Can A Plane Fly Too High? (West Caribbean Airways Flight 708) - DISASTER BREAKDOWN
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ย. 2022
- If you found this video to be interesting, be sure to subscribe as there is a new video every Saturday. This video also went out to my Patrons on Patreon 48 hours before going out publicly. Consider joining here from £1 per month: / disasterbreakdown
Twitter: / chloe_howiecb
Music/Personal Channel: / @chloehowie
Twitch: / chloe_canaria
Flying high above South America, this passenger plane flew into some serious problems. On board were 160 people. The pilots were left confused as an unfolding crisis meant the plane was falling from the sky in the middle of the night and the two pilots diagnosed the problem differently. The plane fell to the ground at a high speed, in this video let’s examine the events leading up to where things began falling apart. We’ll be able to pinpoint the origin of the crisis that lead to a disaster that claimed so many lives.
West Caribbean Airways was a relatively short lived airline that operated in the years between 1998 and 2005. West Caribbean started as a charter airline connecting Colombia with various islands in the Caribbean. Based out of Bogota and Medellin, the air carrier expanded and also operated domestically within the country with a fleet of very small turboprop planes. As the airline grew over the following years, the airline acquired three McDonnel Douglas MD-80 series airplanes.
![TREASURE - 'KING KONG' COMEBACK SPECIAL [THE TREASURE SHOW]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Jx1wyMaQzf0/mqdefault.jpg)
If you found this video to be interesting, be sure to subscribe as there is a new video every Saturday. This video also went out to my Patrons on Patreon 48 hours before going out publicly. Consider joining here from £1 per month: www.patreon.com/DisasterBreakdown
Twitter: twitter.com/Chloe_HowieCB
11:17 Having such additional debriefs as these and not just letting is be a podcast based on final reports.. is what makes Disaster Breakdown special, better and different.
.
Thank you for the detailed yet crisp explanation.
Hiya Chloe! 🤗
It would be much more interesting with the voices of the pilots.
Thanks for the hard work you do it shows you have great videos
14:28
"Those who lived-"
Oh someone lived!
"- close by to the crash site arrived to discover a scene of total devastation with no survivors."
Oh. Well, shit.
The plane was descending at probably around 200-300 ft/s (from 12000ft/min and accelerating) or in the ballpark of 150mph/250kph. The gforces alone here are simply not survivable, but it would likely be a very quick death
THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT I'M LIKE WOW SOMEONE...oh..um...
@@sage5296 The passengers probably wouldn't have even recognized they were falling out of the sky....just a funny feeling in your stomach, then done.
In remembrance to the victims:
Captain Omar Alberto Ospina Marin, 40
First Officer David Muñoz Tavarez, 21
Technician Wilman Alejandro Estrada
Technician Edgar Alberto Jerez Cortes
Flight Attendant Wilson Giovanni Fallachi Chacón
Flight Attendant Gustavo Adolfo Garcia Perez
Flight Attendant Angela Patricia Peña Valencia, 20
Dispatcher Jhon Jairo Buendia Rodriguez
Chantale Amant
Bernard Antiste
Clara Antiste
Claude Armede
Noa Bahlit
Christiane Bapte
Mireille Bapte
Sylvain Bapte
Thomas Bapte
Lucien Baray
Minette Baray
Marie-Josee Belay
George Berisson
Paul Berisson
Hector Bermont
Francis Berton
Marie-Pierrette Berton
Liliane Boura
Marie-Andree Bourton
Ghislaine Burnet Verin
Marie Pierre Cabare
Catherine Marie Cabrera
José Cabrera
Mailys Catorc
Eugène Chassol
Georgette Chassol
Esther Colonnette
Alex Coloras
Monique Coloras
Eliane Cossou
Luc Bernard Cossou
Raphaëlle Couffe
Robert Couffe
Danielle Croisy
Victor Croisy
Guy Delahaye
Alex Desir
Raymond Dijon
Matrice Druze
Marie-Jospehe Duranville
Eugenie Ensfelder
Jeannine Esther
Emilie Etifier
