The author is NOT praising those heroes who are rapists, murderers and cannibals, they were simply decent people forced to become rapists, murderers and cannibals within a systematically flawed society ruled by evil people. In other words, bad people were creating more bad people. When Song Jiang finally surrendered, he was trying to break that viscious cycle and do the right things such as fighting invaders and rebels, but in the end, due to the fked up system itself and the evil people within it, he and most of his men ended up dying. The author simply painted a society that was rotten to the core, and no matter how much of a ripple those 108 men caused, unless that dude sitting on the throne did something (which he didn't), nothing will change. The core of the story is still relevant today as there's still plenty of systematic social injustice. The novel serves as a cry from those struggling within those flawed societies, and I think the way it's structured and presented is pretty ingenious.
Man I don’t even know these guys but the ending has got my eyes a little teary. Shi Nai'an is a master author, making me feel for characters even when its just a summary.
The ancient sages said "do not despise the snake for having no horns, for who is to say it will not become a dragon?" So may one just man become an army
Great content!! Thanks for doing this. Being away from my motherland for so years. I've started to revisit Chinese culture and literacy through foreigners' lens, and I benefit a lot from it. Thank you
Wow simply amazing. I've heard of the story but had absolutely no idea about the plot and characters. Every single practitioner of martial arts need to learn the lessons in this story so they understand that martial arts sole purpose is to uphold honor and the greater good, and not to be used for self glorification as is in most of the cases today.
"14th century China has a very alien version of societal ethics" - "heroes" are literally psychopaths and hardened criminals - extremely loyal to the sovereign - brutal murders perpetrated by the "heroes" So it really is Chinese Robin Hood and medieval England. Really sounds like the original ballads of Robin Hood where scenes like brutally killing and dismembering Guy of Gisbourne, little John and Will Scarlet murdering a monk and his paige, Robin killing soldiers in a church etc..
Absolutely! Great comment. Yeah in some sense even we in the modern day are estranged from our native legends and stories. I think thats why the water margin struck me as particularly alien.
@@daveeygdoeschinese Your video has inspired me to look for the series and watch it. I've been getting really into Chinese culture, history, and other stuff the pique my interest lately.
Yeah i'd like to, it'll certainly make my time spent on this worthwhile. I'll have to see how receptive everyone is for this video and decide after that.
After watching the 1998 series (which is incredible), I can't believe I didn't realize sooner that the plot of the story is basically the original JoJo's Bizarre Adventure. It makes so much sense now.
The book doesn’t straight up tell you the ethics, it doesn’t glorify murderers rapists, the ethics is not “loyalty and brotherhood”, in fact it’s the complete opposite, the protagonists(108 heroes) are a representation of the society, some of them are good, some of them are bad, li kui etc are the representation of the bad side, song Jiang for example is like a politician, looks good on the outside but evil on the inside,the reason why the book has a tragic ending where everyone dies except people that learned from their mistakes is because the author is telling you to NOT do the stuff the bandits do in the book, like being loyal to the souvenir, anyway there is a tradition in old Chinese history called “fan shi”(opposite poem), this is an example of it.
Yeah your right the only ones that survive are the ones that turn away from it. That being said even though its technically a cautionary tail, its not the way its seen in culture as the characters are glorified (really depends who you ask). You can really see it from either perspective but its for that reason why the book gets banned from time to time while its condoned during other periods. You can read it as a tragic tail of heros nobly upholding confucian ethics above all else, or the misadventures of naeive characters who were brainwashed by society into doing the wrong thing. For the video i chose to look at it through the lense of the former.
The leader Sung Chiang,His nickname is timely rain. It means. When you need help. He will come to help you Right on time. . But his name 宋江 sounds like. "to the river"（送江）in chinese，When timely rain goes to river. It becomes meaningless. It's a message comes from the writer From hundred years ago. If you find these little secrets. The book will be more interesting.
