Avoid Switzerland’s FAILED High-Speed Train!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 เม.ย. 2023
- The railways in Switzerland are known for their top quality, but it doesn't always go to plan. I'm riding on the SBB 'TWINDEXX Swiss Express', a double-deck high-speed train intended to be Switzerland's flagship fleet, and finding out just what went wrong.
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Journey Details:
Origin: Geneva Cornavin
Destination: Zürich HB
Company: Schweizerische Bundesbahnen (SBB CFF FFS)
Train: SBB 502 'TWINDEXX Swiss Express'
Accommodation: First Class Seat (1st)
Distance: 275 kilometres / 171 miles
Price: 154.00 CHF (£133.30 / €156.80 / $160.10)
Time: 2 hours 46 minutes, arrived on-time
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I took this train last summer not knowing this, and I didn't notice. It is absolutely not so bad that you should avoid it and travel around it somehow, as the thumbnail suggests.
it's clickbait. can't be too shocked can we? haha, the nature of youtube.
@@cael8948 they dont have to. its just one of those bad channel.
@@cael8948 Actually it's not clickbait. I'm German but live in Switzerland. And this train is even by the press described as a "failure"
@@ManuelSteiner Actually, it is clickbait. These trains are a failure, particularly for Bombardier, because they dont work as advertised and were delivered behind schedule. Bombardier had to deliver 3 trains free of charge and they had to pay compensation fees for delayed delivery. From a passenger point of view, these trains are perfectly fine and there's no reason to avoid them. Problems that caused frequent breakdowns and delays early on have been sorted out and the DoSto is currently one of the most reliable means of transport in the world. As a German you are certainly aware that a train considered a failure by the Swiss is still lightyears ahead of the best the DB has to offer.
@@adrianguggisberg3656 I thought there were reports of people becoming "übel" when on the top level of the train. And yes, "As a German you are certainly aware that a train considered a failure by the Swiss is still lightyears ahead of the best the DB has to offer." Yes, I 100% agree
"As you can see, it is only half an hour until my train leaves."
Every Swiss person: Then what are you already doing there?
Hahahaha, good point! 😂
Filming takes a bit of time though. :)
Good video. I’m a Brit living in Switzerland and I have to say you’ve been a bit harsh on the train infrastructure. The train you took offers a good service ( I take it once per week) and has state of art fittings. I’ve not seen anything similar in Europe. Also you omitted to show the best views along the stretch of line between Lausanne and Fribourg. This view is stunning and runs for several kilometres directly above the lakeside wine growing area, across the lake Leman with views to Evian town in France. It’s UNESCO classified. The view you showed between Geneva and Lausanne is just average for Switzerland. For tourists rail travel is expensive but when I tell you that I have an unlimited rail pass valid all over Switzerland 365/365 for Swiss Fr 335 per month, the railway is not expensive.
And even the boats!
And busses
Exactly. Last year I regularly took this train from Bern to Lausanne and the view of the vineyards, just as you approach Lausanne, still blows me away every time. As a Swiss person who has taken many different trains, I can say that all of them are expensive as a base line and this one is perfectly fine. It’s a normal line, after all, not a specific panoramic luxury coach. And the views are amazing.
I agree.
I'm a Brit living in zug
I was in Switzerland in February, and I can't say enough how extremely well the railway works. Even if the original goal was not achieved for this class of trains, it is FAR from a failed train or network.
I dare, to everybody complaining about these, to come to Manresa and commute everyday to Barcelona, and you'll see the privilege that you have there.
Could it be better? Maybe. Is it a failure? Absolutely not!
I think most Swiss wont complain about this train, I certainly dont. Ive ridden on it and found it just fine. Maybe those double decker trains with the big locomotive up front are more comfy, buuut this wasnt bad and I really enjoyed the big tables they had in second class. Also most Swiss have a thing called a Halbtax Abo, which is 100 francs a year and allows you to get Tickets throughout the whole country for all companies, like die Post, ZVV and stuff like that for half the price. Usually people riding these longer duration routers have a full subscription so they dont pay anything, tho that isnt cheap either, it makes commuting possible at a decent price compared to what youd pay if you bought the ticket each day.
Can you explain how ur commute from Manresa to Barcelona is bad, because i have the feeling like the Ferrocarils are very slow in comparison to the normal Rodalies. Is it that or something else?
@@Manu-ww9pt Sure, FGC are not an option, because as you say, are very slow.
So, take the bus 5:40, then R4 06:16, then bus V27 7:38 and arrive to the office by 7:55...
The point is, R4 used to take, from Manresa to Sants, just 1:07 back in 2000. Just check how much longer takes now.
Of course I don't do that, I just drive, 1 more hour of sleep in the morning, and an extra hour of free time in the evening.
@@Manu-ww9pt The main point was that, even if that Swiss train is a "failure" I used it back in February and it was GREAT in comparison to our underfunded trains.
I measured the speed and length of travel on GPS. from the airport to my destination:
56,7km in 38 minutes total.
If the train Manresa-Barcelona was like that, many people would use it! But instead you get:
~60km in 1h, 20 minutes.
*THAT* is the point. A train that is supposed to be a failure, is incredible, and ours, well, you know. Sucks big time.
Nonsense! You obviously don't live here and have not experienced the railways here at all.
The video turns out to be a bit more objective and balanced than the sensationalist title.
I do agree that the Twindexx is over all a bit of a disappointment compared to the other available options, but it's good that you pointed out that by visiting the restaurant car, you can still make it a great journey. And it's got the better restaurant car than the ICN, for example. The SBB would have probably done better by choosing a luxurious version of the Stadler KISS 200 variant, but it's easy to state that in hindsight. The Twindexx concept looked good as a concept, but was probably just a bit overengineered. We would call it a "eierlegende Wollmilchsau", meaning an "egg laying wool milk pig" literally, and figuratively a design that attempts to fulfill many roles and ultimately is mediocre in all of them.
Agree, the title feels a bit like clickbait.
Hahaha, that's a cool saying! 😅
@@SuperalbsTravels Yeah, I was waiting to learn something horrible about this train, but that never happened.