Evelyne Eudaric
Therese Fabien
Carmen Felicite
Raoul Felicite
Christian Filin
Myrlene Florine
Joseph Galbert
Marie-Eugenie Galbert
Andre Germany
Delphin Germany
Nelly Germany
Rosemonde Germany
Gisele Hierso
Vernier Hierso
Mirette Fanny Hierso
Maurice Hierso
Alex Hospice
Liliane Hospice
Max Iphaine
Antoinette Jabert
Kelly Jacqui
Patrick Jacqui
Carmille Jacqui
Velaine Jean Francis
George Jeremie
Jhoanne Joachim
Marie Elizabeth Joachim
Jimmy Joachim-Arnaud
Marie J. Joseph-Boniface
Lucien Kelban
Mauricette Kelban
Arsene Kimper
Clement Lacrampe
Yolaine Lager
Renée Lagier
Freddy Lanoir
Germany Laurent
Yohan Laurent
Christian Legendart
Severine Lenogue
Celine Luce
Lucienne Luce
Raphaël Magloire
Benedicte Mainge
Hubert Mainge
Jocelyne Mainge
Max Mainge
Viviane Mainge
Elodie Maquiaba
Laure Marie Antoinette
Berlin Marie Luce
Marcel Marie Luce
Maëva Massal
Max Massal
Murielle Massal
Nicolas Massal
Angelo Mauconduit
Lisette Mauconduit
Christian Montlouis Felicite
Marie Odile Montlouis Felicite
Mireille Moutai
Serge Nal
Gabriel Nancy
Huguette Nancy
Andrè Noleo
Claudine Paquet
Sylviane Pavilla
Lydie Pelage
Henry Pepinter
Rose Pepinter
Alix Peters
Marie-Claude Peters
Abdon Joseph Pierre-Louis
Laurence Pierre-Louis
Evelyne Porro
Erick Rainette
Maguy Rainette
Denis-Marc Ramin
Marie-Louise Ramin
Gerty Raphose-Gombe
Therese Raphose
Valere Urbain Raphose
Juanita Regis
Hugutte Robin-Galbert
Berthe Roch
Jean Michel Rosamon
Jocelyne Saffache
Luce Sainte-Rose
Marcel Saxemard
David Scaglioni
Georgette Sebastien
Ginette Seraline
Gislaine Surin
Marie-Annick Taupin
Anthony Toulon
Gabrielle Toulon
Aimee Valence
Andre Valquin
Viviane Velayoudon
Sohan Venkatapen
Michel Venkatapen
Nadine Venkatapen
Anicet Victorin
Raymonde Vigilant
Lucien Violton
Marie-Louise Voisin
Christiane Voyer
Felix Voyer
Karine Zongo
Updated as I had found a clear picture of a memorial that listed everyone*
@@lostvictims9769 thank you for this, very sweet and kind of you 💚
You can copy and paste, well done
@@kd3283 imagine getting mad at someone and seething because they posted a list of crash victims for everyone lmao
absolutely pathetic in many ways
@@leeonardodienfield402 Who’s mad and seething ? I was congratulating
This one had a slightly more complex explanation than normal I really enjoyed the deeper look into the physics and how they interact with the engines
WCA was also delaying the salary to the staffs, and Captain Ospina even had to work a bar and was coming off a shift before boarding this plane.
That's the definition of working yourself to death. He and everyone else might have lived if he had quit.
That’s really shocking. I know this was pilot error but I feel very sorry for everyone who died in this accident. Wanting to cruise at 35,000 doesn’t sound like it might be too high and it doesn’t seem like the pilots had been given adequate training.
@@moiraatkinson Sounds like he shouldn't have been flying that plane. No proper rest and work right before the flight.
It's very typical for countries with so called "peripheral capitalism" (South America, Africa,exUSSR republics, some Asian countries).
@@HappyBeezerStudios I wouldn't blame the pilot as his desicion to work before the flight wasn't voluntary. I remember working at 3 jobs to make ends meet in Russia in 1990-s and I wasn't a cleaner or laborer. I was a highly skilled engineer but salaries were extremely low so I had no choice. That time I had constant headaches, lack of sleep and chronic fatigue. Now imagine that pilot in a similar situation. I am not surprised that they crashed the plane.
There is an escape manoeuvre that can be flown from a super stall which involves banking the aircraft 90º to re-establish airflow over the tail. It does require pilots to recognise the situation quickly and immediately initiate the recovery procedure. It is unlikely to be successfully accomplished without the loss of 15,000 feet in altitude. Hence the need for swift reaction to the problem.
