Was There a Secret Traitor? - Red Dead Redemption 2
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
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• WHO IS THE REAL TRAITO...
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It's 100% Jack.
Dude, i've just realized, the ripped poster Micah had of Dutch's dead or alive reward, it says 1000$ while Milton said that Arthur has a bounty of 5000 when fishing with Jack. That surely means Micah had that piece of paper way before that time, most probably before the ferry job, after which the prices on their heads jumped tremendously. If Arthur post ferry job is 5000 then Dutch must be at least 10.000. This also explains why Micah only joined the gang a few months before the beginning of the game, but yeah, he wasn't an informer from the beginning
Also, the discussion at the start with Arthur asking Dutch if the ferry job was a trap and that they were expecting the hit, is nothing more than setup for the next RDR game, i'd even go as far as to say one of the Callender boys ratted, most probably Davey since Milton heard the 'philosophy' from Mac, and Arthur seemed extremely close to Mac judging by his reaction when Milton admits 'it was more of a mercy shot' meaning that Mac refused to cooperate, plus a few other conversations about Mac. I strongly believe that Mac Callender will be the next protagonist, too much setup, while Davey was barely mentioned
No, the gang in Lakay is discovered due to Micah not Bill, that's only what the game wants us to believe at that point prior to the reveal; Micah was the first one to return to shore from the boat to Guarma, Milton said that they picked him up right after they returned so the time adds up, I'll go even further saying that Micah was the one to go to Milton being influenced by their near brush with death during the bank heist
Abigail being taken at the end was Milton's last hand to play, last chance to get Dutch, and there are two possible outcomes: he must have known by that point that John 'von winkle' was Dutch's second favorite at some point and was hoping that John will be able to influence Dutch to turn himself in to save Abigail OR he must have known that John and Dutch had a fallout so he kidnapped Abigail to force John to turn on Dutch to save her.
In any case, Abigail being taken in the first place, besides being able to slip away at the bank and besides the fact that the Pinkertons kept John alive to ensure Abigail keeps feeding them information, is the most compelling argument why she must have been an informer at some point in the game, Pinkertons being able to get close enough to her in their camp without alerting Jack or Tilly or Grimshaw to kidnap her seems impossible; most probably Abigail decided to meet Milton close to camp in secret to discuss something while all the boys were out without knowing that Milton was done talking and planned to grab her, that's the only way the Pinkertons could have managed to get her, Grimshaw and Tilly wouldn't have hesitated to shoot them on sight otherwise. The 'horrible man' after killing him has so much more meaning this way as well, Abigail having trusted and even helped Milton after which he turned on her and tried to use her
Dude, something else, in Lakay after returning from Guarma in the cutscene, that was the first direct interaction between Micah and Abigail 'cheerful nymph of the prairie' and 'oh sure micah, my heart jump with joy when i set my eyes on you' it felt strange at the time but i just brushed it off. Why would Micah act so casual with Abigail all of a sudden? If Micah was taken by the Pinkertons right as he arrived (if he went right to them at that moment to inform them about their whereabouts) and the Pinkertons would have told Micah about Abigail informing that would surely explain the familiarity and the casual approach Micah had during that moment, something like 'ooh, i know something about you, we are the same you and me' feeling more comfortable towards her. Also before the final train raid Micah saying "[abigail] all packed up and ready to go" right before Abigail was snatched by the Pinkertons as he was implying something, how could've Micah know? Milton must have known about Abigail's plan to bail on Dutch after that final job and Milton must have told Micah, that might be the reason why Micah knew. I'd go as far as to say that Milton promised to help Abigail and Jack leave after getting rid of Dutch during the train job but as Dutch once again escaped, when Milton met with Abigail as planned to help her escape with Jack, Milton decided to grab her instead to use her in order to get Dutch.
Yoo I was playing online have been since it came out I'm like a lvl 570 but I was in camp yesterday and was petting my dog in camp and heard Cripps say hopefully by November 2 that dog doesn't turn and tear your face off I recorded it to just thought Id say I think a undead nightmare 2 is coming????
You have seriously underestimated molly
He was a traitor from the beginning or from the time he got arrested and the pinkerton offered him his freedom to give up the gang and duch and he played with moly head to take the light out of him and they won’t find that he was a traitor, he knew morgen got really close and he knows moly’s will do it since duch wasn’t nice to her and she was in love with him , but his plan didn’t go well so he played both sides so he can manipulate duch and duch can tell him where is the money
If Abigail had been the rat, I just don't see Milton passing up the opportunity to throw her under the bus in that moment, and laugh at the fact that Arthur came to rescue her
And she was the one who shot Milton if she was the rat she could've just shot Arthur and tried to make a deal
Nah more like shutting up milton b4 he say any more covering her track
@@dallasharlem1385 dude, milton was about to shoot arthur in the face. he was done talking by the time abigail even broke free.
@@isaiahduncan7879I think it's explained in the video how Milton actually didn't show any concerns for Abigail and Jack's life during the shootout in Lacay which makes all the deals she made with Milton completely void. So by the end of the chapter 6 when she was captured, it's possible that she stopped ratting and it's very likely that she shot Milton in retaliation for breaking his promise. It may also be her own redemption. I don't think she was actually a rat but if there's a second rat, Abigail is the prime suspect.
I feel like milton would have said someone like Micah to break the group down, instead of revealing it to be abigail.
its obviously gavin, his disappearing abilities are well suited for spying jobs.
By God, you may be right.
I think it was the channel catfish. It killed Jeremy Gill and ratted the gang out to cover its tracks.
Or Cain the dog. Rather convinent that some random dog just suddenly shows up a few missions after Arthur helps with the moonshine stils but before Jack is taken by the braithwait/pinkertons and yet is no where to be found in chapter 6.
Anyone even know when he left or what actually happened to him?
@@mrchenz1371He was a 10 foot British circus guy, but he left due to bullying, sadly he was cut from the game.
It's tragic that Molly died for literally nothing and did not even get a proper burial. And also the fact that the Pinkertons tried to squeeze information from her but still said nothing proves that she was always loyal to Dutch even after he treated her like a pet he no longer wanted. :(
Twórcy mieli zrobić dla niej grób który znajdować miał się na wzgórzu na wschód od obozu w beaver hollow i można go wywołać modami (translate)
Yup. I'm also 100% sure that her disdain for the group and calling them "parasites" in her note probably comes from stuff Dutch himself told her.
I thought it was one of the weaker aspects of the story not to explain why she pretended to be a rat
Yeah but it’s just Molly who cares about her.
@@brettjohnson536 I don't know , I feel like they made it pretty obvious as to why she said that. She was being ignored by Dutch, feeling like he threw her away after she gave up her whole life to be with him (He was also pretty obvious and weird around Mary Beth), in a moment of being drunk she just said something that she knew would get his attention - say she was the rat, even though she wasn't.