@@SuperalbsTravels what is Metronom
@@silvianbauer1979 It's a German private operator.
This is interesting. I've been living in Switzerland for almost 7 years and I've never hear about a train that's so bad that it should be avoided. ??? I've taken the IC multiple times from St. Gallen (Rorschach) to Geneva, which is the longest line in Switzerland. It was fine.
I am from Switzerland and I regularly travel just for fun. I find the Twindex quite fine and nice to travel on. However, compared to the IC2000 double floor ones, the Twindex feels a bit cheap and more like a local train. I find the seats just ok but nothing special, they are kind of hard. However I definitely have things to praise. While I find the 2nd class optically average, I find the interiors of the first class and the dining car look fantastic! In fact, this is by far my favourite dining car of any swiss train! I always try to sit down here. Because I love to work on the tables which are easily big enough to use your computer. So all in all, I don‘t find the train bad at all. But I still think the best train that the SBB offers is the IC2000, both old and modernised.
Thanks, I agree the dining car is actually really nice looking too!
@@SuperalbsTravels I actually live in Lausanne, which you passed in this video! So greetings! 🙋♂️
Nice one! 👋
I don't like the IC2000 because they feel too dark to me, my favourite train is the Stadler "Traverso" that goes on the line from Chur to Bern, but it's single deck
@@drvic10k You need to find refurbished IC2000 carriages, they fixed exactly that;)
And I agreem the Traverso is definitely the best train on the network...
Miss SBB so much. A ride along the Lac Léman was truly a luxury in life.
SBB The Best
"Failed" is more than a tad strong.
As they have abandoned some of its key features due to problems, I think that it is a fair assessment!
It might not be the best train we have here in Switzerland but to say that it’s a failed train is really not true. I drive it very often and now it‘s a lot more reliable.
Swiss public transport ist just awesome. I use it every day since 9 years. Before that i used to drive to work by car. I have never looked back. Train rides mean freedom. The freedom to go everywhere while working, reading, watching a movie, playing card games, listening to music, write your journal, have a chat, look at the scenery and mind about your self, sort things out or just have a good nap. Safely, reliably, on time and always relaxed. If you buy a half fare card in conjunction with sbb easy ride app it will also be cheaper than owning any car and super easy to use. Or you go for a GA, but that one is very costly and only for superfrequent users. I also have a car. But mostly i can't be bothered to suffer the swiss road traffic during peak hours.
Yes, you are right. But you also save a lot of time if you have a car. 45 min = public transport, 15 min = car
Well Im defenetly with you on the nap part
and now you have half fare plus
@@harman6719 sure, i agree on the time argument. But in the car i cant use that commuting time for myself. I am just a driver burning through money and time. In the train i can do work, pay my bills, go through my tasks...it is a a matter of how i use my time. Driving is great, but lost productive time. And mostly it is very unsettling on the roads anyway. Lots of stressed out drivers 🙈
I don't think Switzerland even needed a "high-speed train"!
You're right. That is also the reason why this is not a high-speed train. Maximum speed of 200 km/h.
The train is OK actually. Not as good as the old IC2000 or ICN (my favorite) but not nearly as bad as your title suggests. I just don't like the seats. As for pricing, no one pays 154 chf. The 50% reduction card makes sense if you travel just twice a year between Zurich and Geneva. And if you know when you travel, the chf 100 1st class travel card gives you unlimited train travel in all public transport across the country. That's really good value.
And this is how Switzerland invented tourist-subsidised trains
Tourist subsidised may well be the case, if they didn't have so many different great value passes. It's a very strange system.
@Superalbs Travels To use those passes, one must first know they exist, and then they must travel frequently enough for the pass to be worth it. Hence why I'm saying that it's tourist subsidised, because tourists are basically the only ones paying full price.
No, it's not OK. I use this train regularly to travel between Zürich and Luzern, and the continual wobbling and shaking is extreme and infuriating. It is so bad that on the upper deck it is impossible to write with pen and paper, so the generous table is not a lot of use to me.
@@DanCojocaru2000 actually Swiss rail makes more money on transporting goods across the Alps then tourists..
Nice capture of that CFF logo at Geneva! I've never noticed that before, cool!
Yeah, it's a really nice classic design! 😃
The U. S. should be so lucky to have a failed high speed train such as the TWINDEXX Swiss Express. I would feel right at home because all Amtrak trains are bumpy as hell and rarely run on time. I am very impressed with the attractive dining car with white table cloths, live plants and expansive menu. Trust me, Europeans are spoiled and so lucky to have such wonderful trains despite high prices and a few design flaws here and there. Americans love to brag we are the greatest country in the world but we sorely lack decent passenger rail service and universal health care for all. Thanks for sharing.✌😃
US no time and money for all its citizens. Only 1 % get the benefits.
Wouldn't say "failed". Sure, it's not as good as originally planned but it's still a good train capable of offering a nice and comfortable travel experience.
Thank you for this carefully documented contribution.
Title = clickbait, whooo!
This latest SBB double-decker is called "Twindexx" by the manufacturer; the SBB call it FV-Dosto "long-distance double-decker".
Speaking of shaking - this is what happens when you order a train that only exists on paper and is supposed to serve all kinds of almost incompatible purposes - and when aloof technocrats from the supply companies want to land the contract for all the world. In order for the curve compensation to work, the bogie support was designed in a way that now makes coarser deflections. The SBB have given up the fight for the curve compensation - now the bogie would actually have to be redesigned, but this is too expensive. What's worse: the timetable "spider" in French-speaking Switzerland to be made possible by faster curve travel ("smart solution") is now obsolete! And there is no money for elaborate track straightening ("concrete solution") to serve this purpose.
Speaking of prices: Compare with average living cost and wages in Switzerland - and the prices are understandable (and compare with the price of an equal long car journey; with "Mobility", it costs about 200.-CHF - without possibility to walk around and go to the toilet, let alone to the dining car; and the journey takes 1/2h longer - at least).
Swiss inhabitants who travel without the (quite cheap) half price season ticket have only themselves to blame.
