Why I Don't Talk "Allegory"

แชร์
ฝัง
  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ม.ค. 2025

ความคิดเห็น • 181

  • @JacksonCrawford
    @JacksonCrawford  3 ปีที่แล้ว +153

    Needless to say, angry types would interpret a video about why I don't wear baseball caps as an argument to destroy all baseball caps and imprison the people who wear them. That is not my meaning. I mean to tell you why I don't wear baseball caps myself (but you can wear what you want), and also, while I'm hardly some committed student of ballcap-ism, why you might want to consider the reasons that angry types might be so interested in getting you to feel stupid if you don't wear theirs.
    "Just a good simple tale about a man who hates an animal." th-cam.com/video/afWLwPZZv2w/w-d-xo.html

    • @CompletelyHarrison
      @CompletelyHarrison 3 ปีที่แล้ว +7

      Dr. Crawford, I really appreciate that you consistently give us the facts and not wild speculation. I sometimes think, however that this attitude of “the author didn’t mean to put in all of this allegorical stuff and people are just over interpreting” is a pushback to pretentious academics with its own bias. I definitely understand that it is taken too far a lot, but I don’t know that it makes sense to believe people aren’t thinking deeply when they make stories. Aren’t all the myths culturally influenced and deeply imbedded in the values of that society? Don’t the people who make stories and pass them down seem to think fairly deeply about what they mean and what they can teach us? It just seems weird to me that the people of any culture would pass down stories that they felt had no meaning or value just on the basis of it being a good story. That might be naive or biased of me, but it seems to me that people always want to ascribe meanings to things. Even if you’re in a culture where you’re working just to survive.

    • @stephensmith9906
      @stephensmith9906 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      As a student of ball-capism I appreciate this.

    • @GraemeMarkNI
      @GraemeMarkNI 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      I always knew Jackson was secretly Ron Swanson.

    • @Wanup_Vodka
      @Wanup_Vodka 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Keep your hands off my baseball cap.

  • @jackpayne4658
    @jackpayne4658 3 ปีที่แล้ว +123

    There's an old Sufi tale about a teacher who was always telling stories. One day, a student complained, 'You tell us stories, but you never explain what they mean'. The teacher replied, 'How would you like it if you bought a peach from a fruit-seller, only to see the seller eat it himself before your eyes?' 'I'm sorry', said the student, 'I don't understand that story either'. So the teacher slowly repeated the story of the peach...

    • @gerardvila4685
      @gerardvila4685 3 ปีที่แล้ว +25

      Jackson Crawford: “I'm not going to tell you the hidden meanings in these stories because I don't believe they exist"
      Sufi master (quoted by Jack Paine): “I'm not going to tell you the meaning of my stories because you'll only understand them properly if you work them out for yourselves".
      Me: Are you guys agreeing or contradicting each other?

    • @meadish
      @meadish 3 ปีที่แล้ว +13

      @@gerardvila4685 Yes, and no. Not yes, and not no. Not not yes and not not no.

    • @jackpayne4658
      @jackpayne4658 3 ปีที่แล้ว +9

      @@meadish That sums it up nicely.

    • @fimbulsummer
      @fimbulsummer 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      @@meadish This is the best and most accurate answer. 👍

    • @willmosse3684
      @willmosse3684 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@gerardvila4685 Yeah. I think this quote is completely NOT what Jackson was saying 😂

  • @Basshead004
    @Basshead004 3 ปีที่แล้ว +52

    The other Loki and fire connection I remember is him losing an eating contest to a fire

    • @christopherrowley7506
      @christopherrowley7506 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Yeah I thought of that too, but that story makes him opposed to fire rather than associated with it. In the same story Thor was opposed to old age, the ocean and the Midgard serpent; he's certainly not associated with those things as his divine attributes the way people interpret fire with Loki

    • @Stav-runes
      @Stav-runes 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      That story actually do tell something about Loki´s elemental connection, but it is definitely not fire. There are also noa-names of Loki that suggests the connection of which I am hinting. The connection is also attested in the oldest source that mentions Loki, Haustlǫng. Happy studies.

  • @kellimbt
    @kellimbt 3 ปีที่แล้ว +66

    This is a great perspective. I think the idea that academics see the whole picture and others 'just don't get it' contributes heavily to the ivory tower problem existing in the first place.

    • @rufust.firefly6352
      @rufust.firefly6352 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      This is one of the reasons I walked away from my PhD.

    • @cindz4618
      @cindz4618 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I wish there were more people in the world who had this same perspective. 👏👏👏

    • @friend_trilobot
      @friend_trilobot 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Interesting...In my experience, it's the academics who get old, weird outdated ideas out of their students heads and show them alternatives... but maybe I got lucky

  • @Barbarossa19
    @Barbarossa19 3 ปีที่แล้ว +39

    Dr. Crawford, I appreciate your forthrightness about your translation work. I think it is obvious to all your viewers that you do your work for the joy of it and not to build an ego for yourself.
    [Disclaimer: I am a Christian clergy person]
    I believe much of the pressure to create allegories underneath the Eddas is due to modern Western, and specifically American, Christianity. Generations of Americans sat listening to sermons in churches where the homilist (preacher) created the same types of allegories underneath the Jewish/Christian Bible texts.
    Your restraint and commitment to the historicism of these Edda texts is singular and admirable. When I read a Bible text translated from ancient Hebrew or Koine Greek, I would prefer of the translation be informed by a committed academic in those languages who is a complete "nonbeliever". My father would say, that such a person has no horse in the race and no axe to grind.
    I am very appreciative that you have dedicated yourself to translating and teaching these texts leaving allegories and other interpretations to the believers. If they desire an extended edition, they should write it themselves. If it is done well, the people one thousand years hence will find themselves enriched.
    Cheers, BR

    • @heysemberthkingdom-brunel5041
      @heysemberthkingdom-brunel5041 3 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      Well to be fair, especially the way Jesus is presented in the Gospels he talks in allegory and metaphor all the time. Sometimes he explains his meaning, sometimes he doesn't. I think that's a difference between Middle Eastern culture of the time and Germanic culture of the time of the Eddas...

