Ten Forgotten Group C Racers - LM24 Legends You've Never Heard Of
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ก.พ. 2025
- Here are some of the incredible sportscar racers from the legendary Group B era that headlined the Le Mans 24 Hours classic race during the 1980s and early 1990s. Some of them you may never have heard of before - some are ugly, some beautiful. But all have a curious and mysterious history.
Scott Woodwiss talks you through ten Group C racers that nobody seems to remember for one reason or another.
Mirage M12
Veskanda C1
Lamborghini Countach QVX
Norma M6
Alfa Romeo SE 048 SP
Brun C91
Konrad Lamborghini KM 011
BRM P351
Nissan NP35
Peugeot 905 Evo 2 "Supercopter"
Did we miss a long forgotten Group C racer? What did you love about this era of the sport? Who were you favourite drivers? What were your favourite cars?
Tell us in the comments box below! And come and join us online, like and subscribe here on TH-cam and make sure you add us to your social media network!
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That Alfa Romeo can't possibly get more Italian than that. It looks absolutely stunning.
That hunk of shit dont have anything on the iroc boy. God bless America!
Alfa Romeo looks like it could be modern sportscar
Xerro No Vatimo best looking sport cars that’s never been. Simply stunning.
Xerro No Vatimo
Yup
It would actually fit really well in 2020 lmp regulations
Alpha's new concept car is mad
Wow, it looks like the lovechild of a Maserati MC12 and a Toyota GT1.
This is great, the 3.5 litre formula certainly gave us some interesting designs. There was a Mercedes C292 which was designed for the 1992 WSC but never raced. It’s now in the Mercedes Museum in Stuttgart.
thank you ... especially the Alfa Romeo and the Peugeot 905 Evo 2 are awesome ❤❤❤
Wait. "had pistons similar of a rotary engine" uhh
I will invent a piston based rotary engine for make Kazakhstan great nation.
probably just means the pistons were triangular which seems pointless but who knows
Like when he was talking about turbos and brought up a picture of the 787b
@@CatholicKavanagh yazmesh!
@@laurencemoore2105 cinqui
Best looking sport cars ever during these days
I wanted to hear their sounds...
the end of the Group C era is a begining of the supercar modern era
The funny thing about the Veskanda's DQ from the Sandown race in 1988 for using too much fuel was that it was actually a miscalculation by the team which got them DQ'd. Thinking they wouldn't finish the race with what was in the tank, Bowe was called in for a late splash and dash. Unfortunately, the amount of fuel put in during that stop put them over the allowed limit, thus the DQ. However ... when they emptied the tank after the race, the team found that they hadn't actually needed the last stop and the car would have comfortably finished the race with what was already in the tank (the amount that came out after the race was a few litres more than what they put in during the last stop). Had they not stopped, they would have been credited with 8th place outright.
Incidentally, the Veskanda wasn't just a Group C car. As it raced in the Australian Sports Car Championship, it had to conform to the Group A Sports Car rules set down by the Confederation of Australian Motorsport (CAMS). Bernie van Elsen also had the cars builders, K&A engineering in Adelaide where the Australian Grand Prix was held at the time, to also make the car IMSA compliant (i.e. the drivers feet were behind the front axle line) so it could have also raced in America. The Veskanda (an abbreviation of Van Elsen Special K AND A), conformed to 3 different sports car regulations in one hit.
that brun just looks so good in that repsol colors!
That was great! Thanks for compiling it, I really enjoyed it
Great video! Very informative!
Minor correction. The MGN W12 at 5:53 did not have pistons similar to a rotary engine, it had rotary valves.
Minor?
What on earth is a „piston like a rotary engine“ supposed to be..
How can they make such a statement, does the guy not know anything about internal combustion engines?
Stunning video, very interesting.
Imagine the Evo 2 against the 919 EVO, that's a duel I'd want in my wishlist
I'll not lie that Alfa Romeo has to be the most beautiful looking race car i have ever seen just look at the curves😍😍
I would rather be called myself uncompetitive or part of incompetent machine while driving a bad V12 than being victorious while driving 4 cylinder with filthy turbos!! Great stuff mate!!
Much love for V12 and group C!!♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️
Thank you for such wonderful video!!
Awesome - growing up I loved Group C and bought/modified several of the Tamiya RC cars depicting cars of that series.
You included Konrad Lamborghini.. I hit like.
allthough I was not born in the era of group c I still grew a massive interrest after playing Gran Turismo 3. I saw the 787b and fell in love, it shared the windshiel look of a offshore boat, it just looked so insanely radical! so I started studying these monsters and got deeper and deeper into it that I can honestly say that these machines or monsters if you will are the most beautiful cars ever made!
