Lowther versus the world!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ย. 2024
- This Audio Club Monday is turning into a Lowther-festival!
A little bit too technical and a little off the Monday Audio Club path, but I will have no time to do a proper A.C.M video this weekend.
Links to Lowther drivers shown:
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www.lowtherlou...
My video on the Cube Audio Fc8:
• How to navigate the me...
(Sharing my video, as Cube Audio does not sell the Fc8 anymore, the specs are not on their website any longer.)
Fostex FE204 datasheet:
www.fostexinte...
SB acoustics 8in affordable driver at Madisound:
www.madisounds...
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Greetings, János
Janos, great to hear your talk based upon my comment to you. I pretty much agree with what you have said, I did have the Lowthers in an Acousta, back loaded horn, better bass than the VP in extension, but the large cabinet font meat rubbish imaging, if that's your thing and ultimately my room is too small for the Lowthers to drive in the bass in either the VP or Acousta cabinet. I did think about corner TP1 and did start to spec out a build, but on hearing them, decided my house was too small even if I converted to one room. The other issues with the Lowthers is that you get reflections through the ultra thin paper cone and that muddies the sound, an issues more with the VP than a back loaded horn. The SB Acoustics drivers are currently running in and the sould has changed appreciably, more bass, imaging and speed.. Another issue of the price performance is made in Thailand, rather than handmade in the UK and a plastic chassis. But SB seems to have done a great compromise for the price. I will look at the Lowther PM6A or the DX@ both 8 ohm silver as they are similar and the DX has an even stronger magnet. On the Voigtp pipe, I stateted eith the Lowther clubl of norway design in solid PVC foam as a trial, I thing faster and better than MDF, but the Lowther drop off in my room with the VP meant no bass and then I think possible issues of trying to drive the bass with such low power compared to the high frequencies, even in a flea powered amp. Friction, electrical impedance and capacitance all become more audible. I have tied the Amp camp solid sate amps, people rave about them, not bad, but my 2A3 better in all respects by a country mile. That is why I am looking at the darling amplifier, just an aside, I was a subscriber and have the original of all magazines. TAlking to Lowther's design team suggested the DX2 and a replacement for the EX2's I have and increasing the VP to as long as possible. So I built the max size I could make out of a large sheet of MDF and ha it professionally cut. I clsed the front port, cut a rear port tomallow a back to slide on and keep the same VP profile. Currently experimenting with the output port. Incidentally the two cpart cabinets are decoupled fom eath other and are as live as possible, adding damping killed the sound totally. In my journey I now know that its the single driver sound that I like and although I could not tell you the exact changes for multi drivers, I feel taht the change in driver and crossover components are what turned me off classic HiFi. I always felt a huge disconnect between the tweeter and bass mid. On a final note, I have an original REL subwoofer, so the drivers, a dual 10" isobarik configuration are a little slow, cabiner is great quality,so thinking of trying more modern faster bass units and closing the port, lesss bass more speed. Then a final final, hooking up my newish Denon AV receiver with correction, definitely a retrograde step, flatter but flat, dead worse in every way, even mty older Yamaha, ultra budget av is more musical.
Apologies for the spelling mistakes, tried to edit , but kept giving an error to update.
@@TheRealPaulRR No worries Paul! Autocorrect has a mind of its own, and knows better than we do :) I'm glad it did not eat your post. Even I am not safe as channel owner, sometimes even my own comments do not get through...
Nice text.. what about Ex2 in Alfredo horn..? Do you think they can be any good?
I order them .. I hope they will do good job in my 12 SQM office
Peace!
@@theReebellHi, I’m not an expert on horns, but the tractrix profile is well used. My issue is looking at the low frequency output compared to the peak is so great , no amount of horn amplification will make up for the deficit. So I use a Rel sub at speaker level. For my similar size room the Voigt pipe is better. The Acousta horns I gave require a large room in my view.
@@TheRealPaulRR thanks for your support and fast reply... Actually we are in game without limits so we music lovers and audiofiles are happy people with do msnzčx different choices..
Peace!
