Yes Gary Gygax play tested some of his material for this module on our group of players. I was there back in the day in Lake Geneva. First met Gary playing WW2 naval miniatures at Parks college on the gym floor. Had no idea D&D was even a game until he invited a bunch of us to try it out. Then we got hooked. Have been playing it ever since.
Thanks for playing back then so keep Gary's dream alive so the rest of us would enjoy it. They're all coming back! Like a Necromancer revived all past players. I am back after about a 30 year break. Never thought I'd play again. A friend and co-worker got me interested and when one of my sons mentioned he'd like to play? Well I set about buying books, dice and miniatures right away. I have an airbrush and a full set of paint of tools. Painting on the side for the friend that got me into the game again, his Star Wars Legion minis. I had many late nights with great friends at my Dad's house and at my Mom's. My parents were divorced you see. I played at one group and DM'd the other group. Friends that I have known all of their life were my group I DM'd for. Getting ready to work in Ohio again for a month. Two of those friends still live right down the road from my Dad. I'll have to take my stuff and run a one shot for them! I'd give anything to thank Mr Gygax for the fun and adventure.
@@saltykrug I also have returned to playing after a 30 year break. All that time ago I had spent 10 years creating a campaign and had everything on paper. One of my friends asked me last year if I would be interested in playing AD&D again as he knew I had a lot of DM experience and an entire campaign already created. The difference this time is we are playing on the virtual table top system of Roll20. I have spent a great deal of time converting my campaign to be playable on an online format. I purchased Dungeon Painter Studio on Steam and have put over 1,000 hours into making the maps to my adventures digital. I am so happy to be playing again so the time spent is worth it!
I hope Gary appreciated just how special the game was that he created (with help, but primarily him). You have a great story, I brag about how early I was in it, 1982, 7 and playing with older cousins.... you got me beat. Literally one of the first players ever. Respect. So my question, characters from your group show up as NPCs in the module... are you in it?
It has been 30 years..i have a red box set players guide signed by Gary..it is actually well worn i did not know who he was when i met him ..i was just tryin to play the game.he gave me a book to use n wrote his last name in it..i thought it was so he would get it back at the end..when he was leaving i tried to give it back he said keep it..i didnt know who he was until waaay later my older brother in law(married to my sister) told me who he was..i was only like 12 years old..i still have all my old books..im gonna dig em out n play again..
For those who are planning to work with the 1st edition AD&D version of the module and might want to include the elemental princes, statistics for them can be found on pages 31-33 of the Fiend Folio (also 1st edition, naturally).
If you ask me, the Zuggtmoy angle makes a lot of sense. Because no one would follow her church of fungi, at least not in numbers to go against her hated rival Lolth, Zuggtmoy needed to trick people into worshipping her and thus giving her the power she needed. This is why no one knows it’s her running things, and explains why there isn’t much actual element stuff in the temple. It is also a nice twist; everyone expected it to be some elemental power, but instead it was something no one expected. If she had not have been trapped ten years prior, Zuggtmoy would be well on her way to having the power to take on Lolth. Iuz would intervene to his own ends, of course, but only so much as to keep them fighting so neither of them would win the fight, this giving him what he wanted, a nice buffer to keep Lolth from getting too powerful.
I was the dm for this game for our group back in 1985. The game is best played with an evil party. They can interact with the monsters and learn all the subplots as is. The evil party must gain dominance over the monsters and learn how to use the golden skull as there personal tool. Once dominance is obtained they have an evil home base for other campaigns.
There's a half orc that had a small collection of exotic weapons in his room. 1 of those weapons was a double slotted light crossbow. I loved that weapon & used it with an Urdunnir fighter that i created back in 2e. He specialized in it & solely used it within point blank range to cause double damage on top of the damage of 2 bolts hitting. My favorite tactic was hiding in a stone or earthen wall & partially coming out to fire it, then retreating back into the earth/ stone to reload in safety. Then move to a different spot to do it again to baffle the opponents as to where he will emerge from
t1-t4 temple of elemental evil was a mess inside. but that cover 😲😲😲😲. amazing! wow. a rating of 16 for a module that you totally rewrote. you're a much, much more generous judge than i am.
"Rewrite" is a major exaggeration. I changed the plot and altered the boss at the end, and pretty much kept everything else. That hardly qualifies as a rewrite. The encounters were pretty amazing IMHO and for the most part left 'as is' which comprises the bulk of what I presented to my players. :)
I really like your take on the temple of elemental evil, combining both the old-school and 5th edition modules and I'd love to see more videos combining the classics with their modern iterations, it's a great source of inspirations for new DMs such as myself.
We didn't have the temple module after doing hommlet so instead i sent the group to keep on the borderlands chasing routes servants of lareth, ending up changing cult of chaos into another outpost for the temple. I made 3 or 4 more adventures about temple outposts and plots so by the time we finally got the module for the Temple of Elemental evil....our expectations were kinda different than what it was. In the end I ended up changing it's plot to be tied into the D drow modules (which we ended up playing next) ...since lareth had been a cleric of Lloth the plot got changed to where while Zugtmoy was still present (albeit made weaker) the whole operation was a scheme of lloth and the drow. All of the large monsters like the giants and trolls and ogre has been smuggled in from the lower levels where I added a passage to the under dark; they would serve as the first wave of troops to assail the surface before the drow themselves marched forth. The elemental cults I kept mostly as is but gave them a purpose; by regular sacrifices and gather "Elemental Power", they were going to cast an unthinkable high level spell that would unleash a curse for miles around the temple, a magic magical haze that diminished the light of the sun so that the drow wouldn't fear its light. Only the high priest were in on this real scheme, going along with it as they were promised to have high ranking positions in the new drow surface kingdom, generalship over all the ogre and trolls and soldiers they'd gathered.
It is daunting, which is why I suggesting taking license with the two follow up adventures, and mining/ stealing from them without shame. lol. Makes things so much easier!
Thanks for doing TOEE ! I've loved this massive adventure since I bought new off the shelves back in the 80s. I've run it many times and I have never had a party actually finish it. Several have come close but ended in TPKs. Great fun for a DM... not as much for the players. Your suggestions are great and I'll incorporate them into my next attempt to run Temple in 5e. Keep up the good work!
Jon's Vlog is pretty cool. I think I've watched most of his. I DM'd just a very little bit in the 80s but have been DM'ing mostly over the last couple of years or so. I try to incorporate as much old-school-ology into the game as I can but I still need to get some of those modules from the 80s that were so much fun.
Zuggtmoy can have her own dungeon. Something which has been at the back of the mind for years. By the way, I used to pronounce it "Zoogtmoy" (short "oo" as in book) whereas it's apparently "Zugget-moy" ("nugget"). Whatever floats in your moat. I like the re-working of the Temple very much. Well done, Captcorajus!
According to every pronunciation guide I've ever read its suppose to sound like a fungal gooey mess of 'muck'... ie. "Zuggt-moy", but you know, who the hell knows. lol
I just started it playing, heard that sweet sweet R&B organ bass drums groove and it's time for another awesome review by the Captain! Old School Rocks!!!
hi capt-c...I watched this video twice now over the past couple weeks, and I know i have seen it before because I have watched your videos for a few years. I bought this book between viewings. Of course the main reason is because I wanted a good copy of Village of Hommlet, and I thought maybe I could get more value if I got this rather than the original Hommlet. Maybe I should be a little embarrassed, but I never really liked "mega-dungeons" as a player, and certainly not as a DM. Plus, I don't like pre-made plots, but sandboxes. So, I really liked your idea of using that map from the 4e dungeon, and it so happens I have all of those dungeons including the Shadowfell one (and that is plenty big for me)!! So I think using that map for what's behind that door to be enough!!!! Plus, now it don't need to have weird groups of monsters in there: bugbears, trolls, and other things that woudl probably kill each other in such close quarters. First, I would set up Hommlet (or some other town) as the homebase with a sandbox around it, and this crazy Temple would be maybe one adventure site that the characters could visit. Maybe that magic seal could keep them out until they do quests around the area and eventually find a special key or scroll that could open it. Then that could be the culmination of the sandbox. Meanwhile there would be rumors and occurrences that build up the hooks around it. Turns out there is a something in there causing all of it, and the characters job is to stop it to save their people in Hommlet. I think this would be a more appealing way for me to run a game than to make players slog through levels upon levels of "why is this monster here?" You gave me some good ideas that I could warp to suit my way of doing things. So, that makes the overall rating of this video..."Wowie!" PS...Maybe we just make that "something" just a bunch of pirates in the basement who have a smuggling operation going for an ultimate climax! Wicked plot twist...you were not in Hommlet, but Saltmarsh all along! Suckers!!!! WOOOOOOOOH!!!!
