I've seen every single one of your videos, and I have to say that this is probably your best theory ever presented. Excellent presentation of the evidence AND the literary consequences if Quaithe is Shiera Seastar. I'm completely sold on the idea!
The Shiera Seastar theory isn’t Robert’s original work (though it is very well-presented here), but the link to Egg commissioning journeys to Asshai (which makes an awful lot of sense) was a connection that he first pulled together, as far as I’m aware. That seals the deal for me in terms of this being close to canon.
That's the main reason it's so frustrating that this series is never gonna be completed. I read the first three books 20 years ago, and I'd have swapped every other ongoing series I've read in those 20 years not being finished if I could just get this one instead.
@@korganrocks3995 I honestly think the conclusion would be uninteresting and possibly a huge disappointment. If you think about it, the story has only ever grown outward, like a sprouting garden. There is no architect to bring it all into a neat conclusion, because GRRM keeps expanding the world. Some other writer will eventually have to finish the main story after GRRMs death. I agree I speculate, but I really do believe this.
@@SporkyMcFly The journey is the important thing, not the destination. I once realised I was 300 pages into a fantasy novel without any real plot progression having happened, yet I was enjoying the quality of the characters and the prose so much that I didn't care. As a Manchester United fan I can say that I miss actual entertaining soccer games a hundred times more than I miss "my" team winning trophies, and the same goes for books. A series of seven long books with a weak ending is fine by me as long as the bulk of the series is enjoyable to read. Oh well, let's look on the bright side; at least there isn't a shipping war dividing the fandom; the three year gap between the 4th and 5th Harry Potter books caused a whole lotta bad blood between Harry/Hermione shippers and those of us who have any kind of media literacy... 😄
@@korganrocks3995 It may appear that way, but I honestly have no interest in the conclusion. The worldbuilding was enough for me to become a fan of the series. I like watching HotD and reading lore pieces every now and again. It is a fully fledged product.
@@korganrocks3995 I bet Aegon and Dany become a pair and Aegon is a Blackfyre while Dany is a Targaryen, and in doing so they not only follow Targaryen tradition but also reunite their severed houses after reconquering Westeros like Aegon of old, reasserting Targaryen power.
i never even thought that quaithe might be crying... woah. makes me reevaluate her character. she's not just a voice to deliver cryptic warnings. she's alone in the world and trying to help the only kin she has left....
It doesn't make sense in the context of the sentence. The words "her implacable eyes" also being part of that same description, pretty much rules out tears as far as I can see.
Dany’s the only kin she has left and she’s also hatched dragons making protecting her and her dragons a logical extension of the mission Egg gave her. She probably thought that she’d failed but now she can complete it in another way
I love this theory: Bloodraven (Ice) and Shiera (Fire) working the long con to get Dany and Jon together. I love those ancient Targaryen pschos. The House of the Dragon TV show with the half-a-second Bloodraven shot in Daemon's weirdwood vision made me unreasonably excited.
2034: George is "still working hard on Winds of Winter", Star Citizen has entered closed beta for those who have donated at least $200, and NASA have pushed back the Artemis III launch to the following year citing "technical challenges".
I always figured GRRM left the “perfumed seneschal” intentionally vague. It could refer to the following (I think): The ship Tyrion travels east on. Particularly the passengers on the ship - Tyrion, Jorah, Moqorro, etc. Varys - he’s the personification of a perfumed seneschal (Illyrio could be included in this interpretation) Reznak mo Reznak is called a seneschal at multiple points and wears strong fragrances. Edit - oh and don’t forget about Satin up at castle black!! (Least likely to be relevant to this prophecy!!)
Yeah good summary. Personally I doubt it’s the ship (although I think it’s intended as a possibility) just because it’s redundant: she’s already warned against Tyrion and Moqorro, why do it again but more vague? If she only means Jorah, why not specify Jorah?
It's videos like this that remind me why I was do into these books in the first place. I've been so removed from caring since the show went the way it did, but it's nice to think back on the story fondly.
I never stopped loving the books, it's very unfortunate that the show ultimately dropped the ball... But the story and multitude of interconnected characters/plotlines that GRRM crafted is far too engrossing for me to forget. I'm still hoping that he will eventually finish the series, although I don't necessarily believe that he will, given his advanced age and such, but I'd be ecstatic to be proven wrong. I've read the books at least 10 times in the years since the debut of GoT, the TV series. It's still impressive to me how often I pick up on some little clue/bit of text that I somehow never really gave much thought to before. IDG's videos certainly have stimulated that attention to detail on my part, but after reading them 10 times, you'd think I couldn't possibly pick up on something new anymore... But it still happens.
G.R.R.M.'s world has this mirror quality between its East (Fire) and West (Ice). Westeros is imperiled by the frosty Others sequestered in a arctic wasteland beyond a giant Ice wall manned by an order of exclusively Male Warriors. In the East, the "Lion of Night" and his demon army, were sequestered in the Grey Wastes beyond the Five Forts manned by exclusively Female Warriors. Blood Raven became a powerful mage and uses his abilities to guide Jon Snow's rise to savior as the 3-eyed Raven - an alternate identity, his half-sister/lover Shierra presumably did the same but in Essos and as Quaithe guides Dany with magic in similar fashion.
My one and only niggling point on this, is that if Dany can see Quiathe's eyes clearly enough to tell they are 'wet and shiny', surely she would have noted the heterochromia of her eyes, if she truly is Seastar? Theres something to be said about the possibility of glamours, but if she was using glamours, why bother with the mask?