Thank you! :)
The prices are high, you are right, but practically anybody pays the full price. There is the so-called Half-price-pass which costs CHF 185 per year. Whith this pass you get every ticket at half price, regardless 1 or 2 class. There are other opportunities to save: Day-tickets, Economy tickets ( only available for certain journeys and certain times) To my knowledge the half-price-pass is also available for a month
Swiss people’s~Narrow minded & orthodox💩
With the 1/2 price subscription (which is relatively inexpensive at CHF165/year, so everybody has it) the Swiss train prices are quite reasonable given the overall high price level in the country. First class tickets in the UK are even more expensive. A comparable 1st class one way ticket from London the Manchester is between £150 and £170 and there is no equivalent to the Swiss 1/2 price subscription.
I just checked; for a single first class ticket from London to Leeds, which is exactly the same distance as this journey, tomorrow morning at 0900, the price quoted by LNER was £257.80! - almost double the SBB price.
The full price fare is basically a way of making money off foreign tourists as, like you say, pretty much all Swiss residents who use the trains (and lake ferries) at least semi regularly will have the half price card which pays for itself after just a few journeys.
If you chose to drive with first class you not only pay for the interior, you also pay for less people, for a quiet working seat and for a save seat because in the night you will find drunk people in the second class.
Extreme title for the overall “average” review. Aside from some shaking and the price, nothing bad happened.
These trains were supposed to be the world's first tilting double decker trains. They would have enabled SBB to expand their integral time table to further cities and improve service overall. Since they had to abandon the WaKo, it now seems more likely, that more dedicated high speed lines have to be built to connect those further major cities to the integral time table. The very thing they wanted to avoid with the purchase of these trains.
In Bombardiers defence, when SBB launched their tender for their new high capacity IC fleet, the list of requirements for the new train was ridiculous: An innovative double decker high capacity EMU with all the comfort and amenities, a fairly high top speed and some sort of tilting system that does enable higher cornering speeds - all of that for a reasonable price per unit. I'm pretty sure that Siemens, Stadler or Alstom would have equally struggled to come up with a train, that literally does it all without any issues.
Interesting to know that about the tender. Thanks! :)
Sometimes it's better to pass on a Tender instead of trying to do to much for little and disappoint.
No the Swiss Government decided actively against building any high speed rail network until 2050. after that its uncertain. It will invest in further local networks and density and so on but does not want to further shorten trips between big cities. It only wants to be able to beat the car and the train does that 99% of the time.
The Swiss government did a longtime study and found out that people generally tend to plan a certain time slot for commuting and that this slot barely changes, meaning if the train ride between Zurich and bern gets 30min shortened, most people would move 30min further away from the city contributing further to urban sprawl.
The top priority of the government is to lessen urban sprawl and to convince people to build more densely. It has some part to do with habitat and nature destruction especially in todays times but much more so with the destruction of the Swiss landscape Image, especially when it was first conceived in the 60s and 70s. The decision to build no High speed Rail was made in the 80s with the Bahn 2000 project and it was actively stated there shall be no high speed rail. In 2000 the SBB and Swiss government further invested in this Idee and decided against any high speed rail until 2035. Three years ago in 2020 they did a similar study and again came to the same conclusion and stated their long-time plan until 2050 does not include any high speed rail and most likely neither after that.
The fastest the any Swiss train goes is outside it's own border in Italy, Germany and France. In Switzerland trains can reach their top speed only in the 50 km long Gotthard base tunnel and no where else. By some it's consider the only Swiss high speed Rail.
It's sad to hear they gave up on the technology just the same was as British Rail did in the very early 80s with the APT. Seems that not all the lessons were learnt from that project.
@@carlarrowsmith It's a shame. I think the train model had potential in other European countries. Rail travel is on the rise and I'm pretty sure rail operators in countries like the UK or Italy would have looked into tilting double decker express trains to boost capacity at some point.
I believe the title serves a bit too much as click bait. Hating on these trains by the Swiss seems to be at par with the Germans hating on the ICE4 😂 however, the biggest let downs you have experienced also go for the old loco hauled double deck and single deck cars from SBB intercity’s. I’ve traveled on both in first class and was underwhelmed at best. They have similar seats and zero protection against pressure differences in tunnels, as opposed to the Twindex. Even though Bombardier definitely made a mess, it also seems the Swiss just like to hate EMUs in general, unless they are from their own Stadler. 😌
I wouldn't go as far as that: The ICN as an EMU is generally well liked. The legendary "Roter Pfeil" was one of the first EMUs and is still loved reaching cult status. But you're correct when it comes to the latest models: The NINA was never that popular, not really because it's a EMU but for its dense 3-2 seating in 2nd class. And the Twindexx is not liked just because it pales in comparison with the Giruno or even the cheaper SOB Traverso / Gottardo Flirts.
I don't think it's just because the trains are not from Stadler. The ICN (SBB RABDe 500) Trains were from Bombardier aswell, and as far as I can remember there weren't as many issues with these back then. I know people from germany where the Twindex is used in Regional traffic and they have similar issues but they are not that apparent, because they don't run them at the same speeds.
@@markusstudeli2997 I think everything pales in comparison to the Giruno :D I have only seen it on youtube but this summer I travel from Zürich to Lugano, so I hope to catch one then....I think part of the trains on this route are still the pendolinos?
What I mean however is that the older ICs have the same rather minimalistic comfort as the Twindexx when it comes to seat quality and general design though :) indeed a lot of FLIRTS and other trainsets - especially from regional carriers in Swiss like BLS or SOB look even better.
@@LukeKenobi1 I rode in 1st class car on DB double decker regional train between Berlin and Magdeburg last September during Innotran2022 and it was the smoothest and most quiet ride I've ever experienced since I started riding trains in the 1940's. Maximum speed was 100mph and it felt like we were floating on Cloud 9. ✌🥰
People hated the ICN and cisalpino because of the tilting technology in curves. The ICN is still my all time favourite train. Smooth, quiet and comfy seats.
Nice video, but the title feels like clickbait. I came expecting a nightmarish wreck of a ride, and just found a somewhat mediocre train instead.
