You could remote link the controls for the outboard to the main controls for the boat, giving you the option to still pilot from the boat (or if you wanted extreme speed run them all at the same time!). If your hanging a wire over side for power adding a control line should be easy.
@@TheDigitalMermaid and your using microcontrollers, you could make it wifi, and do it from your phone also :) or just make the controls wireless, do like wires though. Maybe there is a usecase to control it from the dock?
@@patrickdk77 I have (longer term) plans to make the main boat's helm remote controllable. Not sure I'd want to do that for the dinghy though... I can't imagine I'd ever be able to get the tiller under remote control.
Great plans for the battery's. Are you not concerned that servicing a battery issue in the future wil be difficult? But I understand That having multiple removable units will add enormous complexity. Great homemade modules BTW!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Maddi. Let me throw some ideas for the battery box. Put aprox 50mm holes in the back of the box, to be able to push a battery row out from the back to front in any case it is needed. To slide the cells in, make a step at the front to lay down and fix a bord from where you can slide the battery row in. Slide, maybe there is some PTFE Foil outside to put under for better sliding. Pull the PTFE out after the blocks are in. That are my 2 Cents here. Cheers Marc
I used to buy Fujitsu servers, and they'd come with straps around the servers to make it easier to pull them out of the box. I had planned to do something similar around the raw cells. Your idea would work, but I'd like to control where air enters into the box better so I can get a chimney draft going when the cells are charging/discharging for convection cooling.
@@TheDigitalMermaid Hi Maddi, yes I know this straps from 15 years ago. Didn`t had them in mind. With them you don`t need any access from behind. Cheers Marc
PTFE is pretty expensive, 5 thou sheet would be like $500 to cover the whole area. The low friction idea is great though. Plastic World sells UHMW, you could get a 1/8" sheet cut into thin strips and place 2 under each cell row. Looks like $60 for 48x 1/2" wide strips.
@@electrowizard2000 Or, what about thin Epoxy plates? My only thought was during the time sliding the batteries in it would be good to have not so much friction resistance. But after they are in, it should be removed.
Hi I think keeping the planning and build posts separate is a good idea, as it allows time for us the viewers to answer a question you may ask or make a suggestion before the work is completed. A couple of other thoughts: E-Bike twist throttle for the "Amp-board" (Water resistance). Maybe an older motor (Without reverse) and investigate the possibility of direct drive (With a right angle gear at the foot) Loving the content !!!
I concur with separating planing and building. About the gearshifting, she just needs to jam it in either direction and use the controller for direction.
I've been trying to find what the prop RPM was initially, and so far it looks like the old engine was 5300rpm max with a reduction ration of 1.85, so the prop max speed would be about 2800. The 5kw motor's max RPM is 3500, so I'll need to run through a 1.25:1 reduction to avoid cavitation. So direct drive isn't likely going to work. As for the twist throttle, I've got an idea on that. I think I can put pot inside the housing where the current twist mechanism goes. I want to keep it looking stock if I can. I'll just need to find a want to have it self-center when released.
@@frejaresund3770 That's kind of the idea. There's a high-low switch, so I might have "forward" be high speed and "reverse" be lot speed, and have the same "joystick mode" that I'm using on the helm of the main boat. Twist the throttle to center for neutral, one way for forward, the other for reverse.
The answer to your either/or question is ... yes 😁 But seriously, everyone is happy with what makes you happy. It's crazy that you are working on such a big project _and_ invest energy into making videos too 🙂
I get a lot of wonderful feedback that helps me make this project better. So as much as I'd do it just because folks seem to enjoy them, there's very real benefits to the project that would make the videos worth it regardless. :)
I appreciate your videos about your thought process and planning. Thank you for sharing. I do enjoy watching someone with even worse OCD than myself AND cats.... Squirrel!!! :)
This all sounds like a very solid and thought out plan for the battery boxes. The only side note I have is to maybe consider sandwich fiberglass (preferably foam core or even wood) as the material. It's immune to rot, light, and just stupid strong for it's size and weight. It can also be basically any shape. Even with no experience making these, it's really not hard (harder for more complex shapes, trivial for just boards). Then again, I also understand drawing the line somewhere. There surely is enough new stuff being learned already, picking your battles so to speak.
Great to see so many sub-projects underway and the progress. As an alternative to the proto boards for all key circuits, given the low cost and quick turnaround of PCB manufactures these days, might be easier and quicker. Of course if you are proficient in soldering and enjoy that vs. computer work the proto boards are the best solution for you. Good luck and looking forward to the days back in the water. Best regards.
I fully plan to make PCBs, but I don't have the skills yet. So the protoboards are both helping me get better at soldering, but also filling the gap as I learn. :)
I use pocket holes fairly often, they're wonderful. In this case though, the "meat" that the anchor needs to bite into are the 16mm bottom and mid plates, so the screws/bolts need to come in from the outside.
Very cool project! When I built mine I removed the water pump because of a lot of resistance to turn the shaft it might be better to use a electric water pump
Aye, I started thinking after recording that the pump might have been connected to the engine. Either way, there's a place to pick up water cleanly, so even with an electric pump it should be fine.
Looking at the CAD design for your battery support box, I am having trouble visualizing where the cables are going to run and how you will connect between sets of cells. This was a great informative video! I am amazed at your hard work and perseverance!
Each pack is fully self contained, so there's no cross-pack connections. Each pack will have a pair of 4awg cables going out to anderson connectors. Those will have corresponding leads going to an external bus bar. What's missing in the 3D model is the face plate, which will have the BMS power button, disconnect switch and breaker. That face panel will be easily removable for servicing the BMS, accessing the internal fuses, etc. Thanks for the kind words! ^_^
LMMFAO @ Engine cowling on head, then again at "A nice water feature", Dork. Love it! Now battery box, you are talking about a LOT of weight, and your talking about controlling this weight with wood. May I suggest steel? Maybe you can't weld, but your smart AF, so you could learn, believe me. Steel would handle a lot more weight with a lot less material. Yes I am a steel guy. but I believe for a reason
If I was going to use metal, it's be aluminium. I have wood working skills, but I don't have metal working skills. White oak is really strong, and I kinda like the idea of a big arsed block of power in a pretty wooden box. I'm sure I could learn to weld, but I don't have the equipment, or the time right now.
some thoughts: Engine of an outboard rotate in 1 direction only. For forward, Reverse. and yes Neutral too. Because the shaft drives the waterpump (impellor in little white/yellow plastic box on lower end where shaft comes out upwards:) . It means the actual mechanical shifting can only be done in the gearbox. (in the lower end behind the prop with a push/pull rod to a more handy place) You can turn an electric motor, thus shaft in any direction, reversing rotation of the shaft would cause the waterpump to malfunction: It would be much easier to limit control to forward and leave mecanics in place. But with the wish to keep controls on main and outboard the same with motor reverse possibility, this requires some thinking about changing shaft, mechanicals of gears (welding it fixed) and different waterpump setup, Electrical or mechanical.