I like these history lessons :D That Alfa is such a beauty :D
Really nice vid forgotten cars some what could of been others never were
Very good report, for those who love sports cars, who competed in the different World Sports Racing Prototypes, Endurance or Group C, really congratulations .. !!
The Alfa looks simply gorgeous. You know it's an Alfa right from the get-go, and they married looks with aero perfectly.
8.38 that jacket and jeans combo is timeless elegance. Superfast lines and obvious ground effects in use even way back when your grandad used to make prophylactics out of used racing car inner tubes. Hhhhhh sensitivity.
I always liked the Aston Martin powered Group C cars from the early to mid '80s - the Nimrod NRA/C2, EMKA C83 & Cheetah G604. Prior to the TWR Jaguars, there was also the Group 44 Jaguar XJR-5
Excellent video. We gear heads love this stuff, winners or not. These cars are simply beautitfically beautiful! As long as they look as if they can roll at 400kmh, it's good enough for us, and some did reach respectably high speeds if not very close to it; all they needed was reliability. Thanks for sharing are love of sports prototype racing porn.....give us more dude!
Supercopter was the French name for the 80s show Airwolf. Quite popular in France at the time, and given the look of the car quite apt.
I loved this era of cars. Group C - more beautiful than Prototypes now.
these cars were so beautiful!
5:48 Pistons like a Rotary 😂
Well, it's actually a good way to describe the MGN engine. Instead of valves actuated by springs and a camshaft, it used one rotary mechanism in each of the banks th-cam.com/video/miTfRLXXV34/w-d-xo.html
Cracking video. That earned a sub.
I'd like to clarify a point, the Alfa, the Brun, Konrad, BRM, NP35 and 905 are not Group C but Categorie 1 cars, the class which replaced the Group C in 1991. Group C cars were still allowed to race beside but they had restrictions.
Peugeot evo 2 looks like modern audy hybrid the French technology is so far.
That Alfa is stunning omg
Great video, Mercedes c9 I enjoy in Assetto very much.
We're rivals :D I use Mazda 787B a lot
The Alfa looks very modern for today
Alfa absolutely gorgeous
Very well done.
What is an "illegal" oil cooler? Sounds like some major BS to me.
It was mounted behind the line of the gearbox which was illegal. An official noticed it while it was on the grid prior to the start.
9:37 that BRM IS gorgeous as well
that alfa makes me weak in the knees
why did that final peugeot never race? seems like a massive waste of an incredible car!
Everything basically collapsed in 92/93 with the series and Peugeot moved on to F1
It was a piece of crap like most French products.
Alen 542 they were the best over the race distance, its a 24h race not a 23:50 race is it. if they weren't the best they wouldn't have won, besides. i think it was in 83 the results were
1. porsche
2. porsche
3. porsche
4. porsche
5. porsche
6. porsche
7. porsche
8. porsche
9. sauber/bmw
10. porsche
that was not luck, that was porkythe porsche being the best of the bunch, again.
I'm sorry but providing the rules are followed then whoever runs the best race won.
"if you're not winning you're not trying hard enough" Colin Chapman (founder of formerly the most successful team in f1 history, team lotus)
Alen 542 at the end of the day (literally) the best car/team wins.
I'd agree if the Toyota had been taken out by a backmarker or puncture. but the car wasn't good enough to go the distance, if it had packed up 12 hours earlier whilst leading everyone would have the same opinion that it wasn't good enough but if it doesn't finish it doesn't matter when it retires, dnf is dnf.
Alen 542 i thought toyota was the only big fish left now? if it is it will be a pathetic race for victory unless all the Toyotas retired.
The Lambo looks like a 962 with Countach rear lights. Lol
Bellissimi ALFA 048 e FERRARI X250. Spettacolare...
I've seen them all race and was there at the 1984 Sandown 1000 watching Colin Bond, Alan Jones, Stefan Bellof, Jochen Mass, Derek Bell, Jacky Ickx, Jonathan Palmer, Jan Lammers, Thierry Boutsen, David Hobbs, Peter Brock and raced.
Great history vid, ya cheeky bastard! LOL
Group C. The pinnacle. Nothing further to add.
Great video of greatest era of racecars. Any chance you can do video on US GTP class racecars from late 80s? That was our golden era with Porsche Jaguar BMW Nissan Toyota Chevy Buick and Ford all on track at same time. Thanks.
Group C absolutely rocked!
Cars are like athletes that are singers too.
Sad that we cant hear those probably awesome voices.
The Alfa Romeo has a v10 that goes up to 13k/rpm, imagine the incredible sound.
Would you like if I screamed at your ear?
Maybe not as "forgotten" as these but no mention of the Allard J2X-C? Almost 10,000 lbs. of downforce @ 200mph was quite an achievement...
