The Small Misunderstanding That Doomed 180 People | Inex Adria Aviopromet 1308
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This is the story of Inex-Adria Aviopromet Flight 1308. On the 1st of december 1981 a MCdonall douglas MD81 was flying from Brinik airport in yugoslavia to corsica france. This was a charter flight, the MD81 had 180 people on board, they planned on using a DC-9 but they switched to an MD81 because there were more people than expected. On that morning the plane was full, so full that children had to share a seat, since they would be flying back the same day the passengers didnt have any luggage and so they could fill the plane up to its maximum capacity and not worry about weight restrictions.
After 7:40 am in the morning flight 1308 lifted off from brinik airport bound for corsica. As the plane flew over Italy everyone onboard was jubilant and the pilots were busy with the approach checklist. They went over the speeds that they would use for this approach. The approach to corsica’s airport was complex; they first had to fly towards the AJO VOR. A VOR or a VHF omni directional range is a beacon that is used by pilots to navigate. Once at the VOR they had to enter a holding pattern to lose some altitude, once low enough, They'd fly a heading on 247 degrees, that is the 247 radial of the AJO VOR. They'd fly a heading of 247 degrees till they passed the extended centerline of the runway and then they'd do a 320 degree left turn finally lining up with the runway. For runway 03 they could go straight in but to land on runway 21 they’d have to get within visual range of the airport and then circle it and come in for a landing from the other side.
That day as the plane cruised at 11,000 feet the pilots got in touch with Ajjacio approach. ““Bonjour Ajaccio, Adria 1308, we are level one one zero approaching Ajaccio VOR and further descent.” the controller replied with. “Juliet Papa 1308, Ajaccio approach, good morning,“Number one in approach, you maintain one one zero until you reach Alpha Juliet Oscar VOR: it will be for a procedure from the VOR, QNH one zero zero nine, QFE one zero zero eight; surface wind is two eight zero degrees for twenty knots. Runway two one in use, you report over Alpha Juliet Oscar VOR, and then descending over Alpha Juliet Oscar VOR.” All of this was standard stuff the controller was giving them the usual information on their landing altimeter settings that sort of stuff. The controller asked the crew to report when they entered the holding pattern and when they left it so that he would have a mental image of where the plane was. But unknown to anyone a critical misunderstanding had taken place, the controller never used the word cleared in his transmission. When a controller says “cleared for approach” it means that you can fly the approach, but this controller didnt say that. The pilots assumed that the controller would clear them to descend once they were at the AJO VOR, but the controller had other ideas he was under the assumption that flight 1308 would enter the holding pattern and descend because in his mind he had cleared them to fly the approach and that meant that he had cleared them to descend.
At 8:49 am the plane was at the AJO VOR the captain said “in holding”. The controller just replied with ““Roger, report leaving Alpha Juliet Oscar on radial two four seven for final approach,” this is not what the captain was expecting to hear, he was expecting something along the lines of “please enter the holding pattern you're cleared to descend. But instead the controller told them what to do after they exited the holding pattern. - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
The increase in quality by having matching animation (instead of the random clips) is much appreciated! Please keep up the good work!
Yeah the random clips didn't make sense and would confuse me.
I'm simple, I kept waiting for the planes to crash thinking it was real footage
So true. The random clips were odd and very distracting. This was probably 50x more work, but it dramatically increased the quality!
A polite comment?! Pretty sure that violates YT policies 😊
Yeah, the random clips ruined the videos
Dude tries.
I know a woman who celebrates December 1st as her second birthday. Her mother (who was 3-4 months pregnant at the time) was supposed to be on the flight that day. She worked as a flight attendant but due to morning sickness she called a stand-by colleague who boarded on a doomed flight and died. The other story has to do with a passenger manifest: someone from travel agency who organized the trip blubbered the details and some women found out that their husbands actually took their lovers on a daily trip instead of wives. So what seemed to be the curse was actually a blessing. They were widows but at least they were alive.
This whole situation was a nightmare circus from beginning to end, but I think I'm most gobsmacked by the longstanding undocumented shortcut for approach. With no radar that seemed guaranteed to mess someone up eventually.
Everything is going to mess somebody up eventually, that is why standart procedures are in place, so that numbskull at traffic controll can be like oh they are following standart procedure.
I remember that crash. As a matter in fact, the interest for that one day trip was so great that Inex wasn't sure who was on board and who wasn't, so for few days afterwards the names of all people registered for the flight was rolled on the television to determine who's dead and who's not...
According to Wikipedia, some bodies were not long ago recovered or disposed of.
