A friend once advised that his approach to recovery was to stop whatever activity (happened to be running) entirely until he felt like doing it again. As opposed to having a rigid schedule of rest days. Meaning the body knows when it’s time to get going again. Forget the schedule and listen to your body.
This is good advice. I'm a cyclist. I notice some days I just cant get myself to get kitted up and keep putting off riding. Those are the days I shoudlnt ride. The days I cant wait to get to the bike are when I have my best rides.
But if you’re not careful you have overcome psychological inertia. The longer the break the harder it is to get going again. After a couple of days I know I can go, but I will fight it mentally, but once I’m on the bike and I warm up I usually have plenty of energy.
This is good advice unless you're training for a specific race with an actual time goals. You need to slowly and progressively overload while including a variety of different runs/workouts to prepare you speed wise and injury wise. AKA discipline. If you just want to be generally fit though running whenever you feel like it is more enjoyable and completely fine
Since I started working out a year ago my HRV has improved, or at least shifted to higher, while I can also tell there is a correlation between stress, poor sleep and training with my HRV. So there is definitely something to it.
Yeah. Not sure what he's talking about. If you only use the overnight average to get an idea, then all the factors he was concerned with are controlled. It's been quite a good indicator for me on overtraining and early signs of illness.
I think hes saying the HRV can vary from uncontrolled factors for example: standing sitting talking excetera. Those factors can raise your heart rate. Therefore if you lay in bed and don't talk to anyone that day your HRV may look better but its not an accurate representation of your HRV just because your resting hr is lower than it was yesterday when maybe you worked all day.
@wardm4 That's what I'm getting at too. Any random reading can't be made much of but that average overnight HRV definitely correlates well to what I tend to do the day before or even accumulated lately. I've worn my Garmin 24/7 for a year now so have learnt a lot about my body, habits and how it affects my HRV. Eating late for instance will affect my HRV "negatively".
He's got problems with his definition of HRV. Like seemed to miss the importance of RR interval timing and stress. Seems to miss the fact that all over the EU and AUS they use HRV for a recovery metric, and seem to be doing pretty well with it. HRV has with out a doubt, and the Fins have all the data, can determine the effect of workload and appropriate recovery period.
"HRV is a sham" is really not accurate. He talks about respiration but my HRV is measured when I sleep. If I do breathing exercises HRV will be better, that's true.
As a teacher, I recognize the benefits of adequate recovery. During the school year, I am at the gym before 5 am to do an hour workout to make sure I still get to work on time. Over time, I feel my body break down from not getting as much sleep as I would like. During the summer, I am able to get much more sleep and spend more time doing recovery work, and I feel a significant difference.
I am right there with you. I coach football as well, so in the fall I’m lucky to get a 20-30 min workout in 3 times a week. Hope you have a great summer!
sleep is more important vs sport if one needs to chose. we r not in our 20ties anymore..)) i do gym 🏋️♂️ twice per week during lunch time and 3 times per week around 7 PM i do relaxing pilates/yoga/stretching to preparefor better sleep. nothing active after 8 pm
HRV is absolutely not a sham and this headline is destructive. I can map my HRV lows directly to periods of illness and injury, like a hand in a glove. If my HRV stays balanced I stick to my schedule, if it drops to unbalanced I back off. Calling it sham is ignorant.
@@PorchGardeningWithPassionyou could argue that ignoring a world leading expert who's written hundreds of papers on cardio variability "ignorant" Writing hundreds of papers and being employed by world class sports teams based off decades of leading scientific research is the opposite of ignorant. Scientists at his level don't have the confirmation biases that TH-cam commenters have.
He's talking about standardizing and weirdly enough in most of the cases people talk about one-time measuring in some stable conditions (like right after waking up). And I'm wondering why sleep HRV is not used as a metric as a more standard way (the way some sport watches do it). So I can see how both is true - impossible to give definitive standardized guidelines but at the same time possible to empirically come up with pretty good correlation which is good enough for practical use by specific person
I second this. I did a 100 mile ultra. ignored my dropping HRV that dropped coinciding with taper and it almost killed me. Some virus bloomed mid ultra and I got liver and kidney failure. I will NEVER ignore HRV again. If it drops when your on a taper. somethings up. youve got a virus. or something else is going on. HRV is 100% an excellent health marker. it maybe has limitations in fitness during hard training. but certainly isn NOT a ''sham''.
I have been using wrist based metric devices for several years to observe what happens when I do different activities for variable time periods. In regards to HRV I have observed that long term efforts (day after day after day, and for several hours on those days) will drive down my HRV. I will also subjectively feel fatigued all thru that time. A prolonged period of rest from those activities will result in higher HRV. When I do shorter (1 hour a day) activities even every day I find that my HRV can be maintained at a higher level for a longer period of time. Certain activities drive down my HRV over others. Weightlifting and HIIT will drive it down. So I have learned that the time honored principal of listening to my body by how I feel and using the hard day, easy day approach works. So when my wrist based device konks out I will probably just go back to wearing a regular watch and do what I always did an probably improve my mental health by doing so.
If you do daily moderate activities- multiple activities a day and stay in zone 2, switch up the activities: strength training, balance, low/high impact, endurance/fat burn. Eat well and sleep 9 a night-recovery is a massage, acupressure, ebath and anything more than that you are overtraining. #stayhydrated and don't fall for their traps. 1 hour a day(hard to find the time) in one event or 3 activities for and hour-no chance of overtraining, injury and the goals is to be consistent.
My Garmin watch tracks HRV overnight, it is used as a tool to track my sleep habits and show how I'm recovering while training by getting a good night's sleep, if I sleep poorly or don't get enough on consecutive nights it drops and my recovery time takes longer, so it's usefulness for me is making sure i keep it high by taking my sleep seriously.
I too have Garmin Watch but I also had a Whoop. I am skeptical on their accuracy. And, author in vid confirms. They suggest the best time to take HRV is as soon as you wake and your very still. I have done that using a different HRV monitor (can’t recall name at moment) but it was higher than Whoop and seemed to correlate closer to real life
@@anthonyantoine669 the problem with that is HRV falls during the day and into first couple of hours of sleep when we record majority of our deep sleep. Then as we near sunrise and later HRV increases only to then repeat cycle. Thats why measuring HRV is best at first 5 min after waking and when respiration is low.
@@peanutbutterpluto you are right I looked at the graph and it did rose dieing the night but the reading Garmin gives is an average I guess of the whole night then, like I said I just try to keep my score high by getting a good night's rest to recover properly and am able to run more days consecutively, because before my sleep times were atrocious 😂😂
Gosh, at my age (71) I'm just happy that I can sustain a run for two hours. My resting HR can drop to 46 bpm now. Getting my HR up beyond 140 is difficult. On one run my Garmin congratulated me when I hit 170bpm. That hasn't happened again since. Thanks for sharing all that skinny!
Love that you see and seize the opportunity to have someone explain more (like with the zones) it's great interviewing. You deliver as a subject matter expert in other videos, and when you interview you let others speak and ask good questions. Not everyone does both well.
I completely disagree with HRV's usefulness interpretation. If one performs a test once a day, for 10 min., just immediately after a night's sleep, in the long run, one gets an exact graph of HRV changes. Which precisely reflects the dynamics of sympathic - parasympathic balance. A highly valuable tool for recovery, performance, and health monitoring.
Dr Levine is a world class professional in exercise physiology and has exemplary experience studying the biology of metabolism and HRV at the absolute highest level. Try reading the hundreds of papers he's written on cardio variability. You're likely using years old debunked science. As the Dr said "the science isn't there", it's a mess to control all vagus interactions in general lab conditions. Everything else is just marketing and hype. He's not a hack physician.
While this stuff is important for elite athletes it way over complicates things for us average folks. And can become a barrier. All one needs to do is alternate between an intensity day and however many low intensity days needed to recover. You can use the morning waking heart rate if you want or just listen to your body. If you want to save time you can have your strength training take care of the intensity (zone 4/5).
@@brum293 The less you rest the more you get. Doing your strength training w/ little or no rest will give you strength and cardio. The less rest the more intense. This also greatly shortens workout time.
Dr. Benjamin Levine. His knowledge of the heart and how it adapts to athletic challenge (among other things) is immense. I really encourage you to listen to the full interview: th-cam.com/video/qMs145DJyb0/w-d-xo.html Show notes here: www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/benjamin-levine
Amen to the HRV thing. Ive seen correlation with actual feeling ant fitness and recovery, or lack thereof during times of stress and whatnot. On the flipside its also been way off from the ground truth of my body. Not to mention if you eat later in the evening and its measuring during sleep itll be off from other times. I find it fun to look at but have found the resting HR seems to be a better indicator for myslef or trining and fatigue or illness
i do 2 days per week strong workout/weights in a gym and 3 times per week relaxing trainings like yoga/pilates/stretching and 1 day per week padel they compliment each other perfectly
That is so nice to hear about HRV. I was concerned that mine was low, though i have low max HR and get plenty of cardio. Thank you for sussing this out, Rhonda!
