you would please. What would have been his signature if the Völsunga saga was true and Sigmund was an actual individual. ie, what runes would he have marked down (at that time) in history?
My mom borrowed a lovely book back in the 90's about Native American myths. It had tales from many tribes and unsurprisingly many of them told the same or similar stories. The stories about coyote were always my favorite
I found a similarity in Zeus and Tyr in the Fenrir myth because Zeus is associated with turning men into werewolves and Tyr is the one who convinces Fenrir to act like he is "magically" bound so he can wait for his moment to strike and he gives Fenrir his hand. A helping hand. Now my interpretation of the story is debatable, but I like it, and it makes sense the Pantheon of Norse gods is led by the most mischievous Gods and they are always at odds and in Ragnarok actively cause each others demise. And if Tyr is indeed Zeus he likely wants his vengeance against a God chaos such as Odin, but even better is the thought they've grown despise the lesser gods and are in league. Perhaps their deal is mutual Death! 😈
There is a tendency among some to get into historical subjects expecting/wanting to find very specific things in order to validate some contemporary agenda or sticking point, and then they are more than willing to grasp at straws in order to find the confirmation they need. This is an ahistorical approach and basically an inversion of correct scientific/empirical method, and I find Old Norse studies in particular suffer from it. I'm fond of saying Old Norse/Viking Age culture is one of the most misunderstood subjects out there, because so many people get into it just to use it as a sort of canvas to project their pre-conceived ideas on, ideas that run the whole gamut from fascism to feminism to neo-paganism. For people getting into the subject I highly encourage a kind of "forget what you think you know" approach and just give the source material and the scholarship a chance to speak.
The reason people see (or want to see) similarities in things is because of how our brain works. A brain is pretty much just a huge pattern recognition device. This is how it works. It makes connections and associations and sees patterns. That's pretty much all we do as human beings, from sinple muscle movement to memory, from instinctive reactions to analyzing a complex scenario.
I’m interested in your comments about how rapidly culture changes, partly because I’ve run into comments about technological change and how “unrealistic” fantasy settings are for seemingly having the same level of technology for thousands of years. I think this is conflating our current experience of technological change with past rates of change and is a failure to appreciate just how much technological change has accelerated, even in our lifetimes, and how slow it was in past millennia. But culture is more than technology, and I think you are correct that it changes rapidly, and therefore changes independent (for the most part) of technology. Linguistics provides perhaps the clearest evidence of this. It is interesting to consider how different aspects of culture evolve at different rates (and how those differences might be informative in comparing cultures).
I loved the video you made with another professor and he talked about layering evidence and if you see a recurring theme/being/what-not then you likely have found something true or atleast of interest. Sure, there are many commonalities by coincidence, but even a coincidence with further research may uncover a truth. Ie: common themes in dreams and fairytales.
1) That's a really beautiful landscape and nice cinematography. 2) It's cool to see "How to Kill a Dragon" mentioned. 3) What predictions have Proto-Indo-European studies made that have been verified? Are there examples beyond the laryngeal in Hittite? [There aren't any newly discovered data sets, are there? Anything new in Tocharian?] 4) Semantic fields (from PIE, (i.e. in Mallory & Adams)) are interesting to know, but have there been archaeological discoveries that confirm them? 5) Also, out of curiosity, how are Winfred Lehmann's books 1) "Historical Linguistics" and 2) "Theoretical Bases of Indo-European Linguistics" seen in the community of scholars? Is his description of the verb system still seen as current? [I just picked up Campbell's "Historical Linguistics" as something which is hopefully current.] I mention some of the above, because I had always wondered if there were actual predictions that were gained through studying PIE, or, if earlier cultures showed any evidence of correlating natural phenomena with descriptions of the physical properties of such phenomena (i.e., see the reduplication in Hittite for "lightning"). Isn't it all (i.e., language) just convention stretched out over vast amounts of time so that it varies (regularly or irregularly) by fashion, accident (nauger > auger), epenthesis, or elision? Given the breadth and depth of the internet and its vast array of comments (i.e., regardless of whether you answer my questions), your channel is very, very interesting. Thanks for the interesting discussion in the video, and have a nice afternoon.
4:00 For the record, Nez Percé is French for "pierced nose". I would guess the first people to make contact with the tribe were French trappers. They got around quite a bit. I remember there was another tribe called Gros Ventres "big bellies" - no doubt the elders liked to eat well. Not that I expect anyone to read this, but there it is.
again you Bleu us away, Hats off two ya. i recall thinkin of such things in childhood/kid. who bot black cowboy hat in the 60's teased at camp for it. failed english and math, so studied linquistics too early an mixxed me up. recall like in 6th grade patterns of behaviour, and fads, were now realize learned much racism,homophobia etc. but learning our Lakota roots as mom taught its Oral history, and family friend a writter of the native stories led me to this...
I think that the similarities between myths is usually based more on the human experience that we all share, than on lingustic lineage. The themes are universal, the stories local. Many myths have a deep psychological foundation, as explored by Joseph Campbell. I find the creativity of the human subconscious, and it's ability to use stories as a template for living, to be truly amazing.
Campbell's work is almost universally rejected in modern psycology and mythological studies. Campbell does a lot of work to make myths from various culture's fit his frames, ignores figures that defy his categorizations, and overall his prespective is more of a spirtual lense than an study of myth.
However, Campbell argued for a mythos/psychology that was *distinctly* Neo-Platonic in its core philosophy, which outright contradicts plenty of mythologies (including several that he claimed to fall into it). His work has mostly not stood up well to advances in comparative mythology.
Very good, thoughtful and well-reasond video. I wholeheartedly concur with the conclusion that many supposed 'deep-rooted' similarities are superficial. But I would also like to say that I think in many cases the possibility for later exchange of myth and story seems to be underestimated or entirely overlooked in some cases - when it comes to cultures that we know have had some contemporary contact, e.g. through trade. (Trade networks seem to have been extensive and far reaching in the bronze age, for example.) Similarities between myths can have been imported (and reworked) later.
Interesting video, and I agree more than I want to. Maybe we just need more honest declarations of speculation where overwhelming evidence is absent? There definately are old stories out there that have survived, as well as themes that we keep returning to regardless of root.