Blue and green can be close enough together as to be hardly noticeable unless you're close. In the illustration provided, it's very subtle and a mask would shadow her eyes somewhat and make it even more difficult.
I might buy that, if her eyes weren’t literally the only thing you could see about her face. If Dani is close enough to see her eyes are wet, surely she could see two different colors? As with OP this is the one detail that keeps me from totally buying the idea. It’s small, but important. Unless GRRM just made a mistake.
This is one of the best videos you have made in years!!!! Also please bring back the Roberts rebellion series. It's my favorite series you have made. Also bring back The Travelers Guide to Westeros.
"The Prince that was Promised" is a legend. I still believe that a deliberate distinction between "SIOF" and "The Lord of the Rings" is that in "ASIOF" most legends and lore are wrong, misunderstood, or deliberately mis-remembered. GRRM has his characters interpret legends and lore as rationalizations for behaviors they have decided to adopt regardless of morality or social taboo. George is a hippie from the 1960s' and a pacifist. It is highly unlikely that a legendary warrior prince or princess is coming to save Westeros by violently conquering The Others.
3:32 "The Perfumed Seneschal, who could be any one of two or three different people". Or, not a person at all. The ship Tyrion was sailing on has a name which he translates as "Stinky Steward" - but "Perfumed Seneschal" would then be an equally valid translation.
Indeed! Been rereading the book and the explicit translation Tyrion mentions of the ship is Noteworthy. Though, if all others are people and already mentioned (Tyrion himself as the lion and Moqorro), Then it would wierd that this sunken ship is part of the list, don’t you think? Red haring?
@@Krullio come to think of it the ship belongs to Varys which makes me even more confident that it’s him. Plus the perfumed seneschal and the fake dragon fit him and fAegon perfectly
My guess is that if there is a real Azor Ahai (and not just a belief in one) then that title would likely belong to a team rather than a single person. All Chosen One stories that I've ever read or heard of all share a common theme that the Chosen One is only as strong as the relationships forged with their supporters. Harry Potter was destined to kill Voldemort but couldn't have done it without his supportive friends; Frodo was doomed to take the Ring to Mount Doom but could not have destroyed that Ring without his friend's and even frienemy's (Golem) help. There are lots more examples, but I think these two get my point across. Since GRRM likes showing that what is real is less important than what people believe is real, I'm thinking that both Danny and John will fulfill part of the needs of the Azor Ahai legend/prophecy but neither will be able to do it all alone. They will likely need each other or will continue to need their other supporters if they never meet. They will both be Azor Ahai because people believe they are and will support them in attempting fulfilling that prophecy, real or not.
Azor Ahai could not do it without sacrificing his one true love... So there is duality in that myth, as well. Jon Snow pulling the flaming sword from his dead Targaeryan waifu (Dany) is just too perfect. It has to be the final solution to the "Wight" problem!
The name George chose "a song of ice and fire" seems to imply both have to be a part of the finale. It ending in a giant war of ice and fire doesn't seem to be his kind of storytelling. Thats why i also believe the others will be dealt with in a more peaceful manner and not a giant war to the end.
My response to this video: "I KNEW IT!!!!!" lol I've been shouting from the top of the Great Ice Wall of the North, for roughly a decade at this point, that Quaithe was Shiera Seastar! And this video pretty much confirms what I, as a reader, always felt in my heart! Quaithe and Bloodraven are both working toward the same ends... but with different candidates for Azor Ahai in mind! It's too perfect! I would actually be disappointed if somehow they WEREN'T whom I believe to be, with all my soul!
Asshai is the birthplace of dragons. Danny is the mother of dragons. Quaithe wants Danny to birth more dragons. Maybe to see how and why Dannys ancestors went from sheep herding to dragon riding. Going to Asshai would have delayed Dannys death. HOwever, I am certain that Drogon is carrying Dannys dead body to Asshai ..... for a resurrection.
I believe Bloodraven and Seastar is still in contact and they have figured out that to win the battle against the White Walkers, both Dany and Jon is needed. So they are pushing and influencing both of them to their destiny.
I would honestly have to say she might be Sierra seastar, with Brendon Rivers being up north in her being in the warm places, it's poetic for The song of ice and Fire.
and Bloodraven and Sheara may have a child named Melanie. Who was kidnapped for slavery and then sold to temple of Lord of Light to become Melisandre. Mel looks like she is albino(white skin, red eyes and hair), she is thin waist and full of breasts and she is magical and her face is in heart-shaped like Sheara
This might be a dumb question...you know how that mask hides her identity from us and other characters, would it help her hide from Bloodraven as well? I see the mask is also similar in shape to Melisandre's necklace that makes her appear much younger than she actually is.
Great vid IDG as always. I have long been a proponent / subscriber to Q = SS , Quaithe = Shiera Seastar. It just works on so many levels as highlighted in this vid. The foil for Bloodraven / his magical path and aims given their prior relationship really works and adds up for me and the star imagery which I know i have mentioned in these live-chats for years is especially convincing , star / Sea-star. The mask of starlight , whispers of stars mentioned in the vid , believe there was a mention of stars whirling around Q as well (potentially around her hands / fingers even but have to double check on that reference). That star imagery seems especially suggestive. The Bloodraven foil also makes a lot of sense being former lovers but also somewhat contentious relationship almost rivalry aspect at work as well. Plus SS attributed magic user it works for me that she followed a similar but different magical path (in this case via Asshai / shadow-binder magic). Both SS & BR living unnaturally long lives sustained by magic and both have their claimant champion savior figures. Quite similar to BR's path with some obvious differences , each having their own savior figure of sorts they are trying to guide and with seemingly the same goal of trying to save the world via their own ways. And given Q is so keen for Dany to go all fire & blood and embrace her Targaryen / dragon-riding side , also very much works that Q is an actual Targaryen given how that seems a key theme in Q's guidance for Dany. For me there is no other remotely close candidate as strong as SS for Q. I agree with Robert not every mysterious character has to be some hidden other character we are already familiar with but in this instance i really think it is the case and is quite a narratively strong choice that works very well.