I thought the point of HRV as measured by Garmin watches (can't speak to what other manufacturers do) is it is measured during sleep hours when you're not moving and breathing is presumably more steady, and they track changes over long periods of time vs. one point reading under controlled conditions. So sure short measurements may show a lot of jitter but long measurements can compute a mean that will smooth out the jitter. Again I don't know what other watches or devices do - if they take one short measurement I understand how it could be pretty random.
I literally have zero qualifications on the subject, but thats what I was led to believe too. clearly if youre running around all day its going to be hard to measure
I went through a year if constantly getting viral chest infections. I used a whoop at the time. My HRV always increased leading up to the infection. It got to the stage I knew I was in for a cold etc.
My RHR is usually 50, which is good, especially sleeping at moderate altitude. But my HRV is always VERY LOW…40’s or even 30’s. Which makes it seem I’m very unhealthy and over trained. Since getting my garmin watch 5 month ago this is the metric I can’t seem to improve. I’m in my 30’s and exercise 5-6 days a week (weights and cycle)
I have exactly the same. I do fairly intense spinning/indoor bike 4 times a week and some weightlifting. My RHR is always between 40 and 50 but my HRV flip flops around from 35 to 100+ (sometimes around 20 if I've been at a nightclub lol) but it never seems to correlate to anything that's actually noticeable to me. Sometimes it's super low and I feel great. Sometimes it's over 100 and I feel sluggish on the bike. I mostly dont bother paying attention to it
@styxxmixx Do you eat within a couple hours of sleep, work out in the late afternoon/evening, regularly get less than 7 hr sleep? These are patterns I find difficult to get out of & I believe result in Garmin HRV low 40s or sometimes high 30s. My HRV went to 50/60s when I took vacation
I’ve repeatedly noticed that when I do less, and add way more recovery than I think I need, I improve far more…how weird that it doesn’t FEEL like a relief to learn that…
HRV needs to be measured in a consistent fashion. For example, first thing in the morning when just waking up and before getting out of bed and respiratory rate and heart rate are still steady. Then it has some meaning of whether one has recovered or not from a workout.
5k in zone 5 at VO2max is probably for the Pro's and very serious runners out there. I can't imagine a recreational amateur runner doing an entire 5k in zone 5.
VO2Max is probably down in Z4 if you can't run 5k in Z5, depending on how you organize zones. If you started to train seriously from now , through the winter, and into next year, you'd be racing a 5k in Z5 in the two Falls from now.
@@Yurkevich22 What I am saying is.. this guy may be a physiologist, but like most if them, he really does not understand the sport. VO2Max pace for me is closer to a 3k pace, not 5k, and you don't have to be a serious runner to condition yourself to run in Z5 for 20-25 minutes or however long it would take you. The pain and hyperventilating you imagine based on previous experience happens from a lack of fitness that goes away pretty fast. You will be running at a pretty high HR, breathing nasally, in about a year or so of regular training. My only advice here is to spend a solid six months at least running slow to build a proper base and then slowly add in high intensity until the high intensity is about 10-20% of your volume. That slow running is what will improve gas exchange in muscles, mitochondria, and ultimately your ability to burn oxygen and fat. You pooped out before because your aerobic system likely is weak and your anaerobic system was trying to do all the work -- for like 25 minutes. Go to any fun run and you will see people essentially doing what for them is sprinting until they crash.
The point about standardisation is well made and this is how the Whoop was designed. They were looking for the most accurate way of measuring HRV WITHOUT all the influencing factors and found that it is best measured during deep sleep. So, they realised they need to design a device that tracks sleep and can tell when you are in deep sleep as this is when HRV is being measured during the night. And this is what the recovery score is mainly based on.
@@MMAneuver Good question - I didn’t trust the Whoop measurements at first. I got a second Whoop device with a trial account, so got two measurements from different parts of my body and they were very similar - I did that for a month. Then, still not quite satisfied I checked my HRV in the mornings for a month using a Polar H10 connected to a different app and again the data were similar enough. So, I know this is n=1 but for me it works and I feel the data I get from my Whoop are reliable.
@@boudoir00getting two different whoops and getting a similar reading only shows consistency of their sensor. You could be getting two incorrect readings or two correct readings. Which one is it??
The two Whoop devices showed that they don't give some random readings and that it doesn't really matter where I wear it on my body. That the readings themselves were not incorrect was checked against a Polar H10.
@boudoir00 being accurate to tell what heart rate zone you're for exercise might not be accurate enough to properly record beat to beat intervals (hrv) is my point, nor sleep stage tracking.
Mind: Blown. But he explanation confirms what I suspected anecdotally, that there are days where my WHOOP tells me my HRV is in the tank, but I’ll go smash a ride better than a day where my HRV was really high. I guess the takeaway is that it should be watched as a trend and not a daily indicator of fitness.
exactly. in my humble opinion, HRV should be (rather always) taken with a grain of salt, but also looked at as a trend or average over time. Garmin does it via overnight average, then by weekly average as well. I find that does a good job at capturing your full picture of stress, fatigue, and illness. I can usually telll by my HRV when im about to get sick before I notice physical symptoms. But im consistent with sleeping with my watch and have been for a long time so there's an assload of data points to go from. If I were to just randomely snapshopt my HRV during sleep or day time...thad be useless haha
Has he not tried using Garmin HRV? I mean he should at least give it a go before writing it off. It measures HRV only when you're sleeping eliminating a lot of variables he discussed.
Clickbait title. The claim that HRV is a sham is grotesque. Garmin and other devices provides HRV numbers at night only precisely to avoid the operational issues he is referring to (he doesn't seem to be aware of it). Correlation between HRV and sleep quality in particular is astonishingly high.
You are missing the point. HRV has to be looked at in relative value. Not absolute. My own HRV has relatively low absolute value (around 35) and yet I have high quality sleep. There are a couple of studies out there that have attempted to demonstrate a correlation between longevity and high HRV absolute value, I don't think any is very convincing (but again, that isn't the point).
@@jrkob1156ok but if there's a correlation between HRV and sleep quality and Brian Johnson's HRV is low and sleep quality high, and focuses on quality in all other areas of his life, why is his HRV low?
@@Steve-ArfArf I don't know and I am not even convinced it matters. If there is clinical/medical evidence that absolute value of HRV matters, I haven't seen it. What matters is his overnight HRV vs his HRV baseline. As far as I'm concerned, my HRV baseline is 30 to 35. On those nights I got 35, I feel well rested. On those nights I got 30, I don't feel rested. I simplify, but the point is made. It correlates very well. I can also see it at my cardiovascular performance at the gym on the rowing machine in the morning (I'm a rower). (I don't think that looking at what a single individual - in particular a TH-camr ! - claims in order to try to make it a rule is good science. Better look at what happens in the general population, which the individual you refer to isn't).
HRV increases over time as fitness improves so you can do a load of endurance training, be really fatigued, but your HRV will actually increase. FWIW my HRV is higher and resting HR is lower if I go low carb and stop eating 4 hours before bed. This is from my Oura ring which I've used for 4 years.
Love my oura ring, five years for me! Endurance athletes are the outliers. Everyone else has paltry VO2 max and is more affected by stressful movements, like prolonged yardwork or walking up stairs. Now imagine allergy season, stressful work life, and a partner giving you the third degree. All that stress affects your heart rate and your breathing. HRV is going to be a mess. I don't even look at HRV anymore. But I hope we can get to the point of dialing it in soon
@ 11:00, 0.1Hz is 10 seconds per cycle. he just got the units flipped. easy to do, just wanted to clarify. Hz is cycles per second. 1/Hz is seconds per cycle. When you study acoustics, the units are bonkers.
70 yo……… I do a variety of aerobic training using more or less musculature….. From running roads, trails, steep hill repeats, cycling, cycling intervals, rowing and rucking with weighted pack!!! I also strength train every third day…… Resting HR is 43ish bpm……… doing zone 5 intervals or steep hill repeats my hr will level off at about 156-158……….. example yesterday rode my bike trainer for 1 hr during which time I threw in 8 x 90 sec sprints at a 155 hr with 2 min easy riding between reps…….. after getting off bike took 5 min recovery before getting on the concept2 rower and rowing at a 132 hr for 2,000 mts then added 6x1 min intervals before cooling down for 10 min……. After a 5 min recovery got on treadmill to extend aerobic work by walking at 8% incline and 3.8 mph for another 30 min at which time the body was in a comfort zone and 125 hr………. Total cardio respiratory workout of 110 minutes.
I completely disagree re HRV. For me it’s a great predictor of when I’m getting sick and when I’m recovering. I spent a week in hospital with pleurisy and the graph of my HRV 100% reflected my health. I showed it to my GP. She was shocked.
This is interesting, I'm a former career Soldier, by the nature of my job it was essential to keep fit, at time I would train twice a day when time permits, I've experienced complete burn outs at least once a year and had to start from scratch again. Now 57, after 14 years of alcoholism I've starting to train again, it's hard going however it getting there. I do 2 days on and 1 day off, and run and jog around a 4 mile course consisting of hill reps and recovery, my resting HR is now 45.
I had to stop paying any mind to the HRV on my watch (Stress) because I noticed that every time I drove a forklift it shot up to maximum - probably because I was sitting on top of an engine, and the vibrations messed it up.