I am glad you give us some ideas, please keep doing that! I never DMed or played Temple because my group had already moved away from straight AD&D toward our own system by 1984 (it borrowed mainly from AD&D, Palladium, and Simon's Necronomicon) and our taste for dungeon crawls was gone by then. If I were to do so, the main thing I would try to get away from is the huge "dungeon crawl" by putting the levels of the temple in separate locations so they could be more like a bunch of related "one-shot-like" mini-quests that lead to completing the big quest. Maybe add a quest giver -- like an scholarly NPC who is trying to prevent something evil from happening and might require the party to gain information (e.g., by finding him books, communicating with people or ghosts, etc.) the would lead them to the other places to root out evil things (i.e., the dungeon levels in the published module would not be accessed simply by walking down the stairs from the one above, but found in different locations on the world map). So there would be travel, exploration & research required, rather than just go in to one convenient location with all the levels laid out and no real monster ecology. I am not convinced by the flow of going down another level and there you are in the cult lair, another level you get something else, etc. That just sounds like too rough of a neighborhood for any of the monsters to survive. Thanks captain!!! :D
Oh, yeah, we played Palladium, Role Master, and even Fantasy Hero for awhile. I remember those days! Princes of the Apocalypse has no less then 8 large dungeon areas, at different locations, though they are all interconnected through a massive underground cave network.
@@captcorajus One more source you should check out if you don't know it -- Bruce Galloway "Fantasy Wargaming" from 1981). He gives a great critique of magic and monster deployment in AD&D in that book, and I have borrowed some of his ideas since my friend gave me the book for Christmas in 1983. This book and the group of friends I played with in late 1984-1986 make it hard for me to play at tables where the game quality is not what I am looking for. But when you do find a good group, it is so much more interesting.
@@BTsMusicChannel I'm very aware. I have the book sitting on my shelf. lol. The treatise on fantasy game systems is interesting. The game system in the back is pretty much unplayable, but the articles beforehand are pretty good.
@@captcorajus Agreed, it is not a system to actually use as a stand-alone. I really like your channel and also Seth Skorkowski's. I will definitely visit Jon's at some point. Thanks.
Ahh the memories and strong feelings of nostalgia of 1990/1 come flooding back with this campaign. It took our group almost 2 years to complete this campaign, with regular weekly sessions. It is a monster of a campaign, a massive dungeon crawl that if played carefully, will give your group many many sessions of pure awesome D&D delight. I recall losing my character on the first level when we made the tragic mistake of splitting the party. My character failed his morale check [can't recall why?] and ran from the melee the party was in, sprinting off down a hallway only to run into some Leucrotta which proceeded to turn him into a dog chew toy :( Still, my next character had far better stats [got lucky with the rolls during creation] and was just that bit more effective despite being at least 2 levels behind everyone else. I really like your concept of repurposing the module and it makes more sense. Once you do this then 4 dungeon levels, while being great fun, if somewhat a bit grindy, make not much sense thematically and so changing it up gives the dungeon a more authentic feel Thanks again :).
@@captcorajus It took 2 years because we played RAW and took our time with the dungeons. Despite our DM's previous brain fart [as I outlined in the T1 video comment] he made up for it being consistent and he was always adapting the dungeon denizens responses to each of our forays into the dungeon. This meant we had to be super cautious and retreat constantly once spells etc were exhausted.
@@Talwyn22 That's good DMing right there, especially with a module of this complexity. Certainly, the thing is a beast, with a lot of moving pieces. Which is why I felt the need to get away from the monster menagerie when I ran it.
PCs should never be subject to morale checks. ever. i believe the ad&d dungeon masters guide specifically says so (though i can't cite a page reference). i'd be pretty angry with the DM that essentially killed me with a check that i shouldn't even be making. a fear effect that results in EXACTLY the same result? that's fine.
I have run and played TOEE many times, and each time never completed it. The last time I played, our DM literally had us choking in the Elemental Nodes for months. As soon as we had a chance to leave, we left, never bothering with the last fight because we were sick of the adventure. We did alter the course of the river to flood the lower levels via the secret tunnel in the watchtower.
TOEE one of my personal favorites. Along with the Slavers, and Giants/Descent/Vault/Queen arcs. The older TOEE single player video game is really good also. DDO translated it into the MMO format. Did a pretty decent job with it also. Despite the inevitable mmo grinding in it.
We needed 3 months (playing 1-2 times a week, studenttime was grerat) and I modified it too. The Orb of Golden Death (and it s different owners) was a recurrent part of our 10+ years campaign - a great module!
Re Zuggtmoy as villain, misdirection in the module title was a thing back then, y'know. Expedition to the Barrier Peaks requires very little skill at mountaineering, for example. Half our party had brought skis and winter survival gear when I went through it the first time, and we would have brought sled dogs if we'd been able to find someone to sell us any. Pity we didn't in hindsight - they would have been great for distracting that bloody froghemoth.
Yeah, Jon did a phenomenal break down, he color coded the various sections by factions in the temple to make things easier for the DM to run. It was really good.
What? A fungus cult wouldn't be as popular? But I have heard that in at least one alternate universe, the entire galaxy has a 'mycelial network' running through it, that allows instantaneous transport from one place to another through..... well, magic I suppose, so maybe Zuggotmoy just moved there when her plan here failed? ^_^
A friend of mine had this and gave to me to run. I was 13 at the time. Couldn't quite understand what was going on! Would have loved a synopsis! 😅 Would love to run it now, but that's quite a commitment
Hi Captain! Huge fan! Thank you for all the awesome videos. This module has given me headaches for years, so I really loved your take on modifying it. I have never read the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun, but I was wondering if I ran Temple of Elemental Evil with your modifications, would I still be able to connect it to the Tharizdun module?
This was Great! I'd been wanting to run TOEE for years. Started playing in '79 but missed out on this one BITD. I bought the Goodman Games conversion to 5e and thought I'd run our group through it. Enter Shadowdark and my long burning fuse on OSR finally exploded. Now ironically I'm using the Goodman Games books not for the 5e conversion, but for the way they've cleaned up, organized and expanded the content. I read the 5e text for the improved organization and we play using essentially the 1e stat blocks. As you commented, there are decades of reflection on this module out there on the interwebs and I've been watching and reading tons of it. After weeks of consuming this content I can say that, Very Broadly there seems to be consensus that 1) ToEE is great but 2) it really takes work to make it sing. And while there are ideas out there for how to do that, none that I've come across come as close to what you've described here to my own thoughts on the matter. The modifications you describe are remarkably close to what I've been groping my way toward--but you've already thought it all the way through! I'm not going to mod completely the way you have but there were plenty of great ideas that I'm going to steal. It is really strange how little elemental evil there is in the original. I've been thinking about all the ways to play that up. And the plot as presented seems overly convoluted. The power behind the ToEE is actually a god of fungus? competing with Lolth how exactly? with help from Iuz? And the actual Elemental Evil is completely missing?? I see in the comments that some folks like this as a twist but me, not so much. Most of the cool bits will only really make sense (if you can call it "sense") to the DM. I just don't see players really "getting it" without massive monologuing from villains. Repeatedly. And then only maybe. Your mods draw forth the promise of the premise laid out in Hommlet. I have a strong preference for things to make clear sense. There is a whiff of blasphemy to say that Gygaxian style across all of his modules is eclectic to the point of absurdity, but YMMV. For me, his stuff needs reworking. In the real estate biz looking at an older house that's a solid value but needs work you might say that it has "good bones". ToEE has good bones. Gary's massive creativity gave us a hobby that can take you from childhood into old age. He always strongly encouraged making things your own. That's one of the things I love the most about old school DnD. My group is going to have an epic time with ToEE for the next 18 months. Thanks for the ideas!
Hey Cap, what about the Lendore Island modules from Len Lakofka? One of the few module designers who knew how to place an adventure "plot" into a sandbox and make it work.
I love the video game. We have done this module several times and have left a trail of dead PC's in the ruins each time. I would like to see the actual Gygax version. This is the only published module I am aware of that has things a dwarf's skills work on, like the sloping underground passage. More recently I have had a bit of apprehension when it concerns Frank Mentzer. Several well established original TSR employees have expressed doubts about his ethics and ability.
@@captcorajus ok, I will look for it. These reviews are excellent and a great buyers guide for building up my 2e collection. Have all of the source books but not the modules. Keep up the good work!!!
Hey Capt! Have you seen the Goodman Games ToEE for 5e? And if so, do you think it's worth it to get that one, even if you already own the old AD&D version?
I never really used the Battle System in my games, and its kinda outside the scope of my channel. I tend to stick to either game module, mostly old, but some new, especially if they trace back to an older, classic module. For example, I did a review of "Into the Borderlands" from Goodman Games. I also tend to stick to subject matter I'm rather familiar with, and I'm not really knowledgeable on that particular system.
I wonder how Goodman Games version, coming out in September 2021, will differ from the original version. Also their version will be in 2 books in their OAR game.
I’m impressed with the way you’ve drawn from all sorts of additions and adventures to build on this! I’m also sorry to report that John’s Vlog no longer seems functioning-is there another resource you would suggest for a similar walkthrough?
@@captcorajus I'm from Brazil and just bought the OSR version. I really like your idea of changing it and I was thinking about linking Against the slave lords and Queen of the Spiders. It would be a freaking awesome campaign! Thank you for your great content! Keep rocking!
Great video! I really like how you modified the adventure using RttToEE and PotA to give it a more consistent feeling. Say, you wouldn't have your conversion notes in a handy document, would you? 😉
No, I haven't I was very much disenchanted with that module, and found it a slog to get through. We started that adventure and then abandoned it about half way through.
@@captcorajus I am reading through it. Considering using portions of it and princes of the Apocalypse similar to what you described to add to the Temple of Elemental Evil. Do you happen to have an outline of how you modified your version of ToEE. Not a fan of the lord of Fungi as the primary big boss. Seems a little light. Would have thought the “eye” would have been the primary enemy. Just looking for ways to to modify it for a group that want to play it and have no knowledge of the modules history.