15:39 Pearson smiled at a picture of the gang he hanged in his store in the epilogue. The guy clearly loved them.
they didn't need a traitor, they were sloppier than the town drunk
Dutch's plans were but when he wasn't in the heist/plan they weren't very sloppy
They repeatedly left evidence in Rhodes, too.
Dutch: we're smoother than silk and my plans are flawless.
Me: Dutch I'm pretty sure the last 40 people saw our faces and we used our names multiple times in the last 3 heists.
@@dr.bright6272 Doesn’t help that robbing Cornwall again led him straight to Dutch.
They brought to much heat to them selves
I think Molly just wanted to hurt Dutch, as the chapters go on, he neglects her a lot and in her eyes that’s a betrayal. So either she did tell the Pinkertons, or she said that she did just to try and mess with him.. it’s not an uncommon tactic for people who are hurt in relationships… ehhh that’s just my opinion though.
Milton literally said she didn’t
@@Mqmn are you fr going to take *milton's* word?
@@Mqmn I said maybe she did or maybe she didn’t. Both points make sense. If she didn’t rat on them, then she said what she said to hurt Dutch, if she did rat on them, she was “getting her own back”. Like I said, Dutch’s neglect was a betrayal to her.
She definitely didn't snitch but she knew Dutch's weakness. She used it to hurt him in a drunken stupor not realizing it was going to be Ms. Grimshaw rearranging her guts, not Dutch.
She’s literally about to tell you she did something talking about how Dutch goes on about loyalty etc, before you’re interrupted by other gang members to go on a mission
I’m pretty sure Abigail is asking “what’s wrong?” After Arthur comes back from fishing because she can see his face is different. Ya know body language cues, especially considering they’ve known each other for a while.
Arthur said it himself. "We don't need a rat. We got sloppier than the town drunk..."
The one sticking point that always gets me when we start to theorise about whether or not anyone else other than Micah is the rat is that Milton was convinced Arthur was going to die by that point, I think it's much more likely he would want Arthur to die in that moment knowing who the rat was but wasn't in a position to do anything about it, rather than arbitrarily tell him a lie. (Obviously he made a mistake with assuming Arthur wasn't going to be able to do anything in that moment). Not to mention he probably didn't expect Abigail to break free either.
Exact.
or flip slide you could argue that he told Arthur that Micah was the rat as a way of ensuring, that if Arthur some how got out alive, the gang would still get divided and fall. I dunno just taking the story at face value just doesn’t sit right with me. Micah being the rat feels too obvious.
I'd argue it could have been part of a greater plan by him.
"(Loudly so sadie and abigail hear)Hey Arthur micah's a rat!"
"Pkow."
"Great thats sorted.(steps into other room)."
"Hey generic guard, free our prisoners but pretend you're busting them out instead of simply letting them leave."
(Abigail and sadie get back to camp) "hey everyone micah's a rat!"
@@threemiceinajacket You're thinking too deep about this. Milton wasn't out here playing some Death Note 6D chess game, he was about to get what he wanted, to see Arthur Morgan die and got cocky. The idea you suggest would take an insane amount of thought for something that'd happen AFTER his death.
@@threemiceinajacket what do you mean by "too obvious"
I have a hard time believing that Abigail was the traitor from the beginning. As much as I find the way you laid down the theory very interesting, by sticking around in camp and watching the interactions its clear that Abigail cares for the rest of the gang. Even though her loyalties lie with Jack and John, I don't think she'd willingly set the law on people she lived with and confided in regularly around camp.
As a whole, I definitely think theres a stronger case for the "traitor" to be Dutch himself, with the way he constantly underestimates the law around them and always aims for the largest scales, most dramatic and risky jobs ever, not to mention largely overestimating how low profile they are at any given time. He thinks there's a traitor because he can't admit to himself or to others that any of his actions were a mistake.
Yeah Abigail had nothing to do with being a traitor.. her and john were real and loyal and found out who was corrupted later on...
it was Jack, the true mastermind of the series
@Cheef Queef Sorry to disappoint you, but my sister (aka beautiful wife god bless her soul) works at Red Dead Redemption games. Its already leaked who the traitor is (and if you paid ANY attention at all you'd obviously see who it was.) It was the one and only Uncle. It's obvious that he was just FAKING his lumbago. Yes I know, that's a lot to take in. But don't trust the old man on your next playthrough. Keep an eye on him.
This is how reasonable people feel about the rabid Abigail theory
that and how does she get messages out. She cant read or write Hosea is trying to help her but she never got the hang of it unlike Jake does. she also almost never leaves the camp shes always there. she only see her leave during the escape from the gang and the getting captured part.
I think Agent Milton was far more honorable than you give him credit for. He offered Arthur his freedom in exchange for Dutch when he could have simply ambushed and arrested Arthur and tortured the information out of him or just killed him, he discovered the gang’s location in chapter three and instead of swooping down with his army of agents and slaughtering everyone he offers them amnesty in exchange for Dutch alone. These are vicious killers responsible for the deaths of dozens if not hundreds of people yet Milton gave them a chance (two in Arthur’s case) and only actually tries to kill them after they refused him and killed many more people. His actions in later chapters may have been brutal but the Van Der Linde gang really did necessitate it.
I can’t forgive him for Hosea though
@@thenewlbjYou have to look at it from the inverted perspective. You’re playing the game as someone apart of a criminal outlaw gang of murderous thieves. Milton is the good guy. Hosea was going to get the rope lawfully by the end of the day ether way.
Shut up Micah
Milton's offer to Arthur was as genuine as Ross's offer to John. Milton proved that when he murdered Hosea. Hosea was caught and helpless, if Milton was honorable in the slightest he would've simply sent Hosea to prison.
Milton is worse than anyone in the Van Der Linde gang, he's the type of criminal who joins law enforcement in order to legally kill and exercise his urge for cruelty.
Exactly my thoughts. Milton offered notorious murders amnesty and even a chance to blend back in to society. If anything, he's the good guy by comparison.
I've played through the game 3x at this point, and while the idea of another informant is fun, it's never really held much water for me--especially the Abigail theory.
For myself, I've always felt like a lot of the gangs misfortune simply came from time catching up to them. Police getting better, cities getting larger, and the gang themselves (outside of Arthur) not having enough self-awareness to realize that outsmarting the system is beyond their methods at this point. Unable to give up the life, the power, the supposed freedom, Dutch keeps thinking he's one step ahead when he's really 10 steps behind.
You've got a gang of outlaws, half of them sloppy drunks who rarely had a plan beyond shooting their way out. The trail was there for anyone who wanted to find it, as shown in the credits. Bill, Uncle, Micah, Strauss, Davey, Mac, Sean, all sloppy gunslingers leaving a trail of destruction and carnage everywhere they go. It was only a matter of time.
That's exactly my theory. Even Arthur admits times are changing and folks don't want guys like them anymore and with Dutch being wanted pretty much everywhere somebody is bound to recognize him or at least other gang members where they could report them to the police then pass on that information to the Pinkertons.