OK, this was super helpful! So it means that I'm going to not be able to copy the throttle logic I use in the main boat, as the forward/reverse must stay the same motor turning direction, and I can only switch using the lever that changes the gear box on the lower end? If I decided to switch to an electric pump, would I be able to "lock" the prop to the driving shaft and reverse the electric motor to reverse direction? If I have to change the mechanical, I won't. I want the helm control software and hardware to be open source, so maybe I can add both methods of driving and have a toggle switch or jumper on the board to select "drive mode".
@@TheDigitalMermaid "lock" the prop: yes: weld the pushrod lever in gearbox in forward position, or disassemble and put a piece of pipe over the horizontal shaft so the lever is fixed in 1 position. (watch this video to know what i mean:) Its very clear about the workings of shifter th-cam.com/video/9ib2OkytCBs/w-d-xo.htmlsi=v5Gw8tF2U5h5jz8k But. Always a but..grrrr. You will lose the neutral. iow the immediate stopping of propulsion. When docking: bit power, neutral, bit, much reverse, neutral etc. If the electric motor has no run out and still can stop immediate, your ok. Otherwise some more thoughts/ideas might be in order. For main boat electric engine this will be also the case. Electric pump: The impeller pump is run by the speed of the shaft so amount water increases when speed increases. An electric pump will have to be controlled how fast it must run. (there goes brain waves into and another STM again:))) Pros: all electrical control, Cons: an extra addition, It will take up space in a not electrical friendly environment. I have no idea how much water of certain temp/cooling effect is needed for the electrical motor: must be calculated? I (wildly) guess that he impeller for a combustion engine will be good enough for electric motor, is that true? And separate electrical waterpumps are relative big powerconsumers which is not ideal either. For either options some machining has to be done. Electric: water pickup, and for impeller run a hose to a new location. Some loose thoughts. What about some sense and control wires through the plug, as with cars the maincontrol knows were it is put in and what to deliver or functions to shut off. On the software side, this could be a build in one build: run in option 1 for main boat/battery or option B for dinghy. I guess the other prop, displacement, use, etc of a dinghy will require some other power/force settings anyway. So a one to one copy might not be ideal anyway. Every helm outboard can be converted to control it (steering, gas and shifting) at greater distance with morse cables. Not fancy but it is really 90ties:)) But these could be replaced with an clean DC 48V linear actuator for the shifter. In all it seems that 99% of outboard use will be as boat to shore/exploring dinghy. The option as side tied backup is nice but secondary. My thought/choice would be to keep it as simple and on the way serviceable as possible. Which is: electric outboard motor is electrically restricted to forward only, keep shifting at the helm and cooling with impeller for a start and build from there if needed. The winter is over before you know it and didn't you have 'some' other projects.....:))
@@LucScheffers Okay, that video makes it really clear, thank you! Losing neutral is something to think about... As I mentioned in the video, I've got no existing experience with outboards, so for me learning to live without neutral isn't a concern. However, I could see it throwing friends off who try to use it. I'll need to think on this. As for the pump; I already planned in the main boat to have the pump come on based on temperature, so that code will exist anyway. From a power consumption; Nothing comes for free... if the mechanical pump is driven, that takes power from the prop. So I think from a battery range question, it's more or less a wash. Though electric might be more efficient, if only because it doesn't turn on at all until actually needed. I think ya, for the very rare time I need to use this to tow the boat, I'll just do it from the dinghy. I can always create remote controls some time down the road if I find myself wanting for a project.
@@TheDigitalMermaid It all depends how fast the prop (thus propulsion) stops after electric engine stop. I lack the knowledge here. But as a rule: The more mass*speed you have the more of an issue it a slow stopping prop can be in small spaces like docking. A dinghy is light and rubbery so i for see less problems there.
My suggestion is to throw a pod motor on the bottom of the leg. I've built them both ways. Pods are more efficient, easier and way quieter. Stick the controller in the under the cowling.
Aye, it would be great to get rid of all gearing. It's got a few drawbacks in my case though, mainly that I've yet to find an option that is hackable. It would also likely cost more than I can really justify right now.
9.9's were 10hp engines, rated as such as most jurisdictions don't require boat registration for under 10hp. I know that OMC (Johnson/Evinrude) outboards the 9.9 and 15 hp engines shared a lot in common, and you could shove a 15hp engine under a 9.9hp cover. (don't ask how I know) Apparently you could also make some modifications to a 9.9hp engine to convert it onto a 15hp one, but don't remember all that was involved to do it.
@@TheDigitalMermaid many 9.9 HP's (yamaha's/ Envirudes for sure) have the same prop, lower en and gears, shaft and 2 cylinder powerhead and ignition as a 15HP, but with a different (smaller high speed needle set) carburator. Cause manufacturers know this they would make price of 15hp carburators extreme expensive. Next to to that the 5 hp extra is using 1/3 more fuel even at stationary speeds. not always a thing you want or need.
As for you video's question. Like you said. Now the are updates of much incredible work done "behind the scenes". With easy you could cut this video in 3 shorter one's. With some extra footage of you measuring, twisting wires, go and pick up a blown engine. This could boost frequency which is liked by YT and us too':))) But....Remember that the one and only and yes biggest interest factor is you:) So doing what feels good for you is always the best to keep on going!
I also do not recommend using solid wood panels, as they are prone to warping with changes in humidity. Marine plywood or bakelite plywood(Phenolic Plywood) would be a much better choice.
