There's an important part from 2:19:02 to about 2:21:00. Simon asks if you're in zone 2 if you do maybe resistance training and your heart rate passes through the zone 2 range, it cumulatively counts as zone 2. Dr. San Millan basically says no it does not. Heart rate applies as an approximate measure of zone 2 _only if it is done during continuous, steady aerobic exercise._ The zone 2 benefits come from the muscles working for a sustained time at an intensity that uses the mitochondria to burn the most fat. The heart rate is just a surrogate measurement of the important part- the muscles working continuously. A panic attack or horror movie can put your heart rate to 130, but your muscles aren't doing work in the chair. And if you've been doing resistance training, your body is just catching up for several seconds of high intensity work, not supporting minutes of mitochondria-building medium light intensity work. As Dr. San Millan says at 2:20:07 "it's a recovery phase, it's not a metabolic phase". In both cases the heart rate is meaningless even if it is in "zone 2" because it doesn't represent that type of muscle activity. When your muscles are working at a steady pace, warmed up/vasodilated, and calling for oxygen for several minutes straight, your heart will increase both speed and strength of contractions, and that's where heart rate actually means something, it can approximate what metabolic phase you're in because the heart rate comes from the metabolism itself. I've seen people make this mistake, if your watch/app says "zone 2" but you're just passing through instead of doing it for 10+ minutes, you're not really in zone 2 even if your pulse is. From 2:10:00 to 2:10:30 (and earlier in this podcast I think) he seems to imply you can get zone 2 benefits at 30 minutes (maybe even 15 minutes at 2:05:30 because it takes that long to start up) but it's better to go 60 minutes or so continuously.
Yes, heart rate is more of a helpful correlate than an actual indicator of being in zone 2. The only reliable way of determining your zone 2 is to find out the maximum constant pace you can sustain for at least an hour (or better still, 2 hours) without getting tired, and then note what your heart rate was during that time and use that for later reference. It will likely take a few tries and is quite a boring process, but it's the only way to be sure.
@@AlexV-jh7ul I mostly agree on your comments. I do the same, watching my heart rate and seeing how it goes day to day, and it took several days to figure out at first. Generally it should be very consistent, with a good measure of intensity and consistent conditions. For me it's ±1 bpm at equal output, even week to week. It's easy to gauge indoors, much harder with different outdoor routes on wind and hilly terrain. When fitness improves, the number goes down. Dr. San Millan says in other podcasts (but I don't think in this one) that lactate is strongly correlated to heart rate. I think this can be used to determine zone 3. Since zone 3 is where lactate starts to outpace the mitochondria and build up, then that's where your heart rate goes up also. For instance if I can keep it at 140 bpm for an hour at the same pace, but at 142 it suddenly climbs over 150 in 10 minutes despite a steady pace, then max zone 2 is the pace that produces 140-141. I'd gauge from this instead of "without getting tired" because I think it's possible to not feel too tired at a low zone 3 pace for over an hour, which is a little of a waste. I don't know why Dr. San Millan left this out, I assume he knows it but maybe doesn't emphasize it because the people for whom it's relevant (e.g. top cyclists) are getting lactate tested directly anyway. For layfolk like me it's a great way to determine zone 2- the highest steady exercise you can go without your pulse starting to run away. (or I'm just wrong)
@@ErrantChordier Yeah, I guess the "getting tired" part can be a bit subjective and depend on one's fitness level. On the other hand, you're very unlikely to be able to sustain that higher zone 3 pace for 2 hours (rather than 1 hour) without getting completely exhausted - AFAIK even elite athletes can only do it for up to 90 minutes.
@@AlexV-jh7ul I think the 90 minutes is actually zone 4, at least how I define it. My working definition of zone 3 is- glycogen supply is the limiting factor and runs out before lactate climbs enough to cause acidosis, while zone 4 is the opposite- lactate builds up to acidosis levels before glycogen runs out. I like this definition because it's measurable and metabolically discrete, and generally seems to line up with how others categorize it. "Elite" level marathon (
@@ErrantChordier I'm not too familiar with the topic of elite performance, are you saying that elite marathon runners spend the whole 2+ hours of a race in zone 3, or most of it in zone 3 and then switch to zone 4 once the lactate is built up?
I have been fortunate enough to have guidance from Dr. San Millan. I am not a professional athlete, but he treated me like I was! He genuinely cares about your success.
LOVE this video. I had breast cancer and got myself through it by cycling every day and five years later am still doing b that. (And running and swimming) Oncologist’s main advice:”exercise!!” So I did!
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:00 🤖 Introduction to metabolic health and exercise's impact 08:08 💡 Mitochondrial Function and Cardio-Metabolic Diseases 12:46 🧬 Metabolic Flexibility and its Significance 21:11 🔥 Factors Contributing to Metabolic Dysfunction 35:09 🍃 The Transition from Aerobic to Anaerobic 38:41 🧪 Mitochondrial Function and Zone 2 59:24 🔬 Lactate's Role in Cancer 01:00:06 🚴♂️ Training Strategies 01:08:27 🏃♀️ 80/20 Rule and Training Split 01:25:49 🍏 Diet and Metabolic Health in Primitive Populations 01:38:52 🏃♂️ Understanding Zone 2 Training and Its Significance 01:55:03 🧐 The Myth of the "Fat Burning Zone" 02:09:01 💪 Zone Two Training and Health Benefits 02:36:05 💡 Key Takeaways on Metabolic Health Made with HARPA AI
Having listened to the whole thing I now feel like I’ve done a year at university ;-) Packed with information delivered in an unpatronising way. Perfect. 🎉
Great presentation. At 1hr 30:00 is a great reminder that the populations moving alot and eating 65-70% carbohydrates, 15-20% protein & 10-15% total fat intake. When fat is kept pretty low the insulin receptor sites wont be fat saturated. P.u.f.a.s now especially fried foods are I think one of the main reasons the receptors get altered/interference. Pure saturated fat from memory gets metabolised more instantly like mct oil. Its also why dling experiments with overfeeding subjects with 200cals a day of 90% cacao dark chocolate & organic coconut oil would have different metabolic outcome with 200cal of canola oil. When pre Westernised Japanese ate lots of white rice and not too much fat alongside it they didnt get obese even on 300g+ carbs a day perhaps 60g fat and 120g protein example etc. Now we take the same 300g carbs from daily Kfc and oreos and fatty icecreams say 200g of fat with the same 120g protein the massive increase in fat increased total caloric load plus was loaded with toxic oils which increase insulin resistance.
The information in this podcast is so helpful! I realize that I have been beating up my poor mitochondria with lots of extreme daily exercise, both cardio and resistance. Thank you so much, Simon and Inigo. You both are doing such a great service to people.
@TheProofWithSimonHill I found it very interesting that he defended a low carb diet as a tool to get your mitochondrial/metabolic health back on track! Going low carb has changed dramatically how I feel. As I continue to surpass my health goals it will be Interesting to start adding back in some healthy carbs and see how I feel. I also plan to start adding in more zone 2 training after watching this, along with the zone 4 that I have been typically doing to this point.
Thanks , up to the point. Good explanation about zone 2 which most talk about as if we know it. Also good explanation about lactate. He is a good humble scientist no inflated ballon bubbles ego which most speaker have super inflated ego and self wasting our valuable time to learn but always sell themselves in a market. Amazing high standard interview by both host and guest . Keep the high standard and don’t sink as others. People wants honesty, clarity, simplicity and down to the understanding of lay people. This comment from professional medical doctor who is the more I know and learn the more don’t know.
Wow, I was searching for zone 2 content so I could learn more about this and this was really the best and most helpful of all the videos I've watched. It truly makes a huge difference when you have an actual expert and researcher in the field, as well as a world-class interviewer (absolutely great questions!) than to have a somewhat knowledgeable TH-camr, but who doesn't go as often on TH-cam into this much depth. So thank you very much for this!
@@GabrielBacon Currently training for the Marine Corps Marathon and getting my time under 2:35. I then have the Disney Marathon in January and will plan a few more for the spring. I run about 5-7 marathons a year on my quest to run all 50 states in under three hours.