Damn that is fucked up
@@bmc9504 Not actual bodies, as those were recovered after the crash in 1981, but fragments of human remains were found in the cleanup in 2008. Many parts of the plane (some quite big) were also recovered in 2008, in total about 27 tons of plane parts were recovered. The action was financed by the Slovenian government and the travel agency Kompas which was the agency that organised the fatal flight.
@@destroier920 thanks for your reply!
I was a USAF controller, and I'm always amazed by these crazy approaches and subsequent crashes. Why in the world didn't they circle the island counterclockwise and fly straight in approach? It's the altitude below you, not above you, that is important.
I remember when it happened . Information about the child in the cockpit popped immediately . The rest of failures of the pilots and ATC was not presented so clearly in our media at that time. That' s why we have YT now.
Sefe secas se da je to bio seksi let. Mnogi su rekli ne moj muz je u Nisu nije na korzici. I to je uglavnom bila jednodnevna tura jugotursa a svercovali su kerozin. U to doba smo imali par nepar ako se secas.
Shows how much standard phraseology plays a major role in flight safety. Never seen this before, thank you
I used to fly into that airport years back with a 737. It was always demanding either the straight in or, worse yet the circling approach. MAP was 1,5 DME , thereafter you were committed. Makes things worse when you have 3 navaids with the same name but different identifiers and the controller doesn't say which ID
This video is, by far, your best one yet. Excellent narration and matching video and graphics. You are gaining notoriety as an informative air crash reporting channel. I’ve have been watching since you had
I started watching this channel from the beginning. He always brings his A game!
My father actually flew with the same plane (YU-ANA) and most of the crew less than a week earlier also on a charter flight from Greece. If I remember correctly that flight was also chartered by the travelling agency Kompas so even the same tour guides were on that unlucky flight. He knew some of them personally.
We went on a family trip to Corsica and Sardignia in ‘08 and stayed in a hotel and saw Mt. San Pietro in the distance. My father just watched from the balcony and said nothing. As we drove past the mountain he was quiet all the time which was strange to me at the time as I did not know what has happened there as I was to young to comprehend. The thing I also remember was that as we were leaving Sardignia for Venice we got to the airport and found out that the flight was an MD-83 from AlItalia and upon seeing what plane it was my father went all pale and nervous.
To this day I can clearly remember about one week later when we were at home he finally broke down and told me what has happened and why he was acting all strange during our trip…
And that is how I became interested in aviation and also air crashes.
Thanks for the video and the visualisations.
Greetings from Slovenia
MACI Thx for this informative video I remember this crash vividly as I was a sircraft mechanic working at MD @ Long Beach in 70/80s I worked on this aircraft. IIRC this was the 1st DC9-80 that crashed with loss of life and it haunted me until I heard that Pilot error was involved. The Super 80 series got off to a rough start with the crashes of the 2 flight test A/Cs 909 & 917 with neither involving loss of life and were atributed to weather (wind shear) and pilot error (FAA) not design or manufacturer defects. It was the first American civilian aircraft to utilize Digital Flight computers and was one of the quitest planes of it's time both on ground and in the cabin as the engines being in rear of the plane. Sad to see that with covid impact on air travel most of the Mad Dogs are being removed from scheduled service.
Lol quite at the time? Probably In flight it’s fine but I always knew when an md80 was taking off because of how dam loud it was. Maybe was due to the shorter runway but they were really loud
Bloody ridiculously complicated ATC information!
ATC: *reads entire world history to pilot* "copy?"
that ATC need to be criminally charged
@@wansichen3743 they pilots were just as responsible...
I agree -- I'm not a pilot, but it seems like far too much info to handle all at once.
@@nihlify Maybe, but they had their punishment.
It’s like a foreign language.
It was as if no one was taking what they were doing seriously. Kids sharing seats, a kid in the cockpit, pilots not sure where they were, yet they were flying into a difficult airport, with mountains all around. 🤦♀️
I admit I’ve been bingeing on the videos lately but that is the 3rd crash I’ve seen caused (partly) by a kid being in the cockpit. Holy hell. Next time I fly I think I’ll ask if the pilot’s rug rats are on board. 😳
@@traceeteeter9875 - HONESTLYYY 😳🤦🏻♀️✈️👶🏼🚫
@@KabbalahSherry Right?
It was 1981.
People smoked on planes, and the cockpit door was usually open, and kids could go in and have a look, and would get some toy pilot wings from the pilots as a present. I still have several.
This accident started to happen when the first pilot took a secret route, the rest of them sort of follow sort of not follow. The acorn was that harmless short cut, the oak tree was the crash. Pilots are still planting the acorns.