@@MaxPivovarov White oak is particularly stable and often used in wood working, and it's stronger that marine plywood. That's why I plan to use it. I can control potential warp by selecting rift sawn stock, to
If you're going to use water cooling, you'll have to use the original reverse gear for changing the direction of motion, as the original cooling pump cannot operate when rotating in reverse.
Ah, that's good to know! I might end up putting a small electric pump in the head and have a temp switch turn it on only when needed. Knowing that the pump is linked to the gearing makes me lean more that way. Thanks kindly for that info!
@@TheDigitalMermaid An important addition: since the reverse gearbox uses spiral bevel gears, using the same gear in both directions has limitations. Therefore, always use the forward gear as the primary one (it can work for reverse, but less efficiently). However, the reverse gear should not be used as the primary one. Therefore, the rotation direction of the electric motor must match the rotation of the gasoline engine when moving forward.
@@MaxPivovarov I suspect that I don't use reverse often, and not for long. So if I lose cooling in reverse, it _shouldn't_ be too big of a deal. I'll test of course though.
Motor always turns the same way. Gearbox is down the bottom (controlled by the rod) and the water pump runs only 1 way on the main shaft. Simplifies motor control as you don't need to reverse it.
Regarding electric water pumps. Catamaran Impi 10+yrs ago gave up on engine driven pump w impellor for diesel generator and went with a single speed 12v magnetic drive electric pump (no shaft or seals to leak) and was happy with it. Single speed was fine as its volume was matched for the fixed 1800rpm generator and its exhaust. Fixed speed magnetic drive water pump might work for you as well since you are not dealing with exhaust, however they do make variable speed versions that, when sized properly, might provide more cooling at high rpms. Assume you can get 48v dc versions as well . Not sure if these are self-priming so may need to be below waterline.
I plan to have 12v available (for lights), so running a 12v pump would be fine, too. Which pump did you go with, specifically? I've been struggling to find a decent quality, continuous operating 12vDC pump. I'd prefer variable speed, but I can add a controller to turn a single speed on/off as needed with a temp sensor.
@@TheDigitalMermaidI am a viewer of Catamaran Impi's videos, not the owner. I went to YTube "Catamaran Impi" and 7 yrs ago there is an episode "No impellor, no raw water pump- marine generator" At around the 10.5 min mark, owner brings up pump specs. My 7 yr memory was faulty about 12v, he used a 120/220v ac pump since he was using it on a generator that would supply 220. Pump was LC-3cp-md magdrive pump rated .5hp, 8gpm, max head 19ft. I did research 7 yrs ago for 12v versions and did find some on ebay, quality unknown, many used for fish ponds and the like. There were fixed and variable speed versions. Does the above pump come in dc motor version? Could the above pump be run by a 12v or 48v dc motor? You would have to see how things are attached
@@douglasrobbie9998 I found it, "LC-3CP-MD Seal-Less Magnetic Drive Pump", thank you! Unfortunately, it's $680 cad!!! That's a touch outside my budget :)
@@TheDigitalMermaid Centennial Equipment (online) has the PL-809 versions (12 or 24V) for US $307 (about $440 Can?) has 5-6 g/min and Polycarbonate Sulftone (PL designation) wet head that would be good for saltwater. There are probably Asian knockoff for less.
i appreciate all the effort you go to with all the detail you explain, but it gets a little much late in the evening when i find time to watch, i do tend to jump forward, now here's a simple approach (and cost effective i will add) access the boat, what do you need, ie what do you need to accommodate, what parts do you like and don't like, rip it all out, start with fresh canvas, resurface the entire back end inside, so new and fresh you could eat off it, but do let the paint dry first, do a nice white epoxy finish, then again reaccess, and simply mock stuff up in card board, yep you done some before just a thought
Gutting and rebuilding the aft end of the boat would be a pretty darn big job. Of course, the end results would be better, but I want to get on the water as soon as I can. I _think_ this box will work, and if it does, I'll be that much closer to getting in the water. :)
@@TheDigitalMermaid sorry, yes finish and esthetics are quite high on my agenda, i have watched a few people, such as 'Sailing Magic Carpet' Aladino has done a superb job on remodeling, his finish is just incredible. spotless, you could eat your dinner out of the bilge
Hrm, I'll see how this one does. I was out getting the wood for the prototype box, and I thought "maybe I can do these videos for patreons" and make the build videos the public ones. I need to think more on it.
I figured one of them was for the water. I'll use water cooling, so I'll still need to suck the water up. What I still really need to figure out is how the forward/reverse works. I'm sure it'll make sense once I start digging into it, but clearly there's some sort of linkage that goes to the lower end.
You will and it is. I assume it has an impeller pump that only works in one way, so jam the gear in forward since thats the majority direction. If you dump the "coolant" under the water I think the impeller will work both ways.
I do not recommend using a single box for all the batteries, as it could lead to significant issues if you need to replace one of the cells. I would suggest placing each section in its own separate box.
I considered that, but it won't fit. As it is, I'm up against the limits of the space I have to work with. Even if they were separate though, they'd be too heavy to move and I'd need to disassemble the packs on top to access the ones below. That said, I've got the assembly setup so that I can access the top three packs fairly easily, and I can access the lower ones by disassembling the top ones and removing the mid-level tray.
@@TheDigitalMermaid You could use aluminum boxes for each battery section. This would improve fire safety, enhance heat dissipation, make them lighter, and most importantly, reduce their overall dimensions. But it can be more expensive (((
@@MaxPivovarov I would have to hire a welder for that, and the need to flat pack the box means the joints would be complicated. It would be great in the end, but I couldn't afford that
@@MaxPivovarov Rivets or captive nuts/rivnuts would take about the same space as the panels I plan to use out of wood. Don't get me wrong, I know metal would work fine, but I'm not sure there's a strong enough argument for it over using white oak, and I am a wood worker (of sorts), so it's a material I'm comfortable working with.
My initial thought was a question: Gear ratio? And to make the question simple: What do we want the maximum propeller RPM to be and then will the minimum RPM matter? 😊
Aye, I need to find the cavitation RPM of the prop and then gear it appropriately. I know the outboard props can spin a lot faster, iirc they're good for up to 2000rpm or something like that? Anyway, I'll find the actual RPM and use a reduction gear.