@@bojanglesthewizard8875my thoughts exactly thank you for putting it that way I’m pretty bad with words lmao. Also when Arthur takes Jack fishing Milton tells Arthur his bounty is $5,000 that’s $190,778.56 when you add in inflation I could only imagine what Dutchs bounty was that poster will be everywhere especially in the Bigger cities
What you said isn't a theory. What you said is what we watched. You've literally explained the entire theme of the game. It was there right in front of us yet people like to grasp at straws.
Strauss was a gunslinger?
Finishing my tenth playthrough and it makes considerable more sense for Abigail to be the rat than Micah. Either that, or they are both rats. The fan theory of Micah being the rat doesn't hold too much water.
Hosea spends much of his camp interactions trying to convince various gang members (nearly all of them, from what I’ve seen) that they should consider life outside of the gang. If the theory that he is ill and at the end of his life is correct, then I would imagine that knowledge would spur him to right whatever wrongs he could, not unlike Arthur. I see a lot of parallels between the two characters, actually. They both were fully committed to the gang, and Dutch’s ideals, until it became undeniably clear that Dutch himself wasn’t prioritizing the gang, or even his own ideals.
All of this to say, I don’t think Hosea was a ‘rat’, per se, but I would argue he was a large part of the unraveling of the group-if only for their own good.
Arthur went from wanting to be acknowledged and respected by Dutch to being just like hosea its shows who really left an impact in his life I always considered hosea to be the gangs Dad
I don’t want to really say Hosea was the “mom” of the two because Hosea is a real man in his own right. However he was the far more nurturing of the two.
@@FormerGovernmentHumanHosea is much more of a man than Dutch, even if Dutch is obviously bigger and physically stronger than Hosea
I think his illness is almost confirmed from the fishing mission you do with Dutch, however, I love you points if the parallels and I think that another spin on it could be that Dutch and Hosea are the polar opposites of Arthur’s personality. Dutch is the purpose driven man who justified all actions for the betterment of his group (which we see in the early chapters with Arthur) Hosea is the kind nurturing personality Arthur becomes as the story progresses
When they’re going to Horseshoe from Colter, Dutch even gives Hosea and Arthur their own wagon so they can “talks about the good ol’ days before Dutch went crazy” or something along those lines as Dutch puts it.
It's Pearson.
He got tired of arthur calling him a fat walrus who should of stayed at sea everyday
To be fair, I like the Milton character development. He’s not doing this because it brings him joy, he’s doing it because it’s his job to get rid of people that aren’t need in a new society, meaning that he didn’t kill Hosea in cold blood, he was just tired of giving warnings to the gang and knew they would never adapt to a new society. Think of it he gave the gang many warnings before the bank robbery and also he’s just a guy doing his job, not because he’s evil
I think him killing Hosea is his response to Arthur’s, “I haven’t done anything wrong, except not play by your rules”.
He tried it by his own rules, now, he’ll try theirs.
@@GDKF0238 Basically him saying. " This is how it feels to kill cold blooded"
Cops did that back in the day a lot. Honestly can't blame them. Talking to widows and orphans in regards to the same people enough times would make you hate outlaws. Maybe even push you to the old : "okay, you Wana fk around time to find out"
Also micah was the only one wearing a bright white suit during the saint denis heist. A big red “don’t shoot me i’m the informant” sign.
Very good point. Any other time he's basically wearing dark colors aside from his hat. I also view his white hate as almost a poetic nod to him not being who he appeared to be. Basically like a wolf in sheep's clothing situation.
This is why I love this story, I believe rockstar purposefully left the story open ended, to let people come up with their own conclusions. Everything from the rats, to dutch and his head injury, there is no right answer to what happens.
They give all the pieces to the puzzle, and they all fit, yet they don't. It's perfect.
Exactly
That’s what I think is the right answer. I personally think Molly didn’t rat but Micah and Abigail did. But you know what? I cannot prove any of it, even for Micah, it is just implied STRONGLY. They have done a perfect job at making us paranoid without any answers, like Dutch, and at the same time realizing it doesn’t even matter because like Arthur said, their time has past. There is no true answer, we will never know, and we don’t need to to understand the story.
I don't like that
Abigail
- escaped Saint Denise while Hosea got caught
- John was held prisoner, not hanged like they would have. Probably to keep her loyalty like they did John in RDR1
- asks Arthur to take Jack fishing where Ross and Milton find him
The idea of Abigail selling out the gang to try and keep Jack safe is a great twist I think. Explains how the Pinkerton's were on their tails immediately after Blackwater. The idea they found John became of her is poetic AF too
good theory but if she was a rat, why was she desperate to get John back to Prison over "talk of hanging him" rather than sabotage the gang itself
They were going to hang John though
Lies oliver Williams is the rat
@@ilikepigeons6101 Save John then rat out the gang and leave?
@@ilikepigeons6101 They probably decided to hang John anyway when he refused to talk about the gang, leading Abigail to stop helping the Pinkertons
Just realized something about Micah. When he and Arthur rob that stage coach that was supposed to be going to strawberry they get jumped by o’driscols on a route that they would have taken to get back to camp. Not a route that the stage would have been on towards strawberry. Micah even says that the o’driscols have been robbing the wagon on the regular. It’s weird that the o’driscols would have changed their ambush spot to a place that they would not have found the wagon on. Maybe Micah had a deal with the o’driscols to try to kill Arthur or another gang member while they were taking it back to camp.
I feel like that’s just a plot hole, Micah would of shot him dead in his back right there if he intended to kill him
What about that meet-up with Colm o'driscoll/Micah, Arthur, Dutch to "Make Peace" It seemed so weird that the O'driscoll's knew where he'd be..
@@laairothen maybe adjust it to capture. After all Micah did set up the time Arthur got captured
Good point, but I don't think they actually altered the route in anyway. Its entirely possible, that the stagecoach was taking the route along the river down to Riggs Station before heading back up to Strawberry. There is a stagecoach station there too. In that case, the ambush happens along that route, at the river crossing that Arthur and Micah were going to use to deviate from the standard route going south. Remember that the O'Driscolls used a tree to bar the way south and force the stagecoach into the river where they ambushed it. Hence I don't think that there is more to that really. It just happened that Arthur and Micah managed to rob the stagecoach before the O'Driscolls did, and ended up getting robbed themselves.
While im not convinced abigail would rat out the gang due to her actually liking some of the gang members e.g. hosea and arthur, I love the idea of her having her own 'redemption' moment by killing milton after her 'mistake' of ratting out the gang
I wonder, since they never really explain why Abigail was the only one taken, if maybe she tried to make a deal at that point, to save herself and Jack, only to have Milton tie her up and use her for "bait" anyway... So maybe she gets her own redemption moment even though she didn't actually rat on the gang...
@@livewire2759 her Tilly and jack were the only ones left at the camp Tilly saw the Pinkertons and got jack out of there and Abigail was captured
Lmao you think that's redemption? That was her covering her own ass in case Milton wanted to spill the beans to Arthur and Sadie who the real rat was. You don't find it the least bit conspicuous that she got a clean shot to his head when shooting him anywhere else would allow him to speak? She's not exactly a gunslinger, she had to set that shot up as Milton is milliseconds away from killing Arthur.