I remember when Jaguar showed up at Road Atlanta with 3.5 liter V12: you could hear that car anywhere on the track, and RA's vertical profile is q very steep three-quarters of the letter "W." Talk about your "Sound of Music!!"
As an Australian, an old one, I don't remember that beastie, but there was a thing called the Kadeecha, (which they tell me is an Aboriginal spear thrower) which was driven by a very fast & brave young chap called Bap Romano. Conceptually, it began with a small formula car, formula Pacific or something, think Formula 2. It had a 3.5 litre Cosworth DFV in it, and full on downforce aero. From the mid 80s until the early 90s, it was so much faster than any other circuit racing car in Australia, that it was *ridiculous.* Problem was, it didn't really comply with the rules of any class run in Australia at the time. They used to let it run in sports-sedan from time to time, and it used to wop the field so hard it was ridiculous. This thing would get to the end of the front straight, at Surfer's Paradise, and turn right under the bridge without any lift at all, at about 330 km/h, with something like 5g of lateral acceleration... A V8 supercar of the time, would brake and go through there are about 200... It lapped Surfer's about 40 seconds a lap quicker than a V8 super... It was just obscenely fast!
Anyone got any more info on this?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaditcha
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romano_Racing
..."The K583/WE84 was at first powered by the 3.0L Cosworth DFV V8, originally developed for Formula One. "
That car had real, functional aerodynamics, and it would get to the end of the front straight and do what no other fast car I have ever seen could do, it could take the kink at the end completely flat, and only start to brake after it was completely straight. Mind you, you needed balls like a hephalump to do that. Of course, that's the one thing Bap Romano carried around in a wheelbarrow... Great driver skill was not quite Bap's thing. Testicles the size of basketballs - that's what he will go down in history for.
The BRM p301 has a striking resemblance with the later P675 class cars in prototype racing. Especially the Lola's
You only have 700 subs. (I'm 699!) This is the content I want. I love this kind of stuff!
all these cars are so pretty! The White Nissan P35 is stunning. 11:16, 11:43 ver ver niiice
FYI, "Supercopter" is the French title for Airwolf.
Goddamn that Alfa Romeo SE 048SP is a beautiful car
Oh my sweet bebbeh Jesus that Alfa.... 💋❤
Edit: And that Konrad Lamborghini Prototype, too. Unbelievable how beautiful these cars were and how I have nevver clapped eyes upon many of them...
Group C was the best!
The Alfa allegedly produced more downforce than every Peugeot up to 1993 (the 905 evo 2 surpassed it) while still reching over 220. Too bad it never raced.
Allard J2X-C comes to mind.
Those Sauber/Mercedes C11 look and sound brutal. 5.0l, cross plane, twin turbocharged V8. One piece, carbon, monocoque subframe. 650kg with fluids, no ballast.
supercopter looks inssane!!!!!!
Mazda 787b is my favorite car of the group c , his sound is fantastic and orgasmic
I was hoping to see The Corvette GTP. That car was severely underfunded. I think it may have won a race though...not too certain.
Toivonen was a driver in sports car racing? Never knew that!
Subbed
Great vid. Thank you.
One you missed ?..... ARGO JM19 ;)
So true!! What an epic car!! Loads more content coming soon!!
3:21 Fellow racing legend Dick Johnson...
that alfa romeo looks like a proper toyota gt-one prototype looker... to say it was developed in 1990 says alot.
Pistons similar to that of a rotary... same valves and camshaft no doubt!
Beautiful, beautiful! Viva Italia! Here in the UK they all drive German cars..boring and soulless - ok, BMW E30 and some Porsches but to the rest who criticise Alfa and Italian cars I say this: don't use Momo, Brembo, Sparco, OMP, Italian leather stichted seats, Pirellis, Oz, Speedlines, Weber.. i could go on. Viva Mediterannia👏🍷
I had no idea there was an Evo 2 of the 905.
"Everything was better turbocharged" - really? So the XJR's...?
I don't care if I've never heard of these forgotten Group C cars.
How can they be legends, when I've never heard of them??
That Alfa with a V10 would have been magnificent
Bloody Norma. More synonymous with the back of the grid than Silverstone Sid.
Good video, even if mistakes:
05:52: The sentence "...with pistons similar of a rotary engine" is technically incorrect (rotary engine have rotors, not pistons) and historically inaccurate (there was nothing in the MGN pistons that resembled rotary engine parts)
06:42: Lancia is and already was then part of the Fiat group, and raced (competitively) in sports car racing in the first half of the 1980s.
07:36: The joke about Switzerland and sportcars misses the point that Sauber, a Swiss outfit and bonafide constructor, raced in this category since the late 1970s (and to the point of actually responding for Mercedes official program in the WEC...)