Whenever I eat early, don’t drink, sleep early/long or do other correct things, my HRV is higher vs the times I don’t. It is clearly a correct indicator.
It seems like the Apple Watch might not be accurately tracking your HRV. From my observations, my HRV improves when I balance training and rest. When I train too hard, it goes down; if I rest enough, it goes up. However, if I rest too much, it also goes down. Additionally, when I'm sick, it plummets significantly. Garmin Forerunner 965, only taken off to charge and swap bracelets after running and swimming since June 9th/23
None of what he says matters if you just look at hrv during your sleep, he's either wrong or leaving out important details for why it's still not useful
maybe it's best to get the guest and host wearing monitors so they can hear how they and the other person sound on the recording (eg the table thumping from this guest or those who are too close or too far from mic)? Most humans will self-correct very quickly without a producer's help.
The areas mentioned in this video in relation to heart rate, don't they depend on age? Zone two is the same for 20 years as it is for 60 years. Thank you. Great channel. Greetings from Spain
I dont know about you guys but my normal avg daily hrv is about 60-70 and when i train hard or take little bit alcohol my hrv slams rock bottom. Training under 30 hrv is absolutely not possible for me and it takes 3-4 days come back up to normal levels. In this time i cannot run, swim or bike even close to my normal pace and i get super tired very fast
But don't people use HRV during sleep as a metric? A lot of the conditions he explains are not generally occurring during sleep where people have relatively stable cadence during restful periods. Over-training impacts sleep and so your HRV relative to some baseline (unique to you) could provide an indication for you to reflect on your own experience and training. Yes, external factors unrelated to training can also affect sleep/HRV, but you would understand what your measurement means to you. Earlier on in this segment, he suggests no hard and fast rules on threshold ranges. I'm not sure why we can't use no hard and fast rules on HRV and not assert its hoogabaloo-mumbo-jumbo because there are external factors to consider. Maybe there is nothing conclusive about the direct measurement or what absolute number is given to you, but diverging from some established baseline is always an indication of something, especially if the measurements are taken during restful states like sleep where you're in a relatively controlled environment.
I completely disagree with everything in this discussion. First off, strength training cannot be recovery training. Secondly HRV is the best general stress marker BECAUSE of how affected it is by many factors. I’ve been powerlifting and general fitness coaching for over a decade and HRV has been the most reliable metric for predicting peaking and performance in my athletes and every day folks. I can’t speak for other sports. Also to have 5 zones of cardio is extraordinarily specific to running. That large of a skew in nearly every other sport is too specific to be useful. We really need scientists who actually train hard lol because if you just wear a whoop and track HRV after every hard day of training, you’ll see how reliable the metric is. Academics are lost in data
Why is HRV reported as an absolute number rather than as a fraction of average time between beats. It is obvious than HRV is related to the actual heart rate and will in part decrease as people get fitter just due to the resting heart rate decreasing.
hmmm. he just said the muscles have to produce protein. I think he means the body has to produce muscle(which is made of protein) I know its a nit pick but it undermines his competency and can often show they don,t understand the topic as well as they claim to.
Actually osteoblasts and osteoclasts are producing+destructing=remodeling our bones all. of. the. time. So i imagine for muscles it's not that different ? ?? ? Muscles fibers are probably made in situ where they are going to be used. ?? No?? _ i don't remember that this was specified clearly in my animal physiology course ? So i don't know .
That’s really, really interesting. Do tell us more about your daily life and fill the emptiness. Did you have a nice breakfast as well? And what about the weather where you are?
My HRV doesn't change much even when I'm exercising intensely back to back to back days. However, one night of 3+ drinks and it drops. My Garmin tells me to focus on recovery, so it leads me to believe HRV is correlated with sleep quality more so than recovery from intense workouts.
Completely disagree. I was sick twice in the last year. Both of the times I woke up with slight sore throat and both times with an amazing recovery value (92%). Meaning even when I already had the first symptoms, Whoop didnt detect anything. Only when I already felt sick as hell Whoop did notice. Consequently the bodys feedback systems are WAY more accurate than Whoop.
@@dude861 well it works quite well for me. I feel off and it picks it up, though there’s not much you can do with that data other than to take it easy when there’s a drop (which you find from the sleep data). It’s not magic and it’s a shame it doesn’t work for you 🤷♂️
Would be interesting to dig more into the data about definitions, controllable variables, and outcomes with hrv, hr, or anything else. Intuitively, all the factors the impact hrv, as the guest discusses, also impact hr. so, i'm only left wanting more information from this. not convinced of one, the other, or some third, even better predictor which is easier to measure.
Yup. You can add resistance training to your longer efforts, to discover your necessary recovery day without the stress of believing you're not training hard enough. If you feel like totally flopping, you might be having a good rest day, but things like sunburn, crazy emotional experiences with unfriendly people, ALSO deplete your cellular anabolic activity. Remember, EVERY cell is CONSTANTLY involved with both catabolism and anabolism, day and night. As the speaker alluded in half a sentence, without sufficient emphasis, DON'T pverloead your emotional capacity. My alternately screaming and utterly inattentive parents modeled how destructive our alcohol/religion crazed society destroys both mental and physical abilities.
A friend of mine has a whoop & she drank heavily 1 night & her HRV went down dramatically & her RHR shot up so, it seems whoops HRV is relatively accurate
Hmmm… okay, and how about not concentrating on accuracy of the scopes and volumes (HRV) but compare them one to another. I think that the reason Garmin watches require us to wear them for at least three weeks.
Does Rhonda have any videos more particularly geared towards looking at developing VO2 max, which is supposedly a marker for longevity? I bring that up because I have read that the value of zone five is to some degree moderated by the baseline development of zone two. Can recovery be happening with consistent zone two?
When you've got a Compromised Immune System or an Auto-Immune it will take you far longer to recover, due to your Mitochondria already being damaged:-(
A REAL scientist reminds us, based on decades of research experience, to keep it simple...Use morning rest rate as your recovery indicator, not HRV. I'll listen to him.
@@JohnDoe-z2r You should have taken a rest day as soon as you saw that your morning HR was not back down to normal, and not done another session until it was.
@@Avianthro IIRC I had set my max RHR limits to: + 3% Over Last Month Average + 4.6% Over Last 3 Month Average + 6.25% Over Last Year Average And yet it took 12 days for it do drop down again under those limits.
@@JohnDoe-z2r I'm not the expert here, and so a question like yours, with its level of detail, is one better fielded by Dr. Levine himself. I'll only say this: I suspect that your limits are set too tight...probably more like 10% is more realistic...don't know what Dr' Levine would recommend. I wonder too what you were doing in your training when the RHR increased during those 12 days (Were you trying to make an increase in workload? Was it an increase bigger than 5% or so?), and what other things may have been happening in your life...extra general stressors? According to Dr. Levine's remarks in this video (around 3:12: to 3:40) , you should be cutting back on your sessions' workload and/or taking a day or so off, until it comes back down. Then, I guess you'd want to carefully return back to your normal workload before the RHR increase and not make any increases until your RHR has returned back to normal and stayed there for a week or so.
@@JohnDoe-z2r A few more thoughts: Ever tried the WHOOP recovery tool? Were there other signs that you may have been overtraining during that 12-day period? I wouldn't rely solely on HRH, but would also make the effort each day to assess my general energy level, take note of sleep pattern changes, muscle soreness of course, etc. I also would want to see an actual plot of your RHR over the last year to see if perhaps there was a downward trend over the past few months? Did your RHR go out of the limits you set for it for all (30-day-3-month, and year) time-period-averages or just perhaps for the 30-day average?
Anyone that knows even a little about HRV, knows you shouldn’t use your ‘Apple Watch’ and that the breathing will affect the result. Dr patrick should bring on someone from the HRV side to discuss.
I always thought it's a paradox that females have lower (considered as worse) HRV than males, especially affected by period , and yet women live longer and, due to higher exposure to hormones, they have better cardio vascular health before menopause (when hormone levels decrease).
He didn't convince me HRV is a scam, nor did he use those words. No slight on him though. These click bait titles are frustrating but I can see why even scientists feel they need to use them now.
I don't have anything in for HRV but it's almost always measured only in your deepest sleep. Whoop admits it came up with sleep tracking for this reason alone. So that's about as controlled in breathing and activity as you can get ... don't quite get the critique here
He doesn't understand hrv and doesnt want to admit that for ego or whatever. The clickbait title brought us all here to pile on the poor old fool. Sad.
Seems like he's mainly talking about cardiovascular training not strength training. Yes strength training raises your heart rate but only temporarily. But I'm not an expert.
One thing I've noticed about my garmin watch monitor, the Vo2 max indicator isn't that accurate. I've been on 41 since starting training 4 weeks ago, my split times have been quicker and my hill reps speed have got noticeably easier and it's not increased. However my fitness age has from 57 to 47..
