Why Everyone's Social Skills Are Getting Worse (ft. David Brooks)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 มิ.ย. 2024
- People are becoming increasingly lonely and are unable to relate to one another. Yet we have access to more people than ever before. What's going on?
Is it technology? Is social media replacing our sense of community with the empty calories of the sweet, sweet For You feed?
Or maybe it’s the deterioration of the nuclear family-fewer kids are being born and being raised by fewer parents?
Or is it the lack of religion in public life? Or the geographic exodus from small towns and communities towards big anonymous cities? Or the economic inequality and complete loss of work/life balance?
These are questions that I-and renowned journalist and author David Brooks-unpack together as we nose dive into the social and emotional disconnect of millions of people.
Need lessons on how to talk to the barista making your coffee? Looking to build a better relationship with Gary from across the fence? This episode won’t make you a master of communication overnight, but it’s a fascinating conversation packed with useful insight from beginning to end.
Listen to it.
0:00 Introduction
2:46 Why we’re in a social crisis
5:55 The harsh judgment of social media
8:06 The growth of distrust
10:57 The decline of the traditional family
15:14 On communitarian cultures
16:24 Making America more “relationalist”
18:19 The Scandinavian and Israeli success
20:33 Is this success replicable in a diverse society?
23:32 The vice of today’s generation
29:19 David’s take on politics
32:11 Mark on the evolution of self-help
33:57 The recession of religion
38:33 Friction is the point
39:46 The “second mountain”
46:42 What we’re really motivated by
49:55 Can we go straight to the “second mountain”?
David Brooks is a journalist and bestselling author of seven books, including his newest, “How to Know a Person.” David has had a popular column at the New York Times for over 20 years and teaches courses on philosophy at Yale.
David Brooks on Twitter @nytdavidbrooks: / nytdavidbrooks
David Brooks’ column: www.nytimes.com/column/david-...
David's new book “How to Know a Person:” www.amazon.com/How-Know-Perso...
My shit:
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I have PTSD from being hurt by people I trusted but the craziest thing to me is when I tell someone, they either say I deserved it or I was stupid to let it happen, there’s hardly anyone who showed me some compassion. I realized that at this point the trauma itself does not affect me but the apathy or blaming is deeply painful and makes it harder to get over it because if someone comforts you, that can regulate your emotions.
I'm sending you a soft hug; I have one of the most book examples of malicious examples of narcisstic mothers; I went through strong psychosomatic problems,as well as sexual trauma. I don't get why ppl aren't willing to support others when there's so much pain and suffering. Most of ppl sadly are "trained" to keep 'the pecking order' and I see how strangely they spread it also to relationships. I would try to write an essay,but since I'm bad with keeping things short...I just wanted to say "hey,here, feel some warmth in this cold World"
from what i understand so much of the trauma response comes from proper support not being given. i'm sorry people have treated you that way. there are people out there who are compassionate and i really hope you can find someone like that
We are kinda in the same boat there mate
Hope you are holding on, cheers!
I know what you mean. I am constantly reflecting on just how deceitful and manipulative people in my life that I trusted really were. So disappointing.
Apathy is from thick skinned people who’ve been traumatized themselves and built that thick skin and apathy like a scar tissue.
In a society where most people are traumatized, you’ll only encounter apathy. You have to discover a new society who isn’t traumatized and therefore haven’t yet turned bitter and jaded and can show you warmth and compassion.
Just from my experience, being an open, empathetic, kind person really paints a target on your back for people to use and destroy. You have to really be careful with it in order to get by in a world that seems obsessed with success at any cost. All of our issues with loneliness, mental health, etc is clearly us crying out for this to change.
I completely agree. I’m a submissive, generous people pleaser with low self esteem and realize I can’t change who I naturally am… After being hurt, taken advantage of, etc. by people I’ve chosen to isolate myself from the world.
I have a few pets so I’m not lonely and now finally feel safe. I like cats and beekeeping because although these creatures could technically hurt me, they don’t as long as treat them with respect. Can’t say the same for humans.
@@molls0922instead of isolating yourself (which is never a good option) maybe try to start set boundaries for yourself? There is always a possibility that someone takes advantage of us but I think it's worth risking as long as you are genuine and work on yourself. you can't control other people but how you react to then
@@molls0922 cats are pretty darn cute. I say most of them, because they can have very different personalities like people. There's this one Bengal cat on TH-cam that imitates bird noises. That's about as cute as it gets for any video, ever created.
This is me too, it paints a huge target on you and you have to be so careful
@@molls0922what a cop out to say you can’t change aspects about yourself that are clearly not just “how you are” 🙄 Lazy ignorant cop out cuz it’s not easy to do one has to confront much about themselves and loved ones…..it takes energy and work. No one I just born with low self esteem submissive blah blah …..and sorry most of us have been hurt….come ON.
My ex husband tried to kill me ….after a decade of intense extreme abuse in every form I got away from him and paid the price. He’s in prison now….Some things are worse than death imo. But I’ve spent the last 10yrs healing and growing and I’m 52.
You don’t NEED romance or a partner….there’s many kinds of love and vulnerability….and frankly I think romantic love is the WORST for getting needs met…..absolute worst. I’m single by choice the last 8yrs….
I think people are so overwhlemed they don't have the capacity to care about others anymore. My cousin just told me she won't be coming to my father's funeral next week because it clashes with a holiday she booked and paid for. I am astounded. My father had her live in our family home with her fiance when she was a struggling artist. I flew across the country at great expense for her mother's funeral without a thought. I thought that's what family was for. Apparently not. Nobody seems willing to go the extra mile for anyone else these days. It's sad.
She is poor... People with limited resources have different brain chemistry.
Don't be sad, you will need her after the funeral when all others are gone.
wow. God forgive me but that is unforgivable. or maybe more so unforgettable! I would not treat my cousin the same if that ever happened - I would love her from a distance. she chose a trip over a loved one that helped her get by. smh peoples priorities are all messed up these days.
that sounds like a story too unreal to be true, something went terribly wrong during the development of your cousin’s character, distancing yourself from her sounds like the wisest course of action… even close friends would be there for you at a parent’s funeral, having a relative neglect such an intimate circumstance is utterly unacceptable
No. She just showed her true colours. That's all.
