The Disastrous Relationship Between Israel, Palestinians and the U.N.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 พ.ค. 2024
- The international legal system was created to prevent the atrocities of World War II from happening again. The United Nations partitioned historic Palestine to create the states of Israel and Palestine, but also left Palestinians with decades of false promises. The war in Gaza - and countless other conflicts, including those in Syria, Yemen and Ethiopia - shows how little power the U.N. and international law have to protect civilians in wartime. So what is international law actually for?
Aslı Ü. Bâli is a professor at Yale Law School who specializes in international and comparative law. “The fact that people break the law and sometimes get away with it doesn’t mean the law doesn’t exist and doesn’t have force,” she argues.
In this conversation, Bâli traces the gap between how international law is written on paper and the realpolitik of how countries decide to follow it, the U.N.’s unique role in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from its very beginning, how the laws of war have failed Gazans but may be starting to change the conflict’s course, and more.
Mentioned:
“With Schools in Ruins, Education in Gaza Will Be Hobbled for Years (www.nytimes.com/2024/05/06/wo...) ” by Liam Stack and Bilal Shbair
Book Recommendations:
Imperialism, Sovereignty and the Making of International Law (www.cambridge.org/core/books/...) by Antony Anghie
Justice for Some (www.sup.org/books/title/?id=2...) by Noura Erakat
Worldmaking After Empire (press.princeton.edu/books/har...) by Adom Getachew
The Constitutional Bind (press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/...) by Aziz Rana
The United Nations and the Question of Palestine (www.cambridge.org/core/books/...) by Ardi Imseis
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast (www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-k...) . Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-... (www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-...) .
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Carole Sabouraud.
How do you title a podcast "The Disastrous Relationship Between Israel, Palestinians and the U.N." and never mention UNWRA in the entire discussion?
For everyone who is saying wow, it’s horrible to hear this lady
I totally understand how you feel.
When you live for so long with certain lies as facts
And then someone get you to see the real truth
It is very very hard to accept
But it’s the truth
And all of should be nauseous with with our silence in what was happening to the Palestinians for decades
sarah - it does seem to be the truth according to Hamas; it will be that some IDF behaved badly - perhaps if your relatives were among the hostages. But accepting equality between most acts and stated aims seems perverse. Once, of course, you think after 2000 years of persecution, Israel should not exist, then it's understood.
Therefore, is it also OK for Hamas supporters in their thousands to commit random atrocities on innocents in all western countries, because that must logically follow?
@@willdon.1279 What are you babbling about? You cannot be referring to protesters in your last sentence, can you? After saying that only "SOME IDF behaved badly"?! Holy crap, some people are sheltered from reality. Must be nice to see your special worldview validated in every event, no matter how contradictory. For my part, I prefer to live in the real world, ugly as it is.
I keep reading/hearing zionists yell and yell "Lies! Lies!" Yet almost never do they explain what is a lie and why is it so. Even when I sincerely ask. So I can only surmise that they're simply repeating hasbara talking points which is to automatically smear dissenting views as lies. Prove me wrong, people please take a point made by Aslı Ü. Bâli and debunk it with verifiable facts.
Hugely enlightening as ever. Thanks guys 👏
The lack of challenge made to her points is fairly shocking.
Because she is speaking truth.
Hahahahaha, best joke I've ever heard @@WhataMensch
If it’s acceptable for some of the IDF to behave badly because they had families amongst the hostages
Then you have to accept that all Palestinians after NAKBA have the right to do whatever they want with anyone who they associate with the killing that happened to their family
And will will this lead us
Where will it lead the world to
Speaking of Nakbas, maybe all the islamic countries should give back the lands and businesses they stole from Jews over the last 1500 years. Remember that the Nakba was state encouraged migration, the neighboring Islamic empires asked the people to leave while they massacre the yahuds. The Muslims that stayed live peacefully in Israel today as citizens. Those with a world view of 'get rid of the yahud' cannot live peacefully with Jews, let us be honest with ourselves.
It's interesting to whom you use the words "some" and "all". Why did you choose those words?
@@t-townfoxtrot5181 because that's the world view of the culture they represent.
Nobody is giving a pass to the IDF, it's Hamas and their terrorist atrocities the world wants to conveniently ignore
I appreciate the calm, matter of fact nature of this discussion. Laying out the situation without it packaged in feelings or opinion is refreshing. The extent to which the U.N. is deemed ineffective has a ton to do with the U.S. and our capacity to subject ourselves to the standards we espouse.
Amazing post!
Being unemotional or unopinionated about genocide is not a good thing. The very idea reminds me of all the times I've heard about convicted murderers who "showed no emotion" on hearing their fate. Not good.