I have the pod from drive thru rpg.. so yes, that's a thing that is sitting on my shelf waiting for me to review it. When that happens is hard to say. :)
@@captcorajus it is a complex one…3 books and tons of handouts. I have the POD also and liked it so much that I paid more that my wife would liked on EBay to have the original box set with all of the handouts, maps…would love to a review. Still working through the story line.
I'm new to d&d. I've bought the starter set, core rule books and Yawning portal Module compilation. I'm interested in eventually running this classic but im wondering how much of a headache this may be to tweak into 5e rules. ..
Did you watch the full video? Because I gave a pretty detailed overview on how to use the 5E module "Princes of the Apocalypse" to redo the module. I also have a link for a DIRECT conversion on the DMs guild, "Classic modules today" where all the heavy lifting has already been done for you.
Thanks for the quick response. I must have missed some of the video. Skimming through a bunch of stuff and surrounded by many distractions (kids). I'll check out your other videos too!
ROFLMAO! No, no, no.. not at all. In fact, I LOVE HER. (Well, she is made of fungus, so maybe just strongly like). I think as an intelligent Goddess, she wouldn't fall for a 'trick' to start an elemental cult because people will like it because its cooler than a fungus cult. I just feel her use here isn't really appropriate. I made up a 'Temple of Zuggtmoy'. The thing was built by Myconids deep under ground (of course). It was populated by a variety of fungus themed creatures, most of which would inflict a horrid fungal infection on those they hit. When they died, they would spew spores out in all directions. Those would set themselves on your skin, and in a few days time you'd begin to sprout. Ultimately, if left untreated, you'd die in a big old fungal pile, and explode, spreading even more spores about. So much fun!
@@captcorajus I am a big fan of myconids. In my campaign their spores are sought out and modified into a dangerous street drug which causes manic hallucinations. By befriending the myconids one could join their rapport and enter the astral plane through the shared dream ceremony. You are right though. I never understood why she was the boss rather than Imix or the other princes.
I primarily focus on OSR review, and related content, but I do have quite a bit of 5E content on my channel. However, its certainly a possibility in the future.
One of those cases in which "more" wasn't necessarily "better." A year to play? Been there, done that with the GDQ series. And, as written, this sounds like it verged in places on being a "Disneyland" dungeon, full of a menagerie of critters selected as punching bags for the players, with no strong rationale for their presence or any explanation for how they got on in relative isolation. ='[.]'=
I played Hommlet early and then bought this one recently. Hommlet I found a disappointment, not as good say as the similar Against the Cult of the Reptile God, which was a much better role play module. Our DM when he got Temple of Elemental Evil wouldnt take us through because he felt it was too much of a mish mash of randomly assorted monsters in a huge underground ziggurat which made no ecological sense. The Slavers series was the same thing for us a disappointment and generally opportunity for Total Party Kills though the Slave Lords was a little more internally consistent. Not a fan of the Queen of Fungus. It was the Giants Module that we loved and we got through those three modules ina few months, We never went as far as the Vault of the Drow. I have this "Super" Module. I can't imagine ever DMing it. I haven't given it a hard enough look to mine ideas from it. This is the highly regarded module from the 70's/80.s that I have been most disappointed by.
@@biffstrong1079 It can be easy to don rose colored glasses where the "Old School" modules are concerned, but as you note, many of those considered "classics" were actually kinda poorly done. Gygax is owed a great deal of credit for his part in adapting Dave Arneson's original dungeon adventure concept, but Arneson's seminal Blackmoor (which I have seen) would have been even more difficult to play, and some of Gygax's own work is only a step or two above that. Against the Giants was amazing, and the Descent Into the Depths nearly as good, though a longer grind, but Queen of the Demonweb Pits (whose history is detailed in another video, if memory serves, and wasn't quite as pure a Gygaxian creation as we have been led to believe) was an unnecessary and less satisfactory coda to the series. Gygax was not a DM I would've relished playing under; his attitude toward the players (based on his own writings, and evidenced in some of his modules) was pretty adversarial. However, those who have played under him have described rather a different process in his campaigns, in which characters were considered disposable from the start, with little consideration or RP or growth, but those who understood the table rules still had fun. ='[.]'=
@@Raycheetah Honestly Im a lover of old D&D modules because those are what I played and I' had a lot of enjoyable times playing them. Maybe if our DM had run us through Elemental Evil I'd love that one too for the memories I'd have had. I experience the same thing with old movies I love because I remember going to them with friends and how much fun the actual experience was. The same is true for the Old D&D modules. I still get a lot of mileage out of old modules and Im going to try to harvest something from this one. I am ready to run The Forgotten Temple of Tharzidun which is similar but more workable.
@@biffstrong1079 Tharizdun was cool. It had a different kind of flavor, less a monster-bashing amusement park, and more a delve into esoteric, eldritch darkness. Your players will be very lucky to experience that one! =^[.]^=
The CRPG of this adventure is pretty good - it isn't perfect, there are a host of bugs, like if you kill an enemy wizard while you're inside his globe of invulnerability, the effect remains on you and potions no longer work, etc. But I probably played through that game 4-5 times. The endgame was changed up to make it more video gamey, too. I ran Return to the TOEE, and I had a similar problem with huge blocks of test revealing an obscure important piece of information that I needed to help bring a map area together.
These "monster zoo" style dungeons didn't inspire me, so I didn't buy this at the time despite the much-anticipated title. I guess it's true to the 1970's style of early D&D dungeon crawl, and would interest people with nostalgia for that? It's interesting to learn what was in it, all these years later. ;D
Monster zoo. What a great term to describe this problem with many of the 1970s-80s AD&D modules. I also don't like the current WOTC method of writing campaign books that take an enormous amount of time to complete, and make it hard on DMs with a huge sandbox to navigate. I think the happy medium is something like what my group from 1984-86 came up with: home brew games that took 2-3 sessions to complete and have no more than 3 combat encounters, plus some role-playing negotiations and various problem solving tasks. No "hack, slash, grab the cash" even though we were evil -- we worked for an evil supernatural being and we had to do what The Overlord asked or face the consequences (it's actually harder to be evil than good), and no "monster zoo" (i.e., a lack of an ecology, kind of like what Bruce Galloway complained about in his book "Fantasy Wargaming").
@@BTsMusicChannel I also much prefer well statted adventures that don't require a lot of extra DM work. Red Hand of Doom was a fine example of excellent more recent adventure design with some moldability in mid-adventure of what actually happens.
@@BTsMusicChannel Well to be fair the game came from miniature wargaming where rolling the dice to fight was kinda the whole purpose. The whole idea of story telling was 2ndary to actually playing a game. The game was to kill monsters/take the treasure and these early modules were simply a set-up for you to do that.
@@swirvinbirds1971 you are correct on the first. point -- the game came from wargaming. But you are wring on the story being "secondary." The war gamers wanted to make the stories they loved (such as those found in Appendix N) come to life at their gaming table. Those old modules were also set up to be placed within a campaign. As far as I can remember since I started playing in 1981, the story was always important -- you talk about stuff that happened in your games for years. The combat was simply a part of the story, just as it is in fantasy literature.
@@BTsMusicChannel Here is a hint for you.... See how the old school modules had very little 'story'? Story was 2ndary. That's just the fact of the matter. They were a basic hook to get you adventuring. Dungeon crawls. I am NOT wrong. The dungeon adventures which were the game’s mainstay in the early ’70s had only two objectives: destroy all the monsters, and get all the treasure. The only way to get experience and level up was to defeat monsters and get their treasure. And no, it evolved from wargaming. They wanted to reenact battles from Lord of the rings and the like and created fantasy wargaming that eventually evolved into D&D.
Disclaimer: I love your videos, so please don't take this the wrong way. I have criticism: If you change the game too much, your players never actually played ToEE. It's like watching a movie that takes the name of a book but changes the entire plot. If your players understand that they aren't playing the actual ToEE game, then go forth and DM! I"ve ran this module in 1e, 2e twice, and 3e, but I never found the conversion challenging for some reason. I made very few adjustments to make it work. I have too much to mention in a comment, but if you DM the game correctly, this can be an extremely challenging and rewarding adventure. Run this game only if you have a group that wants to truly do an in-depth, old-school dungeon crawl.
Well, I appreciate the criticism, and certainly its quite valid. My own disclaimer was that I simply didn't like Zuggtmoy at the antagonist, nor the monster menagerie that was the TOEE, though, that's a conceit of my personal tastes... which is why I linked to Jon's Vlog who did a masterful video series on the temple and how to run it as written. I certainly couldn't do a better video on the topic, especially since I've never run it as written. That said, when I pick a topic for my retro reviews I really have no interest on just doing a straight up review. The things are 30-40 years old, and have been reviewed many times over, so unless I can add something of value, it doesn't interest me. TOEE was a good pick for me because I had done major modifications for my own campaign already and thought that it would be fun to share those on the channel. But you know, as long as everyone has a lot of fun, at the end of the day that's all that matters IMHO. Thanks for the comment! Good stuff!
