Always preferred Optimus prime being just a regular bot who through his bravery wields the matrix of leadership. Gives him more humility and makes him more inspirational.
@@DeltaTrionconcur’d. Otherwise it just becomes all divine right and stuff, transformers are seemingly fated to be ruled by a Prime or whatev, and it’s hard not to wonder “was IDW Megatron… too right?” When you think about that.
Same! So many franchises stink it up by making their characters some one destined for greatness for being related or born into it instead of them working towards it!
The only way that Optimus "being" the thirteenth Prime could work without damaging the character or the story would be if instead of 13, there were only 12 original Primes, and every "Prime" that came after were false Primes, so to speak. Bots that would rise to the position as military, political, and sometimes spiritual leaders, be it by popular vote, or by being chosen by the powers that be to bear the title. But that lacked the Matrix' blessings and the power that came with it. Optimus, on the other hand, would be the first Prime since the originals to bear the Matrix, thus making him the first legitimate Prime since the first 12, and as such, the thirteenth Prime.
At least in TF One, Orion Pax is not the reincarnation of the Thirteenth Prime as it would have just been him reclaiming his divine birthright than being chosen as worthy for choosing to step up and be a leader of the Autobots.
Agreed I think it's better tho it does leave some unanswered questions. For example in TFone Zeta prime is the one with the axe we see it it's the same colour and everything. The only difference is zeta can wield it like a normal axe it doesn't have to be from his hand. So normally the axe isn't an incarnation thing. But it can't be just an coincidence like is the axe just a matrix thing now? Like you gain the knowledge of the ancients, the memories of the previous users and a pretty sweet axe lol. Like is it just a previous users thing like its just Zeta's memory and experience and weapon. Or is it all the primes because all of them were shown in the death vision in the afterlife. Like how cool would it be if he has access to all their weapons. I know it won't happen but it's a cool idea for future continuity's.
I personally love both versions of Optimus. Both him being a reincarnated 13th prime, and also having no connections. I personally feel being the reincarnation of the 13th prime doesn’t fully ruin his arc as Orion Pax, as I feel Orion could still go down the wrong path. He earned the matrix through his actions, not because he used to be the 13th. Plus I do think it’s poetic that the 13th prime wanted to experience struggle and what a normal citizen goes through, so he gave up his prime status and memories.
I like the idea of Optimus being so good, noble, humble, all his defining trates. To the point that people (other cybertronians) would conclude that well, hes so good hes got to have been one of the original 13. Idk if i explain my thought process well, but its a feeling of greatness, which i think is absolutely perfect. As in our real world. So many people (or at least me without a doubt in my mind) can look at the character of Optimus as a role model. Someone so perfect it seems impossible. How can someone be so compassionate or so strong. It seems impossible to be this perfect character, but he inspires us to try and be. "Be strong enough to be gentle" so a powerful phrase, which i have taken to heart. As cheesy as it sounds, i would not be who i am today if it werent for this character
This is a wonderful way of saying this. While Aligned did confirm it, it's a much better idea in IDW where it is never confirmed, but suggested so strongly. Like you said, he is so noble and humble people would believe that he IS the 13th without it being confirmed.
I always thought it was a good idea for Optimus to be the thirteenth Prime. But after TF One I started to think that it has a better message if he is not. I honestly think Transformers One handled TF's lore in an amazing way.
Optimus being a reincarnation of somebody basically ruins what made Optimus Special to begin with. He’s special because he could be anybody. He could’ve been a blue collar worker, a former all start athlete, a librarian, a b-cop, a miner. The list goes on and to me that’s the point. Why give Optimus Prime an origin when you have others trying to aspire to be more. Optimus Prime represents that no matter who or what people are. It’s why I looked up to him as a kid as I didn’t care about his past, I cared about who he was now and how he inspired his Autobot’s and other kids, teens, and adults around.
100% agreed at 6:20 I always did love the idea that anyone can become a prime depending on the bot's courage kinda like with the 86 movie with Hot Rod. Great video dude!
I can't say I'm crazy over the idea of Optimus being a reincarnated prime, though maybe a good story that utilizes this premise might change my mind. That being said, the possibility of another prime that is even more mysterious than the others is definitely a fun idea that can be used for stories. Like, maybe the Arisen was the first person to be promoted to prime rather than being made as one, hence the title of "Arisen", and their name was stricken from history out of symbolism, that anyone can be a prime. Or they're an antagonist like Megatronus or Maximo, an acient corrupted being that's been forgotten by Cybertron and is an apocalyptic threat, serving as a way to introduce a character like Nova or Logos into the fold. Or since the WFC trilogy had the Ark be a transformer, and his design has similarities to The Last Autobot from the comics, maybe the Ark itself could be made into a prime and acts as the progenitor to colossal cybertronians like Metroplex and Omega Supreme, and none of the autobots realize it until some big dramatic moment. This is just off the top of my head, but the point is that the 13th prime concept is ripe with potential.