@@snodog00with how close they were a headshot would be the most effective way to eliminate him in my eyes
@@snodog00wow that is such a reach
I got the feeling that Micah could have ratted the gang out earlier to one of the sheriff's which may not have passed it along to the Pinkertons. Micah seemed reckless but always seemed to push Dutch into fighting. If anyone knows Dutch, they know he will usually be the first into battle, so maybe he was hoping Dutch would get arrested or killed and then he could take everything for himself or take over the group
Upon replaying the game, I have found a few moments that could point to Micah being the rat since the beginning. There are plenty of moments even before Guarma where Micah both says and does very questionable things that may not simply be his short temper and hot-headedness.
Way back in chapter 2, In the mission “An American Pastoral Scene,” Arthur asks Micah how he ended up so far west of Horseshoe Overlook while scouting with Lenny. Micah replies with the vague answer “You know how it is, a few loose ends. Drink here, drink there.” When Arthur asks him “What loose ends?” Micah replies very evasively, “Nothing that concerns you.” And while this may just be Micah not wanting to explain himself to Arthur, it very well could be that these “loose ends” are Micah giving hints to the law about where the gang is hiding out. It could also explain how Milton was able to find Arthur so easily while he was fishing with Jack, despite not knowing exactly where the gang is camped up in, as Micah himself hadn’t seen the camp yet either.
On top of that, at the end of chapter two, in the mission “A Strange Kindness,” the gang flees Horseshoe Overlook and begins searching for a new camp. Micah suggests they hold up in Dewberry Creek, but upon arriving, Charles notes that “It seems very open,” to which Arthur agrees, adding “Yeah, it does. Ain’t sure it’d be best in the rain, neither.” Obviously, with the gang wanting to lie low and out of the open, it would make no sense for Micah to recommend they stay somewhere so easy to find.
Finally, in the mission “Blessed Are the Peacemakers,” Micah informs Arthur and Dutch about a parlay Colm O’Driscoll wants to make with Dutch. Despite this being an obvious setup, Micah seems quite insistent upon going along with it. His reasoning for putting Arthur and Dutch’s heads on the line is that he “cares too much.” However, this “parlay” leads to Arthur’s capture and the O’Driscolls planning to set the law on Dutch when he inevitably came to rescue Arthur. Whether Micah knew this was a plan involving the law isn’t guaranteed, but Micah’s insistence is suspicious.
These points, along with the fact that the Pinkertons were able to find out about the Saint Denis bank robbery, make me believe that it is very possible that Micah was the true rat from the beginning.
As for Milton saying Micah was picked up AFTER Guarma, I also believe that could be true. I think that maybe Micah wasn’t outright telling the Pinkertons information, but rather, he was leaving little breadcrumbs for them to find the gang and it was only after Guarma that the Pinkertons officially picked him up and used him as an informant.
While I agree with the majority of your points I do believe that Micah ending up in strawberry, RIGHT where his former friend lived and had his guns is no coincidence, it’s likely he was drinking his way down with Lenny to get his guns and ended up getting arrested on accident because we didn’t know about strawberry being a dry county.
Micah being the rat just doesn't work. We can assume his motivations are based entirely on fun, fame, and stealing based on all of his actiosn throughout the game. If he wanted to rat Dutch out, it seems more likely he'd jsut cliam the bounty. But he never does. Instead, Micah establishes a large gang with the help of Dutch in the epilogue.
@@threemar3 Micah’s main goal throughout the gang is to get the Blackwater money for himself. The entire reason he rats out the gang in the first place is to cause enough distrust among the gang so that he can slip in and manipulate Dutch into returning to Blackwater, so it wouldn’t be too far fetched for him to have done it from the start.
The thing is with the O’Driscoll parlay, it was Pearson that brings it up first. Saying how he met some O’Driscoll boys and talks about that, it would make sense if Micah was the one who bring it up but it was Pearson. Now unless Pearson has some sort of personal Vendetta againts Arthur or Micah force him to do it then who knows
@@gee_kaz but I feel it’s pretty clear that Micah encouraged the Pearson to even mention the parlay to Dutch, in addition he was the one to say that Arthur should watch them from the rock.
“YOU TOLD ON ME”
-Kid in preschool when someone tells on him for stealing crayons
Even after almost 5 years now, seeing Red Dead Redemption 2 videos feels so enjoyable, especially the theories, the plot breakdowns, it's just so satisfying to watch. This game is a fucking masterpiece. How perfect.
I don't think that Abigail was a rat. If she wanted to leave with Jack and John, she could have just left the gang. They wouldn't hunt her down as we know. Even with Jack alone, she would have found a job (as we know). It's not that she HAD to rat on the gang. That were too many risks for her and her son.
its weird hwo she stange all of sudden got away in saint denis
@@tammykolu1242 they could have easily thought she was some random women though and not given her a second thought
It’s literally not weird or strange at all. She got away in Saint Denis for the same exact reason why Milton got his brains blown out; she wasn’t perceived as a threat, most likely due to her being a woman or because she wasn’t one of the “dangerous” members in Dutch, Arthur, Micah etc. A great example of this is Milton turning his back on her to start a 15 minute dialogue with Arthur. He completely drops his guard and pays for that decision with his brains being forcibly evicted from his skull.
That’s precisely why. It’s honestly incredible that people don’t get something so blatantly obvious and simple.
@@pugachevskobra5636 Thank you 🙏🏻
"We got sloppier than the town drunk, hell, we don't need a rat "
Entire video down the toilet bcc one line
Will always love the “Five thousand dollars! ….Can I turn myself in?” 😂😂
I believe the bounty of Dutch that Micah had proves that he was trying to get Dutch since before meeting with him; The bounty was 1,000 dollars, but Dutch was probably much more valuable than that, since Arthur alone was 5k. Dutch's bounty was probably an old one that put Micah on the trails of Dutch, Micah discovered the gang and tried to gain access to it, when he was about to make his move someone tried to kill Dutch and he saved his life so HE could get the bounty, but the circumstances were dire and he thought "maybe I could score some money with those dudes before I turn them in to the law".
Just imagine how brilliant it would be for Micah to get the bounty each gang member, one by one before turning in the big boy Dutch: He would be rich!
So, my conclusion is that Micah was chasing Dutch since the begining, but chose to stay with the gang so he could score some heists and some good money before seizing the moment and capturing Dutch. But that doesn't mean he was the rat to the Pinkertons since the begining. I do believe he was a traitor, but maybe not the Blackwater traitor, if ever there was one.
Abigail literally says she’s afraid of the Pinkertons in the clip after ~19:00. She wouldn’t go to them. She’s one of the most loyal in the gang - to several other members if not to Dutch himself. (And the game has an actual rat run through Micah’s camp at the end to telegraph exactly who is what to each other; only Micah gets that treatment). I think Dutch accusing Abigail is part of his descent to madness - accusing John and eventually Arthur as well
Who’s to say it wasnt an act?