This is a good analogy
I used to fly on the InexAdria rocket into Split before the war in the Balkans. The pilots flew it like a military jet! The hosties had no sense of humour - if you didnt watch the safety briefing they stopped and poked you in the arm, pointing to the demo. Croatia was lovely and I met my gf there in Dubrovnik. Parents had a pizzeria with a woodfired oven - and ice cold beer....and slivovice! Happy days!
To all those lost in this tragedy may you all rest in perfect peace🙏🏾
I love the older air crashes you've been doing. Keep it up as few channels ever cover them.
This style of video is so much better than other channel's who just do a simulation of the flight and have no narration what so ever. The amount of information presented is very impressive and accurate and his delivery style is terrific. I realize that it requires a lot of time to do the research for one of these videos and it is obvious that the creator has a great talent for it. I enjoy every single video immensely and want to thank you for all of your hard work. This channel is quickly becoming one of the best aviation related channels on TH-cam!! Keep up the good work and thank you for these very informative videos!!
"The controller did not have radar". Since Corsica is a region of France, (which is NOT a 3rd world country), and Ajaccio is the largest of the six airports on the island, plus it is right next to mountains, it seems that they should have radar installed. It is increasingly obvious that small regional airports, especially in poor, or undeveloped nations, cannot neither afford nor are technically capable of such installations. But France should be ashamed of not helping Ajaccio provide this life-saving technology in this case... it would possibly have saved 180 souls!
Two words that terrify me: no radar.
Well if he used standard phraseology as outlined in ICAO then all would've been fine. It's laid out - Command then phraseology eg thousand = thou-sand, nine = niner, decimal = Dacimal. Also many instances within standard phraseology relate to the usage of phrases. Certain word combinations are illegal use of phrases and must never be used as they are ambiguous.
The life saving technology you speak of is another line of defense and not a panacea but your comment reminded me of this other ATC/aircrew ***k up.
There's another 'small misunderstanding' stupid crash where an air traffic controller didn't use standard phraseology initiating a chain of events ending in controlled flight into terrain. It went something like this (not accurate but this example illustrates well enough what happened):
Set the scene: There's an airport that is at say 500' high in this example. It's night. The flight is conducted under the Instrument Flight Rules (IFR), so no visual reference to the ground at all. Navigation is by charts approach plates, onboard equipment, a flight plan lodged with ATC and ATC instructions are given to the flight crew in accordance with the route, the current sector the plane is in, and the flight plan. ATC takes over for vectors and altitude to position the aircraft to land.
Sometimes the landing is a visual approach, sometimes an instrument approach. Many times these approaches (either visual or instrument) are published standard approaches with an approach plate the crew fly once ATC vector the aircraft there.
The terrain under the heading corridor the plane was flying along tops out at 1650' and the plane was 30mn from the airport.
So, the plane is flying level at say 3500' @180IAS and was told by ATC to, 'Descend two/to thousand five hundred.'
That could mean 3x things by my reckoning
a) Descend 2500' feet
b) Descend to, 2500 feet
c) Descend to (a) thousand five hundred
That's non standard phraseology and the crash would've been avoided if the controller had've spoken exactly as outlined in his training to avoid this sort of thing. The ATC controller meant descend to two thousand five hundred feet.
The flight crew thought it meant descend 2500' to 1000' (from the 3500' they were at). The crew were to blame not the controller but the controller had a part to play no doubt.
Firstly, ATC never ever gives a descent instruction the way flight crew interpreted it. ie ATC never flippantly say 'descend 800 feet' to a pilot and never have AFIK - they always give the altitude to descend to, rather than telling the pilot how many feet to descend by - in order to reach an unassigned altitude.This is basic student pilot stuff.
Anyway despite ignoring basic student pilot training they tried to descend the two thousand five hundred feet but at 1600' flew into terrain and everyone was killed.
The ATC instruction was sort of more correct than incorrect but still ambiguous. In short, the aircrew should not have have left the altitude they were at until that instruction was either clarified or someone at least checked the approach plate which they should be well across in the first instance to know that something about the ATC instruction made no sense, esp if interpreted the way they thought! In short it was an illegal phrase the way the crew interpreted it and should never have entered their head since ATC don't give altitude changes like this for the exact reason the crash occurred.
As well, that's what MSA/LSALT (Minimum Sector Altitude/Lowest Safe ALTitude) on the approach plate right there in front of the aircrew is there for. The plane is approaching an airport under the IFR (Instrument Flight Rules). The approach plate is out.