    • @abyssimus
      @abyssimus 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      I totally agree that Christianity is a significant factor in a lot of western minds looking for deeper meaning that might not exist, but I wouldn't say it's a modern or American phenomena. Platonists took a heavily allegorical approach to Greek mythology, Philo of Alexandria did so to the Tanakh, and the early church fathers tried to do so up until they had to pull a balancing act against Gnostics' conspiracy theories. In other cultures, Sufis would argue how the poetic structure of the Quran is supposed to reveal the structure of the universe, or Vedanta gurus trying to explain how a story about a battle in bronze age India is really about the relationship between the soul and God. When colonialists and missionaries encountered it, they assumed that that's just how all religions are supposed to work: they have *A* book that has a face value reading and a deeper reading. Theosophists reading colonialist reports for tidbits to cobble together in their "not a religion, just the science of religion" ran with this assumption and believed that this tendency must exist in any religious text they deemed enlightened (and guess how enlightened they thought Europeans were). New Age largely inherited its ideas from Theosophy, and was a gateway (or at least a road sign) for a lot of neopagans. Someone who grew up at least church-adjacent but learned about paganism from the New Age section of a non-specialist book store could only assume that there must be deeper meanings in old stories.

    • @kingkoi6542
      @kingkoi6542 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@heysemberthkingdom-brunel5041 Also the Church introduced the whole black vs white morality into a culture that was far more nuanced about human moral complexity.

    • @jacobpast5437
      @jacobpast5437 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      ​@@abyssimus Your comment is a hidden gem. Two years old and you have _one_ like (well now two). It's just beyond me.

  • @tripp8833
    @tripp8833 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    You are a breath of fresh air. So many “experts “ try to gatekeep their subject with ridiculous obfuscation like you mention here… it’s very off putting

  • @PalleRasmussen
    @PalleRasmussen 3 ปีที่แล้ว +65

    “I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. ... I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.”
    John Ronald Reuel Tolkien

    • @Barbarossa19
      @Barbarossa19 3 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      One of my favorite Tolkien quotes ❤

    • @katam6471
      @katam6471 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I've never read this quote before. It's just what I thought, but couldn't put into words in what is not my native language.

    • @shawngipson5403
      @shawngipson5403 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      This quote is one of the reasons the Tolkien Estate hated the Tolkien movie. As the whole movie was completely full of allegory. Tolkien hated when people took parts of his books and saying this like "he got this idea from his experience with war" ect..

    • @PalleRasmussen
      @PalleRasmussen 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@shawngipson5403 I can safely say that I have never met anyone who hates the movies more than I do. And only one that equals me.

    • @thumphreybrogart4108
      @thumphreybrogart4108 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@shawngipson5403 I thought I read somewhere that Tolkien stated the scourge of the Shire was directly related to his experience coming back from the war and seeing the industrialization of England?

  • @louispellissier914
    @louispellissier914 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Totally agree, in heathen circles speculating about the texts is something I find all the time and always ends up being just useless guess work

  • @camelusdromedarius3789
    @camelusdromedarius3789 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    The furthest I go with it with Old Norse myth is seeing Odin's quest to change his fate kind of as this effort of free will against fatalism, and humans rally behind him like they're wanting free will to prevail. I don't think the peoples then actually thought of it in those terms, it's just my interpretation of it.

  • @Crash103179
    @Crash103179 3 ปีที่แล้ว +14

    Regarding seeing meanings where there are none: Since light travels faster than sound, some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

  • @scrizname
    @scrizname 3 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    I’m an Orthodox Jew and I really appreciate your discussions and style. After watching Vikings tv show became fascinated with Scandinavian culture through the European historic journey

    • @scrizname
      @scrizname 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      David show some gratitude. Do you even know the etymology of your own name.

  • @PhroXenGold
    @PhroXenGold 3 ปีที่แล้ว +23

    Agree with your persepctive here. There are things written to contain allegory, but most of the time, stories are what they seem to be. Stories. I've seen plenty of accounts from authors who have had fans come up to them with elaborate theories of what their works meant that they had never even thought of while writing them.
    One thing I would disgagree with is the idea that finding allegory in things is a modern concept, at least in general. There is a long and storied tradition of people finding allegories and hidden meanings in religious texts going back millenia.

  • @therecalcitrantseditionist3613
    @therecalcitrantseditionist3613 3 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    Your assessment of how english classes teach you to think about literature seems to spot on to as issue ive had with it and literary critism most of my life. So appreciate you saying it and applying it to the norse literature you study.

  • @nealheidekat5726
    @nealheidekat5726 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    It could be argued that most of what you do is deeply rooted in interpretation, as you honestly admit. You lend your perspective, which is profoundly researched and as impartial as academically possible. We all have a bias, yours is better researched than most.

