Regardless of how well the retcon was accomplished, I really like the idea of making the big bad Tharizdun. He always should have been the power behind the temple. He makes an excellent behind the scenes villain that keeps popping up in forgotten, out of the way places.
Agree with your takes on Thrommel and Lortmil. I liked the Tharizdun twist. Especially today as yes, sometimes a single unifying concept can be behind the evil of a lot of things, without them even realizing it. But I would like to see a proper take with original intent on it as well. I think a 3rd party publisher could do a good job here.
"However, in the Hateful Wars (498-510 CY), the combined Ulek states, with cooperation from Veluna and the demi-humans of the Kron Hills, broke the power of the Euroz and Jebli hordes which had nested in the Lortmils and were attempting to spread into the lands around. These humanoids were finally driven out and scattered - some fleeing northward toward the Yatils, but most (having wiser leadership) taking to the Suss forest and thence to the rugged mountains of the Pomarj." -- "The Pomarj" entry of "A Guide to the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Setting" from the 1983 World of Greyhawk boxed set I remember buying RttToEE and regretting buying it. I did get a nice amount of money for it when I traded it in a couple of years ago. So, no buyer's remorse here. :-P
I thought there were a few solid contributions, like the well in the Moathouse... use of the grell, which is a pretty EEG-ish beastie, was quite inspired. But I agree that bringing Tharizdun into it was overshoot. Gygax himself realized in between writing Hommlet and ToEE that use of Lolth was unnecessary when you have roughly 600 possible demon lords/ladies who could occupy that role in the story and diluted the uniqueness of D3/Q1 (as flawed as the latter ended up: we need Q2, Bloch!!!! :) ). In the end, I'm glad the D&D3E folks looked back on an earlier era with nostalgia enough to revisit it... I just wish they'd looked back on it with a bit more respect for the source material. BTW, the mind behind the Elemental Princes was Lew Pulsipher. I don't mind their usage here, but making them lieutenants to the EEG makes me happier than putting them under Tharizdun.
Ugh, you're dredging up all these repressed memories. You could turn this video into a series and you'd never run out of terrible things in this adventure to talk about. And I actually like a lot of Monte's stuff.
I always am struck with the "adventure module" as a new form of creative writing. Obviously, it's intended to be open ended and interactive which adds complexity. Many of these authors where not experience writers. Most never wrote a screen play or worked in a writer's room. Someone probably should have probably send a lot of these adventures back for revision or just spiked them. Instead, they are ours to fix now, if we can.
i understand. i'm 34, started playing in 2003-2004. for me the tharizdun thingy was considered since the start or an evolution. i understand, there's pieces of evolving lore of other things i don't like as well. i can imagine many people don't like that tharizdun angle.
Welp, they tell you on the back cover that this one "...builds on the groundwork of the original...as well as other classic adventures....none of those...are necessary to [play] this one." This attitude of "I can do a better job than was done before" is a common one of this century, not just Monte Cook, and it has only got worse as time goes on. *Everyone* on social media is a "game designer" anymore. Agreed on the Lortmils--you said it all, I have nothing to add to that. Yeah, vampire Thrommel is a joke--not a good joke, but a joke nonetheless. We're on the same page regarding this. Thanks for voicing our opinion!
Interesting. Good stuff. I played a good portion of this module as a player and it was fun. After the group disbanded, as groups do from time to time, I went back and read it. You make a valid point about the Lortmils. I just referenced the Living Greyhawk campaign book and it clearly states that the Lortmils, at the time of this module, was still heavily under the control of dwarves, their derivative cousins, gnomes (shout out to James of Grogtalk), and “adventurous” halflings. It seems to me that it would be a good role-playing opportunity for PCs to reach out to these kingdoms or settlements to rally against the new Temple. Thoughts?
So, my issue with this review is that you never ran the adventure and don't really mention anything about it other than an off-hand mention of the changes to the elemental nodes. Your entire video is a complaint about the Greyhawk lore. While that is certainly a valid critique, it's probably the least important thing to a group of players and the DM. Yes, some people really dig deep lore... but so many people run their own homebrew or alternate versions of Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms or wherever, that backstory lore is probably the *least* important aspect of an adventure module. Is the adventure fun? Is it challenging? It's it trap laden? Are there puzzles? What are the cool encounters? Is it too deadly? Is it a slog? What could be done better? You don't discuss anything about the module except backstory. Your video is just a lore rant. Don't call it a "review" if it's not a review.
So I just picked this up on DTRPG. I want to run it in 5E for a group. What would y'all change besides the main villain and location? None of my players have played the original. To be honest I was hoping for more of a review and synopsis of this module. I get that you don't like it and it has issues, but this video left me wanting more information of how the module plays out with your great history of Grewhawk driving it. I have really been wanting wotc to release more Greyhawk content but we may never see that happen in 5e (besides Saltmarsh). Also Grog, your cuts are a tad rushed, it was cutting off audio. Thanks for making this, not a lot of videos on this module on YT.