You can't just defer to ATC to do all the work for you. It is the PICs (Pilot in Command) role to maintain situational awareness and a safe flight at all times. That's why there's two aircrew on the flight deck since it is more than one person can easily manage when maneuvering to land.
The flight crew even failed to notice what they thought they were told to do was in fact illegal due busting MSA by a negative value no less, indicating either they didn't know or care where they exactly were because an ATC controller had their back.
Of course the controller couldn't care less as he was sloppy and it was just another routine approach.
Not really the controllers fault but ?? - I wouldn't want to be him.
Again, just an example, not accurate, probably all wrong, but a crash similar to this did occur.
Everyone makes mistakes, but systems are in place to mitigate them.
Nothing can be done to stop stupidity.
@Hypercube Jones - Good point. I thought I could Google to find out if they now have radar - but can't seem to find out anywhere.
@Hypercube Jones All airports have two codes, one from the AITA(IATA) and one from OACI, like CDG and LFPG for Paris Charles de Gaulle, the OACI one being the one used by all concerned with flying, the other more like a "commercial" one.
Ajaccio has a radar now, and ADSB, but just be reminded that occured FORTY years ago!
Very sad indeed. Exellent video.
In my view if pilots studied the approach before they left and memorised or even double check the min holding altitude, holding speed and times to turn, they would be safe. And with the hold, they would have had time to discuss with the ATC their position and approach, to clear up confusion since clearly the was some.
Airport also could have a better and safer approach by doing the hold and decend over the water but still use the vor as ref, instead of holding at the vor.
The Control tower's assumption of the aircraft to take
a shot cut was not conveyed to the pilot. This was the
first critical error. It was the control tower that sent
the aircraft off course. 100% control tower error.
Nice to see a crash covered that is often overlooked. I believe this was the first MD-80 hull loss, as the type was brand new at the time. Please continue covering crashes that are less known or have received less publicity. Thanks!
This channel has come such a long way since it first started.
More information, proper aircraft pertinent to the actual event! Kudos. I’m glad I stuck with you ✈️!
Sad that such incompetence kills so many people. Remember to take your job seriously, even if it’s easy to become complacent
Personally I believe if Ajjacio had radar installed this sad outcome will never happened..
Dude the way you present these disasters is just absolutely phenomenal.
Thanks Richard!!
Like air crash investigation but u can binge watch it
Challenge accepted.
@@digitaltrekkie kk
You say it like it's a bad thing!
@@yazikhodayar You need to get over yourself
??
Another great video by a great channel!
I really love the fs animations too!
I like it more than those random photos and videos you used to show.
Keep up the good work my friend!!
Always delighted when I get a notification for another of your excellent videos! By the way, your English is really good, if you hadn't told us I would assumed you were a native speaker.
wait he isn't native speaker? wow
@@fjlkagudpgo4884 I can hear the cadence of the sentences being off for a native speaker and the pronunciation is not 100%there yet. He’s doing great but from the get-go I knew he didn’t speak English as a first language.
Great to see your channel growing and loving the new format. Keep up the good work.
Your latest videos are really good! I like that you're giving attention to other incidents than the (by now common) 'Air Crash Investigation/MayDay' subjects.
Good job!
It is striking how many crashes have poor ATCPilot/Co-Pilot communication as a major part of the cause. No wonder automation and technology such as GPS were and are pushed with such force. The even more scary part is often the mistakes are very small or not even technically mistakes, but ambiguous phrasing which given different nationalities and backgrounds creates gaps in understanding wide enough to fly a 747 through....
The slightest of erroIrs also having KId in the cockpit ? Flying over such mountainous territory, all added to the confusion, During my Approach Controller days in the fifties/sixties in the Midle East, the technical advantages which are common today were unheard of, we had what was known as By Jet and By God, Primitive Radar (compared with today) poor quality VHF especially in the Middle Eastern nations, e.g OIII, LTAB etc and often many of the Middle Eastern Airlines were, in themselves, offering rides into oblivion, safety appeared of little concern.Many of such problems were, eventually addressed but nevertheless, there are still degrees of poor technical input, especially with the smaller Airlines.
It is mind boggling how many accidents into terrain happens just because pilots do not react straight away to the warnings ! One second can make the difference between life and death !!
This and a Russian Aeroflot A310 had a kid in the cockpit which led to disasters. As a teen in the 60s, I was able to sit in the jumpseat of a Fanjet Falcon on a trip from Burbank to Nassau as my friend's dad was the pilot. It was a corporate jet for ARCO Oil. It was a dream come true. I was in the passenger cabin on the way back with a very nice executive of ARCO who didn't mind me tagging along. There was also a nurse/flight attendant onboard. I could see how a smaller child could interfere but I was 17 at the time and just observed without distracting the pilot and copilot. How sad and tragic this was and the ATC should never assume these pilots on a charter flight should know shortcuts. That is why there are rules that you fly by the book.