  • @has25252
    @has25252 3 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    I think some stories speak to us when we read them. If a person finds deeper meanings in something it's really just for them, it doesn't mean it's applicable to everyone.

  • @ohnoajellyfish
    @ohnoajellyfish 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    This is a refreshing take, especially as a writer, to know there are readers and academics who can enjoy a story for a story without assigning anything more to it.

  • @delanebredvik
    @delanebredvik 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    "...refuge of the incompetent." Brilliant. I seek shelter there all the time.

  • @dorteweber3682
    @dorteweber3682 3 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    The goal of literary interpretation, when it is done right, is to account for what is THERE, not what is NOT there. Someone commented on Hemingway talking about stories being about what is on the page, and so they are, but Hemingway was a genius at hiding things in plain view. His stuff was so easy to read you could read right past some pretty important bits - out in the open, but hard to see unless you read very carefully. With the Norse material we will never know what we don't know, ie., what is missing, so it is pretty risky to start interpreting from a partial source. I'm with Dr. Crawford on that.

  • @johnwilson1340
    @johnwilson1340 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    The term 'allegory' is being used in this discussion thread to mean many things, some of which are not allegory.
    Rather than lecture, though, I'll just ask "What would you call Odin's sacrificing one of his eyes to gain spiritual insight?"
    Referring to his video on myth and dreams, I'd also mention that the kind of shamanic visions that may have inspired some of these myths are not often allegorical either. But they did not likely happen in the physical world, either. I'd suggest they had a symbolic meaning to the Norse peoples, especially the magic practitioners.

  • @RB-cx3ce
    @RB-cx3ce 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    You are incredibly bright and personally I believe you do as close to a perfect job as what can be done with what we have. Thank you for all you do seriously.

  • @blakewinter1657
    @blakewinter1657 3 ปีที่แล้ว +17

    I completely agree! I think most stories are about what they're about. A lot of people who find allegories and metaphors in literature are just using the text as a Rorschach ink blot of sorts for themselves. Great video.
    Worth noting that Tolkien also despised metaphor in story.

    • @thumphreybrogart4108
      @thumphreybrogart4108 3 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      The Rorschach think is exactly what I do with these stories 😆. But I don't preach my interpretation as though I've discovered some ancient truth... It's just what what happens when any specific story bounces around in my mind for a while and I start making associations

  • @Alex-tx7ih
    @Alex-tx7ih 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I think one of the best things of allegory and hidden meanings or links in a text is sharing it. Those which have lots of evidence to support it are really cool and I think having those revealed is a joy. But the evidence to support an allegory or theme can vary, and sometimes people will try to force a theme when it really doesn't fit (Loki as Satan or fire are two examples). An allegory necessarily comes from the events of the story, so I don't see how anyone could settle on an allegory without being very familiar with the sequence of events.

  • @piercesmith1465
    @piercesmith1465 ปีที่แล้ว

    Also very interesting to compare Jakob Grimm's stretching the character of Loki with the general tendency in German Philosophy toward the Gnostic and Occultist.

  • @UlfHati
    @UlfHati หลายเดือนก่อน

    Story on rewarding students for trading things into a story:
    I worked as a substitute teacher for a bit. One day, I was called in at the last minute for an English teacher. There was really nothing prepared for me, so they said I could show a video or something.
    Instead, I decided to hand out a short story for them to read and discuss. Some of them came up with some wild interpretations that showed great creativity but were very wrong.
    They tried the "The interpretation is up to the reader" tactic. When I told them their interpretations were wrong, and that I was the author of the story, so I know what it's about, they came back with "Well, the author isn't always aware of the meaning of what they write. "
    Unbelievable.

  • @piercesmith1465
    @piercesmith1465 ปีที่แล้ว

    I love you man. I think this may be your best video ever. So plain-speaking, so unpretentious. So helpful for understanding a properly scholarly approach to translation and interpretation. You really did attempt to be even-handed as well. Your point really hit home about American education being so poor at teaching students the basic skills, but then indulging these kind of navel-gazing exercises of little to no value. You're far from a philistine. Whoever says so is probably a pompous dunce.

  • @markcash2
    @markcash2 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I love where you made this video. It makes me miss home. Thanks for posting it!

  • @Mary-nu9yw
    @Mary-nu9yw 3 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    This kind of reminds me of my love for Dostoevsky. I inwardly cringe if someone sees me reading his work in public or sees it on my bookshelf because they inevitably ask some deep question about it or why I read it and I answer, "Dunno. I just like it," like the rube I am. I once joined a subreddit dedicated to his work and came away from it feeling like a simpleton. They're all so damned smart and see things in it that I most certainly have never picked up on. I'll just stick to reading it in private or with the cover hidden in public because I cannot keep up with those conversations. lol

    • @richardgreer459
      @richardgreer459 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Yeah I have a lot of interests that I’ve come to similar conclusions on. I think for me it was Nietzsche at first and also the Norse studies. Every one is a senior expert and critic.

  • @johnhishon9473
    @johnhishon9473 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Gewaltig dankbar Herr Crawford. Guter Vortrag wie immer.

  • @keithwatson4952
    @keithwatson4952 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I agree with your approach on Nose mythology to the extent that you have convinced me to sign up to your Patreon page.

  • @snoway397
    @snoway397 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I'm listening and learning appreciate all you do.

