Whether it is traditional hymns or contemporary worship songs, my biggest gripe with worship leaders is that many seem to blur the line between leading worship and performing, as if they are the center of focus at a concert.
Amen. Song leaders that add or omit words displayed on-screen for the congregation are showing too much ego. Ones that add strong body gyrations can distract from the musical message. I think of vocal music in church as "sermons in song." The message can be delivered by beat and rhythm, melody line, and/or words. It's the message that counts, not the praise band member.
Despite my BA in music and years of being a traditional (Lutheran and Catholic) church organist, this was the clearest description I have ever seen. Thank you.
Well my friend, do you think we can praise the Lord using rock music and worldly styles of music? Remember the bible tells us, "Be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind"
@@jmsmckellar All music is "of the world" (aka worldly). Styles of music vary over time and by area of the world (culture). The style of music itself is neither good nor bad. The key is the spiritual message that the music (instrumental + voice) delivers to the hearers. A piece of spiritual music can be spiritually "dead" or "alive" no matter what its style is. A person's preference in religious music style often relates to their background -- what they are used to. Us "old fogies" often prefer traditional hymn styles, but that does not make them "better."
@@cyber4eyes766 Well I kind of have to agree with James on this one. I would argue a "Christian" song such as Bethel's Deep Cries Out should not be sung in church because of its flaws. The song is implying that the "Deep crying out" is God's love, but what David actually meant in the Psalms is his pain and sorrow. I would say a song that is said to praise God but is biblically inaccurate is not a correct way to praise God. For example, you shouldn't sing a song declaring that God will take away all pains and suffering from your life if you just believe, because this is a terrible message that is not backed up by scripture and will lead others to sing the song to believe what the song is saying and could lead them away from Christ. A song is a mini sermon, so if a song is teaching incorrect theology, it should not be sung.
My beef with contemporary worship songs is that there are so many of them. And everyone wants to write one, so there are more and more coming out every week. And then you have some worship leaders who hear a song on the radio, internet, CD, etc. and they want to get the congregation to sing the song, even though not every song that a band/group does is suited as a worship song, and they want to do it in the exact same style as the CD, radio, internet, etc., which is a great style when you listen to it, but not always conducive to singing in church. When we had hymn books, the number of songs were limited and people got to know the songs. These days, most people in church don't know all the words to all the songs. I have found real comfort in some of the hymns I grew up with due to circumstances in my life as of late. That's because I know the words, and they come rushing back to me. Just a few words or notes. You could also go from church to church and still feel comfortable because this body of hymns was fairly universal between churches, even though they used different books. I visited a church in Saskatoon recently and did not know one song that was sung. I was so focused on what the words were and what the tune was, that I could not properly worship that day. That's because the body of contemporary music we sing in our church is different than the body of contemporary music that church sings. Don't get me wrong. I like some of the newer music, but I wish I could get to know some of it as well as the hymns. I really like some of the hymns where musicians have incorporated different/modern instruments, changed the tempo, or some other subtle changes that give these old songs a more modern feel.
You should see my videos on song repertoire management and evaluating songs for congregations. Even a hymn book has too many songs for a single congregation to be familiar with all of them. We don't have to sing every song under the sun in our church services. Every church will have a blend of fresh and familiar that works best for them.
@@DavidWesley But at least when there's a hymnal, you know whether the next note will be higher or lower than the one you're singing *right now* whether or not you can read music. Being groove based may not be inherently bad, but I do think groove based music is more often misused. It's discouraging to sit through the "worship" part of a service when the music is so loud you can't hear the worship leader's singing because the instruments are too loud; it's not as though you have actual music as a reference. Then you look around and see that everyone has given up trying to sing along and the "worship" really is just a Christian music concert
David, thank you for a wonderfully fair, balanced, and Christ-centered analysis. You've helped me to see beyond the preconceptions that I've held regarding both hymns and contemporary music. I really enjoyed your singing and playing as you shared examples. This video is a great resource I will be sharing and visiting again. Very well done!
I love a church that uses both. I'm in my '70s and most my age want the old hymns and I understand that; I remember when I was young my parents hated this new music! Actually I remember how they got on board with the Beatles They liked The Beatles music! I love when a song uses parts from the older songs and the newer songs. Those really lift my heart! P.S. I love your videos! And congrats on that new baby!
I wish more churches, both traditional and contemporary, would use a blend of music styles. Many people enjoy food with varied flavors. Our spiritual music palate might delight in a blend of "flavors" among the varied songs sung. Perhaps adding a blend would ease "getting it" for varied styles. One can hope. :)
To me, the biggest issue with contemporary services (and now many traditional services) is that no one is reading the actual music. Once upon a time, folks could pretty much read because they were reading the melody as well as the harmonies. Using just lyrics has really screwed up music education as a whole. Church was where most folks got the basics. Now, even the ones leading don’t usually know how to read musical notation.
Fair enough. But in the grand scheme of church history, hymnals with notes on a staff was only in certain countries for a relatively short period of time. They were controversial to many at first, then accepted, then the norm. It's neither good nor bad that churches move away from this. Singing with projected lyrics and songs learned from the radio is still a step up from having to rely 100% on memory - like Christians in much of the world do (and everyone before the 18th century or so).
David Wesley I partially agree. However, it has been a major step backwards in American churches to do away with written music, in my opinion. Sure, New is often controversial; however, sometimes what was controversial and new turn out to be major assets, and sometimes they don’t. However, like I said, I believe it to be a step backwards. I don’t have anything against projecting the lyrics on the screen, but it is also possible to project the written music... especially in traditional and blended services. This is also one of the drawbacks of contemporary praise and worship music - that it’s not nearly notated like most traditional hymns. But there are several issues on both sides of the argument that I’ve learned as an organist, contemporary worship leader, and a minister of music. However, this is the one of the more glaring issues in the evolution of the church in my opinion.
You would need a very large projection screen to get words and music big enough to be seen by a large group of people! Contemporary worship songs are fully notated - lead/vocal sheets are available for just about every song I've led. But they end up being multiple pages long, because the song structures are generally more complicated than hymns - verses, choruses, pre-choruses, bridges, reprises. That's definitely not a step backward! The main reason why I think hymn books aren't terribly helpful any more is that you have to wait years and years for a publisher to decide what to include in the new book, and then you have to replace all your hymnbooks! Maybe if everyone could have the music sent to their smartphones...
David Wesley The step backwards is the non-use of written music. Also, most churches now that use screens have them often large enough to have a phrase at a time of notation also. Found a website today. The issue with notating contemporary music, while it’s widely available, it can be more difficult to read for a novice due to what is often times more complex rhythms and intervals that aren’t as simple as the usual hymn-like structures that are based on the eight or the quarter which would be what would make it more difficult.
Syncopated rhythms are indeed harder to notate and read. There is a great deal of syncopation in music from outside the European church tradition, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. So much of what we value in music depends on our culture and experiences. That's why I try reserve judgment about the suitability of music for anyone outside my own congregation.
This is so great and helpful. I’ve attended both hymn churches and contemporary churches. There are great songs in both styles (and also not so great ones). I’ve been a part of worship teams for 20 years and finally feel like I get the difference. 😆 It’s also helpful as I try to write worship songs. I think our worship team would have a very hard time being vocal led, but we’re also of a generation that was raised on folk rhythms.
I also find that when I play hymns on the guitar, I tend to change the timing a bit. Maybe I’m adding a little bit of a more familiar “groove”? Our worship team does this as well, which is a great way to bring in familiar songs.
David thank you so very much for your welcomed and timely explanation! You have given the Gold Standard!! It breaks my heart that most churches including ours has given way to GROOVY and those with bruised and heavy hearts don’t have anything to sing that they can recall an hour after the service…no melody driven music! It’s the Chinese-food analogy - you’re hungry and void in an hour! And certainly the JOY is totally lacking in our corporate worship! Let’s pray pastors will listen to this and take heed and action! God bless your ministry!
Very well produced video and explanation . Still prefer the hymns, much more theological weight. I am from the Dominican Republic and grew up as a Catholic listenimg to pop and latin music with no idea of worship songs . When I came to Christ the hymns were a revelation to me.
What a beautiful way of explaining the differences. You make great sense. I was driven here basically for the a capelas. Now I am attracted to the words as well. I also love the comments section. I have learned so much from the commenters, plus I have a feeling David that you read almost all of them.
This was very informative. I tend to enjoy older hymns as well as some of the newer contemporary music with expressiveness, and even southern gospel! What draws me to a song is how does it worship or glorify God, or how does it speak of the greatness of God. God is God and worthy of reverence and awe and not just our buddy. At least that’s how we feel. Thanks again for sharing all your harmonious melodies .
Great post, nice job keeping an objective tone throughout. I love hymns and contemporary songs, both. Hymns, to me, seem more inclusive of the congregation. Contemporary is more exclusive. You're right in that melody takes the back seat. Still, some of the best worship I've taken part in is contemporary. I'm taking a backseat and letting the music and the words and the talent of the band direct my attention to God. Hymns don't have the power and punch that contemporary music does. But on the other hand, hymns have history and nostalgia behind them. And let's face it, a good portion of hymns have rock solid doctrine. You said it best. These two styles are two sides of the same coin.
Great content, David! I hope this video is seen, and embraced, by thousands. I've been a church musician (instrumentalist) since I was 12 years old, sometimes choir director, sometimes worship leader. Keeping an open mind, and listening to people with different tastes in music is key to remembering that whatever style we sing or play is first and foremost for the glory of and enjoyment by God. I so wish church leadership would spend a couple of sermons a year (for example the way many do regarding tithing/stewardship) and teach about musical worship. That could go a long way toward closing the gap between people with different tastes, as well as simply helping people better understand how to (the 'mechanics' of) sing in one style or another. Your video would make a great first half of a 30 minute sermon. Maybe you should volunteer to preach one week next time your pastor takes a vacation. ;)
Actually my church has a series of guest speakers from amongst the congregation every summer. They meet for months with the pastor as a mentoring group and get loads of guidance and feedback. We've had individual sermons, even a series in worship in the last two years. My brother is the preacher in the family, though. I'm just a guy trying to share what I've learned!
I've learnt some new insights and key differences between hymns and contemporary worship songs through your examples. Understanding the differences is helpful for churches and musicians that are more accustomed to hymns adapting their styles to playing contemporary songs. Thanks for sharing :)
David, thank you while i am 73 and raised on hymms, i very much have gone over to the other side, I find that today's Christian Contemporary music is very more more engaging, helps make a worship service, I have seen "concerts" that became worship services with 3RD Day, Chris Tomlin, Hillside United, they all started as concerts, ended up being worship services,, I have not heard anyone under 50 say,,...boy i wish we would do Rock of Ages sometime soon. But might want to hear The Solid Rock when Medleyed with Cornerstone. If we are to reach the hope of the future, we need to fire up the youth to accept God, Accept Jesus and accept the ever changing church
I find that after attending my church's virtual live stream, I hunger for more music and often call up TH-cam and sing along with some. I invariably choose a mix of hymn adaptations, inspirational, and contemporary styles. Today I spent over an hour doing that. It really makes my Sunday!
Im 23 and one of the main things keeping me away from most churches is contemporary music. It’s just pop music, nothing unique. If I want that I can turn on the radio. Traditional hymns sung in congregation make me FEEL something. They are UNIQUE to any other type of music. My 21 year old girlfriend feels the same way. I want to hear the hymns I grew up with in a country baptist church, not mediocre pop/rock.
Thanks for this, David! My pastor asked me to take over worship leader duties with the caveat that I can do all the "new" stuff but keep some traditional songs as a large part of the congregation is over 60 years old. I am trying find a balance where we can incorporate these traditional hymns which are so impactful and full of biblical knowledge, but today's generation responds to a more "contemporary" style of worship and this is also important.
