Thanks for the tips! Most of the heat treatment knowledge on these videos was gained before your book came out, and there was no real source of what was actually going on. You would read one thing from a supposedly reputable source (places that sold the steel perhaps), and then read something else contradictory somewhere else. I still hear people say to only heat treat during a full moon🙄 So thanks for the book and knowledge gained👍 Id like to hear your thoughts on a video i did following your heat treatment protocol for 1084 and comparing that to purposefully bad heat treatments at the same rc hardness. Anyway, thanks for writing the book its really helped👍
It can feel unfair sometimes when a person critiques an older video. I know you've been working hard to learn and continue to improve your content which is all any of us can do. I will check out the new video!
@@tacticalcenter8658 Most of this was contradictory to larrins heat treatment. Most of Cashens recipes are not the best approach according to Larrin. This sorta proves my point. Even crucibles recipe for cpm3v was different than what many knife makers were doing claiming mythical results. You can scroll down the comment section here and see other people asking whether certain abs master smith recipes are correct, further making my point.👍
@@OUTDOORS55 Well said, and kudos to you on your etiquette. The rabbit hole goes deep. As a fellow explorer trying to locate the bottom: "I feel you, bro".
Dr. Larin, I bought your book Knifemaking Engineering (Excellent, anybody who is making knifes should read.) I have watched dozens of YT videos from YT knife makers. I am not ignorant it the subject of heat treatment and working with metal. I am a retired Marine Engineer. I have felt that most of the YT knife makers are quite ignorant on the subject of heat treating there blades. This week I forged 3 blades from 52100 material, today I heat treated the blades as per your suggested recipe for 52100. This worked perfect, the blades are about 62 Rc seem to be stout and hopefully tough. There was zero scale (wrapped in St/St foil) and zero warpage. I am sure they will take a very sharp edge and be a tough blade. Thank you for your great videos and research you do in the area metallurgy. I hope to make some blades from Magna Cut one day. Well done keep up the great work.
Everybody caters to knife makers. Chisels and hammers are pretty cool too guys so could someone make a book for us lowly tool makers? I promise all five of us will buy it. Seriously though, Doc you rock! I have been confused as crap on this heat treating thing since everyone kinda does what they were taught instead of what is right. I look forward to getting your book and hopefully applying what I learn to my future projects. Thanks for making my world a bit better by sharing your knowledge.
Chisels are more useful for my line of work anyway, I've made more chisels, scrapers and pry tools than knives. Still working on getting the heat treating part down, but the nice part about chisels is they're quick and easy to make and you don't have to get them perfect, at least for what I use them for, I'm gonna beat the brakes off them and need a replacement eventually no matter what
I love making tools. My wife wanted me to get into woodworking, so first I forged a set of wood gouges and knives. Just to prove that metal work is better. I pretty much sleep in my shop now.
Honestly a lot of his research does apply to chisels, he does tend to focus on the high alloy steels but there’s still a lot of articles and numbers for stuff like s-7 and such
@@tristanphillips8937 quite correct and most methods hold true for any cutting edge forged to a specific purpose. I was teasing knife makers more than anything just because there are so many. Everyone has to make a knife video to be relevant even John Switzer has made some due to overwhelming requests. I am the only person I know who got into forging specifically for chisels so my comment was a bit tongue in cheek even if it was lost in the text.
Thanks for making more stuff for us to rewatch and study, Mr Thomas. You are a backbone of this community in many ways and a reference for the rest of us that have interest, but don’t work in your profession. This is good for the rest of us. Thank you. Great stuff.
More videos like this, please, please and thank you! I like hearing you react to these other creators methods, I'll listen and hear them and think "that makes sense" then you suddenly correct them and I think to myself, "that makes more sense", appreciate the video, old but gold. 🙏🏻
Great video! This was my biggest concern going into knife making, there was so much theory and marketing but very few really well documented sources, I am an engineer and really wanted datasheets and hard evidence. Your publishing has been such a well needed reality check to the knife community, so Thank you!
Thanks for the overview man. When I made that video 3 years ago the intention was to compile the “best practices” I found on bladeforums. With the intention of easily getting a beginner started. The knives I’ve made and tested with those methods performed pretty darn good, so that’s a plus! But I guess they could have been better! I’m curious about annealing. Is it needed on stock removal knives? (When you start with annealed stock?) I think it could be cool for us to do a “re-make” of this old video as a colab! Cheers
@@KnifeSteelNerds You guys could compare knives previously made or being made with his current methods by Red Beard Ops and test the differences with the fine tuning done with a new blade. Or with multiple new blades, ya know, for sample size purposes.
A fellow metallurgist here. I work in a fairly large carburizing heat treat department. I agree with your comments about 13:00 in on the thermo cycling. The grain size change that occurs during the normalize cycle is mostly accomplished with the first normalize and with the subsequent quench. The lower temp reheats are going to affect the carbide vs retained austenite structure. In my business, we want retained austenite instead of carbides, so we quench from a higher temp and try to stay out of the carbide forming temps for extended periods of time. On the quench oil at about 13:45. The temp of the quench oil is important for the quench speed. We want the oil at the correct viscosity so it will carry away the heat at the required speed. Cold oil is not going to quench as well or as evenly. Uneven quenching leads to distortion.