I like the idea of him not literally being the Arisen, but that those who hold him in high regard see him as such. Some autobots think "He is just so great. We will follow him to the very end. Until all are one" (great inspiration), while some decepticons may think "He just has to be the Arisen. Yeah, that's right. We are fighting the destiny itself" (almost as a defence mechanism)
Optimus being a regular person who became worthy of leadership through his own actions and words fits better cause it shows us that anybody has that potential
No one really brings this up often, but Optimus being the reincarnation of the thirteenth Prime claiming back his title instead of letting others try is pretty much selfish by not only the Primes but Primus as well. P.S this might be my fav vid, beside the D-16 and Optimus vid, luv ur content as always
I think that people shouldn't treat them as mutuality exclusive. That's the nice thing about having him have no memory of it, the story plays out the same way. Be it miner, dock worker or archivist. It's what he does with his mortal life that is important. We, the viewers, can know there is more to the story, but saying that more disregards or diminishes the struggles of the mortal mech. It is extremely shallow. He's not a chosen one archetype, he gains nothing from this history like chosen ones generally do. It's not a defining trait. To put in more laymens terms, Optimus is the cake, the Thirteenth is the icing. Nothing changes for adding it, the character remains the same as he's ever been. It's just a cool thing for us deep lore nerds. I think there could be a really cool story in, a 'modern day' Optimus having to come to terms with those memories. How it all went horribly wrong and how he abandoned his siblings, which in turn aided in making the huge mess that he, the mortal, had to live in. There is absolutely something fun to explore there.
I like the idea of The 13th Prime, and idea that he is always out there, even if he himself doesn't know it, waiting for the day that cybertron needs someone to unite its people. I'm less a fan of him being Optimus though, as it feels a bit to chleté, (I know for sure I didn't spell that right) and with cases like transformers one, it really feels like that can take away the greatness of the character arch and whatnot.
I thinks it’s probably for the best if Optimus isn't the thirteen reborn but it would be cool to explore it as something that Optimus himself struggles with and the idea that he was "destined for it", and the tradegy of fate and the critizism fans have of the trope.
When it comes to the High Moon and Prime continuities, it isn’t a huge deal. It’s never mentioned or hinted at throughout their respective stories and for those who haven’t read the Covenant of Primus or searched through the TFwiki, which is the majority of fans, Orion was simply worthy by his own merits and that was that. It’s interesting conceptually but it just feels so odd for Transformers in my opinion. While I don’t quite mind some degree of mysticism when it comes to the original Primes or ancient relics like the Matrix, Allspark, Starsaber, Forge, etc. having Orion be part of some prophecy of sorts and to have always been destined to become a Prime feels rather pointless. I’ll always prefer Orion Pax to be more of a Steve Rogers/Peter Parker type character. Somebody who comes from humble beginnings who want to do their part to help people, and by mere chance end up being given the opportunity to act with their newfound knowledge and strength. Not a perfect soldier or general, but just a good person. The one who wants it the least but qualifies the most. I’m very pleased that TF One went that route.
I really like videos like this, I've also recently learned about the hero's journey in stories in my English class at college and this somehow relates to the subject I've learned and I've always wanted to learn more concepts about it. This video does a great job of explaining it! 👍🏻
Personally, I think that Optimus isn't the 13th Prime but that his actions, compassion and personality remind the older Cybertronions of the 13th from when he was around, to the point that they'll mistake him for the 13th upon meeting him.
I have no recollection from where i heard this from, but i know it was a character talking about Optimus: "You're not born a prime, you became one" I love that quote in so many different levels. The experiences i had turned me into who i am. It's priceless.
As for me, I genuinely hate the idea of Optimus being the reincarnation of the 13th. I hate Chosen Ones in general : it removes the strength of a story about becoming a hero by yourself. Matrix and the LEGO Movie understood the assignement by making the Chosen One a lie to keep people in line.
What about the idea of everyone believing that he is the thirteen despite time and time again he reissuers him he’s not. Even if he’s the 13th or not doesn’t matter, he’s still Optimus Prime, the legendary hero of Cybertron.
@@Travelerfrom2024 When he meets other primes like with Megatronus, they would think he’s the Arisen. Either that or he later finds out that he’s the 13th, he has to try to embrace his destiny and learn how to use his powers correctly like in Regular Show where Pops finds out he’s a primordial god. Maybe like Pops, Optimus would sacrafice himself to defeat the Fallen.
I don’t think that Optimus being the 13th Prime necessarily takes away from his character. Solely because the 13th Prime wasn’t special himself. (My only real knowledge on this aspect of TF lore is this video) If the 13th Prime did have anything special about him then I would agree that that it takes away a bit, but I think that since the main trait was that he was able to unify the other 12 Primes. To me it makes Optimus’s character better, as it more shows who he is to his core. Not someone that is really good at something or has a special power but to his core is nothing but pure good. I think both deliver similar messages but the means of getting to said message differ and thus cause the conflicting opinions.
As a kid, I loved chosen one narratives mainly because of the epic moment when a main character obtains a power-up with a “divine” feeling to it and then proceeds to kick ass. I now know that such a climax can be reached without sticking to the trope, and that many stories actually take that trope and subverts it. So I feel the same way about Optimus. I feel that way especially when it pertains Optimus, my childhood hero. I don’t want him to be a chosen one. I want him to earn his reputation and legacy. I would love some subversions of McGuffin tropes in Transformers as well (i.e. the McGuffins turn out to outright be a scam or McGuffins are absent entirely.) For example, what if we have the Matrix be used as a “Mandate of Heaven” by a series of corrupt rulers like in IDW (but it’s an artificial scam artifact), but then Megatron gets his hands on it (instead of Optimus) and puts it in his chest. Then Optimus has to work extra hard to prove to society that bearing the Matrix doesn’t change or say anything about the person at all.