I don't know whether to love or hate the fact that most people seem to gloss over the fact that the ship Tyrion took to Meereen, the Selaesori Qhoran, was basically called "The Perfumed Seneschal". GRRM actually prompts the reader to think in synonyms here, by giving the translation as "Fragrant Steward", with Tyrion augmenting the translation to "Stinky Steward"
Certainly a compelling approach. I just wonder - will we ever get some resolution with the two final books or will they never get published in our lifetimes?
So, I just had a thought watching this. Near the end, as you are talking about Bloodraven and Sheera Seastar being lovers and confidantes, an image came up of them side by side and I realized - they only have three eyes between them. Another three_eyed raven reference? Maybe they're both working together still, and she needs Dany to go West to meet Jon, not because either of them are the Prince that was promised, but THEIR child will be?
@@2007VolkswagenJetta I was born in the 80's, so I still haven't got past the mindset that anyone born in this millenium must be a baby or a toddler! 😄
Running with a small point. If Blood Raven “chose” Jon, as Quaith “chose” Danny, what is he doing with Bran? It is speculation that BR is communicating with Jon through Ghost and ravens but we know BR went through great lengths to meet Bran and I don’t believe BR has ever mentioned Jon to Bran (yet). Jon spoke to Bran through the weirwood not Blood Raven. Idk. Just a thought.
Bloodraven might be training Bran to be a continuation of him or his power. This would make sense if he foresaw the possibility of his death before the end of the long night. I think he may die. Mentor characters usually do, and he is set up as being Bran's mentor.
@@clownpendotfart Mormont's raven seems like good evidence to me. I don't think its time-traveling bran controlling it as the omniscence of greenseers into the past doesn't need to be through warging a creature, they travel through the air BR says. only someone spying from the current time would need a warg spy from my interpretation of a greenseer's power
Why did you remove your travelers' guide series from the channel? I loved listening to it when falling asleep. I guess the reboot is coming, but I don't understand removing it all at once. Many other playlists are gone too.
i'm currently doing another rewatch (just started s2) so this couldn't come at a better time! i've always wondered about her and every time i rewatch s1, i'm like "oh yeah i still have no idea what she's about lol"
So the one issue I have with this theory: Eyes. They are, pretty consistently, one of the most described features of Valyrians. In particular, the Targaryan purple. And we have Quaithe's eyes featured, prominently, multiple times. But-there's no description, no mention of an unusual colour, no hint the eyes might by Valyrian. And sure, it could be that Shiera inherited her mother's eyes and so lacks the Targ look... but then, why, if the colour is different from others, was it not mentioned by George in his description. And if I am writing a character in a mask whose secret identity is a huge plot point, I am 1000% making their eyes a clue.
It would make for a cool parallel that the two most magically inclined Targaryens, Bloodraven and Seastar, are helping to guide Bran and Danaerys towards their respective destinies
The fact quaithe wears a mask may be more then just hiding her identity but also could be a consequence of her extended time in ashaii , with ashaii possibly being radioactive
One of the things interesting about one the more popular prophecies from Quaithe is that most of the the info could have been gained in a more mundane way from someone in Volantis at the time. Griff was out of hiding, the Iron fleet had stopped there. The widow had helped Tyrion. Quentyn had passed through. Something I've always been surprised is never explored is Maester Walgrave. There are definitely suggestions in the lockbox that a glamor may be involved. There's the mystery of Yandal an Walys and the suggestion of a Hightower having an affair with a Maester. All of which could be answered by woman posing as a man to be a Maester. If this Maester is working with Marwyn it dovetails with his own time in Asshai and has access to his glass candle. The answer could be Seastar or even Malora, or others. I've always been intrigued by the mask as it relates to Dany. There really shouldn't be anyone Dany would recognize behind the mask. The only reason as a story device to have it is so we don't. It sometimes makes me wonder if Dany would recognize her without it though.
I thought magic had died from the world after the dance of the dragons so how is it that there was still powerful magic during Bloodravens time? Very curious
I think she's a part of the Faceless Men, because of her quotes and the mask she wears in the show, pity they didn't explore her more in the subsequent seasons of GoT
For the last 7/8 months most nights with YT.P iv fell asleep 2 GOT audio or you. Last night listning 2 R.R i was kicking nyself for even paying tonight iv just got up 2 type this comment lol wjen i see u have a new vid up i wait all day asif its a treat. Ur maybe my fav channel, pod and all. ........ Im baked out my mind soz lol ! Said all that 2 say ur adds are like nothing iv seen before.
Hello Robert, at the beginning of the videos you still say you’re covering The Witcher in depth, but haven’t done any Witcher related videos for around a year now. Are you planning on making any more in the future? Thanks
It would be cool if Quaithe was Danny in the future trying to steer her path in the right direct with the help of the glass candles and the three eyed raven. I havnt read any of the books I just love the shows and these lore videos.
Not only do I love the theory that Quaithe is Shiera, I love to think that she had a daughter with Bloodraven - Melisandre. I also like to think they're still in contact with each other.