It's a tough balance to keep. Can't please everyone! Just make sure you have goals that honour the mission of your church and respects who your congregation is.
One of the main roles of the church is to teach and often that involves things that aren't particularly comforting to the world. In fact to a certain degree even God's people shouldn't be too comfortable in approaching His throne. I truly believe we are reaping the fruits of many years of allowing the flow of influence to be in the wrong direction so that in many ways the church is the one being "evangelized".
Thank you so very much David for sharing your expert knowledge of hymns contemporary songs. It was very interesting.I love hymns. grew up singing .I sat with my mom in choir practice and wrote down many of the songs for the folks. Sometimes I sing all the way to work without even turning on my radio. Your program is a blessing.God bless you!
You have a very nice voice. I have been traditional minded when it comes to church music, but I went to a service yesterday and the young pianist played with a contemporary style on a grand piano and it sounded great to me. He used tritone subs, reharmonizations and some quartal voicings. He was not a banger, but he did use dynamics very effectively. His playing and music retained my interest.
I like all kinds of music, psalms, hymns and gospel songs. Contemporary, traditional, folk, country western. Congregational singing has been a mainstay of worship for about 600 years. Over that time hundreds of thousands of pieces of Christian music have been written. A large modern hymnal contains, maybe, 600 songs or hymns. I'm willing to wait until 2031 to find out which of the 1000's of ccm issued in 2021 has staying power. Meanwhile I'll be satisfied with the best from the ages. Yes, that will include maybe 50 ccm from 1960-2010, but the other 550 will be older.
Excellent video. It was thoughtful, and I really appreciated your focus on unity and sharing information. This provides a great foundation for beginning "inter-worship-style" conversation. The video itself was well put together, too. Keep it up. I enjoy listening to your song recordings as well.
I love that you used Ever Be as the opening of your video(and yes I knew this before you told us😁) Bless you brother for being kind and seasoned with your words and wisdom. Many on both sides of the traditional and contemporary worship song "debate" can be unkind. May God continue to bless your voice, your ministry, and teaching.
Thank you, I love worship music but have been brought up on hymns. I never understood why it was so easy to play a hymn versus worship. It is because I was lyric/ melody lead, I followed either the leader or the congregation ( without drums) and we never had an issue staying together. But when I play the worship music my team wants to jump ahead with the words while I am finishing the chord progression or I want to play freely while they are keeping with the beat. It all makes so much sense now. Thanks for explaining this.
I was taught to include the opening phrase of the hymn in the introduction. This reminds people of how the song starts. For example, in Great Is Thy Faithfulness, you can play the first four bars then the last four (of either the verse or chorus). Another device that can be effective is to end the introduction on the dominant, and let the beginning of the song resolve the progression to the tonic.
They are both awesome! My church even writes an album of contemporary worship songs every year! The title track of each one is based on a fundamental scripture of our faith
This is so helpful, thank you. Worship leaders who appreciate a variety of styles of worship songs are a tremendous blessing, especially those who keep the focus on God, not their own performance.
This was another superb video. It comes to my attention right after I had a conversation along these lines with our worship leader. This was a friendly conversation around how to engage the congregation with our music, not a church splitting conversation. You are right that this topic can gather a lot of energy in short order. I was singing in a choir in a very conservative church many years ago. The “minister of music” as we called them back then brought a beautiful, soulful, spiritual song to us. He suggested we sway as we sung it. The song and the choir choreography were foreign to that congregation. Our fears were not realized. It was accepted with only a few naysayers. But, we knew that change does not always come easily.
I know the feeling. I once suggested a more modern choir anthem to the choir director at our church at the time. She turned it down as it was "too much like rock." It wasn't but her bias toward classical music made her reject anthems that the congregation (later, after she quit) loved. Ministers, too, can contribute to an inflexible music style. One pastor who loved more modern music would not tell the music director that. Another one preferred Anglican style "smells and bells" worship services and his "classic music" music director fed that urge. We can only try to communicate and suggest.
Thank you for this music-based explanation. My experience from leading contemporary worship for years and also participating "congregationally" for even more years, is: 1 - Leading worship is leading the congregation in worship of our holy, creator God. 2 - Melody-driven music is easier to pick up and follow (compared to groove-based music), especially if you have never heard the song before. 3 - Contemporary music (when groove-based) has many unexpected syncopations, inconsistent phrasing of the lyrics, and is just difficult for many average congregants. It leaves them behind. They no longer participate in the worship. Conclusion: Melody-driven music is better for congregational worship whether it is contemporary or traditional in style. Leave the groove-based music for private worship and Christian performance, etc. Above all, pray and ask God what music He wants to praise Him. It is not really our choice. Cane brought the best he had to worship God, but God rejected it because it was not what He wanted, or required. It may not make sense to us, or be what we would choose. Let's make it God's choice as we worship Him.
There are real generational and experiential effects at play when we talk about what songs are easier to learn. A teenager immersed in contemporary music (Christian or otherwise) is used to to the “vocabulary” of groove-based composition, and come to expect it just as much as others expect the conventions of traditional music. Our brains are shaped by our listening experiences, and enjoy being exposed to familiar patterns. What’s easier for members of one culture to learn could be quite difficult for another.
Thanks for your view on this subject of Traditional Hymns VS Contemporary music. Our church about 15 years ago was having a similar battle. There were so many over 70 crowd that only wanted traditional Hymns. The pastor kept pushing that we should be mindful that the future of the church meant we needed to have music appealing to younger people if the church was to continue past the current generation of 70 year olds. Well thankfully Jesus Christ has lead us to at first a combination of traditional Hymns and new contemporary music. Now we are mostly contemporary music with hymns on special occasions. I think it has worked out well and now we have now many younger generations in the church. God does allow for changes if the congregation will use prayer in making a decision.
Thank you for explaining this in a way that a non-musician such as myself can understand. When I started attending a very large church about 15 years ago, I did recognize a very distinct difference in the structure than what I was used but couldn't quite put my finger on the why. Over time of course, I adapted. It also explains to me why so many younger musicians have told me they find they have trouble playing hymns. I grew up in a Pentecostal church which had it's roots in the American South. While you did have people who would sight-read, you also had a lot of improvisation; sometimes bad but often very good. Since I am an alto with a limited range, that was perfect for me growing up. I listened to what I heard around me and figured out how to blend in. That was actually pretty common in my day. I've seen comments that just having the words as opposed to also having the notation is bad but the reality is "back in the day", many in the congregation did NOT read music either! Sometimes the musicians themselves were completely self-taught as well. Despite that, it is interesting to note how many musical celebrities give credit to those little churches dotted across the country as being their musical heritage. The church I attend is made up mostly of single young adults and young families so contemporary worship is the staple. Despite that, our very talented worship leaders, including our campus pastor, a former worship leader and musician himself, have made it clear that they love to hear this old-school alto voice on the front row weaving through their music. To them it is a successful blending of the old and new. True worship is expressed from the heart of the worshipper and as we are not identical drones, it is not going to be expressed exactly the same way. I dearly love the old and I always will but I also love something fresh and new. I believe that rather than criticize worship teams, we need to diligently pray for them. The enemy hates worship and will attempt to contaminate it but trying to inject pride in those on stage and a pharisee spirit into those who are offstage.
In my opinion, the main problem with a lot of modern songs (or even hymns) is how they are performed and sung. The way it's performed makes a difference in whether it's about the person playing or singing, or about worshipping God. When the songs are sung in such a way as to draw attention to the performer, the beauty is removed and it's no longer about worship.
But so much of how you perceive the performance of a song is conditioned on your own limited perception. When you see someone "rocking out" it may not be to draw attention to themselves. People in different culture, subculture or generation might not interpret the same body language in the same way you do. We cannot judge hearts. Unless you personally know the worship leaders over a period of time and understand what they're all about, misperception is bound to happen.
I love both hymns and contemporary worship music, I've always listened to both on Christian radio. Until recently I've struggled to understand how worship music can be used in churches. But after listening to contemporary church services I think that it does work as well as hymns, as long as the primary focus is worshipping God while singing, also contemporary worship and gospel music is much more likely to get youth going to church as it's music they'll recognise.
Thank you, Brother for sharing this with us. I want to try to write my own worship songs and this is really helping me. Thank God He showed me your video on this.
When you write them please sing them at home. Gospel is the real deal.. Hezekiah walker and ever praise is a spinoff of sting..every breath you take... He should be ashamed of himself
Weezer uses similar pauses in there song, “Say it ain’t so.” The final absence of this pause after the bridge makes the ending feel complete and scary, while it’s presence in the verses makes them more relaxing. It could have been in response to the writer’s father converting to the baptist church, as some of the lyrics are.
This is a great video and I love the goal of melding the hymn to contemporary worship songs. Chris Tomlin does that a lot, and I have a worship CD from Women of Faith that does that too. And enough with the idea of ‘old people like hymns’! I happen to be 64 and I love contemporary worship music! I grew up in the 60s with the Beatles, the 70s with the Bee Gees and the 80s with rock, hip-hop and disco, and I love it all! I am a fan of the metal group Red. Probably the only style of music that I don’t much care for is jazz, because there doesn’t seem to be a start, a middle, and an end. But again, that’s just my opinion.
This is a great analysis. I've never heard it explained so well! Thank you for showing the key differences and showing how all music can be used to worship Jesus. :)
Thank you for a very cogent and easy to understand explanation of what drives a modern worship song. I think this goes a long way towards explaining the lack of participation I see during the "worship" portion of so many churches (as I visit to try and find a home church).
I don’t think it necessarily explains anything. Any young person that sings along with music videos well knows how groove-driven music works, and will learn a new worship song just as quickly. :)
@@DavidWesley I wasn't thinking of issues learning the songs. What I see is that the music isn't engaging the worshippers. They chat, they read, they look at their phones, they fiddle with their coffee. I've seen this at multiple churches and, in fact, it's a major reason I'm having such a hard time finding a home church in a major metropolitan area. It's very discouraging.
A distraction to be sure, but I don’t think that has anything to do with music. They could be totally into the music but not capable of concentrating on one thing at a time. At home they consume music and message friends and do homework at the same time.
It’s not necessarily just young people. Anyone that’s become part of the smartphone generation is at risk of what’s essentially addictive behaviour. Again, I find it a very far reach to blame the music.
well done. thank you. this addresses some of the concerns from our older congregation. some of the contemporary songs we need repetition so that new songs can be learned. a screen with the words def. helps.
New songs need to be led confidently and introduced strategically. An unfamiliar style creates mental obstacles to learning, but they can be overcome when the motivation is there. What better motivation for a senior is there than "this music means so much to your grandkids"?
I love both hymns and contemporary worship music. I grew up mostly singing traditional hymns in church, and in my Christian college group we sing mostly contemporary, but sometimes we add traditional hymns in there too. So to me both are beautiful and add their own unique spin on worship.
Dave, Great run down on the technical differences between hymns and CCM. I agree that knowing where to start singing in a CCM song can be awkward to people who are not familiar with the popular CCM songs that are sung in churches. I would hasten to add though that the core of the debate is not style so much as the origin and philosophy behind the CCM movement. The other cause for angst is the trend in churches to eventually eradicate or severely minimize hymns (sung and played in the traditional manner) when they decide to incorporate CCM. The pattern that I have witnessed in our Baptist churches goes like this: Traditional to Blended (60% Hymns/40% CCM) to Blended (60% CCM/40% Hymns) to CCM totally. Thanks for sharing and keep up the great work! 🙂
I wasn’t trying to encapsulate the entire debate, just pointing out an objective structural difference that has consequences for congregations. It’s also a big reason why teams of musicians will struggle with one or the other. It’s not always reasonable to expect worship teams to be able to switch back and forth easily. A guest speaker wants me to so Victory in Jesus for a closing song this coming Sunday. I am rather unenthusiastic about it…
This breakdown is fascinating. I stumbled upon it while researching why it's so difficult to find the time signature in traditional hymns when just listening. If I was to transcribe some of those tunes, I'd change meter for many of the measures. This explanation of melody vs groove based songs helps me come to terms with it, haha.