Something I don’t see a lot of people acknowledge is that TF already had a “Chosen One” character long before the Aligned Continuity. It was supposed to be Hot Rod. The 86 movie and comics lean heavily into that concept. Optimus was supposed to be the one that rose to greatness. Rodimus was supposed to be the one destined for it. Both concepts have interesting possibilities to them, but I prefer Optimus just being a normal guy of some kind.
I hope we get to see more of Thirteen and the rest of the primes. While they have been used a lot more in recent media, their history is one of my favorite aspects of transformers lore and I feel like they have great story potential. Well done with this video, you managed to express opinions and arguments that I haven’t really thought before, which made this video all the more enjoyable to watch.
I do agree wholeheartedly that it is more impactful and meaningful for Optimus/Orion to have been a nobody before rising as a Prime. Not only it gives him a stronger arc, but it also opens possibilities to use the Thirteen in other ways. I vouch for the option to make Sari Sumdac the reincarnation of the Arisen xD.
One thing I found odd in the IDW Comics is that without Shockwave Orion Pax wouldn't even get to wield the MOL in the first place and even experienced immense pain when he bonded with it. In contrast, the Matrix went on FULL THROTTLE mode on Hot Rod, and he even said it felt wonderful. Something is definitely special about that boy
Wow. This video inadvertently made me change my headcanon with Hot Rod becoming Rodimus Prime. The entire time I always said that Hot Rod was the Chosen One. Right from the start, he was meant to be one to light the darkest hour. But no, he's actually just a guy who happened to be at the right place at the right time who had the qualities The Matrix needed as far as what I think now.
I personally prefer the idea a commenter mentioned where optimus is just himself and everyone assumes he's one of the original primes because of how he is, and how another mentioned optimus struggling because everyone assumes that he is and it leaves him wondering if he was destined. I have an idea where optimus served alongside the primes as a soldier and went on to build iacon and make it a place where lots of unique things emerged since optimus did know the 13 and learned from them, he would become a senator people love because of how he conducts himself and the misunderstanding that optimus is a prime because he never really heard anyone talk about it. It would be kind of funny and it would also be a fun read imo, i don't know let know what you think.
I agree that the assumption of him being the 13th is a far better idea than the confirmation itself. Again, the Aligned continuity did have the confirmation, but it was never really explored in the mainstream media side of it. Not to mention that continuity does not line up perfectly.
Really excellent analysis. I really resonate with most of the points you've made here. While I'm not the biggest fan of how John Barber handled Optimus Prime, I do think his take on the Arisen is probably the only version of it I've liked, because Barber used it in such a way that it becomes a core part of the narrative his Optimus is going through. As for whether or not IDW Optimus was the Arisen, I feel it's pretty easy to say that he honestly isn't? Mainly for a few reasons. Resurrection not being a thing in the IDWverse, especially with non-mystical their Primes are, we see that his birth kinda destroys any aspect of him being the Arisen, especially with how Alpha Trion doesn't seem to know him at all when witnessing his birth, and the most important of all, Arcee straight up objects to Optimus being the Arisen, with her claiming she knew who the the Thirteen actually was in Unicron #6 I think who the Arisen was simply someone who looked and acted similar to Optimus, which caused the Mistress to refer them as the same. Shockwave probably did so as a way to manipulate into Optimus into thinking he really was the Arisen for his own goals. As for Optimus calling himself the Arisen, I've always interpreted this as harkening back to the Aligned stuff, where he was the on to unite the primes. Now Optimus, the last of the primes, is the one to unite Cybertron and Earth to a better tomorrow via his sacrifice. Thus fulfilling the role of the Arisen. IDW Optimus is the Arisen in a metaphorical sense, rather than literal.
While I do find optimus being one of the original 13 an interesting story, that doesn't feel like optimus. Optimus is just supposed to be your average joe who got thrust into a leading position in a war. I feel his story is much more meaningful when he is a nobody turned heroic icon.
I Think I personally prefer when he is "connected" to the concept of the arisen and maybe implied to be the thirteenth, but not when its outright confirmed. I think the benefit in him maybe being the thirteenth and or the arisen is in what his spirit represents for and sense of weight and impact it gives to the social turmoil on Cybertron. After millennia of corrupt social institutions and ruthless inequality, one of the last first descendants of primus weigh to give their input on the caste structure of their homeworld. What I believe is important for the character of Optimus, and to a lesser extent Orion Pax, is how they are inspired by others around them and how they inspire others to be the best version of themselves. Whether he is a nameless bot who fought against the system in the way he saw fit, or a divine figure shrouded in mysticism I feel he has accomplished that in almost every continuity.
Personally, I've never been fond of the chosen/reincarnation idea for Optimus. Nor when he's given the role of prime by other bots like the council. Him being a simple bot who proved his worth to his fellow autobots always hits that much harder. That the matrix, and in turn Primus chooses, not anyone else.