After a long time ,u have made me hooked on audio once again and u have vastly improved the understanding and I have started again to compare speaker parameters
Janos - thank you so much for this post, as well as the Beyma post. These sorts of videos, where you teach us how to “read” a driver and translate measurements into elements of speaker design like crossovers and cabinets are amazingly helpful. I think they really reduce the barrier to DIY projects, because we get a much better sense of where to start, and what will be the variables for us to adjust along the way. All the best - Jonathan
Hi Janos,..You are a really great teacher who knows how to lead people to their inner teacher. Thank You for sharing your Knowledge and the Motivation to embark on the Journey.
Glad to share! :) Enjoy your journey!
❤@@realworldaudio
Hi Janos, this is one of your greater videos with a lot of varying information. I agree with what you say about how limited the use is to share the design. It is the methodology that is far more important. I have seen it as well with engineering problems at work. Indeed, the Hummel and La Grande speakers are both arbitrary designs with one iteration. The only way they can sound so good is because you and Jürgen have the methodology to design it. And they are great to catch bad amplifiers. Thorsten from Snake oil Audio calls the "Le Petit" (the daddy of La Grande) "An absolute bull shît detector". Which I think is hilarious. By the way, Thorsten had a podcast yesterday about speaker toeing in. What you said about it matched pretty well with what he said, life is easy like that :)
A good friend of mine is a professional voice teacher (for lack of a better word) for singers and actors. She teaches them how to properly use their voice. She is a small lady of almost 70 years old. But when she raises her voice it literally sounds like a thunder. So indeed, the dynamic range of speakers can often not reproduce what a real voice can deliver.
Lowther are forever!! Love those drivers - detailed, balanced , hencforth minimom distance from music. That's my dx4 element.
I bought my Lowthers 55 years ago. Had new drivers but still original cabinets.
Heard this stuff so many times before. I have the secret formula but I can’t give it to you. It will take you forever (10000 hours) to achieve audio nirvana. So silly. Every single Lowther based system I’ve heard sounds horribly coloured. Always lack weight and shockingly high intermodulation distortion which is clearly audible.
The ultra high efficiency fetishism never ceases to amaze me.
I am also very much amazed by the diversity of the comments I receive. Often they are super entertaining. Thank you for your kind post. The formula is not secret, I am giving it to everyone. However, there is no 1 size fits ALL formula, that's why I cannot give you (or anyone else) snake oil advice that works for everyone with every gear in every room....
I cannot give it because there's no such thing. You never heard a good ultra high efficiency system because you did not hear one that was built / set up / optimized properly. Higher the efficiency, the harder it is on the associated gear, it makes the emperor butt naked. Have fun with audio, cheers, Janos.
Janos,
I have heard many high efficiency systems over the last 45 years.
They do many things well but they can’t overcome physics. It’s not surprising that you site the example of an opera singer because that is what the single driver crowd end up gravitating to when they listen to music. As soon as you try more complex dynamic music it just becomes an intermodulation mess. You can choose to ignore that but it is the reality. At least use a 2 or 3 way horn system as the example of high efficiency, at least then you have a chance to partially utilize the drivers within their operating range.
The distortion of single driver systems is really off the chart. Even look at the last HiFi news review and measurements of the Lowther speaker. It is basically broken.
Your videos are generally quite good but this single driver idea is pure fetishism.
I think I can share my own experience for so far my experiience goes and did............with the same observations and results........I couldn't listen to them ........
@@rambler3080 I'm with Frank that the Rethms was unlistenable to me after spending more than 30 min with it, and could not imagine it in my living room. Super stunning and has promise of dynamics that we never experience with normal efficiency speakers. However, the Edgar horn with the Lowther had none of that untolerable quality, and was one of the finest loudspeaker I ever heard. It could render scale and weight and SPL with such ease that it did put about 99.99% of the multi driver speakers to shame. Finest Cantate Domino experience ever with those speakers. I have heard lots of cathedral concerts, and that was the closest to live ever. About what I experienced that was the single Lowther-based loudspeaker that sounded good - well, not just good, phenomenal. That's why I did not get into Lowther as it's not my cup of the and takes the experience of 10K hours (Bruce Edgar) to mak it work. It must be steeped in a single pot to make it drinkable... However, that being said, there are tons of people who adore the sound: when someone has hearing damage at the high frequencies it sounds just right.