Which is why I went for a more nuanced ratings system. I rated the module rather low in presentation. However, the module's core structure, and the ideas within are epic in scope, and certainly there's a bit of nostalgia attached to it as well. I believe that virtually no one ran the module as written, but the module is still universally loved by those that played in it. That means that people took the ideas within, and ran with it to make it their own. I think that's a good thing, which is why in the end the rating is what it is. But then again, maybe nostalgia tinted my feelings on it too! lol
@@captcorajus I can tell you that is exactly what Gary wanted. His intention was to give a general outline of how all the forces in play lined up. Then left it up to each DM to breath their own life into it. Make it fit into your world and make changes as you see fit. It is intended to inspire you as a DM. If s DM wants to play a completely scripted module from start to finish and never have to do anything other than read the story to his players then this module is not for you as a DM. And I have run this module several times over the years for different groups of players. What makes it fun for me is to see how different the result is when different groups go through it. Replay value is very high as I never get bored with it.
@@danhammond9066 I absolutely enjoy seeing how different players go through adventures. It can be a surprise sometimes which is a thrill for an experienced DM.
These ratings for the adventure seems excessively high for the critique that calls for them, when so much of the adventure fails to deliver proper coherence. Though I'm also a person who finds it an incredible overstatement to place the adventure (as written, without DM changes) as one of the greatest adventures ever. Regardless of that though, here is my take on your changes: Getting rid of Zuggtmoy entirely from the narrative doesn't seem necessary: The plot outlined by your editing is epic in scale and makes far more thematic sense, but is also almost identical to the narrative of "Princes of Apocalypse" with the addition of an extra contextualizing, threat at the end, explaining why the temple exists in the state that it does at all. However, with this narrative structure being like this, it finds itself being a somewhat predictable story that easily could lose Player-and/or-DM-Engagement over time. Zuggtmoy's presence in the adventure is an interesting surprise for Players to come upon, and I'd say that it is the real quality-factor of the adventure as it was written. Subverting expectations is a strong way to make an adventure memorable. I, however, don't think that Zuggtmoy's presence has been handled correctly by the adventure, nor by what came afterward. Making a Demonlord a puppet figure is an awful move, unless due to a different Demonlord. No, I'd personally keep Zuggtmoy in the adventure, and point people toward the note at the end of "Princes of the Apocalypse" noting that the Elemental Eye has other allies; which is a reference to the later adventure "Out of the Abyss," as Tharizdûn was the creator of that horrid place (as described in the "Demonomicon"). Zuggtmoy's presence in the adventure, I think, should be tied to Tharizdûn's connections to demons. Either by having her be an agent of the Elemental Eye, or perhaps even better, have her be in the temple due to trying to combat the presence of another aspect of Tharizdûn; Juiblex the Faceless Lord, the Demonlord of Oozes, and known to be Zuggtmoy's greatest enemy. The cult and temple of Elemental Evil could in truth be a "less horrid" front for a cult of Juiblex, at the bottom of the temple. A cult aware of Tharizdûn's ties to both Juiblex and the Elemental Eye. Zuggtmoy being sealed away would in this case simply be her having temporarily failed in her invasion of her enemy's stronghold, having been sealed away by the cult itself. This, in turn, could result in particularly wacky D&D-groups trying to perform the insane act of allying themselves with Zuggtmoy against the cult.
My rating is a bit more nuanced, primarily because the adventure is fundamentally so flexible, and the core ideas so epic that is absolutely allows for a near endless number of interpretations. My version is only one of many possibilities. I rated the module rather low in the presentation aspect. Getting rid of Zuggtmoy is a narrative choice based on the events in Village of Hommlet, that had the main protagonist, Lareth the Beautiful and his minions wearing armor emblazoned with the symbol of the Elder Elemental Eye. Using the fungus Goddess is most definitely a 'surprise', but for my purposes I preferred an all 'elemental theme'. Juiblex! Oooh, love that god. Sooo much fun. I once had a 'Temple of Juiblex populated with slimes and jellies, but various number of gelatinous cubes. The end boss was a 50 foot high/ wide cube. So much fun! I think the idea of allying with Zuggtmoy against the cult is brilliant, and to me this underscores why the Temple gets the rating it does. Its structure allows for multiple interpretations, which to me is a good thing. Great comment!
@@captcorajus - I definitively agree that the elements should be made the star in the adventure. If not, what would even have been the point of the adventure?
@@captcorajus - I definitively agree that having her be THE big bad is off. And as I said myself, the alternative being her having simply been tricked by humans is even more questionable. Temple of Elemental Evil is a messy thing. A wacky kind of messy. But definitively messy.
Seriously? Presentation is like a 7. Maybe. That POS takes GOBS of work to run and then we end up changing most of it because our players will start to think it's stupid...because it is. Rappan Athuk is 10x's easier to run and it's way more complex. ToEE was obviously done to get a much needed cash infusion due to the ineptness at the top of TSR at the time. Hats off to Frank Mentzer for sifting through a cocaine addicts crazy notes and at least coming up with something.
I found Rappan Athuk to be a complete slog. The number of entrances and where they corresponded to on the various maps was difficult to navigate. Presentation a 7? Ridiculous.
I don't get why people love this module. It's a random dungeon filled with monsters with no rhyme or reason; monsters who could never coexist. None of it makes any sense
@@captcorajus who is keeping them from fighting? Who built it and how and why did they bring all these monsters here? Etc. The dungeon is poorly designed and makes no sense. Obviously just my opinion 🙂
I gotta say this Module is an 8 for me. The version I got was expensive and I find it confusing and probably unplayable by any group I've ever been involved with. Fungus Queen?!??! Really ? I'm imaging the changes I'd have to make and I must admit it makes me tired.
A shame you're starting up your Patreon just as I'm dramatically cutting back my funding of Patreon projects due to their censorship and political bias (specifically re: Sargon of Akkad). If you ever get a bitcoin address or some other cryptocurrency let us know and I may throw you a few bucks.
Yes Gary Gygax play tested some of his material for this module on our group of players. I was there back in the day in Lake Geneva.
First met Gary playing WW2 naval miniatures at Parks college on the gym floor. Had no idea D&D was even a game until he invited a bunch of us to try it out. Then we got hooked. Have been playing it ever since.
Thanks for playing back then so keep Gary's dream alive so the rest of us would enjoy it. They're all coming back! Like a Necromancer revived all past players. I am back after about a 30 year break. Never thought I'd play again. A friend and co-worker got me interested and when one of my sons mentioned he'd like to play? Well I set about buying books, dice and miniatures right away. I have an airbrush and a full set of paint of tools. Painting on the side for the friend that got me into the game again, his Star Wars Legion minis.
I had many late nights with great friends at my Dad's house and at my Mom's. My parents were divorced you see. I played at one group and DM'd the other group. Friends that I have known all of their life were my group I DM'd for. Getting ready to work in Ohio again for a month. Two of those friends still live right down the road from my Dad. I'll have to take my stuff and run a one shot for them! I'd give anything to thank Mr Gygax for the fun and adventure.
@@saltykrug I also have returned to playing after a 30 year break. All that time ago I had spent 10 years creating a campaign and had everything on paper. One of my friends asked me last year if I would be interested in playing AD&D again as he knew I had a lot of DM experience and an entire campaign already created. The difference this time is we are playing on the virtual table top system of Roll20. I have spent a great deal of time converting my campaign to be playable on an online format. I purchased Dungeon Painter Studio on Steam and have put over 1,000 hours into making the maps to my adventures digital. I am so happy to be playing again so the time spent is worth it!
I hope Gary appreciated just how special the game was that he created (with help, but primarily him). You have a great story, I brag about how early I was in it, 1982, 7 and playing with older cousins.... you got me beat. Literally one of the first players ever. Respect.
So my question, characters from your group show up as NPCs in the module... are you in it?
@@voodoochild1975az Names have been changed to protect the innocent. But Yes. And that is all I am saying about that.
It has been 30 years..i have a red box set players guide signed by Gary..it is actually well worn i did not know who he was when i met him ..i was just tryin to play the game.he gave me a book to use n wrote his last name in it..i thought it was so he would get it back at the end..when he was leaving i tried to give it back he said keep it..i didnt know who he was until waaay later my older brother in law(married to my sister) told me who he was..i was only like 12 years old..i still have all my old books..im gonna dig em out n play again..
For those who are planning to work with the 1st edition AD&D version of the module and might want to include the elemental princes, statistics for them can be found on pages 31-33 of the Fiend Folio (also 1st edition, naturally).
Good catch. I knew there was something I forgot to add!! Nicely done! I was actually thinking of running the thing with Advanced Labyrinth Lord.
@@captcorajus a bit late, but how did you go with using ALL? Q) Any reason not to use OSRIC?
If you ask me, the Zuggtmoy angle makes a lot of sense. Because no one would follow her church of fungi, at least not in numbers to go against her hated rival Lolth, Zuggtmoy needed to trick people into worshipping her and thus giving her the power she needed. This is why no one knows it’s her running things, and explains why there isn’t much actual element stuff in the temple. It is also a nice twist; everyone expected it to be some elemental power, but instead it was something no one expected.
If she had not have been trapped ten years prior, Zuggtmoy would be well on her way to having the power to take on Lolth. Iuz would intervene to his own ends, of course, but only so much as to keep them fighting so neither of them would win the fight, this giving him what he wanted, a nice buffer to keep Lolth from getting too powerful.