Yeah super stall recovery is not possible with most planes, especially if the pilots don't immediately respond correctly (which honestly.... you just cannot expect them to instantly know whats happening, humans don't work like that under pressure)
Yeah, hard roll will let the tail push the nose down and reestablish stable forward movement, which can at least possibly pulled out of.
That said. Armchair analysis and all that. Hindsight is 20/20.
I was wondering about that! Even if it induces a spin, it could get the airflow going back into the engines and over the tail surfaces.
It should be noted that tunnel vision probably contributed to the lack of response from the captain. Between the stickshaker, red “STALL” light on the panel, the CAWS supplemental stall recognition system sounding klaxons and calling out, “STALL sᴛᴀʟʟ”, and even the copilot saying, “Es el stall, Capi,” (“It’s the stall, Captain,”)…hard to imagine that the captain would have ignored that. If he was hyper-focused on the abnormal engine values like EPR, however, everything else was probably diminished. And as you mentioned, once the AoA got into an extreme angle and the plane entered a deep stall, recovery was virtually impossible.
So there was no way to push the nose down to regain airflow and arrest the stall?
@@AaronHarberg in a deep stall, the elevators no longer have air to work. So basically, no way to correct.
@@jst7714 would turning withe rudder, or banking restore some flow to tail to regain attitude control to level out?
@@michaelplunkett8059 I’m not a pilot, so I’d say it probably wouldn’t hurt. Even though, deep stalls are usually considered fatal.
@@AaronHarberg If I remember correctly the control surfaces need smooth airflow over them to generate force the and that force generated is affected by the air speed, direction, pressure and temperature (been a long time since I studied ideal gas law), and other factors of the air passing around it, and with turbulent airflow for whatever reason or air flowing in the wrong direction due to extreme angles of attack they generate little or no force. An aircraft falling into it's shadow or at an extreme jaunty angle is going to have little or no control surface force at which point you're in a very sticky situation with little ability to return to a safe configuration.
I can tell how much I've learned from your channel, because as soon as you mentioned the "cavity of air," I guessed right away that the T-tail design played a part.
This reminds me of something I learned during a track driving event I participated in. The instructors taught us how to draft during high speed runs on the oval, and while it's great for building speed to pass, we were reminded to monitor our engine temps closely since airflow to the radiators is essentially blocked.
As always, excellent work. Keep it up!
- Aldairion
I drove I-94 for too many years and I learned about drafting and cavities of air around big vehicles
I never really thought about the cooling issues caused by drafting
@@JgWerd It only starts becoming an issue at sustained high speeds
i did fly with West Caribbean. We travelled to San Andrés for my sister's 10th birthday.
Same year the accidents happened and therefore the airline ceased to exist.
We wen't out there in January, I wonder what the real state of the MD-80s we flew on was, since they were grounded after the L410 accident in march...
I remember watching the Air Crash Investigation episode about this years ago. Absolutely terrifying situation. Thank you for the video!
Forget if it's this or the SOL flight, but one of the two was so crowded it had passengers in the jump seat in the cockpit.
That always stuck out to me as one of those weird facts, such as how crowded is a flight when that is how passengers are booked into the jump seat...
It was this one I think
The scary thing is if they got so greedy they sold the pilots chairs as part of the flight and forced the pilots to stand or some crap...
Pilot: Hey, dude with your left foot on my rudder, MOVE!!!
Pretty sure it was this one
In the U.S. of A.. overbooking is a practice still.
.
Infesi regions (Soutj Asia).. at-least in Indian.. it has been a while since (I think) Airlines have either been disallowed to themselves gradually phased out overbooking.
.
However even here (in India) and some shoddy airlines in neighbouring countries (say Pakistan l) .. it isn't that uncommon to come to know of companies sweeping the muck under the carpet and/or openly flouting flight safety norms.
.
I mean.. PIA (Pakistan International Airways) case of the international flight with more PAX than seats.. is infamously reported everywhere.
The arsenal cockpit crew actually deemed it okay to not divert to go back to base.. despite being aware that (may be poor or from less affluent background) PAX in the cabin are literally even standing or sitting on the floor.