I found this feeling in many comments too. Your videos are incredibly informative and entertaining to watch, so you should be a little bit more objective with your titles in my opinion. Otherwise you risk leaving viewers disappointed
Thanks! :)
Oh, believe me, to someone who is used to IC2000 or ICN, the Bombardier train is a complete disaster. It shakes so much, that one can't work on a laptop, or read a book comfortably (smacked my head against the window a couple of times). It's simply the principle of Bombardier wanting the tender, promised more than they could deliver (the banana ripening in the customers kitchen...) and then being unable to supply SBB (and with that the Swiss Federation and the Swiss taxpayer) with the product they've sold... So.. no, it is a failed train, and in my opinion the worst long distance ride one can take in Switzerland. (OK, the old Cisalpino ETR 470 and ETR 610 are strong competition, especially ETR470 who would have gotten first price in awfulness but thankfully has been replaced by Giruno 😅)
I used it a few times last year on an Interrail trip and never thought it could/would be a bad train, well not an amazing experience but just a modern and clean train. I can´t remember anything I disliked about it.
The difference between 1st and 2nd class is less noticeable in Switzerland than abroad. It is more the gain of a little more space, because the trains are usually well utilized and the 2nd class is therefore very full.
The underground station at Zurich HB does not alone allow direct connections to St. Gallen, as you described. That has nothing to do with it. This part of the railroad line allows an tunneled bypass to Zurich Oerlikon and from there on towards eastern Switzerland. You can also get to St. Gallen directly above ground, but then the trains go through the city.
@@katankya yes, I wrote that. bypass to Oerlikon
yeah, first class is just a better guarantee of not being in a full carriage. There’s a video on the loco-hauled Voralpen Express (so the one before the Traverso) which shows it really well. Some first class carriages are in a 2+1 layout sure, but then there are some in the same 2+2 layout as second class, and the video shows both of them.
@@marko_ys In these "new" trains the seats in first class are the same model as in the second, there are only a few seats less than in second. The old coaches had a "real first class" ;) (most of these "fancy" first-class using youtubers are too young to know how the first class coaches were in the 90s, comfortable, and smoking areas :) ) But in the busy hours, some of the first class coaches are overfull, and in second i have an own 4-seats appartment. Its because there are a lot of people to buy an upgrade, and so the first is full...
@@stevesbahnkanal8108 yeah, it seems like the seats keep on getting less comfortable, just like in airlines, for increased Capacity or plain misery. however, I’m not interested in getting black lungs so I think the no smoking is a good thing.
@@marko_ys Earlier there were "Raucher" and "Nichtraucher" coaches/compartments, so no one was obligated so be a passive smoker. Service for all passengers :P
I personally am not a big fan of these units. They have high capacity but having to commute on one every day makes it a horrible experience. I believe the units have been improved since a couple months ago since they used to shake a lot more but it’s still nowhere close to the comfort of the old IC2000’s. The lighting is also harsh and I find them to be quite often dirty. They just don’t feel very high quality.
Yeah I know what you mean, the older sets do seem nicer though.
@felixpgames9639 I agree with this. Since SBB abadoned the plans with the "WAKO"-Roll compensation, they became much smoother, especially on the Mattstetten - Rothrist high speed line. However, the IC2000's are still much smoother than the FV-Dosto's.
Would it reassemble all points at once, and unfortunately it consume takes btw 1 year or beyond.🤔
Whatever software changes will be made, the ride comfort will never be the same as on an IC 2000. The reason for this is, that the active lateral suspension of the car body, which is required for the WAKO system. Even the WAKO system is now not used to go faster in curves, this will not change.
These trains really are fine. I gone on one myself and I tried to feel a difference in the overall movement of the carriage in relation to others but I really didn't feel a big difference. The interior though is a bit like the "Zürcher S-Bahn" and not like a high-speed rail and is therefore also not fully silent. This is where the IC2000 has the edge. They are really comfortable, silent and you really have to look outside to see if you're actually moving or not.
The Problem with those units is that they ordered so many of them that we are probably stuck with them for decades. The old (refurbished) double decker intercity trains are still much better, unfortunately, they now normally don't run on the main lines.
you could always sell them to germany ;) the new "intercity" trains (with Twindexx Vario or Kiss) by DB have lost the restaurant which is a pity
its funny how they've already ordered new ones from stadler and they're already in use running on some inter-regional services
@@girpe2471 These 60 KISS are IR (interregional) variants running max 160 km/h, so not quite in the same train category as the Twindexx. But this purchase made a year ago probably means that the Twindexx won't be relegated to IR role.
Alstom even provided a few extra sets as a compensation for the delay! 🙂
Yes, with the amount of Twidexx we have and the refurbishments of the older double decker IC and the ICN we will have to wait for a long time for new IC models.
"The Problem with those units is that they ordered so many of them that we are probably stuck with them for decades"
As the UK have done with the Hitachi units, we are stuck with their poor seats and ride for probably 3 decades. At least the Swiss selected warm lighting not the ARC light brightness in the Hitachi sets.
I feel like the title and thumbnail image are a little poor in taste. It's not like these units completely diverge from Swiss standards for trains. While they may not completely live up to expectations they are still way better than competing offers in neighbouring countries.
Clickbait title. There is nothing, anyone has to avoid. The problem with the Bombardier Twindexx were in our news, multiple times, bombardier screwed it. Train had its issues, now it works.
I travel from Lausanne to Romanshorn on a daily basis and sometimes I have to take a twindexx train particularly from Bern to Lausanne, the trains that run to Romanshorn are the older double deckers with larger seats and the first class seats are also noticeably bigger and recline further. Every time I get into one of the new double deckers it feels like a newer cheaper version.
All major stations in Switzerland are mini-malls, as the stations are excluded from the law saying all stores must close at 6:30 PM. Stores in the stations can be open longer... so I guess rents for getting a space in a station must be quite high. At least in Berne and Zurich I didn't notice price differences between regular stores and station stores, everything was equally overpriced everywhere.
The prices are high, but they are set based on the Swiss people salaries, which are also higher than in the rest of the Europe. Commuters probably buy the yearly pass of 3860 CHF, valid on all trains, 2nd class.