I was the dm for this game for our group back in 1985. The game is best played with an evil party. They can interact with the monsters and learn all the subplots as is. The evil party must gain dominance over the monsters and learn how to use the golden skull as there personal tool. Once dominance is obtained they have an evil home base for other campaigns.
I love your intro music. It really sets the tone. Makes me nostalgic for those sleepy days of table top gaming. As always great review.
There's a half orc that had a small collection of exotic weapons in his room. 1 of those weapons was a double slotted light crossbow. I loved that weapon & used it with an Urdunnir fighter that i created back in 2e. He specialized in it & solely used it within point blank range to cause double damage on top of the damage of 2 bolts hitting. My favorite tactic was hiding in a stone or earthen wall & partially coming out to fire it, then retreating back into the earth/ stone to reload in safety. Then move to a different spot to do it again to baffle the opponents as to where he will emerge from
Leaving a "like" now to watch it later!
t1-t4 temple of elemental evil was a mess inside. but that cover 😲😲😲😲. amazing!
wow. a rating of 16 for a module that you totally rewrote. you're a much, much more generous judge than i am.
"Rewrite" is a major exaggeration. I changed the plot and altered the boss at the end, and pretty much kept everything else. That hardly qualifies as a rewrite. The encounters were pretty amazing IMHO and for the most part left 'as is' which comprises the bulk of what I presented to my players. :)
I really like your take on the temple of elemental evil, combining both the old-school and 5th edition modules and I'd love to see more videos combining the classics with their modern iterations, it's a great source of inspirations for new DMs such as myself.
We didn't have the temple module after doing hommlet so instead i sent the group to keep on the borderlands chasing routes servants of lareth, ending up changing cult of chaos into another outpost for the temple. I made 3 or 4 more adventures about temple outposts and plots so by the time we finally got the module for the Temple of Elemental evil....our expectations were kinda different than what it was.
In the end I ended up changing it's plot to be tied into the D drow modules (which we ended up playing next) ...since lareth had been a cleric of Lloth the plot got changed to where while Zugtmoy was still present (albeit made weaker) the whole operation was a scheme of lloth and the drow. All of the large monsters like the giants and trolls and ogre has been smuggled in from the lower levels where I added a passage to the under dark; they would serve as the first wave of troops to assail the surface before the drow themselves marched forth. The elemental cults I kept mostly as is but gave them a purpose; by regular sacrifices and gather "Elemental Power", they were going to cast an unthinkable high level spell that would unleash a curse for miles around the temple, a magic magical haze that diminished the light of the sun so that the drow wouldn't fear its light. Only the high priest were in on this real scheme, going along with it as they were promised to have high ranking positions in the new drow surface kingdom, generalship over all the ogre and trolls and soldiers they'd gathered.
Modding this is daunting too - just so much content. I like the Tharizdun replacement, makes a lot more sense.
It is daunting, which is why I suggesting taking license with the two follow up adventures, and mining/ stealing from them without shame. lol. Makes things so much easier!
Well, you know, I modded WG4 too, so I can easily tie it in. Hm.. If I can pull this off, your name is definitely going into the credits!
Thanks for doing TOEE ! I've loved this massive adventure since I bought new off the shelves back in the 80s. I've run it many times and I have never had a party actually finish it. Several have come close but ended in TPKs. Great fun for a DM... not as much for the players. Your suggestions are great and I'll incorporate them into my next attempt to run Temple in 5e. Keep up the good work!
Thank you for the kind words, it means a lot!
Jon's Vlog is pretty cool. I think I've watched most of his. I DM'd just a very little bit in the 80s but have been DM'ing mostly over the last couple of years or so. I try to incorporate as much old-school-ology into the game as I can but I still need to get some of those modules from the 80s that were so much fun.
Well-done. Thank-you for doing this.
You're very welcome!!
I'm a grognard, too - this brings me back to heady days when I traveled in Greyhawk!@@captcorajus
Those were good days!
Your re-write is epic. Well done.
Zuggtmoy can have her own dungeon. Something which has been at the back of the mind for years. By the way, I used to pronounce it "Zoogtmoy" (short "oo" as in book) whereas it's apparently "Zugget-moy" ("nugget"). Whatever floats in your moat.
I like the re-working of the Temple very much. Well done, Captcorajus!
According to every pronunciation guide I've ever read its suppose to sound like a fungal gooey mess of 'muck'... ie. "Zuggt-moy", but you know, who the hell knows. lol
@@captcorajus A lot of the lexicon is like that.
Yall better jump on this, the Captain has unleashed the Grand daddy. Thanks Cap!!
So in your version, the 4 cults work together?
I like the Troika version, where you can work with cults, against the other cults.
What a great module! I played this for hours and hours - fantastic. Although I think the Elemental Nodes were too tough.
I just started it playing, heard that sweet sweet R&B organ bass drums groove and it's time for another awesome review by the Captain! Old School Rocks!!!
Dungeos & Dragins online has the Temple of Elemental Evil, and Goodmen Game also has a retro of this 1st e and in 5e.
Thank you. Your adjustment was very interesting.
You're welcome!
Anyone who is a fan of Burzum should know that Det Som engang var albums cover is from The Temple of Elemental Evil.
hi capt-c...I watched this video twice now over the past couple weeks, and I know i have seen it before because I have watched your videos for a few years. I bought this book between viewings. Of course the main reason is because I wanted a good copy of Village of Hommlet, and I thought maybe I could get more value if I got this rather than the original Hommlet. Maybe I should be a little embarrassed, but I never really liked "mega-dungeons" as a player, and certainly not as a DM. Plus, I don't like pre-made plots, but sandboxes. So, I really liked your idea of using that map from the 4e dungeon, and it so happens I have all of those dungeons including the Shadowfell one (and that is plenty big for me)!! So I think using that map for what's behind that door to be enough!!!! Plus, now it don't need to have weird groups of monsters in there: bugbears, trolls, and other things that woudl probably kill each other in such close quarters. First, I would set up Hommlet (or some other town) as the homebase with a sandbox around it, and this crazy Temple would be maybe one adventure site that the characters could visit. Maybe that magic seal could keep them out until they do quests around the area and eventually find a special key or scroll that could open it. Then that could be the culmination of the sandbox. Meanwhile there would be rumors and occurrences that build up the hooks around it. Turns out there is a something in there causing all of it, and the characters job is to stop it to save their people in Hommlet. I think this would be a more appealing way for me to run a game than to make players slog through levels upon levels of "why is this monster here?" You gave me some good ideas that I could warp to suit my way of doing things. So, that makes the overall rating of this video..."Wowie!" PS...Maybe we just make that "something" just a bunch of pirates in the basement who have a smuggling operation going for an ultimate climax! Wicked plot twist...you were not in Hommlet, but Saltmarsh all along! Suckers!!!! WOOOOOOOOH!!!!
I bet your players have a blast!
I am glad you give us some ideas, please keep doing that! I never DMed or played Temple because my group had already moved away from straight AD&D toward our own system by 1984 (it borrowed mainly from AD&D, Palladium, and Simon's Necronomicon) and our taste for dungeon crawls was gone by then. If I were to do so, the main thing I would try to get away from is the huge "dungeon crawl" by putting the levels of the temple in separate locations so they could be more like a bunch of related "one-shot-like" mini-quests that lead to completing the big quest. Maybe add a quest giver -- like an scholarly NPC who is trying to prevent something evil from happening and might require the party to gain information (e.g., by finding him books, communicating with people or ghosts, etc.) the would lead them to the other places to root out evil things (i.e., the dungeon levels in the published module would not be accessed simply by walking down the stairs from the one above, but found in different locations on the world map). So there would be travel, exploration & research required, rather than just go in to one convenient location with all the levels laid out and no real monster ecology. I am not convinced by the flow of going down another level and there you are in the cult lair, another level you get something else, etc. That just sounds like too rough of a neighborhood for any of the monsters to survive. Thanks captain!!! :D
Oh, yeah, we played Palladium, Role Master, and even Fantasy Hero for awhile. I remember those days!
Princes of the Apocalypse has no less then 8 large dungeon areas, at different locations, though they are all interconnected through a massive underground cave network.
@@captcorajus One more source you should check out if you don't know it -- Bruce Galloway "Fantasy Wargaming" from 1981). He gives a great critique of magic and monster deployment in AD&D in that book, and I have borrowed some of his ideas since my friend gave me the book for Christmas in 1983. This book and the group of friends I played with in late 1984-1986 make it hard for me to play at tables where the game quality is not what I am looking for. But when you do find a good group, it is so much more interesting.
@@BTsMusicChannel I'm very aware. I have the book sitting on my shelf. lol. The treatise on fantasy game systems is interesting. The game system in the back is pretty much unplayable, but the articles beforehand are pretty good.
@@captcorajus Agreed, it is not a system to actually use as a stand-alone. I really like your channel and also Seth Skorkowski's. I will definitely visit Jon's at some point. Thanks.
Ahh the memories and strong feelings of nostalgia of 1990/1 come flooding back with this campaign. It took our group almost 2 years to complete this campaign, with regular weekly sessions. It is a monster of a campaign, a massive dungeon crawl that if played carefully, will give your group many many sessions of pure awesome D&D delight.