I feel the headline "HRV is a shame" is too strong, especially the way it is measured with the Whoop strap which takes a measurement once per day while you are sleeping. HRV the way the Whoop strap does it, is I feel an 80% accurate indicator. And I'll give some examples to back it up below. My daughter is a D-1 college swimmer who has qualified for the Olympic trials and been to the NCAA championship meet. (i.e. about top 100 in the nation). She has used the Whoop strap and finds that it gives a pretty good indication of how she is doing EXCEPT during the end of the season taper. During the taper part of the season, her HRV seems to go low even though she is actually peaking. But in season, during the loading phase, it accurately is low when you have a lack of sleep or say drank alcohol at a college party, or are a little overtrained. Speaking from my own experience as a fit 57-year-old, who ran cross-country in college and has maintained fitness as I aged. I've been wearing the Whoop strap 24/7 for the past 2 years, and every morning I look at my HRV "recovery score". I would say 80% of the time it accurately reflects how I feel. When I'm sick it drops, when I've not been training for a while and am losing fitness it drops and most recently when I got a vaccination, it dropped. On days with is it below 20% it accurately reflects how I feel. From my personal experience, I would NOT call HRV as used by the Whoop strap a shame. I would call it an 80% of the time right / 20% of the time wrong, indicator.
Good info. I’ve been looking for a wearable that actually gives me the “real data”….not data converted into a “stress score” or some other fancy name. Garmin uses the stress score which I have found to be horribly unreliable in seeing any type of overtraining situation. It’s great to see the effect of alcohol on sleep. It’s great to see what is happening when you are sick. But trying to use it to tweak training? Pretty useless in my opinion. The resting heart rate after waking up is something I’ll start trying…..it’ll give me an earlier wake up call, but if it seems to be accurate, then no biggie. That’s the key….having a metric to decide if I need to adapt the day’s plan to something easy.
@@ta-da3054 I completely disagree about swim training using primitive training methods. Once you are with a top 10 or top 20 college and especially with an Olympic-level coach it is very advanced. In fact, I think other sports could learn from them. The interval training, lactic acid threshold training, and especially how they deal with tapering at the end of the season are very advanced. At the raw athletic level, I didn't see that level of thought with the more glamorous football or basketball team training. Regarding Whoop training metrics, I personally am happy with them at an 80/20 level for keeping fit, and I have 2 years of 24/7 metrics.
@@alansnyder8448 top programs will over train. Being from a top 1 school I can say bob is a great example of it. High volume training is only possible if your a world class kicker such as phelps and Leon. Herb on the other hand is changing the sprint game.
W.C.Fields was always my go-to-guy for work-outs and training...and seeing him here looking this good make me listen to his advise even more...:):):) Recovery is key...forget about the whole work-out routine, it's all about recovery...from that massive hang-over...preferably on a comfy bar stool...:):):) Long live W.C.Fields...Cheers, cheers, cheers, cheers, cheers...:):):)
His mic sounded terrible... Like there was compression or noise blocking, cutting off his voice all the time, and constantly increasing/decreasing his volume.
You could invite someone on to debate HRV with this gentleman, I regularly train with an RF breathing protocol, not for exercise recovery though. Poor choice of title, does not do your guest justice.
Is this indicating that, since HRV can be changed with breathing, it is worth to use breathing regularly to improve HRV in general? As e.g. the studies on breathing show it can lower blood pressure... Or just that HRV is not a good measure only?
HRV measurement Abandoned here. Way, way too many times telling me I should take it easy when it’s a day that would be normally used for working out. Haven’t missed it a bit.
One day it will warn of flu that you have no obvious symptoms of. You will train and have a heart attack that could gave bern avoided. But you followed your calender on the wall and didn't listen to your hrv. Muppet.
They measured that risk and accepted the failure rate. Same calculation used for falling ice damaging reentry tiles. Both acceptable risks via the project objectives. The secret? Saving lives was not the primary objective. There are no ejector seats on a space shuttle.
By his same logic a persons strength fluctuates +/- 10% day to day so is there no point in knowing the weights you put on a barbell or training at all?? nonsense... He probably had good intentions, but saying something contrary to consensus isn't always helpful (espcially if its just an opinion).
If you are obese, losing weight can be very dangerous. Most obese people eat 2-5x more food because the "food" they eat lacks, or is completely void, of nutrients. If you eat less food, then instead of getting the minerals/vitamins/protein etc, you need, from eating 5000 calories of "crap", then you will need to supplement so that your body gets what it needs (not brawndo BTW). If you go from say 5000 calories, to 2000 calories, but dont change your diet, you could have many other health issues. That is why Ozempic is potentially very dangerous, it makes you eat less. But as I said, if you do, you wont be getting all the vitamins/minerals etc, that you need. Fix your diet, exercise, sleep, reduce stress, and have some self control. If you are over 18, then you have no excuses for being obese.
Ever heard of living under poverty line ? Yeah people ''should'' eat the best they can but if you live in a food desert and you don't have a car, you rely on rice and beans , and boiled eggs, and probably should make your own bread with the flour you can buy and maybe make your own pickled cabbage and pickled oignons, and pickled carrots, and hope for the best.
Really good info. 5km in zone 5 sounds aggressive. Controlling variables for HRV is easy. Same time every day before getting out of bed. Breathe the same rate. Stay still. It doesnt need to be accurate. On average it definitely tracks and indicates lifestyle and training stress / balance, sleep trends and particularly alcohol impact. Keeps you true, so on that matter he's missed the point for the vast majority of amateurs and the general population. But great interview.
Watch the full episode here: th-cam.com/video/qMs145DJyb0/w-d-xo.html
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Watched this on 1.5x and it felt like normal speed.
Thank you! 1.25x sounded normal to me. 1x was intolerable.
👏
I was fine with normal speed, better for recovery! 😅
Thanks I am watching it at 1.25X and it is much better than the pondersome pacing it was on.
Thanks for the tip 😂
A friend once advised that his approach to recovery was to stop whatever activity (happened to be running) entirely until he felt like doing it again. As opposed to having a rigid schedule of rest days. Meaning the body knows when it’s time to get going again. Forget the schedule and listen to your body.
This is good advice. I'm a cyclist. I notice some days I just cant get myself to get kitted up and keep putting off riding. Those are the days I shoudlnt ride. The days I cant wait to get to the bike are when I have my best rides.
I do my best work on the days I don't feel like it then feel better afterwards..
But if you’re not careful you have overcome psychological inertia.
The longer the break the harder it is to get going again. After a couple of days I know I can go, but I will fight it mentally, but once I’m on the bike and I warm up I usually have plenty of energy.
This is good advice unless you're training for a specific race with an actual time goals. You need to slowly and progressively overload while including a variety of different runs/workouts to prepare you speed wise and injury wise. AKA discipline. If you just want to be generally fit though running whenever you feel like it is more enjoyable and completely fine
@@GrassFedKaofacts
Since I started working out a year ago my HRV has improved, or at least shifted to higher, while I can also tell there is a correlation between stress, poor sleep and training with my HRV. So there is definitely something to it.
Mine doubles on the weekend when my girlfriend sleeps in my bed with me.
Yeah. Not sure what he's talking about. If you only use the overnight average to get an idea, then all the factors he was concerned with are controlled. It's been quite a good indicator for me on overtraining and early signs of illness.
I think hes saying the HRV can vary from uncontrolled factors for example: standing sitting talking excetera. Those factors can raise your heart rate. Therefore if you lay in bed and don't talk to anyone that day your HRV may look better but its not an accurate representation of your HRV just because your resting hr is lower than it was yesterday when maybe you worked all day.
@wardm4 That's what I'm getting at too. Any random reading can't be made much of but that average overnight HRV definitely correlates well to what I tend to do the day before or even accumulated lately. I've worn my Garmin 24/7 for a year now so have learnt a lot about my body, habits and how it affects my HRV. Eating late for instance will affect my HRV "negatively".
@@SoyEltayou mean halves?!
He's got problems with his definition of HRV. Like seemed to miss the importance of RR interval timing and stress. Seems to miss the fact that all over the EU and AUS they use HRV for a recovery metric, and seem to be doing pretty well with it. HRV has with out a doubt, and the Fins have all the data, can determine the effect of workload and appropriate recovery period.
"HRV is a sham" is really not accurate. He talks about respiration but my HRV is measured when I sleep. If I do breathing exercises HRV will be better, that's true.
As a teacher, I recognize the benefits of adequate recovery. During the school year, I am at the gym before 5 am to do an hour workout to make sure I still get to work on time. Over time, I feel my body break down from not getting as much sleep as I would like. During the summer, I am able to get much more sleep and spend more time doing recovery work, and I feel a significant difference.
Gosh. Gosh. Gosh. Before 5 am?? Fuck. Fuck. Stop. For the love of god. Sleep enough. Youll kill urself
I am right there with you. I coach football as well, so in the fall I’m lucky to get a 20-30 min workout in 3 times a week. Hope you have a great summer!
yup and its always good to nap before a workout if u have that option as well. Makes a whole difference
sleep is more important vs sport if one needs to chose. we r not in our 20ties anymore..))
i do gym 🏋️♂️ twice per week during lunch time and 3 times per week around 7 PM i do relaxing pilates/yoga/stretching to preparefor better sleep.
nothing active after 8 pm
@@Sky10811 i think studies now show even active sport close to the sleep doesnt interfere with it
HRV is absolutely not a sham and this headline is destructive. I can map my HRV lows directly to periods of illness and injury, like a hand in a glove. If my HRV stays balanced I stick to my schedule, if it drops to unbalanced I back off. Calling it sham is ignorant.