Well, I watched it all the way through and found it interesting. I also found the bit about not taking off your cowboy hat in the local greasy spoon funny. Thanks Jackson.
I got told to take off my hat just last September in Savanah Georgia. They said the bar had a gentlemen rule no hats, but that's the only time in my life I've had that happen.
Georgia is Deep South where doffing the hat is still a tradition. Leaving on the hat is a Western thing. It also varies even in the West. But a cowboy should be prepared to remove his hat when in the different culture of Georgia, etc. Even the redoubtable Miss Manners said cowboy hats were an exception and did not to be removed.
Fantastic and fascinating video. My own experience teaching mythology to young people has been somewhat different - it takes a lot to get younger people today to look beyond the most superficial of distinctions to begin to entertain that certain stories might be related even distantly. And the linguistic connections aren't interesting or compelling to many of them either, unschooled as many are in another language to being with. But I do appreciate the rant - calm as it was - against over-universalizing stories for even slight similarities.
Not calling "uncle," lol. Though I'm not alone in saying: Don't disparage yourself - you're definitely worth the patronage. We see it, even if you don't yet. About myths and legends, though - the search for commonalities in myth and legend isn't to prove they're from a single, universal source or sources - at least, it's not been that for me. It's to find the universal human truths. And Story has always been a particularly useful tool for truth telling, given you can tell truths via story formats you might never safely state baldly. Sidebar - I do feel you're unknowingly still a product of your time as shown by your sense that culture changes as quickly as you described. It hasn't, not for most of the human species's histories. Most of my lifetime has been a fast forwarding of *everything* from the practically logarithmic jumps in technology; and such a rate, depth, and breadth of change was previously 'impossible' for humanity. The closest I've known of otherwise was from the Industrial Revolution. One can't conflate the cut and tightness of men's trousers changing over several generations, for example, to the overarching slowness of change in the shared viewpoints, approach, values, and general unity within cultures that's seen across centuries. You and your Grandpa are an example of the latter, and the fact you could channel the values and approach inherent in Havamal via using your grandfather's 'voice,' IMO, demonstrates my point. By the by, today's was one of the gentlest rants I've ever heard. ;)
"Universal" probably isn't the word I'd use but when you get into especially the Baal rabbit hole it is very scary how much shall I say "derivative" aspects there are in mythology. Celtic and Norse mythology seem more unique compared to the more definitive Baal knockoff mythologies but there are still some striking similarities.
Don't feel shame for a well thought out and educated opinion. I appreciate the hell out of this video and will probably come back to it one day for a refresher.
I'm interested in linguists, so I've been watching videos about the PIE language, and some videos popping up discuss a PIE myth, because algorithm. Like the story of two early brothers in history end up fighting and one slays the other. Romulus and Remus in Rome, and Cain and Abel in Judeo-Christianity. Now, I'm not too convinced that they come from an earlier myth, but I don't have the knowledge necessary to say they're wrong. I can think of other explanations, like how sibling rivalry *exists*.
Not a rant. I remember when guys used to take off their cowboy hats inside. I grew up in Texas. I can’t pinpoint when it happened that no one does anymore either.
So I’ve hear a theory that "feet" in the Bible was sometimes used as slang for genitalia. It would be funny if Skadi wasn’t actually looking at their feet if you know what I mean.
I'd like to imagine Njorðr wades around in waist-deep water relatively often; it'd certainly be a lot more dramatic-looking than splashing around at the shore :D
Perhaps this is more of feature of pre-literate societies that do not have a system of mass media. I have long been intrigued by ancient Egypt, whose culture and art in contrast remained seemingly unchanged for a thousand years.
I thought this was a really cool perspective that is different from my usual encounters--especially in online forums... I'm curious if there's a biological pattern that caused different cultures to form this type of thinking to create non-related myths though. Like, is there a human gene that collectively says, this is one possible way to explain this, which results in multiple accounts that may sound similar but are foundationally different. Growing up biracial, I tend to seek out similarities in cultures to help me explain some of the differences between my own and others' cultures, but I think it's safe to say that these observations have no support to help confirm that they are related (outside of possible influences from later westernization in Japan). Also, I love that you live in my state! Makes me happy to hear these topics discussed in the surroundings I grew up near. I'm curious how you keep your microphone from picking up the wind and such though...
Human nature is largely the same, throughout times and places. To a greater or lesser degree, depending on the individual and the culture he or she lives in, we want belonging and individuality, comfort and adventure, exciting and dependable partners for sex and love, and agency in our own lives. We also want to explain difficult phenomena in our lives - such as being disappointed in love, but “stuck” with someone. In this situation, it is tempting to think that the disappointing partner deceived us during courtship, such as the characters in these two myths did, with clean feet or fake muscular legs. That’s my take on it.
Sea levels started rising quickly around 10-15,000 years ago which would’ve affected most around the world equally. I think that is definitely one “universal” myth that has a common origin.
I've seen some speculation that the idea of a dog that guards the otherworld/afterlife is rooted in the mythology of the Ancient North Eurasians, do you think there could be any validity to that?
Couldn't the stories come from a biological 'exact' same place? Joseph Campbell pointed out that separated tribes across the world imagine similar mythological motifs. What if that 'same place' is the genome! We evolved from snakes e.g., and mammals had to develop snake defences, so it wouldn't be weird that symbol pops up everywhere.
I don't think you can compare cultural change in the crazily connected World. You mention how the custom around taking off your hat changed in just a few generations. Well, one the flip side, that tradition has existed for so long that it exists in High Medieval sources. A gentleman from the 1200's would agree with your grandfather about that custom. Most societies are incredibly much more culturally conservative than our modern one.
Thank you for taking the time and effort to express this. It's a deep and important insight. I remember seeing a BBC series once, where they indicated that we might find some historical truths in traditional stories, about the first immigrstion to Australia. That's 70000 years. Shallow sensationalism wrecks history every time.