@@sailaab While the US does still overbook, they refuse to depart an aircraft with passengers not in proper (cabin) seats, so people will either volunteer to take a later flight, or they might get involuntarily bumped to a later flight and then get compensation for it. Only other flight crew are allowed to fly in jump seats.
Pulkovo flight 612 involving a Tupolev 154 crashed in this same way. It is scary to think how dangerous it is when a T-tail plane stalls because you need airflow over the horizontal stabilizers to pitch your nose down and recover from the stall.
Also I feel like manufacturers should make the pylons of engines able to change pitch instead of welding them to the fuselage. This would help in recovering from stall situations where the engines are angled upward.
T-Tail aircraft are equipped with a stick pusher to prevent the airplane from reaching the critical angle of attack where the deep stall occurs. The captain was likely pulling against that pusher to keep the nose up. It is designed to yank the yoke forward and force the nose down, but it isn’t so strong that a pilot can’t override in case of an erroneous activation. These systems existed all the way back to the Boeing 727 and Hawker Trident in the 60s.
I always thought that manufactures should have put a parachute in the tail cone, so the pilots in case of emergency could pull the chute to get the nose down than release the chute once the nose is down. That's what bombardier does on it's new test aircraft they have a temporary parachute in the tail cone just in case if the test pilots get themselves into a deep stall, because there is almost no other way to recover from a deep stall you're basically falling in a nose up attitude. But i do remember watching an aviation show and one pilot talking about how one of the test pilots in the 1970's actually recovered from a deep stall by using the ailerons and rudder he got the plane to turn on it's side and the nose slowly started going down and the test pilot actually recovered which was a miracle.
@@AviationNut th-cam.com/video/L2CsO-Vu7oc/w-d-xo.html
11:17 Having such additional debriefs as these and not just letting is be a podcast based on final reports.. is what makes Disaster Breakdown special, better and different.
.
Thank you for the detailed yet crisp explanation.
T-tail aircraft can enter something called a "Super Stall", a type of stall it can't recover from. I read some t-tail planes have a parachute mechanism in the back to lower the nose, but it's not in most of those types of planes. Don't understand why.
Why: Because commercial pilots are trained to avoid flying outside flight envelopes not how to recover from being out of it!
Most likely the risk of a parachute deploying unintentionally and causing a crash would be higher on a commercial aircraft than the risk of deep stall.
Excellent work Chloe! The old T-tail deep stall. Very nice analysis of a subtle situation.
This crash happened two days after the crash of Helios airways flight 522
Actually, West Caribbean Airways Flight 708 is the second deadliest accident involving the MD-80 family. It is however to be more specific, the deadliest accident involving the MD-82.
wouldnt the deadliest accident involving it be the Zagreb mid air collision?
@@potato1907 That was a DC-9.
@@robertmcghintheorca49 fuck
What was the no 1?
@@zikalokof1challenge414 Inex-Adria Aviopromet Flight 1308. That was an MD-81.
Great video, Chloe! Thank you!
A really interesting video. Thank you.
Many factors at play here. Can’t help but wonder if the outcome may have been different if the captain had left the autopilot engaged when the speed started reducing. Recognising it and selecting a decent using the autopilot may have prevented this accident. Priority should always be given to protecting airspeed at high altitude.
It’s so common for pilots to disconnect the autopilot when things start to go wrong. This often serves to increase workload at the worst possible moment. Interestingly, modern training really emphasises leaving the autopilot engaged whenever you can. Windshear and overspeed are classic examples of where the autopilot will serve you well.
Excellent video.
Thanks for the hard work.
Out of curiosity but will you one day consider Architectural disasters if you can
Its certainly something that is worth a try sometime
military air disasters would be a great sub-series too
@@DisasterBreakdown But the question is, how do you simulate building destruction
@@senabecool7232 ms paint of course
@@senabecool7232Legos
This type of accident occured first time during a test flight of the BAC-1-11.
great video, as always!
Great video as always.❤
Thanks!
A question to those more knowledgeable than myself: Why is the T-tail design used at all, if it puts you at risk of a (virtually unrecoverable) deep stall?
The exhaust of rear-mounted engines would hit a traditionally mounted horizontal stabilizer.