It was trash. The triangle contradiction probably to unseat more Gygax content. It read like nothing more than a tedious hit point slog. "Go hear--kill them. Go there--kill these others. Etc."
I modified the module because I did like Tharizdun as a bad guy. However because I am a Cthulhu fan as well...Tharizdun is however one of the Mythos Gods...I preferred Nyarlathotep however Yog-Sothoth worked as well. I turned it from a return to the temple to an independent temple trying to open the portal to allow the Mythos Gods to access this plane of existence. Lots of changes of course...but it worked out better formy campaigns lol.
@@GreyhawkGrognard afraid of that. That's unfortunate bc a lot of the return modules were useful for combining with originals. I wont bother then. I checked dtrpg and $12 seems high for pdf. I got printed box sets from them for $15 lol
The adventure's forced complexity appears to be an aspect of 3rd edition, IMHO. Take that with a grain of salt. I've never played 3e, but I've stayed at a Holiday Inn Express recently, and read a fair bit of 3e while there, and I find that 3e was very "heavy." Not only were there a lot of rules -- oh, so many rules... -- 3e had a tendency towards high level too, and "High Level" require epic, godlike, adversaries. One has only to look at Epic Level and Elder Evils and the Hordes supplements to understand what I mean. Personally, I always preferred low to mid-level campaigns, with local evils that would not sunder the multiverse. There was also a tendency towards buffing up the Greyhawk Lore in that period. Not a bad thing, if you are into lore. I love lore, but it also dissuades from the DIY aspect of the setting if your Greyhawk has to mimic WotC's Greyhawk, if you get my meaning.
For a similar 1000 subscriber video: You could roast Castle Greyhawk... the one with Roddy and Bullstinkle... Or even the less offensive Ruins of Castle Greyhawk... You've done a lot to inspire me with your scholarship over the years (yes, back to forums and stuff) - I honestly want to do something similar for the World of Tellene, the Kingdoms of Kalamar, setting. There is virtually NOTHING outside of Kenzer's work, nobody really reviews it critically or tries to put the pieces together. The sheer amount of material is staggering... I always loved it because it was a 'new Oerth' to me - less high fantasy than Greenwood's sprawling behemoth and more classically D&D than the post-2e settings. I also love Ravenloft, so I may be tainted...
Putting it in the Lortmils can make sense: they’re the last place someone would suspect the lair of evil to lie, for the reasons you cited. So a smart villain might locate their lair in a secluded part of it as “the last place anyone would think to look”. Secondarily, I think one of the themes of ToEE is evil creeping in to and corrupting otherwise civilized places, so it’s thematically on target to place it there.
Different approaches to older published modules, lore, etc. is going to happen - and "make it just the way you like" still seems like good advice! However, I tend to be more in your "school of thought" and am therefore enjoying these vids!
You review the setting, the context of the module in Greyhawk, and that is fine, it is your speciality. I was hoping to get a review of the module for us folks who have never played the first module, know nothing about Greyhawk's setting and use and adapt the module to set it in another world. I think my players like the module, that I am setting up in Faerun. Of course I have to work a lot to make sense of it. In my campaign I drop most of the TOEE background as it wasn't necessary, dropped Zuggtmoy and Lloth too, and now Tharizdun makes a lot of sense. Without context, Prince Thrormmel's current situation holds, and as the PCs are actually looking for him it will make the finding all the more meaningful. I am sorry you couldn't appreciate this module's potential.
Great point about the Lortmils. I also agree with adding Tharizdun to the mix really complicated things. I tried running it, and looking back, keeping track of all the strings of intrigue to keep it interesting for the players was a hassle. And honestly, all the billion rooms in the fanes did seem impossible but I really dig the NPCs. I've heard the hate this module gets but I personally liked RtToEE. I don't think the book gets enough credit but okay. It has great art, and a cover by Brom. I'll have to double-check the thing you said about Lareth's rune! Just got the Goodman Games book!
I love watching bad reviews of old D&D modules. I've seen some negative comments about Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil before so I am not surprised. It does sound pretty contrived. I'm amused to hear that a evil fortress was careless dropped in the Lortmils, where it clearly should not have been. When the players know more about the geography of their campaign world than the writers and editors, there are going to be problems.
Well this is wotc and even back then they were all about ignoring what came before them. Seems like the mindset going into that module would fit perfectly with their mindset today of erasing the past.
I really couldnt understand how the players were suppose to figure out how to find the secret phrases to get the keys for the nodes. Just made no sense to me.
Interesting you focus so much on the Lore. I end up rewriting nearly everything that is and has been to fit in with my own configuration. That said, I don't religiously follow Greyhawk, just casually. I am more interested in a review of the playability of the module. You are definitely a Greyhawk Grognard!
What I've never understood is why would Lareth ever wear that symbol? He's working for Loth who is not exactly happy with House Eilserv's defection. Right? I'm just now starting to spin it around where the PCs run into/ fight Lareth's forces but ultimately figure out he's here to spy on the Temple as much as the PCs are.