Thinking about why some birds are blue and what common environmental pressure guides the development brings us to the science of ecology and ecological niches. The equivalent to the ecosystem would be a human society which keeps some stories alive or slowly adapts them. People could compare societies with a female goddess of fertility and love and compare it with a monotheistic societies. I'd assume that this little difference creates different driving forces in each type of society. Additionally, there are common metaphors and symbols in religion, for example a floating eyes or blind seers. The danger when doing comparison studies is that there is no way to test if a similarity is coincidental or meaningful.
Like biological evolution memetic ideas evolve as they are passed from person to person and between subgroups and different cultures...but the same or related ideas can also independently arise in different cultures at different times. For example mathematical ideas evolved independently in different cultures t hat are unrelated, and we don't argue that the same idea was first identified thousands of years in the past before subgroups branched off and were consistently preserved without writing.
Just curious about your hat story. When you go to those places now, do take your hat off like you first learned the culture, or do you leave it on to fit in with the current culture?
I'm not a hat or jewelery wearing kind of fellow (31 years old), but I know the proper hat etiquette when indoors. I honestly don't care because to me it doesn't mean anything, but I at least know it. I feel the younger people around me don't know it or don't give a hoot or only think it applies to church, which is fine because that's sort of where the removal of hats comes from; a not bare head is "hiding" something from God.
I often wonder about very ancient similarities, not specific "stories", things like the practice of "sacrifice to the god(s)" for example, seems common.
That would depend on the culture. It could be anything from a con artist, the priest, finding a way to get a free source of food, to many cultures having a tradition of giving presents to those in power in order to gain favour and applying that logic to the spiritual realm.
I say humans are weird. Also the comments show a desire to see universality. Universality is good because it's a common ground for different societies to have a conversation about their similarities and not their differences. HOWEVER, it's also very important to go past universality and appreciate the differences because those differences are the basis for the "uniqueness" and the people's pride in that "difference" that's found nowhere else. So you will finally perceive the value those people, who made that "unique" culture, had put into that difference. So just hear me out about that.
I don't think the point in trying to derive universal myth patterns is to tell all myths share a common ancestry, for some people it is, don't get me wrong, but there is still a valid observation that can be made that unrelated human cultures may developp an interest in similar existential questions, pointing at the shared experience of human existence across space and time. That is more akin to metaphysical questioning than scientific endeavour, but it has its merits.
100x this
not only interest in the same questions, but what is most significant is if the myths in fact do have wholly independent origins, but people still come up with the same mythological explanation! i mean that points to some fundamental underlying truth shared by human experience in those cultures does it not?
I came here to comment this sentiment exactly. The "universal" in universal myth does not mean it's literally the same story that passes on and on, but rather that human psychology conjures up similar metaphors for shared human experiences and questions across time and geography.
No one would argue that Skaldi and Quyeesquyes are literally the same story that can be traced back 15000 years, but they do have a shared theme and use similar symbolism even though they almost certainly arose independently of each other.
There are also a number of somewhat universal social behavior patterns across most cultures and across time, as well as themes involving them. It's no mystery that they show up in various cultures that are geographically and chronologically unconnected to each other.
@@mjinba07 It is the mystery to investigate, the point of the debate. When two completely separated cultures happen to create what we come to understand as the same archetypal mythical structure, what are we supposed to deduct ? Is it merely a shadow of our own biases or can we develop a predictive system to account for our intuition ? I tend to think there is some form of human universality to exhibit, but I'm forced to recognize we lack the tools to do so, and in the worst case there is a real possibility that such a reliable tool might unfortunately not ever exist.
Came for the rant, stayed for the tranquil snowfall.
"Correlation is not Causation" was drilled into us in academic circles across the spectrum of disciplines and areas of study.
Coincidences are simply a point in which synchronisities meet.
Interesting example of this came up today: I was watching ReligionForBreakfast's new video on the Antichrist, and he told an Medieval story about the Antichrist turning himself into a pickled fish in a market and being bought and eaten by a woman. Afterwards, the woman became pregnant and gave birth to the Antichrist.
This immediately reminded me of an Alaskan-native story I heard when I was a kid, possibly Tlingit in origin but I'm not sure. I don't remember the details of the story, I think it was about Raven stealing the Sun for man, but I do remember a part where Raven is trying to escape , and turns himself into a pine-needle and lands in a cup of tea a woman is drinking. The woman inadvertently drinks the needle, becomes pregnant, and gives birth to Raven.
Yes, I saw that story on a program called "Raven Tales" which were a set of first nation creation stories from west coast of Canada
I think, and if I get it right, this is the purpose of tales databases, that specific features of tales are shared between people and cultures, but we absolutely don't know the pace at which they travel throughout the world and I think that the way tales evolve when they are shared hasn't been studied systematically yet; it requires that first attestations of tales in every place, time and culture be gathered systematically.
Well, I'm a big fan of Carl Jung, and I don't find anything "infuriating" or "frustrating" about this video. I agree with Jackson here, that these things are hard and super volatile. My fascination is purely with human thought as expressed in stories, and I don't believe there was this "world mythos" that existed or anything, but rather myths in general are reflections of human nature and truths where ever one finds them. Big fan of your work Jackson, cheers!
But how do you reconcile this fundamental human nature with the drastic differences in how cultures could view the exact same concept.
@@BBC-dq3ki Well like you said they were vastly different cultures, it would be because of their environment. IE the weather, economics, community etc all of these things leave impacts on us that in stories unconsciously show themselves. There's also things called "Archetypes" it's an objective fact that all stories have some sort of similar archetypes yet it also makes sense as to why say India and Indians with their own unique culture would have differences than say the French, yet both are human so would share questions and emotions about the human experience.
@@BBC-dq3ki The stories we tell and the manner in which we tell them, are representations of our own desires, fears and neuroses. The shared elements of human stories across culture, continents and centuries tell us something about our shared nature, the primal and universal parts of our unconscious mind.
@@kingkoi6542 those archetypes that are an "objective fact" are the exact opposite. These archetypes are an oversimplification that is easily discredited the moment you take an even slightly critical look at what ever you are trying to make the case for being one of these archetypes. Most of these similarities you're talking about are cosmetic that people mistake for thematic because they look at both imagery and wording in the story through the same cultural context, typically their own, instead of the cultural context of each of there originated cultures.