Based on what I've learned I bit the bullet and now do my HT in an Evenheat and then use Parks 50, following the datasheets on each steel. I've learned the hard way that I can't take cheap shortcuts and expect to get the most out of the steel. Thanks for sharing your expertise, and yes, I'm reading your book for the second time!
I was okay with whatever critiques outdoor55 might get because his content has a lot of entertainment value. When he said Walter was up next, I was sweaty his evaluation. Especially when he called him crazy at 18:02 lol. Something about Walter’s knowledge and delivery makes him my go to source of information.
I used to weld and have some basic metalworking knowledge and wow was I in the stone age. Somehow never really thought about this area of science, which is surprising because I love metal and enjoy spectating science. Before your videos I guess I sort of just had a slightly magical mindset to how it all works to put it simply. However, reading the comments though I'm kind of shocked to find this sort of info is new to the top pros in the field too. It seems I'm not alone in still looking at this with sort of an iron age mysticism lol. Glad the fields are merging. Thanks for your videos, you rock.
There is a lot of miss information on the internet . That is why i follow people like yourself ! I do all my heat treatment in an oven , following time and heat guidelines . When i forge a piece of steel , i might do one normalizing cycle in the forge before going to the oven . Being colorblind makes me very cautious as i can not trust my eyes. The information you have given me , both in your book and in private messages , have been absolutely spot on every time
Finally a nerd I can understand about steel. I don't know a lot about heat treating (stages of crystalization I understand). When I saw your vid on the subject I needed to take a look. You showed all the failures I've seen before in these types of vids and pointed them out. (We aren't in the realm of metal magic anymore. Use a temp gauge or stick.) Now I'm off to watch you do it right. (I'm a knife nerd but have never made them. I can tell you about the things you speak of about the metal stages and why they fail when looking at the metal.) Thanks for sticking to the science of it.
I'm 62 , been fascinated with knives since I watched my dad sharpened buck knives on arkansas stones . Read a lot of articles over the years . I've watched how the frontier of steel science is being constantly pushed forward. It's amazing how changing the steel ingredients or playing with the heat treat can have such profound effects . For me , it's mind numbing complexity but that's why I find this so fascinating. Love how you make these issues easier for others to understand. Only a teacher who loves learning will understand.
Never say you aren't crazy. Walter is a good dude. He doesn't get super technical but he is a good teacher and seems like he would be fun to have a beer with.
I love Walter Sorrell's videos. He was just trying to give someone a very basic introduction to hardening knives and he did a reasonably good job of that. It's not always easy to explain complicated issues in simple terms. And yes, never say you aren't crazy, just run with it - sort of like Steven the Irishman from Braveheart, lol.
@@scottvines4093 Being able to explain complicated issues in simple terms is one of the biggest things that show someone actually understands the concept instead of just regurgitating something they read.
I've seen guys do the heat treat process with fire and I have to say there is definatly an art form to it both with coal and gas. Having that oven can make the process more exact with much better overal results but for guys just getting into it and working with simple steels like 1084 it's a great way to get your feet wet without spending lots of cash. Always fun learning about metallurgy and and how it applies to the knife world. Thanks for the great vid and keep making sharp things fun and enjoyable
45 years ago I worked with an old blacksmith in Thailand. Nothing fancy but he beat old truck springs into working knives. Charcoal forge, edge hardened in water. He made good stuff and was very particular in what he did. He was very careful about the quenching and tempering, All was done in a continuous manner after heating. I wish I could go back to that time as I've learned a lot since then.
Thank you for making this video! There is a lot of unnecessary steps and myth in knife making and forging. You have help us eliminate a lot of unnecessary things that we have to do.
You can't go wrong by watching any of Walter Sorrell's videos. I don't agree with him 100 per cent on everything but nobody does- get 5 smiths in a room and you'll get 6 opinions. The man has a solid knowledge base and is good with sharing it.
Fascinating breakdown from the perspective of someone unfamiliar with the process. Very much appreciate the knowledge given and the corrections being nicely done rather than brutal. Thanks for sharing and thank you for Magnacut!
Thats why I dont trust custom makers who have no idea what they're doing and I prefer engineered mass produced knives. Thanks, Mr. Magnacut, you confirmed my suspicions.
Though custom makers that do know what they're doing, partly in thanks to Larrin, can make better knives with better heat treatments than the batch vacuum furnace heat treatment that varies by like.. 2 points. That's like 57 to 59 HRC on something like 12c27m that can get up to 62 pretty well and more than tough enough there, 14c28n is even better.
Wax sticks! Haven't heard about them in a long time. They were also used to determine the air fuel mixture on cars or motorcycles by using the exhaust header temperature using wax sticks. Have only be shown once in 2006 by a Volvo technician in his mid 60's. Absolutely fantastic to watch and learn.