He's overtly working for the Temple (and thus the Eye of Fire symbol), but is secretly working for Lolth. Just like if she had an agent inside House Eilservs, that agent would still wear the copper staff device of that house.
I think Tharizdun is actually a more evocative bbeg for the story arc than Zuggotmoy. In retrospect this connects T1-4 Elemental Evil more into S4 Tsojcanth (With Elemental Earth, Demons, and Iuz) and WG4 Tharizdun (And it goes around) which were originally tied together through narrative as well as being considered to be WG1-4 together. I think combining these together as a Tharizdun super campaign, adding some of the Return stuff to T1-4, with a homebrew epilogue would actually be pretty fun. I think the whole iconography thing isn't a big deal, Tharizdun is known to be a trickster elder evil after all, so it has gone through many forms. Seeing the return to the temple as overstuffed and unecessary is a bit strange to me imo since T1-4 in the first place was already considered to be overstuffed as a multi-faction conspiracy dungeon, the source material feels pretty similar.
Yeah, I know this is an old video but I always had a problem with this module too. They obviously shoe-horned the whole thing together in order to sell off the ToEE name. This could just be a "Return to the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun" in Perrenland and just leave ToEE completely out of it.
our gm made it a great game by writing introductory texts for many important characters. i dont hate the idea with tharizdun, but i agree that it would work exactly the same without him.
I heard him just fine, turn up your volume. @GG, what do you use to edit and record? I am a YT content creator myself, I use OBS to record and Premiere Pro to edit. I do use a compressor and limiter when recording to keep my voice even and loud enough, in premiere I use a program called Alex Audio Butler to help manage my audio, which can contain 3 to 10 different audio tracks.
as a non hardcore D&D player i will never understand the hype around the temple of elemental evil after reading it twice. The little "story" there is almost non existend (even if i liked Nuln )and the way the dungeon is made is kinda.... well basic. You really didn't feel any "elemental" in it imho
Old school games don't have to be about story. They are location-based adventures, and the "story" comes from how the PCs interact with the setting. Any "story" is just a framework designed to get the PCs into the location (usually a dungeon).
No disrespect intended, but i ran this when it came out. We learned the d20 rules during the playthrough. It was fantastic and we still tell tales. A three year campaign, 6-8 hours almost every Saturday night. I think it was the adventure hook i invented that really sold it.
As a guy who has run G1-3 and D1-3 numerous times, I need a little help building a substitute for Q1 which just doesn't fit. Eclavdra is the first 'Primary Villain' so taking out Lolth is doing her work really. Was wondering if this would give me any pieces I could re-purpose to fuel that storyline as I have some nephews I'm building a campaign for. A 1-20+ long termer. Between reworked modules and homebrewed stuff I've tweaked over the decades I have enough to get very reliably to D3. Ah well, if need be I can always rework the Inferno from Judges Guild
Have you checked out my Q2 module? It's intended to replace Q1, and reintroduces the Elder Elemental God into the scenario. It's available as a free download on my blog.
@@GreyhawkGrognard I'll be checking out D4 as well. I called mine D3 1/2 years ago which was built on notes from running D3 previously. It tied certain merchant clans loosely to certain Drow Houses, introduced a few gang factions, lower level nobles ready to backstab, etc etc. I'm guessing I'll D4 to be valuable as well as Q2!
I have both modules, the temple of elemental evil and the Return to it.. to be honest the latter (Return to temple of elemental evil is a much mcuh better scenario, maps, environment, maps, lots of side quest. the original is very bland open the door kick the monster type, kinda borin... so i recommend people that have played neither.. don't bother with the first Temple of Elemental Evil module and just play the Return to Temple of Elemental Evil you will save a huge amount of time that will serve nothing other than rolling dice and being bored playing the first one.
I loved T1 and used it often in my middle school years (in conjunction with B2 to expand possible adventures by putting them in close proximity) as a base for whichever gaming group I was running for. I picked up T1-4 when it came out and was . . . . . less than impressed. I liked the expansion of the surface area with Nulb (minimalist as it was) and used some of that added on to T1/B2 for a summer camp group I ran adventures for as a camp counselor when I was in high school. If I remember correctly, I merged Nulb with the more expanded village from N1 (Cult of the Reptile God). The Temple itself I remember using bits and pieces of as small dungeons for the campers to explore/clear but the majority of the Temple I discarded as basic nonsense. Learning later that T2-4 was basically a lot of Gary Gygax's cribbed and piecemeal notes for the Temple he ran that were assigned to Frank Mentzer to interpret and make into a supermodule means that the feeling of disorganization made sense. The change to Tharizdun made the nonsensibility of T1-4 seem sensible in retrospect. I loved Tharizdun as a conceptual being and I could see a lot of potential after reading WG4, but Return was not it. I picked it up cheaply using trade credit, but I still feel a bit cheated for that. In the original, the Elemental Evil made great sense, if it wasn't very well carried out in the original. I use a similar concept in my own campaign world, so obviously it worked for my mind. But Tharizdun hiding behind them . . . ? No. I never ran T2-4 except as above mentioned: taking sections out to make them into mini dungeons unrelated to the original work. I can't imagine using Return for anything more than a gift to a gamer I'm not overly fond of. 😀
It's unfortunate that you feel the need to claim you know what Monte Cook thought or said when designing this adventure. You would do better to just analyze the contents and not the writers.