07:44: A more accurate description would have been to say that Walter Brun ended his association with Giampaolo Pavanello and his Euroracing Team (Eurobrun = Euroracing + Brun).
08:37: Franz Konrad is Austrian, not German.
12:45-12:51: Those are obviously screencaps from a videogame (the image that preceded them isn't).
I can clarify a few points on this, as I'm the guy who wrote the script and voiced it. I'm happy to put my hands up on one or two of the mistakes, however on some of those mentioned:
The whole "pistons like a rotary" remark, I probably worded incorrectly. I took the info from an article on the Norma on the Carmrades blog, which mentioned the W12 engine had rotary valves (which is mostly likely what I meant instead of pistons). The article does mention, to quote, "This innovative concept utilized small cylinders with spaces cut out in them, working in a similar fashion to the rotor in a Wankel-rotary engine."
On the Swiss joke, that's aimed more to their general dislike of cars and motorsport in general ever since it had been banned from the Le Mans '55 incident (no jokes on that event of course). Sauber is/was a team operating in Switzerland rather than racing in it.
On the Alfa point, I know that Lancia raced in the 80s in Group C, I even referred to it in the intro. What I meant in that part was that at the time the Fiat Group was considering how to badge this car to enter it, Lancia had moved on to focus entirely on dominating rallying and didn't need any more help enhancing their reputation through motorsport, so Alfa Romeo was a logical choice in order to help boost their own image in motorsport at the time.
And on the 905 Supercopter, I imagine that as real life images of the car are hard to come by, using some depicting the car in a sim that were available were the best solution to ensure there was enough material for that part.
realy hoped the hyper cars would bring back those days, but le mans changed the rulez:*
The Norma M6 didn't have "pistons similar to a rotary engine". The whole point of a rotary is that it doesn't have pistons.
The MGN W12 did have rotary valves, cylinders with holes in them that rotated in time with the engine instead of the conventional poppet valves that go up and down
Also, the V6 they replaced it with came from Buick's IMSA Lights program, not Alfa Romeo.
yeah, we knew they existed. but it's fun to watch regardless.
Sad to see several of these attempts were to meet the Ecclestone inspired change to a 3.5 litre engine for Group C. It is claimed that he was unhappy with the manufacturer support for Group C whereas F1 was the work of the small specialist manufacturers and described by the then head of MB's Group C operations as Banks chasing cigarettes. BE wanted this big money into F1 and the only route was to bring in essentially an F1 spec motor and persuade Peugeot to evolve into into it. The attrition rate at Le Mans in 1992 marked the end for Group C.
BRM also lent their name and branding to a Rover 200 hatchback I seem to remember, that sums them up in later life I reckon.
konichiwa wow i thought i wsa a T O YO TA fan..thanx
''Pistons like a rotary''
5:51
kek
You should do one on the Can-Am series
#ChallengeAccepted
Downforce UK oh yeah great Channel to 👍
Did we miss a long forgotten Group C racer? What did you love about this era of the sport? Who were you favourite drivers? What were your favourite cars?
I adored the Peugeot 905s, the Evolution 2 looked sexy as hell!!
I wish the Alfa Romeo SP had raced, it's my favourite unraced Le Mans car of all time.
i think that today`s toyotas , porsches and audi and peugeots are group c cars or their evolution , which was interrupted in 90`s because of stupid decision to use f1 engines in prototypes
Para mi fue y sera la mejor epoca de Le Mans, elegir uno es dificil pero algunos de mis favoritos eran el Minolta y el 787B.
Can anything be legendary if noone has heard of it?
What about the Toyota GT One and the Toyota 88CV?
Everybody had BBS wheels back then
Haha. Every classic car build has BBS still to this day
Ray's on the 787Bs?
May I ask you where is it possible to get the pictures (and the concern to use them of course) for the Alfa Romeo SE 048 SP? I wrote an article about that car and cannot find anybody who owns the rights for the pictures. Thanks a lot!
ALFA ROMEO SE048 SP
looks good.
I think the Peugeot was practiced at the last race of the season at Magny Cours but they decided not to race it.
Salut my friend super car super video subscribe subscribe.
The Alfa is so good looking
It's a shame we don't have such diversity in prototype class racing anymore. P2 is basically spec racing at this point, and P1 is too expensive and complex for anyone but manufacturers with the deepest pockets to race in competitively, and they all look basically the same anyway. IMSA sort of has something going with their DPi/P2 class but it will be limited to only that series and also the non-P2 teams are all factory cars.
great footage shame was no sound or action shots
One day, we hope to get to that point!! But thanks for the comment!!
That's a good looking car the Alpha
O homem sabe muito bem fazer carros maravilhosos, o que o homem não sabe é o que fazer com esses carros depois que param de funcionar.