@@elitealex8985 And who's to say it was? Fact is, that she was afraid of the Pinkertons and that's all we know so far.
It’s Pearson
I think because of Micah's low honor he didn't intend on betraying them, but because he probably has the worst luck he ended up forcing himself to just to survive
As he said himself, "I am a survivor.."
@@FlaviusConstantinus306 I don't think they did pick him up after returning from Guarma, I think Milton was lying... Arthur is the first one off the boat, yet even if you go straight to Lakay (you can pick up a letter from Sadie to "Uncle Tacitus" at the Van Horn Post office) Micah is there when you arrive. It could be just developer oversight, but there's no way he would have had time to get captured, make a deal and then get back to the camp before Arthur.
@@Mirandelorean That line is pretty damning evidence... but considering Micah's character, I don't think he actually ratted, I think he promised Milton that he'd deliver Dutch, but that's a promise he had no intention of keeping. He was playing both sides so he could survive either way...
@@livewire2759 There’s some decent evidence he was ratting from the very beginning or was atleast plotting to get Dutch and some of the others for their bounty. Every heist the gang has performed since Micah joined has had pinkerton or law enforcement either present in large numbers stationed to respond or tipped off right before.
He supposedly “saved” Dutchs life in a saloon or something before blackwater. Do you really think fking Micah would save anyone without a reason? I think he had a plan to have his previous crimes reduced or expunged like John was supposed to of had or collect the bounties or both.
In his camp he has a $1000 bounty poster for Dutch that dates back to before blackwater. We know Arthur has a $5000 bounty in Chapter 2 post blackwater so we can safely assume Dutch has a significantly higher bounty at that point. It would definitely be in character for Micah to continue to inform on the gang until they were eventually caught or killed and he would collect a share. Every time they aren’t captured his share just goes up, meanwhile he is also collecting on the gangs profits.
On my first playthrough Milton and Ross came to visit Arthur and Jack fishing immediately after I saved Micah. They try and get you to turn and bring up your $5k bounty. Coincidence they knew where the camp was and approached you at the perfect time after Micah got back?
When Colm and Dutch meet, Micah sends Arthur to the specific location he is supposed to overwatch the meeting from and is jumped by a group of odriscolls. Colm’s goal is to capture Dutch and turn him in, probably splitting it with Micah. I believe he set this up with Colm and either had someone meet with Pearson and convince him Dutch would appreciate hearing it from him or Micah brought it to him. I think Pearson brings it up originally but I can’t remember for sure.
In the Saint Denis he wears all white while the rest of the gang wears all black. Hosea and Abigail are instantly caught by Milton, implying they were tipped off and ready well before hand.
On Guarma Fussar finds out who the gang is pretty quickly for people he’s never seen. I have no evidence for this but I think Micah gave them information in the hopes of getting a ride home from what probably seemed a hopeless situation.
Micah and Hosea had a really conflicting relationship and as soon as Hosea was killed by Milton, which I think Micah specifically told Milton to target Hosea, and Lenny who he didn’t like for racial reasons, he immediately got into Dutch’s ear and spoke constant lies of betrayal and lack of faith while also boosting his massive ego. Manipulating Dutch to only trust Micah and lead them on the path to ruin.
Perhaps the whole time Micah was playing everyone in the hopes of collecting the blackwater money with no survivors left and if the agents did get the gang on a dangerous heist he was already the mole so he could get away scot free. Win win win for Micah on all accounts. It doesn’t make sense for Micah to have only turned after Guarma when they were clearly getting constant information as far back a blackwater.
@@livewire2759 there’s more but I can’t remember more than that atm
I always thought that Bronte got some type of information from Jack. Whenever Jack talks about his kidnapping he explains how he was treated really good but I don't think a character like Bronte would be good to someone for nothing. His ties to the police and government would make it meaningful.
This actually makes sense
the only downside of the theory is that jack is a 4 year old, what possible information could he give
@@mrepical7235The biggest thing would probably be where the gang is held up at. Maybe Jack told Bronte. And through the grapevine that info got to the O Drisscols who attack Shady Belle in the Horseman Apocalypse mission
@@captainosu2094 hes kidnapped before they go to shady belle and bronte was probably being kind to jack because hes just a young child, would potentially piss off his organisation, would potentially ruin the Braithwaite's ransom plan and he likes to potray himself as a better and more civilised man than your average run of the mill criminal. the o'driscols couldve found out about shady by hearing about the rhodes massacre or from the remaining leymone raiders who were ran out of there and likely were keeping an eye on it
Alt theory: literally everyone except Arthur was a narc for the Pinkertons at some point and none of them knew about each other. Standard fed op.
Finally, a theory I can agree with.
One thing that I always thought was pretty unexplained was the train robbery, where you use the oil wagon to stop the train in chapter 2. Alot of lawmen show up eventually and Arthur mentions in the escape that it seemed like a setup with how many appeared. If you read the newspaper story on the train robbery it does directly say that the lawmen received a tip off about the robbery.
I think it is strange as it is not pinkertons that show up but lawmen meaning that whoever gave the tip off went straight to the law so they probably were not a Pinkerton informant, yet. It is also strange as this was not the whole gang going to be involved like Blackwater Ferry or Saint Dennis bank but just 4 members of the gang doing the robbery, so why try a setup on them unless they just want to weaken the gang further?
As for who would tip them off I would say Micah. I can't remember exactly where about Micah is at this point in the story, like at his Strawberry camp, but if he was at Horseshoe then I think he would be the main suspect as I think he is very focused on getting the Blackwater stashed money and less gang members = more money in his share. You can hear a conversation between him and Dutch where he offers to do a lone wolf mission to Blackwater and retrieve the money if Dutch just tells him where it is but dutch says no. Micah needs to find this out where the money is hidden and to do this he aims to stay on Dutch's good side for this. Maybe he hopes by taking out more major members of the gang then Dutch might become desperate and send Micah to get the money?
It is possible the Blackwater setup was Micah also. The whole robbery seemed to be his grand plan, he just needed a big gang to help him pull it off but if most of them were to die in a shootout afterwards then he would be able to take a bigger share of the money, or even eliminate the rest and take it all? I'm thinking of the robbery in the opening of The Dark Knight (Batman) movie with the Joker taking out all the other robbers until only he remains. Micah just didn't account for Dutch hiding the money in the town and most of the gang surviving, also becoming a wanted man that couldn't just go off on his own for a while. I think this could explain his actions going forward in the game where he tries to eliminate / ditch the gang until it is just him and Dutch and the Pinkertons become his best shot for achieving this.
I'm actually at this point now in my 2nd playthrough. Micah happens to be in Strawberry jail at this time. John gets the train tip after Micah is already in jail, so not sure how he'd of known. This has me thinking there had to be a another snitch. Sean joins the train robbery uninvited, and he was caught in Blackwater, but he dies in chapter 3, so that really doesn't make sense either. so many questions, lol
How is that tip off in the news paper not more well known, plus isn’t only them four that know about the robbery?