Love your videos (recently discovered the channel) and am happy to be going through them one by one giving the 'Thumbs Up' and commenting to help the TH-cam algorithm spread. .... But boy are you WRONG about this one! Tharizdun's addition to R-ToEE is nothing short of *genius*. Which is no surprise of course, since it is Monte Cook, afterall. Anyway, I'm looking forward to watching your next video!
While I appreciate your viewpoint on what is wrong with the backstory for RttToEE, you don't actually review the adventure. We were promised a review.;-) As a side note, while I don't think there are many viewers of this channel who don't know the context background info of the original temple, those that haven't read/run/played the original would be totally lost. Not that I'm interested in torturing you, but I am interested in hearing your breakdown of the actual adventure. What worked, what is salvageable (or how you'd tailor to suit other than a relocation), what encounters or other plot points/npcs/factions didn't work, and other details like maps or how to use this thing and tie it into a grognard greyhawk sandbox game.. Honestly, while I love the original Temple it takes a lot of work to make it 'work' for most campaigns. The Temple itself is a mess (that I'm hoping Goodman's version fixes somewhat), with most groups ime really feeling the slog/grind about mid-adventure barring quite a bit of work on the DM's part. RttToEE came at the end of 3rd ed and it didn't fit my campaign at the time, but I'm wondering if this one can be reconciled with the original and how to go about it including what to throw out. In relation to Thrommel, what do you think would be the consequences on the Wars if he was freed by adventurers? Or other unintended consequences (and if not freed, why was he kept in the Temple and by who in your opinion?) As far as a 1000 subscriber target, my suggestion would be Return to the Tomb of Horrors.
I guess because I've gone through the original ToEE ad nauseum for years on the blog side, I assume my viewers here are up to speed on my understanding of it. But you're right; it's a completely unwarranted assumption. (Everyone; go to the blog and read all the posts about ToEE!) In all seriousness, I do agree a video on the original is warranted.
@@GreyhawkGrognard Well I do expect you'd get to ToEE eventually. Especially after OAR #6 is released from Goodman Games. As an aside on that I suspect they changed Otis & Elmo a bit (from what I've seen Twenty Sides to Every Story channel's playtest) and the nature of Rufus & Burne with their relation to Hommlet. Could be DMing changes but I don't think so...not sure I like the alteration to Otis (he was supposed to be an ex-member of the Citadel of Eight). Oh and I'm pretty sure Goodman ties the Black Chamber directly to Lareth's command rather than a group of 'other' brigands from Nulb. Anyway you still owe a in detail review of RttToEE.;-). It's why I subscribed;-). I want to hear your thoughts on Hommlet's (possible) future evolution (heh Spugnoir setting up shop:-), or things like the dragon in the moathouse. Not to mention the change to Lareth (heh...expect a rant on that;-). What you liked or what's useable from Cook's version, what bits you'd tailor, and what you'd toss.
@@MrCSeiberlin I hate to disappoint, but what you got is what you're going to get. This channel focuses on the setting as a whole, and so my review focused on the relationship of the module to the setting, rather than being a deep tactical analysis of how it might play out on the table.
Regardless of how well the retcon was accomplished, I really like the idea of making the big bad Tharizdun. He always should have been the power behind the temple. He makes an excellent behind the scenes villain that keeps popping up in forgotten, out of the way places.
Couldn't disagree more, obviously.
Agree with your takes on Thrommel and Lortmil. I liked the Tharizdun twist. Especially today as yes, sometimes a single unifying concept can be behind the evil of a lot of things, without them even realizing it. But I would like to see a proper take with original intent on it as well. I think a 3rd party publisher could do a good job here.
"However, in the Hateful Wars (498-510 CY), the combined Ulek states, with cooperation from Veluna and the demi-humans of the Kron Hills, broke the power of the Euroz and Jebli hordes which had nested in the Lortmils and were attempting to spread into the lands around. These humanoids were finally driven out and scattered - some fleeing northward toward the Yatils, but most (having wiser leadership) taking to the Suss forest and thence to the rugged mountains of the Pomarj."
-- "The Pomarj" entry of "A Guide to the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Setting" from the 1983 World of Greyhawk boxed set
I remember buying RttToEE and regretting buying it. I did get a nice amount of money for it when I traded it in a couple of years ago. So, no buyer's remorse here. :-P
I thought there were a few solid contributions, like the well in the Moathouse... use of the grell, which is a pretty EEG-ish beastie, was quite inspired.