@@GabrielBaconExtreme? I do 10-14 hours a week and I’m training for nothing but being in the present moment. However, if I want to compete in something I can, but how silly it is to “pay money” to compete in some endeavour to have someone pat you on your back and tell you “good job” or have a need to seek validation or worse motivation to do something.
It’s far more than wonderful. What he’s describing here is the holy grail of the most efficient training in the world and it’s awesome. And yes, the person saying that your training may be extreme obviously did not see that you are at the level of an athlete. Nothing extreme about that. Your training is normative for a higher leveling of cardio health and performance.
46:59 “I’m not sure if I articulated that well” That question was articulated exquisitely!! Doubt it could possibly have been articulated more specifically or more clearly…
@@TheProofWithSimonHill The clear description of the talk test. I'd like to know more about the trade offs. I'm not interested in being an elite athlete. So if I do an extra hour a week in zone two what benefit does this get me?
An amazing discussion. As a cclinician who utilizes VO2 testing in my cardiology practice, it has been exciting to incorporate the information gained from this test to help our patients in cardiac rehab and pulmonary rehab. I too have had questions about testing , benefits of zone, directed, exercise, supplements, etc. San Milan seem to keep saying “a great question“ because brother Hill kept asking great questions. Questions that I wanted to know or hear discussion about. Simply an excellent podcast. I subscribed :-)
Have you seen improvements in LV EF? I'm 38, and for an unknown reason was found to be at 50%, Im not hypertensive, 110/60-124/77 range BP during the day, have a 0% calcium score, never had a heart attack. I don't understand why I'm borderline heart failure at this point.
I just found your channel and can't get enough of your videos. Very informative,. It looks like you aim to be as inclusive, thorough and impartial as possible. You also have the most insghtful guests. Top of their field. Thank you!
@@TheProofWithSimonHill Okay Simon, I've got some doubts for you guys if you ever get to meet again. Or you can make these questions to another person if you like. 1. Iñigo said that for teamsports athletes, the planification of training might be slightly different. I guess it is less Zone 2 focussed compared to athletes like swimmers or runners.. Is it because it isn't efficient for teams to dedicate their (sometimes limited) training time for the metabolic aspect when they have so much tactical and technical aspects to train + physical that is more focussed on strength and prevention programs? Would the athletes still benefit just as much of Zone 2 training time, maybe isolated from their teams training sessions? Is it that much benefitial, considering their kind of physical deployment (change of directions & rythms & sometimes long sprints, but still with a good amount of runs that aren't extremely explosive)? 2. Is it counterproductive for people that want to build another type of muscle fibers (such as, let's say, powerlifters), to train in Zone 2 and therefore develop more / differentiate their muscle more in a slowtwitch fashion? 3. Whenever an individual's respiratory system is compromised, would that compromise the utility of the 'talking test' to find the Zone 2 (/any other Zone) of that person? What would be the tips to avoid false results? Is there any adaptation to the test/ other tests that would work too without needing the lab exam?
Amazing questions, Simon! I've seen multiple interviews with Dr Inigo but for me this one was the best, simply because it came from someone who is not an MD or DO or interested in one aspect alone of his work. I've been doing something approximating zone 2 trainings for about half a year and I can say my recovery from a hard Z4 or even Z5 is less than 5 minutes compared with last year when it would take me 15-20 minutes to recover. Now I have also a lactate meter to try to figure our where my Z2 is precisely, yet that depends also on how rested you are or how fatigued your muscles are, and Dr Inigo is bang on with the perceived exertion. It happened to me to be able to do Z2 at 200W in one day and on a different day after a hard bike session in weekend I was already at 2.4-2.5 mmol of lactate at the same power, yet it felt way harder. Thank you for the great interview!
This is the best interview with Dr. in Nico. Thank you Simon for asking so many intelligent, on the nose questions and to both of you for getting down to where the rubber meets the road in practical advice about training in zone two.
Just want to say thank you and kudos for this podcast/interview. The fact that you fully understand the science and were able to summarize things in layman’s terms made this so enjoyable. I’m listening a second time now and I’m sure I’ll listen several more times. Excellent content. ❤
I actually listened to your interview of Dr Stacy Sims before this one and now I'm a bit confused. She doesn't seem to be in favor of zone 2/moderate intensity cardio for women, especially that many hours a week. I don't know if this whole conversation only applies to men because the studies were done on men and excluded healthy premenopausal women as they often do, or what do you think Simon? Is this something that's gonna be covered in a future episode?
I'm about to watch this - my favourite type of podcast! First, I feel compelled to say that I think the host is the healthiest and most glowing person I've ever seen (and I'm 57!) He exudes health and wellbeing. Impressive!
I'm 11 weeks postpartum. I've found that walking with my now 15lb baby in the carrier keeps me in zone 2 (zone 3 up hill). One of the few times I get to listen to long form podcasts too. I'm really focusing on enjoying this time before he's too big to carry
Please watch the weight of the baby and follow the chart . Also human breast milk is the best food for babies immune system in the future and microbiome. I am Obestetrician very conscious about my patients weight and their babies. Prevention of diseases is better than the cure. Health start in utero and type of delivery. Hope this is helpful, if not I apologise and sorry.
@@samieramohamed2467 I appreciate your concern but all is well here. I exclusively breast feed, baby's length is proportional to weight gain, and his pediatrician is happy.
Phenomenal content ! Thank you Simon for your exquisite quality of content., your kindness and your style of interview. Dr San Milan is amazing Your podcasts with Dr Dayspring changed my husband’s health trajectory as we found a stellar lipidologist who walks the same line as Dr Dayspring and knows him . Much gratitude always !
Thanks! Much appreciated. At 2h11m when Inigo says you see "Metabolic Data" of fit people in their 60s who resemble people in their 30s, what data is he refereeing to? Can we infer metabolic fitness to some degree by basic blood testing which includes HbA1c, T cell ratios (immunity), lipid profile, liver and kidney function etc.?
Wow, this was a bang. Scientific background and practical application. Everything related to exercise hits the spot for me. I’m curious to learn more. And Simon, your qualities as a host are beyond excellent. Summarising, asking simple questions the listeners might have, challenging believes - you evolved so much.
A job well done! Your complementary comments and pertinent and clearly articulated questions culminated in an immensely valuable and practical guide \ manual for a healthy existence and, once again, brought out the very best of Inigo San Millan. Be well!
Great discussion tying together many different fields of interest (biochemistry, metabolism, mitochondrial function, sports medicine, ICU recovery). I deep dove into his publications last night. Definitely a podcast to listen to multiple times. Thank you for the update on the lactate shuttle.
Thank you guys for this. It is priceless. Your gratitude towards one another at the end of the video is wholesome. And you deserve the credits. You're changing lives with this content Simon, and Iñigo it is really admirable that you dedicate yourself to sharing your knowledge through the divulgators like Simon or Fissac in Spain, we're lucky to have access to such scientifical wisdom. I've been taking notes and I think it was all very clear. If I ever have any doubt, I'll make sure I'll share them with you guys in case you meet again :) Bless you!
I really am excited about getting into some of the Zone 2 training. I remember Simon made an episode on this not so long ago and was constantly remembering myself I had to watch it but I never really made it. Now with Iñigo it was a must-watch. I'm sure I'll enjoy the hours of Zone 2 walking heheh
I’ve watched and rewatched most of the Zone 2 podcasts published. I have the theory down now but what would be really helpful is a short demonstration with Iñigo watching and commenting on the demonstration. Because the margin for error is relatively small (10 bpm) it would be good to see what he means by the ‘talk test’ indicator. Thanks for adding to this growing area of knowledge.
I would be careful with HR as Z2 indicator. Switching from summer to autumn my HR is now easily 10 bpm lower just because of temp. LT1 is around upper Z2 is around VT1. VT being ventilatory threshold. It is basically where you start to breath deeper because of higher O2 demand. Talk test refer to that. You are still able to talk, but the other side would notice that you are exercising..