Thanks for this valuable insight! I'm preparing an exam on Bandits of Honor in Asia and this video is well done for the plot. You could add some literary commentaries on the oral tradition inside the novel, the ambiguous authorship, and the main target of the narrative being the pleasure of discovering their "becoming" bandits. I suggest you to read the History of Hong Kiltong, by Hô Kyun, it's probably inspired by this novel but it's much shorter and adapted to the developing Korean culture.
Great analysis. I only have one gripe, when you said: “ making such a movie nowadays would be unwatchable “. I would disagree for the same reasons why Passion of the Christ , a so called unwatchable movie, had such critical success. Classics such as the water margin is akin to the Bible. The stories there predates ancient civilizations, they are written in our DNA, the stories that we read on paper are merely a translation. A change in taste cannot suppress such passions, which I believe will stir once more if a modern adaptation ever gets made.
I think Overly Sarcastic Productuin is one of the best starting point to get into Journey to the West lore. Dream of the Red Chamber is certainly harder to get into. It's not as action-packed as the other three so there are fewer adaptations.
I spent all these years thinking that these were heroes who fought for justice under a corrupt regime and had to hide as outlaws amidst bandits' hideouts. Did I read or understand this incorrectly then? What does the book tell us?
When I first saw the series on British TV in the 70s, I thought it was reminiscent of X-Men but set in medieval China! The central characters are flawed and complicated and some of them are morally ambiguous, even cold blooded killers, but what joins them is that they're all hated and hunted by a corrupted authority and they all have their own individual 'skills'; outsiders, literally marginalised. But then I WAS only about 12 when I was watching it, and you're allowed to think like that at that age. To me at the time, it wasn't quite as silly in tone as 'Monkey', but it wasn't anywhere near as good as 'I, Claudius'. It had nowhere near as high a nipple count as 'I, Claudius', and a high nipple count butters many parsnips when you're 12. Trust me on this.
The main obstacle to understanding the Chinese culture and mindset is the inability to let go of ones own indoctrination and not perceived difficulties in Chinese culture.
Really nice video there, pal! I'm kinda well acquainted of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms but I don't know much about Water Margin except for the overall premise. I've watched the 1972 Shaw Brothers movie and played half of the first Suikoden game and that was my main contact with this story. I also know the manga adaptation by Mitsuteru Yokoyama done in the late 60s but never read it since there are no translations (and he did one of the best adaptations of Rot3K out there). This video got me interested on it, but I think the original novel may be too heavy for me right now. Do you recommend any other adaptation of the story? I know that there are some TV Drama adaptations and I found some subs for the 1998 one. How does it feel as an adaptation?
Yeah the novel is a prettt dense read. I recomend the 1998 one if you can get some good subs. Actually its one of the most moving things ive ever watched. Sorry for the late response!
Hi guys, just wanted to share my insight on this story which is one of my favourites. To me its a tragic story of a band of good man & woman. The band of man & woman has displayed 忠义 loosely translated would be the quality of righteousness and loyalty despite obviously not being paragons of virtue which no man can aspire to be. 愚义(Fool's loyalty) is what the band's behavior can be described as to serve an inept emperor. Which is respectable in Chinese culture due to the serving of one's nation being of utmost importance. Which is why Yue Fei is held in high regard even today. Nine dragon shi was moved by the brotherly bonds between mere bandits, most would pledge their life but who would truly be able to keep it? Lin cong despite being framed and set up, was willing to serve his sentence so that he can uphold his good name and return home. Song Jiang's intent was to redeem them not in the eyes of the people but the heavens. To serve the nation and change it from inside, to rid of corrupt officials but they were never given the chance, used merely as disposable mercenaries at the borders. Song Jiang safekept the gold not because he was a hypocrite looking for reasons to keep it to himself but because it is seen as a extremely rude gesture to return gifts. I can go on and on but i think it's important to understand the story was written in a different time
@@Gb-be9bn personally I actually liked the 2011 version more. The 1998 adaptation skipped over too many story points and some minor characters were completely removed. The 2011 version did the novel more justice
Song Jiang was not a good brother, he was always lab dog to the imperial court. He only used the other 107 brothers just so he can earn himself a place in the government. To him the 107 brothers are stepping stones for his dream, but his dream was helping a corrupt government with incompetent emperor and other political factions who will never accept him as one of their own. In a way Song Jiang is similar to Griffith from Berserk, they both has sacrifice their comrades lives for their selfish desire.