Te quality of service is given more by the timetable (probably the best in the world) and network density, rather than by the comfort, given the fact that even your train, connecting the biggest cities in the country, needed less than 3h for the ride.
A 200 km/h speed is not a high speed, 200 is the limit between conventional and high speed rail, at least according to the EU's Technical Specification for Interoperability which, even if Switzerland is not part of the EU, are being applied in Switzerland also.
In 2016 I traveled form Zurich to Bern and back, but not in a Twindexx train. The ticket price was 50 CHF from Zurich airport to Bern, on 2nd class double decker... an insanely over-priced ticket for my East Europe salary. Fortunately, I didn't have to pay (I have some work-related advantages :) ), but my colleague from a different (not-rail) company paid this amount.
By the way, I saw more comfortable 1st class cars on DB's regional trains from Berlin to Frankfurt/Oder.
Good points. Thanks for sharing! 😁
Indeed about the great timetable! L'horaire cadencé" is so pratical and clever in Switzerland. Punctuality is fantastic too. Not to mention the "trains à crémaillère" taking you to the mountains and to the top of Europe! It is just miraculous to be able to travel by train so easily and everywhere in such a geography! Please consider to edit the title of your video as it is a bit of a nonsense. Nothing failed in CFF. Everything works well, far better than in neighbouring countries. I also seldom feel nauseous when the train shakes a bit, but the geography of the country is such that there cannot be a tgv or a freccia rossa, if speed is the criteria here. Sometimes you should test the TER traveling from Geneva to Lyon, or also a tgv on that same line (see tgv high prices too!). No train can go fast in such mountains and river geography. But you will admire the beautiful scenery along river Rhône. Thank you for your videos which I always follow with interest and curiosity, as I love trains.
Zurich - Bern and back normal price is 100.- CHF. Ridiculous high even for swiss people.
But none of the ticket machines have braille or voice guides... whereas in Japan those are standards for more than 25 years.... again the failing top and not a failure by workers.
@@harman6719most Swiss travellers use a half tax card. Making 2nd class 51CHF and 1st class 90CHF return (Zurich to Bern). It is expensive if you travel regularly. But then a travel card can be bought monthly or annually for specific travel zones. Another option is to buy a monthly or annual GA if you travel on different routes regularly giving you access to most of the rail network for a fixed price.
The train project itself was a fail, but the customer doesn't really notice that, because technical deteis are usually not marketed in a big way. As a Swiss, I never really felt bad in the new or old trains. The price is enormous but comes mainly because of the surcharge of the first class.
I just looked on the official site and the cheapest price for the same route is 35.20 CHF.
But i could not understand as to why did this train fail. What is wrong in it. Is the ride quality bad. Is it with a lot of body roll... why?
The train was designed to tilt to allow greater speeds in curves. the problem is that this tilting technology is so bad that the ride is unbearable. thats why this feature is turned off, but still the ride is extremely bumpy especially over swiches or with high speeds. the other problem is that they used to break down a lot.
I take the train all the time from my village to Geneva Airport where I work, it's an hour stress-free commute each way and honestly I never pay attention to the type or model of those trains so I never feel the difference. At the end of the day, you can't really pick and choose which train model you should take or not if you have to be somewhere at a specific time and that's the train you need to take to get to your destination on time.
Basic summary
Con's
1) 1st and 2nd class seats are both essentially the same and both are pretty ordinary
2) Train is pricey, but so is everything in Switzerland (160 USD for 1st class ticket)
3) When the train reaches its maximum 200 kmph speed it's a little bit bumpy, but this is only for part of the route
4) Strange wifi that requires an app and local sim card
Pro's
1) Great views of the swiss landscape from the top deck
2) Cool children's play area
3) Cool onboard restaurant with a wide variety of pricey but delicious food
4) Nice on board toilet
agree, except of the 2nd point in your cons. The train is definitely not pricy. Just use a 50% subscription
Thats a big lie dont avoid them
I've been watching your videos on and off for a while but the trend of you doing clickbait thumbnails and titles about "bad trains" is just tiring. I'm not asking you to be glowing with praise for every single trip you take but it's just exhausting to see yet another "This is [country]'s WORST TRAIN!!!!!!!" title or thumbnail.
Plenty of more variety coming up! 😁
As a Swiss I'm shocked that you had to pay 30 CHF for a sandwich and that little Panna Cotta with some beer.
You could have bought a sandwich/beer and Panna Cotta at Geneva station for much much less and eaten in the train.
That's what most train travelers do. You definitely paid too much for it.
Had a little sandwich thing too. :)
Another great video! I'm glad I found your channel :)
Even though i prefer the ICN and the old IC2000 over the Twindexx, has it kinda grown on me, apart from the harsh lighting (at night) is it still a really quiet and comfortable train. The extreme shaking was pretty funny at the beginning and I even joked about it with a conductor who then said to me " it even just got a new suspension fresh from the depot". Its sad that the Tilting technology didn't work out but fingercrossed maybe well get a real high speed line now hahah.
Having both a tilting pendular design and a double deck was definitely a low end challenge and ended up uncontrollable and suspension was hardened so that an upgrade of the tilt controls will have to be re-engineered again. but one big benefit remains, although expensive to do, the two boggie axles are not staying exactly parallel with each other in the curves in order to remain perfectly perpendicular to the track itself via a linkage activated by the angle boggie-wagon driven by the curve. This is reducing the noise and the overall rolling resistance by a theoretical 13 percent average and the global rail wear by 50% at the cost of higher boggie maintenance cost of 3 % as I recall it is economical . So there is a risk and a reward in every progress. At the end to compensate the introduction delay, the CFF negotiated and got 3 extra trains and meanwhile were not really short of train capacity so quite a good deal for the CFF and a loss for Bombardier who performed poorly there…finally note that for a Geneva Zurich a day pass may end up cheaper.
Hm... I failed to understand what was so "failed" in capitol letters. Food was good, scenic view very good, punctual, clean, all working. Bumpy... ok, could be better. But if you write do not ride this, than may I ask, what is the alternative train Genf - Zürich?
