I've always liked Saru and found him to be the most convincing depiction of an alien crew member we have ever seen in Star Trek. This is largely due to Doug Jones and his amazing work at portraying strange beings.
I loved the mannerisms he gave Saru, like the very odd posture and the way Saru's arms slowly sway behind him when he walks. It just really helps to break up the "Man in a suit" feel of most sci-fi aliens
One of the issues with the octopus I've heard is many species lifecycles basically end in the birthing process, and they are often solitary creatures on top of that leading to the lack of conditions needed to incentivize more advanced language and communication. On the upside, they've started finding more examples of "communal" living in octopus as of late, so perhaps they end up breaking free and advancing someday as well.
The dying right after mating is really the killer to their development. They show how evolution is just so messy and up to chance. Our eyes have clear design flaws that theirs lack. And we have reproductive advantages they lack. It would be fascinating to see what would happen if some future geneticists altered octopus to survive past mating.
I remember thinking the "binary food chain" concept was pretty dumb when Saru first mentioned it. And if I understand the reveal right I like that show was purposefully baiting nerds like me with impractical biology. Well done discovery.
If I'm remembering basically the twist was that the "binary food system" was basically propaganda by the ba'ul to maintain their oppressive regime? It's very much based/similar to the future humans in "The Time Machine"
Maybe aquatic species developed metals technologies,and/or other technologies, through the use of ionic manipulation, rather than thermal manipulation. One of the characteristics of chemistry is the use of liquid and gaseous solutions, as well as ionic and valence manipulation. Heat plays a role, but is not always the sole determinent.
Not to mention Star Trek is full to the brim with telephatic creatures, Outright manifested thoughts in the form of energy, Q.. They simply could be highly telephatic and evolved in a way we never could.
There's some small things to like about discovery. And this species is about it. The rest is trash, I gave it til 3rd season as that's pretty much the golden rule of star trek, as that's when it gets good from. But... It just doesn't.
Personally I kinda liked it better when the Kelpiens were purely prey species. We have this idea that prey are helpless and cowardly, but in reality they are actually quite dangerous. The most dangerous big game animals in Africa, the Big Five, are the lion, the rhino, the hippo, the elephant, and the water buffalo. Note that only ONE of them is a predator. So having a prey species being a physical threat was rather a nice touch for me. On the other hand, we do have some foreshadowing that Saru's species were actually predators: their eyes. Prey species have eyes on the sides of their heads to give them a wide view of vision and detect incoming threats, whereas predators have eyes on the fronts of their heads to give them depth perception so they can gauge when and where to attack. As Saru had eyes on the front of his head, and thus binocular vision, this indicated that he has excellent depth perception. As for the Ba'ul, I think it's possible that they are actually more akin to octopi, with their humanoid forms being a form of mimicry. They cluster the majority of their tentacles underneath them to support themselves out of water, and curl and extend tentacles to mimic hands and fingers. As for how they can speak, perhaps this is their mouthparts clicking and hissing more than anything else. I wonder if they'd look different IN the water.
The whole prey/predator eyes thing is a only a very rough rule. Gorillas have forward eyes but they arent predators, and sharks have side eyes but are predators. It's not as solid as many people suggest it to be.
a fine video. you reminded me of an old TOS novel (paperback; i sadly don't remember the title) in which another world had two sapients on it...the deepwater/openwater intelligence was a revelation to the reader halfway or so through the book; Spock determined that the other ones, who had asked for Starfleet's (or Enterprise's) help, was not native to the planet for this reason: they had hooves built for open plains, when what little dry land the planet had, was mountainous.
The difference is, Ba'ul are a spacefaring race in a similar vein to Klingons. We know Star Fleet despised the Klingon Empire's guts for nearly two centuries before they finally made an unstable alliance against a common threat. Ba'ul are doing the same thing that Klingons were doing to natives. Also remember this show *should* be during the same timeframe where James T. Kirk will be raised from. A timeframe in the quadrant where if Federation didnt find you, other powers would and pretty much enslave your entire race. We know Star Fleet had a ''carry a big stick'' policy during his time, So it makes sense they would interfere.