🌟If you enjoyed the video, you can buy me a coffee (or a beer). Thanks!! ☕
www.buymeacoffee.com/daveeygdoeschinese
The author is NOT praising those heroes who are rapists, murderers and cannibals, they were simply decent people forced to become rapists, murderers and cannibals within a systematically flawed society ruled by evil people. In other words, bad people were creating more bad people. When Song Jiang finally surrendered, he was trying to break that viscious cycle and do the right things such as fighting invaders and rebels, but in the end, due to the fked up system itself and the evil people within it, he and most of his men ended up dying. The author simply painted a society that was rotten to the core, and no matter how much of a ripple those 108 men caused, unless that dude sitting on the throne did something (which he didn't), nothing will change. The core of the story is still relevant today as there's still plenty of systematic social injustice. The novel serves as a cry from those struggling within those flawed societies, and I think the way it's structured and presented is pretty ingenious.
Man I don’t even know these guys but the ending has got my eyes a little teary. Shi Nai'an is a master author, making me feel for characters even when its just a summary.
remember growing up watching this on TV. Even now the theme song is stuck in my head after 2 decades
The ancient sages said "do not despise the snake for having no horns, for who is to say it will not become a dragon?" So may one just man become an army
Great content!! Thanks for doing this. Being away from my motherland for so years. I've started to revisit Chinese culture and literacy through foreigners' lens, and I benefit a lot from it. Thank you
OMG YES, yes yes this is the content I love, ty for explaining the top chinese literary texts to us
When i was a kid i loved the 1976 tv series of the Water Margin it pulled me into Chinese literature
Wow simply amazing. I've heard of the story but had absolutely no idea about the plot and characters. Every single practitioner of martial arts need to learn the lessons in this story so they understand that martial arts sole purpose is to uphold honor and the greater good, and not to be used for self glorification as is in most of the cases today.
This is amazing content! I'm looking forward to watching more of your videos. Thank you for making these.
"14th century China has a very alien version of societal ethics"
- "heroes" are literally psychopaths and hardened criminals
- extremely loyal to the sovereign
- brutal murders perpetrated by the "heroes"
So it really is Chinese Robin Hood and medieval England. Really sounds like the original ballads of Robin Hood where scenes like brutally killing and dismembering Guy of Gisbourne, little John and Will Scarlet murdering a monk and his paige, Robin killing soldiers in a church etc..
Absolutely! Great comment. Yeah in some sense even we in the modern day are estranged from our native legends and stories. I think thats why the water margin struck me as particularly alien.
@@daveeygdoeschinese Your video has inspired me to look for the series and watch it. I've been getting really into Chinese culture, history, and other stuff the pique my interest lately.
Well at least Robin Hood didn’t kill the whole family including women and children like Wu Song or cannibalize his imposter like Li Kui right?
Damn.
Song Jiang really got the short end of the stick for truly sticking to his guns, huh.
Moral age gap aside, some of these guys were pretty based.
Great video! Hopefully this gets the views it deserves
What a gem..
Warm regards from Suikoden fans.
This upload was right on time for me
I would love more in depth analysis of this story if you could
Yeah i'd like to, it'll certainly make my time spent on this worthwhile. I'll have to see how receptive everyone is for this video and decide after that.
@@daveeygdoeschinese it would be cool if you covered the stories of various members of the Liangshan Marsh, like the Xie brothers
After watching the 1998 series (which is incredible), I can't believe I didn't realize sooner that the plot of the story is basically the original JoJo's Bizarre Adventure. It makes so much sense now.
The book doesn’t straight up tell you the ethics, it doesn’t glorify murderers rapists, the ethics is not “loyalty and brotherhood”, in fact it’s the complete opposite, the protagonists(108 heroes) are a representation of the society, some of them are good, some of them are bad, li kui etc are the representation of the bad side, song Jiang for example is like a politician, looks good on the outside but evil on the inside,the reason why the book has a tragic ending where everyone dies except people that learned from their mistakes is because the author is telling you to NOT do the stuff the bandits do in the book, like being loyal to the souvenir, anyway there is a tradition in old Chinese history called “fan shi”(opposite poem), this is an example of it.