While it is an interesting conversation, both speakers are missing the central point of why social skills are getting worse: it is because people don't have to do a lot of things anymore. Social skills were for a large part the result of neccessary interactions with the society around you. Today you are able to live in the middle of society and survive without speaking to anyone for a year if you wanted. That is the major cause, our ability to be independent has had the side effect that we aren't forced into interaction that cause us to learn a lot of skills that we have taken for granted.
You make a very good point! We sacrifice human contact at the alter of convenience all the time.
I think it’s the lack of free activities and people having WAY WAY WAY less free time.
I have a lot of free time and I’ve been able to keep friends after the first 10+ years of my life they had left me and ghosted me.
I also think it’s the mental health epidemic that’s causing some problems too, so I think in my opinion.
It’s the lack of third spaces, no one has free time anymore, the mental health epidemic, economic crisis’s and housing crisis’s, and lack of free public transport and activities.
And more stuff but eh, there’s too much rush and not enough free time for to know each other.
@@Poptheboppeople have plenty of free time, they just choose to spend it at home on their phones and watch movies at home because it's way more comfortable.
@@Popthebop Id argue a lot of free time has been sucked up by phones and the internet, so it seems like you don’t have a ton of time but you really do. It just gets sucked into technology. I mean when I track my time I notice after work I spend a shit ton of time from 7-12 online and not interacting with anyone unless Ive planned some hangout beforehand. Also the third place argument only works for North America, as Europe has a ton of third places and they still see the same problems. Phones and Computers have become the new third place, but a much lower quality one.
The main problem is.......... the world is so rush rush that nobody has time for relationships.
Go to work, go to bed, pay the bills, there is no relax time to improve on these social skills.
Yeah the main problem is the world doesn't work and humans are full of shit
Isn't your co-workers forming relationships with you? I'm confused if they don't
It happened to me today. I went on a nature walk with my banjo to find a quiet place to practice and get a mental break. I was on my way back to my car when I ran into this woman who was walking her dog and intrigued by my interesting place to practice. My first thought was "Oh, I have to go. I have a paper to finish and everything" and I was keen on escaping the conversation. Realized my mistake on my way back to the car. Fate had rain in the forecast and she started running back down the trail. Gave it another shot and made a new friend!
You are 100% correct. We are so busy and can't live in the moment.
I struggled with this. My advice to you is you can’t change the world but you can change something about you. Forget the way the world works. Most people are too dumb to realize what’s really important. If they had 1 day left to live, they shouldn’t be working. Prioritize the time for your mom and dad. Siblings. Join some sort of hobby after work. I know you’re tired but do it anyways. You might meet new people at classes for hobbies.
@@DrAngelKinsusually these relationships aren't the most private and deepest.
my high school experience was effected by this weird epidemic of not wanting to get involved in anything. We had SO many events, including dances, canceled because of “lack of interest”. It became a joke when we’d hear a morning announcement once again cancel something due to this. Nobody bought tickets, not enough people wanted to go. Its sad that this is effecting so many people on this level
That's crazy. Are you still in high school? How old are you?
That is really unfortunate
That's so sad.
well we are having an economical problem inflation his kicking people
😊
Nobody teaches people social skills, I’ve noticed that the friends I have now are way worse than the ones I had in high school. Nobody ask follow up questions to stories I tell, there’s this incredible lack of any genuine interest in me or my thoughts and feelings, there’s never any attempt to reach out either, im always the one having to send follow up text or messages to keep the friendship flowing. It feels like a one-way street friendship. I suspect that there’s multiple reasons for this. Social media is one, the economic system we have now where anyone barely has money to do anything, the increasing rise in groceries and rent and housing prevent many people from having children at this day and age. There’s also the fact that we don’t have any third spaces or communal anymore. The only third space is the internet which leads to internet addiction, since communication and community is something we need naturally as human beings. There’s wayyyyy more things to add to this list but it’s like a gigantic snowball that just keeps adding up and up until it becomes a rolling disaster.
You've nailed a lot of what seems to be going on, and I really feel you about friends now versus even a decade ago.
There seems to be a real lack of intent with people?
Like, do you ever just feel if only people made a little effort, they could get what they wanted too?! They want the benefits of friendship without actually showing up or living with gratitude? All the instant gratification is so frustrating, too much convenience is so inconvenient.
@@UnexpectedAmy eh, I think some of it is actually just having incompatible friendships.
Every single friendship I’ve had before my current friendships have been just incompatible as HELL.
I loved them dearly but it just didn’t work, and I think that’s also a problem.
We stay friends with people we don’t actually like, or don’t actually like us. Which just leads to things getting worse and feeling even more bad.
Friendship is a 2 way street, if you don’t feel compatible that’s okay!
People who like you will make an effort, you will know!
It’s just not everyone stays friends or they grow apart, and that’s okay.
You also don’t need to have them check in every day to be friends, either.
There’s big problems but it isn’t always the “phones” because if it was wouldn’t this sorta thing been a problem with all forms of communication?
I honestly do not think it’s internet addiction, because me and my friends are all on the chronically online spectrum and we are friends and we talk a lot!
True.
And It's one thing to diagnose the problem and see what needs changing, and quite another to have other people be aware of the destruction and want to help change things.
that is so true. people don't want to make any effort no more it's ridiculous
With regarding people checking up on me, I be hoping each day they do but no one ever does
I think a lot of people are scared to try out their lives these days. They're more comfortable being voyeurs and trying to learn through other people's advice and actions. Then when confronted with tough situations, they think of the 5 different ways they have heard how to handle it and stress themselves out, leading to them making a random decision out of fear. Then they try to avoid confronting tough situations again in the future.
Learning resilience and building of self-confidence through adversity while learning to be diplomatic is an art of balance that isn't as prevalent anymore. We're in the culture of treating everything and everyone as disposable.
I'm someone who absolutely loves solitude and spirituality but I do feel bad for those who crave relationships and intimacy because these seem like hard times for them.
Stupidity has consequences.
There’s definitely trends, I think you’re right in that people experience less. Experiences help shape ourselves and how we respond to external stimuli, but there’s also so many unhealthy coping mechanisms and escapism today that it’s harder than ever to be forced to figure it out, because people can just cope. If they have a bad experience, it’s not that most will never learn, but it’s much harder in today’s society with consumerism and overstimulation/addiction
@@SC-gw8np Stupidity has benefits too, though. If you're stupid you're always in good company, and can also fairly easily find someone to reproduce with. That's why the world has so many people that are stupid: By benefit of winning the numbers game, stupid people have an evolutionary advantage because highly intelligent people, especially ones that have very thoughtful and conscientious personalities, are a relatively new part of the human species and as such they are a small minority of all human beings.