When I do new arrangements of hymns, I occasionally have to throw in bars of a different meter to get things to work properly. For example, the “sand” at the end of the chorus of The Solid Rock needs to be on beat 1 unless immediately doing a repeat of the chorus.
Very on point discussion.Sing whatever you want to sing(traditional hymns or contemporary songs).The only measure of true worship in singing is intention of the mind and heart.
This is true, but singing together corporately requires some tools to make it work. It’s only a difference in approach to those tools that this video is about - neither is good or bad.:)
In contemporary music you have some very Biblical styles and artists like Sovereign Grace and Keith and Kristyn Getty. You also have some more liberal adaptations of hymns such as To You O God All Creatures Sing, Creator of the Intertwined, God of the Women, As with Gladness Those of Old. Two of these are adaptations which are used in the New Century Hymnal, which is used by the United Church of Christ.
Excellent video! Better than many of your others that only talk. Thank you David for this instructional and DEMONSTRATIVE (I hate the first part of this word but I can't think of a more descriptive word) video. It helps. When you only explain or talk, that's monotone. But when you sing, play and display the parts of the song in notes/lyrics, that's video in stereo, & the quality if light is like comparing sunlight to tungsten bulbs. And I haven't heard the song "And Can It Be" for over 50 years (vacation Bible school as a child--not in my church's hymnal)!! If you had just explained it, I would've never remembered this old hymn. And you sang even this teeny part so well, I wish you'd sing the whole song! GOD bless & have a great day!
Ha! DEMONstrative. :) I was up until almost 3am recording this one, so I'm glad the extra effort was worthwhile. It really is a topic I'm passionate about. I've seen too much harm done by people that handle it poorly!
My feeling is that the traditional melody based is focused on the singer and the contemporary has an increased focus on the accompanying music. I've enjoyed both but personally prefer the traditional due to the focus on the singer. The introduction with the base melody prepares you. With many hymns having different words set to the same melody it is easier to pick up. I would love to see the traditional melody based using set with contemporary words and insight
I can appreciate that sentiment. However, when I examine what young people are listening to, they pick up and memorize these songs sooo quickly. The accompaniment (a “hook” or groove) is often an important and memorable part of that. They learn through repeated listening, and rhythms that might not come naturally to older folks roll right off their tongues. It’s a culture shift, and not necessarily a bad one.
I have no musical talent whatsoever but you made it so clear that if you don't understand something is wrong with you. I like both and do agree, hymns or contemporary whichever you use just worship God and don't focus so much on the people that sing it. Now if they are obviously me me me then turn your back and move along.
I love both and both speak to me at different times. For a long time,I felt guilty about going to a contemporary service most of the time and then for advent, Easter and Palm Sunday going traditional. But I don’t think God cares and I’ve come to a point where I’m more annoyed with someone who insists that one way is correct.
Music that is melody based has more opportunity to harmonize. They are easier to sing and remember because they are based on the melody not a beat or rhythm. Your talk just made me feel more strongly about using hymns that people can remember and sing in their worship of God throughout the week, not just at church. When my dad lost most of his memory, he could still sing all the verses of the hymns of the faith that he had sung and directed in our church for years.
Your first assertion isn’t quite true. You could have a groove-based song with the exact same vocal melody and harmony. This video was about the underlying structure, and not really about what people are actually singing. There is plenty of room for harmony in modern songs!
No matter which type of music a church chooses to employ for it’s congregational worship, the choice of worship leader is paramount. Paul the Apostle said, don’t lay hands on anyone too quickly - meaning, don’t employ anyone into ministry before you know them or before they have proved their ministry capabilities and heart before God (which is most important of all). Churches who let anyone with a modicum of musical ability without vetting or testing them over time, regardless of age and experience, are making serious concessions and inviting controversy and trouble. Spiritual maturity is the MOST IMPORTANT character trait for a worship leader! Young people have all the energy, time and enthusiasm to be worship leaders, but they rarely ever have the spiritual maturity to avoid the pitfall of pride. A worship leader is for the sole purpose of leading a group of untrained singers in worship of God. We don’t even train people to do this. We just put them up there because they can sing loud and strong. We put them in the position of being a target for the Enemy to use to destroy the unity of the Body. This is no small matter. Without huge prayer covering, we are putting a huge target on their backs for great pride to take hold too. Maybe we have to take a step back and ask if we are doing things correctly at all? Why not put the worship teams behind the congregation like many churches used to? Why put them up front to be glorified and honored more than the Lord we are singing to? The temptation for pride is just too great for us to be willy-nilly about. I know because I’ve been there and I don’t want to fall into that trap again. Here’s a test. Look around and see who is singing. If there are very few actually singing, the worship leader is failing. Period.
@@DavidWesley, with all due respect, it could have been, but it wasn’t. I spent a while composing that comment for you and your audience to consider. It is based on my observations from years of church-going and playing on worship teams, as well as my most recent experiences going to a new church. So why did you dismiss it so readily? Yes, but…is not a discussion. Please consider making a video about this topic if it is something truly important for churches and worship leaders to know. Not many do.
Wonderful video! I've been trying to figure out a way to explain the stylistic differences to my 14 year old son, but I'm not familiar enough with music theory, etc to really know the answer myself! We have recently moved and our previous church was more traditional in hymns and choruses. We love them, and our new church's music is contemporary. It threw us for a loop for a while. They sing a hymn in the service on a regular, if not weekly, basis, but it's usually got a modern riff (that's what you called it I think?) added in. I do wish we sang more hymns, but our music pastor does an amazing job with the worship. At first I didn't know many songs we sang at all, but I've found that we repeat certain songs more often until we learn them. He will often introduce new songs through the choir or worship team singing it first one week, then the congregation singing it in worship the next. I felt awkward, uncomfortable, and distracted at first with the unfamiliar style of worship, and my son still prefers hymns, but I'm hoping he will realize the distinction between style preference and something being "wrong " with contemporary music. Lately, I have found God using the words to these new songs that I've learned to minister to my heart in ways I never imagined when we first came to this church. I still don't enjoy a lot of the songs on the local Christian radio station; they really do seem too repetitious with certain words or phrases, or sometimes I feel like every song sounds about the same as the last one they played. But when Pastor Jonathan does what he does, he limits the repeats, reads Scripture to introduce the songs, emphasizes God's attributes, etc. He radiates the heart of worship, and I am blessed. Thank you for teaching this. I will be showing it to my son!
Thanks for sharing. I do encourage people to pay little attention to Christian radio. What you hear there is a tiny fraction of new Christian songs, and ones that meet a formula for making a “hit.” And what you hear on the radio is simply one way to perform the song. I definitely don’t wear people out with endless repeats!
One of the things I love about traditional hymns, And Can it Be? my favorite, is they tell a story from the first to last verse. My only problem w/ Scripture songs isn't the songs themselves. It is most of the churches I've preached in have totally abandoned the hymns. Tomorrow is Easter and there are churches, including the one I attend, that will not sing, Christ the Lord is Risen Today.
I know the Bible talks about having skilled musicians so this is informative but isn't it crazy that we are even having this conversation at all? We are talking about worship. (Defined as: The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity.) Like mentioned in the beginning of the video, this is an emotional topic and needs to be discussed, but it still blows my mind that we have to have this conversation at all.
I think there's a bit more drilling down needed to get to the big difference. It's not that hymns are "melody first," it's that they are largely "words first." The music we commonly sing with "A Mighty Fortress" likely isn't the original music. In many cases, the music was wrapped around the words. "Just As I Am" is another example. There are times when words are applied to existing music, but the reason that works is because that music was probably originally wrapped around a different set of words, and the same regular metrical structure allows a new set of words to be applied. It's quite common for the lyricist and composer to be completely different people. So hymns come across as "melody first" because the first thing a composer has to do is figure out what to do with the words that are in front of them, which are primarily handled in the melody. As a composer myself who collaborates with lyricists in a way that is similar to hymn writing centuries ago, I might have some harmonic ideas when I write music for a given text, but I have to figure out how to get to those harmonic ideas melodically. In contrast, a lot of contemporary music is "music first." Often, the words and music spring forth together. You can see this in songs where the verse is little more than spoken word layered over music (The A section of the verse of "Thrive" comes to mind). The songs center around musical moments and getting from musical moment to musical moment. One is not necessarily better or worse than the other. There are really bad hymns and really good contemporary songs (and vice versa). The hymn style of writing may have an advantage in conveying content because it tends to be words first, music second (as opposed to words often being written to fit around a musical notion, which can get awkward), but neither is guaranteed to be "good."
Thanks for your input. I disagree with the “words first” idea, as that ignores centuries of melismatic music, up to and including the “Gloria” portion of Angels We Have Heard On High.” I’m not referring at all to how songs are composed but how they are structured as performances - this is what’s most relevant in a worship service. Contemporary music also has more independence between the melody and the accompaniment, which can have layers of rhythm and syncopation that are very different in complexity and energy. You can have furious guitar strumming supporting very slow singing, or even the reverse. Syncopated melody over a straight accompaniment - or vice versa.
I love my local church but I do wish we would go back and forth between the 2 styles (Traditional and Modern). I feel like I’m missing out on a lot of classics. Hearing the same songs that come on CC radio cheapens church a bit though we change up arrangement certainly. I’m not sure what I would be asking for the musician to do when I suggest some traditional music. I know it’s not the most important thing by any stretch. Personally a lot of CC music has fallen out of favor with me due to the repetitious nature and to the same extent because we’re trying to emulate a particular version sometimes it cheapens the music for me. I like all styles of music generally.
Every congregation must find their own balance between fresh and familiar, simple and complicated, serious and lighthearted. Because of the differences in composition styles, not every praise band will be able to do both styles well, which is one reason they may stray away from hymns. I definitely don't go to Christian radio to find new songs to sing!
Yep, pretty hard to have mystic sweet communion with those whose rest is won if you throw out everything (musically and liturgically) that is more than 15 years old.
I came here after watching the Distraction Dilemma series by Christian Berdahl. My sons have really gotten into your music and I am not sure what to make of it. I do appreciate the way you take songs that are way too rambunctious and tone them down a bit. But...Too many thoughts. Thank you for taking the time to share your perspective.
@@DavidWesley Yes. Rambunctious. Am I using the word incorrectly? Either way, we are all sitting in our living room enjoying your version of the songs.
The thing I have with some of the new music, it is that it doesn't focus on the people that are the actual performers of worship. The performers are the congregation, the audience is God. This was an epiphany during this video ... "dead space" can (for a mature Christian) something that can be filled with prayer, but worship is active. It is not watching someone else "perform" it is the individual performing the worship to God. Not that I don't like some contemporary music in worship ... I do. But I would say that those that have *any* dead space are not where they need to be. Putting a background vocal in so that the instruments are not central to any part of the worship song I would call critical to a congregational worship element. The only time I can see having non-participatory points in music during worship is time that is inherently prayer time. But then I'd want that to be such that the person is in fact praying, not distracted by music ... even if the music is there and is a work of great beauty. But to sum it up ... If God is the audience, and the congregation is the performers, the music needs to be structured around that completely.