Also, the T-tail acts as an end plate for the vertical stabilizer and rudder, which increases efficiency. It’s not a bad design, but like every design, it is a compromise with benefits and trade offs. Also, not all T-tails are subject to locked-in deep stall - it depends on the configuration of a particular airframe type.
All engineering solutions are a compromise, resulting in advantages and disadvantages, in certain scenarios.
@@karljunk6373 but why have rear mounted engines at all then?
@@EA-vd4gd There are answers to that, efficiency, design, particular aeronautic traits that are relatively desirable. It isn't like under wing engines aren't without problems. An under wing engine aircraft can enter into Phugoid cycle if the control surface's cease to function, say under hydraulic failure as in UAF 232. Further, the under wing engines can interfere with a controlled ditching on water. Airplane designs are a series of tradeoffs, with benefits and drawbacks, and it just so happens that rear-engine planes can have issues with lock-in during stall.
Great video! I'm always looking forward to Saturdays because of your content.
So you've done aviation and rail disasters. Would you be open to doing maritime disasters as well one day. I get the feeling that this sounds like I'm getting bored with aviation content but that's not the case. I just think it would be interesting to expand into this topic as well.
Legitimately my favorite way to start a Saturday morning. You do such a great job and humanize the victims while staying succinct. Anytime you want to expand your videos, we will watch!
Another absolutely fabulous video. Thank you so much for the time you put into these. It certainly shows in the final product. I’m so happy to have found your channel! Cheers! ✈️🤙🏻
I get the chills any time ice is mentioned in one of these videos because you know that things are going to go badly with the plane responding in a way that’s unexpected even though there is absolutely nothing actually wrong.
Pun unintended.
It amazes me that aviation operates aircraft so close to the edge of performance. I understand the financial impact of not flying as efficiently as possible but it is quite disconcerting.
Being “young” doesn’t mean that he isn’t experienced. Be careful associating age with ability to fly. My buddy graduated at 18 from high school and was in flight school the next day. He now has over 20 years in and has killed it. Some are born to fly
Nice video about this crash
Thanks for watching!
Could you do Thai 311 and pia 268 next Saturday both these flights crashed just months apart on approached to Kathmandu? please thank you 😊
Thanks for sharing. 😉👌🏻
You're truly a mentor to me. Adoring your videos, Chloe!
It's amazing how poor the communication between the pilots was.
Very odd. I'm sure the failing airline had optimum insurance on the plane that crashed.
Love the videos... just out of curiosity has anyone said you sound like Vincent price ❤️
beautiful and detailed content, on top of that i love Australian accent, which sounds like a bonus to the package. it would be nice to provide a section in the video to discuss recovery methods if any, even speculation could be helpful because it might be picked up by professional pilots and corrected in the comments if need be. like what could have the crew done during that one minute descent to earth to recover from combined stall which seemed both like an aerodynamic stall and a turbulence in engine compressor inlet?
Interesting point- did you know when the wing spoilers are raised on landing it is not primarily for the drag effect it is more to break the air flow over the topside of the wing which then pushes the plane hard into the runway to improve braking
I was so happy when I saw that the West Caribbean Airways video was uploaded! So much of this is scary and sad. The absolute negligence of the airline and the atrocious communication between the pilots wer beyond disturbing.
Question to all Pilots and Airplane Nerds out there:
Loosing engine power and Elevator controll in a stalling scenario sound scary as fuck and pretty deadly.
But what would have been the textbook solution to this?
Using their Ailerons, to roll the aircraft to get airflow to the Elevators? ... or what??
Im not pilot, but id try to roll it a bit on to side and try to regain airspeed when fuselage turns towards ground. But I think it needs to be done before plane befome a leaf. Maybe even after that it would be possible because of the shape of the plane. Ofcourse it would lead to wingstall, but you going down anyways.
Textbook solution is do not stall a t-tail to begin with as deep stall are virtually unrecoverable. All you can do is full aileron and rudder to one side, engine idle on the side you want to roll to with the opposite side at full thrust and then pray that you have enough altitude for any of those measure to do. Your control surfaces and engines will loose effectiveness as the stall deepens. It’s really not a situation you want to find yourself in. I wonder why the stick shaker and pushed didn’t activate in this incident.
That's the first thing I thought. But again, not a pilot, just a physics major.