@@anthonyrstrawbridge OK, this made me want to look up the prop's max RPM; The Tohatsu 9.9 had a max engine RPM of 4500~5300rpm, with a gear ratio of 1.85, setting the prop's max RPM as ~2800. The GM 5kw motor is rated to 3500rpm, so a reduction ration of 1.25:1 will work fine for my planned setup.
That's strictly true, but the torque delivery of electric is a lot better. You don't get peak torque on an ICE until a specific RPM. Will be fun to test when she's in the water.
@@TheDigitalMermaid When it was built the C&C 38 had a Yanmar 3HM. The torque curve on that, and similar low RPM diesels, is practically flat. The 3HM delivers 75nm+/-5nm from 1200RPM to 3000RPM. I'm curious what sort of torque curve you expect from an electric motor that will do a bunch better. I agree it will be fun to test, and I will watch.
I've been using numbers mostly gleened from other conversions done by similar sized boats. There's a chance that I'll go in the water and find this seriously under powered. If that happens, I already got the canbus option on the motor controller, so I could get a second motor and controller and run them in parallel with minimal effort. The only real other change needed would be a longer belt.
interesting legislation that is saying that sealed battery needs to be vented. but to be honest once it will vent anything i think at that point you have more to worry about other things... btw that design isn't looking good. because if one small bms connection will broke ..or wire will broke at that connection your whole pack is offline at that moment..and there is no easy way to go there and repair it..but i'm sure you will your best but ofc always think how to fix it on the water alone without taking out 1/2 of your ship :) but I hope it will be awesome experience with building ship what ever result will be :)
The packs are electrically fully independent. If a BMS lead breaks, I can disconnect that one pack and be down 1/6th capacity (until I can repair it). This is the main reason I didn't do something like 6P16S, specifically to minimize losses if I lose a pack for any reason while under way.
@@TheDigitalMermaid yes I understand. still i would think carefully and maybe find way how to repair something in pack in case needed well ofc it all depend how critical that battery pack is..maybe if you will only on short roads/waters ..then even if two packs would fail still not a problem..but if it was situation like around the globe or such..then that is for sure different story :)
@@SylwerDragon By ABYC standards, the 4awg 105c jacket wires I'm using per pack means I can safely pull 110A per pack. I'll likely use 100A breakers, so each pack can deliver over 5kw. My 10kw motor, at full speed (something I expect to never do, but...) is 13kw. So I could have three packs fail, and I could still easily deliver the power I need for wide open throttle. The three packs on the top I'll be able to fix underway, so worst case scenario I can still keep the boat going with no loss in power (thought some loss in range) in most any failure scenario. As I mentioned in the video, I'd much prefer to have all six packs easily accessible, but the space constraints simply don't allow that.
@@TheDigitalMermaid Thanks with your cells i don't see any problem in high power cabling and yes i understand it is hard to repair stuff if there is no space..it is how it is. Good luck with your project and let us enjoy the ride at least over video..that is ,haha
Equal weight distribution is very important . the batteries are very heavy and now that you have no need for a diesel tank full of fuel that weight must be compensated for . Jut like an aircraft has a center og gravity so does a boat . You should try to match the original design intent of balance as cliosely as possible.
i like both i love seeing the planning fase as much as the building vids . both are equaly as interesting to me . just do what you wish if you have to set up a planning channel as well as building channel ! just please let me know so i can sub to the planning channel
Thanks for this, Lonny. I think it doesn't make since to have a second channel. The views are doing ok, so it seems like folks are interested in this style of video, so I'm leaning towards making more like this.
@@TheDigitalMermaid cool look forward to seeing them . well others will tend to use videos like this to learn and work along with you on other projects that use the same skills
Exactly. I doubt I'd need water cooling if I only ever planned to drive the dinghy, but if I am pushing the main boat, I'll very much need active cooling.
Regarding videos, in my non-professional opinion, it's better to create short clips (10-15 minutes) that focus on a single topic. This format is easier and more convenient to watch and discuss, and it's also simpler for viewers to find 10-15 minutes to watch a video rather than carving out time for longer ones.
Aye, this is advice I've heard many times. When I've tried to make shorter videos, I find that I end up needing to cut out more than I want though. I actually thought of making this video three separate ones, one for each sub topic. Maybe I should have done that... I need to keep thinking on this.
Talk all you want. Most to me is useless information however a lot of good engineering information to apply to what I am going to be doing. In any project is is good to know more than you need to know to get the job done.
@@TheDigitalMermaid Yes just a small Island Packet, 30 foot over all. Project one is solar with all Victron electronics , Renogy panels and undecided on battery brand but will be LiFePO4 and thinking 480 amp hours with the ability to discharge @ 350 to 400 amp. My largest load will be 1800W for a cook top so if used it will only run 10 or 15 minuets a day tops. Battery's use to be just that a battery now they have brains in them and way more potential power that can be used at an alarming rate with a good BMS
You could remote link the controls for the outboard to the main controls for the boat, giving you the option to still pilot from the boat (or if you wanted extreme speed run them all at the same time!). If your hanging a wire over side for power adding a control line should be easy.
Ooooooooh. Now that's a fantastic idea!
@@TheDigitalMermaid Just remember to add a "dead man switch" so if it drops communication between the microcontrollers it fail's safe (eg full stop).
@@TheDigitalMermaid and your using microcontrollers, you could make it wifi, and do it from your phone also :) or just make the controls wireless, do like wires though. Maybe there is a usecase to control it from the dock?
@@patrickdk77 I have (longer term) plans to make the main boat's helm remote controllable. Not sure I'd want to do that for the dinghy though... I can't imagine I'd ever be able to get the tiller under remote control.
Great plans for the battery's. Are you not concerned that servicing a battery issue in the future wil be difficult? But I understand That having multiple removable units will add enormous complexity. Great homemade modules BTW!
I look forward to "all" of your videos. Format and post them any way you want.
Thanks, Harris. :)
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Maddi.
Let me throw some ideas for the battery box.
Put aprox 50mm holes in the back of the box, to be able to push a battery row out from the back to front in any case it is needed.
To slide the cells in, make a step at the front to lay down and fix a bord from where you can slide the battery row in.
Slide, maybe there is some PTFE Foil outside to put under for better sliding.
Pull the PTFE out after the blocks are in.
That are my 2 Cents here.