I think you've hit the nail on the head when you say that people are more comfortable being voyeurs, in more ways than one.
I don't particularly like solitude, it's just that it beats the fuck out of the alternative!
My gullibility and trust has been 'rewarded' with ghosting and betrayal to the extent that just considering trusting another puts my body into a state of panic/anxiety. I don't see any way forward except more isolation and trying to regain trust of self. It is quite painful and depressing.
I’m sorry, friend. Hang in there. Resilience is the way forward.
Yep, these ungrateful idiots will never get close again
Thank you. :) @@filmrolled
It may seem counterintuitive but going out there and trying again without trusting is the way to go, at least for me. I will not let these cowards force me into a corner. That's exactly what they want. They want to be the ones out there winning and they feel that to win, they have to see somebody lose. End of story. I'm not going to be staying home so that these pieces of crap can feel like they won.
Be strong in who you are. Recognize to be mean, to be cruel is easy. Being kind and compassionate is hard. If you can hang on to your kindness in the face of cruelty you will be astounded by how strong you are.
Often unhappy or vindictive people are very uncomfortable around empathetic and friendly people. Especially when they can't use them.
I think lack of "third spaces" is a big part of the general lack of community and trust in local neighbors. Most people don't have enough time between work and other obligations to make use of what free spaces are available, and often those spaces aren't easily accessible for everyone (transport-wise or otherwise).
I'd be interested to see what controls the study on two-parent vs one-parent homes used. There's lots of "one-parent" homes that have very close friends to other community around them as a support system - and the supposed is the important part.
Especially when taking abusive home environments into consideration. Domestic violence is at an all time high here in Australia. A child’s mental health and safety is not better in an unsafe home as long as there are two parents. There’s too much nuance to those statistics. Abuse destroys people more than loneliness.
Like they said though, extended family and a trustworthy and empathetic support network is the key to happy, healthy people. Being trustworthy and empathetic is a choice each of us can make.
It's all planned. If you work people to death, have a car reliant system and raise rents.. you've created better consumers because people are gonna look for it elsewhere
We had the same third places decades ago, its not like parks suddenly disappeared. What happened is that people stopped using the third places we have.
@@gamerdude7024Sorry, but your comment reads like you don’t go out often and have a skewed view of your neighborhood. I hate people who lecture about this stuff and in reality are just shut ins who rants about society all the time.
It really is so hard to build a meaningful relationship in this day and age. It seems like no one wants, at minimum, a long term committed relationship. I don't even dare think about marriage. I'm 28 years old and crave a life with a partner. I'm also very independent, I can absolutely survive and thrive on my own but some of the things I want out of my life require a partner. And I'm sorry, but I don't want to be alone my entire life. When I lament that dating is hard and everyone seems scared of even the smallest amount of commitment I always get the same responses from people. I need to be happy on my own, I have so much time, I shouldn't rush.. I just want to build a long term, happy, healthy relationship with someone who can be my best friend, partner, and lover. I don't know why that seems to be such a huge, insurmountable feat.
I feel that! At this point all I want is a good friend, and nothing else but it seems even that is far too much to ask from people nowadays. It’s crazy cause I feel like I ask for the bare minimum… someone who will listen to me and I them, someone who is interested in what I think or say and I them, someone who I can have nice interesting deep conversations and who I can also listen to without any type of toxic shit, no competition, no judgement just… able to breathe and talk openly and without worries of what is being said being turned against you.
I think… what I ask for is the bare, bare, BARESTS of bare minimums but even that is starting to look unattainable to me, and from what im seeing a whole lot of other people in the comments as well. I don’t want to make out that im the best person here cause im not and I definitely have a lot of work left when it comes to working myself out but sometimes I wish I had a friend who is as devoted to their friends as I am to mine. For that same energy to be reciprocated you know? But I feel like there’s barely anyone left out there who knows how to be a good proper friend, or a good proper romantic partner, etc.
Nobody teaches these things, we are just supposed to just intuit it somehow or just know how and there’s a ton of people who have fallen through the cracks. And to top it off im 29! How the hell are you meant to meet new people and make new friends at this stage?! I’m semi-serious when I ask this 😂.
I hope (and think) things will get better, but the waiting can take its toll. Anyway idk what im writing anymore if you read all the way through thank you for taking the time to read my thoughts. Already you’ve done better than some of my irl friends! 😂
I hope you have a great day and that things get better for you soon.
EDIT: Something I neglected to mention when I first wrote this was that I used to have someone who did everything I wrote above… they would listen to me and where interested in what I said, my stories, ect. But I blew it, because I was an idiot shit-for-brains and didn’t have a fully developed frontal lobe. Please, guys… if someone good comes to your life please please PLEASE cherish them. Be grateful for them. Hang on to them and don’t let go. Don’t fumble like I did.
Have a blessed and prosperous year
I identify..
I get you. I also craved companionship and friendship but ended up being lonely and sad. It wasn't like I didn't try. I also got the advice like, be your own friend and enjoy spending time with yourself... And it sucks, for how long am I going to spend time with just myself?! We as humans are social animals and need human connection. A need for support and sharing. I know it is tough going through what you are going through... But I think you are on the right track. Don't give up. Find friends, date people and form relationships, work on them, invest in them, have fun but don't lose hope. Best of luck ❤
Everyone is saying and been brain washed to believe that ain't nobody needs a man. Well let me tell you... 2 people can make a very strong team in a relationship. I wish you all the luck! I am 4 years in and thankfully going strong.
Same. All the advices are about "be ok with yourself", "you need to accept myself before accepting others" and it's so annoying, because I see all my friends having girlfriends/boyfriends, why am I the only one who has to learn to spend time with myself for the rest of my life? That or they say the usual bullshit of "oh you will get someone eventually", implying a random girl will parachute fall in front of me when I don't expect it.
Also, another thing that is annoying is people trying to say that having friends by itself is fine, and I need no partner. It's obvious that a romantic relationship is a lot deeper and more meaningful than 99,99% of friendships, everyone knows that yet when you have trouble getting a romantic partner, they pretend this is not the case and just tell you to accept "just having friends"? Some of which literally live with their romantic partners and can't see the irony in their statement.
Social media has given people the right to be critical and cruel.