Interesting! Once upon a time lovers -Bloodraven influencing Jon Snow and Seastar aka Quaithe influencing Danearys ,would be lovers. Its possible they were scheming since Summerhall.
I think Quaithe is one of George’s biggest regrets. He needed an NPC to pass Dany that cryptic message of “to go north you must south”, but he now realizes he needs to explain her background and he never intended to do that. Even the message itself I suspect was something George may have found interesting at the time, but now he can’t fit its contents with the real story.
My gut feeling is that she tried to guide Dany to become the hero the setting needed, and Dany choosing not to learn a truth she truly needed on her quest will be her downfall.
Shiera Seastar would also add more point to the whole mummers dragon plotline because she might have a personal grudge against blackfyres. For other mages, magic or destiny a dragon should be a dragon whether or not it is black or red. But for somebody that lived through, it might be important. Who is truly, legally the rightful hair should not be important as it is perceptions that matter. Seastar would add a point of view that cares about it. Even for Dany the rebellion is ancient history and blackfyres are still relatives. She might be inclined to not care too much especially since she can't have children. A distant relative might be completely good enough as a heir for her but not for Seastar.
Yeah i mean especially when you consider the literary irony it’s gotta be Shiera. Even without at shes the best bet. Very interesting character, who conspicuously has no end to her story.
With House of the Dragon practically confirming Danny as the Princess that was promised, I still hold out some hope that Jon might still be the Prince that was promised. Like Missandei says concerning the prophecy in the show, that the proper translation is plural. What if instead of Prince or Princess, it is instead Prince and Princess?
Along with the Remember who you are the dragons know and all of the other pairs of characters physically together I e always been of the belief of Dany herself being the mummers dragon. It makes way more sense than Aegon, who wants to align with her.
D&D kinda forgot about Quaithe
They forgot about A LOT. LOL. Even Euron's fleet🙄
No point in having her whisper to Dany if Dany's not going to Asshai.
They forgot about everything
And George hasn't?
I keep forgetting that D&D doesn't reference DnD in this situation.
Never stop making content mate. You are so good at what you do.
I was fully ready for this to turn into "Who is Quaithe and why is she secretly Bloodraven?"
lol
In ASOIAF theorys it seams everyone is Bloodraven unproven otherwise😅
😂😂
it kinda did at the end lol
She’s Shiera Seastar, NOT Bloodraven!
I've seen every single one of your videos, and I have to say that this is probably your best theory ever presented. Excellent presentation of the evidence AND the literary consequences if Quaithe is Shiera Seastar. I'm completely sold on the idea!
I mean he did not come up with the theory as far as I know but still a very good video presenting the theory
As far as I know this is canon ! :D
@@FlorentPlacide I mean if the reveal hasn’t happened how can it be canon? Or am I missing something?
@@pabloreed7717 I meant that we've been waiting for a long time and this theory is pretty convincing, so I'm willing to take it as canon.
The Shiera Seastar theory isn’t Robert’s original work (though it is very well-presented here), but the link to Egg commissioning journeys to Asshai (which makes an awful lot of sense) was a connection that he first pulled together, as far as I’m aware. That seals the deal for me in terms of this being close to canon.
It is incredible how many characters who played such a small role can have so mich depth and be so interesting
That's the main reason it's so frustrating that this series is never gonna be completed. I read the first three books 20 years ago, and I'd have swapped every other ongoing series I've read in those 20 years not being finished if I could just get this one instead.
@@korganrocks3995 I honestly think the conclusion would be uninteresting and possibly a huge disappointment.
If you think about it, the story has only ever grown outward, like a sprouting garden. There is no architect to bring it all into a neat conclusion, because GRRM keeps expanding the world. Some other writer will eventually have to finish the main story after GRRMs death.
I agree I speculate, but I really do believe this.
@@SporkyMcFly The journey is the important thing, not the destination. I once realised I was 300 pages into a fantasy novel without any real plot progression having happened, yet I was enjoying the quality of the characters and the prose so much that I didn't care.
As a Manchester United fan I can say that I miss actual entertaining soccer games a hundred times more than I miss "my" team winning trophies, and the same goes for books. A series of seven long books with a weak ending is fine by me as long as the bulk of the series is enjoyable to read.
Oh well, let's look on the bright side; at least there isn't a shipping war dividing the fandom; the three year gap between the 4th and 5th Harry Potter books caused a whole lotta bad blood between Harry/Hermione shippers and those of us who have any kind of media literacy... 😄
@@korganrocks3995 It may appear that way, but I honestly have no interest in the conclusion. The worldbuilding was enough for me to become a fan of the series. I like watching HotD and reading lore pieces every now and again. It is a fully fledged product.
@@korganrocks3995 I bet Aegon and Dany become a pair and Aegon is a Blackfyre while Dany is a Targaryen, and in doing so they not only follow Targaryen tradition but also reunite their severed houses after reconquering Westeros like Aegon of old, reasserting Targaryen power.
i never even thought that quaithe might be crying... woah. makes me reevaluate her character. she's not just a voice to deliver cryptic warnings. she's alone in the world and trying to help the only kin she has left....
It doesn't make sense in the context of the sentence. The words "her implacable eyes" also being part of that same description, pretty much rules out tears as far as I can see.
Dany’s the only kin she has left and she’s also hatched dragons making protecting her and her dragons a logical extension of the mission Egg gave her. She probably thought that she’d failed but now she can complete it in another way
@@TimTimTomTom it doesn’t rule it out it just adds doubt with the aim of making her even more mysterious
I love this theory: Bloodraven (Ice) and Shiera (Fire) working the long con to get Dany and Jon together.