I agree with you, thank you for the comment.
Yeah your right the only ones that survive are the ones that turn away from it. That being said even though its technically a cautionary tail, its not the way its seen in culture as the characters are glorified (really depends who you ask). You can really see it from either perspective but its for that reason why the book gets banned from time to time while its condoned during other periods. You can read it as a tragic tail of heros nobly upholding confucian ethics above all else, or the misadventures of naeive characters who were brainwashed by society into doing the wrong thing. For the video i chose to look at it through the lense of the former.
We can certainly agree though the author did mean for it to be a fan shi though.
Update more often and regularly would be the best, good stuff
Your voice is perfect for narrations could listen for hours
This video is actually genuinely criminaly underated underated and damm ❤😂🎉.
The leader Sung Chiang,His nickname is timely rain.
It means. When you need help. He will come to help you Right on time. .
But his name 宋江 sounds like. "to the river"（送江）in chinese，When timely rain goes to river. It becomes meaningless. It's a message comes from the writer From hundred years ago. If you find these little secrets. The book will be more interesting.
tnx
Thanks for this valuable insight! I'm preparing an exam on Bandits of Honor in Asia and this video is well done for the plot. You could add some literary commentaries on the oral tradition inside the novel, the ambiguous authorship, and the main target of the narrative being the pleasure of discovering their "becoming" bandits. I suggest you to read the History of Hong Kiltong, by Hô Kyun, it's probably inspired by this novel but it's much shorter and adapted to the developing Korean culture.
I really like your editing in this video , subbed
Thanks man :)
Great analysis. I only have one gripe, when you said: “ making such a movie nowadays would be unwatchable “. I would disagree for the same reasons why Passion of the Christ , a so called unwatchable movie, had such critical success.
Classics such as the water margin is akin to the Bible. The stories there predates ancient civilizations, they are written in our DNA, the stories that we read on paper are merely a translation. A change in taste cannot suppress such passions, which I believe will stir once more if a modern adaptation ever gets made.
Excellent synopsis, thank you for sharing it.
Please do the other two journey to the west and dream of the red chamber after. It's so difficult to find this kind of content online.
I think Overly Sarcastic Productuin is one of the best starting point to get into Journey to the West lore.
Dream of the Red Chamber is certainly harder to get into. It's not as action-packed as the other three so there are fewer adaptations.
I was under the impression that the writer of this book was unknown.
Did Lu Zhi Sheng eventually go back to being Monk in Journey to the West? That same guy?
I spent all these years thinking that these were heroes who fought for justice under a corrupt regime and had to hide as outlaws amidst bandits' hideouts. Did I read or understand this incorrectly then? What does the book tell us?
i love this, bro. keep on keeping on
When I first saw the series on British TV in the 70s, I thought it was reminiscent of X-Men but set in medieval China! The central characters are flawed and complicated and some of them are morally ambiguous, even cold blooded killers, but what joins them is that they're all hated and hunted by a corrupted authority and they all have their own individual 'skills'; outsiders, literally marginalised. But then I WAS only about 12 when I was watching it, and you're allowed to think like that at that age. To me at the time, it wasn't quite as silly in tone as 'Monkey', but it wasn't anywhere near as good as 'I, Claudius'. It had nowhere near as high a nipple count as 'I, Claudius', and a high nipple count butters many parsnips when you're 12.
Trust me on this.
The main obstacle to understanding the Chinese culture and mindset is the inability to let go of ones own indoctrination and not perceived difficulties in Chinese culture.
excellent video, I love how the subtitles transform Gao Qiu into Gaucho xD (well the gauchos were a bit hao han)
Really nice video there, pal!
I'm kinda well acquainted of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms but I don't know much about Water Margin except for the overall premise.