I recently commented on one of your posts that I bought 2 Magnacut blanks, and I did mention I plan to have Peter's Heat Treating to the HT, which is really a general term that seems to be used as it includes annealing and tempering. In the past when I HT in a forge I stick the blade in coal ashes to slow the cooling process. I have never done it more than once though, and I also was taught that after dunking in oil, I put it back in the forge and let it burn the oil off and allow the flame to go out, then finally bury it in coal ashes. I have some old coil springs (5160 ???) and O1 I've used this process using transmission fluid. Probably not the best but what I was taught by my smithy mentor. What I wanted to point out here is that it's worth the cost to have a professional heat treater like Peter's Heat Treating to do it for you. It also requires a computer controlled oven to do it properly, and the cost of a single blade is quite a bit less...with all that said, I have seen most of these videos you annotate and it is the reason I come to the conclusion to let a professional HT for me. I have only done HT on high carbon, and stainless is yet another story.
One caution on DIYeasycrafts, he states take it past cherry red and it pulls the blade out it's just about white...one thing I have learned the hardway in a coal forge is that there's a very narrow window between cherry red and white and once it goes white your blade can vaporize at any time...🙄
Dr Larin Thomas, I'm a huge knife steel enthusiast, I totally appreciate your in depth metallurgy knowledge 👍 😀 thank you sir 👍 🙋♂️ please keep educating us knowledge thirsty knife enthusiasts. 🔪 you the man buddy 🙌 👏 💪 👍 👌
I think the fact that I watch this video and was entertained and it had my complete attention for the entire thing means i might be a little bit crazy myself 🤣🤣🤣 I can't get enough of this knife heat treating stuff I watched a video just the other day done by (Nat from the intent) on and experiment with quenching knives in liquid nitrogen it's fascinating all the ins-and-outs of heat treating steel. Love the video keep it up 👍
I recognized inconsistencies with various methods early in my online quest for knowledge, and then promptly purchased your book. So far so good kind sir. Thank you for your contributions to the world of metallurgy; particularly within the knife community. Side-note: I’m looking forward to getting my hands on some Magnacut. 😁
Crazy, I was reading your book on this topic just last night and then I saw this video today - thank you for taking your time share your knowledge and do all of this.
Hello Larrin! Thank you for your critiques on the various OPINIONS of heat treatments out in the wild, so-to-speak, on YT. I just ordered your book from Amazon and am looking forward to reading it and using it as a reference in the future. I spent my entire career working around steel (hot rolled JAC270F - 45/45) and heavy die tooling for a major automotive manufacturer, and am just getting into forging and knifemaking. I think the errors, albeit with good intentions, of the various YT creators is quite commonplace when it comes to science and math concepts. Objective facts surrounding forging, annealing, normalizing, austenitization / quenching, etc. of many well-intentioned smiths and knifemakers think that how they FEEL about something, while ignoring objective facts regarding material properties, is somehow germane to the discussion. It is not, and I have learned to immediately hit my browser's 'back' button when something they say is incorrect. People need to understand that the "works-for-me" or "good enough" approach may get close to the actual result, but in no way can be emperically verified. I REALLY have a problem with this, but YT is what it is. Thanks for your content and hard work!
Very helpful information. Even though I have no plans to make knives myself it is very worthwhile to have a better understanding of the basics. Thank you.
Most TH-cam content creators are not highly educated. I have to take what they claim with much skepticism. Is nice to actually have someone with a PhD dispersing the myth.
Internet Raid siren going off TH-cam knife makers: "Oh lawd he coming!" I'd agree with the colour and heat guessing, mostly because you look at some of these shops with a $3-5000 grinder, $1000 in the anvil and hammers, presses and power hammers worth a 2nd hand car, hundreds into the forge- but at some point most of them missed the simplest and quite cheap option of a about $80 will get you are really good digital thermometer and some spare thermocouples you can just run into the region your heating at. Plus, just as someone who did adult ed in the radio-engineering part of commercial business for a long time, stop staring at really strong emitters of infrared radiation sources- fire is cool, yes it really is but don't stare into the forge too much up close without some eye protection.
I really enjoyed this! I’ve always enjoyed your very matter of fact approach and reaction to things and this video certainly helps showcase it! That said, your well placed sarcasm always gets me, “Framing hammer for straightening, nice.”
Great video! Thanks for the clarification on many points! Thanks for referring us back to things like the data sheet and specs and tests instead of feelings and less reliable methods!
I have really enjoyed this video because if you read the comment section you will gain even more knowledge thank you for sharing your wisdom with us all godbless and be safe.
Love the video Oh I would like to see more videos like this keep calling out misinformation you did this in a nice way to but got your point across thank you. I kept waiting watching the video thinking one of my misinformation videos would pop up 😂
Great video always fascinating to see how even though certain amount of experience is necessary for progress in any given craft without proper knowledge and keeping an open mind to new information you will only regress .
Some just over think it I been building knives for very very long time only ever had a few mishaps all the video's are the basic idea trial and error is the best way to learn
I use the "shadows" in the steel that dissappears when the autenizing occurs. Along with the color. And just leave it for about one minute or so to fully dissolve the carbides before quenching.
"it has a lot of views so it must be good" That's the kind of sarcasm thats inevitable when listening to people explain something you understand far better than them!
I'll have to listen to this a few more times, but Thank You very much for this information. I know little to nothing, but this interesting. Where I need to saw mo.