I am going to listen to this entire episode , but I really wanted to share real experience from myself. I’m a bleeding heart type, way too invested in others, and am way too considerate about the feelings and perspectives of others. Hyper empathetic, I have always easily placed myself in others shoes or thought about how my actions might affect others. I’ve been this way my entire life , as young at 11 or so. Very aware of the world around me.
It baffles and scares me, how seemingly pseudo-sociopathic my peers can be. I’m 24 years old guy. Not only do many not know how to carry a conversation (often trying to hold a convo or get to know anyone my age feels like I’m giving a job interview to a 7 year old) but they also greatly lack empathy and an understanding for how what they do impacts others, or being unable to understand that others have emotions. But it’s not just my peers, but a lot of people of varying ages, displaying this sociopathy. They do not care about the feelings of others nor understand that others have feelings as complex as their own. They lack self awareness in how they impact the world around them, and they only keep people around who make them feel good or serve them in some way.
I do NOT want to get political, but I can see this lack of self awareness and lack of critical thinking and also a severe lack of empathy and compassion bleed into politics. It’s like people put on blinders and anyone outside of their specific group is dehumanized. People lack compassion for entire groups or beliefs or types of people. There’s no empathy, and no mature conversations on dicey topics. Every tender political issue has its nuance, and people lack the emotional maturity to handle nuance.
I came up with a term, “pseudo-urban internet sociopathy”, based on how those in big cities test higher on sociopathy due to desensitization. They are constantly exposed to horrific crimes or rude people, so they will walk right by and not care if someone is being knifed in the street. I believe the internet is doing this on a larger scale.
The lack of emotional intellect that I see from a lot of people now is very scary. And I don’t know how it got this way.
I have a very difficult time trusting people because my trust has been broken time and time again, by everyone. But it’s not just literal trust (ie don’t tell my secrets). It’s also trusting they won’t hurt me, trusting them with vulnerability, trusting them to make the right choice. There’s very few people who I honestly trust their judgement and trust them as a person.
This is a long ramble, but I don’t think I’m alone in feeling this way. Anyone who’s watching this video certainly must feel how I do.
"To live ist the rarest thing in the world. Most people just exist". - Oscar Wile. Like you said they lack self awareness, so nobody is there. Most people are just automatons, reacting based upon external circumstances.
Perfectly said. I resonate with a lot of what you are talking about. I don't know if it's the rapid growth of technology in the past 20 years, in the disintegrating faith in institutions and our political system, or a combination of both.
What blows my mind is the lack of critical thinking skills. Like do they think that life is something that justs happens to them? How can we be better informed citizens and hold politicians accountable if we can't think critically about our bias, the bias of our news sources to make an educated decision?
My heart goes out to you and I wish you best of luck.
I think a couple of things have caused this decay in society. This is painted with a broad brush and more so generality.
1. The alternate reality created with social media and phones. People don’t have to talk with people anymore, they can preoccupy themselves with their phone.
2. An encouragement of hatred between the sexes and decay in values. Over the last 20 years:
a. divorce has been celebrated
b. Cheating is okay
c. Men don’t want adverse risk with divorce and women are encouraged to prioritize their careers over a family
d. When the tough gets going, hang up the cleats. The effort to work things out is just not there.
3. An major increase in tribalistic attitudes and less of an emphasis on independent thinking - people let their group form their beliefs for them. Social media has 10x’d this problem.
For things to get better, people need to learn how to enjoy what’s around them, not what they are reading on their phone. They need to experience and take chances. And they need to learn how to accept people for who they are and what they believe. And I have real trouble trusting others and being vulnerable because it’s easy to have these things used against you, but what is the consequence of never trusting and being vulnerable? Is it worse?
@@Sandy-ci6in The disintegration of faith in institutions and the political system is a result of critical thinking.
I think in large part, especially on the social skills side, a lot of our lack comes from the lack of involved, active parents. How to flirt, how to break up with a girl, that sort of thing is something a father would teach.
Really? When?
You don't think the fact that people have been blaming bad parenting for every social ill since the Golden Calf might make it a little less likely to be relevant to this particular iteration of social pathology?
Ghosting is horrendous! Especially when the relationship is >6 months. We need to stop this, its so torturous to recover from!
"On social media there's understanding nowhere and judgement everywhere."
Quotable quote of the day!
The problem is with people today, everybody is trying to get something out of you.
And most friendships feel one-sided
Late stage capitalism
We’ve made every facet of being human transactional.
@@blondie9422lolll suree.. more like late stage of socialism
@@JonathanVachon777we live in a capitalist society, zoning keeps communities picturesque and people isolated, small businesses run out of money and mega corps move in. even if you dislike socialism, this is a capitalist problem lol. my town runs on real estate and tourism alone, and no one leaves home in the off-season.
Social media has killed socializing, friendships and human compassion. Like most aspects of modern life... Everything is disposable including people. It's extremely sad, thankfully I grew up and established friendships before the existence of social media and technology dominating every moment of our consciousness.
Nah, it’s the lack of public spaces, and also everything is expensive and inaccessible.
I’m chronically online, and hell I have friends I go out and I live life.
But it’s different for everyone not everyone is you, some kids can’t go out because their parents forbid them. Some have horrible home lives, some are chronically ill or disabled, some are mentally ill and have a hard time living in a place where people might kill them, it’s just not cut and dry.
But free public activities would help tbh
I still have my social skills but it’s hard when everyone just trauma dumps and shares other people’s personal info like it’s fine. Nobody understands the value of quiet time and nobody is ok with just being alone for an hour or two. So they talk about nothing and dump things at inappropriate times, and flip out if you don’t answer their small talk text within 10 minutes. So it’s tiring.
Oh, can't agree more. Trauma porn. Narcissist society. Almost as if being an effed up human with more problems than the next is a badge of honour. I'd rather lock myself inside.
To establish a two-person household where one individual cares for the children, there are two prevailing scenarios: firstly, the individual may need to forgo their personal aspirations, or secondly, the act of nurturing children becomes their ultimate ambition. It is imperative to elevate the value of child-rearing, as presently, it often necessitates the presence of a dependable partner. Opting to stay at home often entails exiting the workforce and forfeiting retirement benefits. Many millennials have witnessed their mothers lose everything when their fathers departed from the family unit, leaving a lasting impact.
You know when you’re talking to someone and they hit the “❤” and the conversation is OVER. Probably the worst thing to happen to all of my friendships.
Why? Can't it be they don't know what to say?