I agree with you that just about the lot of the FR speakers are either unlistenable or super limited to specific moods, but I have heard many DIY FR speakers which were simply fabulous. Also, heard tons of DIY FR as well that sounded quite bad to terrible... it is far, far safer to go with a multi driver choice. FR is for those who had multi driver for a decade and were never happy with them, that's when one should try FR.... not before. (Should make a video on that... actually, made several, but impossible to find when one has 1000+ vids like I do....)
One example: my speaker design mentor (who was also the mentor to the late Dr Bruce Edgar) absolutely hated all FR speakers, and he absolutely loved my Voigt pipe FR with the Fostex FE204. He said though that it sounds nothing like any commercial VP. That's why I think FR is a very special beast. The not so lucky implementations hold the beauty in the eye of the beholder, and show benefits in areas with looming curses in others. But it's possible to execute right, and that's why I want to share it, as according to many who have heard my VP (not just him), said they go far beyond what is out there in FR implementations. I had my engineer friend listen to them a while ago. He was a staunch hard-core multi-driver enthusiast, and he had tears in his eyes after listening to my Fostex VP. He proudly told his wife: now, that's real world dynamics, headroom and bass! Had to be something there if it moved a person like him so much...
Well, I’ve listened to just about every single driver video on YT and still can’t find one that doesn’t sound like a glorified clock radio. Maybe one day you can post one of these special designs.
Anyway, I enjoy your videos so thanks for your efforts.
You can try mine: th-cam.com/video/PupYXgX6sh4/w-d-xo.html
As usual, though I do not put any faith in judging YT videos. Hearing and echo of an echo... thank you for sharing your observations!!! BTW, I also think a lot of FR recordings on YT are abysmal to defective. :)
Yes, always one instrument demo. C’mon Janos, just about any speaker can reproduce that type of recording well.
With different positions REL subs work superbly.room is treated with QRD mids and QRD BASS TRAPS IN CORNERS BEHIND.
Janos, do you like the high flux density in coil gap of lowther? If so, which model do you know of has the highest? or which lowther model you like most? any in particular?
Reminder for drawings of Lancelot, since I have 515B and 288.
Hi Janos. A bit off topic, but I don’t think I ever mentioned to you that I own a pair of VMPS Supertower R speakers, which are both the size of refrigerators, but they need a good amount of work to get them going again. They are super high sensitivity with up firing tweeters and down firing subs as part of the design. I have them in storage right now, as I don’t have the room for them. Are you familiar with VMPS? I’d love to find someone who has the desire to refurbish them, but they’re absolutely huge, so they’d need a lot of room to really open up and do their thing properly.
Very informative, thank you. Did you covert the Supravox drivers. I am not going to use them soon, but they sounds interesting, they also have similar altec woofer (heritage series) as you already said.
Any experience with Quad ESL 63?
I had a single esl57 for some time and on radio with a leak troughline tuner, you would jump if the announcer coughed, not loud or much dynamic range or bass. Great fun
My buddy had the 57 for a while, gave it up for the hyper-dynamic Edgar horn. Beautiful sound, but as Paul said, no dynamics nor bass. Beautiful midrange and vocals though. My second mentor had a Quad / WE 91B combo that he said had the best vocals he ever heard. I did not hear such system, but I take his advice on that matter seriously. ; ).
In mau 5 horns lowthers r a bit thin.but last word in mids.
I already have A5 and have turned it into A7 at times or vice versa .
Super
Personal taste .............Lowther was never and is not my choice. many fiends did build with them.......
Mostly demonstarted with A SE 300B amplifier ........in some cases I first thought the amplifier was no good or faulty ....But later I knew it was the speaker! PM ...but I don't remember the right type at that time ( some decades ago )
Paper cone choice is nothing like great speakers use ( at that time kraft paper and glued into a cone )....so the cone shape is/was not exponential , to me they sounded quite shrill and shouty .............different forms of wood center difraction cones were tried to lower the listening fatigue .