@@celderian Thx Captain!
Seems even the Airline-School way is quite
"Do this! and pray that it works!!"
To be that guy, it’s “lose” or “losing,” not “loose” or “loosing” - unless it involves making something not tight.
The ailerons/spoilers may also be ineffective, due to the wings also being stalled, and the rudder is likely also ineffective due to the blanking due to the wings/fuselage.
About your comment on the deadliest accident involving the MD-80, it is incorrect, as Inex Adria flight 1308 killed more people. This was still when the plane was called the DC-9-81, but it is still seen as an MD81 aircraft
I can't imagine falling from the sky in the dark 😳
The fact that the wing can disrupt air flow to the engine and the rear tail seems like such a design flaw to me 🤔
Great reporting and storytelling again: Just a slight correction: The deadliest MD-80 crash was the crash of the six-month-old YU-ANA of Inex Adria Airways at the French island of Corsica in 1981 in which all 180 on board perished. Maybe it's worth another Breakdown...
This may be a radical suggestion, but what if the pilots decided to roll the plane upside down to give the engines and the horizontal stabilizer the needed airflow while they had spare altitude to maneuver? Just a thought I had while watching
Surely these planes aren’t built to fly upside down…
I never flew the MD 80 however in the 737 we were trained to not use vertical speed mode in an autopilot autothrottles high altitude climb because of possible airspeed deterioration. I t,honk the low experience level of these pilots was also a factor in this accident.
Reminds me of the Mentour Pilot video with the yolo frat boys who treated a Bombardier CRJ200 (also a rear engine jet) like they were driving their friends new Dodge Charger he got at a brilliant deal of 25% APR! All because they wanted to join the sick ass 41k club!!!
It was a disaster before even leaving the ground.. those poor people had no idea about any of this. Ugh, so sad.
So did this plane reach Coffin Corner!? I don’t know much about this, except that it occurs when planes get too far behind the drag curve (I think!). I really enjoyed it, for some reason Coffin Corner fascinates me. I would also be interested in architectural fails leading to disaster. In fact these videos are so good, if you made one about watching paint dry I’d be interested in watching it!
This plane didn't exactly reach Coffin Corner, it experienced what is known as a Deep stall which typically only occurs on T-tail aircraft. A deep stall is when the aircraft reaches an attitude greater than its critical angle of attack, which fully stalls the wings and depending on the design of the T-tail the turbulent airflow being disrupted from flowing smoothly over the wings effectively creates a dead zone over the horizontal stabilizer and elevators, making it nearly impossible to control or recover the aircraft from the stall, hence why is it common referred to as the "Super Stall". Coffin Corner is describing the point at which the aircraft is simultaneously approaching a high altitude low speed stall and the stall speed defined by the critical mach number of the aircraft. High altitude stall means that due to altitude and airspeed the wings are incapable of producing enough lift to climb further or maintain altitude. The critical mach number refers to the speed at which the localized airflow over any part of the aircraft reaches supersonic speeds, which produces weak shock waves that at speeds greater than the critical mach number will cause the drag coefficient to increase suddenly, cause a dramatic increase in total drag and disrupt the normal airflow over the flight control surfaces leading to deterioration in the control of the aircraft.
@@Cynsham wow thank you! What a superb explanation and a terrific reply - it was really generous of you to take the time to detail the difference between the deep stall this plane suffered and the consequences of flying too high and reaching Coffin Corner.
What software did she you for make this fly simulator
On the Mentour Pilot channel, a similar crash happened in the same circumstances. The plane had flown above its maximum altitude. I cannot remember the exact details, but there were no passengers on board at least (thankfully).
I remember watching that one . An empty 50-seat Bombardier CRJ2000 that was getting flown between airports crashed after the pilots decided to go above recommended altitude to 41,000 ft just cause they could.
@@emmabrien1982turns out they couldn’t
You have to visualize the plane "scooping up" air. You can't just completely rely on the instrumentation. Computers will never fly humans.
West Caribbean 708 isn’t the deadliest incident involving a MD-80 series, Inex-Adria 1308 is
Not understanding the Auto Pilot Modes and their limitations caused many accidents/incidents.
Airbus has a couple mode speed/ climbrate. Open Speed mode trades of climbrate and open climbrate mode trades off speed.