@@Zzyzzyxif that’s the case it’s better to say so
You mean the heart react to a text? That seems like a good thing that keeps it going or builds mutual love, support, enthusiasm.
I know I personally always react with heart or emojis because sometimes it’s just a lot for me to extend any more of an answer. Most days thankfully I’m not like that.
@@anewagora No, say you open up a dialogue with someone through text or a DM and instead of engaging in the conversation they shut it down with the “❤️” it acknowledges you while at the same time shutting down the convo, kinda like when you’re talking to someone that’s not listening and they hit you with “that’s crazy” and the convo’s derailed. The “❤️” started on IG. People do it to get back to scrolling but now it happens through text too.
Privacy is necessary for civility in society.
We've completely given up our privacy. Parents no longer teach their children to be private. We put everything on social media. Our employers now demand access to our social media as a contingency of employment.
We have forgotten the concept of "Mind your own business."
Is this the solution to everything? No. But it's an easy starting point that seems like a worthwhile venture.
Not sure how much of a solution that would be, since Japan largely respects personal privacy while South Korea is quite invasive, yet they both still suffer similar rates of depression and suicide.
@@doujinflip SK is muuuuuch worse at those issues than Japan, though frankly I'd chalk it up to way more factors than just privacy
Religion with its promise of eternal personal gain, offers trinket morality. Most religions replace empathy with judgement of 'non believers'. There is little authentic love within religion.
Classical Eastern Christianity (aka original Christianity), the “religion” I’ve committed my life to, equates blessedness with humility and active love for all of humanity, including your enemy. Research St. Silouan or St. Isaac the Syrian.
I had 0 social skills even before social media. But sure now it's spreading to everyone and it's sad.
I'm tired of getting shamed for just trying to talk to people .
Ill take care to shame you for being such a pathetic incel 😊
Because you do not have nothing interesting to show, people do not want you because you know you are not worth it
@@soyuzinstrumentales7605 grow up
What i'm saying is that he has an insecure aura, and i am sorry but unleast u dont have a purpose in life or a million conections, you cannot hide your insecure aura, people know when you are like that and that is an inmediate ick.
@@soyuzinstrumentales7605i have an other theory. The society is getting godless. The are lost and crazy.
I joined a local non denominational church and it has been amazing. Genuinely kind people trying to live the values, who want to help others and focus on the local community.
That’s amazing. I hope it goes well for you. I’ve been thinking about finding some type of community for a while
same but a russian orthodox church instead
Congrats! I am looking to do the same :)
Yes, I would highly recommend getting involved in a small group there also. It definitely helps to get to know people on a more personal level, especially if it is a larger church. I've met a lot of interesting people that way. @@gbd-oq1rz
I’ve always been a loner (mostly because of my autism but also just extreme introversion combined with anxiety) so hearing that it’s becoming more common is comforting to me in a way, like it will make me feel less weird. That being said-I can see the problems with it and I really feel for my kids generation. I’m enjoying this podcast. It gives you a lot to think about.
Not gonna lie …this hit a core for me , not just the conversation but the fact how you display my home town Baltimore is crazy …I literally have ptsd from my family struggle through drugs and single family home all the down way from being homeless and living with other family members…as I’m past and overcame all that I will just say my teens through 20s was a big uphill battles
It depends on how you look at it because there are two general classes of social skills: Relating, and Manipulating.
People in general suck at relating because it's a sign of the times: Visual media predominates, modern life is too expensive, and the world is obsessed with image-based and money-based pecking orders due to the epidemic of malignant narcissism.
But, people are better than ever at manipulating each other, also as a result of the epidemic of malignant narcissism.
So, people's social skills are different now. They have not gotten worse--they have only changed and the ability to manipulate is probably more highly valued today than the ability to relate has ever been in human history.
precisely. people are survival machines first and foremost. people are trying to maximize something that they perceive to be in their better interests... it's not happenstance.
Huh, malignant narcissism?
wtf does a mental health disorder have to do with the loneliness epidemic???
Dude even if there was a rise it’d only be 5 million or so people out of 8 BILLION PEOPLE
The loneliness epidemic is affecting a billion-ish people how is that the fault of narcissists???
???? Genuinely huh????
I’d say it’s rich people tbh, and the lack of mental health services and support, and lack of public spaces and just there’s not enough free time to socialise anymore.
Why the hell are you blaming narcissists? People with NPD are like that because of childhood trauma and stuff.
It doesn’t make you evil, it just makes you HORRIBLE at social things, even then that’s something that’s fixed.
Idk what your talking about tbh.
One examples of communities that are supporting each other is cohousing-which I believe started in the Netherlands. Members own their own condo or townhouse with a common shared house also (large dining room, library, kids large playroom). There are over 100 of them in the USA now and more being developed. Members have regular jobs, kids can go to public school. Members do some things together like meals a few times a week or gardening. There are pros and cons. But, yes, there are groups trying to solve the isolation issue. Thanks to you Mark and your team. Also really like hearing what David Brooks has to say.
Sounds like a mini-commune. I think most of us would be happier in such a community.
Am living like this right now for 10 years.
I think most of the ones in the US are for seniors.
All Cuban villages and neighborhoods have community centers where they can get health care and other services. And, of course, stay connected with others in the community.
@@frequentlycynical642
The Cuban villages sound nice.
I lived in a cohousing community in Ca from age 40 to 46. There were many young families there. Most cohousing in the US is very mixed ages. A few are popping up for seniors only. I like seeing that. Hope there will be more.
I have two roommates and we all ignore each other 😅
I live in Indonesia, yes the downside is people will jump into your private life and sometimes critics your life but the pluses are they will always there if you need help or anything
"on social media there's understanding nowhere and judgement everywhere" exactly
Love that your videos get straight into it, and we don't have to mess around with skipping intros, sponsors etc. Refreshing.
This is so much appreciated!!
I can very much relate to what was discussed around the second mountain. I'm 45 and came to a place in my life where I climbed the ladder and experienced financial success. Once accomplished, it was quite jarring how empty it all felt, and it forced me to face some very hard truths about myself and meaning. I quit my job, and it's taken me over six months to come to grips with what the next mountain might look like. Service to others is most definitely a key component.
They also mention more single family homes and how trust is less to come buy from smaller families or lack of visiting families. Anyone else grow up with a mom who didnt respect your own privacy or not appreciate that you were a different individual from them or fail to look past her own mistake with who helped make you and love you unconditionally?