  • @sfyoshi99
    @sfyoshi99 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I hope this doesn't come across as critical because I agree with your points, I just found it funny how many metaphors you used to make them. Of course using them to communicate an idea is completely different from trying to infer them in ancient texts, I just couldn't help but laugh hearing so many while looking at the title "Why I Don't Talk Allegory"
    Maybe this is pedantic, but I'll just tell myself that engagement is good for a youtube channel.

  • @SamuelEstenlund
    @SamuelEstenlund 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS!

  • @robbabcock_
    @robbabcock_ 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Yours is a refreshing attitude to say the least! Thanks.

  • @dcdcdc556
    @dcdcdc556 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I largely agree, though I wonder about two things in light of your arguments:
    1- Just as moderns see one story in different ways--some seeing allegory and some not--, surely some of those who were kicking around in Old Norse times would have understood the stories in different ways as well, even if they weren't informed by modern literary theories. Cultures always have disagreements within them; people with "agendas;" people whose varied experiences may influence the salience or resonance of certain aspects or portions of texts;
    2- While I am not familiar with the Old Norse texts, I know circuituously through my study of Andean ethnohistory (admittedly long ago, I may be getting this wrong) that Old Norse poetry featured kennings, in other words, poetic words or phrases which stood in for other things. In other words, kennings cannot be read literally, because they are by nature metaphorical. The concept of kennings was applied to Moche icognography by an Andeanist who was familiar with Icelandic poetry.

    • @KusacUK
      @KusacUK 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      For kennings, I think there are a few things at play. Firstly, as a purely poetic device to aid the rhythm of the poetry - not such a problem in English where you have multiple words to choose from with similar meanings. Secondly, to aid with alliteration - which features more prominently in Norse/Old English poetry than in modern verse. Lastly though, I think it’s a game of sorts - a form of riddling, which remind me of cryptic crossword clues (those who construct them and those who solve them have a shared knowledge of how these things work).
      Kennings are in the end purely metaphorical. If I write a story about a forest fire, and use “bane of wood” for “fire”, it’s just another way of saying it. The problem comes when someone else comes along and starts over-analysing. Oh, bane of wood… well that could mean “axe” too, therefore the whole story is an allegory for destruction of the Amazon rainforest. Nope. Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar…

  • @alphapithecus3907
    @alphapithecus3907 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Beautiful scenery

  • @Alphqwe
    @Alphqwe 3 ปีที่แล้ว +14

    The problem with allegory is that people place their own values on the subject.

  • @toppothuhmarnin2984
    @toppothuhmarnin2984 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    I like analysis for allegories not because I think the author "really" meant it (probably not) but because good art IMO is applicable to a lot of different experiences, feelings, and thoughts. I often find that old stories fit new events, and I think it's even more mindblowing when the connection is something the author(s) not only didn't intend, but COULDN'T have intended because they had no way of knowing about the thing to which their art applies.

  • @dorkatarmsetcetera9468
    @dorkatarmsetcetera9468 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Fantastic comments! even without allegory, a story has cultural significance. myths generally serve the dual purpose of reinforcing the values of a culture and being entertainment. but the part that you pointed out is the readings steeped in etymological ignorance and Judeo-Christian ethnocentrism. the serpent = Loki is just ridiculous. As you spoke about, the characters of the gods are, for the most part, portrayed as flawed persons that can be emulated, but can also simply BE characters. It doesn't have to be as deep -- especially in regards to modern sensibilities-- but CONTEXT can indeed provide nuance to the text. I do really enjoy the straight-forwardness with this commentary is phenomenal. If you want to add more to the readings of the Eddas, folks can read up on real-world influence and cultural carry-over in Scandinavia. There was one essay I want to read linking Swedish folk sayings with certain Aesir, in particular Loki.
    excellent video, Dr Crawford. Marvelous content as usual, and "can i get to something deeper without destroying that?" is a marvelous comment. I look forward to seeing more from you in the future.

  • @christopherrowley7506
    @christopherrowley7506 3 ปีที่แล้ว +14

    Allegory, no. But meaning that is hidden below the surface is pretty much the M.O. of norse poetry. And hidden knowledge is a common theme in the stories.

    • @christopherrowley7506
      @christopherrowley7506 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      @@sameash3153 I think he's using it right. Allegory is basically retelling a story where the elements of the story are substituted for new elements in the retelling. So the allegorical interpretation of Skírnismál is that Gerðr represents the Earth, and Skírnir represents the sun, or summer light, and his long-winded cursing of her to coerce to unite with Freyr (fertitlity) is the Sun's difficult process of coaxing the earth out of winter and into summer (ie springtime). That would be an allegory. Crawford is saying that is too far for him, but learning a moral from the story--say, you shouldn't give up too much just to be with a romantic partner (Freyr giving up his sword which leads to his doom in ragnarök)--Crawfod seems to be ok with. Or at least he said that he was ok with learning morals from hávamál so maybe this particular interpretation would be a stretch for him too, I don't know. I certainly don't think most of the stories were meant to be didactic. By the way that Skírnismál allegory is the most compelling allegorical interpretation i've heard, which is why I remember it, and I personally like it. But who knows, it is a bit of stretch in some ways.

  • @Jim-Mc
    @Jim-Mc 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I generally agree but us moderns are always forgetting that the people of the past had a much more spiritual worldview. I agree there may be no "allegorical" meaning in the literary sense, but I think there was almost certainly religious meaning some of the time.