A question from a commercial heat treater: Why the thermal cycling? Especially thermal cycling ending with a spherodize anneal. I agree with normalizing, in my experience a normalized structure is the best structure to have prior to austenitizing in order to contribute to uniform transformation and fine grain size. Spherodizing was only used as an anneal for severe forming and any material that had been spherodized annealed was always normalized prior to hardening. I'm familiar with aerospace and industrial applications with alloy steels, super alloys and tool steels. In fact, military and international standards specifying heat treat procedures specify that most alloys, intended for critical applications, be in the normalized and tempered condition prior to austenitizing.
Would love to see a video about nodule formation in Martensite during tempering, including differences between diffusion, precipitation, etc, etc... Thanks!
I find people understand solubility when it comes to sugar and salt in the kitchen. I have been comparing heat treatment to how some eliminates will begin to change before something melts. It seems like people kinda get it.
Have you done any videos in which you discuss the heat treatment (i.e. process, pros, cons) of the cutting edge, alone, such as they do with saws? Also, have you done any heat treatments using induction instead of a forge/oven?
If I have one piece of advice, it's this: get a high temp thermocouple for your forge. Not everyone has the money or space for a kiln. A k-type thermocouple and reader can be had for $50 and it makes a world of difference. If you control the temperature on your forge (just turn your propane pressure down), you can get a really good heat treatment. And buy Larrin's book. I did.
Larrin,....my apologies, DR. Larrin, you are the fuckin man!!!! I swear, you must have some German in you because you're fuckin awesome. I appreciate everything you do and have done. Big thanks to your pops and the world is gonna need at least about 5 sons from you, so you better be spreading your seed.
I have some heat treat vids in my playl-ists also in my about tab there is a link to some of the same vids but also some PDFs. Its a work in progress and don't have all the time in the world. I would prefer videos to include developing and testing a protocol with test coupons. But most makers just want to get a protocol from a forum or book or whatever source and assume its good for their application.
This interests me . I actually understood some of this. For me , it’s fun to try to make things as perfect as possible by doing the processes as perfect as possible . Learned from construction that one screw up not addressed will make for more problems down the road . Thanks for sharing 😊
When I was a newb quenching 1080/1084 I would do material reduction grinding knife upto 95% complete from mill stock then heat for 5 minutes non magnetic and stab it into a stainless oil cup full of hot canola probably over 160° and go shake shake shake maybe 2 seconds then stab it into a 5gal of water for a faster quench and shake shake shake for maybe 10 more seconds or so then into 2/400°f cycles at 1 hour each and air cool to room temp then run under cold water and put into the freezer for 1 hour in between the 1 hour tempers at 400° which in hindsight I’m sure the hour in the freezer did nothing most likely... or absolutely 🤣
You need to consider that some of these videos are from hobbyists and are geared toward hobbyists that don't have the funds for a making only a few blades. You should do a series geared toward that guy that doesn't want to spend a lot to make a few blades, I would be very interested in that and so would others.
Very informative video.. got some questions though. What is the difference between normalizing and annealing, and blades really need both or not. Thanks.
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Thanks for the tips! Most of the heat treatment knowledge on these videos was gained before your book came out, and there was no real source of what was actually going on. You would read one thing from a supposedly reputable source (places that sold the steel perhaps), and then read something else contradictory somewhere else. I still hear people say to only heat treat during a full moon🙄 So thanks for the book and knowledge gained👍 Id like to hear your thoughts on a video i did following your heat treatment protocol for 1084 and comparing that to purposefully bad heat treatments at the same rc hardness. Anyway, thanks for writing the book its really helped👍
It can feel unfair sometimes when a person critiques an older video. I know you've been working hard to learn and continue to improve your content which is all any of us can do. I will check out the new video!
The correct information has been around for years. Larrin is another source among several correct sources to learn from.
@@tacticalcenter8658 Most of this was contradictory to larrins heat treatment. Most of Cashens recipes are not the best approach according to Larrin. This sorta proves my point. Even crucibles recipe for cpm3v was different than what many knife makers were doing claiming mythical results. You can scroll down the comment section here and see other people asking whether certain abs master smith recipes are correct, further making my point.👍
@@OUTDOORS55 Well said, and kudos to you on your etiquette. The rabbit hole goes deep. As a fellow explorer trying to locate the bottom: "I feel you, bro".
OUTDOORS55 most addicting channel on youtube!
i just hope you make more videos!
“Metallurgist reacts” is a great concept 👍🏻
100%
Dr. Larin, I bought your book Knifemaking Engineering (Excellent, anybody who is making knifes should read.) I have watched dozens of YT videos from YT knife makers. I am not ignorant it the subject of heat treatment and working with metal. I am a retired Marine Engineer. I have felt that most of the YT knife makers are quite ignorant on the subject of heat treating there blades. This week I forged 3 blades from 52100 material, today I heat treated the blades as per your suggested recipe for 52100. This worked perfect, the blades are about 62 Rc seem to be stout and hopefully tough. There was zero scale (wrapped in St/St foil) and zero warpage. I am sure they will take a very sharp edge and be a tough blade. Thank you for your great videos and research you do in the area metallurgy. I hope to make some blades from Magna Cut one day. Well done keep up the great work.
Everybody caters to knife makers. Chisels and hammers are pretty cool too guys so could someone make a book for us lowly tool makers? I promise all five of us will buy it.