The ATC and flight crew are supposed to call back instructions to ensure everyone is one is on the same page and understanding.
Hundreds of lives hang in the balance, their fates sealed because no one asked, 'hey, we are here doing this, are you still with us? Ok, cool.'
Another kid in the cockpit? Especially when they were supposed to maintain a _sterile_ environment. Absolutely no conversations or anything else other than landing, approach, procedures, callouts, and checklists.
Thanks for sharing. 😉👌🏼
remember, it was 40 years ago..
This happened in 1981, though. I remember two times the captain let me into the cockpit as a child, though never while landing. Once in a 737 on the ground. The first time was in a small, single-engine craft I flew on at age 6 (my mom was a reporter/photographer for a local paper doing a story) they let me sit on their lap and showed me how the yoke and other things worked and let me "fly" the plane. Then at age 11 9/11 happened and the last time I flew I had to have an explosive residue detecting paper rubbed on my crotch after a full body scan because I had the nerve to be on my period and wearing a pad.
@@peternovak5327
No excuse, no matter how long ago it was. When you have so many people on board and you are responsible for their lives, you don't give kids a sightseeing tour.
Especially on approach to landing when you are the busiest and are meant to be paying attention to instruments, checklists and ATC instructions.
@@pickles3128
On the ground is no big deal and neither is it in a light plane when the only passengers are probably from the same family. Although you could argue that even that is a bad idea. Doing such a thing carrying other passengers is completely irresponsible and unprofessional and would be against every airline's policy.
All it takes is for a young child to freak out and push the yoke and accidentally hit the throttle or shut off the fuel and the plane could quickly end up in a stall or inverted or or a spin or the pilot could hit his head from the sudden motion and be incapacitated long enough for the plane to pick up so much speed that it begins to break up etc...
Non pilots and especially children should never be allowed to sit in a pilot's or copilot's seat or be close enough to touch any controls or switches. It is even illegal for a child to sit on the driver's lap in a car let alone on the pilot's lap.
@@pickles3128 I remember being detained for a short time in Raleigh because, for some odd reason, my briefcase that I was carrying gave a false positive for explosives. They had to open it and check it, obviously finding nothing but papers from a conference I was at during the week.
Wonderful info, as usual! Tragic final tho. Heartbroken for those on board as well as their families.
Minimum safe is there for a reason. They should have maintained 6800ft until they had a visual on the airport. A go around would have been preferable to controlled flight into terrain.
I'm not a pilot, but when I heard that I was wondering why anyone would fly below the minimum safe altitude (?). Perhaps there are legitimate reasons, but it seems like something that would be more of a requirement than a recommendation.
@@dmhendricks The video explained it... there was a child in the cockpit who distracted the pilots during the approach briefing. They didn't hear the stated minimum safe altitude, which changes based on the area (obviously, because some areas are completely flat while others are mountainous)
"had to switch to a bigger plane because so many people" "not worry about weight restrictions" oh this is gonna end well
Plus “Children had to share a seat”!! That’s ridiculous!
non of which had anything to do with why the plane crashed.
@@MegaBluebone Soft factors always play a part, and a shitshow like this is full of things that negatively impact your readiness and ability to react properly. There's a really, really good reason that most reputable companies do their best to cut down on disruptions like these.
@@martynh5410 That had no effect on the accident. As explained in the video, passengers were traveling without luggage, so absolutely no way that they could have exceeded the overall weight limit.
That is what you do when you have too many passengers, you switch to a larger plane. Just logic. In case you didnt figure it out, larger plane means a plane that can carry more passengers.
Good one! I enjoyed it and I could listen while I was working (work from home) and then just glance to see things.