Cheers
Marc
I used to buy Fujitsu servers, and they'd come with straps around the servers to make it easier to pull them out of the box. I had planned to do something similar around the raw cells. Your idea would work, but I'd like to control where air enters into the box better so I can get a chimney draft going when the cells are charging/discharging for convection cooling.
@@TheDigitalMermaid Hi Maddi, yes I know this straps from 15 years ago. Didn`t had them in mind.
With them you don`t need any access from behind.
Cheers
Marc
PTFE is pretty expensive, 5 thou sheet would be like $500 to cover the whole area.
The low friction idea is great though. Plastic World sells UHMW, you could get a 1/8" sheet cut into thin strips and place 2 under each cell row. Looks like $60 for 48x 1/2" wide strips.
@@electrowizard2000 Cutting up those thin cutting board sheets might work also.
@@electrowizard2000 Or, what about thin Epoxy plates?
My only thought was during the time sliding the batteries in it would be good to have not so much friction resistance.
But after they are in, it should be removed.
Hi I think keeping the planning and build posts separate is a good idea, as it allows time for us the viewers to answer a question you may ask or make a suggestion before the work is completed. A couple of other thoughts: E-Bike twist throttle for the "Amp-board" (Water resistance). Maybe an older motor (Without reverse) and investigate the possibility of direct drive (With a right angle gear at the foot) Loving the content !!!
I concur with separating planing and building.
About the gearshifting, she just needs to jam it in either direction and use the controller for direction.
I've been trying to find what the prop RPM was initially, and so far it looks like the old engine was 5300rpm max with a reduction ration of 1.85, so the prop max speed would be about 2800. The 5kw motor's max RPM is 3500, so I'll need to run through a 1.25:1 reduction to avoid cavitation. So direct drive isn't likely going to work. As for the twist throttle, I've got an idea on that. I think I can put pot inside the housing where the current twist mechanism goes. I want to keep it looking stock if I can. I'll just need to find a want to have it self-center when released.
@@frejaresund3770 That's kind of the idea. There's a high-low switch, so I might have "forward" be high speed and "reverse" be lot speed, and have the same "joystick mode" that I'm using on the helm of the main boat. Twist the throttle to center for neutral, one way for forward, the other for reverse.
The answer to your either/or question is ... yes 😁
But seriously, everyone is happy with what makes you happy. It's crazy that you are working on such a big project _and_ invest energy into making videos too 🙂
I get a lot of wonderful feedback that helps me make this project better. So as much as I'd do it just because folks seem to enjoy them, there's very real benefits to the project that would make the videos worth it regardless. :)
I like to see the planning videos. Looks like you've been making good progress!
I'm glad to hear, thank you. :)
Madi,
it is always interesting listening to your PLANNING
&
Problem Solving
as you go along your PROCESS
Thanks
COOP
...
Thanks, Coop!
I appreciate your videos about your thought process and planning. Thank you for sharing. I do enjoy watching someone with even worse OCD than myself AND cats.... Squirrel!!! :)
🐿️
This all sounds like a very solid and thought out plan for the battery boxes. The only side note I have is to maybe consider sandwich fiberglass (preferably foam core or even wood) as the material. It's immune to rot, light, and just stupid strong for it's size and weight. It can also be basically any shape. Even with no experience making these, it's really not hard (harder for more complex shapes, trivial for just boards).
Then again, I also understand drawing the line somewhere. There surely is enough new stuff being learned already, picking your battles so to speak.
@@TheCreat If the plywood box shows that I need to shave off length or width, changing the interior dividers to fiberboard is certainly on the table.
Great to see so many sub-projects underway and the progress. As an alternative to the proto boards for all key circuits, given the low cost and quick turnaround of PCB manufactures these days, might be easier and quicker. Of course if you are proficient in soldering and enjoy that vs. computer work the proto boards are the best solution for you. Good luck and looking forward to the days back in the water. Best regards.
I fully plan to make PCBs, but I don't have the skills yet. So the protoboards are both helping me get better at soldering, but also filling the gap as I learn. :)
I personally enjoy seeing your thoughts process. The build as well
I'm glad to hear, Mike! Thanks for watching.
I like seeing the thought process, even if you think its boring ive found it valuable :)
Thanks, Scott. :)
To gain back some vertical space on your box you're reserving for tools, you could screw it together from the inside with Kregg Screws
I use pocket holes fairly often, they're wonderful. In this case though, the "meat" that the anchor needs to bite into are the 16mm bottom and mid plates, so the screws/bolts need to come in from the outside.
Very cool project!
When I built mine I removed the water pump because of a lot of resistance to turn the shaft it might be better to use a electric water pump
Aye, I started thinking after recording that the pump might have been connected to the engine. Either way, there's a place to pick up water cleanly, so even with an electric pump it should be fine.
Looking at the CAD design for your battery support box, I am having trouble visualizing where the cables are going to run and how you will connect between sets of cells. This was a great informative video! I am amazed at your hard work and perseverance!
Each pack is fully self contained, so there's no cross-pack connections. Each pack will have a pair of 4awg cables going out to anderson connectors. Those will have corresponding leads going to an external bus bar. What's missing in the 3D model is the face plate, which will have the BMS power button, disconnect switch and breaker. That face panel will be easily removable for servicing the BMS, accessing the internal fuses, etc. Thanks for the kind words! ^_^
Your intro was brilliant!
Hehe, thanks :)
LMMFAO @ Engine cowling on head, then again at "A nice water feature", Dork. Love it! Now battery box, you are talking about a LOT of weight, and your talking about controlling this weight with wood. May I suggest steel? Maybe you can't weld, but your smart AF, so you could learn, believe me. Steel would handle a lot more weight with a lot less material. Yes I am a steel guy. but I believe for a reason
If I was going to use metal, it's be aluminium. I have wood working skills, but I don't have metal working skills. White oak is really strong, and I kinda like the idea of a big arsed block of power in a pretty wooden box. I'm sure I could learn to weld, but I don't have the equipment, or the time right now.
some thoughts: Engine of an outboard rotate in 1 direction only. For forward, Reverse. and yes Neutral too. Because the shaft drives the waterpump (impellor in little white/yellow plastic box on lower end where shaft comes out upwards:) . It means the actual mechanical shifting can only be done in the gearbox. (in the lower end behind the prop with a push/pull rod to a more handy place) You can turn an electric motor, thus shaft in any direction, reversing rotation of the shaft would cause the waterpump to malfunction:
It would be much easier to limit control to forward and leave mecanics in place. But with the wish to keep controls on main and outboard the same with motor reverse possibility, this requires some thinking about changing shaft, mechanicals of gears (welding it fixed) and different waterpump setup, Electrical or mechanical.