But I agree that bringing Tharizdun into it was overshoot. Gygax himself realized in between writing Hommlet and ToEE that use of Lolth was unnecessary when you have roughly 600 possible demon lords/ladies who could occupy that role in the story and diluted the uniqueness of D3/Q1 (as flawed as the latter ended up: we need Q2, Bloch!!!! :) ).
In the end, I'm glad the D&D3E folks looked back on an earlier era with nostalgia enough to revisit it... I just wish they'd looked back on it with a bit more respect for the source material.
BTW, the mind behind the Elemental Princes was Lew Pulsipher. I don't mind their usage here, but making them lieutenants to the EEG makes me happier than putting them under Tharizdun.
Q2 is coming!! No idea when, but it's started. :-)
Ugh, you're dredging up all these repressed memories. You could turn this video into a series and you'd never run out of terrible things in this adventure to talk about. And I actually like a lot of Monte's stuff.
I remember glancing over the multiple "Return ..." modules , , , never really inspired me to explore them in depth or run them.
I'm currently running the module, my biggest issue with it was how boring it got running the players through the Crater Ridge Mines.
The writers of today never seem to care about what came before. I hate that attitude. Nice review, Joe.
I always am struck with the "adventure module" as a new form of creative writing. Obviously, it's intended to be open ended and interactive which adds complexity. Many of these authors where not experience writers. Most never wrote a screen play or worked in a writer's room. Someone probably should have probably send a lot of these adventures back for revision or just spiked them. Instead, they are ours to fix now, if we can.
Generally happens when censorship becomes the norm and revisionists become employed lol
i understand. i'm 34, started playing in 2003-2004. for me the tharizdun thingy was considered since the start or an evolution. i understand, there's pieces of evolving lore of other things i don't like as well. i can imagine many people don't like that tharizdun angle.
Makes me glad I never bought the return module.
Welp, they tell you on the back cover that this one "...builds on the groundwork of the original...as well as other classic adventures....none of those...are necessary to [play] this one."
This attitude of "I can do a better job than was done before" is a common one of this century, not just Monte Cook, and it has only got worse as time goes on. *Everyone* on social media is a "game designer" anymore.
Agreed on the Lortmils--you said it all, I have nothing to add to that.
Yeah, vampire Thrommel is a joke--not a good joke, but a joke nonetheless.
We're on the same page regarding this. Thanks for voicing our opinion!
Interesting. Good stuff. I played a good portion of this module as a player and it was fun. After the group disbanded, as groups do from time to time, I went back and read it. You make a valid point about the Lortmils. I just referenced the Living Greyhawk campaign book and it clearly states that the Lortmils, at the time of this module, was still heavily under the control of dwarves, their derivative cousins, gnomes (shout out to James of Grogtalk), and “adventurous” halflings. It seems to me that it would be a good role-playing opportunity for PCs to reach out to these kingdoms or settlements to rally against the new Temple. Thoughts?
So, my issue with this review is that you never ran the adventure and don't really mention anything about it other than an off-hand mention of the changes to the elemental nodes.
Your entire video is a complaint about the Greyhawk lore. While that is certainly a valid critique, it's probably the least important thing to a group of players and the DM. Yes, some people really dig deep lore... but so many people run their own homebrew or alternate versions of Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms or wherever, that backstory lore is probably the *least* important aspect of an adventure module.
Is the adventure fun? Is it challenging? It's it trap laden? Are there puzzles? What are the cool encounters? Is it too deadly? Is it a slog? What could be done better?
You don't discuss anything about the module except backstory. Your video is just a lore rant. Don't call it a "review" if it's not a review.
So I just picked this up on DTRPG. I want to run it in 5E for a group. What would y'all change besides the main villain and location? None of my players have played the original.
To be honest I was hoping for more of a review and synopsis of this module. I get that you don't like it and it has issues, but this video left me wanting more information of how the module plays out with your great history of Grewhawk driving it.
I have really been wanting wotc to release more Greyhawk content but we may never see that happen in 5e (besides Saltmarsh).
Also Grog, your cuts are a tad rushed, it was cutting off audio.
Thanks for making this, not a lot of videos on this module on YT.
I wonder if this adventure would have benefited from being a stand alone module not tied at all to the TOEE.
It was trash. The triangle contradiction probably to unseat more Gygax content. It read like nothing more than a tedious hit point slog. "Go hear--kill them. Go there--kill these others. Etc."
I modified the module because I did like Tharizdun as a bad guy. However because I am a Cthulhu fan as well...Tharizdun is however one of the Mythos Gods...I preferred Nyarlathotep however Yog-Sothoth worked as well. I turned it from a return to the temple to an independent temple trying to open the portal to allow the Mythos Gods to access this plane of existence. Lots of changes of course...but it worked out better formy campaigns lol.
Do you plan on picking up Goodman Games’ new version of ToEE? I didn’t get it, but I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on it if you did.
Yes, I am definitely getting it. I haven't gotten any of their others, but ToEE is so close to my heart, I can't pass it up.