My diploma thesis at faculty of mechanical engineering - aeronautics science - was the technical survey of this accident and possibility of reoccurrence with modern aircraft's systems - docplayer.si/205550866-Tehni%C4%8Dna-raziskava-letalske-nesre%C4%8De-leta-inex-adria-aviopromet-jp1308.html - and I can confirm your analysis is quiet accurate. Beside the fact that our pilots didn't follow multiple GPWS warnings (first CM1's response 8secs after initial aural warning and if it was only a second earlier, they would overfly), they also briefed the procedure badly. There wasn't a proper approach briefing made (as per CVR transcript) and they also missed both crucial info on that chart - MHA and max IAS in pattern. There were strong N-NW winds that day which pushed trajectory way to the SE and extended that outbound leg further to the SE towards mountain terrain. Also, they didn't do the correct outbound timing, as they didn't take wind into account. In procedural control they should follow chart first, regardless controller's clearance for descend to platform alt. It was (too) relaxed day not just for travellers, members of local travel agency, but also for pilots themselves, if we take into account first time flying to AJO which is nowadays CAT B or C difficulty for most of airlines, and flying into thick clouds with noticeable winds. Btw, CM2's son was also in the cockpit on jumpseat at the time of accident. My grand-grandma told me many stories about her co-workers losing their lives that day, my father lost his schoolfriend there. It was a sad days for Slovenian aviation. The most brutal part is that some human and aircraft remains remained on mountain until organised expedition in 2008, almost 30 years after crash. But as from all of them, aviation learned something from this one - jeppsen updated their charts with better terrain markings, AJO got radar and changed stars away from terrain, also the holdings. This one holds lots of stories. May all of them rest in peace...
My fathers cousin was one of the pilots, who died, he was travelling as a passenger
Thank you for covering this. Consider covering Zagreb mid-air 1976
yeah i want him to do that
I went to the summit where the crash happened yesterday, there's still a fuselage section and some little parts of the plane left at the point of impact. A rock of about 2x4 meters flew a dozen of meters away from the summit when the wing hit. But the most impressive part is a long crack (4/5cm deep) in one of the rock (I'm talking about granit) with metals stuck in the rock. If the plane flew 3/4 meters higher, it would have been fine, that's sad.
Wow.
I love how you upload at snack time perfect time for watching vids
Well done. Good quality graphics, narrative
Controller: 1308, your position?
Pilot: By the fireball, prick.
This is truly a mix of errors on both the crew and control side of things! It is quite interesting to hear about crashes like these! Awesome video too!😸😸
Fantastic video - tragic story. Thanks for posting this.
Woop woop!
Heck yeah you know its gonna be a good day when MACI uploads!
Your Videos are really enjoyable. The only problem with them is that there are to few. ^^
Also I think the new video footage is a good addition. Before I mainly listend to the videos rather than watching.
Same here! At first I was merely playing his videos in the background when doing stuff, nowadays I pay full attention!
Great channel. Thanks for your work. 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
What a mess! I don't fly commercially, but I have my basic licences. Sometimes it seems like aviation is quite regulated, and there is a lot of standardization, but it's not always the case. Flying at different airports, there are different "cultures". It might just be small things, but not always. Also, you would think that basically all flight instructors are going to teach the basics the same, but they don't. Ideally, things would be quite standardized. While doing most of my training at one particular airport, we would use the phrase "simulated echo" with the tower if we wanted to practice an emergency landing. It's illegal to use the word "emergency" over the radio when there is no real emergency, so we used "echo" (the way to say "E" for emergency). I then switched over to a different company in a different region at a different airport. I was instructing and wanted to practice a "simulated echo" with my student, but the guy in the tower had a mini fit. He had no idea what I was asking for, asked me where I used that phraseology, then proceeded to passive-aggresively put down that part of the country where I used to fly. There are also all sorts of local landmarks around specific airports that the locals always use, but that aren't included in charts and diagrams of the area. You'll get controllers telling pilots to report at certain locations, but there's no way the pilot knows where they are if they're not a local.
HELLO THERE YOUNG MAN.
I'VE HAD TO GO BACK FOUND FOUR I MISSED.
Glad to have you back Ronnie!
The Terrain Pull Up warning seems to come way too late for a lot of these doomed pilots to respond in time.
Hello!!! Doesn’t make a damn sense. What’s the point of the “pull-up” warning, when it doesn’t give you enough time to react.
Wow, both the controller and the pilot assumed too much! The fact that there's so many lives in the line and the ones responsible for those lives are assuming is scary.
What a tragic set of circumstances - it would be very easy for such confusion to develop with just about any crew who were unfamiliar with that rather complex approach. Having the child there was certainly the last hole in the Swiss cheese - sad.
BTW Thank goodness for EGPWS.
Great video!
I realize it's been done since the beginning of manned flight, but just amazing to me that more aviation accidents didn't occur during the days before precise radar. Can't imagine ATC having no idea where a plane is located. Regardless, very appreciative of the work done by Admiral Cloudberg. The stories on Medium are simply fascinating and frightening.
Very good analysis.