I don’t like the idea of Optimus being a Chosen one, but I did dig the way how IDW chose to handle that aspect of him. Mainly because the comic doesn’t outright confirm or deny that he really is. It’s up to the readers to decide for themselves.
Now, I like the idea of the Thirteenth Prime cause I’m a 40k dood and I like when the backstory has mystery boxes into which you can pour your imagination. But… it just shouldn’t be Optimus. In continuities where both Optimus and Megatron are railing against cruel regimes (IDW, One) and corrupt Primes, having Optimus essentially win cause he’s predestined to be special just… cheapens everything. The important thing about Optimus is that he’s a kind, fatherly figure (Peter Cullen’s words) who always strives to do the right thing. I mean sure, he does get divinely ordained in One but that comes from him proving that he’s a kind bot who cares about everyone.
Transformers already has a chosen one in the hot rod/rodimus prime so the idea to make Optimus one aswell feels redundant. I'm glad zeta prime is the thirteenth in this movie and hope he is going forward as a prime that represents leadership.
I think both ideas are pretty interesting - it ultimately depends on the kind of story being told. Optimus being worthy as opposed to being preordained makes for a much more grounded, relatable, and aspirational take on the character, so ultimately, I agree with your opinion on the matter. That being said, I think it's often a case of having your cake and eating it too, when it comes to Transformers, because at a certain point, regardless of how much growth the character went through previously, once Optimus has the MacGuffin, he is irreversibly marked as mystically ordained - chosen to lead. As blasphemous as it might be, I would like to see a version of the character where the matrix isn't even involved, where - without a mystical signifier - it's only his actions and character that determine that he's worthy to lead and continue to do so.
I think there is something a lot of people are missing here. Just because he was an original prime doesn’t necessarily mean he would be worthy of the matrix. Look at megatronus in the idw and aligned continuities. He was an original prime and STILL the villain. Optimus can be an original prime AND still need to earn the matrix. The two don’t have to be mutually exclusive.
I honestly never knew optimus was one of the original primes i thought he was just someone who had the traits to be a prime and was given the matrix by primus since primus recognized him as worthy
unpopular opinion but i really like optimus being a reincarnation of 13, how the idw comics portrayed it atleast! I never really got into the aligned continuity a whole lot but I feel like the 13 primes not being literal gods and more just tribal leaders for early cybertronians in idw1 erases most people's problems with op being a "god" of sorts... i do understand how most people probably don't like it that way though
I was actually personally greatly disappointed to learn that Orion was the reincarnation of the Thirteenth, as to me Optimus Prime has been an inspiration that stood out moreso than others specifically because he rose to Leadership through his kindness and bravery alone. Arguably the version that depicts this the best is Skybound, where Optimus is a kind soul torn between his choices and regrets. He stood out to me in more ways than any other Prime before him and is the reason why i haven't given up on the entire franchise, pushing me to give the IDW comics a chance, to watch the older shows like Armada or more frequent ones like Cyberverse. While over time I've grown more fond of the more legendary/ religious plot lines (The IDW plotlines in regards to their religion interested me a lot), I still prefer Optimus as a tragic commoner, a nobody. I feel like making Optimus a Chosen One separates him from us normal readers and viewers in a sense. Often times when i see opinions on TFP Optimus he is moreso seen as a distant, legendary figure, rather than an ideal (like Skybound in a sense through his kindness and willingness to fight for his family)
I've always prefer the idea of Optimus Prime being his own individual than being the last member of the Primes. Ever since i checked out the Covenant of Primus, I never liked the 13th Prime as he was the least interesting out of all the Primes in this book, and the idea of him being the reincarnation of Optimus Prime was boring in my opinion. It's a retcon that i heavily disliked. This is why I am glad that TF One avoided that problem and picked Zeta Prime as the 13th Prime in its new continuity. It allows for the writers to give Optimus Prime his own character arc without any useless plot twist that could have ruin the impact of his character development.
I personally don't like that Optimus maybe the "13th" Prime TF One did it so much better, becoming a Prime shouldn't be predetermined but must be earned through will, compassion and sacrifice, that is why Primus gave him the Matrix.
!["ซี - เอมี่ " ย้อนความรัก 19 ปี ที่ต้องทนกันและกัน... | แฉ 22 ต.ค. 67 [2/3] | GMM25](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ykv9ILzatHM/mqdefault.jpg)
"The Matrix of Leadership is not found, but earned."
-Primes from Revenge of The Fallen.
Always preferred Optimus prime being just a regular bot who through his bravery wields the matrix of leadership. Gives him more humility and makes him more inspirational.
100%. While the idea of him being the Arisen is neat, I'm glad it has not become the standard.
@@DeltaTrionconcur’d. Otherwise it just becomes all divine right and stuff, transformers are seemingly fated to be ruled by a Prime or whatev, and it’s hard not to wonder “was IDW Megatron… too right?” When you think about that.
Same! So many franchises stink it up by making their characters some one destined for greatness for being related or born into it instead of them working towards it!
Agreed. Hopefully, any sequels of Transformers One keeps that instead of Optimus being a Chosen One.