I think that the real driving force in most hymns is its theology but I get your point with being melody driven. Part of your point there however is what I call coherence. That is that the music (not just the melody) is complementary to the text. You might say that the hymns are typically text driven with the music designed (at least in the good ones) to reinforce the text. Part of the problem with groove based songs is that it almost unavoidably puts the focus on a band performance rather than the word sung. It is true that an accompaniment for a traditional hymn can be made to detract from the vocal message or lesson through over ornementation but in the contemporary choruses it is essentially built in IMO.
I was speaking solely about composition style. There are modern melody-driven songs as well, and the divide isn’t always clean cut. There certainly are potential stumbling blocks with either approach, but “unavoidable” is a bit much...
@@DavidWesley Well I did say almost. ;) Yes I would say that a lot of the music from say the Getty's is written as a modern hymn and does have the coherence and sing-ability of classic hymns.
@@DavidWesley Yes, I agree. I just used them as a most obvious example. One of the great things about their music is that in most cases the music is very sing-able and usually can be successfully harmonized. Being essentially a contra-bass voice I find the latter quite important. So much of the CCM requires one to be either a tenor or soprano with the foundation coming strictly from the electric bass.
I attended a number of worship conferences mostly in 80's and early 90's and at that time the difference between hymns and choruses were that hymns were often written when people didn't read or have access to material so they are full of teaching and theology were as the choruses were more relationship focused. Another issue that maybe hinders modern writers is the old hymn writer used tunes that people knew. This can be seen way back to the Psalms that some have notes about the tune to use. Many hymns picked up tunes that were used outside of church as people would go out and sing more than they do now. Also the metre marks in hymnals show were tunes can be exchanged. These days if you took a popular tune and set words to it and published it you'd get the copyright lawyers down on you. And we don't have the culture of that public singing with simple tunes now so don't have that library of freely used tunes.
There are still loads of public domain tunes out there! As for copyright, it's enshrined in the U.S. constitution. Just as important as the second amendment. :) But I'm Canadian, and we respect copyright out of our infinite politeness!
I heartily disagree. Servant leaders are there to serve the greater body. Not pander, mind you, but serve. That means the congregation needs to stretch and grow at times, but not to be lost.
An example of God's perfect plan is Psalms. Songs preserved without music. I'm a firm believer that music is written from the sounds we're surrounded by. Listen to contemporary music, written post industrial, and contemporary to the electronic and digital age. You can hear the rhythms of what we are surrounded by. Hymns, many written prior to industrial noise, have that vocal melody first I believe cause there was not any of those rhythmic sounds we here today in life. I agree that there is no moral significance from one Era to another. I do believe that expressing music with the sounds that surround us does ad energy to our expression.
I enjoy and worship through both styles of music. I find it easier to sing with the traditional hymns because you know what to expect, even if the leader skips a verse. It is a little bit harder to sing along with contemporary music because you never know when the worship leader will add a riff. It’s so embarrassing to be singing at the top of your lungs when the band all of a sudden adds a few bars of groove! It’s even worse when they change the key while doing it! I am singing to God, but I wish that I could be in all of the rehearsals so that I would know what changes they made!🤪
It’s the difference between the writing and the execution of contemporary worship music that is tripping you up, more a function of the church/tradition you’re talking about than the songs themselves. There are many, many churches that will do contemporary songs in straight, predictable ways!
As others have pointed out, traditional music is oriented around the congregation and contemporary music is oriented around the performer. That being the case, those leading contemporary music believe that it is OK to make any changes and any time, just because they feel like it. Those leading traditional music know that they must stick to the way the music is traditionally performed or the congregation will revolt. This is why it is such a grating experience when a contemporary worship group tries to lead a traditional hymn. They feel that they can change the tempo and phrasing to suit themselves, independent of how the hymn is traditionally sung.
Have you ever read about Fanny Crosby? Wrote some of the most beloved and beautiful hymns, and that woman had some big issues!😬 As I have in my life & God's love never fails, never gives up, nerver runs out on me! I'm just saying... there's definitely two sides as their is to literally EVERYTHING, every story, argument, every issue. Until we walk in someone else's shoes...we don't know everything! David, this was very well said at the beginning & what a nice descriptive job of not lashing out in PERSONAL preference, attacking the opposite (which is not always wrong) in life! The main thing is that we acknowledge if we are God's children WE are the church, and the church shouldn't lose sight as to why we are here! I believe when we disagree so much, we can't be that light 😊 Not saying that's happening here, just chiming in ;) I know a lot of work went into this video- thank you for doing this & sharing! :)
Here is an observation from one who's church congregation sings mostly acapella. Hymns are designed to be sung in 4 part harmony. Hymns stand up well when sung acapella. Hymns are usually structured more simply to cater to congregational singing.
That’s basically the point of the video, though the harmony is an added bonus to the song structure. The thing is, contemporary songs with a structure that exists beyond the singing puts that singing within a greater context. It’s like a stained-glass window on its own vs in context on the wall of a gothic stone church. The window is great, but the window dressing adds something of its own.
God is found in silence and stillness. Music should direct one to that place within; not simply stimulate emotions. Inspired music transcends language, culture and religion. This is captured in comments where people say that they do not understand the language and are not of the faith yet the music calms their spirit, speaks to their soul.
They have to tell a pianist how to do an intro? Wow! I was church pianist for decades, & I simply knew how to do it, from hearing the previous church pianist do it. It’s intuitive, & doesn’t need to be highlighted or anything. Then again, our church sang both hymns & worship choruses. The church I go to now never sings hymns. I go there because the Word is preached, but I worship in song at home before I go, as they only perform one song. That’s the extent of the singing, & the music is so loud that I can’t tell if anyone in the audience is singing or not. It’s truly sad.
I didn’t say the intro *had* to be marked off or used, just that it’s a helpful hint. As for the volume of music, that’s completely irrelevant to this video, I’m afraid. I’m only speaking about structure of songwriting. There is no need to perform either style in an obnoxious or unhelpful manner. I also think personal worship time helps people get over frustration with style issues in corporate worship. Unfortunately, most people don’t take the time to do that, so they can get really vexed when they don’t get “fed” musically.
I think the important thing to recognize here is that neither of these styles is better or worse than the other. It is all worship. I do think in many cases the tradition of the congregation singing along with the music leaders has died off where CCM is more prominent, but is that a good or a bad thing? It depends on how you like to worship. The older generations grew up singing out of the hymn book but the younger generations have grown up either singing along and knowing all the pauses or they just worship to the music without singing along with it. Neither is inferior or superior, just preference. The modern church is full of talented musicians that love to play more musically centered songs and it's far better for us to have a place to worship and play our instruments in new and challenging ways than for us to have no outlet because people prefer hymns. A church with a healthy mixture of young and old patrons should have a healthy mixture of young and old music.
Many people commenting on this video miss the fact that groove-based contemporary songs can have very easy and memorable melodies. The example I give in the video is “Today” by Brian Doerksen, in which the melody is slow and the accompaniment provides nearly all the energy. And what people forget is that there were hundreds of years before the invention of the hymn book, singing in worship services was also not very participatory - chant leaders and choirs doing the heavy lifting. I appreciate your acceptance of both schools.
@@DavidWesley indeed a lot of samples from both styles (which is a bit broad since there are a wide variety of styles in both hymns and ccm) can be simple and complex, but hymn music only really lends itself to melodic instruments such as piano and organ and only rudimentary drums and maybe guitar but certainly traditionally only the piano and organ and maybe a tambourine were used for many years in churches.
Maybe you have already answered this, but I didn't hear it clearly explained in the video and haven't seen it in the comments I have looked at so far. What exactly does the "groove" in "groove-based" refer to? All I could think of was the expression from the '60s of certain things being "groovy" (both music and a lot of other things) and the way I understood that doesn't seem to fit this. If that's it, how does this fit? If it's something else, what is it?
I used a few different words besides “groove” to explain. Basically, it means that the rhythm and feel of the accompaniment structures and powers the song instead of strictly the melody.
A nice presentation and examples. Over the years I have transitioned from preferring traditional church music with a pipe organ to preferring piano accompaniment to now preferring a blend of styles of worship music that has room for both hymn arrangements and unique contemporary music. For me, one irritation of _some_ contemporary music is that they do not use a "circle of fifths" and often end on an unresolved chord. It's as though the song "should" continue but doesn't. (facepalm). LOL. Also, some contemporary music seems written by a beginning composer and lacks a memorable melody or is hard to harmonize to (a desire of mine). I prefer songs that are easy to harmonize with and that leave me wanting to hum them as I leave the worship service. That same type of "not memorable" song occurs in many hymns, too, so that's not just related to contemporary music. One of the problems with contemporary music that I see as "weak" may be that local "amateur" musicians are creating their own music to avoid copyright issues for televised or videos of the music. Churches with low budgets may have funds to buy the licenses needed for display and video recording of copyrighted music.
The memorability of music is very much dependent on the kind of music already engraved into your brain. The average teenager that is immersed in contemporary music will find the syncopated rhythms quite easy to remember.
@@DavidWesley Thx for the quick reply. "Memorable' (to me) has less to do with syncopation (which I enjoy), but more to due to what I feel is a great melody, especially one that has chording that stirs me. My bias likely comes from years of 4-part harmony (choral and quartet) singing. I itch to sing harmony and for a "I want to sing that again!" feeling. Many contemporary worship sings fill that need (for me); some just don't. I do continue to attend a church with contemporary music, though, and the exact style and "quality" of the songs don't affect my desire to attend.
Our brains are shaped by repeated exposure to stimuli, so even our notion of “quality” depends so much on experience. Others might resonate more with clever rhymes, “sick beats,” or other qualities of songs that other might not even notice. I’m grateful for people that are able to look past their preferences and not label everything else as inherently trash. :)
Whether it is traditional hymns or contemporary worship songs, my biggest gripe with worship leaders is that many seem to blur the line between leading worship and performing, as if they are the center of focus at a concert.
Indeed. Though we should celebrate the gifts God gives to His people, we shouldn't let that eclipse the worship of the God who gave them.
Yeah and they make sure they look good in their skinny jeans.
My disappointnent too...
@@nathanadkins2985 hehehe it's everywhere even here in Kenya🇰🇪
Amen. Song leaders that add or omit words displayed on-screen for the congregation are showing too much ego. Ones that add strong body gyrations can distract from the musical message. I think of vocal music in church as "sermons in song." The message can be delivered by beat and rhythm, melody line, and/or words. It's the message that counts, not the praise band member.
Despite my BA in music and years of being a traditional (Lutheran and Catholic) church organist, this was the clearest description I have ever seen. Thank you.
Yes clear if you have a BA in music.
The way I see it, the only wrong way to praise God is half-heartedly.
Well my friend, do you think we can praise the Lord using rock music and worldly styles of music?
Remember the bible tells us, "Be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind"
Amen Eddie!
@@jmsmckellar All music is "of the world" (aka worldly). Styles of music vary over time and by area of the world (culture). The style of music itself is neither good nor bad. The key is the spiritual message that the music (instrumental + voice) delivers to the hearers. A piece of spiritual music can be spiritually "dead" or "alive" no matter what its style is. A person's preference in religious music style often relates to their background -- what they are used to. Us "old fogies" often prefer traditional hymn styles, but that does not make them "better."
@@cyber4eyes766 Well I kind of have to agree with James on this one. I would argue a "Christian" song such as Bethel's Deep Cries Out should not be sung in church because of its flaws. The song is implying that the "Deep crying out" is God's love, but what David actually meant in the Psalms is his pain and sorrow. I would say a song that is said to praise God but is biblically inaccurate is not a correct way to praise God. For example, you shouldn't sing a song declaring that God will take away all pains and suffering from your life if you just believe, because this is a terrible message that is not backed up by scripture and will lead others to sing the song to believe what the song is saying and could lead them away from Christ. A song is a mini sermon, so if a song is teaching incorrect theology, it should not be sung.