@@danb7808 I use a combination of indicators. At the moment the main one is the ‘talk test’ or what i believe it to be. Secondly, using a chest strap and the point just before the heart rate takes off and becomes out of control. So the heart rate is at its highest stable point, for me it’s around 115 bpm. The heart rate figure will increase over time so this needs to be remembered. I’ve heard two slightly different descriptions of the ‘talk test’ and that’s why i’d like to see a demonstration. You really only need to be out a little on the talk test to be out of your zone 2 band, it’s a very narrow window.
Watching way too many videos and doing absolutely nothing about it, just watching videos. 10 bpm is definitely not a relatively small margin of error. I just made it smaller for you, get on bike and cycle 120-125 bpm. Ride in the morning upon waking when your resting heart rate is not raised from a whole day of sun, caffeine, stress, talking, thinking and emotional regulation. Learn how to control your thoughts and emotions to keep your bpm steady, keep your cadence high, don’t cheat with low cadence. Ride at least 3 times a week for 2 hours and once a week for 4 hours (in this ride you should see your bpm raise and it will be a test overtime of your bpm stability)
Greetings Friends, Which segment of our discussion struck you as the most compelling? I'd be delighted to read your thoughts. Additionally, if you've any related questions, kindly leave them in the comments. I'll make sure they're addressed in our forthcoming conversation.
Wonderfull and very interesting conversation - and I loved when he mentioned the core question: What causes the mitochondrial disfunction? And the important conclusion to improve mitochondrial numbers and Health is exercise - that just sounds as a very good message - keep moving moderate exercise is important for everybody
Thank you, Simon, for such a wonderful, detailed, insightful session. It helped me to understand what actually Zone 2 means in terms of science and practical implications.
Dr San Milan is very persuasive I have to say. But he is asking a lot. Not even Peter Attia in his Centenarian Decathlon asks so much of his patients in terms of time in Zone 2. He mentioned that sustainability in exercise and diet is important and everyone would agree. But wow! 600 minutes plus per week plus Zone 5 plus resistance training. Thank you Simon for exploring breaking it up into two 30 minute sessions. That seems much more sustainable especially if it is broken into two modalities to keep exercise interesting. Thank you as always for an informative and beneficial podcast.
I do between 600-840 minutes of zone 2 per week. If you do that much zone 2, you’ll realize the benefits overall much greater than the ones you are chasing. Wtf are two thirty minute modalities? That’s a joke in any type of endurance training. Most people are never able to make the sacrifices and handle the suffering needed for even the things the claim they want because keeping something “interesting” is more important. If that’s how weak your psychology is, then no offence but you need more zone 2 training. Put in the work or don’t.
Thank you for your opinion. I disagree. Exercise is never an all or nothing proposition. Something is always better than nothing. Pleased you are so mentally tough. Good for you.
@@jimpatek6244 You are free, free enough to make choices. Just don’t think there aren’t others making other choices. You see, you call it “exercise.” You do it for health benefits or for some goal, milestone in the exercise you are doing at which point you will feel some sort of validation. But remember, that we are spiritual beings having a human experience and in that 4th hour of one of my zone 2, non stop cycling rides, I am in the “present moment” with reality. There is no outside programmed belief or internal insecurities, conscious or subconscious that I am validating or chasing. I just am with reality and in 4 hours non stop, enough thoughts and emotions pass by and I observe them, not attach to them, let pass, it’s like active meditation and I feel no suffering because I can sit in the moment and experience it for what it is. The “exercise” or “health benefits” from Zone 2 cycling are simply shallow fodder and if that’s all you get out of it then it explains what you are after and your reasoning for it and thus you need to make a compromise and maybe devote more hours to something pleasurable because this seems painful to you. It’s not to me.
hey Simon, would you consider doing a follow up to this episode with Dr Stacy Sims? I have been listening to some of her recent content and, unless I have misunderstood, I think she has a perspective on zone 2 for women in the menopause transition, leading up to or post menopause. Her perspective is for women in this life stage to polarise their training - a focus on heaving lifting but then polarising this with sprint interval training and/or true HIIT. She discourages the moderate intensity cardio but I'm not sure if this extends to zone 2 also (not sure if she buckets these together)? I just wonder for women in the menopause transition who already have elevated cortisol, does zone 2 training for 150-300 mins a week exacerbate this and drive up other unwanted symptoms such as abdominal weight gain? Would be great to get her perspective. Thank you, great episode as always!
Zone 2 is low intensity, not moderate. Perhaps Dr Sims was talking about a 3 zone model rather than a 5-6 zone model because the two get confused quite often.
I was wondering the same @richardmiddleton7770 however I have read some of her stuff and she talks about how women by the nature of XX chromosome are already born with more of the proteins within mitochondria for doing fatty acid metabolism. Women are also born with more ability to handle oxidative stress. She says women don’t have to spend hours and hours on Zone 2 trying to increase aerobic functionality. Women fuel differently, even before peri and post-menopause by the fact that women's bodies will rely on blood glucose and fatty acids and slightly tap into liver and muscle glycogen. And so the goal of Zone 2 is not to tap into that liver and muscle glycogen, it’s to really tap into the fatty acids. But according to Stacy Sims, women are already there. This was a transcript from a podcast she did. This is where I just question if the data shows the results for women and not just men bc according to Stacy Sims the protocol for women is different and it's very confusing trying to work out how to train.
I wanted to ask a few questions hopefully future episodes could address: - are the zone 2 mitochondrial adaptations present in every cell in the body? Or just the working muscle fibers? How do we measure this? - what are some ways a persons metabolic health is measured clinically? How does a person know if they have poor metabolic health, other than the hallmarkers like HTN discussed at the beginning? - how long does it take to see some benefits? Thanks again for the fantastic podcast! I’m currently hoping to go to medical school, so these are incredibly informative and inspiring, and the clarity of both the issue and the solution inspire me to share this with others
I’ll reply with more questions in this thread: -he said exercise is the only thing we know that improves mitochondrial function. Is he familiar with Dr Chris Palmers research, who discusses brain mitochondrial health in the context of psychiatric disorders? Dr palmer (who was on Huberman) believes a ketogenic diet improved mitochondrial health as well within the brain. I should note I am very skeptical of that, but am interested since my education isn’t really high enough to look at the science and agree/disagree yet
Would it be possible to do a master class episode on metabolic health? What are the numbers associated with how it worsens chronic illness outcomes, how is it precisely defined, and what numbers can we attach to the cellular processes? I’m not familiar with the physiology exactly, but is there a change in the net total ATP produced in the cells that have poor mitochondrial health? How about across the body?
It may also be neat to have a follow up episode (maybe with Layne Norton) on energy balance: how is energy balance defined, why should people care, how is it measured, what do imbalances look like. His five part fat loss series from about 5 years ago on TH-cam is also fascinating, so a recap on that may be useful within the discussion as well.
I suspect that zone 2 does lead to every cell’s mitochondrial function increasing, since it is an effective preventative measure for Alzheimer’s, and a hallmarker of Alzheimer’s is decreased mitochondrial function within the brain Is this right?
This was a really interesting topic, and you both were awesome at reviewing and summarizing the information. Thanks to both of you for sharing your time and expertise ❤
Amazing episode. Z2 has truly changed my life. Especially when it comes to the stresses of life. Thanks for going deep and scientific, gents. Truly wonderful.
Fantastic podcast !! Thank you so much for it, I am trying to understand better all aspects of metabolic health as part of my health goals and the info you got here helps me tons!! You asked the exact issues that are around my head and also made clear the complexity of the topic; now I got to get back to BIO 101 to remember the metabolic pathways 🤣 Thanks again and keep up with the good work!!
Just found this channel. I am now 61, have been running for several years, but now coming off a foot injury. Starting up again I decided on Zone 2 or low heart rate training (MAF). My maximum heart rate is 177bpm, MUCH higher than any calculations indicate for my age. Based on the “calculations” my max zone 2 is 140 hbm, however, on the conversation “test” that can be done up to 154 hpm. The 140 currently results in a lot of walking but not for the 154 so I continually wrestle with the correct zone 2 level for myself.