I assume the Ba'ul didn't want to colonize other worlds because they didn't want to become the interest of other species who could possibly upset the Great Balance. Or perhaps, they were doing the Galaxy a favor by curbing the Kelpiens. It is very interesting that two races have very different biology.
Outstanding video. I love when Star Trek moves away from bipedal humanoids and the deep back story of these two species is fascinating. I will just take issue with you one one thing: being a prey species by FAR does not give you an evolutionary pressure that leads to rapid advancement. The vast majority of prey simply get eaten or become extinct. Changing evolutionary niches is exceedingly rare.
advantage? like surviving? "get an evolutionary advantage from being prey" is like getting an evolutionary advantage from having as many legs as everything else in the ecosystem - moot
@@keenirr5332 I think you must be wilfully trying to misunderstand. An evolutionary advantage is something that confers a benefit in the survival of the fittest arms races. The term is a misnomer though. Merely surviving is not enough. A species muse thrive. Being at the bottom of the food chain does not automatically promote the evolution that leads to thriving, as the dodo would attest.. if it still existed.
@@Martial-Mat why must a species thrive? >An evolutionary advantage is something that confers a benefit in the survival of the fittest arms races. by that logic, everything that is either neutral or non-harmful is a benefit, because it allows the species to survive further in the arms races. most frogs and cod release hundreds of eggs, yet only a dozen at most from each laying survive to adulthood -- with all the species of each group, clearly that means they are all thriving, even if each species is numbers-poor. the dodo was far from the bottom of its respective food chain; and it WAS thriving...til rats ate their eggs.
I'd take exception to your mention of octupi here. Mollusca are held back SOLELY by their short lifespan. If they lived longer, we likely never would have gotten a chance to evolve.
Wouldn't the Kelpians be in danger of becoming a food-source for the Celestaceans ('space whales' from ST:IV movie)? Oh wait, they eat Krill, not Kelp, so it would be the Krillians that would be screwed. 😅
Discovery had a lot of really interesting and good ideas. It just never followed through on anything. It's like they took the JJ Abrams book of storytelling. Great ideas, looks good, terrible execution
Spoiler alert for season 3 of Discovery: I head-canoned that the Ba’ul had a special time-travel based knowledge of the evil that would eventually endanger the galaxy if the Kelpians escaped their grasp. That it wasn’t malice but foreknowledge that kept them insular and keeping Kelpians in check. I was thinking that could happen before the end of season 2. I abandoned the idea after the season finale. Then we discovered the source of the burn. My new head-canon became that their original solution was no longer needed once Burnham jumped forward and set in motion the chain of events that would undo the damage caused by the Kelpian on the dilithium planet. In a way this would mirror Picard season 1’s plot against synthetic life being instigated by prophetic visions. My original expectation was that Burnham would have to sacrifice herself and collapse the timeline we witnessed, because she was the hub to her mother’s time-manipulations that set these changes in motion.
It's beyond tragic that history and current events reveal how humans exploit, oppress, or even massacre fellow human beings of a different race. It's frightening to consider a contemporary world where different kinds of humanoid species existed.
i still think the custom designers and/or writers of Discovery messed up the Ba'ul.....are we sure they are not related to the grease stain that killed Tasha Yar?
While STD is really bad. Saru was the most interesting new character and I wish he was the main character of the show. It would be very interesting to see the dynamic of an alien, whom is in a objectively submissive role on his planet, have to become accustom to being in a dominant leadership position, which is more of a predator trait. It's such a interesting idea that STD never really took advantage of, but that's why the show is bad. It never delved into ideas beyond a surface level, because the action plot had to plot. Granted I gave up on the show at season two. I couldn't put up with the high school characters that surrounded Saru and Pike anymore.
For me, Discovery remains one of the weakest shows in the franchise because the writing was generally mediocre. However, I agree with you that the Kelpians were among the most interesting elements of the show, and this was certainly helped by Doug Jones' strong work.