Mine was delivered this week it’s awesome!
Is there enough good material in the module to boost the original module ?
To be honest, no.
@@GreyhawkGrognard afraid of that. That's unfortunate bc a lot of the return modules were useful for combining with originals. I wont bother then. I checked dtrpg and $12 seems high for pdf. I got printed box sets from them for $15 lol
Turning Thrommel from a fake vampire to a real one seems really low.
The adventure's forced complexity appears to be an aspect of 3rd edition, IMHO. Take that with a grain of salt. I've never played 3e, but I've stayed at a Holiday Inn Express recently, and read a fair bit of 3e while there, and I find that 3e was very "heavy." Not only were there a lot of rules -- oh, so many rules... -- 3e had a tendency towards high level too, and "High Level" require epic, godlike, adversaries. One has only to look at Epic Level and Elder Evils and the Hordes supplements to understand what I mean. Personally, I always preferred low to mid-level campaigns, with local evils that would not sunder the multiverse.
There was also a tendency towards buffing up the Greyhawk Lore in that period. Not a bad thing, if you are into lore. I love lore, but it also dissuades from the DIY aspect of the setting if your Greyhawk has to mimic WotC's Greyhawk, if you get my meaning.
For a similar 1000 subscriber video: You could roast Castle Greyhawk... the one with Roddy and Bullstinkle... Or even the less offensive Ruins of Castle Greyhawk...
You've done a lot to inspire me with your scholarship over the years (yes, back to forums and stuff) - I honestly want to do something similar for the World of Tellene, the Kingdoms of Kalamar, setting. There is virtually NOTHING outside of Kenzer's work, nobody really reviews it critically or tries to put the pieces together. The sheer amount of material is staggering... I always loved it because it was a 'new Oerth' to me - less high fantasy than Greenwood's sprawling behemoth and more classically D&D than the post-2e settings. I also love Ravenloft, so I may be tainted...
Heeeey, congrats on hitting the subscriber mark! ^^
Putting it in the Lortmils can make sense: they’re the last place someone would suspect the lair of evil to lie, for the reasons you cited. So a smart villain might locate their lair in a secluded part of it as “the last place anyone would think to look”. Secondarily, I think one of the themes of ToEE is evil creeping in to and corrupting otherwise civilized places, so it’s thematically on target to place it there.
Agree on the module not being too great, but always liked reading redo's
I mean this should just be called The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun (1982) 🤷♂️
Different approaches to older published modules, lore, etc. is going to happen - and "make it just the way you like" still seems like good advice! However, I tend to be more in your "school of thought" and am therefore enjoying these vids!
You review the setting, the context of the module in Greyhawk, and that is fine, it is your speciality. I was hoping to get a review of the module for us folks who have never played the first module, know nothing about Greyhawk's setting and use and adapt the module to set it in another world. I think my players like the module, that I am setting up in Faerun. Of course I have to work a lot to make sense of it. In my campaign I drop most of the TOEE background as it wasn't necessary, dropped Zuggtmoy and Lloth too, and now Tharizdun makes a lot of sense. Without context, Prince Thrormmel's current situation holds, and as the PCs are actually looking for him it will make the finding all the more meaningful.
I am sorry you couldn't appreciate this module's potential.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Great point about the Lortmils. I also agree with adding Tharizdun to the mix really complicated things. I tried running it, and looking back, keeping track of all the strings of intrigue to keep it interesting for the players was a hassle. And honestly, all the billion rooms in the fanes did seem impossible but I really dig the NPCs. I've heard the hate this module gets but I personally liked RtToEE. I don't think the book gets enough credit but okay. It has great art, and a cover by Brom. I'll have to double-check the thing you said about Lareth's rune! Just got the Goodman Games book!
I love watching bad reviews of old D&D modules. I've seen some negative comments about Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil before so I am not surprised. It does sound pretty contrived. I'm amused to hear that a evil fortress was careless dropped in the Lortmils, where it clearly should not have been. When the players know more about the geography of their campaign world than the writers and editors, there are going to be problems.
Well this is wotc and even back then they were all about ignoring what came before them. Seems like the mindset going into that module would fit perfectly with their mindset today of erasing the past.
Put it in the Helllfurnaces!
I really couldnt understand how the players were suppose to figure out how to find the secret phrases to get the keys for the nodes. Just made no sense to me.
Why bother with knowing source material when you can just steal the name and be lazy! haha
Interesting you focus so much on the Lore.
I end up rewriting nearly everything that is and has been to fit in with my own configuration. That said, I don't religiously follow Greyhawk, just casually.
I am more interested in a review of the playability of the module.
You are definitely a Greyhawk Grognard!
I do the videos I want to do. Sorry you didn't like this one.
Did you produce a walkthrough video for ToEE?
Did you make a video for the original temple of Elemental Evil?
Not yet, but I'm sure it'll come some day.
@@GreyhawkGrognard that would be great along with one covering Night Below
Nice website also
@@jctxcboy36 Thanks!