Agreed
@@PorchGardeningWithPassionyou could argue that ignoring a world leading expert who's written hundreds of papers on cardio variability "ignorant"
Writing hundreds of papers and being employed by world class sports teams based off decades of leading scientific research is the opposite of ignorant.
Scientists at his level don't have the confirmation biases that TH-cam commenters have.
He's talking about standardizing and weirdly enough in most of the cases people talk about one-time measuring in some stable conditions (like right after waking up). And I'm wondering why sleep HRV is not used as a metric as a more standard way (the way some sport watches do it). So I can see how both is true - impossible to give definitive standardized guidelines but at the same time possible to empirically come up with pretty good correlation which is good enough for practical use by specific person
I second this. I did a 100 mile ultra. ignored my dropping HRV that dropped coinciding with taper and it almost killed me. Some virus bloomed mid ultra and I got liver and kidney failure. I will NEVER ignore HRV again. If it drops when your on a taper. somethings up. youve got a virus. or something else is going on. HRV is 100% an excellent health marker. it maybe has limitations in fitness during hard training. but certainly isn NOT a ''sham''.
Agree, his comments were very confusing given that he is undoubtedly an expert. Is he even talking about HRV as measured by Garmin etc?
I have been using wrist based metric devices for several years to observe what happens when I do different activities for variable time periods. In regards to HRV I have observed that long term efforts (day after day after day, and for several hours on those days) will drive down my HRV. I will also subjectively feel fatigued all thru that time. A prolonged period of rest from those activities will result in higher HRV. When I do shorter (1 hour a day) activities even every day I find that my HRV can be maintained at a higher level for a longer period of time. Certain activities drive down my HRV over others. Weightlifting and HIIT will drive it down. So I have learned that the time honored principal of listening to my body by how I feel and using the hard day, easy day approach works. So when my wrist based device konks out I will probably just go back to wearing a regular watch and do what I always did an probably improve my mental health by doing so.
If you do daily moderate activities- multiple activities a day and stay in zone 2, switch up the activities: strength training, balance, low/high impact, endurance/fat burn. Eat well and sleep 9 a night-recovery is a massage, acupressure, ebath and anything more than that you are overtraining. #stayhydrated and don't fall for their traps. 1 hour a day(hard to find the time) in one event or 3 activities for and hour-no chance of overtraining, injury and the goals is to be consistent.
My Garmin watch tracks HRV overnight, it is used as a tool to track my sleep habits and show how I'm recovering while training by getting a good night's sleep, if I sleep poorly or don't get enough on consecutive nights it drops and my recovery time takes longer, so it's usefulness for me is making sure i keep it high by taking my sleep seriously.
I too have Garmin Watch but I also had a Whoop. I am skeptical on their accuracy. And, author in vid confirms. They suggest the best time to take HRV is as soon as you wake and your very still. I have done that using a different HRV monitor (can’t recall name at moment) but it was higher than Whoop and seemed to correlate closer to real life
@@peanutbutterpluto I guess that's why Garmin checks it when asleep most likely while in deep sleep when you're most still so you don't have to.
@@anthonyantoine669 the problem with that is HRV falls during the day and into first couple of hours of sleep when we record majority of our deep sleep. Then as we near sunrise and later HRV increases only to then repeat cycle. Thats why measuring HRV is best at first 5 min after waking and when respiration is low.
@@peanutbutterpluto you are right I looked at the graph and it did rose dieing the night but the reading Garmin gives is an average I guess of the whole night then, like I said I just try to keep my score high by getting a good night's rest to recover properly and am able to run more days consecutively, because before my sleep times were atrocious 😂😂
As the doctor mentions, the best indicator is still your heart rate average . Resting rate and how long it takes to go back to normal
Gosh, at my age (71) I'm just happy that I can sustain a run for two hours. My resting HR can drop to 46 bpm now. Getting my HR up beyond 140 is difficult. On one run my Garmin congratulated me when I hit 170bpm. That hasn't happened again since. Thanks for sharing all that skinny!
You can run for 2 hours straight?!
😨
That is crazy I'm 19 and can barely jog 5 minutes at 150bpm
@@joshuaunderwood3019 I'm a wreck for two days though!
Your heart red line is 220-age=149 so don't push yourself beyond it. Train around 120 heart beats per minute. and as you age, you have to adjust that.
Great job! 👊🏻🌻👊🏻
Love that you see and seize the opportunity to have someone explain more (like with the zones) it's great interviewing. You deliver as a subject matter expert in other videos, and when you interview you let others speak and ask good questions. Not everyone does both well.
I completely disagree with HRV's usefulness interpretation. If one performs a test once a day, for 10 min., just immediately after a night's sleep, in the long run, one gets an exact graph of HRV changes. Which precisely reflects the dynamics of sympathic - parasympathic balance. A highly valuable tool for recovery, performance, and health monitoring.
Dr Levine is a world class professional in exercise physiology and has exemplary experience studying the biology of metabolism and HRV at the absolute highest level. Try reading the hundreds of papers he's written on cardio variability. You're likely using years old debunked science. As the Dr said "the science isn't there", it's a mess to control all vagus interactions in general lab conditions. Everything else is just marketing and hype.
He's not a hack physician.
Thank you for this video. I run three times per week, Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday and Sunday are recovery days.
Great interview - I love how you dont interrupt like Peter Attia!
editing hides that
That’s not Peter Attia. Lol!
@@laubachm11 wat
@@fhowland That guy is Dr. Benjamin Levine, Peter Attia is the young bald guy
@@GrassFedKao no one mistook this old man with peter attia, what are these comments about.
While this stuff is important for elite athletes it way over complicates things for us average folks. And can become a barrier. All one needs to do is alternate between an intensity day and however many low intensity days needed to recover. You can use the morning waking heart rate if you want or just listen to your body. If you want to save time you can have your strength training take care of the intensity (zone 4/5).
Can you explain what you mean in the last sentence, saving time by letting strength training take care of the intensity (zone 4/5)?
@@brum293 The less you rest the more you get. Doing your strength training w/ little or no rest will give you strength and cardio. The less rest the more intense. This also greatly shortens workout time.
Stay gold Rhonda.
I didn’t see this guys name, but he certainly knows his stuff
Dr. Benjamin Levine. His knowledge of the heart and how it adapts to athletic challenge (among other things) is immense. I really encourage you to listen to the full interview: th-cam.com/video/qMs145DJyb0/w-d-xo.html
Show notes here: www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/benjamin-levine
He is clueless about hrv..this video won't age well for him.
Amen to the HRV thing. Ive seen correlation with actual feeling ant fitness and recovery, or lack thereof during times of stress and whatnot. On the flipside its also been way off from the ground truth of my body. Not to mention if you eat later in the evening and its measuring during sleep itll be off from other times. I find it fun to look at but have found the resting HR seems to be a better indicator for myslef or trining and fatigue or illness
i do 2 days per week strong workout/weights in a gym and 3 times per week relaxing trainings like yoga/pilates/stretching and 1 day per week padel
they compliment each other perfectly
That is so nice to hear about HRV. I was concerned that mine was low, though i have low max HR and get plenty of cardio. Thank you for sussing this out, Rhonda!
I thought the point of HRV as measured by Garmin watches (can't speak to what other manufacturers do) is it is measured during sleep hours when you're not moving and breathing is presumably more steady, and they track changes over long periods of time vs. one point reading under controlled conditions. So sure short measurements may show a lot of jitter but long measurements can compute a mean that will smooth out the jitter. Again I don't know what other watches or devices do - if they take one short measurement I understand how it could be pretty random.
I literally have zero qualifications on the subject, but thats what I was led to believe too. clearly if youre running around all day its going to be hard to measure
I went through a year if constantly getting viral chest infections. I used a whoop at the time. My HRV always increased leading up to the infection. It got to the stage I knew I was in for a cold etc.
Yes. That's a huge point
This guy makes money training marathon runners. 3 people died on marathons this year. He is not interested in health.
@@user-pf5xq3lq8i More people died sitting too much on their ass
My RHR is usually 50, which is good, especially sleeping at moderate altitude. But my HRV is always VERY LOW…40’s or even 30’s. Which makes it seem I’m very unhealthy and over trained.
Since getting my garmin watch 5 month ago this is the metric I can’t seem to improve.
I’m in my 30’s and exercise 5-6 days a week (weights and cycle)
I have exactly the same. I do fairly intense spinning/indoor bike 4 times a week and some weightlifting. My RHR is always between 40 and 50 but my HRV flip flops around from 35 to 100+ (sometimes around 20 if I've been at a nightclub lol) but it never seems to correlate to anything that's actually noticeable to me. Sometimes it's super low and I feel great. Sometimes it's over 100 and I feel sluggish on the bike. I mostly dont bother paying attention to it
@styxxmixx Do you eat within a couple hours of sleep, work out in the late afternoon/evening, regularly get less than 7 hr sleep? These are patterns I find difficult to get out of & I believe result in Garmin HRV low 40s or sometimes high 30s. My HRV went to 50/60s when I took vacation
I’ve repeatedly noticed that when I do less, and add way more recovery than I think I need, I improve far more…how weird that it doesn’t FEEL like a relief to learn that…
look up Mike Mentzer. He explains this very well
Excellent explanation of zones for intense, mild and rest training! Thank you 😊
Good to hear as according to my HRV I'm a 36 year old senior citizen.
the most important is the tendency, not accuracy. and for that FitBit and other devices work perfectly
HRV needs to be measured in a consistent fashion. For example, first thing in the morning when just waking up and before getting out of bed and respiratory rate and heart rate are still steady. Then it has some meaning of whether one has recovered or not from a workout.