Also why Dutch was the biggest problem for the gang was his constant use of using everyones name openly all the time. He would come up with his own alies with a rediculous name and then proceed to call out to Arthur and others wherever they were.
Mary-Beth checks just the right boxes: she never comes into direct conflict with the Pinkertons, she's conspicuously absent from Lakay, she's the one who gave the lousy train tip where lawmen ambushed the gang, she abandons the gang as the last possible moment right before Pinkertons raid them.
Maybe, but why? We know her backstory is true
She's in lakay I thought. Never noticed her not there.
Yaaaas my, man milking red dead and we love it. Quality content as always. Keep it up Fizhy❤😊
Great video. I think you made a lot of good points in this, especially about Dutch (who frankly became a disaster by the end) and the gang being very unsubtle about everything. I mean some of them were notorious very loud people. (I mean Bill's very stealthy attempt at trying to find the gang in the swamp hideout, not surprising they were found).
I believe Molly was just very upset with Dutch and wasn't in a good emotional state. It just seemed like (whether or not she planned on getting unalived) she really just wanted a go at Dutch (like maybe she wanted/tried to tell the Pinkertons stuff but not in a Wanted To Be An Informant way, more like a Pissed At Dutch way).
Micah is just very easy to hate and is clearly extremely selfish. As for Abigail, having a kid would have made her and/or John particularly vulnerable members. Something that could have been exploited if the Pinkertons knew. Not that Milton was even remotely trustworthy about anything.
RDR2 has a very interesting story and there is a lot that is unclear about it. I mean we start AFTER the Blackwater mess and are also limited to Arthur's perspective who conviniently (storywise) was not actually present at the event. I mean another game might have started with that mission.
I think it’s heavily implied Abigail being the rat. But surely if she was, later on when she’s captured in RDR1, John would have found out off of Agent Ross when he’s used to be able to track down the old crew. Also, why would she be tied up in the last mission of Chapter 6 yet Micah who is also the rat isn’t attacked by the Pinkertons. In the shootout at camp. He’s just able to slip away. Also, at the end of the game Agent Ross goes up to Micah’s camp and then is surprised to find him dead. Almost like he was waiting for Micah to hand over Dutch since he wasn’t expecting Dutch to shoot him
Also I don’t think she would put jack in any harms way yes she could be doing it to get jack out but if Dutch found out there’s the risk of him killing jack so I don’t think she would
Arthur was very close to Abigail, if it wasn’t for John, Abigail would be probably married to Arthur. You can read it in a letter or in his diary. So I think when Jack and Arthur came back while fishing, it was Arthur’s body language which made Abigail ask him what was wrong.
Micah is definitely the traitor the whole time, you can see it as early as in the end of chapter 2 when Micah recommends a camping spot for the gang and it’s in the middle of a river with a dead body lying near and Arthur and Charles both comment on how hard it would be to defend, Micah was meddling around the area hence the dead body, making sure it was clear so they’d more likely set up camp there, and trying to put the gang in a terribly vulnerable spot so Pinkertons could raid them easier
If the theory about Abigail is true, then Milton was likely using her as bait in the final mission. It would certainly explain how she would be able to untie herself.
It's possible Abigail revealed the location of the camp in chapter 3 hoping that the Pinkerton's would help to get her son back in return. I seriously doubt that they were working with the Braithwaites.
the wanted poster of dutch is interesting. the bounty only being 1000 $ makes we wonder if it's an old poster, something he might have picked up when he decided to find Dutch and join the gang.
as for Abigail being a traitor, my only real question would be how she would go about it? As we are told plenty of times the ladies stay in camp all the time, and Abigail is illiterate so she couldn't send letters.
My theory is actually hosea. The ferry job which both hosea and Arthur weren't apart of (Arthur is talked about like Dutch and hosea's son) could've been a way for hosea to try and rid the gang of the hot head killers he has a disdain for while also protecting the people he cared about most
I cringe every time I see someone say that Abigail was a rat. As if she’d put her 4 year old son in direct danger of being killed or orphaned by bringing the law down on them. And the idea that she’d purposely send Jack to a location where Pinkertons would be, knowing the danger that would put him in, and would also pick THE most loyal member to send into this supposed plan, is ridiculous.
The first game is entirely about the law holding Abigial and Jack alive to motivate John to do their dirty work. Jack would have never been in any real danger with the gang and with the law, not when he's valuable. You're also assuming Abigail would think the law would just massacre and entire gang that is wanted alive, including a child and women. It's fine if you don't think Abigail was a rat, but acting like people are stupid for thinking it, when you yourself having thought things though, is ridiculous.
@@threemar3 You really think there's no danger in having a 4 year old caught up in a gun fight? You think the gang would just let the law take them in without returning fire? They get in gunfights with the law during every job they do, but you think they wouldn't get in one if the law raided camp? Okay lol. There's also the fact that she depends on the gang for her sons survival. She has no way to feed or clothe him without them, but sure, she's just gonna give all of that up so her and her son can live in the wilderness by themselves with no way of getting food or housing.
One thing I've never seen in any of these videos is that how does the o'Driscolls knew where Arthur was when they had the parlay. Makes me think more towards Micah ratting him out. Maybe not cuz he's working with the Pinkertons, but his way into moving up the leadership ladder.
Sometimes the most simple explanation is the correct one. I think that the gang got too sloppy and predictable after the blackwater massacre, with the majority of the main story being make noise (planned or by circumstance) while planning a big robbery. Then when the robbery fails or they make a little too much noise, they move camp. The pinkertons knew this is how the gang operated and it was just a matter of pin pointing where the gang’s camp was at the time.
In my personal opinion Micah did not rat he’s an outlaw through and through he loves the life as much as his guns he would not give that up he was even casual when he was about to die because that’s part of the life
However Molly did but in my opinion hadn’t enough information to actually make a difference so they let her go
I also think Abigail is a likely suspect there’s motive and she certainly was capable of doing it
However I would not be surprised if Karen accidentally ratted whilst drunk at a bar
Even Trelawny is a somewhat reasonable suspect he had some motive and again the means to do something with it
There’s also a lot of ‘side characters’ not main gang members but could certainly rat a bit
They got sloppy so they died if there’s a rat then Milton would’ve known how close Micah and Dutch became so why not sow seeds of doubt incase everything doesn’t go his way
Realistically everyone but Arthur,John,Havier,Jack,Straus,Hosea and Dutch himself are not out of the conversation for who the rat is
Yeah, Micah is an outlaw, and would therefore have plenty of motivation to rat out the gang..
Micah may be a outlaw but mainly he is a surrivor - and a surrivor does what needs to be done to surrive. "surriving" for Micah always meant to get the gang into a dire sitaution where he can work his way up to Dutch in order to find out where the Blackwater money is.