Everyone is starting to mention the issues, but with how deep my wounds go. It always feels like they are just skating on the surface of the collective issues. Looking down into the ice but not realizing thats so deep.
The comment about politics giving illusion of community and morality was brilliant. So true, and sad.
I ask people questions about themselves when I'm trying to connect with someone and skip boring small talk. A lot of the time people seem to feel pressured like they're being interviewed or something.
These trends have been happening for some time but the craziness of 2020 and the cerveza really amped up the social awkwardness big time. Kids not being in school for way too long, people scared to death of each other and seeing each other as "dirty", doing everything online, etc...
Social Media provides a framework to allow us to avoid life, just consume without participation.
Just look around everyone anywhere is heads down.
I suspect that if all our phones suddenly died, there'd be a population boom, an economic boom, less depression, etc.
Agreed.
@@Job.Well.Done_01the 90s called and they said that you are full of 💩. The trends were there before social media
No, I’d argue.
You have 0 idea how many people are alive because people on the internet cared.
ZERO IDEA, oh my god it’s like 100,000s of people if not more.
(I’ve actually helped like 30+ people you have NO IDEA how bad it is. It’s not because the internet made them depressed, it’s because no one in their actual lives cares. And they are desperate!)
The internet is both bad and good, like all things are.
You don’t say the same things about tv and newspapers and radio, you don’t say the same thing about books and writing.
There are many MANY frameworks to avoid human connection, and have been for the last 2000+ years!
I have found it EASIER to connect with people via online, not everyone does. But a lot of people have!
Not all of us can go out to public events and places, not all of us have safe home lives, there’s too much nuance and complexity to this discussion.
It’s not “technology and social media bad” it’s “we have no spaces around us other than the internet to share and make connections”
Both people who have greatly benefited form social media and people who have been negatively impacted by social media exist and acknowledging either is not invalidating the other.
The internet is only 30 years old, social media? IS BARELY EVEN 20 !
Everyone says this about this stuff, everyone was demonising tv for the last 40+ years now look! No one cares!
People said the same about phones and just so so many things.
I don’t think it’s the internet that’s the issue, it just exists!
The issue is how hostile and unfriendly it is to exist in public spaces now, there’s no benches, there’s no shade, it’s hot and everything is expensive.
There’s no where even cool or fun that’s cheap to go to anymore! It’s just lonely because it’s hard to go outside.
I don’t even blame the chronically online people people 9/10 times they are TRAUMATISED, life is not simple or cut and dry.
The internet is morally gray and people don’t like that, I love the internet and its culture and folklore.
But it’s different for people who didn’t grow up on it.
It's the economy, man. Literally half my family has died in their 40s and 50s from illnesses (alcoholism, depression, borderline and rapid-decline early-onset dementia) that came from exploitative labour and no work-life-balance, which disconnected them from other people. Why did they work themselves to the grave? Because they tried to survive. Yes, relationships are deteriorating and it's destroying us, but they are deteriorating because pure survival is dependent on an extremely unequal and exploitative economy.
Yes, there's no interpersonal curiosity, Americans want to talk about themselves, that was shocking coming from Europe. No interest in my life. In US, giving someone attention means not being one-up
The American dream is dead 🤣 gotta move to Japan
Most Americans are self absorbed. A big cultural mishap. Im more comfortable talking at people online than anything else
The oligarchs here have steered ordinary poorer Americans to behave in cutthroat and fearful ways toward each other, because oligarchs have gotten them to internalize the idea of a dog-eat-dog world. The saddest part is that most Americans do not even recognize the symptoms of internalized capitalism and who is making them behave like this.
@@christiansnaturestudio6599right, ‘cause hikikomori totally aren’t a thing.
@jcnot9712 I mean I'm used to be alone for so long but at same time I'm tired of it
Thank you both for this conversation! There’s so much here to unpack. I think we need to admit to ourselves that we’ve placed too much importance on the American values of independence and individualism and not nearly enough on community and service. David is totally right that life is about finding balance. The Western world places too much value on material means while only paying lip service to the value of relationships, then we all wonder why we’re not happy. We could learn so much from places like Ghana but usually all Westerners see is how poor they are materially. I’m sure they look at us and think how relationship poor we are.
Other countries, even developed ones that place emphasis on relationships, DEFINITELY see and understand how relationship poor we are when they come to visit and they do comment on it. I’ve witnessed it myself
Interesting how you mentioned Ghana specifically.
I’ll say something outrageous- the housewives franchise + Kardashians had a huge part in the cultural reset in society. Because of all their unnecessary drama, entitlement, gossip, spending, most people are now acting this way. People feel so entitled know personal details about you because gossip seems to be the only way to have conversation with others. Everyone always has to have an opinion about something with the need to broadcast it, when you don’t need to or just keep things to yourself. Keeping up with the Jones’ is hyper magnified through the show, social media and is fed to us everywhere.
Never underestimate the impact of having a deep conversation with a stranger. It is satisfying, meaningful and memorable. It can be the entry point for friendship or more. These days, if someone tells you that you are a good listener, it is a rare and powerful compliment.
I'm in my mid 40s and Australian. I've seen how isolated I've become the older I am and I do feel it has everything to do with the way society has slowly become less "communal". The pandemic didn't help matters at all if anything it further'ed the distrust and "othering" of people. Not to mention the rise of everyone becoming a journalist with a phone/camera/video in their pocket and able to post to social media (especially TT) without a thought to the impact that could have on someone because there is no nuance about the people involved only the footage... yup. Para social relationships are on the rise because of the loneliness. Basically, due to a lifetime of hurt some of it involving social media as well as no family (not really) and no real sense of community anywhere for me I am one of those people who will be home alone, touch starved, conversation starved because I live alone too ... and due to working virtually/online... I can easily go weeks without any real connection to another. My social anxiety has only become worse. Anyway, I am writing this mostly because I wanted to show others that it's beyond just USA also because older people aren't spoken about and their isolation too a lot.
You’re cute
The main problem I have with marriage is you are always two separate people so its a big risk because there is no way of determining that you’ll stay together. Again and again, now I’m in my late 40’s I’ve seen people destroyed by or even become indifferent to their marriage. I don’t see hardly any long term (10 years plus) happy marriages. And cheating is rife - especially with social media
Mark, thank you for another great episode. I am so happy you started to do this podcast. Most of your conversations have a depth of clarity and a mature vulnerability that is very valuable. It has all the hallmarks of a second mountain project - you giving back your experiences after first flying high and now from a more sober and wise perspective.