What I've never understood is why would Lareth ever wear that symbol? He's working for Loth who is not exactly happy with House Eilserv's defection. Right? I'm just now starting to spin it around where the PCs run into/ fight Lareth's forces but ultimately figure out he's here to spy on the Temple as much as the PCs are.
He's overtly working for the Temple (and thus the Eye of Fire symbol), but is secretly working for Lolth. Just like if she had an agent inside House Eilservs, that agent would still wear the copper staff device of that house.
I think Tharizdun is actually a more evocative bbeg for the story arc than Zuggotmoy. In retrospect this connects T1-4 Elemental Evil more into S4 Tsojcanth (With Elemental Earth, Demons, and Iuz) and WG4 Tharizdun (And it goes around) which were originally tied together through narrative as well as being considered to be WG1-4 together. I think combining these together as a Tharizdun super campaign, adding some of the Return stuff to T1-4, with a homebrew epilogue would actually be pretty fun. I think the whole iconography thing isn't a big deal, Tharizdun is known to be a trickster elder evil after all, so it has gone through many forms. Seeing the return to the temple as overstuffed and unecessary is a bit strange to me imo since T1-4 in the first place was already considered to be overstuffed as a multi-faction conspiracy dungeon, the source material feels pretty similar.
Yeah, I know this is an old video but I always had a problem with this module too. They obviously shoe-horned the whole thing together in order to sell off the ToEE name. This could just be a "Return to the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun" in Perrenland and just leave ToEE completely out of it.
Spot on as usual. Thank you for this review. Quick question: Will your new Kickstarter items have orange spines?
Thanks so much, and yes they will! :-)
@@GreyhawkGrognard awesome! I only wish they were hardcover! 👍🏽
@@VhaidraSaga Well of course they're hardcovers! They won't even be available in softcover. Just hardcover and pdf. :-)
@@GreyhawkGrognard for some reason I thought they were paperbacks! Wow, I'm even more excited about these now! 😱
I really like the moathouse dungeon update and i plan to use parts of it when i run my revamp
The FF credits Lewis Pulsipher as creating the Elemental Princes of Evil.
Man, this sounds familiar. See current rehashed movies that ignore legacy characters and plots.
our gm made it a great game by writing introductory texts for many important characters.
i dont hate the idea with tharizdun, but i agree that it would work exactly the same without him.
It would be great if you recorded at a high enough volume for us to hear you.
It's the first time I'm doing one of these. Still learning!
I heard him just fine, turn up your volume.
@GG, what do you use to edit and record?
I am a YT content creator myself, I use OBS to record and Premiere Pro to edit. I do use a compressor and limiter when recording to keep my voice even and loud enough, in premiere I use a program called Alex Audio Butler to help manage my audio, which can contain 3 to 10 different audio tracks.
@@7578061111 I use VideoPad. I'm nothing close to an expert or professional, though. I just do this because I love the material.
as a non hardcore D&D player i will never understand the hype around the temple of elemental evil after reading it twice. The little "story" there is almost non existend (even if i liked Nuln )and the way the dungeon is made is kinda.... well basic. You really didn't feel any "elemental" in it imho
Old school games don't have to be about story. They are location-based adventures, and the "story" comes from how the PCs interact with the setting. Any "story" is just a framework designed to get the PCs into the location (usually a dungeon).
No disrespect intended, but i ran this when it came out. We learned the d20 rules during the playthrough. It was fantastic and we still tell tales. A three year campaign, 6-8 hours almost every Saturday night. I think it was the adventure hook i invented that really sold it.
Nice one.
As a guy who has run G1-3 and D1-3 numerous times, I need a little help building a substitute for Q1 which just doesn't fit. Eclavdra is the first 'Primary Villain' so taking out Lolth is doing her work really. Was wondering if this would give me any pieces I could re-purpose to fuel that storyline as I have some nephews I'm building a campaign for. A 1-20+ long termer. Between reworked modules and homebrewed stuff I've tweaked over the decades I have enough to get very reliably to D3. Ah well, if need be I can always rework the Inferno from Judges Guild
Have you checked out my Q2 module? It's intended to replace Q1, and reintroduces the Elder Elemental God into the scenario. It's available as a free download on my blog.
@@GreyhawkGrognard Sounds like what Im looking for!
@@GreyhawkGrognard I'll be checking out D4 as well. I called mine D3 1/2 years ago which was built on notes from running D3 previously. It tied certain merchant clans loosely to certain Drow Houses, introduced a few gang factions, lower level nobles ready to backstab, etc etc. I'm guessing I'll D4 to be valuable as well as Q2!
@@Snoil Awesome! Let me know how it goes.
I have both modules, the temple of elemental evil and the Return to it.. to be honest the latter (Return to temple of elemental evil is a much mcuh better scenario, maps, environment, maps, lots of side quest. the original is very bland open the door kick the monster type, kinda borin...
so i recommend people that have played neither.. don't bother with the first Temple of Elemental Evil module and just play the Return to Temple of Elemental Evil you will save a huge amount of time that will serve nothing other than rolling dice and being bored playing the first one.