I can understand Dutch thinking Abigail/John is the rat. John ran off on the gang and child once before, and he worked for the Pinkertons in the entire first game. John only cared for himself
The first game takes place after this one.
@@ORIGINALFBI Are you sure?? I thought Dutch, Javier, and Bill all came back to life somehow. Huh news to me 🤷
@@johnnysouza9222 John working with them in the first game has nothing to do with the events of the 2nd.
John was forced to work with pinkertons he didnt have a choice
Micah might have been planning the gang's downfall since the beggining, giving bad counsels to Dutch, for example in Blackwater, and possibly convicing Abigail to betray the gang, altough i doubt that, but i think that Micah lied about the train, in the second to last mission, just to leave the camp with no one but Susan, Abigail, Tilly and Jack, and Abigail was captured in the end, because Micah wanted to bait Arthur, Sadie and maybe John as well, in case he survives the train robbery, and in case after getting shot, he hears about where everyone is and goes to Van Horn, but gets caught and Micah runs away with the most loyal men of Dutch and his own loyal men, without the threat of anyone going after him for revenge
This is giving me “Micheal was never in witness protection” vibes
Man of course this video uploads when I clock in for work 😭
There is a conversation between Abigail and Hosea at the camp fire in chapter 2 she said “I’m sorry Hosea, he said why? Her response was very nervous
Molly definitely told the Pinkertons about the Saint Denis bank robbery, she only confesses to telling them that and if you notice when Hosea and Dutch were planning on how to execute the robbery back at Shady Belle, you can find Molly sitting right there in the corner behind them when Arthur enters the hallway
Mac Callander and Agent Ross were working together since Blackwater. Mac sold his brother and the gang out in exchange for a Mansion in Los Santos under the new name Mac De Santa.
Sounds like an original and good idea for a DLC🤔.
Tahiti
Mangos
Australia
Farmers
Dead
Muhney
15:04 he could just be trying to mess with Arthur, making him think he killed an innocent woman🤣💀
One thing that never sits right with me about Micah is the fact he’s only been there just over half a year and every time he plans some “easy” job you have to do a looot of killing. Micah sets up the O’driscoll truce and they know you’re hiding on the ridge with a rifle. He set up the stagecoach job and we basically had to kill an army of guards then O’Driscolls. Even if he wasn’t telling the whole time dude was just bad luck death and misfortune just follows micah.
Man. STILL finding dialogue I've never heard before. This game never ceases to amaze.
What’s really interesting is that trying to figure out if there is a second traitor puts us in the shoes of Dutch, we can understand his paranoia, we seek patterns in chaos just as Dutch does, we lose sight of the fact that the gang were living on borrowed time from the beginning because the modern world simply would not accommodate their lifestyle. Genuinely some amazing writing on the part of Rockstar to allow us to view the events of the game through so many different perspectives without them ever explicitly telling us what is fact and what is fiction
Hosea seem most likely to have been the rat from the beginning. He clearly cared for the gang and knew Dutch was becoming much more radical especially after Blackwater. When Milton caught Arthur fishing with the Jack, he wanted Arthur to give up Dutch and chose to not arrest Arthur. The Pinkertons interest in Dutch and not the whole gang, makes it likely that Hosea was willing to give up Dutch in order to prevent all of the gangs members demise.
Well he said the Pinkertons picked Miach up after Guam, but he didn't say if it was the first time he had been picked up or if Miach had previously made contact with the Pinkertons or not.
jack could have been a rat, hes a kid and milton could have easily manipulated him by promising his family would be safe
Hosea’s always been the one to look out for the group, so its not impossible that he gave himself up so Abigail could escape.
and it’s possible that John was arrested because the police wanted to do things by the book, vs the Pinkertons being a private organization. or maybe they thought they could turn John on them, like they did in RDR1
Dutch was the original rat guaranteed. Worked as an informant to get rid of everyone else in the camp who did his bidding so he could keep the Blackwater money for himself. Started acting crazy either out of guilt or just trying to confuse everyone and turn them against each other. Nobody came looking for Arthur when he was captured, and Dutch seemed surprised when Arthur got back to camp. Lots of little things to think about.
Micah had a wanted poster with a reward of $1,000 for Dutch, but by the time Milton and Arthur meet at the river the bounty for Arthur alone is $5,000 (assuming Milton is telling the truth). Dutch's bounty should be higher than Arthur's as gang leader so it must have been a long time since his bounty was as low as $1,000... meaning Micah has been carrying around the wanted poster for months if not years.
I still think the rat was Micah all the way back to Blackwater, but hadn't talked to the Pinkerton's specifically and ratted them out to the local sheriff or the owner of the boat who then hired the Pinkerton's for backup, and the same with Saint Denis bank. When Micah got back from Guarma he went directly to Milton since neither of those ambushes worked and started manipulating Dutch more and more in the hopes of finding out where he hid the money in Blackwater, so he could get the whole gang killed and get the money for himself at the same time.
You brought up a good point with Micah even being a rat at all. One can't help but wonder if Milton didn't lie entirely just to cause further havoc amidst the gang. That's what I love about RDR2' story, we don't get the full thing. Some things are convoluted, and not enough to be plot holes but rather to spark theories and conspiracies about the story in order to prolong the game's lifespan. Game's a damn masterpiece.
The creepy music makes me feel like Nuke's Top 5 is going to pop in with a 'Did you see it?'.
it was Jack, the little bastard.
Hosea told Dutch not to rob the train. He did anyway. That got Cornwall's attention. Hosea told Dutch to lay low. Dutch went straight into Valentine, causing a confrontation with Cornwall which probably led to the Pinkertons catching onto their location. Arthur told Dutch that they were being used by the Greys and Braithwaits, they ended up kidnapping Jack and killing Sean. On and on the list goes, people trying to get Dutch to listen to reason, but he gets the gang into more and more trouble because he is doing things more and more sloppily
Now that I think about it...
Is the whole ferry job gone wrong a Blood Meridian reference?
This is certainly very interesting, but one other thing i noticed in the video just at the end, is the giant plume of smoke coming from the campfire, that kind of ruins the idea of a secret hideout. Perhaps that's how the Pinkertons found the campsite, just like how the player finds other campsites, with treasure maps and such.
I have a theory of Kiren. Could he have been the original rat. While he rarely left the camp, but we also paid little attention to him during missions as well. His death could have been by the Pinkerton's to cause the gang to panic & do the bank job.
My feeling was always that Dutch was the rat. But conflicted between his NEED for being both the man in charge, and adored, and then an old man, seeing his own end nearing and wanting peace and a legacy. So he was playing both sides, leaving crumbs enough for Pinkertons, to make sure the gang still "need" him to lead, while slowly moving his own pieces into position to have noone left to share the money with and a single man can disappear way easier.