Seriously though, Doc you rock! I have been confused as crap on this heat treating thing since everyone kinda does what they were taught instead of what is right. I look forward to getting your book and hopefully applying what I learn to my future projects. Thanks for making my world a bit better by sharing your knowledge.
Chisels are more useful for my line of work anyway, I've made more chisels, scrapers and pry tools than knives. Still working on getting the heat treating part down, but the nice part about chisels is they're quick and easy to make and you don't have to get them perfect, at least for what I use them for, I'm gonna beat the brakes off them and need a replacement eventually no matter what
I love making tools. My wife wanted me to get into woodworking, so first I forged a set of wood gouges and knives. Just to prove that metal work is better. I pretty much sleep in my shop now.
Honestly a lot of his research does apply to chisels, he does tend to focus on the high alloy steels but there’s still a lot of articles and numbers for stuff like s-7 and such
@@tristanphillips8937 quite correct and most methods hold true for any cutting edge forged to a specific purpose. I was teasing knife makers more than anything just because there are so many. Everyone has to make a knife video to be relevant even John Switzer has made some due to overwhelming requests. I am the only person I know who got into forging specifically for chisels so my comment was a bit tongue in cheek even if it was lost in the text.
Pshh chisels and hammers. I harden my own watch springs with arcane magic and rat bones
18:00 “I’m not crazy”!
That made me laugh. My wife just glanced at me, gave me this look.
Lol😂.
Thanks for making more stuff for us to rewatch and study, Mr Thomas. You are a backbone of this community in many ways and a reference for the rest of us that have interest, but don’t work in your profession. This is good for the rest of us. Thank you. Great stuff.
More videos like this, please, please and thank you! I like hearing you react to these other creators methods, I'll listen and hear them and think "that makes sense" then you suddenly correct them and I think to myself, "that makes more sense", appreciate the video, old but gold. 🙏🏻
Great video! This was my biggest concern going into knife making, there was so much theory and marketing but very few really well documented sources, I am an engineer and really wanted datasheets and hard evidence. Your publishing has been such a well needed reality check to the knife community, so Thank you!
Thanks for the overview man. When I made that video 3 years ago the intention was to compile the “best practices” I found on bladeforums. With the intention of easily getting a beginner started. The knives I’ve made and tested with those methods performed pretty darn good, so that’s a plus! But I guess they could have been better!
I’m curious about annealing. Is it needed on stock removal knives? (When you start with annealed stock?)
I think it could be cool for us to do a “re-make” of this old video as a colab! Cheers
For most stock removal knives I think heat treating from the as-received, annealed state is perfectly fine. We should do a video together for sure!
Hey. You made it into a knife steel nerds video!
Yes please do a collaboration video together. That would be awesome and it needs to happen.
@@KnifeSteelNerds You guys could compare knives previously made or being made with his current methods by Red Beard Ops and test the differences with the fine tuning done with a new blade. Or with multiple new blades, ya know, for sample size purposes.
You guys are too friendly. Let's have an argument. Polarization is cool. Apparently.
A fellow metallurgist here. I work in a fairly large carburizing heat treat department. I agree with your comments about 13:00 in on the thermo cycling. The grain size change that occurs during the normalize cycle is mostly accomplished with the first normalize and with the subsequent quench. The lower temp reheats are going to affect the carbide vs retained austenite structure. In my business, we want retained austenite instead of carbides, so we quench from a higher temp and try to stay out of the carbide forming temps for extended periods of time.
On the quench oil at about 13:45. The temp of the quench oil is important for the quench speed. We want the oil at the correct viscosity so it will carry away the heat at the required speed. Cold oil is not going to quench as well or as evenly. Uneven quenching leads to distortion.
Thanks for debunking and clarifying, once again, Larrin. Youre a huge asset to our community.
Based on what I've learned I bit the bullet and now do my HT in an Evenheat and then use Parks 50, following the datasheets on each steel. I've learned the hard way that I can't take cheap shortcuts and expect to get the most out of the steel. Thanks for sharing your expertise, and yes, I'm reading your book for the second time!
I'm just glad our dear Walter passed the test. Whew.
Thanks for the vid. It was fun.
I was okay with whatever critiques outdoor55 might get because his content has a lot of entertainment value. When he said Walter was up next, I was sweaty his evaluation. Especially when he called him crazy at 18:02 lol. Something about Walter’s knowledge and delivery makes him my go to source of information.
I used to weld and have some basic metalworking knowledge and wow was I in the stone age. Somehow never really thought about this area of science, which is surprising because I love metal and enjoy spectating science. Before your videos I guess I sort of just had a slightly magical mindset to how it all works to put it simply.
However, reading the comments though I'm kind of shocked to find this sort of info is new to the top pros in the field too. It seems I'm not alone in still looking at this with sort of an iron age mysticism lol.
Glad the fields are merging. Thanks for your videos, you rock.
There is a lot of miss information on the internet . That is why i follow people like yourself ! I do all my heat treatment in an oven , following time and heat guidelines . When i forge a piece of steel , i might do one normalizing cycle in the forge before going to the oven .
Being colorblind makes me very cautious as i can not trust my eyes. The information you have given me , both in your book and in private messages , have been absolutely spot on every time
I think it’s safe to say you fully geek out when it comes to metallurgy.