@@kingkoi6542 the strongest case for any universal human nature you can make is that humans have a set of emotions and drives that people experience to varrying degrees. A good example is greed, everyone is capable of taking more than they need but not everyone feels compelled to do it.
I watch a lot of your videos and I must say thank you for having some of the best advertising on youtube. Nice and short inoffensive ads for stuff I actually want, basically every single video. Good taste in all things!
This was fascinating to listen to. For a few years, as I learn more about ancient cultures, I’ve noticed similarities in their myths, gods and beliefs seemingly irregardless of time and distance. I love how beautifully and perfectly put together our world is, and thought that if I could go back far enough, find enough similarities, that I might be able to get a picture of what peoples perceptions and mindsets were in the world’s younger years. I really appreciated Dr Crawford’s perspective of how unreliable stories are over thousands of years of retelling, and there really isn’t a way to know what happened so very long ago. I’ll just stick to admiring and appreciating our beautiful planet and the odd people that inhabit it.
A funny story about Kalevala: I read it in my 20's using the English translation as a sort of dictionary. There are many many words that are forgotten in Finnish since Kalevala was written, so I needed a dictionary to read it. Later I found out that there is a old Finnish - modern Finnish dictionary for that purpose. But anyway, that's how fast languages can change.
I recommend reading "The Turkish Language Reform: A Catastrophic Success" by Geoffrey Lewis, it's an interesting example of very fast (and here mostly engineered) language change.
@@xepharnazos Dutch rapidly distanced itself from German following WW2 for obvious reasons. Entirely artificial but effective nonetheless.
Wasn’t the Kalevala written only 200 years ago?
@@LordJagd Yes it's oldest written form is about two centuries old.
@@LordJagd Almost, 1st edition was published 1835.
This is my first experience with one of your rants...I have to say I enjoyed it! Intelligent and well thought out😊
The end clip of the snow falling was mesmerizing and put me in Zen mode! Thank you Dr. Crawford😁
Storytime with Uncle Jack-more Please and Thank you. Always enjoy your thoughtful "rants". Be well.
Thank you for the video. Story time with uncle Jack is a genuine treat. Watched until the end.
Only recently found your channel, for which I'm truly grateful. As a retired therapist the psychology of humans is rooted in our evolution and modified by nurture and nature, from what is considered sacred to disgusting, the order of object subject verb in language, and the landscape the humans live within, which makes for interesting combinations.
However, these combinations are not infinite so, it's not surprising that common themes/tropes are repeated within stories around the world that all begin from different starting points. And you can count me as one of the four or five people who will listen to your rants.
Keep up the good work.
On a similar note. I’ve read translations of tales and myths from cultures and times very different from mine and been struck just by how dissimilar, how strange, how inscrutable some of the story elements are. If I were to hazard guesses to determine the deep meaning in them I think it is safe to say I would just be imposing my own particular intuitions rather than interpreting what was genuinely there. Even passages in something like Le Morte d’Arthur are utterly bewildering, and I would be a fool to try to find universal meaning. Maybe with a specialty in 13th c. French literature and Middle English I could attempt to say what was going on in terms of meaning, but it isn’t something to be ventured lightly.
Whenever I enter some house, building, bus, anything resembling an 'inside' area I take off my 'hat' (usually a knitted cap during winter since I don't like to use hats) and I will try to teach that to my grandsons too. Let's see how that's gonna go.
Making myself some popcorn for a Crawford rant
Perhaps the reasons behind your video creation and our patreon support can be found in the clearly real, obviously universal connection between every mythology ever and how it actually just ends up as Star Wars! Which is clearly the case because you turned Star Wars into an Old Norse saga :D
🙂🙂🙂
This video makes a good point. Comparative mythology between cultures with Indo-European languages has a certain validity, because they have a common origin. But the data set is very small, being limited to deity names and thematic elements, so the comparisons are limited.
In a broader sense, the only paradigm for comparative mythology seems to be Jungian psychology and the idea that certain symbolic elements are hardwired into the human psyche and have an existence beyond the individual self in what Jung called the collective unconscious. Jung, however, very clearly counseled us amateurs against delving too deeply into this territory, and he experienced his own bout of madness associated with his study of the collective unconscious. (I guess amateurs would be ill advised to tinker with the operating system code in their personal computers, as well.) Moreover, the validity of Jungian psychology is not universally accepted, and Freud, notably, rejected the entire paradigm. (Of course, Freudian psychology is no more, or less, accepted than Jungian psychology today.)
I was today years old when I realized that part of the reason scholarship is for prediction
I recommend a book,
Hamlet's Mill by Giorgio de Santillana and Hertha von Dechend.
It is easily available in English and it has been a milestone book for me, one that has permanently changed my way of approaching myth and culture.
The book explores, without making preposterous assumptions, the existence of mythical tropes, that is themes that occur repeatedly in different mythographies and folklores. It is not a gruesome read, quite the contrary is true, and can be of infinite use for all those who are interested in myths and folktales.
I totally agree. Falsely creating all of these universal mono myth theories, is not only factually incorrect but it takes away from the actual uniqueness and differences in so many stories across the world. Even the similarities in a different religion or methology or story is only surface level, it’s only by coincidence. That sameness, that a number of stories share, is actually completely different when each story element is put into context of each of its overall myths. This is especially bad on the Internet for people like to make a bunch of crazy nonsense theories and take away from the uniqueness of the different mythology‘s and cultures in the world. Sure we’re all human and we share a lot in common, but the strike of genius often comes in the forms of how we express those basic human emotions & desires, those mediums or story flows of inspiration. Speaking of stories changing, it is very difficult to understand what’s real & what is fictional when it comes to African & African chattel-enslaved Diaspora religions, because of European Christian colonization (& other factors). Cross examining “experts”, field reports, interviews, stolen African artifacts and colonial reports (as biased as often they are). It’s possible and I’m currently doing it, but it’s very very difficult, sometimes the best strategy for me personally is to say when I’m not sure or that I don’t know. “Nubian”, Vodou, Ifa (Santeria, Candomble etc), Akom, “Nhialic”, Bini, etc are some of the African derived religions I’m researching. Hint hint: the lion king was kinda accurate maybe. Many African religions believe that when a person of good moral standing (& with children) dies, their spirit lives in multiple places at once. In the heavens with the deities including ancestors & within the hearts of their descendants (literally & spiritually. But sort of like reincarnation but not really) & sometimes also as a protective spiritual energy or being among the community on earth. Normally in the west we associate this type of “being in multiple places at once” as being only a power of god, but that isn’t necessarily so in certain African religions. For them that ability isn’t necessarily omnipotent and is an ability within the capabilities of human spirits/souls. Peace.