I like to think that throughout the game, Micah snitched to random people like the braithwaites and greys, but only when he was captured did he finally go so far as to snitch to Milton
I always thought micah was building the gangs bounty while also making money from scores. Really explains why he's always like "hey dutchy...let's murder"
It has always been Micah. I even go one step further and say he is an inside man. He probably was some outlaw that got spared a hanging to do this one job which was to get Dutch. He exuded the character traits that Dutch values in a ruthless enforcer and he portrayed all of that. Now you could argue he was way above the line to be an inside man but they probably offered him full immunity and a check to get Dutch but of course, we cannot forget that regular law enforcement will see him as just another gang member. Which left him with very little choice no matter how many traps he set, the gang got out of most of them, except that last one. I think he was working for Milton directly.
It is entirely possible that in her drunken state Molly misspoke about telling the Pinkertons and meant to say she should have told them instead of she told them.
No, the rat was fucking Dutch. He doesn’t care about anyone, even at the end he left a trail for Milton and the pinkertons to follow by leaving Micah behind, he knew that they wanted bill and Javier, along with John. He just didn’t think they would be able to kill him, he’s been working with them since the beginning, at least in Blackwater, nobody else would’ve betrayed the gang there. Everybody was seriously well off in Blackwater, they didn’t need to betray them, but Dutch, he’s getting old, only ever cared about himself, he’s a narcissist, he wanted out and knew he couldn’t just leave because the rest considered him family.
Ine thing that always confused me was Micah's insistence that Arthur had betrayed Dutch and still trying to act loyal to/ insulted for Dutch even when it was just him and Arthur durinf those final fights
If RDR3 comes about and takes us further back in time with the Vanderlind gang, maybe we'll get answers to some of these mysteries.
Not many channels could get me to watch 35 minutes worth of content, but Fizhy I more than capable. Great video
Micah may not have been a Pinkerton agent early on but he was for sure working with various factions going against the gang, like the O’driscolls and the grey/braithwaites.
The main problem with Micah being a rat is that he would directly put HIMSELF in harms way. Why would he ever do that? Especially considering he insists upon being a "survivor". Also he isn't always at the camp in Horseshoe when the train heist is being planned. You can do his quest after the train heist, so there is no way he would have known about it. As well as Arthur's meeting with the Pinkertons when fishing with Jack, Micah couldn't have been the rat for those occasions.
I think that Dutch was a possible rat, he got tired of the gang disobeying him and not trusting him, so he throws the ones he doesn’t like away to the pinkertons. The fact that Micah doesn’t hand in Dutch after the end of the game backs this up.
Arthur calls the rat out pretty early on in the game, but nobody gives it any credence. The camp rat that loiters in the Kitchen is the perfect traitor. Nobody gives Uncle a second thought, but chapter one jabs at him with several lines that point at him being a traitor, but not a bad one, i.e. "lizards have hearts".
I wouldn't think it's uncle. He dies defending Jack and Abigail from the army with John.
I always felt Sean was the 2nd rat. The way the second train job went with him, he also begged John to come along, then came uninvited, not to mention how he took a long time to search the back cargo almost like he waited for the law to show up. He didn't shoot any lawman that mission, he just got dazed and let Arthur do the rest of the work. John also mentioned escaping the law, that he suspected it was a set up.
Dude your videos are fantastic for the scenery shots alone.
I feel like Abigail shot Milton because she was worried he would mention she talked. he just told Arthur and Sadie about micah and Molly, I'm sure she thought he was going to mention her name next.
Maybe, Dutch just wanted to be an outlaw forever, and was his own rat, bipolar double face after he understood and loved a lot the kinda "god" status he earned by the gang.
I believe it’s Hosea who ratted out Dutch. The reason why I say this is cause Hosea started to see the holes in Dutch’s plans and maybe even his mind. However while I know that Milton kills Hosea and would be pretty counterproductive to kill off your own rat, he did it cause he once again didn’t expect Dutch and co to escape, possibly even to rile Dutch up to get him to make a mistake.
Point is, while I love Hosea and think he’s a great man, he’d still want to cover his own back, if not the rest of the gang’s back
She may have very well intended to tell on the gang but the information she gave them probably wasn't useful so they cut her loose. She thought she was giving good info but it was info. They already knew they didn't inform her of that though, so she thought she had turned traitor even though her attempt failed
As much as I hate Micah, and he is a self-serving bastard, Milton could have been protecting Molly, not knowing she had already been executed by Susan.
19:15 Are we just not gonna talk about how Hosea has his foot inside of the stew?
I think most people overlook two most important suspects.
One of them being pearson with his letters,lying about being in the navy and cant be cooking shit.He never gets even near to dying and one of the only gang members who get a better life after the game ends.
And the other is susan grimshaw which is a very important suspect that nobody mentions.She has big reasons to hate everyone in the gang and she literally hates dutch which is miltons main concern.Also she never gets in trouble one time in the gsme other than standing up to Micha and dutch.
Bro, your just a professional hater. Also Susan doesn't hate Dutch.
Its very well documented in yge game Micah was engaged and compliant in sabotaging the Blackwater Job.
This is the first one of these I've watched and I have long thought that Abigail could have been the rat, because you're right in that her first loyalty is going to be to her child just like any mothers' is. However, I think you might be missing the tree in the forest and that tree is John. Abigail wants John and I think she'd know that John sees Dutch like a father and the only way to pry John away from Dutch is to irrevocably destroy John's faith in Dutch or, barring that, the destruction of the rest of the gang.
Molly: I always thought that Molly was just blustering and, no, she didn't really expect to be killed for it. I think she imagined she would hurt Dutch and be banished. That's what I think she ultimately wanted. To have a clean break and be free of them.
Blackwater: You have to remember the context of the era of American history. At this point the government was all in on eradicating the last few remnants of the outlaw gangs. The James-Younger and had recently been killed or apprehended and in a world where the van der Linde gang is real they would have been one of the last remaining active gangs. Knowing this, and the US government's association with the Pinkertons, it's not beyond reason to think that the whole Blackwater ferry scenario was a sting operation.
Dutch: I made a post some time ago that was along the same lines. I believe that the whole "create some chaos and slip away" method had probably worked many times for him, but as you pointed out, this wasn't working anymore and the repeated attempts kept getting more and more violent. But what was the actual reason this was no longer working as expected? Quite simply, the Pinkertons. But not only because they were a national "law enforcement" agency, the US Marshalls were national-level law enforcement, but because they were very well financed by private business and had a well-staffed presence wherever they needed it. They also didn't have to bother with troublesome things like finding "ethical" lawmen like the real law would typically do. They could hire any thug that was willing to kill for money.
Anyway, great video. I enjoyed watching.
I was playing rdr2 and the mission of sadie adler where she takes revenge for her husbands death by attacking a barn with arthur i searched the dead body of the bearded guy who sadie stabbed and he had a letter from colm which mentioned a “loud mouthed-disloyal woman”
theres also the fact Abigail was also saw different men in the gang before she got with John. Cant tell if she got some fued from her/their past. But i cant deny, the fact she escaped but Hosea got captured is sus af
7:58 let’s be honest this is true here. It is an occupational hazard