I love those ancient Targaryen pschos. The House of the Dragon TV show with the half-a-second Bloodraven shot in Daemon's weirdwood vision made me unreasonably excited.
I mean bloodraven himself is ice and fire too, half Targaryen and half blackwood
George watching the video and taking notes cause he took a decade long break
2034: George is "still working hard on Winds of Winter", Star Citizen has entered closed beta for those who have donated at least $200, and NASA have pushed back the Artemis III launch to the following year citing "technical challenges".
Between the doritos and the hentai furry websites.
Isn’t the Perfumed Seneschal the ship Tyrion travels on? He translates it as “Fragrant Steward,” which literally means the same thing.
I too wondered this very thing
I always figured GRRM left the “perfumed seneschal” intentionally vague. It could refer to the following (I think):
The ship Tyrion travels east on. Particularly the passengers on the ship - Tyrion, Jorah, Moqorro, etc.
Varys - he’s the personification of a perfumed seneschal (Illyrio could be included in this interpretation)
Reznak mo Reznak is called a seneschal at multiple points and wears strong fragrances.
Edit - oh and don’t forget about Satin up at castle black!! (Least likely to be relevant to this prophecy!!)
Yeah good summary. Personally I doubt it’s the ship (although I think it’s intended as a possibility) just because it’s redundant: she’s already warned against Tyrion and Moqorro, why do it again but more vague? If she only means Jorah, why not specify Jorah?
Quaithe is actually both Jaqen H’ghar and Syrio Forel. Never seen them all in the same room at the same time have you???
It's videos like this that remind me why I was do into these books in the first place. I've been so removed from caring since the show went the way it did, but it's nice to think back on the story fondly.
I never stopped loving the books, it's very unfortunate that the show ultimately dropped the ball... But the story and multitude of interconnected characters/plotlines that GRRM crafted is far too engrossing for me to forget.
I'm still hoping that he will eventually finish the series, although I don't necessarily believe that he will, given his advanced age and such, but I'd be ecstatic to be proven wrong.
I've read the books at least 10 times in the years since the debut of GoT, the TV series. It's still impressive to me how often I pick up on some little clue/bit of text that I somehow never really gave much thought to before. IDG's videos certainly have stimulated that attention to detail on my part, but after reading them 10 times, you'd think I couldn't possibly pick up on something new anymore... But it still happens.
@jedirayden watching this channel has certainly helped me pick things out in rereads 😂
I like to think that if Grrm REALLY did sign off on Dany being killed then it is because she has to be resurrected like John Snow.
It truly is a shame GRRM will never finish the books.
"He is still alive! He can finish the book!"
** CRIES IN DENIAL **
G.R.R.M.'s world has this mirror quality between its East (Fire) and West (Ice). Westeros is imperiled by the frosty Others sequestered in a arctic wasteland beyond a giant Ice wall manned by an order of exclusively Male Warriors. In the East, the "Lion of Night" and his demon army, were sequestered in the Grey Wastes beyond the Five Forts manned by exclusively Female Warriors. Blood Raven became a powerful mage and uses his abilities to guide Jon Snow's rise to savior as the 3-eyed Raven - an alternate identity, his half-sister/lover Shierra presumably did the same but in Essos and as Quaithe guides Dany with magic in similar fashion.
I think the Essosi can produce their own mystics (like Melisandre).
I wonder whats at the southern pole of the planet? Assuming the land of always winter is like the Arctic there must be an Antarctic.
Great vid, I'll admit I always thought Quaithe was a throwaway character, but you make great points about it foiling Bloodraven and Jon.
My one and only niggling point on this, is that if Dany can see Quiathe's eyes clearly enough to tell they are 'wet and shiny', surely she would have noted the heterochromia of her eyes, if she truly is Seastar? Theres something to be said about the possibility of glamours, but if she was using glamours, why bother with the mask?
Yes! Thank you for stating my own query so well
Great point
I came here to say exactly this! Thank you!
Blue and green can be close enough together as to be hardly noticeable unless you're close. In the illustration provided, it's very subtle and a mask would shadow her eyes somewhat and make it even more difficult.
I might buy that, if her eyes weren’t literally the only thing you could see about her face. If Dani is close enough to see her eyes are wet, surely she could see two different colors?
As with OP this is the one detail that keeps me from totally buying the idea. It’s small, but important. Unless GRRM just made a mistake.
This is one of the best videos you have made in years!!!! Also please bring back the Roberts rebellion series. It's my favorite series you have made. Also bring back The Travelers Guide to Westeros.
Those videos will be back, Robert has been going back and redoing old videos to bring them up to his current quality standards.
I've been captivated with what Quaithe might be about, and this is a way more impressive answer than I imagined
Robert your videos have been a godsend to me as I navigate my illness. I’m so appreciative of your hard work on this series!
Quaite had been my biggest fascination since we met her. I'm convinced. Q=SS.
Could we even see a parallel. BR+SS = JS+DT
"The Prince that was Promised" is a legend. I still believe that a deliberate distinction between "SIOF" and "The Lord of the Rings" is that in "ASIOF" most legends and lore are wrong, misunderstood, or deliberately mis-remembered. GRRM has his characters interpret legends and lore as rationalizations for behaviors they have decided to adopt regardless of morality or social taboo. George is a hippie from the 1960s' and a pacifist. It is highly unlikely that a legendary warrior prince or princess is coming to save Westeros by violently conquering The Others.
i dont usually buy into fan theories but this is pretty compelling. it actually works on multiple levels.