I just finished watching this great episode. I really enjoyed the very practical questions you asked that we part-time athletes struggle with. I just had one unanswered question related to the amount of exercise per week. As a triathlete we practice different muscle groups per activity. Can we add the time spent in different activities up to come to the 300 weekly minutes or is this time minimum set per activity discipline?
Inigo is amazing person and inovator helping millions of people. How does he measure improvements in mitochondrial function with zone 2 as mentioned in 49:40.
Thanks Simon, eye-opening interview! Although I've seen several other interviews to Iñigo before, this is the best ever! Well done! Clearly, even if there were "free healthy lunch", it would never be as helpful as a "free zone-2 hour"!
Simon, please help me find your interview of Herman Pontzer. What is the title? I've read his book Burn and have watched multiple interviews with him and learn something new from every one. Thanks! Just found your channel and am becoming a subscriber 😊
Glad to hear him covering NMN, rapamycin and resveratrol at the end there as my opinion is starting to lean heavily in the direction of just leave all that sort of stuff alone. Also 300-600mins a week is going to take me ages to get too because my understanding was you should only increase your range or duration by a little bit at a time and I struggle to do the 150 per week
Fantastic. Dr Inigo San Millan is a world treasure for sure. That being said, i want to give a serious shout out to the job that you did here in summarizing and organizing (and editing) the scientific data so that we mortals can use it. So many people think that just getting the raw data from the scientist is best. I strongly disagree. I feel that in the last few moments of your interview, it is clear that Dr Inigo San Millan recognizes this fact as well. Keep up the good work. So many of my lingering questions were answered here. Question: Where does protein and amino acids play in the Metabolic Map presented by Dr Inigo? ex: What happens if we substitute have of the daily carbs with more whey protein?
Thank you Simon, A great pod cast. One question I have is are the mitochondrial benefits from zone 2 training body wide or isolated, or concentrated only in those muscles that dominate the exercise?
Edit…touching on it at the 2:15:00 mark. Does it matter what type of exercise you are doing as it pertains to the mitochondria adaptions? Is it as simple as mitochondria doesn’t care what your doing…all about heart rate. As example, if I’m indoors doing a long zone 2 on elliptical or long zone 2 run outside? I’ve never gotten a clear answer on this. To go a step further, are some exercises better for mitochondria development?
No, he specifically says in the interview that zone two is different for everyone the only way for us to estimate it is by a talk test. Are you exercising walking etc. fast enough to be able to hold a conversation but it’s somewhat difficult? Then your end zone too he said there isn’t anyestimation like you mentioned, because zone two is different from everyone depending upon their fitness level
22:40 - 23:57 Aquiered mitochondria decay/dysfunction through lack of physical activity. Combined with an excessive amount of food. And too many carbohydrates, that is an explosive mixture leading to disease. I could be wrong but did Simone (24.08) leave out Dr. Millan's point about the carbohydrates?
Simon, what test can regular folks do to measure metabolic health and mitochondria health please? My idea is to take the test, add some zone 2 training in for 1 year.. And retest. Thanks in advance.
The most important thing is, how is your long duration endurance. If it improves, then your mitochondrial health improves. If your zone 2 workout is a brisk 60 minute walk, then a year later you can do it at a light run with the same effort, or the walk feels a lot easier, then your mitochondria are better. Aside from your performance, the closest to a regular test would be a lactate test, which will cost a couple hundred dollars. You go to a testing site, run or bike on their equipment, and every 5 minutes or so they test your lactate then ask you to bump up the effort a certain amount, you keep going until you're maxed out. They'll plot the measurements on a graph, you can see how much lactate shows up for how much power output. Preferably if you go to the same testing facility a year apart, you can compare the graphs/data and see how much you improved.
Super important what he said in 1:44:50, because people think HR up in his watch, they need to stop or walk... if you feel you can talk and HR is little higher on your watch, That Ok... You are in Zone2 Yet. Good Interview
Hi Simon, I'm a big fan of the podcast! I listen to you, Gil, and Chris almost every time you release a podcast/episode. One question about this podcast: I'm an recreational ultramarathon runner, and everyone in this sport consumes carbohydrates for fuel - almost exclusively. And generally speaking, unless you're an elite level runner, the majority of your run will be in zone 2. If fat is the preffered macro on a metabolic level - why then isn't fat the preferred macro for ultra running? Thanks for everything you do! Senya
Would of expected he would of said creatine when you asked about supplements. Be good to have dived into the food part more, when and what to eat to optimise zone 2 training. Great episode as always.
Great listen! I bought a treadmill specifically for JUST Z2 and have yet to use it for that. Oddly enough, I now enjoy hiking and run+walk on it as well as hiking bootcamp. Now I'm convinced I was right in the beginning and must incorporate Z2 into my workload. That many minutes will be unattainable though.
Hello, please, in the case of training in Z2, how much impact does the weather have, that is, on hot summer days, my heart rate is higher, should I lower the power or there is no impact due to the heat on the muscle fibers? Because no matter the heat, I can have a conversation even if my heart rate is higher than my Z2. If I keep my Z2 on power, will I be leaving my training Zone 2?
Simon, in your podcast with Paul Taylor last year, he recommended 1-2 30-min Zone 2 sessions per week (60 min) whereas Dr. Inigo recommends atound 300 minutes of Zone 2 cardio per week. Im quite confused. Is the latter more applicable to more athletes?
thx iñigo! tu trabajo es increible, pero quedaria enterrado si no lo compartieras! Thx for sharing your knowledge through podcast and new media, otherwise we wont be able to reach it and learn from it
Would you expect the use of stimulants to move the zone 2 range toward faster bpm’s? What might it mean if the talk test can be passed at 165-175 bpm’s with caffeine use? Without?
There's an important part from 2:19:02 to about 2:21:00. Simon asks if you're in zone 2 if you do maybe resistance training and your heart rate passes through the zone 2 range, it cumulatively counts as zone 2. Dr. San Millan basically says no it does not.
Heart rate applies as an approximate measure of zone 2 _only if it is done during continuous, steady aerobic exercise._ The zone 2 benefits come from the muscles working for a sustained time at an intensity that uses the mitochondria to burn the most fat. The heart rate is just a surrogate measurement of the important part- the muscles working continuously.
A panic attack or horror movie can put your heart rate to 130, but your muscles aren't doing work in the chair. And if you've been doing resistance training, your body is just catching up for several seconds of high intensity work, not supporting minutes of mitochondria-building medium light intensity work. As Dr. San Millan says at 2:20:07 "it's a recovery phase, it's not a metabolic phase". In both cases the heart rate is meaningless even if it is in "zone 2" because it doesn't represent that type of muscle activity.
When your muscles are working at a steady pace, warmed up/vasodilated, and calling for oxygen for several minutes straight, your heart will increase both speed and strength of contractions, and that's where heart rate actually means something, it can approximate what metabolic phase you're in because the heart rate comes from the metabolism itself. I've seen people make this mistake, if your watch/app says "zone 2" but you're just passing through instead of doing it for 10+ minutes, you're not really in zone 2 even if your pulse is.
From 2:10:00 to 2:10:30 (and earlier in this podcast I think) he seems to imply you can get zone 2 benefits at 30 minutes (maybe even 15 minutes at 2:05:30 because it takes that long to start up) but it's better to go 60 minutes or so continuously.
Yes, heart rate is more of a helpful correlate than an actual indicator of being in zone 2. The only reliable way of determining your zone 2 is to find out the maximum constant pace you can sustain for at least an hour (or better still, 2 hours) without getting tired, and then note what your heart rate was during that time and use that for later reference. It will likely take a few tries and is quite a boring process, but it's the only way to be sure.
@@AlexV-jh7ul I mostly agree on your comments. I do the same, watching my heart rate and seeing how it goes day to day, and it took several days to figure out at first. Generally it should be very consistent, with a good measure of intensity and consistent conditions. For me it's ±1 bpm at equal output, even week to week. It's easy to gauge indoors, much harder with different outdoor routes on wind and hilly terrain. When fitness improves, the number goes down.