Yet again, talking of things you don't know anything about. Firstly there is no evidence sabertooth were hunting (pre)humans, and especially there is no evidence they did to such an extent it influenced our evolution. Secondly, predators usually have bigger brains than their preys... and just because you're the one being eaten it doesn't mean evolutionary pressures are any lower. It all depends on hunting success; specific ecological niches and the number and variety of preys. if jackals, hyenas and small cats are extremely successful, cheetahs on the other hand suck hard and risk death by exhaustion constantly. Thirdly we know that in the wild, great apes, of which we are part of, by and large are NOT preyed uppon, except by humans. Predation does not make for any significant proportion of deaths.
"Yet again, talking of things you don't know anything about" Oh so this is a consistent "problem" you've had with my content? Have you never spoken up before? I'm sorry, Professor! 1) The mentioning of cats was purely as an example -- the point is that, whether they did or not (because they might have), cats being predators didn't mean they were predisposed for intelligence 2) Having a bigger brain doesn't automatically matter either -- it's about proximity of neuronal connections. And I explicitly did not say evolutionary pressure was lower on prey, but it's often the opposite (although obviously it depends on a case-by-case basis) 3) Okay, good for the other great apes. Our ancestors were still occasionally hunted by other animals, mostly reptiles. You're publicly subscribed to me, but the tone of your comment shows such disdain for me as a commentator...why are you here again??? Lol
Thanks for new video. I like the addition of these aliens in Discovery. Discovery had some really cool ideas but the overall execution was a little meh.
How about no bad habits instead of supporting less bad habits, I don’t support any channel that allows addictive behavior rewarded as though it’s less harm. No different than the 4 ever Plastics that live in every human and is in every breathe you take, and DuPont has been allowed to get away with genocide, as they scientists found out their is not a human on earth from the remotest village in Tibet, to the remotest village in the Amazon every human now has these forever plastics and they are most concentrated in the pubic area as this area has one of the most concentrated areas of blood vessels. So this company is allowed to end mankind without a government intervention protecting us….
Go to tryfum.com/ORANGERIVER or scan the QR code and use code ORANGERIVER to get your free FÜM Base when you order your Journey Pack today.
I've always liked Saru and found him to be the most convincing depiction of an alien crew member we have ever seen in Star Trek. This is largely due to Doug Jones and his amazing work at portraying strange beings.
I loved the mannerisms he gave Saru, like the very odd posture and the way Saru's arms slowly sway behind him when he walks. It just really helps to break up the "Man in a suit" feel of most sci-fi aliens
One of the issues with the octopus I've heard is many species lifecycles basically end in the birthing process, and they are often solitary creatures on top of that leading to the lack of conditions needed to incentivize more advanced language and communication. On the upside, they've started finding more examples of "communal" living in octopus as of late, so perhaps they end up breaking free and advancing someday as well.
The dying right after mating is really the killer to their development. They show how evolution is just so messy and up to chance. Our eyes have clear design flaws that theirs lack. And we have reproductive advantages they lack. It would be fascinating to see what would happen if some future geneticists altered octopus to survive past mating.
Read "Children of Time" by Adrian Tchaikovsky
I remember thinking the "binary food chain" concept was pretty dumb when Saru first mentioned it. And if I understand the reveal right I like that show was purposefully baiting nerds like me with impractical biology.
Well done discovery.
If I'm remembering basically the twist was that the "binary food system" was basically propaganda by the ba'ul to maintain their oppressive regime?
It's very much based/similar to the future humans in "The Time Machine"
Doug Jones! That man has dabbled in so many genres and roles, that his talent seriously impresses me.
Maybe aquatic species developed metals technologies,and/or other technologies, through the use of ionic manipulation, rather than thermal manipulation. One of the characteristics of chemistry is the use of liquid and gaseous solutions, as well as ionic and valence manipulation. Heat plays a role, but is not always the sole determinent.
Not to mention Star Trek is full to the brim with telephatic creatures, Outright manifested thoughts in the form of energy, Q..
They simply could be highly telephatic and evolved in a way we never could.
It's always cool to see new aliens in Star Trek.
Even if I don't like the show overall, I'm glad we can agree that this alien species is awesome.
There's some small things to like about discovery. And this species is about it.