3:32 "The Perfumed Seneschal, who could be any one of two or three different people". Or, not a person at all. The ship Tyrion was sailing on has a name which he translates as "Stinky Steward" - but "Perfumed Seneschal" would then be an equally valid translation.
Could also be Varys
Well spotted
Indeed! Been rereading the book and the explicit translation Tyrion mentions of the ship is Noteworthy. Though, if all others are people and already mentioned (Tyrion himself as the lion and Moqorro), Then it would wierd that this sunken ship is part of the list, don’t you think? Red haring?
@@Krullio come to think of it the ship belongs to Varys which makes me even more confident that it’s him. Plus the perfumed seneschal and the fake dragon fit him and fAegon perfectly
The whole point is that it's vague. It's intentional. George can take it down any of these routes, or even make a new one. There isnt a correct answer
My guess is that if there is a real Azor Ahai (and not just a belief in one) then that title would likely belong to a team rather than a single person. All Chosen One stories that I've ever read or heard of all share a common theme that the Chosen One is only as strong as the relationships forged with their supporters. Harry Potter was destined to kill Voldemort but couldn't have done it without his supportive friends; Frodo was doomed to take the Ring to Mount Doom but could not have destroyed that Ring without his friend's and even frienemy's (Golem) help. There are lots more examples, but I think these two get my point across.
Since GRRM likes showing that what is real is less important than what people believe is real, I'm thinking that both Danny and John will fulfill part of the needs of the Azor Ahai legend/prophecy but neither will be able to do it all alone. They will likely need each other or will continue to need their other supporters if they never meet. They will both be Azor Ahai because people believe they are and will support them in attempting fulfilling that prophecy, real or not.
It's not about the chosen one defeating great evil but the friends you make along the way
Azor Ahai could not do it without sacrificing his one true love... So there is duality in that myth, as well. Jon Snow pulling the flaming sword from his dead Targaeryan waifu (Dany) is just too perfect. It has to be the final solution to the "Wight" problem!
Check out what Sean T. Collins of Boiled Leather has written about comparing ASOIAF to Grant Morrison's Seven Soldiers.
The name George chose "a song of ice and fire" seems to imply both have to be a part of the finale. It ending in a giant war of ice and fire doesn't seem to be his kind of storytelling. Thats why i also believe the others will be dealt with in a more peaceful manner and not a giant war to the end.
@@LisaAnn777 The pitch letter indicates the Others hate all life and can't make peace.
My response to this video: "I KNEW IT!!!!!" lol
I've been shouting from the top of the Great Ice Wall of the North, for roughly a decade at this point, that Quaithe was Shiera Seastar! And this video pretty much confirms what I, as a reader, always felt in my heart! Quaithe and Bloodraven are both working toward the same ends... but with different candidates for Azor Ahai in mind! It's too perfect! I would actually be disappointed if somehow they WEREN'T whom I believe to be, with all my soul!
Everything fits together well. Thank you, Robert, for another great video. You've convinced me.
Really neat and thought provoking video, it makes me feel both excited sad because I dont think we'll ever get the answers.
I'd totally forgotten about her.
She was one of the most intriguing characters.
This possibility does her justice.
Thanks, Robert :)
Asshai is the birthplace of dragons. Danny is the mother of dragons. Quaithe wants Danny to birth more dragons. Maybe to see how and why Dannys ancestors went from sheep herding to dragon riding. Going to Asshai would have delayed Dannys death. HOwever, I am certain that Drogon is carrying Dannys dead body to Asshai ..... for a resurrection.
No no no. The MOON is the birthplace of dragons. It is known.
For the Watch, the Lord Commander and the 1st Ranger! And now our watch begins!
I believe Bloodraven and Seastar is still in contact and they have figured out that to win the battle against the White Walkers, both Dany and Jon is needed. So they are pushing and influencing both of them to their destiny.
I would honestly have to say she might be Sierra seastar, with Brendon Rivers being up north in her being in the warm places, it's poetic for The song of ice and Fire.
Surely dany would notice Quaithe's mismatched eyes if that was the case
and Bloodraven and Sheara may have a child named Melanie. Who was kidnapped for slavery and then sold to temple of Lord of Light to become Melisandre. Mel looks like she is albino(white skin, red eyes and hair), she is thin waist and full of breasts and she is magical and her face is in heart-shaped like Sheara
@@tarunyadav3567she most likely uses a glamour aka spell to hide her actual traits
@@milicaraseta5173 Then why the mask? Also, why not wear an eye-patch over whichever eye is the most unusual color?
@@michal22011 I think Melisandre is older than both Bloodraven and Sheara?
I saw the thumby and was sure I’d seen before. Brilliant content; very fresh!❤️
I’m pretty sure the perfume seneschal is the boat Tyrion takes to Meeren. He translate the name as stinky steward.
Really enjoyed this video. It all makes sense.
The Perfumed Seneschal is probably not a person, it's the Selaesori Qhoran--the boat Tyrion translates as "the stinky steward"
The ambiguity is kinda the point
It's probably Varys.
@@BLooDCoMPleXI concur
Your vision on Quaithe is very cool.
Such a great video! I hadn't really examined her character but that would be amazing!
This might be a dumb question...you know how that mask hides her identity from us and other characters, would it help her hide from Bloodraven as well? I see the mask is also similar in shape to Melisandre's necklace that makes her appear much younger than she actually is.
Beware of Destinies. They are rarely what you would expect.