My beef with contemporary worship songs is that there are so many of them. And everyone wants to write one, so there are more and more coming out every week. And then you have some worship leaders who hear a song on the radio, internet, CD, etc. and they want to get the congregation to sing the song, even though not every song that a band/group does is suited as a worship song, and they want to do it in the exact same style as the CD, radio, internet, etc., which is a great style when you listen to it, but not always conducive to singing in church.
When we had hymn books, the number of songs were limited and people got to know the songs. These days, most people in church don't know all the words to all the songs. I have found real comfort in some of the hymns I grew up with due to circumstances in my life as of late. That's because I know the words, and they come rushing back to me. Just a few words or notes.
You could also go from church to church and still feel comfortable because this body of hymns was fairly universal between churches, even though they used different books. I visited a church in Saskatoon recently and did not know one song that was sung. I was so focused on what the words were and what the tune was, that I could not properly worship that day. That's because the body of contemporary music we sing in our church is different than the body of contemporary music that church sings.
Don't get me wrong. I like some of the newer music, but I wish I could get to know some of it as well as the hymns. I really like some of the hymns where musicians have incorporated different/modern instruments, changed the tempo, or some other subtle changes that give these old songs a more modern feel.
You should see my videos on song repertoire management and evaluating songs for congregations. Even a hymn book has too many songs for a single congregation to be familiar with all of them. We don't have to sing every song under the sun in our church services. Every church will have a blend of fresh and familiar that works best for them.
I'm sure there were plenty of hymns made in their time too, but many were local and didn't get "big"
@@DavidWesley But at least when there's a hymnal, you know whether the next note will be higher or lower than the one you're singing *right now* whether or not you can read music.
Being groove based may not be inherently bad, but I do think groove based music is more often misused. It's discouraging to sit through the "worship" part of a service when the music is so loud you can't hear the worship leader's singing because the instruments are too loud; it's not as though you have actual music as a reference. Then you look around and see that everyone has given up trying to sing along and the "worship" really is just a Christian music concert
@@paulag1955 Copyright is a thing.
Funnily though, when I go to a Chinese church, I can almost always find the lead sheet somewhere online lol
@@maxxiong Yes, of course, but I'm struggling to understand how to whether or not a church uses hymnals is related to copyrights.
David, thank you for a wonderfully fair, balanced, and Christ-centered analysis. You've helped me to see beyond the preconceptions that I've held regarding both hymns and contemporary music. I really enjoyed your singing and playing as you shared examples. This video is a great resource I will be sharing and visiting again. Very well done!
I agree! Thank you David! So well thought out and helpful.
I love a church that uses both. I'm in my '70s and most my age want the old hymns and I understand that; I remember when I was young my parents hated this new music! Actually I remember how they got on board with the Beatles They liked The Beatles music! I love when a song uses parts from the older songs and the newer songs. Those really lift my heart! P.S. I love your videos! And congrats on that new baby!
I wish more churches, both traditional and contemporary, would use a blend of music styles. Many people enjoy food with varied flavors. Our spiritual music palate might delight in a blend of "flavors" among the varied songs sung. Perhaps adding a blend would ease "getting it" for varied styles. One can hope. :)
To me, the biggest issue with contemporary services (and now many traditional services) is that no one is reading the actual music. Once upon a time, folks could pretty much read because they were reading the melody as well as the harmonies. Using just lyrics has really screwed up music education as a whole. Church was where most folks got the basics. Now, even the ones leading don’t usually know how to read musical notation.
Fair enough. But in the grand scheme of church history, hymnals with notes on a staff was only in certain countries for a relatively short period of time. They were controversial to many at first, then accepted, then the norm. It's neither good nor bad that churches move away from this. Singing with projected lyrics and songs learned from the radio is still a step up from having to rely 100% on memory - like Christians in much of the world do (and everyone before the 18th century or so).
David Wesley I partially agree. However, it has been a major step backwards in American churches to do away with written music, in my opinion. Sure, New is often controversial; however, sometimes what was controversial and new turn out to be major assets, and sometimes they don’t. However, like I said, I believe it to be a step backwards. I don’t have anything against projecting the lyrics on the screen, but it is also possible to project the written music... especially in traditional and blended services. This is also one of the drawbacks of contemporary praise and worship music - that it’s not nearly notated like most traditional hymns.
But there are several issues on both sides of the argument that I’ve learned as an organist, contemporary worship leader, and a minister of music. However, this is the one of the more glaring issues in the evolution of the church in my opinion.
You would need a very large projection screen to get words and music big enough to be seen by a large group of people! Contemporary worship songs are fully notated - lead/vocal sheets are available for just about every song I've led. But they end up being multiple pages long, because the song structures are generally more complicated than hymns - verses, choruses, pre-choruses, bridges, reprises. That's definitely not a step backward! The main reason why I think hymn books aren't terribly helpful any more is that you have to wait years and years for a publisher to decide what to include in the new book, and then you have to replace all your hymnbooks! Maybe if everyone could have the music sent to their smartphones...
David Wesley The step backwards is the non-use of written music. Also, most churches now that use screens have them often large enough to have a phrase at a time of notation also. Found a website today.
The issue with notating contemporary music, while it’s widely available, it can be more difficult to read for a novice due to what is often times more complex rhythms and intervals that aren’t as simple as the usual hymn-like structures that are based on the eight or the quarter which would be what would make it more difficult.
Syncopated rhythms are indeed harder to notate and read. There is a great deal of syncopation in music from outside the European church tradition, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. So much of what we value in music depends on our culture and experiences. That's why I try reserve judgment about the suitability of music for anyone outside my own congregation.
Repetition can be almost like a meditation to me - it puts me in a happy, worshipping place where I’m giving my heart to God.
This is so great and helpful. I’ve attended both hymn churches and contemporary churches. There are great songs in both styles (and also not so great ones). I’ve been a part of worship teams for 20 years and finally feel like I get the difference. 😆 It’s also helpful as I try to write worship songs. I think our worship team would have a very hard time being vocal led, but we’re also of a generation that was raised on folk rhythms.
I also find that when I play hymns on the guitar, I tend to change the timing a bit. Maybe I’m adding a little bit of a more familiar “groove”? Our worship team does this as well, which is a great way to bring in familiar songs.
David thank you so very much for your welcomed and timely explanation!
You have given the Gold Standard!! It breaks my heart that most churches including ours has given way to GROOVY and those with bruised and heavy hearts don’t have anything to sing that they can recall an hour after the service…no melody driven music! It’s the Chinese-food analogy - you’re hungry and void in an hour! And certainly the JOY is totally lacking in our corporate worship!
Let’s pray pastors will listen to this and take heed and action!
God bless your ministry!
Wow! I learned so much! As far as style, reverence is important to me.
Very well produced video and explanation . Still prefer the hymns, much more theological weight. I am from the Dominican Republic and grew up as a Catholic listenimg to pop and latin music with no idea of worship songs . When I came to Christ the hymns were a revelation to me.
I love both. Christian music has such a rich heritage for hundreds of years. The newer work is adding to the richness!
Interesting, thought-provoking , I am glad I stopped by. Your keyboard skills and knowledge is an awesome blessing!
What a beautiful way of explaining the differences. You make great sense. I was driven here basically for the a capelas. Now I am attracted to the words as well. I also love the comments section. I have learned so much from the commenters, plus I have a feeling David that you read almost all of them.
This was very informative. I tend to enjoy older hymns as well as some of the newer contemporary music with expressiveness, and even southern gospel! What draws me to a song is how does it worship or glorify God, or how does it speak of the greatness of God. God is God and worthy of reverence and awe and not just our buddy. At least that’s how we feel. Thanks again for sharing all your harmonious melodies .
Great post, nice job keeping an objective tone throughout. I love hymns and contemporary songs, both. Hymns, to me, seem more inclusive of the congregation. Contemporary is more exclusive. You're right in that melody takes the back seat. Still, some of the best worship I've taken part in is contemporary. I'm taking a backseat and letting the music and the words and the talent of the band direct my attention to God. Hymns don't have the power and punch that contemporary music does. But on the other hand, hymns have history and nostalgia behind them. And let's face it, a good portion of hymns have rock solid doctrine. You said it best. These two styles are two sides of the same coin.
You have a lovely voice. No need to overdo it on the reverb.
I was aiming for overdramatic. :)
Great content, David! I hope this video is seen, and embraced, by thousands. I've been a church musician (instrumentalist) since I was 12 years old, sometimes choir director, sometimes worship leader. Keeping an open mind, and listening to people with different tastes in music is key to remembering that whatever style we sing or play is first and foremost for the glory of and enjoyment by God. I so wish church leadership would spend a couple of sermons a year (for example the way many do regarding tithing/stewardship) and teach about musical worship. That could go a long way toward closing the gap between people with different tastes, as well as simply helping people better understand how to (the 'mechanics' of) sing in one style or another. Your video would make a great first half of a 30 minute sermon. Maybe you should volunteer to preach one week next time your pastor takes a vacation. ;)
Actually my church has a series of guest speakers from amongst the congregation every summer. They meet for months with the pastor as a mentoring group and get loads of guidance and feedback. We've had individual sermons, even a series in worship in the last two years. My brother is the preacher in the family, though. I'm just a guy trying to share what I've learned!
Great news about the summer guest speakers. And thanks again for sharing what you have learned!
Thanks for this video. I really like how you've unpacked this! God bless you!
I've learnt some new insights and key differences between hymns and contemporary worship songs through your examples. Understanding the differences is helpful for churches and musicians that are more accustomed to hymns adapting their styles to playing contemporary songs. Thanks for sharing :)
This was such a great breakdown. I don't know anything about music, but I was able to follow you. 😄
David, thank you while i am 73 and raised on hymms, i very much have gone over to the other side, I find that today's Christian Contemporary music is very more more engaging, helps make a worship service, I have seen "concerts" that became worship services with 3RD Day, Chris Tomlin, Hillside United, they all started as concerts, ended up being worship services,, I have not heard anyone under 50 say,,...boy i wish we would do Rock of Ages sometime soon. But might want to hear The Solid Rock when Medleyed with Cornerstone. If we are to reach the hope of the future, we need to fire up the youth to accept God, Accept Jesus and accept the ever changing church
I find that after attending my church's virtual live stream, I hunger for more music and often call up TH-cam and sing along with some. I invariably choose a mix of hymn adaptations, inspirational, and contemporary styles. Today I spent over an hour doing that. It really makes my Sunday!
Im 23 and one of the main things keeping me away from most churches is contemporary music. It’s just pop music, nothing unique. If I want that I can turn on the radio. Traditional hymns sung in congregation make me FEEL something. They are UNIQUE to any other type of music. My 21 year old girlfriend feels the same way. I want to hear the hymns I grew up with in a country baptist church, not mediocre pop/rock.
Thanks for this, David! My pastor asked me to take over worship leader duties with the caveat that I can do all the "new" stuff but keep some traditional songs as a large part of the congregation is over 60 years old. I am trying find a balance where we can incorporate these traditional hymns which are so impactful and full of biblical knowledge, but today's generation responds to a more "contemporary" style of worship and this is also important.
It's a tough balance to keep. Can't please everyone! Just make sure you have goals that honour the mission of your church and respects who your congregation is.
One of the main roles of the church is to teach and often that involves things that aren't particularly comforting to the world. In fact to a certain degree even God's people shouldn't be too comfortable in approaching His throne. I truly believe we are reaping the fruits of many years of allowing the flow of influence to be in the wrong direction so that in many ways the church is the one being "evangelized".
Mk Shffr Hmmm. Now there's a thought. But an unsettling one at that.
I love this brother's ways. So humbly appealing.