  • @rogerwitte
    @rogerwitte 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    I think that you need to know about the social context and way of life of the people who told and listened to the myths. I don't think the original audience would have taken the stories as completely symbolic, but nor do I think that they would have been seen as only literal truth at face value. "How were these stories used by their intended audience?" seems like a important and valid question, even while recognising the limitations on how good an answer we can obtain.
    At the very least, we can ask sensibly how the physical archeology, the constraints of climate and geography and the texts shed light on each other?

    • @nipponaihito
      @nipponaihito 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      That is a fantastic way to look at things.

  • @johnfenn3188
    @johnfenn3188 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    The sanest approach to hermeneutics I have heard for a very long time. Whatever antiquarian interest or impression of poetic power it was amongst 12 -14th century monks which led them to write down these stories is something we can only guess at. Further than that we should not go, because the stories are simply what they are, no more and no less. They are nobody's Holy Scripture, at least not from intent.

  • @H4rd5tyl3
    @H4rd5tyl3 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Besides learning so much about language and how it all relates and connects in so so many different ways over so many languages due all the thousands of years of influence with eachother. Wich btw really is fascinating once you start looking into it, overwhelming for sure, daunting without a question if you don't have the big language gift, but oh so fascinating if you are into history. For wich I'd like to say thanks. Those backdrops are absolutely stunning. What a beautifull piece of nature.

  • @paulaunger3061
    @paulaunger3061 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Love your approach to allegory in these texts. I think allegory, like satire and riddles, depend very heavily on understanding the society that produced them. We know almost nothing about the people who generated these stories, nothing about the writer of the Poetic Edda and very little about Snorri Sturleson - it's pointless trying to suggest that the meaning you as the reader have found in them is the only one available.
    Agree absolutely about the teaching of literature in schools - UK ones are no different. Sometimes the real intelligence lies in unpicking all the detritus of literary theory and actually engaging with the text itself. Likewise the bible. As a young Christian, I suddenly discovered so much more meaning in it when I treated it like a book instead of a sacred relic.
    Other people have quoted Tolkien's words about how much he detested allegory - because it was a domination of the reader's experience, depriving them of the chance ot find their own meaning. A few decades after he wrote that, Barthes introduced us to the concept of 'death of the author'. In both cases, they're the idea of a text having worth for exactly what it is and no more. I think that's the best attitude any reader can take when reading a text of any kind.
    Gorgeous venue for this video! Very beautiful and it reminds me of where I grew up.

  • @abigailsmith-batty925
    @abigailsmith-batty925 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I would love to go to one of your classes on the knowledge you have it's fascinating

  • @Matt_The_Hugenot
    @Matt_The_Hugenot 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Allegory is so prevalent in our culture that we project it back onto simpler stories.

  • @oleringdaljohnsen9856
    @oleringdaljohnsen9856 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    This is so refreshing. As a linguist who many years ago used to work in interdisciplinary gender studies, I often wanted to say: Let’s see what’s in the texts, not what could have been there if the Grimms or Nietsche or Derrida had written it. For instance, I used to be a Montaigne expert, but once the literature people and the poststructural sociologists got their claws into that adorable liberal noblesse de robe man, I wondered primo, if we had read the same texts, secundo, if those people people were aware the Essais were written between 1570 and 1593 and not in 1890, tertio, if they were aware that my beloved Michel Eyqiem sieur de Montaigne had a woman secretary who revised his manuscripts before she sent them to the printers.

  • @clintonlemoine986
    @clintonlemoine986 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Sound advice. Thanks brother.

  • @eliasg.thomas8423
    @eliasg.thomas8423 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    A thousand times yes! I've always thought books were over-interpretated. People read the strangest and weirdest and most obscure things in works of litterature (especially in poetry), when I'm sure more than half the time the author never thought about any of them, and just wanted to tell a good story

  • @m.a.d.g.o.d
    @m.a.d.g.o.d 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    This is similar to what Tolkien said about his works

  • @Vikingjack1
    @Vikingjack1 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    and this is one of the big reason i like your videos :)

  • @darklingeraeld-ridge7946
    @darklingeraeld-ridge7946 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Excellent, but the grey area here is 'meaning' - to turn it on it's head, surely we can't say that these stories are meaningLESS? Allegory is something specific, but there is metaphor, and there is also the shared human experience, across cultures, that one has through images and stories. In other words, asking what is the EFFECT of this story, and if it supports intentions behind it.
    (No screaming, just suggesting. Other hats are available.)

  • @seancarnell1503
    @seancarnell1503 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    To sell you the mineral rights to land most people don't have a surface map of...
    I like that

  • @Tsotha
    @Tsotha 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    You might enjoy the book "The Myth of Analysis" by James Hillman, which contains several amusing criticisms of Sigmund Freud and C. G. Jung's appropriations of Greek mythology which turn out to say more about Freud and Jung themselves than anything else.

  • @Resolvedvirus
    @Resolvedvirus 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I personally love trying to find the deeper meanings in the books and movies that I watch. And, I do admit I have been doing this with the Eddas as well, but at no point have I ever tried to impose my interpretations on others unless they ask me what I think, which most don't. And, I'm okay with that because mostly I do this as a form of creative exercise to keep my imagination fertile.

  • @enmac500
    @enmac500 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    That depends on the English class you're taking. I've taken English classes much more focused on the mechanics of writing as well.

  • @Eulemunin
    @Eulemunin 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Don’t you know that the more see in a text the better you are because only you are the smart!
    End of sarcastic rant, I agree to much is read into things.