Great video! To me, it is shocking to hear in so many videos like how many crews do *nothing* when the terrain warning goes off. Why do pilots ignore it? If you are in the clouds and cannot see outside, and you hear, "Terrain!" the FIRST thing you should do is push those throttles all the way and *climb*, baby! Yet so many crews do not. Very sad.
This was a problem of task saturation and resource management.
@@tissuepaper9962 they handled well the task saturation XD
No it's not a matter of task saturation, it's a matter of proper training to do the right thing immediately, communication could be handled later on, whatever could be handled later on, but not if you crash!
@@iAPX432 when you're task saturated you just don't hear things sometimes. Somebody could ask you your name and you'd have to tell them to standby. All the training in the world can't help you if you just don't process the warning in time.
Love your channel bro
I used to fly the Inex Adria 'rocket' a lot in the late seventies/early eighties. Some interesting landings I can tell you!! They flew them like military fighter jets!
Oh, you're Admiral Cloudberg! I saw the hand-drawn image in the slideshow and was like "man I hope this guy credited Admiral Cloudberg", turns out it's the same person. I've been binging your videos even before I found your Reddit series. Keep up the good work!
No, it's not the same person, this person thanked Admiral Cloudberg for letting him use the images. And Admiral Cloudberg has stated on reddit that he doesn't make youtube videos.
Simply splendid job.
Great work as usual
Thanks !
Nice job as always, good sir.
Never heard of this one. Well done
The VOR driven flight without ground radar observation is a recipe for disaster and should be limited to small planes. Another accident of a major US airline at south America was due to incorrectly VOR setting: it was initially set, then erased and then incorrectly re-entered during flight.
Fantastic story, using the facts and findings from investigations.
Very nice work mate
Thanks!
keep up the good work
Quality content sr !
There is still progress to be made to make landing procedure absolutely clear and colloquial procedures with new crews on the particular route.
faaar from innocent distraction!
and apart from the breach of 'sterile cockpit' environment...
...it is rather disconcerting when non standard terminology or idiosyncrosies crop in.
Like, i think, the word 'roger' was depreciated after some accident (this accident¿) and the term 'affirm' was made standard protocol.
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and being from Bharat wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhārat_Gaṇarājya .. i/we can relate to.. what having dozens of dialects, accents or local terms feels like. . so travelling across Europe too would have similar 'human' issues.
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yes another nicely👌 presented mini capsule documentary🙂
i'm a pilot and as far as i know roger is stili in widespread use. quite a few people use copy as an alternative.
Sometimes I ask myself if some controllers are really happy with their jobs.... Seriously, some controllers keep forgetting or denying their responsibility. Should have chosen another field to work in.
Hello mini air . I like the new addition of flight sim gameplay . Also I find the fact that the plane was fully packed was unsafe I wouldn't be surprised if this airline got shut down because of their lack of safety .
Thanks for your kind words
@@MiniAirCrashInvestigation what is your thoughts on mh370 do you think it True that it's near Australia.
I've watched heaps of these Air Crash Investigations, and it appears to me that in 100% of the cases the ground proximity warning sounds too late to recover the plane. Why don't the manufactures make it sound earlier so that the pilots have time to save their asses? I've never seen a ground proximity alarm sound where the pilots have managed to save the plane yet!
This was the 1980s, the ground warning radar wasn't as good back then.
And many airports would create false warnings, as there you have to fly relatively close to terrain to land or take off.
Given the lack of experience the crew had with the airport, I'm gobsmacked the captain let a child be in the cockpit during the landing.
Bad time for a 'misunderstanding'. Poor child in the cockpit. Must have been pretty terrifying near the end.
it was recorded, he screamed “Daddy, Daddy!” And his father was silent and then he said:” Its over, Its ov……………………………..
It's interesting how, sometimes seemingly minor things can have such huge consequences 😐 no wonder safe operation requires so much regulation.
I’m definitely going to subscribe due to the comments of your loyal supporters
VERY GOOD VIDEOS , THANKS
This could probably have all been avoided in the very beginning if the Captain asked the controller if they were cleared for the approach when they reached the vor. He then would have flown the procedure as depicted on the chart if he knew he was cleared for the approach. I recall asking controllers if I was cleared for an approach if they didn’t specifically say it many times.
You don't "verify" a terrain warning. You pull as hard as you can without stalling and apply full power and verify retracted speed brakes.
It’s very sad to ever hear a plane has gone down, but a simple misunderstanding over one word is even sadder. I’m not going to say, this was a great video, but it was interesting to see your info. You don’t judge fault. You explain it in layman’s terms.
I am now addicted. These are gripping little documentaries. Not sure I will be flying again this lifetime.