I recall losing my character on the first level when we made the tragic mistake of splitting the party. My character failed his morale check [can't recall why?] and ran from the melee the party was in, sprinting off down a hallway only to run into some Leucrotta which proceeded to turn him into a dog chew toy :( Still, my next character had far better stats [got lucky with the rolls during creation] and was just that bit more effective despite being at least 2 levels behind everyone else.
I really like your concept of repurposing the module and it makes more sense. Once you do this then 4 dungeon levels, while being great fun, if somewhat a bit grindy, make not much sense thematically and so changing it up gives the dungeon a more authentic feel
Thanks again :).
Wow, 2 years!! I agree, it is a lot of fun, and quite deadly.
You're welcome! Thanks for the views and the comments!
@@captcorajus It took 2 years because we played RAW and took our time with the dungeons. Despite our DM's previous brain fart [as I outlined in the T1 video comment] he made up for it being consistent and he was always adapting the dungeon denizens responses to each of our forays into the dungeon. This meant we had to be super cautious and retreat constantly once spells etc were exhausted.
@@Talwyn22 That's good DMing right there, especially with a module of this complexity. Certainly, the thing is a beast, with a lot of moving pieces.
Which is why I felt the need to get away from the monster menagerie when I ran it.
My current group of players is going on 2 1/2 years and they are not even 1/2 way through it yet. They absolutely love it.
PCs should never be subject to morale checks. ever. i believe the ad&d dungeon masters guide specifically says so (though i can't cite a page reference). i'd be pretty angry with the DM that essentially killed me with a check that i shouldn't even be making. a fear effect that results in EXACTLY the same result? that's fine.
For the PC experience, you must look up Temple+. I've been through the TOEE many times and its just as fun every time as it was the last.
hope to run this for my home group (relatively) soon. Insights are always welcome.
Get Midderlands and Midderlands Expanded to drop the Village of Hommlet into. It worked out very nice for my group.
This Module drops very nicely into the Midderlands Setting. The Green Gloom is a very nice addition to the dungeon.
I do like the idea of Elemental power levels that make sense. I have incorporated similar ideas in other adventures.
I have run and played TOEE many times, and each time never completed it. The last time I played, our DM literally had us choking in the Elemental Nodes for months. As soon as we had a chance to leave, we left, never bothering with the last fight because we were sick of the adventure. We did alter the course of the river to flood the lower levels via the secret tunnel in the watchtower.
Props for having a spoiler alert on a 35+ year old module!👻😁
The module is 35 years old, but there are new people coming into the hobby interested in D&D history all the time. Never a mistake to be courteous.
TOEE one of my personal favorites. Along with the Slavers, and Giants/Descent/Vault/Queen arcs. The older TOEE single player video game is really good also. DDO translated it into the MMO format. Did a pretty decent job with it also. Despite the inevitable mmo grinding in it.
DDO translated it? Oh wow! I didn't know that! Cool.
No one does what you do. You have found a great niche!
Good review. I like your modifications. Good job making them clear for us.
Best channel on TH-cam
One of the best for sure!
We needed 3 months (playing 1-2 times a week, studenttime was grerat) and I modified it too. The Orb of Golden Death (and it s different owners) was a recurrent part of our 10+ years campaign - a great module!
Re Zuggtmoy as villain, misdirection in the module title was a thing back then, y'know. Expedition to the Barrier Peaks requires very little skill at mountaineering, for example. Half our party had brought skis and winter survival gear when I went through it the first time, and we would have brought sled dogs if we'd been able to find someone to sell us any. Pity we didn't in hindsight - they would have been great for distracting that bloody froghemoth.
It's sad that Jon's D&D Vlog is gone. I really wanted to watch his video on the ToEE. 😞
Yeah, Jon did a phenomenal break down, he color coded the various sections by factions in the temple to make things easier for the DM to run. It was really good.
What? A fungus cult wouldn't be as popular?
But I have heard that in at least one alternate universe, the entire galaxy has a 'mycelial network' running through it, that allows instantaneous transport from one place to another through..... well, magic I suppose, so maybe Zuggotmoy just moved there when her plan here failed? ^_^
Lol, could be!
We dont talk about Star Drek Disgracery for a reason...
Two thumbs way up!
A friend of mine had this and gave to me to run. I was 13 at the time. Couldn't quite understand what was going on! Would have loved a synopsis! 😅 Would love to run it now, but that's quite a commitment
Later inspired the most underrated dungeons and dragons CRPG. More people played the dark Sun games.
I don't see myself running this in the future
i'm going to follow this and do up a rewrite as well. any chance you have any notes?!
I'm sorry, I don't. Its been quite some time since I ran this, and the notes I had were on my old computer. 😔
@@captcorajus i'll endeavour to add mine to the cloud aha
Hi Captain! Huge fan! Thank you for all the awesome videos. This module has given me headaches for years, so I really loved your take on modifying it. I have never read the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun, but I was wondering if I ran Temple of Elemental Evil with your modifications, would I still be able to connect it to the Tharizdun module?
I think so easily.
Read through the module, much needed adjustments. The original monsters don’t make sense to the theme, especially the mold goddess. Great review.
Wow! Bravo! Great stuff!
Your rework by combining the two sources is masterful.
This was Great! I'd been wanting to run TOEE for years. Started playing in '79 but missed out on this one BITD. I bought the Goodman Games conversion to 5e and thought I'd run our group through it. Enter Shadowdark and my long burning fuse on OSR finally exploded. Now ironically I'm using the Goodman Games books not for the 5e conversion, but for the way they've cleaned up, organized and expanded the content. I read the 5e text for the improved organization and we play using essentially the 1e stat blocks. As you commented, there are decades of reflection on this module out there on the interwebs and I've been watching and reading tons of it. After weeks of consuming this content I can say that, Very Broadly there seems to be consensus that 1) ToEE is great but 2) it really takes work to make it sing. And while there are ideas out there for how to do that, none that I've come across come as close to what you've described here to my own thoughts on the matter. The modifications you describe are remarkably close to what I've been groping my way toward--but you've already thought it all the way through! I'm not going to mod completely the way you have but there were plenty of great ideas that I'm going to steal. It is really strange how little elemental evil there is in the original. I've been thinking about all the ways to play that up. And the plot as presented seems overly convoluted. The power behind the ToEE is actually a god of fungus? competing with Lolth how exactly? with help from Iuz? And the actual Elemental Evil is completely missing?? I see in the comments that some folks like this as a twist but me, not so much. Most of the cool bits will only really make sense (if you can call it "sense") to the DM. I just don't see players really "getting it" without massive monologuing from villains. Repeatedly. And then only maybe. Your mods draw forth the promise of the premise laid out in Hommlet. I have a strong preference for things to make clear sense. There is a whiff of blasphemy to say that Gygaxian style across all of his modules is eclectic to the point of absurdity, but YMMV. For me, his stuff needs reworking. In the real estate biz looking at an older house that's a solid value but needs work you might say that it has "good bones". ToEE has good bones. Gary's massive creativity gave us a hobby that can take you from childhood into old age. He always strongly encouraged making things your own. That's one of the things I love the most about old school DnD. My group is going to have an epic time with ToEE for the next 18 months. Thanks for the ideas!
Hey Cap, what about the Lendore Island modules from Len Lakofka? One of the few module designers who knew how to place an adventure "plot" into a sandbox and make it work.
Oooh, those are good! Yeah, man, I've got those on my module shelf and on the 'to do' list. Might have to bump up the cue on those!
aww yiss. weekend secured!
I love the video game. We have done this module several times and have left a trail of dead PC's in the ruins each time. I would like to see the actual Gygax version. This is the only published module I am aware of that has things a dwarf's skills work on, like the sloping underground passage. More recently I have had a bit of apprehension when it concerns Frank Mentzer. Several well established original TSR employees have expressed doubts about his ethics and ability.
Do you have a video covering Against the Slave Lords?
Yes. I covered the entire A series.
@@captcorajus ok, I will look for it. These reviews are excellent and a great buyers guide for building up my 2e collection. Have all of the source books but not the modules. Keep up the good work!!!
Hey Capt! Have you seen the Goodman Games ToEE for 5e? And if so, do you think it's worth it to get that one, even if you already own the old AD&D version?
Yeah, I was interested in getting it, but the $99.99 price tag is a barrier for me at the moment.
@@captcorajus That is also the barrier I have trouble dealing with, haha.
Subbed. Quality content wow
Have you considered covering the Battle System, infantry combat system?
I never really used the Battle System in my games, and its kinda outside the scope of my channel. I tend to stick to either game module, mostly old, but some new, especially if they trace back to an older, classic module. For example, I did a review of "Into the Borderlands" from Goodman Games.
I also tend to stick to subject matter I'm rather familiar with, and I'm not really knowledgeable on that particular system.
I wonder how Goodman Games version, coming out in September 2021, will differ from the original version. Also their version will be in 2 books in their OAR game.
Ok, Jon's Vlog is no more... anyone have a link to a good playthrough that can stand in for the missing Vlog?
I’m impressed with the way you’ve drawn from all sorts of additions and adventures to build on this!
I’m also sorry to report that John’s Vlog no longer seems functioning-is there another resource you would suggest for a similar walkthrough?
Did TSR make a Greyhawk campaign setting?
yes, i did a video on it. :)
You forgot to mention the NPC’s that the party can meet in the dungeon, Darley, Taki, etc. Also, the legendary sword Fragarach can be found as loot.