  • @rogercarl3969
    @rogercarl3969 4 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    At 9:21 "...I just don't feel entitled to sell you the mineral rights to land that most people don't even have a surface map of." Please don't tell there is no underlying meaning in that statement. Obviously you did not intend to make this a literal statement. Figurative use of language, I would argue, is not an invention of academics of the last two hundred years, but precedes the more literal narratives which are of the modern world. Yes people screw up all the time in interpretation mainly because different cultures in earlier times have different cultural metaphors and we are not privy to them since we did not grow up in that environment where they are relevant.

  • @j3tztbassman123
    @j3tztbassman123 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Some things need only be taken at face value, including most literary works, cash payments, and traffic signage.

  • @joeyc9418
    @joeyc9418 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Reading old stories allegorically may also reflect modern literature where stories are created by one single person with themes and messages in mind whereas ancient myths and legends for the most part developed naturally with no individual writer so the story tellers may not of viewed the stories in any allegorical light

  • @johnobryan6154
    @johnobryan6154 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

  • @Wulframite
    @Wulframite 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    "The bones, tell me nothing."

  • @dionysianapollomarx
    @dionysianapollomarx 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Yeah, allegories are often only good in their proper context, unless its features are minimalistic enough that they could still apply across cultures, like Plato's allegory of the cave or Zhuangzhi's butterfly dream. But an allegory out of the very long epic Bi-ag ni Lam-ang from the Ilocanos of the Philippines, talking about bravery of the warrior the way it does, or the strength of the Biblical Samson, if they get transferred, one would likely import metaphors that would make no sense without the cultural context.

  • @SirRockatansky
    @SirRockatansky 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Nieztsche talked a lot about residual frameworks from Christianity lurking within the values of western culture. I think thats part of what this could be. People try and read other mythological/religious texts the same way they would read the Bible, which is highly allogorical.

  • @ktkatte6791
    @ktkatte6791 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    People see what they want to see. Word choices reflect back the ego that reads them. The hat one puts on in the morning tells many stories to many eyes.

  • @KYLE134jenkins
    @KYLE134jenkins 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    How do you spell the name of the guy who tried to reason that Loki was a god of fire ? Auxocuc ? I can't figure it out xD

  • @GothiGrimwulff
    @GothiGrimwulff 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I think your video on "dream logic" hits the nail on the head. The Lore is most likely seithr, and other "visions", written down in prose. Probably passed down from earlier traditions. We see similar Archetypal threads in other and older traditions. Set vs Apep, Garuda vs Naga, Thunderbird vs Horned Serpent, and more are all similar to Thor vs Jormangandr. For example.
    We'll never know for certain, but these seem to show ancillary evidence of an older myth. Possibly even an original religion or indigenous beliefs of a long forgotten people.
    I think the problem is when people say they're theories are adamant rather than fluid and open to correction if not outright invalidating.
    It's important to accept that we may be, and probably are, wrong. Nothing should be impervious to scrutiny.
    And I'm saying this as a Nordic Pagan TH-camr. All theories can and should be questioned.

    • @shreyvaghela3963
      @shreyvaghela3963 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      I don't know hindu myths are supposed to be taken literally According to scriptures.

    • @GothiGrimwulff
      @GothiGrimwulff 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@shreyvaghela3963 Where does it say that? Hinduism, like many pre-Christian religions, fosters discussion about scripture. It's really only later Abrahamic faiths that preach inerrancy.
      But regardless, just because a religion states that it's inerrant doesn't disprove the consistency of Archetypal Analysis. There's a reason for many similarities around the world.

  • @z.l.burington1183
    @z.l.burington1183 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Just wanted to ask: is the mountain behind you in the Medicine Bow range? Because it sure reminds me of Medicine Bow Peak in southeast Wyoming.

    • @BryceRosenwald
      @BryceRosenwald หลายเดือนก่อน

      I usually don't recognize the backgrounds in these videos but as soon as I saw this one I thought, "Hey, pretty sure I've been there!"

  • @sifridbassoon
    @sifridbassoon 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    sometimes a cigar is just a cigar

  • @Dreoilin
    @Dreoilin 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I find special meaning when I spend time in nature. I dont need any books or Gods for that.

  • @mnels5214
    @mnels5214 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Flannery O'Connor had some really fascinating things to say about allegory, mainly that it wasn't particularly useful to communicate through it because people don't have enough in common to come away with the same understanding of what the author was talking about. Fascinating because if I had to pick the Top Allegorical Writer Ever, it would be her. I don't think a conservative approach to allegory is a bad idea.

  • @zenosAnalytic
    @zenosAnalytic 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I feel like assuming allegory is almost built-in with modern euros, like: living on the otherside of the just constant sophistry of Plato, and the neoplatonics, and the centuries of biblical allegorical literature(and allegorical interpretations of scripture) they inspired, allot of folks just sort of assume allegory is built-in with storytelling(and then theres the related phenomenon of those who look at the myths AS a sort of "pagan scripture" and so also want it to be allegorical to fit their idea of what "scripture" is). I certainly dont think looking for deeper meaning is "wrong", art is art, but I def feel we have a sort of cultural assumption about writing, almost a mysticism, that every text has some deeper "hidden" meaning.
    And also that allot of folks have a kind of vague understanding of what "allegory" even is. They take a particularly meaning from a text, or make a particular connection btwn an event or character in it an one in another story they know, and they call this allegory when, at most, it's a sly reference, homage and inspiration, and/or plagiarism.