A to low indicated airspeed set in the open speed mode has the danger of flying into the left edge of the coffin.
I wonder if there was ANY way to recover control from that stall... maybe use the ailerons and rudder to alter the angle of the wings relative to the airflow? Could that maybe have helped? - Interesting, I just found another video about a conition calle "Super Stall" which escribes exactly what happened to this M80, that pilot who made the video listed aileron and rudder as possible ways to get out of it but also said it's not guaranteed to work, it's just a possibility that it might be barely enough to work.
The prototype BAC111 crashed due to deep stall. The problem is that the entire tail group is blanketed in turbulent air, as are the engines. What you have is all on the wings, ailerons flaps and spoilers. Would flaps introduce enough pitch change? No idea. I believe some aircraft when deep stalled have the lower portion of the rudder in clean air and it may be possible to use that to rock the tail sideways enough to get some effectiveness into the elevator. Once in deep stall you are effectively stuffed, it’s just somewhere you don’t go. It seems they pushed the aircraft beyond its limits without realising, that’s sort of their job really. The BAC111 had a stick pusher that forced the nose down before the AOA got too high.
Any chance you can do Saudia 163?
Yes, it is on my list.
Deep stall must be a horrific situation. May moving all passengers to the front have helped? 🤔
On your community post I was going to guess this but I thought you already had a video
My favorite part about this video? No computerized voice. Good job.
Never get me on 'ANY' rear engine powered jet, ever!
The horizontal stabs are to small too and doesn't have sufficient authority during landing/flare. A trade off from the fuel saving by the small hor stabs.
It is from MD that Boeing learned to overstretch designs?
Hey Disaster Breakdown, do you have the livery link for the West Carribean airlines livery? If so, can you send a link to me?
What is the first song in the video?
The captain played a big role in this happening
A super-stall is the scariest thing.
what would be the effect if the passengers had all been moved to the front of the plane? would that be enough to get the nose down and regain airflow?
Not if the captain wouldn’t hear it that they were in a stall…
Certain similarities with Air France flight 447
Are T-Tailed aircraft still in commercial use? The fact that a deep stall is essentially an instant death sentence seems like a fairly major design flaw to me.
I'm really astonished by how many planes crashed in this kind of fashion...
DC-9’s and 727’s can have the engines stall/burn in a flat stall with high attitude. The wings block the airflow.
In the 727's case, possibly aggravated by the presence of the third engine with its attendant weight.
Why would panama as a country buy a package holiday?
And how do you recover from that stall situation?
Roll I guess? Seems absurdly dangerous to me, but it is something you can do with the wings even in a stall and it will get the tail clear of the deadzone.
Don't know if such a manourver would be fast enough and it would probably be rather complicated in any case.
In the kind of situation that they were in, I would do full nose down, reduce the rest as not to put too much g on the airplane and slowly pull out as not to enter a high speed stall. Something similar happened with Air France flight 447 when they kept pulling back instead of letting the nose fall.
@@CaptainSmashProductions But how do you put the nose down when you have no airflow over the vertical stabilizer?
@@oskarrasmussen7137 that is what I was thinking. Even reducing thrust would have no effect. Roll, or something with the wings, looks something plausible.
@@oskarrasmussen7137 but they could enter in a spiral dive, maybe.
13:45 you say the vertical speed plummeted. If the vertical speed is dropping that means the plane is getting closer to flying level. If the plane is loosing altitude at a greater and greater amount than the vertical speed is increasing. (Either loosing or gaining altitude, the faster it does the more vertical speed increases) also there is no negative vertical speed.. your either climbing at say 1,300 fpm or descending at 1,300 fpm. Just fyi. Cool video tho
Doesn’t negative vertical speed mean you’re desending
Cool
These seems to be a recurring cause of accidents, AF447 and the Indonesian crash with 12.000 feet decent to mention two.
2:00 terrain a big putty knife
Don't think I've seen 🤔 this before
I'm not able to rightly comprehend the progression of thoughts that would lead someone to think that if an engine failure occurs, the correct response would be to trim the elevators up
If the captain had listened to the first officer, I wonder if things would have been different
how do you mistake your plane plumetting out of the sky at 12000 fpm as an engine failure?? I understand how the leans or a gentle descent can lead a pilot to grossly misjudge their situation but this just seems beyond comprehension. Ive never experienced a stall that had a plane completely falling out of the sky, nor have I felt an engine failure but I cannot imagine they feel even remotely similar.