An example I find interesting but doesn’t suggest similarity of origins- the T’Aino and Finnish creation myth begin with a water mother goddess who gives birth to two sons.
To a limited extent this reminds me of the Grand Unification Theory stuff in physics, the idea that we can relate all universal constants to each other and that they have a relationship. As likely as it seems, the requirements to be able to do it are just completely beyond humanity, we would need to know so much more than we already do, practically everything.
Anyways, as off topic as that might be, I really enjoyed this rant and your perspective and stories. I for one still take my Stetson off when eating.
Probably the most laid back rant l've ever heard.
Im a big fan of Jung, and your point is well taken. Love your videos and have learned a lot from you.
There is a ton of pop stuff out here on everything mythic and esoteric, and you are a balanced and refreshing exception. Thank you for doing what you do
Good rant, sir! Your points are valid and much needed.
Grasping at universal straws seems to be a common human trait.
I like to spin yarns of how our stories of Giant and wild men are memories of Denisovans and Neanderthals. (Yoten, Djinn, Yeren and Yowi all around similar after all)
And our stories of elves are really Neanderthal stories about humans that we culturally appropriated.
And people believe it.
It probably has something to do with a desire for our experiences to be universal / the norm, which tbh sounds obvious in retrospect.
Yeah, I think of the sky and how it has always been there, but even in changes... or how "mankind" has assigned stories and meanings to it, too, like "what's your sign, baby?" LOL.
The idea of trolls etc corresponding to Neanderthals isn’t crazy and there may be some truth to it. Some oral traditions preserve memories of ice age things. The Kaska people of northern BC have legends about mammoths for example.
Your rants are cool and well thought out. Good listening for a slow friday morning at work! It required engaging thought which unfortunately my work doesn't
Wonderful "rant." That was the most polite rant I have ever heard. . . .and very well presented. Thanks!
Another thing I always find frustrating when people talk about universal myths is I feel it takes too objective of a lens at the myths and tries to distill them to a few basic qualities, while ignoring the fact that these myths are works of art and literature. Nobody would take modern American literary classics and try to say 'oh look this has so many commonalities with Norse myths cause xyz, they must have the same root'. It reduces in a lot of ways the intelligent design of these myths in a cultural context.
Hi! Grateful to find your work. I just started studying 🇮🇸 & The Vikings.
If someone asks me the old question of if I had a time machine, where would I travel, I would most want to visit prehistoric times to observe how we became human and what our cultures looked like and how they developed. I want to know what kind of stories they told, and when they began to tell stories. I want to hear their language spoken, and see how it changed over time. In that case, I would be able to tell you if there was any validity in a primal myth that was passed down through different lineages with the same root. I don´t think it´s outside the realm of possibility, though it is more probable that, as often happens with biological evolution, these types of stories emerged independently many times over. Just because something has wings doesn't mean that they all came from the same ancestors.
I got a lot out of it. Thank you, sir.
Any comments on the news item from a few years back that certain European fairytales, such as Jack and the Beanstalk, must be several millennia old? This was based on historical linguistics and textual comparison, I think, but I never read the source article.
Before people had electric light at night, which was invented, generously, only 200 yrs ago or so, they had nothing to look at but the night sky. Pictures in the sky, such as constellations, could explain the similarity in myths over time and space if different cultures saw similar pictures in the sky. For example, the woman/Virgo, or the river/Milky Way, etc. Comets and meteorites, etc., would spice up the plots. I'm enjoying listening to your expertise on runes. Fascinating stuff. Thank you.
Love all your work.
I think part of the problem is that finding similarities is really quite easy, and being critical of your own sense of a connection is difficult. It is not pleasant to doubt yourself when you experience a connection between two things: thinking you're glimpsing something older is fun! Being critical is the honest thing to do though. You're entirely right about these things being very unlikely to have a connection, and even where a connection is pretty reasonable like with English and Norse stories its exact nature is elusive. Partly we just don't have enough text to make a strong case, and partly the differences are difficult and unpredictable.
Your work is appreciated. Live well.
I think you make a lot of good points about the distance in time and space between different cultures. If a person gets too busy trying to match stories from different cultures, might they not miss the details in each of the stories they are comparing.
I listened to two lecture series by John McWhorter on human languages across the world, and he has also talked extensively about how languages change over time and interact with each other in proximity - the processes seem strikingly similar to how myths, religions, and cultures transmit. Another similarity is that he disparaged the pursuit by some of a hypothetical "original language," because we are just trying to work too far back with something that changes too fast and dynamically. Although some attempts have been made, there is always the matter that certain words (or in our case of myths, motifs) that will bear certain stronger resemblances to languages/myths that we're familiar with, and then the question becomes: "what are the chances that this one language or culture somehow perfectly preserved facets of the original progenitor, despite how drastically we know these things tend to change?" Answer: almost 0%. So we're left with the problem of being entirely unable to determine which things are "authentic" to the original, and which are innovations which arose at some point over the milleneia of human history.
That doesn't mean these "tracing back" exercises are fruitless, especially in the hands of self-aware experts, but the further back we go the less tenable the speculation becomes. Hypothetical original languages and myth cycles are certainly out of our reach. But there are things we can conclude confidently about more recent super-groups, such as Proto-Indo-European language and religion. Yet even those will never be entirely reconstructed.
Great video!
Hey, Uncle Jack, I always appreciate your rant videos.
Many years ago, an African student came to the door. He was peddling booklets with folktales from his native land. I bought a booklet and began to read with fascination.
Most of the stories were about animals showing human characters and behaviour.