@@krraika1847 He was at least chosen as a result of his actions
The only way that Optimus "being" the thirteenth Prime could work without damaging the character or the story would be if instead of 13, there were only 12 original Primes, and every "Prime" that came after were false Primes, so to speak. Bots that would rise to the position as military, political, and sometimes spiritual leaders, be it by popular vote, or by being chosen by the powers that be to bear the title. But that lacked the Matrix' blessings and the power that came with it.
Optimus, on the other hand, would be the first Prime since the originals to bear the Matrix, thus making him the first legitimate Prime since the first 12, and as such, the thirteenth Prime.
At least in TF One, Orion Pax is not the reincarnation of the Thirteenth Prime as it would have just been him reclaiming his divine birthright than being chosen as worthy for choosing to step up and be a leader of the Autobots.
Hit the nail right on the head.
Agreed I think it's better tho it does leave some unanswered questions.
For example in TFone Zeta prime is the one with the axe we see it it's the same colour and everything.
The only difference is zeta can wield it like a normal axe it doesn't have to be from his hand.
So normally the axe isn't an incarnation thing. But it can't be just an coincidence like is the axe just a matrix thing now?
Like you gain the knowledge of the ancients, the memories of the previous users and a pretty sweet axe lol.
Like is it just a previous users thing like its just Zeta's memory and experience and weapon.
Or is it all the primes because all of them were shown in the death vision in the afterlife.
Like how cool would it be if he has access to all their weapons.
I know it won't happen but it's a cool idea for future continuity's.
Oh TF One. I can't wait for TF Two. Not to mistake with TF2, or more well know TF2, or the movie TF2
I personally love both versions of Optimus. Both him being a reincarnated 13th prime, and also having no connections.
I personally feel being the reincarnation of the 13th prime doesn’t fully ruin his arc as Orion Pax, as I feel Orion could still go down the wrong path. He earned the matrix through his actions, not because he used to be the 13th.
Plus I do think it’s poetic that the 13th prime wanted to experience struggle and what a normal citizen goes through, so he gave up his prime status and memories.
Same.
I like the idea of Optimus being so good, noble, humble, all his defining trates. To the point that people (other cybertronians) would conclude that well, hes so good hes got to have been one of the original 13. Idk if i explain my thought process well, but its a feeling of greatness, which i think is absolutely perfect. As in our real world. So many people (or at least me without a doubt in my mind) can look at the character of Optimus as a role model. Someone so perfect it seems impossible. How can someone be so compassionate or so strong. It seems impossible to be this perfect character, but he inspires us to try and be.
"Be strong enough to be gentle" so a powerful phrase, which i have taken to heart. As cheesy as it sounds, i would not be who i am today if it werent for this character
This is a wonderful way of saying this. While Aligned did confirm it, it's a much better idea in IDW where it is never confirmed, but suggested so strongly. Like you said, he is so noble and humble people would believe that he IS the 13th without it being confirmed.
I always thought it was a good idea for Optimus to be the thirteenth Prime. But after TF One I started to think that it has a better message if he is not. I honestly think Transformers One handled TF's lore in an amazing way.
Both have their places for sure, but I do agree that having him be a "nobody" serves a better overall message.
Optimus being a reincarnation of somebody basically ruins what made Optimus Special to begin with. He’s special because he could be anybody. He could’ve been a blue collar worker, a former all start athlete, a librarian, a b-cop, a miner. The list goes on and to me that’s the point. Why give Optimus Prime an origin when you have others trying to aspire to be more. Optimus Prime represents that no matter who or what people are. It’s why I looked up to him as a kid as I didn’t care about his past, I cared about who he was now and how he inspired his Autobot’s and other kids, teens, and adults around.
Well said
100% agreed at 6:20 I always did love the idea that anyone can become a prime depending on the bot's courage kinda like with the 86 movie with Hot Rod. Great video dude!
I can't say I'm crazy over the idea of Optimus being a reincarnated prime, though maybe a good story that utilizes this premise might change my mind. That being said, the possibility of another prime that is even more mysterious than the others is definitely a fun idea that can be used for stories. Like, maybe the Arisen was the first person to be promoted to prime rather than being made as one, hence the title of "Arisen", and their name was stricken from history out of symbolism, that anyone can be a prime. Or they're an antagonist like Megatronus or Maximo, an acient corrupted being that's been forgotten by Cybertron and is an apocalyptic threat, serving as a way to introduce a character like Nova or Logos into the fold. Or since the WFC trilogy had the Ark be a transformer, and his design has similarities to The Last Autobot from the comics, maybe the Ark itself could be made into a prime and acts as the progenitor to colossal cybertronians like Metroplex and Omega Supreme, and none of the autobots realize it until some big dramatic moment. This is just off the top of my head, but the point is that the 13th prime concept is ripe with potential.
I like the idea of him not literally being the Arisen, but that those who hold him in high regard see him as such. Some autobots think "He is just so great. We will follow him to the very end. Until all are one" (great inspiration), while some decepticons may think "He just has to be the Arisen. Yeah, that's right. We are fighting the destiny itself" (almost as a defence mechanism)
Optimus being a regular person who became worthy of leadership through his own actions and words fits better cause it shows us that anybody has that potential
I think it's best that optimus and 13 are just parallels.