Honestly confusing the clear extreme downward vertical speed with engine failure when the nose is pointed at the horizon is uh.... questionable
Didnt the same thing happen in Mali or something? another MD80?
Was there no way to push the nose into a dive to regain airflow over the wings??
Not in a stall as severe as this, they realised it too late
You would think if the Capt. thought if the engines had failed, He would look at the gauges to see if this was true.
There should be a policy that if an airline is down to only 1 operational aircraft then the airline is grounded until at least 2 are operating… or grounded indefinitely if necessary.
Why?
Why?
it seems to me, this Captain had no business flying this MD-80 aircraft. I should know, I am a retired MD-80 Captain.
All pilots are taught that you can stall an airplane at any speed but only ONE angle of Attack. We have AOA's in all military aircraft here in the U.S.. Why these have not been installed in commercial aircraft is most certainly a cost issue is the reason. These two pilots should have pushed the nose over long before they stalled. The Captain most certainly should not have been trimming nose up. Why the F.O. did not take control of the airplane, we will never know.
"Those who lived..." *long pause* (me thinking no way anybody survived that) "...closest to the crash site....no survivors."
You could argue that there are other things that fly too high that come from Medallin.
If only the FO had the modern 1500 hours of flight experience instead of 1300, this accident would have never happened!!
There’s much less information but it would be great to analyze the thousands of general aviation accidents that occur yearly.
Astonishing that the pilots were completely speechless during entire descent and never tried flaps either.
Did he ever turn off the de-ice?
I'm serious. And don't call me Shirley.
Gimme a vector Victor.
Was the anti -icing still on?
Now just imagine they would have set flaps to bring the nose down far enough to get the tail responsive again.
Had the captain accepted that they weren’t climbing because they were in a stall to begin with instead of attributing it to a loss of engine power
14:40 as a matter of fact, inex-adria flight 1308 is the deadliest md-80 family accident, not flight 708
High altitude stall caused by the crew's mismanagement of aircraft systems and their lack of knowledge regarding it's impact on performance, leading to an unrecoverable aerodynamic upset. It's eerie common these days. AF447, Air Sweden CRJ, Sol SAAB340, Austral DC9 in Uruguay...
This is gonna sound like an old man yelling at cloud, but I'm 22 and my interest in aviation spans half that and to be honest, pilots of the yesterday were more professional. I'll take a 2,000 hr guy who progressed from Dakotas to 727 over a glorified passenger who rode over 10,000 in 737NG and most of the time was busy with solving logistical and paperwork issues instead of flying, and wondering whether the lowcost employer will fire him next month without notice
Today's pilots are only expected to follow checklists, fill out paperwork, flip switches and make sure they spare every last droplet of fuel for the company. We need back the times where pilot knew every quirk and trait of his airframe, and had a knowledge how its engines, electrics, avionics, flight controls etc work, instead of simple buttonology.
Stick and rudder airmanship is trated as a necessary evil to be passed during training and forgotten, as are aerodynamics, performance limitations etc.
For most people it's just a corporate job, and they don't care shit and don't take pride and responsibility those three or four strips deserve. They should be earned with hard work and presented only to the pinnacle of aviators, as there's no such thing as an average pilot - you're either confident in your skills and do everything at 100%, and give 100% from yourself at all times, or you're a threat who shouldn't be flying. The pilots are just another megacorp yuppies, and are treated as such by the megacorp airlines, who don't give shit about ethos, fire and hire people as they please, delivery pressure on pilots in regards to punctuality or fuel, and demand the rules to be violated
The days when pilots were taught extensive technical details on their aircraft and what did what and how, and the days when it was obvious that in the end, it's down to stick and rudder, everything else is but an addition, need to come back. The days when airline pilots were an elite need to come back. The days when they had powerful unions, strong position in their company and strong ethos, need to come back. We need 1950s aviation back (but with modern safety standards if possible)
Total incompetence by the pilot. The young first officer knew what was going on and the pilot failed to listen to him. Total tragedy :(