Dr. San Millan says in other podcasts (but I don't think in this one) that lactate is strongly correlated to heart rate. I think this can be used to determine zone 3. Since zone 3 is where lactate starts to outpace the mitochondria and build up, then that's where your heart rate goes up also. For instance if I can keep it at 140 bpm for an hour at the same pace, but at 142 it suddenly climbs over 150 in 10 minutes despite a steady pace, then max zone 2 is the pace that produces 140-141. I'd gauge from this instead of "without getting tired" because I think it's possible to not feel too tired at a low zone 3 pace for over an hour, which is a little of a waste.
I don't know why Dr. San Millan left this out, I assume he knows it but maybe doesn't emphasize it because the people for whom it's relevant (e.g. top cyclists) are getting lactate tested directly anyway. For layfolk like me it's a great way to determine zone 2- the highest steady exercise you can go without your pulse starting to run away. (or I'm just wrong)
@@ErrantChordier Yeah, I guess the "getting tired" part can be a bit subjective and depend on one's fitness level. On the other hand, you're very unlikely to be able to sustain that higher zone 3 pace for 2 hours (rather than 1 hour) without getting completely exhausted - AFAIK even elite athletes can only do it for up to 90 minutes.
@@AlexV-jh7ul I think the 90 minutes is actually zone 4, at least how I define it. My working definition of zone 3 is- glycogen supply is the limiting factor and runs out before lactate climbs enough to cause acidosis, while zone 4 is the opposite- lactate builds up to acidosis levels before glycogen runs out. I like this definition because it's measurable and metabolically discrete, and generally seems to line up with how others categorize it.
"Elite" level marathon (
@@ErrantChordier I'm not too familiar with the topic of elite performance, are you saying that elite marathon runners spend the whole 2+ hours of a race in zone 3, or most of it in zone 3 and then switch to zone 4 once the lactate is built up?
I have been fortunate enough to have guidance from Dr. San Millan. I am not a professional athlete, but he treated me like I was! He genuinely cares about your success.
How is it you were guided by him? Did you go to his lab for testing?
LOVE this video.
I had breast cancer and got myself through it by cycling every day and five years later am still doing b that. (And running and swimming) Oncologist’s main advice:”exercise!!” So I did!
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:00 🤖 Introduction to metabolic health and exercise's impact
08:08 💡 Mitochondrial Function and Cardio-Metabolic Diseases
12:46 🧬 Metabolic Flexibility and its Significance
21:11 🔥 Factors Contributing to Metabolic Dysfunction
35:09 🍃 The Transition from Aerobic to Anaerobic
38:41 🧪 Mitochondrial Function and Zone 2
59:24 🔬 Lactate's Role in Cancer
01:00:06 🚴♂️ Training Strategies
01:08:27 🏃♀️ 80/20 Rule and Training Split
01:25:49 🍏 Diet and Metabolic Health in Primitive Populations
01:38:52 🏃♂️ Understanding Zone 2 Training and Its Significance
01:55:03 🧐 The Myth of the "Fat Burning Zone"
02:09:01 💪 Zone Two Training and Health Benefits
02:36:05 💡 Key Takeaways on Metabolic Health
Made with HARPA AI
Having listened to the whole thing I now feel like I’ve done a year at university ;-) Packed with information delivered in an unpatronising way. Perfect. 🎉
Great presentation. At 1hr 30:00 is a great reminder that the populations moving alot and eating 65-70% carbohydrates, 15-20% protein & 10-15% total fat intake. When fat is kept pretty low the insulin receptor sites wont be fat saturated. P.u.f.a.s now especially fried foods are I think one of the main reasons the receptors get altered/interference. Pure saturated fat from memory gets metabolised more instantly like mct oil. Its also why dling experiments with overfeeding subjects with 200cals a day of 90% cacao dark chocolate & organic coconut oil would have different metabolic outcome with 200cal of canola oil.
When pre Westernised Japanese ate lots of white rice and not too much fat alongside it they didnt get obese even on 300g+ carbs a day perhaps 60g fat and 120g protein example etc.
Now we take the same 300g carbs from daily Kfc and oreos and fatty icecreams say 200g of fat with the same 120g protein the massive increase in fat increased total caloric load plus was loaded with toxic oils which increase insulin resistance.
The information in this podcast is so helpful! I realize that I have been beating up my poor mitochondria with lots of extreme daily exercise, both cardio and resistance. Thank you so much, Simon and Inigo. You both are doing such a great service to people.
@TheProofWithSimonHill I found it very interesting that he defended a low carb diet as a tool to get your mitochondrial/metabolic health back on track! Going low carb has changed dramatically how I feel. As I continue to surpass my health goals it will be Interesting to start adding back in some healthy carbs and see how I feel. I also plan to start adding in more zone 2 training after watching this, along with the zone 4 that I have been typically doing to this point.
Thanks , up to the point. Good explanation about zone 2 which most talk about as if we know it. Also good explanation about lactate. He is a good humble scientist no inflated ballon bubbles ego which most speaker have super inflated ego and self wasting our valuable time to learn but always sell themselves in a market. Amazing high standard interview by both host and guest . Keep the high standard and don’t sink as others. People wants honesty, clarity, simplicity and down to the understanding of lay people. This comment from professional medical doctor who is the more I know and learn the more don’t know.
Wow, I was searching for zone 2 content so I could learn more about this and this was really the best and most helpful of all the videos I've watched. It truly makes a huge difference when you have an actual expert and researcher in the field, as well as a world-class interviewer (absolutely great questions!) than to have a somewhat knowledgeable TH-camr, but who doesn't go as often on TH-cam into this much depth. So thank you very much for this!
Outstanding work. If this content was only available in a book, I’d buy it instantly.
This is quite possibly the best of Simon's podcasts ever!! There are so many gems in this. Thank you both!!
Dr Inigo San Millan - WONDEFUL! WELL DONE SIMON HILL!
Zone 2 training is wonderful. At least 80% of my training is in zone 2 so at least over 10 hours a week. It’s so important for all skill levels.
10 hours is a bit extreme for health reasons alone. Are you training for something specific?
Their name is Marathon5151 so I'm guessing they could be training for a marathon 😅
@@GabrielBacon Currently training for the Marine Corps Marathon and getting my time under 2:35. I then have the Disney Marathon in January and will plan a few more for the spring. I run about 5-7 marathons a year on my quest to run all 50 states in under three hours.
@@GabrielBaconExtreme? I do 10-14 hours a week and I’m training for nothing but being in the present moment. However, if I want to compete in something I can, but how silly it is to “pay money” to compete in some endeavour to have someone pat you on your back and tell you “good job” or have a need to seek validation or worse motivation to do something.
It’s far more than wonderful. What he’s describing here is the holy grail of the most efficient training in the world and it’s awesome.
And yes, the person saying that your training may be extreme obviously did not see that you are at the level of an athlete. Nothing extreme about that. Your training is normative for a higher leveling of cardio health and performance.
46:59 “I’m not sure if I articulated that well”
That question was articulated exquisitely!! Doubt it could possibly have been articulated more specifically or more clearly…
I wish Inigo would write a book or article for those of us who aren't athletes. Put it all down in one place. His stuff is so great.
@@TheProofWithSimonHill The clear description of the talk test. I'd like to know more about the trade offs. I'm not interested in being an elite athlete. So if I do an extra hour a week in zone two what benefit does this get me?
@evanhadkins5532 the more you do, the more benefit you get.
@@evanhadkins5532you’ll get no benefit from that type of time in zone 2
He’s the best
@@MarkMetternichPhotographyLLC Thanks Mark
An amazing discussion. As a cclinician who utilizes VO2 testing in my cardiology practice, it has been exciting to incorporate the information gained from this test to help our patients in cardiac rehab and pulmonary rehab. I too have had questions about testing , benefits of zone, directed, exercise, supplements, etc. San Milan seem to keep saying “a great question“ because brother Hill kept asking great questions. Questions that I wanted to know or hear discussion about. Simply an excellent podcast. I subscribed :-)
Totally agree, better interview than the Peter Attia podcast
Have you seen improvements in LV EF? I'm 38, and for an unknown reason was found to be at 50%, Im not hypertensive, 110/60-124/77 range BP during the day, have a 0% calcium score, never had a heart attack. I don't understand why I'm borderline heart failure at this point.