OK, this was super helpful! So it means that I'm going to not be able to copy the throttle logic I use in the main boat, as the forward/reverse must stay the same motor turning direction, and I can only switch using the lever that changes the gear box on the lower end? If I decided to switch to an electric pump, would I be able to "lock" the prop to the driving shaft and reverse the electric motor to reverse direction? If I have to change the mechanical, I won't. I want the helm control software and hardware to be open source, so maybe I can add both methods of driving and have a toggle switch or jumper on the board to select "drive mode".
@@TheDigitalMermaid "lock" the prop: yes: weld the pushrod lever in gearbox in forward position, or disassemble and put a piece of pipe over the horizontal shaft so the lever is fixed in 1 position. (watch this video to know what i mean:)
Its very clear about the workings of shifter th-cam.com/video/9ib2OkytCBs/w-d-xo.htmlsi=v5Gw8tF2U5h5jz8k
But. Always a but..grrrr. You will lose the neutral. iow the immediate stopping of propulsion. When docking: bit power, neutral, bit, much reverse, neutral etc. If the electric motor has no run out and still can stop immediate, your ok. Otherwise some more thoughts/ideas might be in order. For main boat electric engine this will be also the case.
Electric pump: The impeller pump is run by the speed of the shaft so amount water increases when speed increases. An electric pump will have to be controlled how fast it must run. (there goes brain waves into and another STM again:)))
Pros: all electrical control, Cons: an extra addition, It will take up space in a not electrical friendly environment. I have no idea how much water of certain temp/cooling effect is needed for the electrical motor: must be calculated? I (wildly) guess that he impeller for a combustion engine will be good enough for electric motor, is that true? And separate electrical waterpumps are relative big powerconsumers which is not ideal either. For either options some machining has to be done. Electric: water pickup, and for impeller run a hose to a new location.
Some loose thoughts. What about some sense and control wires through the plug, as with cars the maincontrol knows were it is put in and what to deliver or functions to shut off. On the software side, this could be a build in one build: run in option 1 for main boat/battery or option B for dinghy. I guess the other prop, displacement, use, etc of a dinghy will require some other power/force settings anyway. So a one to one copy might not be ideal anyway.
Every helm outboard can be converted to control it (steering, gas and shifting) at greater distance with morse cables. Not fancy but it is really 90ties:)) But these could be replaced with an clean DC 48V linear actuator for the shifter.
In all it seems that 99% of outboard use will be as boat to shore/exploring dinghy. The option as side tied backup is nice but secondary. My thought/choice would be to keep it as simple and on the way serviceable as possible. Which is: electric outboard motor is electrically restricted to forward only, keep shifting at the helm and cooling with impeller for a start and build from there if needed. The winter is over before you know it and didn't you have 'some' other projects.....:))
@@LucScheffers Okay, that video makes it really clear, thank you! Losing neutral is something to think about... As I mentioned in the video, I've got no existing experience with outboards, so for me learning to live without neutral isn't a concern. However, I could see it throwing friends off who try to use it. I'll need to think on this.
As for the pump; I already planned in the main boat to have the pump come on based on temperature, so that code will exist anyway. From a power consumption; Nothing comes for free... if the mechanical pump is driven, that takes power from the prop. So I think from a battery range question, it's more or less a wash. Though electric might be more efficient, if only because it doesn't turn on at all until actually needed.
I think ya, for the very rare time I need to use this to tow the boat, I'll just do it from the dinghy. I can always create remote controls some time down the road if I find myself wanting for a project.
@@TheDigitalMermaid It all depends how fast the prop (thus propulsion) stops after electric engine stop. I lack the knowledge here.
But as a rule: The more mass*speed you have the more of an issue it a slow stopping prop can be in small spaces like docking. A dinghy is light and rubbery so i for see less problems there.
Awesome video. Keep them coming.
Thanks, Marc!
Hurray. An American using metric! You are going to succeed with all your projects 🙂
Sorry to disappoint, but I'm Canadian. :)
My suggestion is to throw a pod motor on the bottom of the leg. I've built them both ways. Pods are more efficient, easier and way quieter. Stick the controller in the under the cowling.
Aye, it would be great to get rid of all gearing. It's got a few drawbacks in my case though, mainly that I've yet to find an option that is hackable. It would also likely cost more than I can really justify right now.
9.9's were 10hp engines, rated as such as most jurisdictions don't require boat registration for under 10hp. I know that OMC (Johnson/Evinrude) outboards the 9.9 and 15 hp engines shared a lot in common, and you could shove a 15hp engine under a 9.9hp cover. (don't ask how I know) Apparently you could also make some modifications to a 9.9hp engine to convert it onto a 15hp one, but don't remember all that was involved to do it.
Ah, ok that makes sense. For raw pushing power, I suspect I'll be closer to a 15 when this build is done.
@@TheDigitalMermaid many 9.9 HP's (yamaha's/ Envirudes for sure) have the same prop, lower en and gears, shaft and 2 cylinder powerhead and ignition as a 15HP, but with a different (smaller high speed needle set) carburator. Cause manufacturers know this they would make price of 15hp carburators extreme expensive. Next to to that the 5 hp extra is using 1/3 more fuel even at stationary speeds. not always a thing you want or need.
You tricked me, thought you were a floor lamp. The project is looking exciting.
Oh man, I could have stuck a couple of my small lights in there!
Love it, keep the video’s coming.
^_^ Thanks Segway!
As for you video's question. Like you said. Now the are updates of much incredible work done "behind the scenes". With easy you could cut this video in 3 shorter one's. With some extra footage of you measuring, twisting wires, go and pick up a blown engine. This could boost frequency which is liked by YT and us too':))) But....Remember that the one and only and yes biggest interest factor is you:) So doing what feels good for you is always the best to keep on going!