The rest is trash, I gave it til 3rd season as that's pretty much the golden rule of star trek, as that's when it gets good from. But... It just doesn't.
Personally I kinda liked it better when the Kelpiens were purely prey species. We have this idea that prey are helpless and cowardly, but in reality they are actually quite dangerous. The most dangerous big game animals in Africa, the Big Five, are the lion, the rhino, the hippo, the elephant, and the water buffalo. Note that only ONE of them is a predator. So having a prey species being a physical threat was rather a nice touch for me.
On the other hand, we do have some foreshadowing that Saru's species were actually predators: their eyes. Prey species have eyes on the sides of their heads to give them a wide view of vision and detect incoming threats, whereas predators have eyes on the fronts of their heads to give them depth perception so they can gauge when and where to attack. As Saru had eyes on the front of his head, and thus binocular vision, this indicated that he has excellent depth perception.
As for the Ba'ul, I think it's possible that they are actually more akin to octopi, with their humanoid forms being a form of mimicry. They cluster the majority of their tentacles underneath them to support themselves out of water, and curl and extend tentacles to mimic hands and fingers. As for how they can speak, perhaps this is their mouthparts clicking and hissing more than anything else. I wonder if they'd look different IN the water.
The whole prey/predator eyes thing is a only a very rough rule. Gorillas have forward eyes but they arent predators, and sharks have side eyes but are predators. It's not as solid as many people suggest it to be.
Doug Jones did an awesome job bringing the character (and species) to life
I always wondered if Armus is Ba’ul
Armus was created by another species as the repository of all their negative emotions.
a fine video. you reminded me of an old TOS novel (paperback; i sadly don't remember the title) in which another world had two sapients on it...the deepwater/openwater intelligence was a revelation to the reader halfway or so through the book; Spock determined that the other ones, who had asked for Starfleet's (or Enterprise's) help, was not native to the planet for this reason: they had hooves built for open plains, when what little dry land the planet had, was mountainous.
Mr Saru was the only reason I watched Discovery. I want the Saru Cut.
I would love to see someone go back and reedit discovery to give it cohesion and pacing.
bring back the sheliak!
We need to see the first Sheliak to join Starfleet
@@chrisunruh8217Tactical first.
Agreed.
The Ba'oul make me think of Armus from Skin of Evil.
Me too.
What Starfleet did to the Ba'ul is so morally amd ethically reprehensible that it makes what Archer did to Una's ancestors look like a picnic lunch.
The difference is, Ba'ul are a spacefaring race in a similar vein to Klingons.
We know Star Fleet despised the Klingon Empire's guts for nearly two centuries before they finally made an unstable alliance against a common threat.
Ba'ul are doing the same thing that Klingons were doing to natives. Also remember this show *should* be during the same timeframe where James T. Kirk will be raised from. A timeframe in the quadrant where if Federation didnt find you, other powers would and pretty much enslave your entire race. We know Star Fleet had a ''carry a big stick'' policy during his time, So it makes sense they would interfere.
6:49 Kelpiens eat kelp? Ah-hah!
I assume the Ba'ul didn't want to colonize other worlds because they didn't want to become the interest of other species who could possibly upset the Great Balance. Or perhaps, they were doing the Galaxy a favor by curbing the Kelpiens. It is very interesting that two races have very different biology.
Lol that thicc Tendi in the background
Saru is my favorite character in Discovery.
Octopi also only live a few years, limiting their ability to learn all they'd need to to get to space.
You need to do more episodes from your dope ass screened in deck with the colorful lights.
When people aren't mowing their lawns, I'd love to! XD
So great to see this video! Thanks!!!
this is a great episode; kudos!
The DeLorean time machine goes to 88 Miles per hour, which is like 140 kilometers per hour. So Kelpians only run half as fast at 80kph.
Second person who's missed the joke 😞
Tyler just out of curiosity, how in the world do you dust all of your Knick-Knacks without messing up their placement ?