Plenty of choice, but best is the ICN tilting train that also runs every hour. :)
@@SuperalbsTravels Wow, thank you! I will take a note of it.
As for the failed bit, it's because of how one of its key features was abandoned.
I just hate how 1. Class is getting worse and worse with every new train generation. The old EW4 Intercity waggons had amazingly soft 1st class seats that you could recline a lot.
Even worse when you travel on regional trains like Zurichs S-Bahn network, 1st class only means you possibly have a higher chance to stretch your legs due to the compartment not being full, and maybe a little less noise due to less chances of kids in the area. All the rest is exactly the same crap as in 2. Class.
One thing about the Wifi: There is no Wifi on (most) Swiss Trains. The reason for that is that the Cell coverage is so good in Switzerland that it is pointless to have wifi. The App you mentioned is a collaboration between SBB and the Swiss Mobile Providers to not count the data you consume onboard a train towards you data limit.
That's a poor excuse. Plenty of countries have flawless cell signal coverage on train routes but not everyone should be expected to have a SIM card registered in the local network.
From a passenger point of view, the train is very good. The problem is the wifi, as mentioned in the video. Also, the 1st class isn't much better than the 2nd class and I'd say it isn't worth the extra money, unless you want to make sure you will have enough seats during the rush hour (since 1st class is usually quite empty).
SBB have made a conscious decision to emphasise signal amplifiers (4G / 5G) over wifi, since market penetration of mobile devices is good, and coverage leaves little to be desired. Neither does speed. It is annyoing for tourists, though.
I take this route quite often, though usually just parts of it - Genève-Lausanne or Lausanne-Bern.
The double deckers are great when travelling with a young child and a pram. Some of the older carriages are a bit of a headache in those cases, unless you are two adults coming along.
Title and thumbnail are really misleading. This train might be not that good for swiss standards, but certainly not failed, since all problems have been worked out. Just compare it to the DB for example.
Things to point out:
- the space above the seats is for hats, not luggage
- the power sockets are most likely for phone chargers, since most chargers i know have this form
- for swiss and train prices, the meal is not that expensive
- why you mad about the ticket price in first class, a short notice ice ticket in germany would cost the same
- i personally think the smootness of the ride is not worse than on any other train in switzerland, but anyone feels different on that
Swiss railways offer so many advantages, like frequency, punctuality, well organised stations, decent cleanlyness and comfort, good signposting. And taking into account the difficult mountain terrain, also an extensive network, also with a good choice of international connections.
But one thing is missing : high speeds. Except for a stretch north of Bern running up to 200 km/h, and shorter 160 km/h areas here and there, plenty of tracks are running at 60-140 km/h. Because of the other qualities of the network and the relatively small size of the country, they can be forgiven. But I still hope that future investments will increase mean speeds, certainly in the ‘flatter’ parts of the country.
The reason behind the slower speed is with that SBB can maintain the schedule. I mean in Switzerland its not all about the speed, it’s more about the connections if you wanna go from point A to point B.
Honestly I feel the word „failed“ is a bit hard.. but I totally agree that the ride is way too bumpy and this should def. be fixed.
Great video and thanks for taking us along the ride! 😊
They failed in that their roll compensation tech was supposed to shorten the ride time between Lausanne and Bern plus St. Gallen and Zürich to under 1h so that Lausanne and St. Gallen could become full syncrhonised timetable junctions. That won't be possible now. And this was the biggest purchase in the history of SBB. Instead of an improvement, we now have a ton of these rather questionable trains. Thanks Bombardier.. you bombed this one. Hard.
Thanks! I think they failed at what they were meant to do...
Can't help thinking that a dodgy Swiss train is probably rather better than the best the UK can offer!!! Track quality can play a major role in how comfortable the ride is - if you don't have good track, then you are never going to get a really good ride, no matter how good your train is. I think this is one of the reasons that French trains rides are normally comfortable. Incidentally, when I went to Switzerland ( a long while ago!), there were around 2.5 Swiss Francs to the Pound - now they are apparently almost at parity! Ouch!
This is Very interesting and Very beautifull experience to me. Thankyou for introducing this good presentation ❤️👍
I love your ranting videos so much, plus the comments on this one are very entertaining 🤭🍿
It's more like "Lowsun", not "Lewsaw" (Lausanne). But overall I'm very impressed by your spelling of foreign places, no matter which country they're in. Greetings from Switzerland. :)
I love how you correctly named Bern the "acting capital" since we technically do not have a capital but only a seat of government!
I've been told off for getting it wrong in the past! 😂😂😂😂
In the late 50s, I'm sure we were taught that Berne was the capital of Switzerland.
9:37 "Barbarian Invasion" came to mind as I heard: "Desert with beer" ... In France the offender would probably get arrested upon arrival.
Nice review thanks 👌
Now the train is even more reliable than the average of the SBB trains.
I prefer this train to all other new ones because one feels not so squeeced in.
The only problem is the shaking when the train changes for another rail.
Not as reliable as you may experience it. We boarded in Chur, departure time passed. After 10 minutes, …folks! Sorry, this thing won't work, use the IR next platform over. I was not too unhappy, the SOB unit offers the smoother ride, the interior is friendlier. Besides, going to Bern you need not change in Zurich which, for old folks and a roller bag each is a challenge, too little time for those who are unfamiliar with Zurich HB layout. So, one storied units for us and a little more travelling time perhaps.
Nice video!
We were in Switzerland a few weeks ago. The trains were amazing compared to Hungary (my home country)!
Hello fellow Hungarian
Haha, they're certainly different, especially as far as frequency goes! :)
Szia! The new MÁV cars are much better than the old ones. Az új magyar IC-vonatok sokkal jobbak mint az előttiek. I've travelled a lot through Hungary by train and I don't have much to complain about. Megújul Magyarország 😃
@@majy1735 yep, they are. You are brave, because you started to learn Hungarian. We all know that Hungarian is not the easiest (Hungarian is my mother tounge and it’s hard for me and us as well), but you can learn it in a few years and speak it well enough.
igen, azok. Bátor vagy, mert elkezdtél magyarul tanulni. Mindannyian tudjuk, hogy a magyar nem a legkönnyebb (a magyar az anyanyelvem, és nehéz nekem is, és nekünk is), de néhány év alatt megtanulhatod, és jól fogod beszélni. (Ezt a Google fordító fordította (a magyar verzió, mert lusta vagyok))
I never had problems with the trains, in case of sickness. and they really improved since first appearance.