I've watched the 1972 Shaw Brothers movie and played half of the first Suikoden game and that was my main contact with this story. I also know the manga adaptation by Mitsuteru Yokoyama done in the late 60s but never read it since there are no translations (and he did one of the best adaptations of Rot3K out there). This video got me interested on it, but I think the original novel may be too heavy for me right now. Do you recommend any other adaptation of the story?
I know that there are some TV Drama adaptations and I found some subs for the 1998 one. How does it feel as an adaptation?
Yeah the novel is a prettt dense read. I recomend the 1998 one if you can get some good subs. Actually its one of the most moving things ive ever watched. Sorry for the late response!
The 2011 TV series is the most accurate and most entertaining. 1998 is the most classic though.
Wow, that is so cool, another good story i want to add to my book collection!
Simply amazing
Hi guys, just wanted to share my insight on this story which is one of my favourites. To me its a tragic story of a band of good man & woman.
The band of man & woman has displayed 忠义 loosely translated would be the quality of righteousness and loyalty despite obviously not being paragons of virtue which no man can aspire to be.
愚义(Fool's loyalty) is what the band's behavior can be described as to serve an inept emperor. Which is respectable in Chinese culture due to the serving of one's nation being of utmost importance. Which is why Yue Fei is held in high regard even today.
Nine dragon shi was moved by the brotherly bonds between mere bandits, most would pledge their life but who would truly be able to keep it?
Lin cong despite being framed and set up, was willing to serve his sentence so that he can uphold his good name and return home.
Song Jiang's intent was to redeem them not in the eyes of the people but the heavens. To serve the nation and change it from inside, to rid of corrupt officials but they were never given the chance, used merely as disposable mercenaries at the borders.
Song Jiang safekept the gold not because he was a hypocrite looking for reasons to keep it to himself but because it is seen as a extremely rude gesture to return gifts.
I can go on and on but i think it's important to understand the story was written in a different time
watched this as a boy more than 42 years ago :o ..thanks so much for insights through your summary
Thank you!!
Where can I find this show on good quality. Guys please reply 😢😢
God damn I LIVE for these videos
Thank you
That pronunciation of filial gave me whiplash. XD Not trying to be mean, but 'Fill Lyle' with what, exactly? (FEEL-ee-al, for future reference)
Souns like a big fraternity.
The way the heroes ended their lives at the end is so fuckin honorable. Allah damn who's cutting onions in my kitchen right now!?
My Chinese is rather poor, but I would loosely translate ‘hao Han’ as ‘real man’
I watched this content because i want to know more about the inspiration of the game Suikoden. Somewhat the plot is loosely similar to the first game.
Do Australians in general say "filial" like you did here, or is that just you?
Which adaptation is the footage from?
Water Margin 1998, 43 episodes. Widely considered to be the best adaption in China.
I enjoyed the adaptation from the late 70s done for uk tv ! The water Margin ! ❤🙏
@@Gb-be9bn personally I actually liked the 2011 version more. The 1998 adaptation skipped over too many story points and some minor characters were completely removed. The 2011 version did the novel more justice
Hero 108 brought me here.
Does anyone know the song at the end
th-cam.com/video/6EmhlYh-bLU/w-d-xo.html
Song Jiang was not a good brother, he was always lab dog to the imperial court. He only used the other 107 brothers just so he can earn himself a place in the government. To him the 107 brothers are stepping stones for his dream, but his dream was helping a corrupt government with incompetent emperor and other political factions who will never accept him as one of their own. In a way Song Jiang is similar to Griffith from Berserk, they both has sacrifice their comrades lives for their selfish desire.
hao han is a funny term lol It literally justmeans Good Han people(Chinese)
1:08 What the heck hahahaha
Video is titled "Tampere 2013 Hurdle Fail"
100822
hahah what the heck how did you find that video??
@@daveeygdoeschinese took me quite some time hahahah
@@Olly07 lol legend
@@daveeygdoeschinese Hao Han effort hahahahah
Great interpretation. Water margin is really about brotherhood and loyalty. Totally opposite of our todays western society-wokie alphabets
Chinese novels and history are not impregnable or inscrutable. Westerners ofteh never psy any attention to other cultures.
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