I didn't 'forget' anything my friend. I covered exactly what I felt were the salient points that I wanted to cover. :)
@@captcorajus I liked your ideas for reworking the adventure. They definitely had more of an Elemental Evil feel to them.
Greyhawk got a mention!!! take a drink
Libations were given.
As far as I can see, Jon's Vlog is out. Can't access his videos. It looks like He deleted all of them. That's sad.
Yeah, not sure what happened there. It was a great channel.
@@captcorajus I'm from Brazil and just bought the OSR version. I really like your idea of changing it and I was thinking about linking Against the slave lords and Queen of the Spiders. It would be a freaking awesome campaign! Thank you for your great content! Keep rocking!
Great video! I really like how you modified the adventure using RttToEE and PotA to give it a more consistent feeling. Say, you wouldn't have your conversion notes in a handy document, would you? 😉
I'd like to see your notes on your temple of elemental evil campaign. It sounds like a better themed module.
Thanks for the amazing content
And now this has been fairly recently announced for Goodman Games's next module to get the reincarnated treatment. owo
Yep, definitely picking that up!
Did you ever do a review of Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil?
No, I haven't I was very much disenchanted with that module, and found it a slog to get through. We started that adventure and then abandoned it about half way through.
@@captcorajus I am reading through it. Considering using portions of it and princes of the Apocalypse similar to what you described to add to the Temple of Elemental Evil. Do you happen to have an outline of how you modified your version of ToEE. Not a fan of the lord of Fungi as the primary big boss. Seems a little light. Would have thought the “eye” would have been the primary enemy. Just looking for ways to to modify it for a group that want to play it and have no knowledge of the modules history.
God I love these retro reviews ☺ 🇮🇪
Yea it took us a whole year to get through the adventure
You and John are my 2 favorite old-school rpg channels.
Didn't John stop and sell all his stuff now?
I know Jon stopped for awhile due to some copy right mess, but apparently that got resolved and he's posting again. His latest video is 3 weeks old.
@@captcorajus That's great news! Thanks Capt! Awesome stuff as always!
How about a review of the super module Night Below…..another classic
I have the pod from drive thru rpg.. so yes, that's a thing that is sitting on my shelf waiting for me to review it. When that happens is hard to say. :)
@@captcorajus it is a complex one…3 books and tons of handouts. I have the POD also and liked it so much that I paid more that my wife would liked on EBay to have the original box set with all of the handouts, maps…would love to a review. Still working through the story line.
I'm new to d&d. I've bought the starter set, core rule books and Yawning portal Module compilation. I'm interested in eventually running this classic but im wondering how much of a headache this may be to tweak into 5e rules. ..
Did you watch the full video? Because I gave a pretty detailed overview on how to use the 5E module "Princes of the Apocalypse" to redo the module. I also have a link for a DIRECT conversion on the DMs guild, "Classic modules today" where all the heavy lifting has already been done for you.
Thanks for the quick response. I must have missed some of the video. Skimming through a bunch of stuff and surrounded by many distractions (kids). I'll check out your other videos too!
Jon's TH-cam channel contains no videos, sadly. www.youtube.com/@JonsDDVlog
Yeah, unfortunately about a year after I made this video Jon took down his youtube channel.
You been hatin on Zuggtmoy! I think you in leagues with Lolth!
ROFLMAO! No, no, no.. not at all. In fact, I LOVE HER. (Well, she is made of fungus, so maybe just strongly like).
I think as an intelligent Goddess, she wouldn't fall for a 'trick' to start an elemental cult because people will like it because its cooler than a fungus cult. I just feel her use here isn't really appropriate.
I made up a 'Temple of Zuggtmoy'. The thing was built by Myconids deep under ground (of course). It was populated by a variety of fungus themed creatures, most of which would inflict a horrid fungal infection on those they hit. When they died, they would spew spores out in all directions. Those would set themselves on your skin, and in a few days time you'd begin to sprout. Ultimately, if left untreated, you'd die in a big old fungal pile, and explode, spreading even more spores about.
So much fun!
@@captcorajus I am a big fan of myconids. In my campaign their spores are sought out and modified into a dangerous street drug which causes manic hallucinations. By befriending the myconids one could join their rapport and enter the astral plane through the shared dream ceremony. You are right though. I never understood why she was the boss rather than Imix or the other princes.
@@nathankelley1466 See? That's what I'm talking about right there. Very cool!
Did not know about Keith Parkinson...
Me neither, I found out when I was doing the research for the video. So sad.
could you do videos like these on 5e books?
I primarily focus on OSR review, and related content, but I do have quite a bit of 5E content on my channel. However, its certainly a possibility in the future.
Love the idea for a modified version. Do you by chance happen to sell copies of such anywhere?
Jon’s vlog is down 😢
I love toee it's my favorite to run followed by castle ravenloft
In 2080, 80s modules wil become aincient.
Could you do a review of Escape from the Meenlock Prison? That was a favorite creepy adventure for me.
One of those cases in which "more" wasn't necessarily "better." A year to play? Been there, done that with the GDQ series. And, as written, this sounds like it verged in places on being a "Disneyland" dungeon, full of a menagerie of critters selected as punching bags for the players, with no strong rationale for their presence or any explanation for how they got on in relative isolation. ='[.]'=
I played Hommlet early and then bought this one recently. Hommlet I found a disappointment, not as good say as the similar Against the Cult of the Reptile God, which was a much better role play module. Our DM when he got Temple of Elemental Evil wouldnt take us through because he felt it was too much of a mish mash of randomly assorted monsters in a huge underground ziggurat which made no ecological sense. The Slavers series was the same thing for us a disappointment and generally opportunity for Total Party Kills though the Slave Lords was a little more internally consistent. Not a fan of the Queen of Fungus.
It was the Giants Module that we loved and we got through those three modules ina few months, We never went as far as the Vault of the Drow.
I have this "Super" Module. I can't imagine ever DMing it. I haven't given it a hard enough look to mine ideas from it.
This is the highly regarded module from the 70's/80.s that I have been most disappointed by.
@@biffstrong1079 It can be easy to don rose colored glasses where the "Old School" modules are concerned, but as you note, many of those considered "classics" were actually kinda poorly done. Gygax is owed a great deal of credit for his part in adapting Dave Arneson's original dungeon adventure concept, but Arneson's seminal Blackmoor (which I have seen) would have been even more difficult to play, and some of Gygax's own work is only a step or two above that. Against the Giants was amazing, and the Descent Into the Depths nearly as good, though a longer grind, but Queen of the Demonweb Pits (whose history is detailed in another video, if memory serves, and wasn't quite as pure a Gygaxian creation as we have been led to believe) was an unnecessary and less satisfactory coda to the series. Gygax was not a DM I would've relished playing under; his attitude toward the players (based on his own writings, and evidenced in some of his modules) was pretty adversarial. However, those who have played under him have described rather a different process in his campaigns, in which characters were considered disposable from the start, with little consideration or RP or growth, but those who understood the table rules still had fun. ='[.]'=
@@Raycheetah Honestly Im a lover of old D&D modules because those are what I played and I' had a lot of enjoyable times playing them. Maybe if our DM had run us through Elemental Evil I'd love that one too for the memories I'd have had. I experience the same thing with old movies I love because I remember going to them with friends and how much fun the actual experience was. The same is true for the Old D&D modules. I still get a lot of mileage out of old modules and Im going to try to harvest something from this one. I am ready to run The Forgotten Temple of Tharzidun which is similar but more workable.
@@biffstrong1079 Tharizdun was cool. It had a different kind of flavor, less a monster-bashing amusement park, and more a delve into esoteric, eldritch darkness. Your players will be very lucky to experience that one! =^[.]^=
The CRPG of this adventure is pretty good - it isn't perfect, there are a host of bugs, like if you kill an enemy wizard while you're inside his globe of invulnerability, the effect remains on you and potions no longer work, etc. But I probably played through that game 4-5 times. The endgame was changed up to make it more video gamey, too. I ran Return to the TOEE, and I had a similar problem with huge blocks of test revealing an obscure important piece of information that I needed to help bring a map area together.
These "monster zoo" style dungeons didn't inspire me, so I didn't buy this at the time despite the much-anticipated title. I guess it's true to the 1970's style of early D&D dungeon crawl, and would interest people with nostalgia for that? It's interesting to learn what was in it, all these years later. ;D
Monster zoo. What a great term to describe this problem with many of the 1970s-80s AD&D modules. I also don't like the current WOTC method of writing campaign books that take an enormous amount of time to complete, and make it hard on DMs with a huge sandbox to navigate. I think the happy medium is something like what my group from 1984-86 came up with: home brew games that took 2-3 sessions to complete and have no more than 3 combat encounters, plus some role-playing negotiations and various problem solving tasks. No "hack, slash, grab the cash" even though we were evil -- we worked for an evil supernatural being and we had to do what The Overlord asked or face the consequences (it's actually harder to be evil than good), and no "monster zoo" (i.e., a lack of an ecology, kind of like what Bruce Galloway complained about in his book "Fantasy Wargaming").
@@BTsMusicChannel I also much prefer well statted adventures that don't require a lot of extra DM work. Red Hand of Doom was a fine example of excellent more recent adventure design with some moldability in mid-adventure of what actually happens.