And it’s delightful to watch.
Cheers!
Finally a nerd I can understand about steel. I don't know a lot about heat treating (stages of crystalization I understand). When I saw your vid on the subject I needed to take a look. You showed all the failures I've seen before in these types of vids and pointed them out. (We aren't in the realm of metal magic anymore. Use a temp gauge or stick.) Now I'm off to watch you do it right. (I'm a knife nerd but have never made them. I can tell you about the things you speak of about the metal stages and why they fail when looking at the metal.) Thanks for sticking to the science of it.
I'm 62 , been fascinated with knives since I watched my dad sharpened buck knives on arkansas stones . Read a lot of articles over the years . I've watched how the frontier of steel science is being constantly pushed forward. It's amazing how changing the steel ingredients or playing with the heat treat can have such profound effects . For me , it's mind numbing complexity but that's why I find this so fascinating. Love how you make these issues easier for others to understand. Only a teacher who loves learning will understand.
Never say you aren't crazy.
Walter is a good dude. He doesn't get super technical but he is a good teacher and seems like he would be fun to have a beer with.
Totally agree. Walter seems like a good guy. And I definitely love his videos even if they're aren't super in depth scientifically.
I love Walter Sorrell's videos. He was just trying to give someone a very basic introduction to hardening knives and he did a reasonably good job of that. It's not always easy to explain complicated issues in simple terms. And yes, never say you aren't crazy, just run with it - sort of like Steven the Irishman from Braveheart, lol.
@@scottvines4093
Being able to explain complicated issues in simple terms is one of the biggest things that show someone actually understands the concept instead of just regurgitating something they read.
I've seen guys do the heat treat process with fire and I have to say there is definatly an art form to it both with coal and gas. Having that oven can make the process more exact with much better overal results but for guys just getting into it and working with simple steels like 1084 it's a great way to get your feet wet without spending lots of cash. Always fun learning about metallurgy and and how it applies to the knife world. Thanks for the great vid and keep making sharp things fun and enjoyable
My favorite scientist bringing the HEAT..what a treat.
Haha, kinda bad but kinda funny at the same time
45 years ago I worked with an old blacksmith in Thailand. Nothing fancy but he beat old truck springs into working knives. Charcoal forge, edge hardened in water. He made good stuff and was very particular in what he did. He was very careful about the quenching and tempering, All was done in a continuous manner after heating. I wish I could go back to that time as I've learned a lot since then.
Thank you for making this video! There is a lot of unnecessary steps and myth in knife making and forging. You have help us eliminate a lot of unnecessary things that we have to do.
You can't go wrong by watching any of Walter Sorrell's videos. I don't agree with him 100 per cent on everything but nobody does- get 5 smiths in a room and you'll get 6 opinions. The man has a solid knowledge base and is good with sharing it.
I agree the first video went off the deep end for no reason. Flexing.
Fascinating breakdown from the perspective of someone unfamiliar with the process. Very much appreciate the knowledge given and the corrections being nicely done rather than brutal. Thanks for sharing and thank you for Magnacut!
The most gentle review I've ever seen
Great video, like I’ve told ppl TH-cam can teach u how to do something but can also teach u many ways to not do something.
Thats why I dont trust custom makers who have no idea what they're doing and I prefer engineered mass produced knives. Thanks, Mr. Magnacut, you confirmed my suspicions.
Though custom makers that do know what they're doing, partly in thanks to Larrin, can make better knives with better heat treatments than the batch vacuum furnace heat treatment that varies by like.. 2 points. That's like 57 to 59 HRC on something like 12c27m that can get up to 62 pretty well and more than tough enough there, 14c28n is even better.
Wax sticks! Haven't heard about them in a long time. They were also used to determine the air fuel mixture on cars or motorcycles by using the exhaust header temperature using wax sticks. Have only be shown once in 2006 by a Volvo technician in his mid 60's. Absolutely fantastic to watch and learn.
I have so much to learn. First, I need to buy a fast quenching oil. Then I need to look at your heat treating with a forge videos. Thanks again.
the totally candid "I'm not crazy" made me crack up
This is analogous to a MD debunking alternative medicine. Great work!
I recently commented on one of your posts that I bought 2 Magnacut blanks, and I did mention I plan to have Peter's Heat Treating to the HT, which is really a general term that seems to be used as it includes annealing and tempering. In the past when I HT in a forge I stick the blade in coal ashes to slow the cooling process. I have never done it more than once though, and I also was taught that after dunking in oil, I put it back in the forge and let it burn the oil off and allow the flame to go out, then finally bury it in coal ashes. I have some old coil springs (5160 ???) and O1 I've used this process using transmission fluid. Probably not the best but what I was taught by my smithy mentor. What I wanted to point out here is that it's worth the cost to have a professional heat treater like Peter's Heat Treating to do it for you. It also requires a computer controlled oven to do it properly, and the cost of a single blade is quite a bit less...with all that said, I have seen most of these videos you annotate and it is the reason I come to the conclusion to let a professional HT for me. I have only done HT on high carbon, and stainless is yet another story.