5k in zone 5 at VO2max is probably for the Pro's and very serious runners out there. I can't imagine a recreational amateur runner doing an entire 5k in zone 5.
yeah 15 min in Zone 5 seems impossible to me. My Zone 5 is 5-7 min max.
I can but im special
VO2Max is probably down in Z4 if you can't run 5k in Z5, depending on how you organize zones. If you started to train seriously from now , through the winter, and into next year, you'd be racing a 5k in Z5 in the two Falls from now.
@@noosphericaltarzan well yeah that's exactly what I said - it's for serious runners and pro athletes. But most of us aren't that.
@@Yurkevich22 What I am saying is.. this guy may be a physiologist, but like most if them, he really does not understand the sport. VO2Max pace for me is closer to a 3k pace, not 5k, and you don't have to be a serious runner to condition yourself to run in Z5 for 20-25 minutes or however long it would take you. The pain and hyperventilating you imagine based on previous experience happens from a lack of fitness that goes away pretty fast. You will be running at a pretty high HR, breathing nasally, in about a year or so of regular training. My only advice here is to spend a solid six months at least running slow to build a proper base and then slowly add in high intensity until the high intensity is about 10-20% of your volume. That slow running is what will improve gas exchange in muscles, mitochondria, and ultimately your ability to burn oxygen and fat. You pooped out before because your aerobic system likely is weak and your anaerobic system was trying to do all the work -- for like 25 minutes. Go to any fun run and you will see people essentially doing what for them is sprinting until they crash.
The point about standardisation is well made and this is how the Whoop was designed. They were looking for the most accurate way of measuring HRV WITHOUT all the influencing factors and found that it is best measured during deep sleep. So, they realised they need to design a device that tracks sleep and can tell when you are in deep sleep as this is when HRV is being measured during the night. And this is what the recovery score is mainly based on.
How reliable are optical hr sensors though?
@@MMAneuver Good question - I didn’t trust the Whoop measurements at first. I got a second Whoop device with a trial account, so got two measurements from different parts of my body and they were very similar - I did that for a month. Then, still not quite satisfied I checked my HRV in the mornings for a month using a Polar H10 connected to a different app and again the data were similar enough. So, I know this is n=1 but for me it works and I feel the data I get from my Whoop are reliable.
@@boudoir00getting two different whoops and getting a similar reading only shows consistency of their sensor. You could be getting two incorrect readings or two correct readings. Which one is it??
The two Whoop devices showed that they don't give some random readings and that it doesn't really matter where I wear it on my body. That the readings themselves were not incorrect was checked against a Polar H10.
@boudoir00 being accurate to tell what heart rate zone you're for exercise might not be accurate enough to properly record beat to beat intervals (hrv) is my point, nor sleep stage tracking.
Mind: Blown. But he explanation confirms what I suspected anecdotally, that there are days where my WHOOP tells me my HRV is in the tank, but I’ll go smash a ride better than a day where my HRV was really high. I guess the takeaway is that it should be watched as a trend and not a daily indicator of fitness.
daily HRV serves better as a gauge of what you SHOULD do instead of what you are capable of
exactly. in my humble opinion, HRV should be (rather always) taken with a grain of salt, but also looked at as a trend or average over time. Garmin does it via overnight average, then by weekly average as well. I find that does a good job at capturing your full picture of stress, fatigue, and illness. I can usually telll by my HRV when im about to get sick before I notice physical symptoms. But im consistent with sleeping with my watch and have been for a long time so there's an assload of data points to go from.
If I were to just randomely snapshopt my HRV during sleep or day time...thad be useless haha
Yeah this clown doesn't understand hrv.
Has he not tried using Garmin HRV? I mean he should at least give it a go before writing it off.
It measures HRV only when you're sleeping eliminating a lot of variables he discussed.
Clickbait title. The claim that HRV is a sham is grotesque. Garmin and other devices provides HRV numbers at night only precisely to avoid the operational issues he is referring to (he doesn't seem to be aware of it). Correlation between HRV and sleep quality in particular is astonishingly high.
Bryan Johnson has stubbornly low HRV yet has the best sleep score of anyone out there
You are missing the point. HRV has to be looked at in relative value. Not absolute. My own HRV has relatively low absolute value (around 35) and yet I have high quality sleep. There are a couple of studies out there that have attempted to demonstrate a correlation between longevity and high HRV absolute value, I don't think any is very convincing (but again, that isn't the point).
@@jrkob1156ok but if there's a correlation between HRV and sleep quality and Brian Johnson's HRV is low and sleep quality high, and focuses on quality in all other areas of his life, why is his HRV low?
@@Steve-ArfArf I don't know and I am not even convinced it matters. If there is clinical/medical evidence that absolute value of HRV matters, I haven't seen it. What matters is his overnight HRV vs his HRV baseline. As far as I'm concerned, my HRV baseline is 30 to 35. On those nights I got 35, I feel well rested. On those nights I got 30, I don't feel rested. I simplify, but the point is made. It correlates very well. I can also see it at my cardiovascular performance at the gym on the rowing machine in the morning (I'm a rower).
(I don't think that looking at what a single individual - in particular a TH-camr ! - claims in order to try to make it a rule is good science. Better look at what happens in the general population, which the individual you refer to isn't).
@@jrkob1156 ok I understand you now, that makes sense. So you need to find your personal optimal HRV and work off of that
This clears up a lot. I agree all of my fitness metrics have improved with training except HRV.
HRV increases over time as fitness improves so you can do a load of endurance training, be really fatigued, but your HRV will actually increase. FWIW my HRV is higher and resting HR is lower if I go low carb and stop eating 4 hours before bed. This is from my Oura ring which I've used for 4 years.
Love my oura ring, five years for me!
Endurance athletes are the outliers. Everyone else has paltry VO2 max and is more affected by stressful movements, like prolonged yardwork or walking up stairs. Now imagine allergy season, stressful work life, and a partner giving you the third degree. All that stress affects your heart rate and your breathing. HRV is going to be a mess.
I don't even look at HRV anymore. But I hope we can get to the point of dialing it in soon
@ 11:00, 0.1Hz is 10 seconds per cycle. he just got the units flipped. easy to do, just wanted to clarify. Hz is cycles per second. 1/Hz is seconds per cycle. When you study acoustics, the units are bonkers.
70 yo……… I do a variety of aerobic training using more or less musculature….. From running roads, trails, steep hill repeats, cycling, cycling intervals, rowing and rucking with weighted pack!!! I also strength train every third day…… Resting HR is 43ish bpm……… doing zone 5 intervals or steep hill repeats my hr will level off at about 156-158……….. example yesterday rode my bike trainer for 1 hr during which time I threw in 8 x 90 sec sprints at a 155 hr with 2 min easy riding between reps…….. after getting off bike took 5 min recovery before getting on the concept2 rower and rowing at a 132 hr for 2,000 mts then added 6x1 min intervals before cooling down for 10 min……. After a 5 min recovery got on treadmill to extend aerobic work by walking at 8% incline and 3.8 mph for another 30 min at which time the body was in a comfort zone and 125 hr………. Total cardio respiratory workout of 110 minutes.
I completely disagree re HRV. For me it’s a great predictor of when I’m getting sick and when I’m recovering. I spent a week in hospital with pleurisy and the graph of my HRV 100% reflected my health. I showed it to my GP. She was shocked.
This is interesting, I'm a former career Soldier, by the nature of my job it was essential to keep fit, at time I would train twice a day when time permits, I've experienced complete burn outs at least once a year and had to start from scratch again. Now 57, after 14 years of alcoholism I've starting to train again, it's hard going however it getting there. I do 2 days on and 1 day off, and run and jog around a 4 mile course consisting of hill reps and recovery, my resting HR is now 45.
I had to stop paying any mind to the HRV on my watch (Stress) because I noticed that every time I drove a forklift it shot up to maximum - probably because I was sitting on top of an engine, and the vibrations messed it up.
I appreciate that info regarding HRV. One less mythical target I have to strive for!
Whenever I eat early, don’t drink, sleep early/long or do other correct things, my HRV is higher vs the times I don’t. It is clearly a correct indicator.
It seems like the Apple Watch might not be accurately tracking your HRV. From my observations, my HRV improves when I balance training and rest. When I train too hard, it goes down; if I rest enough, it goes up. However, if I rest too much, it also goes down. Additionally, when I'm sick, it plummets significantly. Garmin Forerunner 965, only taken off to charge and swap bracelets after running and swimming since June 9th/23
I'm sure when we go into REM sleep, our heart rate has a lot of variability too.