No one really brings this up often, but Optimus being the reincarnation of the thirteenth Prime claiming back his title instead of letting others try is pretty much selfish by not only the Primes but Primus as well.
P.S this might be my fav vid, beside the D-16 and Optimus vid, luv ur content as always
I think that people shouldn't treat them as mutuality exclusive. That's the nice thing about having him have no memory of it, the story plays out the same way. Be it miner, dock worker or archivist. It's what he does with his mortal life that is important. We, the viewers, can know there is more to the story, but saying that more disregards or diminishes the struggles of the mortal mech. It is extremely shallow. He's not a chosen one archetype, he gains nothing from this history like chosen ones generally do. It's not a defining trait. To put in more laymens terms, Optimus is the cake, the Thirteenth is the icing. Nothing changes for adding it, the character remains the same as he's ever been. It's just a cool thing for us deep lore nerds.
I think there could be a really cool story in, a 'modern day' Optimus having to come to terms with those memories. How it all went horribly wrong and how he abandoned his siblings, which in turn aided in making the huge mess that he, the mortal, had to live in. There is absolutely something fun to explore there.
I like the idea of The 13th Prime, and idea that he is always out there, even if he himself doesn't know it, waiting for the day that cybertron needs someone to unite its people. I'm less a fan of him being Optimus though, as it feels a bit to chleté, (I know for sure I didn't spell that right) and with cases like transformers one, it really feels like that can take away the greatness of the character arch and whatnot.
I thinks it’s probably for the best if Optimus isn't the thirteen reborn but it would be cool to explore it as something that Optimus himself struggles with and the idea that he was "destined for it", and the tradegy of fate and the critizism fans have of the trope.
When it comes to the High Moon and Prime continuities, it isn’t a huge deal. It’s never mentioned or hinted at throughout their respective stories and for those who haven’t read the Covenant of Primus or searched through the TFwiki, which is the majority of fans, Orion was simply worthy by his own merits and that was that.
It’s interesting conceptually but it just feels so odd for Transformers in my opinion. While I don’t quite mind some degree of mysticism when it comes to the original Primes or ancient relics like the Matrix, Allspark, Starsaber, Forge, etc. having Orion be part of some prophecy of sorts and to have always been destined to become a Prime feels rather pointless.
I’ll always prefer Orion Pax to be more of a Steve Rogers/Peter Parker type character. Somebody who comes from humble beginnings who want to do their part to help people, and by mere chance end up being given the opportunity to act with their newfound knowledge and strength. Not a perfect soldier or general, but just a good person. The one who wants it the least but qualifies the most.
I’m very pleased that TF One went that route.
5:16 HOLD UP. Let him cook
100% the thing I actually should have said here hahahaha
I really like videos like this, I've also recently learned about the hero's journey in stories in my English class at college and this somehow relates to the subject I've learned and I've always wanted to learn more concepts about it.
This video does a great job of explaining it! 👍🏻
Personally, I think that Optimus isn't the 13th Prime but that his actions, compassion and personality remind the older Cybertronions of the 13th from when he was around, to the point that they'll mistake him for the 13th upon meeting him.
I have no recollection from where i heard this from, but i know it was a character talking about Optimus: "You're not born a prime, you became one"
I love that quote in so many different levels. The experiences i had turned me into who i am. It's priceless.
As for me, I genuinely hate the idea of Optimus being the reincarnation of the 13th. I hate Chosen Ones in general : it removes the strength of a story about becoming a hero by yourself. Matrix and the LEGO Movie understood the assignement by making the Chosen One a lie to keep people in line.
What about the idea of everyone believing that he is the thirteen despite time and time again he reissuers him he’s not. Even if he’s the 13th or not doesn’t matter, he’s still Optimus Prime, the legendary hero of Cybertron.
@@rickyrackey7930 That's why IDW is great. They take what's not interesting in Transformers and makes it interesting.
@@Travelerfrom2024 When he meets other primes like with Megatronus, they would think he’s the Arisen. Either that or he later finds out that he’s the 13th, he has to try to embrace his destiny and learn how to use his powers correctly like in Regular Show where Pops finds out he’s a primordial god. Maybe like Pops, Optimus would sacrafice himself to defeat the Fallen.
I don’t think that Optimus being the 13th Prime necessarily takes away from his character. Solely because the 13th Prime wasn’t special himself. (My only real knowledge on this aspect of TF lore is this video) If the 13th Prime did have anything special about him then I would agree that that it takes away a bit, but I think that since the main trait was that he was able to unify the other 12 Primes. To me it makes Optimus’s character better, as it more shows who he is to his core. Not someone that is really good at something or has a special power but to his core is nothing but pure good.
I think both deliver similar messages but the means of getting to said message differ and thus cause the conflicting opinions.
As a kid, I loved chosen one narratives mainly because of the epic moment when a main character obtains a power-up with a “divine” feeling to it and then proceeds to kick ass. I now know that such a climax can be reached without sticking to the trope, and that many stories actually take that trope and subverts it. So I feel the same way about Optimus. I feel that way especially when it pertains Optimus, my childhood hero. I don’t want him to be a chosen one. I want him to earn his reputation and legacy. I would love some subversions of McGuffin tropes in Transformers as well (i.e. the McGuffins turn out to outright be a scam or McGuffins are absent entirely.) For example, what if we have the Matrix be used as a “Mandate of Heaven” by a series of corrupt rulers like in IDW (but it’s an artificial scam artifact), but then Megatron gets his hands on it (instead of Optimus) and puts it in his chest. Then Optimus has to work extra hard to prove to society that bearing the Matrix doesn’t change or say anything about the person at all.