One caution on DIYeasycrafts, he states take it past cherry red and it pulls the blade out it's just about white...one thing I have learned the hardway in a coal forge is that there's a very narrow window between cherry red and white and once it goes white your blade can vaporize at any time...🙄
Dr Larin Thomas, I'm a huge knife steel enthusiast, I totally appreciate your in depth metallurgy knowledge 👍 😀 thank you sir 👍 🙋♂️ please keep educating us knowledge thirsty knife enthusiasts. 🔪 you the man buddy 🙌 👏 💪 👍 👌
I liked the "I'm not crazy" comment at about 17:50
Then he pauses again and concedes "Okay maybe I'm a little crazy." Self awareness is healthy.
I think the fact that I watch this video and was entertained and it had my complete attention for the entire thing means i might be a little bit crazy myself 🤣🤣🤣
I can't get enough of this knife heat treating stuff I watched a video just the other day done by (Nat from the intent) on and experiment with quenching knives in liquid nitrogen it's fascinating all the ins-and-outs of heat treating steel.
Love the video keep it up 👍
At around 4 minutes there was some talk of austenic structures, Alec was going for transformation to a carbon steel. But yeah, point taken👍🏻
Super useful content right here. Thanks for sharing your knowledge & expertise!
I do find it comforting that the bulk of the videos that you covered were pretty much in the ballpark with their data. Not too bad…🙆♂️
I recognized inconsistencies with various methods early in my online quest for knowledge, and then promptly purchased your book. So far so good kind sir. Thank you for your contributions to the world of metallurgy; particularly within the knife community. Side-note: I’m looking forward to getting my hands on some Magnacut. 😁
Crazy, I was reading your book on this topic just last night and then I saw this video today - thank you for taking your time share your knowledge and do all of this.
This was a really fun watch. I would love to see you offer critiques of other makers.
Thanks for all you do! We (new knifemakers) need you!
Hello Larrin! Thank you for your critiques on the various OPINIONS of heat treatments out in the wild, so-to-speak, on YT. I just ordered your book from Amazon and am looking forward to reading it and using it as a reference in the future. I spent my entire career working around steel (hot rolled JAC270F - 45/45) and heavy die tooling for a major automotive manufacturer, and am just getting into forging and knifemaking.
I think the errors, albeit with good intentions, of the various YT creators is quite commonplace when it comes to science and math concepts. Objective facts surrounding forging, annealing, normalizing, austenitization / quenching, etc. of many well-intentioned smiths and knifemakers think that how they FEEL about something, while ignoring objective facts regarding material properties, is somehow germane to the discussion. It is not, and I have learned to immediately hit my browser's 'back' button when something they say is incorrect. People need to understand that the "works-for-me" or "good enough" approach may get close to the actual result, but in no way can be emperically verified. I REALLY have a problem with this, but YT is what it is. Thanks for your content and hard work!
I think everyone should read your book!
Very helpful information. Even though I have no plans to make knives myself it is very worthwhile to have a better understanding of the basics. Thank you.
Most TH-cam content creators are not highly educated. I have to take what they claim with much skepticism. Is nice to actually have someone with a PhD dispersing the myth.
U put in the time doc. And now we can all respectfully learn from u. Thank u & btw if u are a little crazy, its a very good crazy!
Internet Raid siren going off
TH-cam knife makers: "Oh lawd he coming!"
I'd agree with the colour and heat guessing, mostly because you look at some of these shops with a $3-5000 grinder, $1000 in the anvil and hammers, presses and power hammers worth a 2nd hand car, hundreds into the forge- but at some point most of them missed the simplest and quite cheap option of a about $80 will get you are really good digital thermometer and some spare thermocouples you can just run into the region your heating at. Plus, just as someone who did adult ed in the radio-engineering part of commercial business for a long time, stop staring at really strong emitters of infrared radiation sources- fire is cool, yes it really is but don't stare into the forge too much up close without some eye protection.
great job, thank you. You pulled from several people I have learned from, so it was particularly interesting to see your assessment of their advice.
I really enjoyed this! I’ve always enjoyed your very matter of fact approach and reaction to things and this video certainly helps showcase it! That said, your well placed sarcasm always gets me, “Framing hammer for straightening, nice.”
@knifesteelnerds Larin, I met your dad and uncle at bladeshow west in Salt Lake this year. I love your content. Thanks for what you do.
Fantastic video Larrin! Totally showing this to my lecturers!
Finally a heat training video or somebody says something that makes sense thanks for sharing
Great video! Thanks for the clarification on many points! Thanks for referring us back to things like the data sheet and specs and tests instead of feelings and less reliable methods!
Thanks for expanding upon and explaining some of the common information that is on TH-cam regarding heat treating knife steel…🤘🤠
"I'm not crazy" ... "Maybe I am a little crazy" haha well I feel you my friend
I have really enjoyed this video because if you read the comment section you will gain even more knowledge thank you for sharing your wisdom with us all godbless and be safe.
Some useful information here that I have not encountered in other videos. First I have heard of Temper sticks.
Brutal... Good stuff! I'm going to stay on the user side of this hobby...
Thanks for the video. : )
I would like to thank all your patreon donors for their donations allowing you to give us with all this information and a great steel in mangnucut
Love the video Oh I would like to see more videos like this keep calling out misinformation you did this in a nice way to but got your point across thank you. I kept waiting watching the video thinking one of my misinformation videos would pop up 😂
Great video always fascinating to see how even though certain amount of experience is necessary for progress in any given craft without proper knowledge and keeping an open mind to new information you will only regress .