I just found your channel and can't get enough of your videos. Very informative,. It looks like you aim to be as inclusive, thorough and impartial as possible. You also have the most insghtful guests. Top of their field. Thank you!
This is the best video with Inigo I've seen so far, thank you so much for the quality of the questions.
Simon you ask intelligent and well thought out questions and don’t ignore the basics either making these conversations extremely valuable. Cheers 👍🏼
He disproves so much of the “longevity expert” stuff with real science. Invaluable ❤
Damnn! You really brought San Millan! How amazing.
For Spanish metabolism adepts like me he is a legend.
@@TheProofWithSimonHill Oh man I'm loving it!
@@TheProofWithSimonHill Okay Simon, I've got some doubts for you guys if you ever get to meet again. Or you can make these questions to another person if you like.
1. Iñigo said that for teamsports athletes, the planification of training might be slightly different. I guess it is less Zone 2 focussed compared to athletes like swimmers or runners.. Is it because it isn't efficient for teams to dedicate their (sometimes limited) training time for the metabolic aspect when they have so much tactical and technical aspects to train + physical that is more focussed on strength and prevention programs? Would the athletes still benefit just as much of Zone 2 training time, maybe isolated from their teams training sessions? Is it that much benefitial, considering their kind of physical deployment (change of directions & rythms & sometimes long sprints, but still with a good amount of runs that aren't extremely explosive)?
2. Is it counterproductive for people that want to build another type of muscle fibers (such as, let's say, powerlifters), to train in Zone 2 and therefore develop more / differentiate their muscle more in a slowtwitch fashion?
3. Whenever an individual's respiratory system is compromised, would that compromise the utility of the 'talking test' to find the Zone 2 (/any other Zone) of that person? What would be the tips to avoid false results? Is there any adaptation to the test/ other tests that would work too without needing the lab exam?
Amazing questions, Simon! I've seen multiple interviews with Dr Inigo but for me this one was the best, simply because it came from someone who is not an MD or DO or interested in one aspect alone of his work.
I've been doing something approximating zone 2 trainings for about half a year and I can say my recovery from a hard Z4 or even Z5 is less than 5 minutes compared with last year when it would take me 15-20 minutes to recover. Now I have also a lactate meter to try to figure our where my Z2 is precisely, yet that depends also on how rested you are or how fatigued your muscles are, and Dr Inigo is bang on with the perceived exertion. It happened to me to be able to do Z2 at 200W in one day and on a different day after a hard bike session in weekend I was already at 2.4-2.5 mmol of lactate at the same power, yet it felt way harder.
Thank you for the great interview!
Can't wait for the second podcast with Inigo
This is the best interview with Dr. in Nico. Thank you Simon for asking so many intelligent, on the nose questions and to both of you for getting down to where the rubber meets the road in practical advice about training in zone two.
Just want to say thank you and kudos for this podcast/interview. The fact that you fully understand the science and were able to summarize things in layman’s terms made this so enjoyable. I’m listening a second time now and I’m sure I’ll listen several more times. Excellent content. ❤
I actually listened to your interview of Dr Stacy Sims before this one and now I'm a bit confused. She doesn't seem to be in favor of zone 2/moderate intensity cardio for women, especially that many hours a week. I don't know if this whole conversation only applies to men because the studies were done on men and excluded healthy premenopausal women as they often do, or what do you think Simon? Is this something that's gonna be covered in a future episode?
I'm about to watch this - my favourite type of podcast! First, I feel compelled to say that I think the host is the healthiest and most glowing person I've ever seen (and I'm 57!) He exudes health and wellbeing. Impressive!
I'm 11 weeks postpartum. I've found that walking with my now 15lb baby in the carrier keeps me in zone 2 (zone 3 up hill). One of the few times I get to listen to long form podcasts too. I'm really focusing on enjoying this time before he's too big to carry
Progressive overload as the little one gets bigger!
Please watch the weight of the baby and follow the chart . Also human breast milk is the best food for babies immune system in the future and microbiome. I am Obestetrician very conscious about my patients weight and their babies. Prevention of diseases is better than the cure. Health start in utero and type of delivery. Hope this is helpful, if not I apologise and sorry.
@@samieramohamed2467 I appreciate your concern but all is well here. I exclusively breast feed, baby's length is proportional to weight gain, and his pediatrician is happy.
@@RXP91Milo of Croton 😄
@@RXP91 that was hilarious to me
One of the best segments. Inspiring and genuine, authentic. Great contribution to the world, guys
Glad you enjoyed it
GREAT CONVERSATION. Best podcast i've ever watched on the subject. Dr Iñigo is so interesting and humble. And the questions were perfect. Congrats
Thank you for your time, Dr. Millan!!
A great human being mr. SAn Millan! We need more like him and also more of him. Thank you very much.
Thanks so much for that sensationell Podcast.Unbelievable to get al this Information for free…🙏☺️🙏
Phenomenal content ! Thank you Simon for your exquisite quality of content., your kindness and your style of interview. Dr San Milan is amazing Your podcasts with Dr Dayspring changed my husband’s health trajectory as we found a stellar lipidologist who walks the same line as Dr Dayspring and knows him . Much gratitude always !
Thanks! Much appreciated. At 2h11m when Inigo says you see "Metabolic Data" of fit people in their 60s who resemble people in their 30s, what data is he refereeing to? Can we infer metabolic fitness to some degree by basic blood testing which includes HbA1c, T cell ratios (immunity), lipid profile, liver and kidney function etc.?
Serum lactate concentration gives info on metabolic data.
Wow, this was a bang. Scientific background and practical application. Everything related to exercise hits the spot for me. I’m curious to learn more. And Simon, your qualities as a host are beyond excellent. Summarising, asking simple questions the listeners might have, challenging believes - you evolved so much.
A job well done! Your complementary comments and pertinent and clearly articulated questions culminated in an immensely valuable and practical guide \ manual for a healthy existence and, once again, brought out the very best of Inigo San Millan. Be well!
Your best guest ever🎉
No doubt about it, this live was a game change for me in any way that you can imagine. Thanks a lot for that.
Best podcast I’ve seen! Thx 🙏
Thanks for listening
Great discussion tying together many different fields of interest (biochemistry, metabolism, mitochondrial function, sports medicine, ICU recovery).
I deep dove into his publications last night.
Definitely a podcast to listen to multiple times.
Thank you for the update on the lactate shuttle.
Thank you guys for this. It is priceless. Your gratitude towards one another at the end of the video is wholesome. And you deserve the credits. You're changing lives with this content Simon, and Iñigo it is really admirable that you dedicate yourself to sharing your knowledge through the divulgators like Simon or Fissac in Spain, we're lucky to have access to such scientifical wisdom.
I've been taking notes and I think it was all very clear. If I ever have any doubt, I'll make sure I'll share them with you guys in case you meet again :)
Bless you!
I really am excited about getting into some of the Zone 2 training.
I remember Simon made an episode on this not so long ago and was constantly remembering myself I had to watch it but I never really made it. Now with Iñigo it was a must-watch. I'm sure I'll enjoy the hours of Zone 2 walking heheh
I’ve watched and rewatched most of the Zone 2 podcasts published. I have the theory down now but what would be really helpful is a short demonstration with Iñigo watching and commenting on the demonstration. Because the margin for error is relatively small (10 bpm) it would be good to see what he means by the ‘talk test’ indicator. Thanks for adding to this growing area of knowledge.
Check out some of the GCN videos with Inigo, as it’s described in more detail there.
I would be careful with HR as Z2 indicator. Switching from summer to autumn my HR is now easily 10 bpm lower just because of temp. LT1 is around upper Z2 is around VT1. VT being ventilatory threshold. It is basically where you start to breath deeper because of higher O2 demand. Talk test refer to that. You are still able to talk, but the other side would notice that you are exercising..
@@danb7808 I use a combination of indicators. At the moment the main one is the ‘talk test’ or what i believe it to be. Secondly, using a chest strap and the point just before the heart rate takes off and becomes out of control. So the heart rate is at its highest stable point, for me it’s around 115 bpm. The heart rate figure will increase over time so this needs to be remembered.