  • @bearofthunder
    @bearofthunder 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    How to imagine the mind of an old norse person? We can not erase what we have installed in our minds in this modern age, so we come to this with a modern framework already installed. For example; we have pretty good theories today that the solar system were created by the compression of a cloud of dust due to gravity, which in turn ignited the sun in an explosion that pushed a lot of material outwards. The outer limit of this we call today the Oort cloud. In between the hot center and the cold material around it, the interaction between those elements created the planets. So could this be what the norse creation myth is talking about? Muspellheim/The hot center and Niflheim/the cold material around it? We can not remove our modern knowledge, which can find matching patterns and conclude "this was what the norse people talked about". So...your point seems very clear to me about speculation through our modern eyes.

  • @chriscodrington5464
    @chriscodrington5464 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Yea brother, sound advise for any serious student

  • @charlesbourgoigne2130
    @charlesbourgoigne2130 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    EDIT:
    stories originally were not means of pic and choose entertainment. Stories were used as a means to carry messages/ wisdoms of reality through the ages. People packed their experiences into stories to help fellow people and future generations.
    I mean the Greek tragedies - all tragedies - show negative counterfactuals if you did x - therefore please don't do x. The stories in the bible as an example (like Cain and Abel) are also of mere educational purpose (don't be like Cain, be like Abel etc). They had educational purpose derived from real experiences which evolved into moraliy and law - still transported by stories until it was possible to write them down in law text form.
    Of course stories can fail. The context goes lost. Reality/context changes and stories become meaningless and only the fantasy prevails because people are attracted to fantastical things.

  • @pheenobarbidoll2016
    @pheenobarbidoll2016 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I had a prof that saw everything as a metaphor. And, creepily enough, it was all sexual metaphor. The Road Not Taken, for example, in his interpretation would have been about a virgin and a non virgin. That man turned everything into sex.

  • @Malkoth
    @Malkoth 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Is there a study of maybe the opposite of allegory? Maybe valholl is literally just a burial mound and not some grand after life? Or would that still be allegory?

  • @eagleowl7513
    @eagleowl7513 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Clearly, some texts or stories are allegorical. Like Jesus's parables or Orwell's Animal Farm in two very well known examples. If you don't think the Norse Myths are allegorical like that, I have to say that I find that pretty convincing. But allegory isn't that bad, in my view. What's bad instead is imposing the allegory on the text. The magic of literature is that it can communicate more than its words can tell. If I see something in a text that goes deeper that's fine. What's not fine is imposing this understanding on everyone else or trying to present my reading as the absolute communicative aim of the author. One would need plenty and very strong evidence for such a thing.
    TLDR: As a reader I am free to see whatever I think is there, but I can't just claim that to see this thing was definitely the purpose of the author.

  • @madscientist5969
    @madscientist5969 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Allegorically speaking, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

  • @rebe816us
    @rebe816us 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Loved this

  • @jpdinosaur
    @jpdinosaur 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I like this. I think all this looking into the symbolism crap is just that.

  • @dseelenmagie8811
    @dseelenmagie8811 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    It's along the lines of individuals who read the Eddas and Norse practices and think they are magic conjuring Odin ancestors and they have no perspective to realize they are just Larping and nothing more. "Look a crow"

  • @TheHillsandTheRivers
    @TheHillsandTheRivers 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Esotericising texts has a long history, just look at the Platonists. :-D

    • @schismannihilator4085
      @schismannihilator4085 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Thank you. It's one thing to intentionally put in allegories, or even satirized allegories (lookin' at you. Thus Spoke Zarathustra), cuz the message has far greater clarity. However, it's another beast ENTIRELY to go, as you state, through the Platonic method of "searching for the true world". Academic masturbation in its purest form.

  • @willmosse3684
    @willmosse3684 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    So do you think that the Norse believed the literal truth of the myths - that the gods were literal super-powered persons who really did everything described? I have seen other channels that claim that the myths are metaphors for ephemeral powers in the universe, aspects of the human psyche, etc., and that metaphorical stories about metaphorical beings were just a way to describe truths about these energies and aspects. Is there any evidence that lends itself to either interpretation?

    • @shreyvaghela3963
      @shreyvaghela3963 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Of course why not??? Look at hindus. Their gods are not allegory they are supposed to be taken literally

    • @willmosse3684
      @willmosse3684 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@shreyvaghela3963 I believe there are a mixture of beliefs on this within the Hindu faith

  • @VilcxjoVakero
    @VilcxjoVakero 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank you - I share your frustration, and am interested to learn that this happens with Norse literature. From a religious studies perspective, I can tell you that it is definitely not just a 19+th century thing though - reading the Hebrew Bible allegorically was one of the early Church's biggest things, for instance, and plenty of them went wild with it (e.g. Noah's Ark = Jesus' cross, b/c wooden); I also remember reading Greek allegorical readings of Homer (want to say Stoic?) from before then.
    On one hand I feel like these can take all the richness out of a story, but on the other hand some are as old (or even as successful) as the original text themselves. I think you are on the money with distinguishing between allegories and themes. For myself what I've settled on is thinking of allegory as a great way to _creatively_ read stories and expand on their themes, but a _horrible_ way to simplify and/or explain them, if that makes sense.