I think I really need to try making more-but-shorter videos... I'll think about how to do that. :)
I also do not recommend using solid wood panels, as they are prone to warping with changes in humidity. Marine plywood or bakelite plywood(Phenolic Plywood) would be a much better choice.
@@MaxPivovarov White oak is particularly stable and often used in wood working, and it's stronger that marine plywood. That's why I plan to use it. I can control potential warp by selecting rift sawn stock, to
If you're going to use water cooling, you'll have to use the original reverse gear for changing the direction of motion, as the original cooling pump cannot operate when rotating in reverse.
Ah, that's good to know! I might end up putting a small electric pump in the head and have a temp switch turn it on only when needed. Knowing that the pump is linked to the gearing makes me lean more that way. Thanks kindly for that info!
@@TheDigitalMermaid An important addition: since the reverse gearbox uses spiral bevel gears, using the same gear in both directions has limitations. Therefore, always use the forward gear as the primary one (it can work for reverse, but less efficiently). However, the reverse gear should not be used as the primary one. Therefore, the rotation direction of the electric motor must match the rotation of the gasoline engine when moving forward.
@@MaxPivovarov I suspect that I don't use reverse often, and not for long. So if I lose cooling in reverse, it _shouldn't_ be too big of a deal. I'll test of course though.
@@TheDigitalMermaid "lose cooling in reverse" You lose cooling permanently after the reverse because this will destroy the impeller.
Motor always turns the same way. Gearbox is down the bottom (controlled by the rod) and the water pump runs only 1 way on the main shaft.
Simplifies motor control as you don't need to reverse it.
Noted, thank you
Regarding electric water pumps. Catamaran Impi 10+yrs ago gave up on engine driven pump w impellor for diesel generator and went with a single speed 12v magnetic drive electric pump (no shaft or seals to leak) and was happy with it. Single speed was fine as its volume was matched for the fixed 1800rpm generator and its exhaust. Fixed speed magnetic drive water pump might work for you as well since you are not dealing with exhaust, however they do make variable speed versions that, when sized properly, might provide more cooling at high rpms. Assume you can get 48v dc versions as well . Not sure if these are self-priming so may need to be below waterline.
I plan to have 12v available (for lights), so running a 12v pump would be fine, too. Which pump did you go with, specifically? I've been struggling to find a decent quality, continuous operating 12vDC pump. I'd prefer variable speed, but I can add a controller to turn a single speed on/off as needed with a temp sensor.
@@TheDigitalMermaidI am a viewer of Catamaran Impi's videos, not the owner. I went to YTube "Catamaran Impi" and 7 yrs ago there is an episode "No impellor, no raw water pump- marine generator" At around the 10.5 min mark, owner brings up pump specs. My 7 yr memory was faulty about 12v, he used a 120/220v ac pump since he was using it on a generator that would supply 220. Pump was LC-3cp-md magdrive pump rated .5hp, 8gpm, max head 19ft. I did research 7 yrs ago for 12v versions and did find some on ebay, quality unknown, many used for fish ponds and the like. There were fixed and variable speed versions. Does the above pump come in dc motor version? Could the above pump be run by a 12v or 48v dc motor? You would have to see how things are attached
@@douglasrobbie9998 I found it, "LC-3CP-MD Seal-Less Magnetic Drive Pump", thank you! Unfortunately, it's $680 cad!!! That's a touch outside my budget :)
@@TheDigitalMermaid Centennial Equipment (online) has the PL-809 versions (12 or 24V) for US $307 (about $440 Can?) has 5-6 g/min and Polycarbonate Sulftone (PL designation) wet head that would be good for saltwater. There are probably Asian knockoff for less.
Projects taking all your space? At least kitty has a intresting playground. :)
That she does!
i appreciate all the effort you go to with all the detail you explain, but it gets a little much late in the evening when i find time to watch, i do tend to jump forward, now here's a simple approach (and cost effective i will add) access the boat, what do you need, ie what do you need to accommodate, what parts do you like and don't like, rip it all out, start with fresh canvas, resurface the entire back end inside, so new and fresh you could eat off it, but do let the paint dry first, do a nice white epoxy finish, then again reaccess, and simply mock stuff up in card board, yep you done some before
just a thought
Gutting and rebuilding the aft end of the boat would be a pretty darn big job. Of course, the end results would be better, but I want to get on the water as soon as I can. I _think_ this box will work, and if it does, I'll be that much closer to getting in the water. :)
@@TheDigitalMermaid sorry, yes finish and esthetics are quite high on my agenda, i have watched a few people, such as 'Sailing Magic Carpet' Aladino has done a superb job on remodeling, his finish is just incredible. spotless, you could eat your dinner out of the bilge
Treat these videos as Vlogs - I want to know what you are planning on doing as well as what you are doing - keep up the good work!
Hrm, I'll see how this one does. I was out getting the wood for the prototype box, and I thought "maybe I can do these videos for patreons" and make the build videos the public ones. I need to think more on it.
You are amazing . I like listening to you problem solve . I might not understand what you are saying .
Awe, thanks Jon!
Tube goes to the prop location to pump water up to the motor, you won’t need it if you’re going electric
I figured one of them was for the water. I'll use water cooling, so I'll still need to suck the water up. What I still really need to figure out is how the forward/reverse works. I'm sure it'll make sense once I start digging into it, but clearly there's some sort of linkage that goes to the lower end.
You will and it is. I assume it has an impeller pump that only works in one way, so jam the gear in forward since thats the majority direction. If you dump the "coolant" under the water I think the impeller will work both ways.
HOWdy T-D-M, ...
Nice "Motor-Head" Madi !
COOP
the WiSeNhEiMeR from Richmond, INDIANA
...
Howdy Coop
I do not recommend using a single box for all the batteries, as it could lead to significant issues if you need to replace one of the cells. I would suggest placing each section in its own separate box.
I considered that, but it won't fit. As it is, I'm up against the limits of the space I have to work with. Even if they were separate though, they'd be too heavy to move and I'd need to disassemble the packs on top to access the ones below. That said, I've got the assembly setup so that I can access the top three packs fairly easily, and I can access the lower ones by disassembling the top ones and removing the mid-level tray.