Thank you so very much David for sharing your expert knowledge of hymns contemporary songs.
It was very interesting.I love hymns. grew up singing .I sat with my mom in choir practice and wrote down many of the songs for the folks.
Sometimes I sing all the way to work without even turning on my radio. Your program is a blessing.God bless you!
You have a very nice voice. I have been traditional minded when it comes to church music, but I went to a service yesterday and the young pianist played with a contemporary style on a grand piano and it sounded great to me. He used tritone subs, reharmonizations and some quartal voicings. He was not a banger, but he did use dynamics very effectively. His playing and music retained my interest.
I like all kinds of music, psalms, hymns and gospel songs. Contemporary, traditional, folk, country western. Congregational singing has been a mainstay of worship for about 600 years. Over that time hundreds of thousands of pieces of Christian music have been written. A large modern hymnal contains, maybe, 600 songs or hymns. I'm willing to wait until 2031 to find out which of the 1000's of ccm issued in 2021 has staying power. Meanwhile I'll be satisfied with the best from the ages. Yes, that will include maybe 50 ccm from 1960-2010, but the other 550 will be older.
Excellent video. It was thoughtful, and I really appreciated your focus on unity and sharing information. This provides a great foundation for beginning "inter-worship-style" conversation. The video itself was well put together, too. Keep it up. I enjoy listening to your song recordings as well.
Glad you enjoyed it! Reasoned conversation beats vitriol any day!
I love that you used Ever Be as the opening of your video(and yes I knew this before you told us😁) Bless you brother for being kind and seasoned with your words and wisdom. Many on both sides of the traditional and contemporary worship song "debate" can be unkind. May God continue to bless your voice, your ministry, and teaching.
Thank you, I love worship music but have been brought up on hymns. I never understood why it was so easy to play a hymn versus worship. It is because I was lyric/ melody lead, I followed either the leader or the congregation ( without drums) and we never had an issue staying together.
But when I play the worship music my team wants to jump ahead with the words while I am finishing the chord progression or I want to play freely while they are keeping with the beat. It all makes so much sense now. Thanks for explaining this.
I was taught to include the opening phrase of the hymn in the introduction. This reminds people of how the song starts. For example, in Great Is Thy Faithfulness, you can play the first four bars then the last four (of either the verse or chorus). Another device that can be effective is to end the introduction on the dominant, and let the beginning of the song resolve the progression to the tonic.
They are both awesome! My church even writes an album of contemporary worship songs every year! The title track of each one is based on a fundamental scripture of our faith
I love this explanation. I so want both to be part our worship.
Thanks, David. I've found myself on both sides of this debate and this is the best, most well thought out, explanation I've encountered.
This is so helpful, thank you. Worship leaders who appreciate a variety of styles of worship songs are a tremendous blessing, especially those who keep the focus on God, not their own performance.
This was another superb video. It comes to my attention right after I had a conversation along these lines with our worship leader. This was a friendly conversation around how to engage the congregation with our music, not a church splitting conversation. You are right that this topic can gather a lot of energy in short order. I was singing in a choir in a very conservative church many years ago. The “minister of music” as we called them back then brought a beautiful, soulful, spiritual song to us. He suggested we sway as we sung it. The song and the choir choreography were foreign to that congregation. Our fears were not realized. It was accepted with only a few naysayers. But, we knew that change does not always come easily.
I know the feeling. I once suggested a more modern choir anthem to the choir director at our church at the time. She turned it down as it was "too much like rock." It wasn't but her bias toward classical music made her reject anthems that the congregation (later, after she quit) loved. Ministers, too, can contribute to an inflexible music style. One pastor who loved more modern music would not tell the music director that. Another one preferred Anglican style "smells and bells" worship services and his "classic music" music director fed that urge. We can only try to communicate and suggest.
Great explanation! I learned so much. Thanks!
Brilliant analysis of emotional engagement
Thank you for this music-based explanation.
My experience from leading contemporary worship for years and also participating "congregationally" for even more years, is:
1 - Leading worship is leading the congregation in worship of our holy, creator God.
2 - Melody-driven music is easier to pick up and follow (compared to groove-based music), especially if you have never heard the song before.
3 - Contemporary music (when groove-based) has many unexpected syncopations, inconsistent phrasing of the lyrics, and is just difficult for many average congregants. It leaves them behind. They no longer participate in the worship.
Conclusion: Melody-driven music is better for congregational worship whether it is contemporary or traditional in style. Leave the groove-based music for private worship and Christian performance, etc. Above all, pray and ask God what music He wants to praise Him. It is not really our choice. Cane brought the best he had to worship God, but God rejected it because it was not what He wanted, or required. It may not make sense to us, or be what we would choose. Let's make it God's choice as we worship Him.
There are real generational and experiential effects at play when we talk about what songs are easier to learn. A teenager immersed in contemporary music (Christian or otherwise) is used to to the “vocabulary” of groove-based composition, and come to expect it just as much as others expect the conventions of traditional music. Our brains are shaped by our listening experiences, and enjoy being exposed to familiar patterns. What’s easier for members of one culture to learn could be quite difficult for another.
Thanks for your view on this subject of Traditional Hymns VS Contemporary music. Our church about 15 years ago was having a similar battle. There were so many over 70 crowd that only wanted traditional Hymns. The pastor kept pushing that we should be mindful that the future of the church meant we needed to have music appealing to younger people if the church was to continue past the current generation of 70 year olds. Well thankfully Jesus Christ has lead us to at first a combination of traditional Hymns and new contemporary music. Now we are mostly contemporary music with hymns on special occasions. I think it has worked out well and now we have now many younger generations in the church. God does allow for changes if the congregation will use prayer in making a decision.
Thank you for explaining this in a way that a non-musician such as myself can understand. When I started attending a very large church about 15 years ago, I did recognize a very distinct difference in the structure than what I was used but couldn't quite put my finger on the why. Over time of course, I adapted. It also explains to me why so many younger musicians have told me they find they have trouble playing hymns.
I grew up in a Pentecostal church which had it's roots in the American South. While you did have people who would sight-read, you also had a lot of improvisation; sometimes bad but often very good. Since I am an alto with a limited range, that was perfect for me growing up. I listened to what I heard around me and figured out how to blend in. That was actually pretty common in my day.
I've seen comments that just having the words as opposed to also having the notation is bad but the reality is "back in the day", many in the congregation did NOT read music either! Sometimes the musicians themselves were completely self-taught as well. Despite that, it is interesting to note how many musical celebrities give credit to those little churches dotted across the country as being their musical heritage.
The church I attend is made up mostly of single young adults and young families so contemporary worship is the staple. Despite that, our very talented worship leaders, including our campus pastor, a former worship leader and musician himself, have made it clear that they love to hear this old-school alto voice on the front row weaving through their music. To them it is a successful blending of the old and new.
True worship is expressed from the heart of the worshipper and as we are not identical drones, it is not going to be expressed exactly the same way. I dearly love the old and I always will but I also love something fresh and new.
I believe that rather than criticize worship teams, we need to diligently pray for them. The enemy hates worship and will attempt to contaminate it but trying to inject pride in those on stage and a pharisee spirit into those who are offstage.
From a pastor, thank you, thank you!
In my opinion, the main problem with a lot of modern songs (or even hymns) is how they are performed and sung. The way it's performed makes a difference in whether it's about the person playing or singing, or about worshipping God. When the songs are sung in such a way as to draw attention to the performer, the beauty is removed and it's no longer about worship.
But so much of how you perceive the performance of a song is conditioned on your own limited perception. When you see someone "rocking out" it may not be to draw attention to themselves. People in different culture, subculture or generation might not interpret the same body language in the same way you do. We cannot judge hearts. Unless you personally know the worship leaders over a period of time and understand what they're all about, misperception is bound to happen.
💯 agree!
Amazing explanation, thank you!!!
I love both hymns and contemporary worship music, I've always listened to both on Christian radio. Until recently I've struggled to understand how worship music can be used in churches. But after listening to contemporary church services I think that it does work as well as hymns, as long as the primary focus is worshipping God while singing, also contemporary worship and gospel music is much more likely to get youth going to church as it's music they'll recognise.
This was very educational! Thank you so much!
Thank you, Brother for sharing this with us. I want to try to write my own worship songs and this is really helping me. Thank God He showed me your video on this.
When you write them please sing them at home. Gospel is the real deal.. Hezekiah walker and ever praise is a spinoff of sting..every breath you take... He should be ashamed of himself
Every praise
Weezer uses similar pauses in there song, “Say it ain’t so.” The final absence of this pause after the bridge makes the ending feel complete and scary, while it’s presence in the verses makes them more relaxing. It could have been in response to the writer’s father converting to the baptist church, as some of the lyrics are.
This is a great video and I love the goal of melding the hymn to contemporary worship songs. Chris Tomlin does that a lot, and I have a worship CD from Women of Faith that does that too. And enough with the idea of ‘old people like hymns’! I happen to be 64 and I love contemporary worship music! I grew up in the 60s with the Beatles, the 70s with the Bee Gees and the 80s with rock, hip-hop and disco, and I love it all! I am a fan of the metal group Red. Probably the only style of music that I don’t much care for is jazz, because there doesn’t seem to be a start, a middle, and an end. But again, that’s just my opinion.
This is a great analysis. I've never heard it explained so well! Thank you for showing the key differences and showing how all music can be used to worship Jesus. :)
Thank you for a very cogent and easy to understand explanation of what drives a modern worship song. I think this goes a long way towards explaining the lack of participation I see during the "worship" portion of so many churches (as I visit to try and find a home church).
I don’t think it necessarily explains anything. Any young person that sings along with music videos well knows how groove-driven music works, and will learn a new worship song just as quickly. :)
@@DavidWesley I wasn't thinking of issues learning the songs. What I see is that the music isn't engaging the worshippers. They chat, they read, they look at their phones, they fiddle with their coffee. I've seen this at multiple churches and, in fact, it's a major reason I'm having such a hard time finding a home church in a major metropolitan area. It's very discouraging.
A distraction to be sure, but I don’t think that has anything to do with music. They could be totally into the music but not capable of concentrating on one thing at a time. At home they consume music and message friends and do homework at the same time.
@@DavidWesley I could understand it (but not defend it) if it were just the young people, but it's not. Something is very wrong.
It’s not necessarily just young people. Anyone that’s become part of the smartphone generation is at risk of what’s essentially addictive behaviour. Again, I find it a very far reach to blame the music.
Spot on.
well done. thank you. this addresses some of the concerns from our older congregation. some of the contemporary songs we need repetition so that new songs can be learned. a screen with the words def. helps.
New songs need to be led confidently and introduced strategically. An unfamiliar style creates mental obstacles to learning, but they can be overcome when the motivation is there. What better motivation for a senior is there than "this music means so much to your grandkids"?
I love both hymns and contemporary worship music. I grew up mostly singing traditional hymns in church, and in my Christian college group we sing mostly contemporary, but sometimes we add traditional hymns in there too. So to me both are beautiful and add their own unique spin on worship.
Same for me as well.