- Jedi Master Tol Braga
Another fantastic piece IDG! A much more succinct theory than David Lightbringer’s live stream last week.
Great vid IDG as always. I have long been a proponent / subscriber to Q = SS , Quaithe = Shiera Seastar. It just works on so many levels as highlighted in this vid. The foil for Bloodraven / his magical path and aims given their prior relationship really works and adds up for me and the star imagery which I know i have mentioned in these live-chats for years is especially convincing , star / Sea-star. The mask of starlight , whispers of stars mentioned in the vid , believe there was a mention of stars whirling around Q as well (potentially around her hands / fingers even but have to double check on that reference). That star imagery seems especially suggestive.
The Bloodraven foil also makes a lot of sense being former lovers but also somewhat contentious relationship almost rivalry aspect at work as well. Plus SS attributed magic user it works for me that she followed a similar but different magical path (in this case via Asshai / shadow-binder magic). Both SS & BR living unnaturally long lives sustained by magic and both have their claimant champion savior figures. Quite similar to BR's path with some obvious differences , each having their own savior figure of sorts they are trying to guide and with seemingly the same goal of trying to save the world via their own ways. And given Q is so keen for Dany to go all fire & blood and embrace her Targaryen / dragon-riding side , also very much works that Q is an actual Targaryen given how that seems a key theme in Q's guidance for Dany.
For me there is no other remotely close candidate as strong as SS for Q. I agree with Robert not every mysterious character has to be some hidden other character we are already familiar with but in this instance i really think it is the case and is quite a narratively strong choice that works very well.
I don't know whether to love or hate the fact that most people seem to gloss over the fact that the ship Tyrion took to Meereen, the Selaesori Qhoran, was basically called "The Perfumed Seneschal". GRRM actually prompts the reader to think in synonyms here, by giving the translation as "Fragrant Steward", with Tyrion augmenting the translation to "Stinky Steward"
Your videos are insightful and awesome bro. Keep it up
Certainly a compelling approach. I just wonder - will we ever get some resolution with the two final books or will they never get published in our lifetimes?
Wow that’s amazing analysis and enjoyable!!
So, I just had a thought watching this. Near the end, as you are talking about Bloodraven and Sheera Seastar being lovers and confidantes, an image came up of them side by side and I realized - they only have three eyes between them. Another three_eyed raven reference? Maybe they're both working together still, and she needs Dany to go West to meet Jon, not because either of them are the Prince that was promised, but THEIR child will be?
This was good. This was really good…
A book series being able to have so much lore is crazy 🥲
A series of 7 having so much lore when the last two books aren't even finished yet is even crazier!
@@korganrocks3995 especially a series as old as ASOIAF is. Half of its fandom weren’t even alive for its creation
lmfao you’re right, as a 27 year old the first book beats me by a year. Incredible.
@@2007VolkswagenJetta I was born in the 80's, so I still haven't got past the mindset that anyone born in this millenium must be a baby or a toddler! 😄
@@korganrocks3995 we’re adults 😭😭😭
mate didnt you make this video before? thanks again regardless!
again exquisite in depth lore. love u
I always thought she was Shiera Seastar. Nice video as always. 👍
Running with a small point.
If Blood Raven “chose” Jon, as Quaith “chose” Danny, what is he doing with Bran? It is speculation that BR is communicating with Jon through Ghost and ravens but we know BR went through great lengths to meet Bran and I don’t believe BR has ever mentioned Jon to Bran (yet). Jon spoke to Bran through the weirwood not Blood Raven. Idk. Just a thought.
Bloodraven might be training Bran to be a continuation of him or his power. This would make sense if he foresaw the possibility of his death before the end of the long night. I think he may die. Mentor characters usually do, and he is set up as being Bran's mentor.
Yeah, there's no evidence he's even aware that Jon exists.
@@clownpendotfart Mormont's raven seems like good evidence to me. I don't think its time-traveling bran controlling it as the omniscence of greenseers into the past doesn't need to be through warging a creature, they travel through the air BR says. only someone spying from the current time would need a warg spy from my interpretation of a greenseer's power
It's like last door on the right is the first door on the left. To go east, you'll end up west. To go south, you'll end up north.
You are the best in the business when it comes to GOT
Why did you remove your travelers' guide series from the channel? I loved listening to it when falling asleep. I guess the reboot is coming, but I don't understand removing it all at once. Many other playlists are gone too.
I love this channel!
Excellent video!
i'm currently doing another rewatch (just started s2) so this couldn't come at a better time! i've always wondered about her and every time i rewatch s1, i'm like "oh yeah i still have no idea what she's about lol"
Are you redoing the Harenhall Tourney series anytime soon? It was so good and I get so sad everytime I see it is not there anymore.
Egg sending Shiera to Asshai is now my headcanon until George releases the damn books!
TRUTH hunh....I don't think Dany will go to Ashai, she will work it all out by making mistakes...
especially good episode thank you
So the one issue I have with this theory:
Eyes.
They are, pretty consistently, one of the most described features of Valyrians. In particular, the Targaryan purple. And we have Quaithe's eyes featured, prominently, multiple times.
But-there's no description, no mention of an unusual colour, no hint the eyes might by Valyrian. And sure, it could be that Shiera inherited her mother's eyes and so lacks the Targ look... but then, why, if the colour is different from others, was it not mentioned by George in his description.
And if I am writing a character in a mask whose secret identity is a huge plot point, I am 1000% making their eyes a clue.
One of the few things we know about Shiera is that she has mismatched eyes, one dark blue the other bright green.