I’ve heard two slightly different descriptions of the ‘talk test’ and that’s why i’d like to see a demonstration. You really only need to be out a little on the talk test to be out of your zone 2 band, it’s a very narrow window.
Watching way too many videos and doing absolutely nothing about it, just watching videos. 10 bpm is definitely not a relatively small margin of error. I just made it smaller for you, get on bike and cycle 120-125 bpm. Ride in the morning upon waking when your resting heart rate is not raised from a whole day of sun, caffeine, stress, talking, thinking and emotional regulation. Learn how to control your thoughts and emotions to keep your bpm steady, keep your cadence high, don’t cheat with low cadence. Ride at least 3 times a week for 2 hours and once a week for 4 hours (in this ride you should see your bpm raise and it will be a test overtime of your bpm stability)
@@HigherInfluence Good you don‘t take a fixed HR rate. I never really did the talk test, but am slightly above where I need to breath deeper/faster.
Greetings Friends,
Which segment of our discussion struck you as the most compelling? I'd be delighted to read your thoughts. Additionally, if you've any related questions, kindly leave them in the comments. I'll make sure they're addressed in our forthcoming conversation.
Wonderfull and very interesting conversation - and I loved when he mentioned the core question: What causes the mitochondrial disfunction? And the important conclusion to improve mitochondrial numbers and Health is exercise - that just sounds as a very good message - keep moving moderate exercise is important for everybody
I haven't listened to this yet but I wanted to say thank you so much for this podcast!!
You have the best questions in the business!
Thank you, Simon, for such a wonderful, detailed, insightful session. It helped me to understand what actually Zone 2 means in terms of science and practical implications.
Glad you found it helpful!
Dr San Milan is very persuasive I have to say. But he is asking a lot. Not even Peter Attia in his Centenarian Decathlon asks so much of his patients in terms of time in Zone 2. He mentioned that sustainability in exercise and diet is important and everyone would agree. But wow! 600 minutes plus per week plus Zone 5 plus resistance training. Thank you Simon for exploring breaking it up into two 30 minute sessions. That seems much more sustainable especially if it is broken into two modalities to keep exercise interesting. Thank you as always for an informative and beneficial podcast.
I do between 600-840 minutes of zone 2 per week. If you do that much zone 2, you’ll realize the benefits overall much greater than the ones you are chasing. Wtf are two thirty minute modalities? That’s a joke in any type of endurance training. Most people are never able to make the sacrifices and handle the suffering needed for even the things the claim they want because keeping something “interesting” is more important. If that’s how weak your psychology is, then no offence but you need more zone 2 training. Put in the work or don’t.
Thank you for your opinion. I disagree. Exercise is never an all or nothing proposition. Something is always better than nothing. Pleased you are so mentally tough. Good for you.
@@jimpatek6244 You are free, free enough to make choices. Just don’t think there aren’t others making other choices. You see, you call it “exercise.” You do it for health benefits or for some goal, milestone in the exercise you are doing at which point you will feel some sort of validation. But remember, that we are spiritual beings having a human experience and in that 4th hour of one of my zone 2, non stop cycling rides, I am in the “present moment” with reality. There is no outside programmed belief or internal insecurities, conscious or subconscious that I am validating or chasing. I just am with reality and in 4 hours non stop, enough thoughts and emotions pass by and I observe them, not attach to them, let pass, it’s like active meditation and I feel no suffering because I can sit in the moment and experience it for what it is. The “exercise” or “health benefits” from Zone 2 cycling are simply shallow fodder and if that’s all you get out of it then it explains what you are after and your reasoning for it and thus you need to make a compromise and maybe devote more hours to something pleasurable because this seems painful to you. It’s not to me.
Great interview. You asked a lot of good questions. Thank you so much.
Glad you enjoyed it!
hey Simon, would you consider doing a follow up to this episode with Dr Stacy Sims? I have been listening to some of her recent content and, unless I have misunderstood, I think she has a perspective on zone 2 for women in the menopause transition, leading up to or post menopause. Her perspective is for women in this life stage to polarise their training - a focus on heaving lifting but then polarising this with sprint interval training and/or true HIIT. She discourages the moderate intensity cardio but I'm not sure if this extends to zone 2 also (not sure if she buckets these together)? I just wonder for women in the menopause transition who already have elevated cortisol, does zone 2 training for 150-300 mins a week exacerbate this and drive up other unwanted symptoms such as abdominal weight gain? Would be great to get her perspective. Thank you, great episode as always!
I was wondering the same thing!
Zone 2 is low intensity, not moderate. Perhaps Dr Sims was talking about a 3 zone model rather than a 5-6 zone model because the two get confused quite often.
I was wondering the same @richardmiddleton7770 however I have read some of her stuff and she talks about how women by the nature of XX chromosome are already born with more of the proteins within mitochondria for doing fatty acid metabolism. Women are also born with more ability to handle oxidative stress. She says women don’t have to spend hours and hours on Zone 2 trying to increase aerobic functionality. Women fuel differently, even before peri and post-menopause by the fact that women's bodies will rely on blood glucose and fatty acids and slightly tap into liver and muscle glycogen. And so the goal of Zone 2 is not to tap into that liver and muscle glycogen, it’s to really tap into the fatty acids. But according to Stacy Sims, women are already there. This was a transcript from a podcast she did. This is where I just question if the data shows the results for women and not just men bc according to Stacy Sims the protocol for women is different and it's very confusing trying to work out how to train.
If I understand correctly.. you shouldn’t do zone2 fasted? It’s best to eat before doing zone2 cardio
I wanted to ask a few questions hopefully future episodes could address:
- are the zone 2 mitochondrial adaptations present in every cell in the body? Or just the working muscle fibers? How do we measure this?
- what are some ways a persons metabolic health is measured clinically? How does a person know if they have poor metabolic health, other than the hallmarkers like HTN discussed at the beginning?
- how long does it take to see some benefits?
Thanks again for the fantastic podcast! I’m currently hoping to go to medical school, so these are incredibly informative and inspiring, and the clarity of both the issue and the solution inspire me to share this with others
I’ll reply with more questions in this thread:
-he said exercise is the only thing we know that improves mitochondrial function. Is he familiar with Dr Chris Palmers research, who discusses brain mitochondrial health in the context of psychiatric disorders? Dr palmer (who was on Huberman) believes a ketogenic diet improved mitochondrial health as well within the brain. I should note I am very skeptical of that, but am interested since my education isn’t really high enough to look at the science and agree/disagree yet
Would it be possible to do a master class episode on metabolic health? What are the numbers associated with how it worsens chronic illness outcomes, how is it precisely defined, and what numbers can we attach to the cellular processes? I’m not familiar with the physiology exactly, but is there a change in the net total ATP produced in the cells that have poor mitochondrial health? How about across the body?
It may also be neat to have a follow up episode (maybe with Layne Norton) on energy balance: how is energy balance defined, why should people care, how is it measured, what do imbalances look like. His five part fat loss series from about 5 years ago on TH-cam is also fascinating, so a recap on that may be useful within the discussion as well.
Do improvements in mitochondrial function lead to increases in day to day energy?
I suspect that zone 2 does lead to every cell’s mitochondrial function increasing, since it is an effective preventative measure for Alzheimer’s, and a hallmarker of Alzheimer’s is decreased mitochondrial function within the brain
Is this right?
Thank you both very much for producing this video and information. 🙏🙏🙏👍
Most welcome 😊
This was a really interesting topic, and you both were awesome at reviewing and summarizing the information. Thanks to both of you for sharing your time and expertise ❤
Amazing episode. Z2 has truly changed my life. Especially when it comes to the stresses of life. Thanks for going deep and scientific, gents. Truly wonderful.
This is the best nutrition video ever. Finally TRUTH I have watched so much garbage, lied to for decades. Thank you
Fantastic podcast !! Thank you so much for it, I am trying to understand better all aspects of metabolic health as part of my health goals and the info you got here helps me tons!! You asked the exact issues that are around my head and also made clear the complexity of the topic; now I got to get back to BIO 101 to remember the metabolic pathways 🤣 Thanks again and keep up with the good work!!