Several stories were about a cunning hyena. But those stories were very familiar to me. They looked like two drops of water on the stories of Reinaert the fox; medieval stories. Those stories are still very popular in Flanders. They were written down in the 13th century.
And now some of them came back in slightly modified form as African folktales.
It would be foolish to look for a distant common archetype behind this. The most likely explanation is that a Flemish priest or a Flemish coloniser 20-100 years ago told these stories over there, after which they became part of the local storytelling heritage.
Now I want to know if Crawford keeps his hat on or takes it off at bars.
Mythical stories tend to try and describe the ebb and flow and life, life cycles, beginning and end of universes, sex, the inner workings of the mind, and the social structures of humanity and of civilization all at once and THEN they use useful techniques like alignment with the stars, landscape, natural events, and other things we can sense, to help us recall and apply these stories when most needed. So that is what I mean when I think of "Universal". It's perhaps not that it is Universal more that it attempts to be from the perspective of our existence and experience.
A problem I've encountered with European, specifically Scottish folk-tale is that the sources can be unreliable. There is a story called "The Black Bull of Norroway" which was important to JRR Tolkien. In the essay 'On Fairy-stories' he makes it the central example of a "eucatastrophe" (happy ending). Wiki classifies it as Aarne-Thompson-Uther type 425A, "the search for the lost husband".
A little digging reveals that the text as we have it is the work of Robert Chambers (1802-1871). Chambers makes a tongue-in-cheek claim it has "fortunately been recovered" [1], but the evidence suggests it's an elaborate literary joke set in motion by an earlier "collector", John Leyden.
Leyden assisted Sir Walter Scott with his Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border (1802). It is said Scott paid money for his materials and ... where there's a demand, there's a supply.
[1] Popular Rhymes of Scotland, 3rd ed. (1868), p.202
Of the 18,000~ people who I have watched this I did get something out of it so thank you.
That is such a beautuiful place in this video! :) Love the fade out efect too. And I really enjoy your rants! :D Laughed out loud at some of the comments in the first part, especially the one about feet LOL!
I love folklore and I'm inclined to agree with you on the subject of universal myth. The most obvious explanation for the similarities between stories from unconnected cultures is that they're all composed by human beings and humans have the same five senses and therefore interpret the world in the same ways - ergo, ending up telling very similar stories. I lean towards Tolkien's point, that while you have all these similar stories belonging to different cultures, the real value and interest is in how they differ rather than in how they are similar.
I loved listening to the great courses on Audible, thanks for all the work you continue to do!
Which courses
Hello Mike, I have listened to the title "Norse Mythology" under the great courses, narrated by Jackson Crawford himself, it contained a few stories that I hadn't heard in his translations of the edda.
Oh my, story ranting with uncle Jack. Gotta tune in while it's fresh.
Coming back after a few months to this channel, LOVE the audio improvement, congrats my man. Aside from that, as interesting as always. Love the channel
Dr. Crawford,
You are the only person I would trust to answer my question if you would please.
What would have been his signature if the Völsunga saga was true and Sigmund was an actual individual. ie, what runes would he have marked down (at that time) in history?
My mom borrowed a lovely book back in the 90's about Native American myths. It had tales from many tribes and unsurprisingly many of them told the same or similar stories. The stories about coyote were always my favorite
Found it!! American myths and legends by Alphonso Oritz and Richard Erodes!!!
I found a similarity in Zeus and Tyr in the Fenrir myth because Zeus is associated with turning men into werewolves and Tyr is the one who convinces Fenrir to act like he is "magically" bound so he can wait for his moment to strike and he gives Fenrir his hand. A helping hand. Now my interpretation of the story is debatable, but I like it, and it makes sense the Pantheon of Norse gods is led by the most mischievous Gods and they are always at odds and in Ragnarok actively cause each others demise. And if Tyr is indeed Zeus he likely wants his vengeance against a God chaos such as Odin, but even better is the thought they've grown despise the lesser gods and are in league. Perhaps their deal is mutual Death! 😈
There is a tendency among some to get into historical subjects expecting/wanting to find very specific things in order to validate some contemporary agenda or sticking point, and then they are more than willing to grasp at straws in order to find the confirmation they need. This is an ahistorical approach and basically an inversion of correct scientific/empirical method, and I find Old Norse studies in particular suffer from it. I'm fond of saying Old Norse/Viking Age culture is one of the most misunderstood subjects out there, because so many people get into it just to use it as a sort of canvas to project their pre-conceived ideas on, ideas that run the whole gamut from fascism to feminism to neo-paganism. For people getting into the subject I highly encourage a kind of "forget what you think you know" approach and just give the source material and the scholarship a chance to speak.
The reason people see (or want to see) similarities in things is because of how our brain works. A brain is pretty much just a huge pattern recognition device. This is how it works. It makes connections and associations and sees patterns. That's pretty much all we do as human beings, from sinple muscle movement to memory, from instinctive reactions to analyzing a complex scenario.
I’m interested in your comments about how rapidly culture changes, partly because I’ve run into comments about technological change and how “unrealistic” fantasy settings are for seemingly having the same level of technology for thousands of years. I think this is conflating our current experience of technological change with past rates of change and is a failure to appreciate just how much technological change has accelerated, even in our lifetimes, and how slow it was in past millennia. But culture is more than technology, and I think you are correct that it changes rapidly, and therefore changes independent (for the most part) of technology. Linguistics provides perhaps the clearest evidence of this. It is interesting to consider how different aspects of culture evolve at different rates (and how those differences might be informative in comparing cultures).
I loved the video you made with another professor and he talked about layering evidence and if you see a recurring theme/being/what-not then you likely have found something true or atleast of interest.
Sure, there are many commonalities by coincidence, but even a coincidence with further research may uncover a truth. Ie: common themes in dreams and fairytales.
1) That's a really beautiful landscape and nice cinematography.
2) It's cool to see "How to Kill a Dragon" mentioned.
3) What predictions have Proto-Indo-European studies made that have been verified? Are there examples beyond the laryngeal in Hittite? [There aren't any newly discovered data sets, are there? Anything new in Tocharian?]