Totally agreed with you.
He's also inclusive
Some people are supposedly 'born manipulators' and others are born with genuinely good (above average) interpersonal skills. Emotional empathy could actually be an inherited personality trait OR a talent some people naturally possess. Some people just know HOW to talk to others and they're being completely genuinely compassionate, but maybe these people just have a talent for it. Like any other inherited talent, such as creative writing or having an ear for music, maybe emotional empathy and good interpersonal skills are actually TALENTS.
Like your comment. Your message reminds me of some conversations my wife (35) and I (37) have had. Empathy/friendlieness is a learned skill, and it is not taught in schools or universities in the US. However it can be learned from "healthy" parenting or role models. But at least in many parts here in the US, there is very little influence on local role models (friendly neighbor, brother, sister,town mayor, etc.) Many of my peers friends grew up thinking they need to be like so & so celebrity and make bookoo bucks, then even more people will love them. But unfortunatly they were all just teenagers over identifying with a celebrity, and grew up losing their natural empathy and lacking realistic interpersonal skills. But this is just my opinion and experience, but I do kind of agree that it is a talent or skill that may need to be taught or re-invented IMO.
They definitely are. And as most talents, they can still be taught to others
@@popovicjovan Question: Which do YOU think is easier to teach then - manipulation (malicious intent) OR GENUINELY tactful and compassionate responses to nearly everyone? Just curious..
@@mandogundam5779 I think both parents AND elementary schools NEED to start "teaching empathy" at an early age... otherwise they're never gonna learn it. They'll just have their innate personality traits to rely on. And as we've ALL seen, in elementary schools and JR high, especially, kids CAN be brutally honest and they don't even realize they're hurting others. They're naturally self-absorbed at that time and don't think ahead to possible consequences for their words or behavior! Obviously, this isn't good if ALL someone gets is negative and spiteful feedback IRL. They're more likely to grow up hard, cold, mean, manipulative, abusive, sociopathic, etc..
I have to admit I'm grateful I've grown up in a metropolitan area where kids and adults are blunt and open and likely to be honest about their perceptions of others IRL. We all take in both positive AND negative feedback growing up and in adulthood, and that helps us in learning HOW to deal with ALL types of people - especially DIFFICULT people who'll never change. I'm NOT saying everyone should live near big cities, but I do believe it's an excellent environment to learn empathy... especially public schools. Generally, whatever kids pick up in school they project onto others... At least, that's the way it used to be. Social media may be influencing them more than anything else during this period - unless their parents are STRONG influential role models for them and are there when they truly need them.
Hi Mark... Damn, years after me taking advice from you in college (to go and overload my courses, and save money) I am still here. Cheers! (edit: it was circa 2014, a decade ago!)
What extra courses did you take?
@@AnnaKhKem I just loaded up from 18 max to 25 credits, by writing to the dept chair, asking for a permission which was approved.
Just asking... is it a compliment or a critic ?
Mostly AI and npc
Loved it. Lot of great points discussed. Only point that I would like to add here as an "Easterner" is that our societies too are also facing similar problems discussed above, may be not at the extent the west is facing but it has plagued for sure. Learning how to tackle them at individual and collective level makes is highly relatable to hear and understand.
I can think of few things more nightmarish than having to rely on my family. That fear of ‘exploitation’ people saw in the kids doesn’t happen in a vacuum and is more common than people are comfortable with helping them believe.
I’d rather take my chances with my neighbors or even strangers. Less chance of being shamed for needing help in the first place , less chance of them holding it over my head forever, and zero chance of a constant stream of negativity being poured into my ear.
I learned in adulthood: I actually don’t mind socializing. But I don’t need to like socializing with everyone.
I always wondered why basic social skills went down hill.
I just finished your book "The subtle art of not giving a fvck" and it literally changed me for real, everything..❤
Awesome i want to read it
Thank you Mark, David and everyone involved in making this brilliant Podcast episode!
Sitting here staring at my unfinished Bowling Alone on my book shelf, and Putnam talked about some of this back in 1995-2000.
He mentioned there being a loss of communal gatherings and meet ups as a source of loneliness, and this was before the internet was in every household.
Similar to what Brooks mentioned here about the Aggressive Friendship, getting people out there, gatherings, community.
Interesting to hear about the illusory community of politics, making me think of sports team fans....
Luckily views on mental health has changed recently, people are actually willingly going to therapy now, which was unheard of like 20-30 years ago.
Great bit of discourse in this vid!
"In Israel, if I was screaming my kid's name, everybody would be out of the house in their pajamas searching for my kid"
I like this. I live in an apartment complex and I think it's weird that when someone screams you're just expected to mind your own business
I heard a loud scream outside my house last night and peeked outside but seen nothing and heard no one. I wasnt sure what else to do or where it came from and had no one else to ask. I didnt hear another scream, i just hope whoever it was was ok 😢
It’s sad to see the state of society these days fr. This video is very reassuring and informational. Glad other people worry about this too.
I do blame the time we spend on screens and devices to feel better instead of communities activities and socialising for the way things are
On social media, people are less afraid to be rude because they don’t get called out and are even encouraged because of the ‘likes’ they get. Social media rewards bad behavior maybe because on screen,some may find it entertaining?
Once we establish that many of us don't have social skills, how do we break the cycle of miscommunication? I'm past my prime and I see that most people prefer superficial conversations. If you get too deep, they get uncomfortable. Rarely do I come across an American who is willing to engage in conversation, something other than "what do you do..." "you have an accent"...
We talk a lot about racism, sexism, trauma, bullying, etc. in a casual way because it's happening 'to others.' (?) Still, In the great US of A, poking fun of others who are different is seen as something natural, as part of 'our' culture. Are we surprised that people of this generation are more cruel and insensitive?
Thank you David, Mark, et al. David, I listened to your NPR segment on Fridays around 5:30 for a decade.. my first occupational idea was to work for a think tank.. so props to you.
THIS is the podcast I needed. Thank you very much for all you’re doing, especially this episode.
I LOVE the idea of having a weekly picnic on my front lawn with neighbors. Now I just need the front yard...
Just finished reading “How to Know Someone” and it was good and worth finishing.