@@BTsMusicChannel Well to be fair the game came from miniature wargaming where rolling the dice to fight was kinda the whole purpose.
The whole idea of story telling was 2ndary to actually playing a game.
The game was to kill monsters/take the treasure and these early modules were simply a set-up for you to do that.
@@swirvinbirds1971 you are correct on the first. point -- the game came from wargaming. But you are wring on the story being "secondary." The war gamers wanted to make the stories they loved (such as those found in Appendix N) come to life at their gaming table. Those old modules were also set up to be placed within a campaign. As far as I can remember since I started playing in 1981, the story was always important -- you talk about stuff that happened in your games for years. The combat was simply a part of the story, just as it is in fantasy literature.
@@BTsMusicChannel Here is a hint for you.... See how the old school modules had very little 'story'? Story was 2ndary. That's just the fact of the matter. They were a basic hook to get you adventuring. Dungeon crawls. I am NOT wrong.
The dungeon adventures which were the game’s mainstay in the early ’70s had only two objectives: destroy all the monsters, and get all the treasure. The only way to get experience and level up was to defeat monsters and get their treasure.
And no, it evolved from wargaming. They wanted to reenact battles from Lord of the rings and the like and created fantasy wargaming that eventually evolved into D&D.
jon's vlog doesnt have any videos anymore -_-
You might want to replace "Presentation" with "Structure".
Disclaimer: I love your videos, so please don't take this the wrong way. I have criticism:
If you change the game too much, your players never actually played ToEE. It's like watching a movie that takes the name of a book but changes the entire plot. If your players understand that they aren't playing the actual ToEE game, then go forth and DM! I"ve ran this module in 1e, 2e twice, and 3e, but I never found the conversion challenging for some reason. I made very few adjustments to make it work. I have too much to mention in a comment, but if you DM the game correctly, this can be an extremely challenging and rewarding adventure. Run this game only if you have a group that wants to truly do an in-depth, old-school dungeon crawl.
Well, I appreciate the criticism, and certainly its quite valid.
My own disclaimer was that I simply didn't like Zuggtmoy at the antagonist, nor the monster menagerie that was the TOEE, though, that's a conceit of my personal tastes... which is why I linked to Jon's Vlog who did a masterful video series on the temple and how to run it as written. I certainly couldn't do a better video on the topic, especially since I've never run it as written.
That said, when I pick a topic for my retro reviews I really have no interest on just doing a straight up review. The things are 30-40 years old, and have been reviewed many times over, so unless I can add something of value, it doesn't interest me. TOEE was a good pick for me because I had done major modifications for my own campaign already and thought that it would be fun to share those on the channel.
But you know, as long as everyone has a lot of fun, at the end of the day that's all that matters IMHO. Thanks for the comment! Good stuff!
seeing as how you pretty much rewrote the module to make it playable, I think your rating is much too high.
Which is why I went for a more nuanced ratings system. I rated the module rather low in presentation. However, the module's core structure, and the ideas within are epic in scope, and certainly there's a bit of nostalgia attached to it as well.
I believe that virtually no one ran the module as written, but the module is still universally loved by those that played in it. That means that people took the ideas within, and ran with it to make it their own. I think that's a good thing, which is why in the end the rating is what it is.
But then again, maybe nostalgia tinted my feelings on it too! lol
@@captcorajus I can tell you that is exactly what Gary wanted. His intention was to give a general outline of how all the forces in play lined up. Then left it up to each DM to breath their own life into it. Make it fit into your world and make changes as you see fit. It is intended to inspire you as a DM. If s DM wants to play a completely scripted module from start to finish and never have to do anything other than read the story to his players then this module is not for you as a DM. And I have run this module several times over the years for different groups of players. What makes it fun for me is to see how different the result is when different groups go through it. Replay value is very high as I never get bored with it.
@@danhammond9066 I absolutely enjoy seeing how different players go through adventures. It can be a surprise sometimes which is a thrill for an experienced DM.
There is no Beholder on level 3
lol
Leave a like if you were TPK'd by Imix, like my party was :sadface:
These ratings for the adventure seems excessively high for the critique that calls for them, when so much of the adventure fails to deliver proper coherence. Though I'm also a person who finds it an incredible overstatement to place the adventure (as written, without DM changes) as one of the greatest adventures ever.
Regardless of that though, here is my take on your changes:
Getting rid of Zuggtmoy entirely from the narrative doesn't seem necessary:
The plot outlined by your editing is epic in scale and makes far more thematic sense, but is also almost identical to the narrative of "Princes of Apocalypse" with the addition of an extra contextualizing, threat at the end, explaining why the temple exists in the state that it does at all.
However, with this narrative structure being like this, it finds itself being a somewhat predictable story that easily could lose Player-and/or-DM-Engagement over time. Zuggtmoy's presence in the adventure is an interesting surprise for Players to come upon, and I'd say that it is the real quality-factor of the adventure as it was written. Subverting expectations is a strong way to make an adventure memorable.
I, however, don't think that Zuggtmoy's presence has been handled correctly by the adventure, nor by what came afterward. Making a Demonlord a puppet figure is an awful move, unless due to a different Demonlord.
No, I'd personally keep Zuggtmoy in the adventure, and point people toward the note at the end of "Princes of the Apocalypse" noting that the Elemental Eye has other allies; which is a reference to the later adventure "Out of the Abyss," as Tharizdûn was the creator of that horrid place (as described in the "Demonomicon").
Zuggtmoy's presence in the adventure, I think, should be tied to Tharizdûn's connections to demons.
Either by having her be an agent of the Elemental Eye, or perhaps even better, have her be in the temple due to trying to combat the presence of another aspect of Tharizdûn; Juiblex the Faceless Lord, the Demonlord of Oozes, and known to be Zuggtmoy's greatest enemy.
The cult and temple of Elemental Evil could in truth be a "less horrid" front for a cult of Juiblex, at the bottom of the temple. A cult aware of Tharizdûn's ties to both Juiblex and the Elemental Eye.
Zuggtmoy being sealed away would in this case simply be her having temporarily failed in her invasion of her enemy's stronghold, having been sealed away by the cult itself. This, in turn, could result in particularly wacky D&D-groups trying to perform the insane act of allying themselves with Zuggtmoy against the cult.
My rating is a bit more nuanced, primarily because the adventure is fundamentally so flexible, and the core ideas so epic that is absolutely allows for a near endless number of interpretations. My version is only one of many possibilities. I rated the module rather low in the presentation aspect.
Getting rid of Zuggtmoy is a narrative choice based on the events in Village of Hommlet, that had the main protagonist, Lareth the Beautiful and his minions wearing armor emblazoned with the symbol of the Elder Elemental Eye.
Using the fungus Goddess is most definitely a 'surprise', but for my purposes I preferred an all 'elemental theme'.
Juiblex! Oooh, love that god. Sooo much fun. I once had a 'Temple of Juiblex populated with slimes and jellies, but various number of gelatinous cubes. The end boss was a 50 foot high/ wide cube. So much fun!
I think the idea of allying with Zuggtmoy against the cult is brilliant, and to me this underscores why the Temple gets the rating it does. Its structure allows for multiple interpretations, which to me is a good thing.
Great comment!
@@captcorajus - I definitively agree that the elements should be made the star in the adventure. If not, what would even have been the point of the adventure?
I just feel the inclusion of Zuggtmoy is like, "Hey, its the 'Temple of Elemental evil'... run by a fungus Goddess... psyche!" lol
@@captcorajus - I definitively agree that having her be THE big bad is off.
And as I said myself, the alternative being her having simply been tricked by humans is even more questionable.
Temple of Elemental Evil is a messy thing. A wacky kind of messy. But definitively messy.
@@madhatterhimself181 I sort of feel its messiness is part of its charm. lol.
Seriously? Presentation is like a 7. Maybe. That POS takes GOBS of work to run and then we end up changing most of it because our players will start to think it's stupid...because it is. Rappan Athuk is 10x's easier to run and it's way more complex. ToEE was obviously done to get a much needed cash infusion due to the ineptness at the top of TSR at the time. Hats off to Frank Mentzer for sifting through a cocaine addicts crazy notes and at least coming up with something.
I found Rappan Athuk to be a complete slog. The number of entrances and where they corresponded to on the various maps was difficult to navigate. Presentation a 7? Ridiculous.
Jon's vlog is gone
New cap!
I don't get why people love this module. It's a random dungeon filled with monsters with no rhyme or reason; monsters who could never coexist. None of it makes any sense
Sure they can coexist. They are evil united under the banner of Elemental Evil. Of course if that's destroyed then the cooperation will fall apart.
@@captcorajus who is keeping them from fighting? Who built it and how and why did they bring all these monsters here? Etc. The dungeon is poorly designed and makes no sense. Obviously just my opinion 🙂
I gotta say this Module is an 8 for me. The version I got was expensive and I find it confusing and probably unplayable by any group I've ever been involved with. Fungus Queen?!??! Really ?
I'm imaging the changes I'd have to make and I must admit it makes me tired.
A shame you're starting up your Patreon just as I'm dramatically cutting back my funding of Patreon projects due to their censorship and political bias (specifically re: Sargon of Akkad).
If you ever get a bitcoin address or some other cryptocurrency let us know and I may throw you a few bucks.
I've got prizes!