Great job on this awesome video
Switzerland's worst train beats America's best train by a wide margin!
What utter BS click-bait title. I'm a frequent train traveller from Switzerland and can confirm it's one of the best trains to ride on and surely not failed. That's just rubbish the mass media has been writing about for years now by people who are not actually travelling by trains.
Loads of comments seem to disagree with your claim it's the best! 🤷♂️
@@SuperalbsTravels Where are these "loads" of comments?
Most are pointing out that you're a misinformed clown using clickbait to spread misinformation.
It's your most disliked video.
Views are coming in, slowly, but the SEO analytics are just bad compared to some others you've done.
Admit you fucked up and move on.
If this is the worst train in Switzerland, no wonder they have the best trains in Europe
I took that route and maybe even that train a couple of weeks ago. The Swiss rail system is so nice, and got me all over the country. My only complaint is that there is not a lot of space for luggage on most cars. The SBB app is great because it lets you look up where you want to go, provides departure times and platform numbers (which is super handy).
I‘d say that high price is mainly due to you picking first class
Taking second class already halfes your price and personaly i don’t mind taking second class
+ as you said most of us swiss already have a ticket that halfs the prices
Or have a general abonement that lets you travel for „free“
But id say most of your other points are quite fair though
Thanks for watching! :)
semi-high speed not high
By now most problems are fixed. I take this train daily.
26-track station?! That's twice as many as Hamburg's main station for around half the population. Way to go, Switzerland!
I like your videos, and I get used to the mostly negative titles which are most of the time exaggerated. Overall the Swiss railways made a bad deal with Bombardier. They should gave chosen Stadler Rail. Compared to the old first class seats of 40 years ago, these new seats are indeed not comfortable. The very best on Swiss Rail us the good reliable service and punctuality.
We read lots of the "shaking trains" in the news here, altough i have to say i never really experienced that kind of bad quality/problems.
Oh, you are lucky then haha. :)
With the general high quality of the track works in Switzerland I am surprised that money would be spent on the vehicles rather then the track. The track condition influencing ride conditions on all traffic using it.
comparing to other trains surrounding Switzerland or even in a similar country to Switzerland(SG), I'm happy I've always got a seat and the trains are always on time
Just came back from a 1st class Germany-Switzerland (home country) trip, and where I didn't see "much difference" on my way up (noisy crammed ICE) , but I did notice quite a quality loss when switching back to swiss trains today, especially in seating and train-wobbling. I haven't had the "chance" of traveling using these new trains, but now I'm glad I can put a name on them.
Also, on prices, even I as a swiss citizen, am astounded how expensive the whole thing was (ok I do use half fare which makes things much more even), but that food price was definitely costing an arm and a leg for such a small quantity. I already miss germany and its cheaper prices overall haha.
Great video :)
It's certainly anything but cheap! The German trains, even when in Switzerland, have better value food and drink. :)
I guess the quality loss is self-explanatory as 99% of Swiss trains do have more of a regional rail character while the ICE is a full fledged high speed rail service (which you don't really have in Switzerland). If you compare the regional rail services alone, Switzerland wins by a landslide. Single ride tickets are indeed very expensive (which is one of the few downsides of the Swiss railway system) and it's normally much smarter to buy some food at a station's Coop/Migros and take it on the train.
Send them to the US, please. We'll take the worst trains ;)
Hahaha, even the worst here is better than US rail. ☹️
I have travelled on these trains and others in Switzerland as a tourist numerous times. I didn't find any problem with the ride on the double-decker trains and the worst I have had was one journey to GVA when the air-conditioning had failed and the carriage was like an oven.
Also, the prices are high if you just book on the day or shortly before travelling but if you are going to Switzerland for a week or two then there is a half-fare card which is valid for 1 month (though there is an annual half-fare card with more hoops to jump through) that is very useful and advance purchase of tickets is also a good idea, especially if you can commit to one specific time and route.
Hello, i'm from Switzerland,and i'm happy that a US speaks about switzerland
and, fun fact, in the video we can see my house(Lausanne)
IC4 VS Disaster high speed train in switzerland VS Øresundståg. What train would you choose?
IC4 ❤
Øresundståg, they're great! :)
Øresundståg clearly is my Favorite swedish trains
The 50% reduction is highly recommended. It costs around 180CHF for the first year and 160 for following years iirc, so it pays for itself rather quickly. It works for almost all public transport, with some private funiculars up mountains being the few exceptions
I am old enough, and travelled enough, to remember that British Rail provided white tablecloths and flowers in many of their restaurant cars - alas now longer in service.
I drive every day with this train. Love it, cause there aren’t so much people’s in there…
it's not a high speed train. what a fail review... 😂
Oh cry about it, let the guy actually review the train, and he does a great job In doing so
I do send you loads of love because you seem to be pretty in need of. 😘
12:37 For this, you need to buy a half fare pass for approximatevly 100 CHF a year. It’s really good value if you travel a lot.
180 right now. 160 if you're renewing.
@@jorgestravelsAh really? This year I paid around 90 to renew it…
@@KXY5 How old are you? remember under 25 pay less.
@@jorgestravels Yes your are right, I forgot about it.
Luckily whenever I visit, I use a rail pass of sorts. 😁
I live in Switzerland since 2018, been travelling with IR13 from St. Gallen to Altstätten on a daily basis (work) and I have to say I was very happy with it. :)
Too negative … Yes it’s bit shaky but Sbb is working on it. Overall seats are comfortable and inside it remains quiet …
I think the seats are okay, but nothing more, which is disappointing for First Class.
Don't understand why many European First Class seats have no big difference from 2nd Class - yes it's 1+2 configuration but the seats aren't obviously larger than those of 2nd class, so what you get for paying extra is just a unnecessarily wide corridor 😅
Mostly you're paying for a carriage that's usually less full
It's not a great difference on these trains. Sometimes it can be a lot nicer!