Dave,
Great run down on the technical differences between hymns and CCM. I agree that knowing where to start singing in a CCM song can be awkward to people who are not familiar with the popular CCM songs that are sung in churches. I would hasten to add though that the core of the debate is not style so much as the origin and philosophy behind the CCM movement. The other cause for angst is the trend in churches to eventually eradicate or severely minimize hymns (sung and played in the traditional manner) when they decide to incorporate CCM. The pattern that I have witnessed in our Baptist churches goes like this: Traditional to Blended (60% Hymns/40% CCM) to Blended (60% CCM/40% Hymns) to CCM totally. Thanks for sharing and keep up the great work! 🙂
I wasn’t trying to encapsulate the entire debate, just pointing out an objective structural difference that has consequences for congregations. It’s also a big reason why teams of musicians will struggle with one or the other. It’s not always reasonable to expect worship teams to be able to switch back and forth easily. A guest speaker wants me to so Victory in Jesus for a closing song this coming Sunday. I am rather unenthusiastic about it…
@@DavidWesley Yep. So true. Thanks for the reply. 🙂
This breakdown is fascinating. I stumbled upon it while researching why it's so difficult to find the time signature in traditional hymns when just listening. If I was to transcribe some of those tunes, I'd change meter for many of the measures. This explanation of melody vs groove based songs helps me come to terms with it, haha.
When I do new arrangements of hymns, I occasionally have to throw in bars of a different meter to get things to work properly. For example, the “sand” at the end of the chorus of The Solid Rock needs to be on beat 1 unless immediately doing a repeat of the chorus.
@@DavidWesley Does that mean you extend the word "sinking" to make "sand" line up with 1?
Love it. I hear a lot of trashing of modern worship music, and always thought it unfair as well. I love it all!
Modern trash devoid of feeling
Excellent video. Thank you.
Very well done explanation!
Very on point discussion.Sing whatever you want to sing(traditional hymns or contemporary songs).The only measure of true worship in singing is intention of the mind and heart.
This is true, but singing together corporately requires some tools to make it work. It’s only a difference in approach to those tools that this video is about - neither is good or bad.:)
Thanks so much, This really helps
In contemporary music you have some very Biblical styles and artists like Sovereign Grace and Keith and Kristyn Getty. You also have some more liberal adaptations of hymns such as To You O God All Creatures Sing, Creator of the Intertwined, God of the Women, As with Gladness Those of Old. Two of these are adaptations which are used in the New Century Hymnal, which is used by the United Church of Christ.
Excellent video! Better than many of your others that only talk. Thank you David for this instructional and DEMONSTRATIVE (I hate the first part of this word but I can't think of a more descriptive word) video. It helps. When you only explain or talk, that's monotone. But when you sing, play and display the parts of the song in notes/lyrics, that's video in stereo, & the quality if light is like comparing sunlight to tungsten bulbs. And I haven't heard the song "And Can It Be" for over 50 years (vacation Bible school as a child--not in my church's hymnal)!! If you had just explained it, I would've never remembered this old hymn. And you sang even this teeny part so well, I wish you'd sing the whole song! GOD bless & have a great day!
Ha! DEMONstrative. :) I was up until almost 3am recording this one, so I'm glad the extra effort was worthwhile. It really is a topic I'm passionate about. I've seen too much harm done by people that handle it poorly!
😀😀
Etymologically the word "demonstrative" has nothing to do with "demon". I am sure you know that.
I get your point though. 😀
My feeling is that the traditional melody based is focused on the singer and the contemporary has an increased focus on the accompanying music. I've enjoyed both but personally prefer the traditional due to the focus on the singer. The introduction with the base melody prepares you. With many hymns having different words set to the same melody it is easier to pick up. I would love to see the traditional melody based using set with contemporary words and insight
I can appreciate that sentiment. However, when I examine what young people are listening to, they pick up and memorize these songs sooo quickly. The accompaniment (a “hook” or groove) is often an important and memorable part of that. They learn through repeated listening, and rhythms that might not come naturally to older folks roll right off their tongues. It’s a culture shift, and not necessarily a bad one.
Awesome ...clear explanation... Thanks
I have no musical talent whatsoever but you made it so clear that if you don't understand something is wrong with you. I like both and do agree, hymns or contemporary whichever you use just worship God and don't focus so much on the people that sing it. Now if they are obviously me me me then turn your back and move along.
I never knew this before!
Nuuu, dead space! XD Far too many times did a single individual in my congregation start singing before it was time because of confusing dead space
I love both and both speak to me at different times. For a long time,I felt guilty about going to a contemporary service most of the time and then for advent, Easter and Palm Sunday going traditional. But I don’t think God cares and I’ve come to a point where I’m more annoyed with someone who insists that one way is correct.
So informative!
Music that is melody based has more opportunity to harmonize. They are easier to sing and remember because they are based on the melody not a beat or rhythm. Your talk just made me feel more strongly about using hymns that people can remember and sing in their worship of God throughout the week, not just at church. When my dad lost most of his memory, he could still sing all the verses of the hymns of the faith that he had sung and directed in our church for years.
Your first assertion isn’t quite true. You could have a groove-based song with the exact same vocal melody and harmony. This video was about the underlying structure, and not really about what people are actually singing. There is plenty of room for harmony in modern songs!
No matter which type of music a church chooses to employ for it’s congregational worship, the choice of worship leader is paramount. Paul the Apostle said, don’t lay hands on anyone too quickly - meaning, don’t employ anyone into ministry before you know them or before they have proved their ministry capabilities and heart before God (which is most important of all). Churches who let anyone with a modicum of musical ability without vetting or testing them over time, regardless of age and experience, are making serious concessions and inviting controversy and trouble. Spiritual maturity is the MOST IMPORTANT character trait for a worship leader! Young people have all the energy, time and enthusiasm to be worship leaders, but they rarely ever have the spiritual maturity to avoid the pitfall of pride. A worship leader is for the sole purpose of leading a group of untrained singers in worship of God. We don’t even train people to do this. We just put them up there because they can sing loud and strong. We put them in the position of being a target for the Enemy to use to destroy the unity of the Body. This is no small matter. Without huge prayer covering, we are putting a huge target on their backs for great pride to take hold too. Maybe we have to take a step back and ask if we are doing things correctly at all? Why not put the worship teams behind the congregation like many churches used to? Why put them up front to be glorified and honored more than the Lord we are singing to? The temptation for pride is just too great for us to be willy-nilly about. I know because I’ve been there and I don’t want to fall into that trap again. Here’s a test. Look around and see who is singing. If there are very few actually singing, the worship leader is failing. Period.
What you say is true, but it doesn’t engage at all with the content of my video... It could have been cut and pasted into the comments of any video!
@@DavidWesley, with all due respect, it could have been, but it wasn’t. I spent a while composing that comment for you and your audience to consider. It is based on my observations from years of church-going and playing on worship teams, as well as my most recent experiences going to a new church. So why did you dismiss it so readily? Yes, but…is not a discussion. Please consider making a video about this topic if it is something truly important for churches and worship leaders to know. Not many do.
Wonderful video! I've been trying to figure out a way to explain the stylistic differences to my 14 year old son, but I'm not familiar enough with music theory, etc to really know the answer myself! We have recently moved and our previous church was more traditional in hymns and choruses. We love them, and our new church's music is contemporary. It threw us for a loop for a while. They sing a hymn in the service on a regular, if not weekly, basis, but it's usually got a modern riff (that's what you called it I think?) added in. I do wish we sang more hymns, but our music pastor does an amazing job with the worship. At first I didn't know many songs we sang at all, but I've found that we repeat certain songs more often until we learn them. He will often introduce new songs through the choir or worship team singing it first one week, then the congregation singing it in worship the next. I felt awkward, uncomfortable, and distracted at first with the unfamiliar style of worship, and my son still prefers hymns, but I'm hoping he will realize the distinction between style preference and something being "wrong " with contemporary music. Lately, I have found God using the words to these new songs that I've learned to minister to my heart in ways I never imagined when we first came to this church. I still don't enjoy a lot of the songs on the local Christian radio station; they really do seem too repetitious with certain words or phrases, or sometimes I feel like every song sounds about the same as the last one they played. But when Pastor Jonathan does what he does, he limits the repeats, reads Scripture to introduce the songs, emphasizes God's attributes, etc. He radiates the heart of worship, and I am blessed. Thank you for teaching this. I will be showing it to my son!
Thanks for sharing. I do encourage people to pay little attention to Christian radio. What you hear there is a tiny fraction of new Christian songs, and ones that meet a formula for making a “hit.” And what you hear on the radio is simply one way to perform the song. I definitely don’t wear people out with endless repeats!
One of the things I love about traditional hymns, And Can it Be? my favorite, is they tell a story from the first to last verse. My only problem w/ Scripture songs isn't the songs themselves. It is most of the churches I've preached in have totally abandoned the hymns. Tomorrow is Easter and there are churches, including the one I attend, that will not sing, Christ the Lord is Risen Today.
There were Easter services before that hymn was written, so clearly it’s not requisite for a proper service!🤣
I know the Bible talks about having skilled musicians so this is informative but isn't it crazy that we are even having this conversation at all? We are talking about worship. (Defined as: The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity.) Like mentioned in the beginning of the video, this is an emotional topic and needs to be discussed, but it still blows my mind that we have to have this conversation at all.
I agree that the arguments are unpleasant, but this video is about structural differences- not which is superior. ;)
I think there's a bit more drilling down needed to get to the big difference. It's not that hymns are "melody first," it's that they are largely "words first." The music we commonly sing with "A Mighty Fortress" likely isn't the original music. In many cases, the music was wrapped around the words. "Just As I Am" is another example. There are times when words are applied to existing music, but the reason that works is because that music was probably originally wrapped around a different set of words, and the same regular metrical structure allows a new set of words to be applied. It's quite common for the lyricist and composer to be completely different people. So hymns come across as "melody first" because the first thing a composer has to do is figure out what to do with the words that are in front of them, which are primarily handled in the melody.
As a composer myself who collaborates with lyricists in a way that is similar to hymn writing centuries ago, I might have some harmonic ideas when I write music for a given text, but I have to figure out how to get to those harmonic ideas melodically.
In contrast, a lot of contemporary music is "music first." Often, the words and music spring forth together. You can see this in songs where the verse is little more than spoken word layered over music (The A section of the verse of "Thrive" comes to mind). The songs center around musical moments and getting from musical moment to musical moment.
One is not necessarily better or worse than the other. There are really bad hymns and really good contemporary songs (and vice versa). The hymn style of writing may have an advantage in conveying content because it tends to be words first, music second (as opposed to words often being written to fit around a musical notion, which can get awkward), but neither is guaranteed to be "good."
Thanks for your input. I disagree with the “words first” idea, as that ignores centuries of melismatic music, up to and including the “Gloria” portion of Angels We Have Heard On High.” I’m not referring at all to how songs are composed but how they are structured as performances - this is what’s most relevant in a worship service.
Contemporary music also has more independence between the melody and the accompaniment, which can have layers of rhythm and syncopation that are very different in complexity and energy. You can have furious guitar strumming supporting very slow singing, or even the reverse. Syncopated melody over a straight accompaniment - or vice versa.
I love my local church but I do wish we would go back and forth between the 2 styles (Traditional and Modern). I feel like I’m missing out on a lot of classics. Hearing the same songs that come on CC radio cheapens church a bit though we change up arrangement certainly. I’m not sure what I would be asking for the musician to do when I suggest some traditional music. I know it’s not the most important thing by any stretch.
Personally a lot of CC music has fallen out of favor with me due to the repetitious nature and to the same extent because we’re trying to emulate a particular version sometimes it cheapens the music for me.
I like all styles of music generally.
Every congregation must find their own balance between fresh and familiar, simple and complicated, serious and lighthearted. Because of the differences in composition styles, not every praise band will be able to do both styles well, which is one reason they may stray away from hymns. I definitely don't go to Christian radio to find new songs to sing!
Yep, pretty hard to have mystic sweet communion with those whose rest is won if you throw out everything (musically and liturgically) that is more than 15 years old.
I came here after watching the Distraction Dilemma series by Christian Berdahl. My sons have really gotten into your music and I am not sure what to make of it. I do appreciate the way you take songs that are way too rambunctious and tone them down a bit. But...Too many thoughts.
Thank you for taking the time to share your perspective.