4) Semantic fields (from PIE, (i.e. in Mallory & Adams)) are interesting to know, but have there been archaeological discoveries that confirm them?
5) Also, out of curiosity, how are Winfred Lehmann's books 1) "Historical Linguistics" and 2) "Theoretical Bases of Indo-European Linguistics" seen in the community of scholars? Is his description of the verb system still seen as current? [I just picked up Campbell's "Historical Linguistics" as something which is hopefully current.]
I mention some of the above, because I had always wondered if there were actual predictions that were gained through studying PIE, or, if earlier cultures showed any evidence of correlating natural phenomena with descriptions of the physical properties of such phenomena (i.e., see the reduplication in Hittite for "lightning"). Isn't it all (i.e., language) just convention stretched out over vast amounts of time so that it varies (regularly or irregularly) by fashion, accident (nauger > auger), epenthesis, or elision?
Given the breadth and depth of the internet and its vast array of comments (i.e., regardless of whether you answer my questions), your channel is very, very interesting.
Thanks for the interesting discussion in the video, and have a nice afternoon.
4:00 For the record, Nez Percé is French for "pierced nose".
I would guess the first people to make contact with the tribe were French trappers. They got around quite a bit. I remember there was another tribe called Gros Ventres "big bellies" - no doubt the elders liked to eat well.
Not that I expect anyone to read this, but there it is.
again you Bleu us away, Hats off two ya. i recall thinkin of such things in childhood/kid. who bot black cowboy hat in the 60's teased at camp for it. failed english and math, so studied linquistics too early an mixxed me up. recall like in 6th grade patterns of behaviour, and fads, were now realize learned much racism,homophobia etc. but learning our Lakota roots as mom taught its Oral history, and family friend a writter of the native stories led me to this...
I think that the similarities between myths is usually based more on the human experience that we all share, than on lingustic lineage. The themes are universal, the stories local. Many myths have a deep psychological foundation, as explored by Joseph Campbell. I find the creativity of the human subconscious, and it's ability to use stories as a template for living, to be truly amazing.
I was thinking something similar but was struggling to explain myself. Thanks!
It would be interesting to hear what Jackson thinks about Jung and Campbell, especially while it's still snowing.
Campbell's work is almost universally rejected in modern psycology and mythological studies. Campbell does a lot of work to make myths from various culture's fit his frames, ignores figures that defy his categorizations, and overall his prespective is more of a spirtual lense than an study of myth.
However, Campbell argued for a mythos/psychology that was *distinctly* Neo-Platonic in its core philosophy, which outright contradicts plenty of mythologies (including several that he claimed to fall into it). His work has mostly not stood up well to advances in comparative mythology.
Very good, thoughtful and well-reasond video. I wholeheartedly concur with the conclusion that many supposed 'deep-rooted' similarities are superficial. But I would also like to say that I think in many cases the possibility for later exchange of myth and story seems to be underestimated or entirely overlooked in some cases - when it comes to cultures that we know have had some contemporary contact, e.g. through trade. (Trade networks seem to have been extensive and far reaching in the bronze age, for example.) Similarities between myths can have been imported (and reworked) later.
Interesting video, and I agree more than I want to.
Maybe we just need more honest declarations of speculation where overwhelming evidence is absent? There definately are old stories out there that have survived, as well as themes that we keep returning to regardless of root.
Well, I watched it all the way through and found it interesting. I also found the bit about not taking off your cowboy hat in the local greasy spoon funny. Thanks Jackson.
I remember reading something about major trends in culture changing about every twenty years, or every generation.
I got told to take off my hat just last September in Savanah Georgia. They said the bar had a gentlemen rule no hats, but that's the only time in my life I've had that happen.
Georgia is Deep South where doffing the hat is still a tradition. Leaving on the hat is a Western thing. It also varies even in the West. But a cowboy should be prepared to remove his hat when in the different culture of Georgia, etc. Even the redoubtable Miss Manners said cowboy hats were an exception and did not to be removed.
Fantastic and fascinating video. My own experience teaching mythology to young people has been somewhat different - it takes a lot to get younger people today to look beyond the most superficial of distinctions to begin to entertain that certain stories might be related even distantly. And the linguistic connections aren't interesting or compelling to many of them either, unschooled as many are in another language to being with. But I do appreciate the rant - calm as it was - against over-universalizing stories for even slight similarities.
Not calling "uncle," lol.
Though I'm not alone in saying: Don't disparage yourself - you're definitely worth the patronage. We see it, even if you don't yet.
About myths and legends, though - the search for commonalities in myth and legend isn't to prove they're from a single, universal source or sources - at least, it's not been that for me. It's to find the universal human truths. And Story has always been a particularly useful tool for truth telling, given you can tell truths via story formats you might never safely state baldly.
Sidebar - I do feel you're unknowingly still a product of your time as shown by your sense that culture changes as quickly as you described. It hasn't, not for most of the human species's histories. Most of my lifetime has been a fast forwarding of *everything* from the practically logarithmic jumps in technology; and such a rate, depth, and breadth of change was previously 'impossible' for humanity. The closest I've known of otherwise was from the Industrial Revolution.
One can't conflate the cut and tightness of men's trousers changing over several generations, for example, to the overarching slowness of change in the shared viewpoints, approach, values, and general unity within cultures that's seen across centuries. You and your Grandpa are an example of the latter, and the fact you could channel the values and approach inherent in Havamal via using your grandfather's 'voice,' IMO, demonstrates my point.
By the by, today's was one of the gentlest rants I've ever heard. ;)
"Universal" probably isn't the word I'd use but when you get into especially the Baal rabbit hole it is very scary how much shall I say "derivative" aspects there are in mythology. Celtic and Norse mythology seem more unique compared to the more definitive Baal knockoff mythologies but there are still some striking similarities.
16:40 My favorite example of this that I'm aware of is Aphrodite/Venus and her evolution.
Don't feel shame for a well thought out and educated opinion. I appreciate the hell out of this video and will probably come back to it one day for a refresher.
I'm interested in linguists, so I've been watching videos about the PIE language, and some videos popping up discuss a PIE myth, because algorithm. Like the story of two early brothers in history end up fighting and one slays the other. Romulus and Remus in Rome, and Cain and Abel in Judeo-Christianity.