Some just over think it I been building knives for very very long time only ever had a few mishaps all the video's are the basic idea trial and error is the best way to learn
32:04 does the grain being "blown out" mean the grain size is too large? How does austenite grain size influence the martesite?
You should look at Ed Fowlers heat treating of 5160 and 52100. He is a master smith and has been attempting to prefect heat treating these steels.
once again - awesome video. Entertaining and informative. I hope there are more comming :)
Thank you sir. This was great to watch learned a lot.
Genius!! Thank you kindly for your EMPIRICAL truth!.
I use the "shadows" in the steel that dissappears when the autenizing occurs. Along with the color. And just leave it for about one minute or so to fully dissolve the carbides before quenching.
Thanks for this video, giving reactions on heat treat and learning something..
Great job, loved this video. Thank you.
"it has a lot of views so it must be good"
That's the kind of sarcasm thats inevitable when listening to people explain something you understand far better than them!
Love this! You are sooooo restrained. I'd be struggling to hold back the sarcastic/sardonic comments. Keep up that no nonsense attitude.
I'll have to listen to this a few more times, but Thank You very much for this information. I know little to nothing, but this interesting. Where I need to saw mo.
Great video Larrin, excellent idea👌👍
This was neat, I learned a lot. Thank you.
A question from a commercial heat treater: Why the thermal cycling? Especially thermal cycling ending with a spherodize anneal. I agree with normalizing, in my experience a normalized structure is the best structure to have prior to austenitizing in order to contribute to uniform transformation and fine grain size. Spherodizing was only used as an anneal for severe forming and any material that had been spherodized annealed was always normalized prior to hardening. I'm familiar with aerospace and industrial applications with alloy steels, super alloys and tool steels. In fact, military and international standards specifying heat treat procedures specify that most alloys, intended for critical applications, be in the normalized and tempered condition prior to austenitizing.
Would love to see a video about nodule formation in Martensite during tempering, including differences between diffusion, precipitation, etc, etc... Thanks!
I find people understand solubility when it comes to sugar and salt in the kitchen. I have been comparing heat treatment to how some eliminates will begin to change before something melts. It seems like people kinda get it.
Have you done any videos in which you discuss the heat treatment (i.e. process, pros, cons) of the cutting edge, alone, such as they do with saws? Also, have you done any heat treatments using induction instead of a forge/oven?
No
If I have one piece of advice, it's this: get a high temp thermocouple for your forge. Not everyone has the money or space for a kiln. A k-type thermocouple and reader can be had for $50 and it makes a world of difference. If you control the temperature on your forge (just turn your propane pressure down), you can get a really good heat treatment. And buy Larrin's book. I did.
Especially if you use a muffle.
What a great video. Thanks 👍
Larrin,....my apologies, DR. Larrin, you are the fuckin man!!!! I swear, you must have some German in you because you're fuckin awesome. I appreciate everything you do and have done. Big thanks to your pops and the world is gonna need at least about 5 sons from you, so you better be spreading your seed.
I have some heat treat vids in my playl-ists also in my about tab there is a link to some of the same vids but also some PDFs. Its a work in progress and don't have all the time in the world.
I would prefer videos to include developing and testing a protocol with test coupons. But most makers just want to get a protocol from a forum or book or whatever source and assume its good for their application.
When you asked why knife makers were afraid of letting their steel soak for me it is because I want to avoid the scaling, it sucks to clean off.
Well now I know why I got so many repeat knife customers. I'm doing it right.👍
You are a blessing!
It's difficult with a forge but people made knifes this way for a long time
Yep lol and as long as the customers are happy who cares .
This interests me . I actually understood some of this. For me , it’s fun to try to make things as perfect as possible by doing the processes as perfect as possible . Learned from construction that one screw up not addressed will make for more problems down the road . Thanks for sharing 😊
Thanks for the video. 👍
Subscribed.
Thank you Dr! Thank you for the book! You're doing the Lord's work in this insane community.
When I was a newb quenching 1080/1084 I would do material reduction grinding knife upto 95% complete from mill stock then heat for 5 minutes non magnetic and stab it into a stainless oil cup full of hot canola probably over 160° and go shake shake shake maybe 2 seconds then stab it into a 5gal of water for a faster quench and shake shake shake for maybe 10 more seconds or so then into 2/400°f cycles at 1 hour each and air cool to room temp then run under cold water and put into the freezer for 1 hour in between the 1 hour tempers at 400° which in hindsight I’m sure the hour in the freezer did nothing most likely... or absolutely 🤣
You need to consider that some of these videos are from hobbyists and are geared toward hobbyists that don't have the funds for a making only a few blades.
You should do a series geared toward that guy that doesn't want to spend a lot to make a few blades, I would be very interested in that and so would others.
Thank you so much for the insight!
Thanks a lot for this video.
Keep ‘em coming 👍🏻
How does magnetic polarization affect the molecular structure of carbon steel, during and after heat treatment?
Very informative video.. got some questions though. What is the difference between normalizing and annealing, and blades really need both or not. Thanks.