Rambunctious?
@@DavidWesley Yes. Rambunctious. Am I using the word incorrectly? Either way, we are all sitting in our living room enjoying your version of the songs.
God loves all music dedicated to Him. If it’s sung/played from the heart, he’s happy.
The thing I have with some of the new music, it is that it doesn't focus on the people that are the actual performers of worship. The performers are the congregation, the audience is God. This was an epiphany during this video ... "dead space" can (for a mature Christian) something that can be filled with prayer, but worship is active. It is not watching someone else "perform" it is the individual performing the worship to God.
Not that I don't like some contemporary music in worship ... I do. But I would say that those that have *any* dead space are not where they need to be. Putting a background vocal in so that the instruments are not central to any part of the worship song I would call critical to a congregational worship element. The only time I can see having non-participatory points in music during worship is time that is inherently prayer time. But then I'd want that to be such that the person is in fact praying, not distracted by music ... even if the music is there and is a work of great beauty.
But to sum it up ... If God is the audience, and the congregation is the performers, the music needs to be structured around that completely.
Praise and worship is like listening to a peter,Paul and Mary concert!
Great video
Very good my friend
I think that the real driving force in most hymns is its theology but I get your point with being melody driven. Part of your point there however is what I call coherence. That is that the music (not just the melody) is complementary to the text. You might say that the hymns are typically text driven with the music designed (at least in the good ones) to reinforce the text.
Part of the problem with groove based songs is that it almost unavoidably puts the focus on a band performance rather than the word sung. It is true that an accompaniment for a traditional hymn can be made to detract from the vocal message or lesson through over ornementation but in the contemporary choruses it is essentially built in IMO.
I was speaking solely about composition style. There are modern melody-driven songs as well, and the divide isn’t always clean cut. There certainly are potential stumbling blocks with either approach, but “unavoidable” is a bit much...
@@DavidWesley Well I did say almost. ;) Yes I would say that a lot of the music from say the Getty's is written as a modern hymn and does have the coherence and sing-ability of classic hymns.
There’s a lot more than just the Gettys. I would put most of their stuff in the melody-driven category, but they use meter conventions of modern.
@@DavidWesley Yes, I agree. I just used them as a most obvious example. One of the great things about their music is that in most cases the music is very sing-able and usually can be successfully harmonized. Being essentially a contra-bass voice I find the latter quite important. So much of the CCM requires one to be either a tenor or soprano with the foundation coming strictly from the electric bass.
I attended a number of worship conferences mostly in 80's and early 90's and at that time the difference between hymns and choruses were that hymns were often written when people didn't read or have access to material so they are full of teaching and theology were as the choruses were more relationship focused.
Another issue that maybe hinders modern writers is the old hymn writer used tunes that people knew. This can be seen way back to the Psalms that some have notes about the tune to use. Many hymns picked up tunes that were used outside of church as people would go out and sing more than they do now. Also the metre marks in hymnals show were tunes can be exchanged. These days if you took a popular tune and set words to it and published it you'd get the copyright lawyers down on you. And we don't have the culture of that public singing with simple tunes now so don't have that library of freely used tunes.
There are still loads of public domain tunes out there! As for copyright, it's enshrined in the U.S. constitution. Just as important as the second amendment. :) But I'm Canadian, and we respect copyright out of our infinite politeness!
As long as the worship team feel fulfilled and enjoy the experience it doesn’t really matter that the rest of us feel a little lost.
I heartily disagree. Servant leaders are there to serve the greater body. Not pander, mind you, but serve. That means the congregation needs to stretch and grow at times, but not to be lost.
An example of God's perfect plan is Psalms. Songs preserved without music. I'm a firm believer that music is written from the sounds we're surrounded by. Listen to contemporary music, written post industrial, and contemporary to the electronic and digital age. You can hear the rhythms of what we are surrounded by. Hymns, many written prior to industrial noise, have that vocal melody first I believe cause there was not any of those rhythmic sounds we here today in life. I agree that there is no moral significance from one Era to another. I do believe that expressing music with the sounds that surround us does ad energy to our expression.
I enjoy and worship through both styles of music. I find it easier to sing with the traditional hymns because you know what to expect, even if the leader skips a verse. It is a little bit harder to sing along with contemporary music because you never know when the worship leader will add a riff. It’s so embarrassing to be singing at the top of your lungs when the band all of a sudden adds a few bars of groove! It’s even worse when they change the key while doing it! I am singing to God, but I wish that I could be in all of the rehearsals so that I would know what changes they made!🤪
It’s the difference between the writing and the execution of contemporary worship music that is tripping you up, more a function of the church/tradition you’re talking about than the songs themselves. There are many, many churches that will do contemporary songs in straight, predictable ways!
As others have pointed out, traditional music is oriented around the congregation and contemporary music is oriented around the performer. That being the case, those leading contemporary music believe that it is OK to make any changes and any time, just because they feel like it. Those leading traditional music know that they must stick to the way the music is traditionally performed or the congregation will revolt. This is why it is such a grating experience when a contemporary worship group tries to lead a traditional hymn. They feel that they can change the tempo and phrasing to suit themselves, independent of how the hymn is traditionally sung.
Have you ever read about Fanny Crosby? Wrote some of the most beloved and beautiful hymns, and that woman had some big issues!😬 As I have in my life & God's love never fails, never gives up, nerver runs out on me! I'm just saying... there's definitely two sides as their is to literally EVERYTHING, every story, argument, every issue. Until we walk in someone else's shoes...we don't know everything! David, this was very well said at the beginning & what a nice descriptive job of not lashing out in PERSONAL preference, attacking the opposite (which is not always wrong) in life! The main thing is that we acknowledge if we are God's children WE are the church, and the church shouldn't lose sight as to why we are here! I believe when we disagree so much, we can't be that light 😊
Not saying that's happening here, just chiming in ;)
I know a lot of work went into this video- thank you for doing this & sharing! :)
Here is an observation from one who's church congregation sings mostly acapella. Hymns are designed to be sung in 4 part harmony. Hymns stand up well when sung acapella. Hymns are usually structured more simply to cater to congregational singing.
That’s basically the point of the video, though the harmony is an added bonus to the song structure. The thing is, contemporary songs with a structure that exists beyond the singing puts that singing within a greater context. It’s like a stained-glass window on its own vs in context on the wall of a gothic stone church. The window is great, but the window dressing adds something of its own.
God is found in silence and stillness. Music should direct one to that place within; not simply stimulate emotions. Inspired music transcends language, culture and religion. This is captured in comments where people say that they do not understand the language and are not of the faith yet the music calms their spirit, speaks to their soul.
Hello David! I love your work and the exposure you’ve gotten thus far. Question for you: are you classically trained?
Not really! Most formative musical training was in a marching band.
David Wesley nice! That’s awesome bro - I know some friends who were trained via marching band as well. They’re great musicians
God will protect you from those firery darts📖🤺
Sounds like you read In Tune With God by Dr. Lillian Doukhan or she read you. Great explanation. Thanks!
Don’t think I’ve heard of it.
Very revealing
How so? You found the analysis of the structural differences helpful?
They have to tell a pianist how to do an intro? Wow! I was church pianist for decades, & I simply knew how to do it, from hearing the previous church pianist do it. It’s intuitive, & doesn’t need to be highlighted or anything. Then again, our church sang both hymns & worship choruses. The church I go to now never sings hymns. I go there because the Word is preached, but I worship in song at home before I go, as they only perform one song. That’s the extent of the singing, & the music is so loud that I can’t tell if anyone in the audience is singing or not. It’s truly sad.
I didn’t say the intro *had* to be marked off or used, just that it’s a helpful hint. As for the volume of music, that’s completely irrelevant to this video, I’m afraid. I’m only speaking about structure of songwriting. There is no need to perform either style in an obnoxious or unhelpful manner. I also think personal worship time helps people get over frustration with style issues in corporate worship. Unfortunately, most people don’t take the time to do that, so they can get really vexed when they don’t get “fed” musically.
I think the important thing to recognize here is that neither of these styles is better or worse than the other. It is all worship. I do think in many cases the tradition of the congregation singing along with the music leaders has died off where CCM is more prominent, but is that a good or a bad thing? It depends on how you like to worship. The older generations grew up singing out of the hymn book but the younger generations have grown up either singing along and knowing all the pauses or they just worship to the music without singing along with it. Neither is inferior or superior, just preference. The modern church is full of talented musicians that love to play more musically centered songs and it's far better for us to have a place to worship and play our instruments in new and challenging ways than for us to have no outlet because people prefer hymns. A church with a healthy mixture of young and old patrons should have a healthy mixture of young and old music.
Many people commenting on this video miss the fact that groove-based contemporary songs can have very easy and memorable melodies. The example I give in the video is “Today” by Brian Doerksen, in which the melody is slow and the accompaniment provides nearly all the energy. And what people forget is that there were hundreds of years before the invention of the hymn book, singing in worship services was also not very participatory - chant leaders and choirs doing the heavy lifting. I appreciate your acceptance of both schools.
@@DavidWesley indeed a lot of samples from both styles (which is a bit broad since there are a wide variety of styles in both hymns and ccm) can be simple and complex, but hymn music only really lends itself to melodic instruments such as piano and organ and only rudimentary drums and maybe guitar but certainly traditionally only the piano and organ and maybe a tambourine were used for many years in churches.
Ah, but hymns can be converted to groove-based arrangements and performed in a number of different ways!
Maybe you have already answered this, but I didn't hear it clearly explained in the video and haven't seen it in the comments I have looked at so far. What exactly does the "groove" in "groove-based" refer to? All I could think of was the expression from the '60s of certain things being "groovy" (both music and a lot of other things) and the way I understood that doesn't seem to fit this. If that's it, how does this fit? If it's something else, what is it?
I used a few different words besides “groove” to explain. Basically, it means that the rhythm and feel of the accompaniment structures and powers the song instead of strictly the melody.
A nice presentation and examples. Over the years I have transitioned from preferring traditional church music with a pipe organ to preferring piano accompaniment to now preferring a blend of styles of worship music that has room for both hymn arrangements and unique contemporary music.
For me, one irritation of _some_ contemporary music is that they do not use a "circle of fifths" and often end on an unresolved chord. It's as though the song "should" continue but doesn't. (facepalm). LOL. Also, some contemporary music seems written by a beginning composer and lacks a memorable melody or is hard to harmonize to (a desire of mine). I prefer songs that are easy to harmonize with and that leave me wanting to hum them as I leave the worship service.
That same type of "not memorable" song occurs in many hymns, too, so that's not just related to contemporary music.
One of the problems with contemporary music that I see as "weak" may be that local "amateur" musicians are creating their own music to avoid copyright issues for televised or videos of the music. Churches with low budgets may have funds to buy the licenses needed for display and video recording of copyrighted music.
The memorability of music is very much dependent on the kind of music already engraved into your brain. The average teenager that is immersed in contemporary music will find the syncopated rhythms quite easy to remember.
@@DavidWesley Thx for the quick reply. "Memorable' (to me) has less to do with syncopation (which I enjoy), but more to due to what I feel is a great melody, especially one that has chording that stirs me. My bias likely comes from years of 4-part harmony (choral and quartet) singing. I itch to sing harmony and for a "I want to sing that again!" feeling. Many contemporary worship sings fill that need (for me); some just don't.
I do continue to attend a church with contemporary music, though, and the exact style and "quality" of the songs don't affect my desire to attend.
Our brains are shaped by repeated exposure to stimuli, so even our notion of “quality” depends so much on experience. Others might resonate more with clever rhymes, “sick beats,” or other qualities of songs that other might not even notice. I’m grateful for people that are able to look past their preferences and not label everything else as inherently trash. :)