Now, I'm not too convinced that they come from an earlier myth, but I don't have the knowledge necessary to say they're wrong. I can think of other explanations, like how sibling rivalry *exists*.
I need to meet this gentleman
What's your opinion on the idea of the shared origin of the Seven Sisters myth?
Not a rant. I remember when guys used to take off their cowboy hats inside. I grew up in Texas. I can’t pinpoint when it happened that no one does anymore either.
So I’ve hear a theory that "feet" in the Bible was sometimes used as slang for genitalia. It would be funny if Skadi wasn’t actually looking at their feet if you know what I mean.
I'd like to imagine Njorðr wades around in waist-deep water relatively often; it'd certainly be a lot more dramatic-looking than splashing around at the shore :D
Very interesting thought. Thanks 👍
Something I've always wondered; is there any evidence of a connection or influence btwn the Beowulf myth and Finn's slaying of Aillen?
Perhaps this is more of feature of pre-literate societies that do not have a system of mass media. I have long been intrigued by ancient Egypt, whose culture and art in contrast remained seemingly unchanged for a thousand years.
No need for "universal myth" with global trade...the stories will follow with the boats, horses and people. Just a thought from a neophyte.
I thought this was a really cool perspective that is different from my usual encounters--especially in online forums...
I'm curious if there's a biological pattern that caused different cultures to form this type of thinking to create non-related myths though. Like, is there a human gene that collectively says, this is one possible way to explain this, which results in multiple accounts that may sound similar but are foundationally different.
Growing up biracial, I tend to seek out similarities in cultures to help me explain some of the differences between my own and others' cultures, but I think it's safe to say that these observations have no support to help confirm that they are related (outside of possible influences from later westernization in Japan).
Also, I love that you live in my state! Makes me happy to hear these topics discussed in the surroundings I grew up near. I'm curious how you keep your microphone from picking up the wind and such though...
Human nature is largely the same, throughout times and places. To a greater or lesser degree, depending on the individual and the culture he or she lives in, we want belonging and individuality, comfort and adventure, exciting and dependable partners for sex and love, and agency in our own lives. We also want to explain difficult phenomena in our lives - such as being disappointed in love, but “stuck” with someone. In this situation, it is tempting to think that the disappointing partner deceived us during courtship, such as the characters in these two myths did, with clean feet or fake muscular legs.
That’s my take on it.
the problem is we see what we want to see and cannot see what doesn't match our preconception of things.
Life is as unpredictable as the people living it . . . And you can be certain of that.
Sea levels started rising quickly around 10-15,000 years ago which would’ve affected most around the world equally. I think that is definitely one “universal” myth that has a common origin.
Global flood nonsense is not universal
You do it, because we love you
I've seen some speculation that the idea of a dog that guards the otherworld/afterlife is rooted in the mythology of the Ancient North Eurasians, do you think there could be any validity to that?
Couldn't the stories come from a biological 'exact' same place?
Joseph Campbell pointed out that separated tribes across the world imagine similar mythological motifs.
What if that 'same place' is the genome!
We evolved from snakes e.g., and mammals had to develop snake defences, so it wouldn't be weird that symbol pops up everywhere.
I don't think you can compare cultural change in the crazily connected World. You mention how the custom around taking off your hat changed in just a few generations. Well, one the flip side, that tradition has existed for so long that it exists in High Medieval sources. A gentleman from the 1200's would agree with your grandfather about that custom. Most societies are incredibly much more culturally conservative than our modern one.
Thank you for taking the time and effort to express this. It's a deep and important insight. I remember seeing a BBC series once, where they indicated that we might find some historical truths in traditional stories, about the first immigrstion to Australia. That's 70000 years. Shallow sensationalism wrecks history every time.
Thinking about why some birds are blue and what common environmental pressure guides the development brings us to the science of ecology and ecological niches. The equivalent to the ecosystem would be a human society which keeps some stories alive or slowly adapts them. People could compare societies with a female goddess of fertility and love and compare it with a monotheistic societies. I'd assume that this little difference creates different driving forces in each type of society. Additionally, there are common metaphors and symbols in religion, for example a floating eyes or blind seers. The danger when doing comparison studies is that there is no way to test if a similarity is coincidental or meaningful.
Like biological evolution memetic ideas evolve as they are passed from person to person and between subgroups and different cultures...but the same or related ideas can also independently arise in different cultures at different times. For example mathematical ideas evolved independently in different cultures t hat are unrelated, and we don't argue that the same idea was first identified thousands of years in the past before subgroups branched off and were consistently preserved without writing.
The only univeral value, is that our hearts are restless until they rest in God.
Just curious about your hat story. When you go to those places now, do take your hat off like you first learned the culture, or do you leave it on to fit in with the current culture?
Ignore critics, they are like, I guess I simply can not say what I want to. Ignore critics.
You cannot step into the same stream twice.
I like taking my beanie off when I enter the grocery store
I'm not a hat or jewelery wearing kind of fellow (31 years old), but I know the proper hat etiquette when indoors. I honestly don't care because to me it doesn't mean anything, but I at least know it. I feel the younger people around me don't know it or don't give a hoot or only think it applies to church, which is fine because that's sort of where the removal of hats comes from; a not bare head is "hiding" something from God.
I often wonder about very ancient similarities, not specific "stories", things like the practice of "sacrifice to the god(s)" for example, seems common.
That would depend on the culture. It could be anything from a con artist, the priest, finding a way to get a free source of food, to many cultures having a tradition of giving presents to those in power in order to gain favour and applying that logic to the spiritual realm.
I say humans are weird. Also the comments show a desire to see universality. Universality is good because it's a common ground for different societies to have a conversation about their similarities and not their differences. HOWEVER, it's also very important to go past universality and appreciate the differences because those differences are the basis for the "uniqueness" and the people's pride in that "difference" that's found nowhere else. So you will finally perceive the value those people, who made that "unique" culture, had put into that difference. So just hear me out about that.
Why not translate it as "Jotun" since Aesir and Vanir don't seem to get translated.