Something I don’t see a lot of people acknowledge is that TF already had a “Chosen One” character long before the Aligned Continuity. It was supposed to be Hot Rod. The 86 movie and comics lean heavily into that concept. Optimus was supposed to be the one that rose to greatness. Rodimus was supposed to be the one destined for it.
Both concepts have interesting possibilities to them, but I prefer Optimus just being a normal guy of some kind.
Yeah I agree. Him being this chosen one kind of cheapens the theme of rising into greatness
I hope we get to see more of Thirteen and the rest of the primes. While they have been used a lot more in recent media, their history is one of my favorite aspects of transformers lore and I feel like they have great story potential. Well done with this video, you managed to express opinions and arguments that I haven’t really thought before, which made this video all the more enjoyable to watch.
Perhaps with the upcoming toyline based around them we will see more
I do agree wholeheartedly that it is more impactful and meaningful for Optimus/Orion to have been a nobody before rising as a Prime. Not only it gives him a stronger arc, but it also opens possibilities to use the Thirteen in other ways.
I vouch for the option to make Sari Sumdac the reincarnation of the Arisen xD.
One thing I found odd in the IDW Comics is that without Shockwave Orion Pax wouldn't even get to wield the MOL in the first place and even experienced immense pain when he bonded with it. In contrast, the Matrix went on FULL THROTTLE mode on Hot Rod, and he even said it felt wonderful. Something is definitely special about that boy
Wow. This video inadvertently made me change my headcanon with Hot Rod becoming Rodimus Prime. The entire time I always said that Hot Rod was the Chosen One. Right from the start, he was meant to be one to light the darkest hour. But no, he's actually just a guy who happened to be at the right place at the right time who had the qualities The Matrix needed as far as what I think now.
I personally prefer the idea a commenter mentioned where optimus is just himself and everyone assumes he's one of the original primes because of how he is, and how another mentioned optimus struggling because everyone assumes that he is and it leaves him wondering if he was destined.
I have an idea where optimus served alongside the primes as a soldier and went on to build iacon and make it a place where lots of unique things emerged since optimus did know the 13 and learned from them, he would become a senator people love because of how he conducts himself and the misunderstanding that optimus is a prime because he never really heard anyone talk about it.
It would be kind of funny and it would also be a fun read imo, i don't know let know what you think.
I agree that the assumption of him being the 13th is a far better idea than the confirmation itself. Again, the Aligned continuity did have the confirmation, but it was never really explored in the mainstream media side of it. Not to mention that continuity does not line up perfectly.
Really excellent analysis. I really resonate with most of the points you've made here.
While I'm not the biggest fan of how John Barber handled Optimus Prime, I do think his take on the Arisen is probably the only version of it I've liked, because Barber used it in such a way that it becomes a core part of the narrative his Optimus is going through.
As for whether or not IDW Optimus was the Arisen, I feel it's pretty easy to say that he honestly isn't? Mainly for a few reasons. Resurrection not being a thing in the IDWverse, especially with non-mystical their Primes are, we see that his birth kinda destroys any aspect of him being the Arisen, especially with how Alpha Trion doesn't seem to know him at all when witnessing his birth, and the most important of all, Arcee straight up objects to Optimus being the Arisen, with her claiming she knew who the the Thirteen actually was in Unicron #6
I think who the Arisen was simply someone who looked and acted similar to Optimus, which caused the Mistress to refer them as the same. Shockwave probably did so as a way to manipulate into Optimus into thinking he really was the Arisen for his own goals.
As for Optimus calling himself the Arisen, I've always interpreted this as harkening back to the Aligned stuff, where he was the on to unite the primes. Now Optimus, the last of the primes, is the one to unite Cybertron and Earth to a better tomorrow via his sacrifice. Thus fulfilling the role of the Arisen.
IDW Optimus is the Arisen in a metaphorical sense, rather than literal.
While I do find optimus being one of the original 13 an interesting story, that doesn't feel like optimus. Optimus is just supposed to be your average joe who got thrust into a leading position in a war. I feel his story is much more meaningful when he is a nobody turned heroic icon.
This is an awesome vid bro. Great job.
I Think I personally prefer when he is "connected" to the concept of the arisen and maybe implied to be the thirteenth, but not when its outright confirmed. I think the benefit in him maybe being the thirteenth and or the arisen is in what his spirit represents for and sense of weight and impact it gives to the social turmoil on Cybertron. After millennia of corrupt social institutions and ruthless inequality, one of the last first descendants of primus weigh to give their input on the caste structure of their homeworld. What I believe is important for the character of Optimus, and to a lesser extent Orion Pax, is how they are inspired by others around them and how they inspire others to be the best version of themselves. Whether he is a nameless bot who fought against the system in the way he saw fit, or a divine figure shrouded in mysticism I feel he has accomplished that in almost every continuity.