P.S., my child is a senior at SAS in Austin
This is exactly what I needed to hear - and experience in this conversation. I HAVE had my hard period of surviving a long illness (ending in organ transplant) along with the suffering in the hospital - also losing all the "things" that had held me together in my life - you know, home, neighborhood, car, a couple pension funds - BUT having turned into a writer. I NEED Second Mountain now - and checked the audiobook out of Denver Public Library! And therapy was not enough. I lost community during pandemic too. Thank you thank you thank you, Mark Manson and David Brooks!!! Dana Bennett
Oh my god! Similar thing happened in my case... Just because of my diagnosis with cancer all of a sudden (it was during pandemic)....i lost everything.....My confidence my optimistic attitude.... Even people around me... They pity me.... They feel uncomfortable around me now... I don't know how to deal with all of this... Now i want to be just alone.....even lost my career.... lost my pace with this fast moving world..... Now i would have to make extra efforts to make everything as it was
29:40 "Politics is a competition between partial truths."
🚨 Best way I've ever heard that said.
We’re just addicted to our devices. You know how hard it is to talk to someone that doesn’t look back at you? I swear, when I have kids I’m not giving them a single personal device until late middle school.
Mark Manson's podcast help me to think critically while doing basic chores. Thank you!
FANTASTIC INTERVIEW!!! I’m a huge fan of you both for a long time now; I’m psyched you got David Brooks on. Please keep up the great work 🎉
I appreciate your work a lot, Mark. I can feel that you care and love people, so it is a pleasure to learn from your experience.
I think marriage may be more important than money but at the same time if you don’t have money there’s a high chance that marriage isn’t going to work.
Fake it till you make it!
It is common sense, simply. When people say “we’re more connected than ever“ that’s a fallacy because talking into a phone typing letters and numbers into a phone is not connected when you were standing in front of another human being you can see facial expressions, you can hear tone and inflection, you can see body language that is connected. Very simply. This is why.
This has been one of the greatest episodes since the beginning of the podcast for me. The topic resonates so much with me.
This is one of my favourite conversations I’ve heard in a while… Really important topics here, discussed with warmth, fascinating insight, and nuance.
Amazing podcast! Love how indirectly humble David is.
I love listening to your podcasts. They're so to the point and down to Earth.
Distrust issues start in childhood, with unreliable, traumatizing parents.
That is true for every generation yet older gens still cultivated socialization skills.
In older generations, even if both of your parents were unavailable/traumatizing, chances were good you still had SIBLINGS you could at least have face to face conversation with, and develop some semblance of social interaction skills.
I have heard that in some Asian cultures, the entire concept of Aunt and Uncle are soon to be extinct... Because it has been a generation (or 2) since the average citizen even HAD a sibling.
Victim mindset.
@@livestock9722 You have comprehension issues.
@@alexxx4434 Thank you. Thank you very much.
An excellent summary of the importance of community. Thanks for sharing
Mark Your podcast is so good it reminds me of the andrew huberman one but more into skills its so good to hear you since I am able to use some of this to help with my channell
I love listening to Mark, but not Huberman at all. They are very different.
Right on the money, Huberman-grade podcast. Need more people like these two.
Pre-pandemic it was already meh
Post-pandemic it got even WORSE.
The difference is, they proud of their poor social skills now and call it selfcare, setting boundaries. .. when some of them just straight up sukk at it!
Wow. What a great podcast. Such a good conversation on some important topics. Really made me think and answered some questions I have been thinking about. Thank you both.
Yes, definitely suffering will find you in life. I am not sure many look for it (no one wants to suffer) but be aware. In suffering, it helps you grow and appreciate happier times. I think also it helps us reflect on the happiest of moments (past) that push us into hope (for future).
On a theological aspect hope is what drives us forward ❤.
Most of the time, you bring out the better in people when you lead with trust.
STATEMENT OF THE YEAR!
For what it is worth Mark, This is exactly what I needed to hear right now. Now I just need to figure out what to do about it. Love your content! (Long time follower and zero fucks club member)
Mark, I'm your number one fan from Ghana.
This was a very brilliant conversation. Thanks again Mark!
This covered so much of what I’ve been feeling recently, just bought the second mountain! Great stuff as always
amazing interview - thank you Mark & David Brooks!
Not all kids being brought up by “two-parent home” are happy or well educated. It all depends on the environment and the intellect of the parents.
Tendencies and trends are great guidelines, but you're correct in that they're not absolute.
The vast moajority are the satistics dont lie.
Thank you Mark for this podcast. You’re a beacon of hope In this dark world. David Brooks is a national treasure , and hearing you both on this episode absolutely made my day. Keep it up sir, you are also a national treasure and we need you !!
You have to be fucking kidding me. You can't honestly be serious. There is no fucking way you are literally, honestly serious.
We're so very, very fucked. This planet is toast.
Excellent discussion on a crucial topic with two brilliant and open minds sharing insight. What I love is you two demonstrate an authentic and exploratory way to navigate this topic, opposite of the judgmental tone mentioned on social media. And all with actual connection.
We need more videos and discussions like this.
I've been socially isolated for 47 years.
My social skills are actually improving 😅
Ooo, you've published more 🤩
i love seeing David thank you for inviting him in the podcast his books are captivating very very
I am a single parent. My ex and I have a very solid agreement that draws boundaries to protect our personal mental health and provide the most ideal upbringing for our kid. We live 10 minutes apart, communicate frequently and effectively, share time and resources (instead of draining one another), but our relationship doesn't extend past the best interest of our daughter. What I discovered when we initially split was how horrible our culture is about shaping healthy coparenting efforts. Instead, people are justifying using their children to hurt their exes, validated by social media. It is possible for a kid to have a very healthy childhood when their parents are split if both parents are invested in raising that child to their best ability but our culture is enabling toxic behaviors where parents are hanging onto grudges instead of sucking it up as an adult should and doing what is best for their children.
I look at it as a maturity crisis. Thanks to online life most people aren't exposed to the negative stimuli that would further maturity. People chase things that let them mitigate personal insecurity, and today the tools available to do so are abundant.
Social animal changed so much for me... What a pleasure to see Brooks here !!
I love your work mark
Thanks as always
You're changing lives
Just started davids book at the turn of th year, what a great coincidence to listen to yall tonight. Helped get my dishes partially done
The values of kindness, gentleness, and willingness to be vulnerable are considered adversarial to the social construct built on enslavement, thievery, and genocide
Great comment. You said what I intuited, but hadn't articulated.
This is a fantastic conversation.
Agreed, wonderful to hear some intelligent people share thoughts in a civil way. Sadly that also has become rare nowadays.