None of what he says matters if you just look at hrv during your sleep, he's either wrong or leaving out important details for why it's still not useful
Peter Attia’s interview with Joel Jamieson was good about measuring hrv accurately/consistentky in order for it to be useful
You are correct. He is either misinforming us or very badly advised.
maybe it's best to get the guest and host wearing monitors so they can hear how they and the other person sound on the recording (eg the table thumping from this guest or those who are too close or too far from mic)? Most humans will self-correct very quickly without a producer's help.
Did they somewhere actually say what the actual indicator was? This gives true meaning to “in the weeds”
Morning resting HR.
Vo2max for a 5k is very different from what I’ve come to understand as a 5min effort.
The areas mentioned in this video in relation to heart rate, don't they depend on age? Zone two is the same for 20 years as it is for 60 years. Thank you. Great channel. Greetings from Spain
I dont know about you guys but my normal avg daily hrv is about 60-70 and when i train hard or take little bit alcohol my hrv slams rock bottom. Training under 30 hrv is absolutely not possible for me and it takes 3-4 days come back up to normal levels. In this time i cannot run, swim or bike even close to my normal pace and i get super tired very fast
But don't people use HRV during sleep as a metric? A lot of the conditions he explains are not generally occurring during sleep where people have relatively stable cadence during restful periods. Over-training impacts sleep and so your HRV relative to some baseline (unique to you) could provide an indication for you to reflect on your own experience and training. Yes, external factors unrelated to training can also affect sleep/HRV, but you would understand what your measurement means to you. Earlier on in this segment, he suggests no hard and fast rules on threshold ranges. I'm not sure why we can't use no hard and fast rules on HRV and not assert its hoogabaloo-mumbo-jumbo because there are external factors to consider. Maybe there is nothing conclusive about the direct measurement or what absolute number is given to you, but diverging from some established baseline is always an indication of something, especially if the measurements are taken during restful states like sleep where you're in a relatively controlled environment.
I completely disagree with everything in this discussion. First off, strength training cannot be recovery training. Secondly HRV is the best general stress marker BECAUSE of how affected it is by many factors. I’ve been powerlifting and general fitness coaching for over a decade and HRV has been the most reliable metric for predicting peaking and performance in my athletes and every day folks. I can’t speak for other sports.
Also to have 5 zones of cardio is extraordinarily specific to running. That large of a skew in nearly every other sport is too specific to be useful. We really need scientists who actually train hard lol because if you just wear a whoop and track HRV after every hard day of training, you’ll see how reliable the metric is. Academics are lost in data
Bro science: "we need scientists who train hard"
Bro science: 5 zones cardio “extraordinarily” specific to running. 😂
I wish he didn't lower his voice at the end of sentences. Very hard to hear.
Why is HRV reported as an absolute number rather than as a fraction of average time between beats. It is obvious than HRV is related to the actual heart rate and will in part decrease as people get fitter just due to the resting heart rate decreasing.
hmmm. he just said the muscles have to produce protein. I think he means the body has to produce muscle(which is made of protein) I know its a nit pick but it undermines his competency and can often show they don,t understand the topic as well as they claim to.
Actually osteoblasts and osteoclasts are producing+destructing=remodeling our bones all. of. the. time. So i imagine for muscles it's not that different ? ?? ? Muscles fibers are probably made in situ where they are going to be used. ?? No?? _ i don't remember that this was specified clearly in my animal physiology course ? So i don't know .
Today i took a recovery day…
Jacuzzi
Light bike ride
Massage
Nap
Now someone is just showing off
That’s really, really interesting. Do tell us more about your daily life and fill the emptiness. Did you have a nice breakfast as well? And what about the weather where you are?
@@paddyotoole2058why so salty?
@@paddyotoole2058
Steak 🥩 for lunch .)
@@paddyotoole2058
🌞
78
Live @ the beach
My HRV doesn't change much even when I'm exercising intensely back to back to back days. However, one night of 3+ drinks and it drops. My Garmin tells me to focus on recovery, so it leads me to believe HRV is correlated with sleep quality more so than recovery from intense workouts.
Whoop has been very accurate at predicting when I’m going to be sick. It’s impressive actually, you see the dip in recovery percentage.
Completely agree. It’s fantastic at showing you when you’re run down and about develop symptoms.
@@caseygiglio3373 the interface is great too. I use a Garmin for running and the whoop for health stats, though the Garmin UI is terrible 😂
I wonder if there's anything mental in that?
Completely disagree. I was sick twice in the last year. Both of the times I woke up with slight sore throat and both times with an amazing recovery value (92%). Meaning even when I already had the first symptoms, Whoop didnt detect anything. Only when I already felt sick as hell Whoop did notice. Consequently the bodys feedback systems are WAY more accurate than Whoop.
@@dude861 well it works quite well for me. I feel off and it picks it up, though there’s not much you can do with that data other than to take it easy when there’s a drop (which you find from the sleep data). It’s not magic and it’s a shame it doesn’t work for you 🤷♂️
Would be interesting to dig more into the data about definitions, controllable variables, and outcomes with hrv, hr, or anything else. Intuitively, all the factors the impact hrv, as the guest discusses, also impact hr. so, i'm only left wanting more information from this. not convinced of one, the other, or some third, even better predictor which is easier to measure.
strength training is not and cannot be recovery training.
Yup. You can add resistance training to your longer efforts, to discover your necessary recovery day without the stress of believing you're not training hard enough.
If you feel like totally flopping, you might be having a good rest day, but things like sunburn, crazy emotional experiences with unfriendly people, ALSO deplete your cellular anabolic activity.
Remember, EVERY cell is CONSTANTLY involved with both catabolism and anabolism, day and night.
As the speaker alluded in half a sentence, without sufficient emphasis, DON'T pverloead your emotional capacity.
My alternately screaming and utterly inattentive parents modeled how destructive our alcohol/religion crazed society destroys both mental and physical abilities.
For the cardio-respiratory system it can be recovery for sure.
Your legs don't care if do pushups.
It entirely depends in what you are strengthening. A full upper body workout is completely fine when youvare recovering from cycling...
These heart rates don’t have any relevance unless they’re tied to age and fitness
Im losing muscle mass and can't push hard in the gym at all for the last month. My HRV has been low for 5 weeks, wtf is going on?
A friend of mine has a whoop & she drank heavily 1 night & her HRV went down dramatically & her RHR shot up so, it seems whoops HRV is relatively accurate
Hmmm… okay, and how about not concentrating on accuracy of the scopes and volumes (HRV) but compare them one to another. I think that the reason Garmin watches require us to wear them for at least three weeks.
Does Rhonda have any videos more particularly geared towards looking at developing VO2 max, which is supposedly a marker for longevity? I bring that up because I have read that the value of zone five is to some degree moderated by the baseline development of zone two. Can recovery be happening with consistent zone two?
A fine line we walk.😊
Cheers
At 10:55, 0.1Hz is not 10 cycles per second. 10 cycles per second is 10Hz.
When you've got a Compromised Immune System or an Auto-Immune it will take you far longer to recover, due to your Mitochondria already being damaged:-(
A REAL scientist reminds us, based on decades of research experience, to keep it simple...Use morning rest rate as your recovery indicator, not HRV. I'll listen to him.
Last time I tried this, I ended up taking 12 days off working out because it just kept climbing, lol
I'll stick to HRV
@@JohnDoe-z2r You should have taken a rest day as soon as you saw that your morning HR was not back down to normal, and not done another session until it was.
@@Avianthro IIRC I had set my max RHR limits to:
+ 3% Over Last Month Average
+ 4.6% Over Last 3 Month Average
+ 6.25% Over Last Year Average
And yet it took 12 days for it do drop down again under those limits.
@@JohnDoe-z2r I'm not the expert here, and so a question like yours, with its level of detail, is one better fielded by Dr. Levine himself. I'll only say this: I suspect that your limits are set too tight...probably more like 10% is more realistic...don't know what Dr' Levine would recommend. I wonder too what you were doing in your training when the RHR increased during those 12 days (Were you trying to make an increase in workload? Was it an increase bigger than 5% or so?), and what other things may have been happening in your life...extra general stressors? According to Dr. Levine's remarks in this video (around 3:12: to 3:40) , you should be cutting back on your sessions' workload and/or taking a day or so off, until it comes back down. Then, I guess you'd want to carefully return back to your normal workload before the RHR increase and not make any increases until your RHR has returned back to normal and stayed there for a week or so.
@@JohnDoe-z2r A few more thoughts: Ever tried the WHOOP recovery tool? Were there other signs that you may have been overtraining during that 12-day period? I wouldn't rely solely on HRH, but would also make the effort each day to assess my general energy level, take note of sleep pattern changes, muscle soreness of course, etc. I also would want to see an actual plot of your RHR over the last year to see if perhaps there was a downward trend over the past few months? Did your RHR go out of the limits you set for it for all (30-day-3-month, and year) time-period-averages or just perhaps for the 30-day average?
Need to add time stamps please!
How does she impact these different zones?
Does he know that smart devices that one uses to measure HRV also measure breath frequency?