Have you ever thought about doing the flight from Airplane! for April Fool's?
LOL...
That would be funny.
Gladiators, Auto-Pilot
and stop calling me Shirley !!!!
Yes, and I quickly realized just how stupid that would be.
Wowsers!! That sounds like a really good idea.......
"Excuse us ATC our terrain warning went off, we are ascending on the QT" is kind of what I'd expect the pilots to think, as they did it. Not "Huh, what was that about runways?". Priorities, man. Get lost in a cloud near mountains, no radar, no GPS, you better be ready to act quick if, EEEEEK!, you hear that. That is a 💩 your pants moment.
Then, "Now where did you think we were? Excuse us, we're lost."
And ATC would be like "whoaaaa we were guiding them into a mountain."
By the way how could the pilots figure out where they were, in a case of such lostness? Once high enough to clear any mountain in the vicinity?
awesome video :)
Hey man I really like your series. Ever thought about covering NLM Cityhopper flight 431? It's a pretty interesting one.
Yes that’s right
I don't know. That ending or investigation conclusion sounded like they were finding ways to blame the pilots... The pilot confirmed turning inward.. but they didn't say which inward... huh?... I think it started when ATC ASSUMED they were going to do the shortcut like everyone else. Unfortunately, these pilots were not aware of the shortcuts ... I agree that a child should not have been in the cockpit.
Edit. After watching another video on this, from the initial GPWS warning Terrain Terrain, it took the pilots 9 seconds to respond. According to that video, if the pilots have just reacted to at least 1 second earlier, it would allow them to fly over the top of the mountain. Looking at the actual picture of the mountain top & the crash, they were so close to just missing it. So close!
Some of the confusion could have been eliminated by proper study of the arrivals chart and crew briefing on such. They also should have had the CT NDB tuned in to the direction finder. They would have been able to identify the CT as it should have been in the brief, plus the NDB Needle would show clearly the direction of Charlie tango. Plus another incident of kids in the cockpit at a very high workload situation.
Well said
In all these controlled flight into terrain. The GPWS seems to never signal fast enough for anyone to do anything. It's like the planes saying btw your about to crash and there is nothing you can do about it.
At least in this case, it probably warned them fast enough, but they were distracted by other things and missed their window.
I don’t know the details, but there have been improvements made to terrain warning systems over the years. Even modern glass-cockpit general aviation aircraft will often have simulated virtual terrain. I think once such technology makes it into all airliners we’ll not see CFIT anymore.
@@fltof2 Except if the pilot becomes a murderer as happened with the German Wings incident.
@@fltof2 Well in that C-130 crash somehow they thought it was ok to fly with TAWS disabled. The mountain disagreed with them.
True. There is a distinct difference between flying with only VORs and GPS-driven moving maps where the terrain is superimposed on the PFD, however. While I’m sure that technology can be defeated with other failures as children of the magenta line manage themselves into hillsides, I suspect rarely will a pilot fly an aircraft below 1,000’ AGL in mountainous terrain if (s)he sees yellow all over their PFD.
great job!
You forgot to mention that Ajjacio did not had radar which will be one of the barriers to small stepping stones which led to this sad tragedy, we are speaking of 1981, not 1951...
He briefly stated that they didn't have radar, but I do agree that it was understated as a factor leading to the two different situational pictures in the minds of the pilots and ATC.
@@revenevan11 Thank you for correcting me, I missed that part :-)
He did say they didn't have radar.
Not having radar on such an airport was quite normal in the early eighties.
The lesson, never assume things.
ATC: "Flight 1308, what is your position?" Pilots: "ATC, upside down on this mountain side in pieces"..I'm never flying to any airport in Italy, at least until my life insurance is paid up.
Do you actually listen to the cockpit recordings when you do these? If so, i don't envy you. I've heard some pretty devastating stuff on planecrashinfo.
These are the things that make me so scared to fly IFR. I can't imagine flying IFR into a nee airport. Especially one with a challenging approach like this.
Why did the terrain warning come when the pilots barely had enough time to react to it? This seems to have happened in several other incidents too.
you cant have too much false alarms because they will be seen as an annoyance and they will ended up not reacting.
i think it sound with plenty of time,firts the "too low terrain" and then,when you barely have a few seconds,the "pull up".
if you react to the first when it sounds instead of wandering what its going on and why it is sounding you will save it with no problem.
but...
in fact,i find pretty common on this type of videos,that pilots tend to see those alarms as errors.
seems like the joke:
-why you landed without the landing gear?
-dont know,there was an alarm sounding that didnt allow me to think clearly.