Lowther has a big fan club, something like a religious cult as seen with many hyped brands ........they are indeed FAST but tonaly not balanced and not up to my taste .
There were also some problems with reliability in the past
Maybe they are different today ?
Besides the obsolete vintage speakers that became difficult to find ( and no reconed speakers ! ) my choice today would be FERTIN........( French ) , electromagnetic ....i believe the company now is called EMS .
There's also Supravox ( used by French broadcast...ORTL )...and other good brands ...
These comments are strictly personal .......so be and feel free to have your own opinion and experience . vintage preference is still this one....
www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/axiom80_diy_e.html
Kind regards
Hi Frank,
I can not comment on the Lowthers as I have never listened to them,but I did
buy the Supravox 8 inch and 16 inch field coils about 15 years ago. At that time I was also considering the Fertin field coil drivers as well. I run my Supravoxs open
baffle with my own designed ribbon tweeter on top which is 16 ohms.Field coils are very sensitive to the power supply that feeds them. I can run the 4 supplies
with either cap or choke input with no solid state in the path other than the schottky rectifiers for rectification.Two 100 milli henry chokes per supply and Elna cerafine caps and teflon silver wire.I use a variac to adjust the voltage to each driver. The sound is smooth, fast, dynamic,detailed and huge. Efficiency
is just under 100 db for 1 watt.
Cheers from Canada
Lou
Hello LOU ............Canada ....yes I like Canada and there are a lotbof nice people who love music and create their own systems .
happy for you with Supravox...........indeedfiled coils are sensitive to the power/voltage that is apllied .
One can indeed tune the speaker by the voltrage on the coil ...........my brother uses maritime grade batteries .
Anything close to 100 db sensitivity is glory .......
Once having the experience of such drivers and open baffle ........there'sa musicality never matched by the usual commercial speakers ( multi way )....some come close but they are rare....and for "some music" they are performant ....@@loureda5443
I grew up with GOODMAN single drivers ( 301) in a bass reflex driven by tube amplifier ...........that was always a pleasure like having a festivity goi,g on.
Al music passed , from Pink Floyd , The Beatles ...........to Mozart , Bach and Beethoven ........It took me long years before finding the same lisening pleasure again with the transistpr revolution followed by the digital trauma.......
Thank you for your comment LOU.
@@frankgeeraerts6243Hi Frank. Would you mind letting me know what you’ve got in your system right now and why you chose certain pieces? Or, just a quick overview of it?
FWIW, I’m building another new phono preamp right now. It’s based on the EAR 834p, but I’ve changed some things in the design like the 12ax7 cathode follower to a 12au7 among other things. Also upgrading the crossovers in a pair of Fortes I got from my neighbor, which I may have already mentioned.
Was looking up to Vas and volume for pipe .needs explanation.
Adjusting the volume to match lowther is v important with lowther and subs.
The problem with normal subs is that they nowhere nearly match the speed and dynamic range, so the combination sub and Lowther can easily sound un-natural.
So which voice coil for lowther?
The one you prefer.
Agreed, but the silver DX2 and PM6 are amongst the flattest in response, but you room will have at least as great an effecr. I would also look at the Cube Audio drivers anos has tried.
As Paul and Hugo have said, it depends on the room and your preferences. If the room is very dead, and you want a lively sound then the 8ohm Alu will be the most suitable. If the room is balanced, and we are looking for balanced sound, then the 16ohm silver will work the best ;
If u can share La grand ,why not Lancelot .Checked al enclosure for smaller room like for example Valencia.
People already have problem finding the material and driver for LaGrande... the complexities and demands with VOL are exponentially greater. I have three friends who embarked building them and ALL OF THEM had to come up with their own plans as NONE had acces to same material. Also, even if you do, you MUST optimize crossover for your amp and room, otherwise 90+% of the potential is wasted. The design requires a lot of knowledge to balance it out, as there's only a hairline between them being the worst pair of speakers you ever heard vs something that seems to come from another planet.
Online parts r everywhere.
Too much "squark"! 😅