Just found this channel. I am now 61, have been running for several years, but now coming off a foot injury. Starting up again I decided on Zone 2 or low heart rate training (MAF). My maximum heart rate is 177bpm, MUCH higher than any calculations indicate for my age. Based on the “calculations” my max zone 2 is 140 hbm, however, on the conversation “test” that can be done up to 154 hpm. The 140 currently results in a lot of walking but not for the 154 so I continually wrestle with the correct zone 2 level for myself.
@@jimglenwright34 try 130 to 135 bpm for low heart rate exercise
I just finished watching this great episode. I really enjoyed the very practical questions you asked that we part-time athletes struggle with.
I just had one unanswered question related to the amount of exercise per week. As a triathlete we practice different muscle groups per activity. Can we add the time spent in different activities up to come to the 300 weekly minutes or is this time minimum set per activity discipline?
Amazing and awesome discussion. Answered so many questions. The interviewer did an awesome job and interviewee was of course par excellence!
After having listened to this excellent podcast, I have no choice but to subscribe to the channel.
Did I say ´excellent’? I meant mind blowing.
I have enjoyed this so much. Great content thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Inigo is amazing person and inovator helping millions of people. How does he measure improvements in mitochondrial function with zone 2 as mentioned in 49:40.
More watts while staying under the lactate threshold
Thanks Simon, eye-opening interview!
Although I've seen several other interviews to Iñigo before, this is the best ever!
Well done! Clearly, even if there were "free healthy lunch", it would never be as helpful as a "free zone-2 hour"!
Simon, please help me find your interview of Herman Pontzer. What is the title? I've read his book Burn and have watched multiple interviews with him and learn something new from every one. Thanks! Just found your channel and am becoming a subscriber 😊
@@TheProofWithSimonHill how do I get access to the audio?
Great conversation with Great questions. Just great. Thank you.
Our pleasure!
Loved this episode. I just happened to come across it. you asked excellent questions. I subscribed right away.
Thank you for another great interview, I always appreciate and look forward to your show. Greetings from Okinawa! 🌺
Today I went for a 5km run around 25min listening to you, did 23km on zone 2ish in 2h29 👌
Glad to hear him covering NMN, rapamycin and resveratrol at the end there as my opinion is starting to lean heavily in the direction of just leave all that sort of stuff alone. Also 300-600mins a week is going to take me ages to get too because my understanding was you should only increase your range or duration by a little bit at a time and I struggle to do the 150 per week
Fantastic. Dr Inigo San Millan is a world treasure for sure. That being said, i want to give a serious shout out to the job that you did here in summarizing and organizing (and editing) the scientific data so that we mortals can use it. So many people think that just getting the raw data from the scientist is best. I strongly disagree. I feel that in the last few moments of your interview, it is clear that Dr Inigo San Millan recognizes this fact as well. Keep up the good work. So many of my lingering questions were answered here.
Question: Where does protein and amino acids play in the Metabolic Map presented by Dr Inigo? ex: What happens if we substitute have of the daily carbs with more whey protein?
Thank you Simon, A great pod cast. One question I have is are the mitochondrial benefits from zone 2 training body wide or isolated, or concentrated only in those muscles that dominate the exercise?
well thought questions. A comprehensive session. Thank you .
Edit…touching on it at the 2:15:00 mark. Does it matter what type of exercise you are doing as it pertains to the mitochondria adaptions? Is it as simple as mitochondria doesn’t care what your doing…all about heart rate. As example, if I’m indoors doing a long zone 2 on elliptical or long zone 2 run outside? I’ve never gotten a clear answer on this.
To go a step further, are some exercises better for mitochondria development?
Insanely incredibly valuable information that everyone should know.
No, he specifically says in the interview that zone two is different for everyone the only way for us to estimate it is by a talk test. Are you exercising walking etc. fast enough to be able to hold a conversation but it’s somewhat difficult? Then your end zone too he said there isn’t anyestimation like you mentioned, because zone two is different from everyone depending upon their fitness level
It can’t get any better. Excellent interview , a very knowledgeable fascinating guest. Thank you Simon 🙏🏾🙏🏾
22:40 - 23:57 Aquiered mitochondria decay/dysfunction through lack of physical activity. Combined with an excessive amount of food. And too many carbohydrates, that is an explosive mixture leading to disease. I could be wrong but did Simone (24.08) leave out Dr. Millan's point about the carbohydrates?
That initial story was incredibly inspiring.
Simon, what test can regular folks do to measure metabolic health and mitochondria health please? My idea is to take the test, add some zone 2 training in for 1 year.. And retest. Thanks in advance.
The most important thing is, how is your long duration endurance. If it improves, then your mitochondrial health improves. If your zone 2 workout is a brisk 60 minute walk, then a year later you can do it at a light run with the same effort, or the walk feels a lot easier, then your mitochondria are better.
Aside from your performance, the closest to a regular test would be a lactate test, which will cost a couple hundred dollars. You go to a testing site, run or bike on their equipment, and every 5 minutes or so they test your lactate then ask you to bump up the effort a certain amount, you keep going until you're maxed out. They'll plot the measurements on a graph, you can see how much lactate shows up for how much power output. Preferably if you go to the same testing facility a year apart, you can compare the graphs/data and see how much you improved.
Super important what he said in 1:44:50, because people think HR up in his watch, they need to stop or walk... if you feel you can talk and HR is little higher on your watch, That Ok... You are in Zone2 Yet. Good Interview
Thank you so much. I should have watched this much sooner. But thanks again ❤
Feel like I've learned so much after this one!
very good set of questions. Amazing interview
Hi Simon,
I'm a big fan of the podcast! I listen to you, Gil, and Chris almost every time you release a podcast/episode. One question about this podcast:
I'm an recreational ultramarathon runner, and everyone in this sport consumes carbohydrates for fuel - almost exclusively. And generally speaking, unless you're an elite level runner, the majority of your run will be in zone 2. If fat is the preffered macro on a metabolic level - why then isn't fat the preferred macro for ultra running?
Thanks for everything you do!
Senya
Hey Simon im not sure if you have said what your macro split is and exercise routine? Have you shared that?
This was brilliant as always. I learned to much. Thank you to you both.
Would of expected he would of said creatine when you asked about supplements. Be good to have dived into the food part more, when and what to eat to optimise zone 2 training. Great episode as always.
Great stuff, loaded with infos. I swim 30min 4 days a week, now I know I need to bump it up to 60 min 😅❤
Brilliant !!!!!! Circulate widely....
You guys are gold! Thank you.
Great video- a lot of the questions that I’ve wondered about were addressed here.
Great listen! I bought a treadmill specifically for JUST Z2 and have yet to use it for that. Oddly enough, I now enjoy hiking and run+walk on it as well as hiking bootcamp. Now I'm convinced I was right in the beginning and must incorporate Z2 into my workload. That many minutes will be unattainable though.
Ok that is truly good stuff when directing immediatly to some parts of the video .. ❤
New subscriber here. loved this discussion. Thank you.
Hello, please, in the case of training in Z2, how much impact does the weather have, that is, on hot summer days, my heart rate is higher, should I lower the power or there is no impact due to the heat on the muscle fibers? Because no matter the heat, I can have a conversation even if my heart rate is higher than my Z2. If I keep my Z2 on power, will I be leaving my training Zone 2?
Fascinating discussion, lots of details and actionable information. 🎯🙏
Simon, in your podcast with Paul Taylor last year, he recommended 1-2 30-min Zone 2 sessions per week (60 min) whereas Dr. Inigo recommends atound 300 minutes of Zone 2 cardio per week. Im quite confused. Is the latter more applicable to more athletes?
thx iñigo! tu trabajo es increible, pero quedaria enterrado si no lo compartieras!
Thx for sharing your knowledge through podcast and new media, otherwise we wont be able to reach it and learn from it
Would you expect the use of stimulants to move the zone 2 range toward faster bpm’s? What might it mean if the talk test can be passed at 165-175 bpm’s with caffeine use? Without?