    • @VilcxjoVakero
      @VilcxjoVakero 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@sameash3153 well I think every story worth telling has themes that make it relatable to other stories and to the readers' own lives, but not every story is allegorical in the way that say, a parable or an Aesop's fable is. The ultimate case in point for me would be the stories 'behind' the allegorical stories themselves: if the Prodigal Son story is meant to tell a universal story of God forgiving sinners, then presumably that 'universal' story *wasn't* intended as an allegory. But it still has themes - guilt, humility, love, jealousy, God, &c - which makes it relatable to its readers. It can share those themes with other different stories, be they allegorical, mythical, historical fact, whatever.
      The key point we differ on might be how we're using the word 'themes'. You talked about themes being implicit, but I would usually consider them pretty explicit. What would you mean by an 'implicit' theme?
      But yes, you're right to point out that some stories definitely are meant allegorically. And like I said I think allegorical reading can be good, and I even like to do it - I just think it makes a poor substitute for the story itself, especially when it levels out the most fantastic parts.

  • @obviousalias132
    @obviousalias132 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    But but but... The Wizard of Oz was about the Free Silver Movement

  • @stentor1980
    @stentor1980 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    The landscape you're filming from is breathtaking. Is it publicly accessible?

    • @BryceRosenwald
      @BryceRosenwald หลายเดือนก่อน

      I'm about 80% sure that this is Medicine Bow Peak in Wyoming, in which case, yes it is.

  • @danielpanizza
    @danielpanizza 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I agree. And I think the Bible should be treated exactly the same way.

  • @enochrockwell7202
    @enochrockwell7202 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Wholesome

  • @davewalter7823
    @davewalter7823 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Excellent analysis of current English education, except Romeo & Juliet would probably be used to expose a hidden political point, rather than interpreted as an allegory in a traditional sense.

  • @fimbulsummer
    @fimbulsummer 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I believe the people looking for allegory in the Eddas are looking at it from a Christian/classical education paradigm. The strait-forwardness of Old Norse literature is plainly evident in the culture even today of the people who wrote them - what you see is what you get people, no faff and slyly hilarious people. That’s why the Anglo Saxon literature component of my degree was the most boring. All devotional and bloody Christian allegory!

  • @goneforaburton
    @goneforaburton 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    It's one thing to say you "don't think that the myths are susceptible to allegorical analysis", but that is not to say that ["some of"] the myths were "not allegorical". We simply don't know. Some or all or none might have been, and some or all or none might not have been. Snorri must have had some understanding of the power of allegory, so I think the Prose Edda must to a certain extent to "susceptible to allegorical analysis", albeit based on his personal Christian ideas of morality etc. Of course, applying that analysis from our modern perspective is basically a giant rabbit hole, so I understand your caution. But allegory is fun!

  • @MrGalpino
    @MrGalpino 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    What do you mean academics don't teach practical skills? In teacher training we *talk about* practical skills some of the time!

  • @MichaelLoda
    @MichaelLoda 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    If you're not somehow related to Tuomas Holopainen then I don't know... You two are so similar

  • @hoonterofhoonters6588
    @hoonterofhoonters6588 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I can completely understand why you wouldn't want to analyze symbolism of tales from a medieval culture. Much of the cultural context was likely lost. What would be obvious to a Norseman a thousand years ago is obscured now. At the same time, if there is solid grounding to call something symbolic, if it runs perfectly parallel to something else, then I'm going to have a little faith and extrapolate.
    Sometimes writers don't want to be explicit. There was one Rush interviewer who asked if the song, "The Trees" was talking about more than trees. The band member smiled and said that it's just a silly song about trees. The song is very obviously not about just trees. There's a middle ground between taking everything at face value, and asserting that the blue curtains must symbolize depression.

  • @paulpenfold867
    @paulpenfold867 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    J. R. R. Tolkien has entered the chat.

  • @NetTopsey
    @NetTopsey 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    My "favourite" English teachers/professors were the ones who said, "as long as you can support it from the text", and then failed you because your interpretation didn't agree with their interpretation, even though you quoted the text 🙄

  • @philipchurch8772
    @philipchurch8772 3 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    I've known writers who use subtext and they're all cowards.

    • @heysemberthkingdom-brunel5041
      @heysemberthkingdom-brunel5041 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Or they have to contend with censorship of one sort or another...

    • @Brainles5
      @Brainles5 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      You and he were, buddies....wern't you?

    • @philipchurch8772
      @philipchurch8772 ปีที่แล้ว

      ​@@Brainles5This guy got it. 😏

  • @Strykehjerne
    @Strykehjerne 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    This practice of imposing the readers mind over the source, seems to be of little value and often obscures the text Futher. As for Loki and the mythology, I think the best one can do, is make comparisons - without forcing them as parallels to, or explanations of, to other pagan belief systems. Which often feature xolotl or monkey god or simply allow the entire pantheon and deity gallery to be very fluid and interchangeable and correlatable. The sagas are not very well suited to understand the pagan belief system. As they don't really designed to teach or introduce anyone to that "lost" system of animist or practices of the faithful.
    Allegory and symbolic reading of literature is anti hermeneutical unless the author and the context clearly expresses that this is an intended tool for any reading of the text.

  • @SwordTune
    @SwordTune 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Considering how many jokes in medieval works are just sex or potty humour, I doubt the original writers were thinking about putting in any kind of allegory.
    Like the Miller's Tale in the Canterbury Tales. A lot of dirty humour, not as much philosophising.