Thank you brother for providing such high quality content for free of cost 🙏
😀
My pleasure, glad you enjoyed it! :)
Not travelled on that rolling stock so can't really comment - but I've done the route innumerable times from my Swiss working days. I prefer it in the opposite direction: there is a spectacular view when you exit a tunnel above Montreux - on a clear day you can see all the way along Lac Leman to the fountain on the Geneva waterfront. It's stunning. Then comes the meandering drop through vineyards into Lausanne and along the lakeshore to Geneva. I did it every Monday morning, taking about three to three-and-half hours from Zurich airport to get me to my desk in time for lunch, for about a year and a half. Great start to the week, with a good book and an iPod for entertainment (plus the views of course)!
Thanks for watching! :) Sounds great!
I took it many times already, and I find them as good as other new SBB trains. And in April 2021, I crossed the Gotthard Base Tunnel in a Twindexx Swiss Express train from Lugano to Zurich.
It's a nice train to drive (Bomerdier improved enormously its reliability by... disconnecting the Wako joke), I generally feel no vibrations when driving it, and the power delivery and braking actions are smooth (the last 20-10m before full stop take some time to smooth out) but the experience back there is less stellar for the passengers, comfort wise. As usual, CFF over promised.
I have travelled twice on Twindexx sets, once between Bern and Interlaken,, the other one between Bern and Basel, and both were quite bumpy rides.
Anyway I am soon off to Switzerland, but I will be travelling to Zürich on the IC5 service, which runs via Biel and Solothurn.
Oh good, I think that is the tilting ICN units right? :)
@SuperalbsTravels , where did you come across the information, that Switzerland doesn't have a capital city (at time mark 9:52 , or a "acting capital city" at 3:52)?
Among all the railway related channels on youtube, I consider this channel among top 50 after careful & objectively reviewing the content. Good job!!!
Hooray, thank you! What are the other 49?
Your description fully meets reality. It is well documented and complete. This train is lackluster. But is it to the point that we should AVOID it? Anyway, I am not sure there is an alternative, better carriages between Geneva and Zurich depending on your time of departure. Is this Bombardier train the one dubbed "IC"? Btw Why the hell did SBB opt for poorly reputed Bombardier when the local train builder Stadler makes the best trains?
"IC" just means InterCity and can be any of a number of train compositions, in the past they had to have a certain amount of AC-cars, but nowadays all are with AC anyways. As the name suggest, they only stop at the big cities/railway junctions. There used to be the "ICN" moniker for the tilting trains (RABDe500), but now they are just branded IC. Then there's "IR", InterRegio which were the same as express-trains, but with full AC cars. Again void as everything has AC now. IR trains stop more regularly than IC trains.
As an example, if you take the IC between Zürich and Basel, the train stops nowhere. If you take the IR on the same route it has 4 stops.
Because European agreements oblige large companies to put their procurements out to tender in detail and then take the supplier that best meets the required Profil - regardless of the country.
@@TherconJair Thank you. I get it now.
@@VolksmusikmitPfiff Vielen Dank!
@@VolksmusikmitPfiff are you sure Switzerland is obliged by this,?, as it has never been a member of the EU...
I live in Switzerland and generally adore the SBB, but I shudder whenever I see one of these wobbly things arriving. For context: from what I remember, these trains (usually referred to as FV- Dosto, which is short for Fernverkehr-Doppelstock = long distance double decker train) were intended as a replacement for the older IC2000 trains and acquired through a public tender from Bombardier for "improved tax payer value". Most other models are/were made by Stadler Rail and are of much higher quality. I sincerely hope the SBB have learned from their mistakes and will buy better trains in the future. Meanwhile, Swiss travellers will have to contend with these sea sickness inducing abominations, I'm afraid. :(
I really don't like the KISS trains, especially in comparison to the FV-Dosto and the IC2000. Imo it is really easy to notice the "bumpyness" of a regional train with fast acceleration and fast breaks. And I find the seats in the KISS the most unconfortable of all trains.
Maybe it's because I don't notice the wobbeling of the Dosto's, but that's probably because I'm used to the ICN leaning in every curve
Do you run the other way when the wobbly monster is coming at you?
@@fixyfoxy2661 the seats aren't manufactured by the trai company, neither stadler nor bombardier, if the stadler seems more hard it's because SBB has configured them as local trains with more density
These trains are amazing travelled on SBB many times awesome trains try travelling similar distance in Wales UK Cardiff to Manchester 3 hours journey on a 2 carrage train with no buffet recently travelled on the line had to stand the 3 hours about 300 people on the 2 carrages
The worst train in Switzerland is the best train in Spain, thanks Renfe😍
I took this trip couple of months ago,and it was not as bad as hyped. I rode the lower deck of 1st class and I enjoyed it because of the lack of other people. There was only one other passenger during a short moment for the 2h30 duration of my trip. It's not the best, but way better than UK trains
stay on the lower deck and you will not get sick like upstairs.
Again a nice video, but please stop with the stupid clickbait titles, what's "FAILED" about this train? A video about Thalys a while ago was a "NIGHTMARE" journey, that wasn't the case as well. I don't understand that you have to use such stupid titles to these otherwise great videos...
I thought the Thalys was a truly awful journey, and this train has clearly failed as one of its main features was a total disaster. 🤷♂️
Bro nah. I live in Switzerland, but when I was on this train it's just like all the other train.
I'm Swiss and had to pause for a moment, when you said that my country doesn't have a capital city. But Google proved you right!
Wow
Haha. Glad to be of assistance! 😂
Sensationalist, clickbait, bullshit title.
I commute with these and the IC2000 to work every day.
99.9% of the problems have been resolved by now except for WAKO which is being removed entirely.
But yet look at plenty of comments who disagree with you. Not everyone has to like it, just because you do. 😉
@@SuperalbsTravels Are we reading the same comment section? People are calling you out for the clickbait.
@ylILin I have all the comments presented in my app, and lots of people are agreeing that the trains are terrible. 🤷♂️