@@TheDigitalMermaid You could use aluminum boxes for each battery section. This would improve fire safety, enhance heat dissipation, make them lighter, and most importantly, reduce their overall dimensions. But it can be more expensive (((
@@MaxPivovarov I would have to hire a welder for that, and the need to flat pack the box means the joints would be complicated. It would be great in the end, but I couldn't afford that
@@TheDigitalMermaid Welding is not necessary here. The boxes can be assembled from sheets and corner connected with rivets.
@@MaxPivovarov Rivets or captive nuts/rivnuts would take about the same space as the panels I plan to use out of wood. Don't get me wrong, I know metal would work fine, but I'm not sure there's a strong enough argument for it over using white oak, and I am a wood worker (of sorts), so it's a material I'm comfortable working with.
My initial thought was a question: Gear ratio? And to make the question simple: What do we want the maximum propeller RPM to be and then will the minimum RPM matter? 😊
Aye, I need to find the cavitation RPM of the prop and then gear it appropriately. I know the outboard props can spin a lot faster, iirc they're good for up to 2000rpm or something like that? Anyway, I'll find the actual RPM and use a reduction gear.
@TheDigitalMermaid no no no
@@anthonyrstrawbridge no to what?
@@anthonyrstrawbridge OK, this made me want to look up the prop's max RPM; The Tohatsu 9.9 had a max engine RPM of 4500~5300rpm, with a gear ratio of 1.85, setting the prop's max RPM as ~2800. The GM 5kw motor is rated to 3500rpm, so a reduction ration of 1.25:1 will work fine for my planned setup.
YEE
5kw is a bit under 7hp. It would be enough for your dinghy, but pretty under powered for your boat.
That's strictly true, but the torque delivery of electric is a lot better. You don't get peak torque on an ICE until a specific RPM. Will be fun to test when she's in the water.
@@TheDigitalMermaid When it was built the C&C 38 had a Yanmar 3HM. The torque curve on that, and similar low RPM diesels, is practically flat. The 3HM delivers 75nm+/-5nm from 1200RPM to 3000RPM. I'm curious what sort of torque curve you expect from an electric motor that will do a bunch better. I agree it will be fun to test, and I will watch.
I've been using numbers mostly gleened from other conversions done by similar sized boats. There's a chance that I'll go in the water and find this seriously under powered. If that happens, I already got the canbus option on the motor controller, so I could get a second motor and controller and run them in parallel with minimal effort. The only real other change needed would be a longer belt.
interesting legislation that is saying that sealed battery needs to be vented. but to be honest once it will vent anything i think at that point you have more to worry about other things... btw that design isn't looking good. because if one small bms connection will broke ..or wire will broke at that connection your whole pack is offline at that moment..and there is no easy way to go there and repair it..but i'm sure you will your best but ofc always think how to fix it on the water alone without taking out 1/2 of your ship :) but I hope it will be awesome experience with building ship what ever result will be :)
The packs are electrically fully independent. If a BMS lead breaks, I can disconnect that one pack and be down 1/6th capacity (until I can repair it). This is the main reason I didn't do something like 6P16S, specifically to minimize losses if I lose a pack for any reason while under way.
@@TheDigitalMermaid yes I understand. still i would think carefully and maybe find way how to repair something in pack in case needed well ofc it all depend how critical that battery pack is..maybe if you will only on short roads/waters ..then even if two packs would fail still not a problem..but if it was situation like around the globe or such..then that is for sure different story :)
@@SylwerDragon By ABYC standards, the 4awg 105c jacket wires I'm using per pack means I can safely pull 110A per pack. I'll likely use 100A breakers, so each pack can deliver over 5kw. My 10kw motor, at full speed (something I expect to never do, but...) is 13kw. So I could have three packs fail, and I could still easily deliver the power I need for wide open throttle. The three packs on the top I'll be able to fix underway, so worst case scenario I can still keep the boat going with no loss in power (thought some loss in range) in most any failure scenario. As I mentioned in the video, I'd much prefer to have all six packs easily accessible, but the space constraints simply don't allow that.
@@TheDigitalMermaid Thanks with your cells i don't see any problem in high power cabling and yes i understand it is hard to repair stuff if there is no space..it is how it is. Good luck with your project and let us enjoy the ride at least over video..that is ,haha
Equal weight distribution is very important . the batteries are very heavy and now that you have no need for a diesel tank full of fuel that weight must be compensated for . Jut like an aircraft has a center og gravity so does a boat . You should try to match the original design intent of balance as cliosely as possible.
I'm spoken about balance, trim and weight in previous videos.
i like both i love seeing the planning fase as much as the building vids . both are equaly as interesting to me . just do what you wish if you have to set up a planning channel as well as building channel ! just please let me know so i can sub to the planning channel
Thanks for this, Lonny. I think it doesn't make since to have a second channel. The views are doing ok, so it seems like folks are interested in this style of video, so I'm leaning towards making more like this.
@@TheDigitalMermaid cool look forward to seeing them . well others will tend to use videos like this to learn and work along with you on other projects that use the same skills
Unless you’re going water cooled electric
Exactly. I doubt I'd need water cooling if I only ever planned to drive the dinghy, but if I am pushing the main boat, I'll very much need active cooling.
Regarding videos, in my non-professional opinion, it's better to create short clips (10-15 minutes) that focus on a single topic. This format is easier and more convenient to watch and discuss, and it's also simpler for viewers to find 10-15 minutes to watch a video rather than carving out time for longer ones.
Aye, this is advice I've heard many times. When I've tried to make shorter videos, I find that I end up needing to cut out more than I want though. I actually thought of making this video three separate ones, one for each sub topic. Maybe I should have done that... I need to keep thinking on this.
Talk all you want. Most to me is useless information however a lot of good engineering information to apply to what I am going to be doing. In any project is is good to know more than you need to know to get the job done.
That this might help you or others in their projects makes me really happy! What is your project? Going by your name, I assume you're also a sailor?
@@TheDigitalMermaid Yes just a small Island Packet, 30 foot over all. Project one is solar with all Victron electronics , Renogy panels and undecided on battery brand but will be LiFePO4 and thinking 480 amp hours with the ability to discharge @ 350 to 400 amp. My largest load will be 1800W for a cook top so if used it will only run 10 or 15 minuets a day tops. Battery's use to be just that a battery now they have brains in them and way more potential power that can be used at an alarming rate with a good BMS
At least it wasnt a Bucket of KFC on your head.
Lol!