Personally, I've never been fond of the chosen/reincarnation idea for Optimus. Nor when he's given the role of prime by other bots like the council.
Him being a simple bot who proved his worth to his fellow autobots always hits that much harder.
That the matrix, and in turn Primus chooses, not anyone else.
I didn't know there were 13 primes I thought micronus prime and sentinel were the only others that optimus who are the other 10 or 11 then
Intristing vid and yeah it was suprise to know optimus was an ancient reigncarned
I don’t like the idea of Optimus being a Chosen one, but I did dig the way how IDW chose to handle that aspect of him. Mainly because the comic doesn’t outright confirm or deny that he really is. It’s up to the readers to decide for themselves.
Now, I like the idea of the Thirteenth Prime cause I’m a 40k dood and I like when the backstory has mystery boxes into which you can pour your imagination.
But… it just shouldn’t be Optimus. In continuities where both Optimus and Megatron are railing against cruel regimes (IDW, One) and corrupt Primes, having Optimus essentially win cause he’s predestined to be special just… cheapens everything. The important thing about Optimus is that he’s a kind, fatherly figure (Peter Cullen’s words) who always strives to do the right thing. I mean sure, he does get divinely ordained in One but that comes from him proving that he’s a kind bot who cares about everyone.
Transformers already has a chosen one in the hot rod/rodimus prime so the idea to make Optimus one aswell feels redundant. I'm glad zeta prime is the thirteenth in this movie and hope he is going forward as a prime that represents leadership.
I often consider Optimus as the 13th prime in the Aligned Continuniy and 14th Prime in the One-Verse.
I think both ideas are pretty interesting - it ultimately depends on the kind of story being told. Optimus being worthy as opposed to being preordained makes for a much more grounded, relatable, and aspirational take on the character, so ultimately, I agree with your opinion on the matter.
That being said, I think it's often a case of having your cake and eating it too, when it comes to Transformers, because at a certain point, regardless of how much growth the character went through previously, once Optimus has the MacGuffin, he is irreversibly marked as mystically ordained - chosen to lead.
As blasphemous as it might be, I would like to see a version of the character where the matrix isn't even involved, where - without a mystical signifier - it's only his actions and character that determine that he's worthy to lead and continue to do so.
You mean like Animated?
@@JoshingYa Haha, I actually forgot that it was that way in Animated, but yes, that's exactly what I'd like to see more of. :)
I think there is something a lot of people are missing here. Just because he was an original prime doesn’t necessarily mean he would be worthy of the matrix. Look at megatronus in the idw and aligned continuities. He was an original prime and STILL the villain. Optimus can be an original prime AND still need to earn the matrix. The two don’t have to be mutually exclusive.
I personally prefer Optimus earning his position as a prime, rather than being destined to be a prime from the very beginning.
I honestly never knew optimus was one of the original primes i thought he was just someone who had the traits to be a prime and was given the matrix by primus since primus recognized him as worthy
unpopular opinion but i really like optimus being a reincarnation of 13, how the idw comics portrayed it atleast! I never really got into the aligned continuity a whole lot but I feel like the 13 primes not being literal gods and more just tribal leaders for early cybertronians in idw1 erases most people's problems with op being a "god" of sorts... i do understand how most people probably don't like it that way though
I was actually personally greatly disappointed to learn that Orion was the reincarnation of the Thirteenth, as to me Optimus Prime has been an inspiration that stood out moreso than others specifically because he rose to Leadership through his kindness and bravery alone.
Arguably the version that depicts this the best is Skybound, where Optimus is a kind soul torn between his choices and regrets.
He stood out to me in more ways than any other Prime before him and is the reason why i haven't given up on the entire franchise, pushing me to give the IDW comics a chance, to watch the older shows like Armada or more frequent ones like Cyberverse.
While over time I've grown more fond of the more legendary/ religious plot lines (The IDW plotlines in regards to their religion interested me a lot), I still prefer Optimus as a tragic commoner, a nobody.
I feel like making Optimus a Chosen One separates him from us normal readers and viewers in a sense.
Often times when i see opinions on TFP Optimus he is moreso seen as a distant, legendary figure, rather than an ideal (like Skybound in a sense through his kindness and willingness to fight for his family)
This reminds me of how everyone is saying MoistCritikal is Jesus.
The Thirteen Primes are similar to the twelve tribes of Israel or the twelve disciples of Jesus jesus Christ from judeo-christian mythology.
I've always prefer the idea of Optimus Prime being his own individual than being the last member of the Primes. Ever since i checked out the Covenant of Primus, I never liked the 13th Prime as he was the least interesting out of all the Primes in this book, and the idea of him being the reincarnation of Optimus Prime was boring in my opinion. It's a retcon that i heavily disliked.
This is why I am glad that TF One avoided that problem and picked Zeta Prime as the 13th Prime in its new continuity. It allows for the writers to give Optimus Prime his own character arc without any useless plot twist that could have ruin the impact of his character development.
I personally don't like that Optimus maybe the "13th" Prime TF One did it so much better, becoming a Prime shouldn't be predetermined but must be earned through will, compassion and sacrifice, that is why Primus gave him the Matrix.
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The page isn't linked.
Whoops! Good catch, adding it now!!!
@@DeltaTrion
Thanks.