I loved T1 and used it often in my middle school years (in conjunction with B2 to expand possible adventures by putting them in close proximity) as a base for whichever gaming group I was running for. I picked up T1-4 when it came out and was . . . . . less than impressed. I liked the expansion of the surface area with Nulb (minimalist as it was) and used some of that added on to T1/B2 for a summer camp group I ran adventures for as a camp counselor when I was in high school. If I remember correctly, I merged Nulb with the more expanded village from N1 (Cult of the Reptile God). The Temple itself I remember using bits and pieces of as small dungeons for the campers to explore/clear but the majority of the Temple I discarded as basic nonsense. Learning later that T2-4 was basically a lot of Gary Gygax's cribbed and piecemeal notes for the Temple he ran that were assigned to Frank Mentzer to interpret and make into a supermodule means that the feeling of disorganization made sense.
The change to Tharizdun made the nonsensibility of T1-4 seem sensible in retrospect. I loved Tharizdun as a conceptual being and I could see a lot of potential after reading WG4, but Return was not it. I picked it up cheaply using trade credit, but I still feel a bit cheated for that. In the original, the Elemental Evil made great sense, if it wasn't very well carried out in the original. I use a similar concept in my own campaign world, so obviously it worked for my mind. But Tharizdun hiding behind them . . . ? No.
I never ran T2-4 except as above mentioned: taking sections out to make them into mini dungeons unrelated to the original work. I can't imagine using Return for anything more than a gift to a gamer I'm not overly fond of. 😀
I would make a PDF and alter the original vet an insert and change to my liking.
It's unfortunate that you feel the need to claim you know what Monte Cook thought or said when designing this adventure. You would do better to just analyze the contents and not the writers.
Narrow sighted, but I see where you are coming from
Love your videos (recently discovered the channel) and am happy to be going through them one by one giving the 'Thumbs Up' and commenting to help the TH-cam algorithm spread. .... But boy are you WRONG about this one! Tharizdun's addition to R-ToEE is nothing short of *genius*. Which is no surprise of course, since it is Monte Cook, afterall. Anyway, I'm looking forward to watching your next video!
While I appreciate your viewpoint on what is wrong with the backstory for RttToEE, you don't actually review the adventure. We were promised a review.;-)
As a side note, while I don't think there are many viewers of this channel who don't know the context background info of the original temple, those that haven't read/run/played the original would be totally lost. Not that I'm interested in torturing you, but I am interested in hearing your breakdown of the actual adventure. What worked, what is salvageable (or how you'd tailor to suit other than a relocation), what encounters or other plot points/npcs/factions didn't work, and other details like maps or how to use this thing and tie it into a grognard greyhawk sandbox game..
Honestly, while I love the original Temple it takes a lot of work to make it 'work' for most campaigns. The Temple itself is a mess (that I'm hoping Goodman's version fixes somewhat), with most groups ime really feeling the slog/grind about mid-adventure barring quite a bit of work on the DM's part. RttToEE came at the end of 3rd ed and it didn't fit my campaign at the time, but I'm wondering if this one can be reconciled with the original and how to go about it including what to throw out.
In relation to Thrommel, what do you think would be the consequences on the Wars if he was freed by adventurers? Or other unintended consequences (and if not freed, why was he kept in the Temple and by who in your opinion?)
As far as a 1000 subscriber target, my suggestion would be Return to the Tomb of Horrors.
I guess because I've gone through the original ToEE ad nauseum for years on the blog side, I assume my viewers here are up to speed on my understanding of it. But you're right; it's a completely unwarranted assumption.
(Everyone; go to the blog and read all the posts about ToEE!)
In all seriousness, I do agree a video on the original is warranted.
@@GreyhawkGrognard Well I do expect you'd get to ToEE eventually. Especially after OAR #6 is released from Goodman Games. As an aside on that I suspect they changed Otis & Elmo a bit (from what I've seen Twenty Sides to Every Story channel's playtest) and the nature of Rufus & Burne with their relation to Hommlet. Could be DMing changes but I don't think so...not sure I like the alteration to Otis (he was supposed to be an ex-member of the Citadel of Eight). Oh and I'm pretty sure Goodman ties the Black Chamber directly to Lareth's command rather than a group of 'other' brigands from Nulb.
Anyway you still owe a in detail review of RttToEE.;-). It's why I subscribed;-). I want to hear your thoughts on Hommlet's (possible) future evolution (heh Spugnoir setting up shop:-), or things like the dragon in the moathouse. Not to mention the change to Lareth (heh...expect a rant on that;-). What you liked or what's useable from Cook's version, what bits you'd tailor, and what you'd toss.
@@MrCSeiberlin I hate to disappoint, but what you got is what you're going to get. This channel focuses on the setting as a whole, and so my review focused on the relationship of the module to the setting, rather than being a deep tactical analysis of how it might play out on the table.