Outstanding video. I love when Star Trek moves away from bipedal humanoids and the deep back story of these two species is fascinating. I will just take issue with you one one thing: being a prey species by FAR does not give you an evolutionary pressure that leads to rapid advancement. The vast majority of prey simply get eaten or become extinct. Changing evolutionary niches is exceedingly rare.
having technology is what allowed humans and their ancestors to diversify so greatly in diets and enviroments...so its not unheard of
@@keenirr5332 I didn't say it was, but the vast majority of creatures do not develop and evolutionary advantage from being prey.
advantage? like surviving? "get an evolutionary advantage from being prey" is like getting an evolutionary advantage from having as many legs as everything else in the ecosystem - moot
@@keenirr5332 I think you must be wilfully trying to misunderstand. An evolutionary advantage is something that confers a benefit in the survival of the fittest arms races.
The term is a misnomer though. Merely surviving is not enough. A species muse thrive.
Being at the bottom of the food chain does not automatically promote the evolution that leads to thriving, as the dodo would attest.. if it still existed.
@@Martial-Mat why must a species thrive?
>An evolutionary advantage is something that confers a benefit in the survival of the fittest arms races.
by that logic, everything that is either neutral or non-harmful is a benefit, because it allows the species to survive further in the arms races.
most frogs and cod release hundreds of eggs, yet only a dozen at most from each laying survive to adulthood -- with all the species of each group, clearly that means they are all thriving, even if each species is numbers-poor.
the dodo was far from the bottom of its respective food chain; and it WAS thriving...til rats ate their eggs.
Very interesting. The Kelpians are one of my favorite alien species.
Man, FÜM is like a parody a of youtube adds. It's awesome.
Always excellent videos. Thanks from Ireland
Great video as always. Thanks!
Wooohooo! Looking forward to this!
I'd take exception to your mention of octupi here. Mollusca are held back SOLELY by their short lifespan. If they lived longer, we likely never would have gotten a chance to evolve.
Wouldn't the Kelpians be in danger of becoming a food-source for the Celestaceans ('space whales' from ST:IV movie)? Oh wait, they eat Krill, not Kelp, so it would be the Krillians that would be screwed. 😅
Discovery had a lot of really interesting and good ideas. It just never followed through on anything. It's like they took the JJ Abrams book of storytelling. Great ideas, looks good, terrible execution
Where did you get that tshirt? I want one… Also Disco did some awesome stuff
Ba'ul: "Hey, if we're underwater, how could there be a-" *tsss*
volcanoes
No. 80 kph is nowhere near 88 mph. That’s actually about 38 mph faster….
Me when I don't understand humor
@@OrangeRiverwhat’s the joke?
@CasablancaBree In a way, the joke is people "um ackshually"-ing in the comments about the exact ratio of miles to kilometers 😭
If there's something Discovery consistently NAILED at, it was everything related to Kaminar
Most interesting? Have you not seen the Vau N'Akat from Prodigy?
The Vau N'Akat are certainly interesting, although Prodigy itself is quite unwatchable 😭
Spoiler alert for season 3 of Discovery: I head-canoned that the Ba’ul had a special time-travel based knowledge of the evil that would eventually endanger the galaxy if the Kelpians escaped their grasp. That it wasn’t malice but foreknowledge that kept them insular and keeping Kelpians in check. I was thinking that could happen before the end of season 2. I abandoned the idea after the season finale.
Then we discovered the source of the burn. My new head-canon became that their original solution was no longer needed once Burnham jumped forward and set in motion the chain of events that would undo the damage caused by the Kelpian on the dilithium planet. In a way this would mirror Picard season 1’s plot against synthetic life being instigated by prophetic visions. My original expectation was that Burnham would have to sacrifice herself and collapse the timeline we witnessed, because she was the hub to her mother’s time-manipulations that set these changes in motion.
nice backyard bruh 👍
I'm glad I am not the only person who thought about this.
If I had a nickel for every time Star Trek referenced gazelles, I'd have 2 nickels. Its not a lot, but its weird that it happened more than once.
Thanks
Thank you!
It's beyond tragic that history and current events reveal how humans exploit, oppress, or even massacre fellow human beings of a different race. It's frightening to consider a contemporary world where different kinds of humanoid species existed.