Anyone that knows even a little about HRV, knows you shouldn’t use your ‘Apple Watch’ and that the breathing will affect the result. Dr patrick should bring on someone from the HRV side to discuss.
Interesting and well presented. Thanks!
I always thought it's a paradox that females have lower (considered as worse) HRV than males, especially affected by period , and yet women live longer and, due to higher exposure to hormones, they have better cardio vascular health before menopause (when hormone levels decrease).
He didn't convince me HRV is a scam, nor did he use those words. No slight on him though. These click bait titles are frustrating but I can see why even scientists feel they need to use them now.
He said it is very difficult to measure it, therefore don't trust your watch
He doesn't understand hrv.
The clickbait title brought us all here to pile on the poor old fool. Sad day all round.
I don't have anything in for HRV but it's almost always measured only in your deepest sleep. Whoop admits it came up with sleep tracking for this reason alone. So that's about as controlled in breathing and activity as you can get ... don't quite get the critique here
He doesn't understand hrv and doesnt want to admit that for ego or whatever. The clickbait title brought us all here to pile on the poor old fool. Sad.
My HRV only improves if I take like a week off of training entirely. Seems like an unreliable metric until we learn more about it.
You don't understand what hrv is telling you.
Its not your fault you are dumb. Don't blame yourself.
Seems like he's mainly talking about cardiovascular training not strength training. Yes strength training raises your heart rate but only temporarily. But I'm not an expert.
One thing I've noticed about my garmin watch monitor, the Vo2 max indicator isn't that accurate. I've been on 41 since starting training 4 weeks ago, my split times have been quicker and my hill reps speed have got noticeably easier and it's not increased. However my fitness age has from 57 to 47..
You can run better with the same VO2 max if you run more efficient through training.
I feel the headline "HRV is a shame" is too strong, especially the way it is measured with the Whoop strap which takes a measurement once per day while you are sleeping. HRV the way the Whoop strap does it, is I feel an 80% accurate indicator. And I'll give some examples to back it up below.
My daughter is a D-1 college swimmer who has qualified for the Olympic trials and been to the NCAA championship meet. (i.e. about top 100 in the nation). She has used the Whoop strap and finds that it gives a pretty good indication of how she is doing EXCEPT during the end of the season taper. During the taper part of the season, her HRV seems to go low even though she is actually peaking.
But in season, during the loading phase, it accurately is low when you have a lack of sleep or say drank alcohol at a college party, or are a little overtrained.
Speaking from my own experience as a fit 57-year-old, who ran cross-country in college and has maintained fitness as I aged. I've been wearing the Whoop strap 24/7 for the past 2 years, and every morning I look at my HRV "recovery score". I would say 80% of the time it accurately reflects how I feel. When I'm sick it drops, when I've not been training for a while and am losing fitness it drops and most recently when I got a vaccination, it dropped. On days with is it below 20% it accurately reflects how I feel.
From my personal experience, I would NOT call HRV as used by the Whoop strap a shame. I would call it an 80% of the time right / 20% of the time wrong, indicator.
Good info.
I’ve been looking for a wearable that actually gives me the “real data”….not data converted into a “stress score” or some other fancy name. Garmin uses the stress score which I have found to be horribly unreliable in seeing any type of overtraining situation. It’s great to see the effect of alcohol on sleep. It’s great to see what is happening when you are sick. But trying to use it to tweak training? Pretty useless in my opinion. The resting heart rate after waking up is something I’ll start trying…..it’ll give me an earlier wake up call, but if it seems to be accurate, then no biggie. That’s the key….having a metric to decide if I need to adapt the day’s plan to something easy.
I thought that too. Especially as it's so highly regarded by Joel Jamieson who is himself an expert in this area
Whoop has poor tracking metrics and you and I both know swim training uses primitive training methods with little recovery sets
@@ta-da3054 I completely disagree about swim training using primitive training methods. Once you are with a top 10 or top 20 college and especially with an Olympic-level coach it is very advanced. In fact, I think other sports could learn from them.
The interval training, lactic acid threshold training, and especially how they deal with tapering at the end of the season are very advanced. At the raw athletic level, I didn't see that level of thought with the more glamorous football or basketball team training.
Regarding Whoop training metrics, I personally am happy with them at an 80/20 level for keeping fit, and I have 2 years of 24/7 metrics.
@@alansnyder8448 top programs will over train. Being from a top 1 school I can say bob is a great example of it. High volume training is only possible if your a world class kicker such as phelps and Leon. Herb on the other hand is changing the sprint game.
W.C.Fields was always my go-to-guy for work-outs and training...and seeing him here looking this good make me listen to his advise even more...:):):) Recovery is key...forget about the whole work-out routine, it's all about recovery...from that massive hang-over...preferably on a comfy bar stool...:):):) Long live W.C.Fields...Cheers, cheers, cheers, cheers, cheers...:):):)
Does this apply to strength athletes or is this mainly for endurance athletes?
Im guessing all
Neither.
His mic sounded terrible... Like there was compression or noise blocking, cutting off his voice all the time, and constantly increasing/decreasing his volume.
His diaphragmatic breathing is constricted.
He also applies pressure with his arms.
This is not a good sign..
You could invite someone on to debate HRV with this gentleman, I regularly train with an RF breathing protocol, not for exercise recovery though.
Poor choice of title, does not do your guest justice.
Where was it ever stated that HRV was an indicator of recovery?
Yes, this clown has embarrassed himself. He is not interested in health. Only performance of marathon runners. Ignore him.
Is this indicating that, since HRV can be changed with breathing, it is worth to use breathing regularly to improve HRV in general? As e.g. the studies on breathing show it can lower blood pressure... Or just that HRV is not a good measure only?
HRV measurement Abandoned here. Way, way too many times telling me I should take it easy when it’s a day that would be normally used for working out.
Haven’t missed it a bit.
One day it will warn of flu that you have no obvious symptoms of.
You will train and have a heart attack that could gave bern avoided. But you followed your calender on the wall and didn't listen to your hrv. Muppet.
So is it possible to reverse heart shrinking?
I thought Rhonda told people to Norwegian 4x4 intervals daily lol😊
I use Tai Chi for recovery. I think tai chi is under utilized by athletes as a tool of recovery.
I found it USELESS waste of time. Maybe for balance in last years of life but before that... Old fashioned BS
@@AndreyRubtsovRU It actually has good evidence for blood pressure lowering.
@@jozefwoo8079 fair enough
@@AndreyRubtsovRU I think that says a lot about you. Lol!
@@mountaingoattaichi i am so deeply wounded, mate
I like this guy.
NASA didn't think it was s sham.
NASA didn’t think failing solid rocket booster o-rings was a problem
They measured that risk and accepted the failure rate. Same calculation used for falling ice damaging reentry tiles.
Both acceptable risks via the project objectives.
The secret? Saving lives was not the primary objective. There are no ejector seats on a space shuttle.
By his same logic a persons strength fluctuates +/- 10% day to day so is there no point in knowing the weights you put on a barbell or training at all?? nonsense... He probably had good intentions, but saying something contrary to consensus isn't always helpful (espcially if its just an opinion).
Did he say the muscles have to produce protein...?
Yes. He should not be lecturing. Clickbait title brought us all here to demolish the poor old guy. Sad day for all concerned.
HA!.. here I thought I was way too simple by using my resting heart-rate.. turn's out I'm not retro, but ahead of the curve ;-)
Well, that's why HRV is measured when you sleep, no? No breath cheating
Exactly
I love a good rest day, feel so much better, but the 10 beers seems to not be working.
What about upper / lower splits
Dr Mike on the Rennaissance Periodization channel gets into recovery times splits etc in great detail.
If you are obese, losing weight can be very dangerous.
Most obese people eat 2-5x more food because the "food" they eat lacks, or is completely void, of nutrients.
If you eat less food, then instead of getting the minerals/vitamins/protein etc, you need, from eating 5000 calories of "crap", then you will need to supplement so that your body gets what it needs (not brawndo BTW).
If you go from say 5000 calories, to 2000 calories, but dont change your diet, you could have many other health issues.
That is why Ozempic is potentially very dangerous, it makes you eat less.
But as I said, if you do, you wont be getting all the vitamins/minerals etc, that you need.
Fix your diet, exercise, sleep, reduce stress, and have some self control.
If you are over 18, then you have no excuses for being obese.
Ever heard of living under poverty line ? Yeah people ''should'' eat the best they can but if you live in a food desert and you don't have a car,
you rely on rice and beans , and boiled eggs, and probably should make your own bread with the flour you can buy and maybe make your own pickled cabbage and pickled oignons, and pickled carrots, and hope for the best.
Really good info. 5km in zone 5 sounds aggressive.
Controlling variables for HRV is easy. Same time every day before getting out of bed. Breathe the same rate. Stay still. It doesnt need to be accurate. On average it definitely tracks and indicates lifestyle and training stress / balance, sleep trends and particularly alcohol impact.
Keeps you true, so on that matter he's missed the point for the vast majority of amateurs and the general population.
But great interview.
You did well until the last sentence.
@user-pf5xq3lq8i ha ha. Thank you. I found it thought provoking personally.