It would make for a cool parallel that the two most magically inclined Targaryens, Bloodraven and Seastar, are helping to guide Bran and Danaerys towards their respective destinies
Quaithe's warnings (prophesies?) also foretell that Danny and her dragons will fight the Others.
Good analysis.
3-eyed-Raven and Quaithe might not be at cross purposes with their respective Azor Ahai candidates. The Dragon Has Three Heads!
The fact quaithe wears a mask may be more then just hiding her identity but also could be a consequence of her extended time in ashaii , with ashaii possibly being radioactive
I can't believe these books are still not done.
Ah, dear Ms Seastar
One of the things interesting about one the more popular prophecies from Quaithe is that most of the the info could have been gained in a more mundane way from someone in Volantis at the time. Griff was out of hiding, the Iron fleet had stopped there. The widow had helped Tyrion. Quentyn had passed through.
Something I've always been surprised is never explored is Maester Walgrave. There are definitely suggestions in the lockbox that a glamor may be involved. There's the mystery of Yandal an Walys and the suggestion of a Hightower having an affair with a Maester. All of which could be answered by woman posing as a man to be a Maester. If this Maester is working with Marwyn it dovetails with his own time in Asshai and has access to his glass candle. The answer could be Seastar or even Malora, or others.
I've always been intrigued by the mask as it relates to Dany. There really shouldn't be anyone Dany would recognize behind the mask. The only reason as a story device to have it is so we don't. It sometimes makes me wonder if Dany would recognize her without it though.
Do you do audiobook narration Robert? I swear I've heard your voice at length before.
Amazing theory!
Could you do a video on if Melissandre had been at the battle of the Blackwater?
I thought magic had died from the world after the dance of the dragons so how is it that there was still powerful magic during Bloodravens time? Very curious
I think she's a part of the Faceless Men, because of her quotes and the mask she wears in the show, pity they didn't explore her more in the subsequent seasons of GoT
Maybe Azor Ahai was the friends we made along the way
For the last 7/8 months most nights with YT.P iv fell asleep 2 GOT audio or you. Last night listning 2 R.R i was kicking nyself for even paying tonight iv just got up 2 type this comment lol wjen i see u have a new vid up i wait all day asif its a treat. Ur maybe my fav channel, pod and all. ........ Im baked out my mind soz lol ! Said all that 2 say ur adds are like nothing iv seen before.
I’m starting to warm more and more to faegon being the prince that was promised
What happened to your “who is the Harpy” video. It was one of my favorites, listening to you work it out like a detective.
Hello Robert, at the beginning of the videos you still say you’re covering The Witcher in depth, but haven’t done any Witcher related videos for around a year now. Are you planning on making any more in the future? Thanks
This is awesome
It would be cool if Quaithe was Danny in the future trying to steer her path in the right direct with the help of the glass candles and the three eyed raven. I havnt read any of the books I just love the shows and these lore videos.
This drops AND an IMALLEXX doc from J Aubrey???? My night is set
My theory is she’s one of the Last Hero’s posse, out in the world working to contain ‘the others’.
I def thought dark flame was blackfyre and the perfumed senechal is the boat with aegon and Tyrion
Song of Ice & Fire: the Others vs. the Living, Jon vs. Daenerys, AND ... Shiera Seastar vs. Bynden Rivers (!?)
Not only do I love the theory that Quaithe is Shiera, I love to think that she had a daughter with Bloodraven - Melisandre.
I also like to think they're still in contact with each other.
Interesting! Once upon a time lovers -Bloodraven influencing Jon Snow and Seastar aka Quaithe influencing Danearys ,would be lovers. Its possible they were scheming since Summerhall.
Good stuff
I think Quaithe is one of George’s biggest regrets. He needed an NPC to pass Dany that cryptic message of “to go north you must south”, but he now realizes he needs to explain her background and he never intended to do that. Even the message itself I suspect was something George may have found interesting at the time, but now he can’t fit its contents with the real story.
If they each are championing the other, the tragedy of jon killing dan is exponentially enhanced
“Who is the Quaithe and what does she want?”
I don’t think George RR Martin cares anymore.
My gut feeling is that she tried to guide Dany to become the hero the setting needed, and Dany choosing not to learn a truth she truly needed on her quest will be her downfall.
I got the same sense, watching this video.
Would've _loved_ if Dany's POV had taken us to Ashai, and we could've explored some of its secrets...
Shiera Seastar would also add more point to the whole mummers dragon plotline because she might have a personal grudge against blackfyres. For other mages, magic or destiny a dragon should be a dragon whether or not it is black or red. But for somebody that lived through, it might be important. Who is truly, legally the rightful hair should not be important as it is perceptions that matter. Seastar would add a point of view that cares about it.
Even for Dany the rebellion is ancient history and blackfyres are still relatives. She might be inclined to not care too much especially since she can't have children. A distant relative might be completely good enough as a heir for her but not for Seastar.
Great video
Well I’m convinced
Yeah i mean especially when you consider the literary irony it’s gotta be Shiera. Even without at shes the best bet. Very interesting character, who conspicuously has no end to her story.
Is this a re-upload?
With House of the Dragon practically confirming Danny as the Princess that was promised, I still hold out some hope that Jon might still be the Prince that was promised. Like Missandei says concerning the prophecy in the show, that the proper translation is plural. What if instead of Prince or Princess, it is instead Prince and Princess?
Along with the Remember who you are the dragons know and all of the other pairs of characters physically together I e always been of the belief of Dany herself being the mummers dragon. It makes way more sense than Aegon, who wants to align with her.