Saru was one of the best characters on disco
I still find it unlikely that multiple intelligent species could coexist on the same planet.
I've always wondered if the predator species exiled one of their members to a planet far away. And that creature ended up killing Tasha Yar.
Ambassador Saru series, please..
🖖
Loved the species, hated the explanation of the burn.
i still think the custom designers and/or writers of Discovery messed up the Ba'ul.....are we sure they are not related to the grease stain that killed Tasha Yar?
While STD is really bad. Saru was the most interesting new character and I wish he was the main character of the show. It would be very interesting to see the dynamic of an alien, whom is in a objectively submissive role on his planet, have to become accustom to being in a dominant leadership position, which is more of a predator trait. It's such a interesting idea that STD never really took advantage of, but that's why the show is bad. It never delved into ideas beyond a surface level, because the action plot had to plot.
Granted I gave up on the show at season two. I couldn't put up with the high school characters that surrounded Saru and Pike anymore.
You missed out
Arent the baul one of the few races that used anti proton weapons?
For me, Discovery remains one of the weakest shows in the franchise because the writing was generally mediocre. However, I agree with you that the Kelpians were among the most interesting elements of the show, and this was certainly helped by Doug Jones' strong work.
Tyler 😎🖖🏻💚
Yet again, talking of things you don't know anything about.
Firstly there is no evidence sabertooth were hunting (pre)humans, and especially there is no evidence they did to such an extent it influenced our evolution.
Secondly, predators usually have bigger brains than their preys... and just because you're the one being eaten it doesn't mean evolutionary pressures are any lower. It all depends on hunting success; specific ecological niches and the number and variety of preys. if jackals, hyenas and small cats are extremely successful, cheetahs on the other hand suck hard and risk death by exhaustion constantly.
Thirdly we know that in the wild, great apes, of which we are part of, by and large are NOT preyed uppon, except by humans. Predation does not make for any significant proportion of deaths.
"Yet again, talking of things you don't know anything about" Oh so this is a consistent "problem" you've had with my content? Have you never spoken up before? I'm sorry, Professor!
1) The mentioning of cats was purely as an example -- the point is that, whether they did or not (because they might have), cats being predators didn't mean they were predisposed for intelligence
2) Having a bigger brain doesn't automatically matter either -- it's about proximity of neuronal connections. And I explicitly did not say evolutionary pressure was lower on prey, but it's often the opposite (although obviously it depends on a case-by-case basis)
3) Okay, good for the other great apes. Our ancestors were still occasionally hunted by other animals, mostly reptiles.
You're publicly subscribed to me, but the tone of your comment shows such disdain for me as a commentator...why are you here again??? Lol
Slightly less surface gravity but slightly larger volume. Work this.
I remember watching the episodes about the them. I figured they would end of being the same species but just at different phases in their life stages.
It's said Kelpians can also sense when the series has been canceled. LOL
Wow those aliens were some real shit heads
Thanks for new video. I like the addition of these aliens in Discovery. Discovery had some really cool ideas but the overall execution was a little meh.
My beautiful gazelle boys “Planet of the Apes”-d themselves with the fish folk
Tenth
Humanoid aliens are just boring. We want more species like 8472, something truly alien.
Discovery worst Star Trek ever but Siru is one of the best Trek characters ever!
a binary ecosystem is utterly absurd for every reason.
Fum is not good for anyone. Smoke cigarettes instead or DON'T SMOKE.
Dude it's a TH-cam sponsorship, chill 😅
Do not give them...I'm a smoker. Get other sponsors. Toothbrush.
How about no bad habits instead of supporting less bad habits, I don’t support any channel that allows addictive behavior rewarded as though it’s less harm. No different than the 4 ever Plastics that live in every human and is in every breathe you take, and DuPont has been allowed to get away with genocide, as they scientists found out their is not a human on earth from the remotest village in Tibet, to the remotest village in the Amazon every human now has these forever plastics and they are most concentrated in the pubic area as this area has one of the most concentrated areas of blood vessels. So this company is allowed to end mankind without a government intervention protecting us….
Ma'am, this is a Wendy's
24 views in 3 min, bro fell off.