@@meganbaker9116 I’m not suggesting numbness or indifference. What I am saying is that constructive discussion can rarely occur on this topic if it’s wrapped in rage, vitriol or incessant blame. In my experience, collecting informed points of view trumps opinion any day of the week. We get riled up easy enough on our own. I prefer to hear discussions, not fights. The news ‘debates’ have become more Jerry Springer than helpful discourse.
@@appropriatelyinappropriate13 I agree that this is a very contentious issue that has seen extremes of emotions on both sides. Personally, I feel that it's just human to feel outrage at the slaughter being carried out with U.S. taxes, but the whole thing is hardly conducive to rational discussion when the two sides are so far apart and so committed to their perspectives. That said, I obviously believe that objective research, as I dove into after 10/7, yields one conclusion and not the other.
@@meganbaker9116 I can understand that for sure. I've had outrage several times over the past 8 months for myriad reasons (and there are hundreds of reasons to be outraged about this whole thing). Personally, I get agitated when I see people being baited into an all or nothing, binary choice of who to be for and who to be against when it's the 'what' we should be discussing. I've had it with the talking heads on tv stirring shit and furthering the divide. None of us are immune from being manipulated into an us vs. them stance. Above all else, I want the fighting to end and aid to get to the people in Gaza. Eradicating a population in the name of security is not kosher.
Disappointing not to have Ezra challenge his guest’s anti-Israeli biases. For example, the fact that Jews who emigrated to the British mandate of Palestine were refugees who were fleeing for their lives, not colonizers. Another example, is when the guest suggested that “police action” be used to go into Gaza and apprehend the specific individuals involved in the Oct 7th attack.
I hope Ezra can either challenge factual inaccuracies of his guests more forcefully or choose to invite more distinguished, balanced individuals to speak.
This is a really disturbing conversation. It's a long way of saying 'Israel did not have any legal routes of remedy after October 7th'. There was obviously no way for Israel to 'arrest' Hamas leaders within Gaza. One has to wonder whether it would even have been possible for the Allies to defeat Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan in WW2 given the 'rules of war' apparently enacted. International law appears totally inadequate to the changing nature of armed conflict.
You cannot pretend history started on October 7th.
Israel is the occupying force since you seem to have forgotten
What is Israel trying to remedy with its ground invasion of Gaza? I see no clear strategy for Israel to actually end this conflict. It appears to be motivated by revenge and collective punishment of Palestinians. This is similar to what other powers have done throughout history against all population after some of them attacked. For example, the Russians punished the Circassians after their raids by burning their villages, and Europeans did the same to indigenous people around the world.
Why is the starting point October 7 to ask about rights? Did Israel have any legal or moral right to occupy Palestinian territories since 1967? Or, if we go further back, did it have any right to expel and prevent the return of 80% of Palestinians (ethnic cleansing) in 1948 in order to create its own state?
Please don’t compare hamas to the invading armies of Germany and Japan
You can just read about the Warsaw ghetto uprising
And then you will see the similarities
When you treat humans like animals
Don’t be surprised when they act animals
That’s the Palestinians story
@@sarahadam8334 Did the Jews rape, butcher, torture, burn alive and massacre civilians on the basis that they were German civilians with the intent of traumatising not just them but the entire nation?
Omfg, serious and series of bending over backwards to wash hamas's feet. She makes it sound like the international law does exist solely to punish Israel/Jews every which way everywhere under the sun. I am a fkin' international lawyer (Turkish-American & Muslim) and this lady made me extremely nauseous🙅♀️
@michellenorris8471 No she wasn't. The moment she stated that Hamas does not pose an existential threat to Israel I knew she was full of it. Their own spokesman has gone on television and said merely weeks after the Oct. 7th attacks that they will do it again, and again until Israel is no more. She's a shill.
Yes, it’s very hard for some one to see the horrible truth at last
After living for so long with certain lies as facts
@@sarahadam8334 I assume you're talking about Hasbara, which seems to be rooted very deeply in many peoples' minds.
@michellenorris8471 🎯
@michellenorris8471 keep up the massacre mindset. Lots of Muslims live freely in Israel until today. Jews should never forgive Europe and do random massacres all of the Europeans? Jews should never forgive the entire middle east and do random massacres where they used to live until they were driven out? You are psychotic.
This guest is excellent. Excellent presentation, knowledgeable, and a very calming manner.
What are her anti Israel biases you alluude to?
The guest was clueless and clearly disingenuous
@@Santirata it is the other way around. you are not accustomed to hearing the actual substantive criticisms of Israel
@@lau_dhondt I am. I'm talking about the massive amount of hyperbole with no basis in reality.
Good interview
"israel should have engaged in police action to apprehend hamas" this woman should do stand up comedy. Thats like saying the US ahould have sent the NYPD into Kabul to arrest bin laden.... Does she live on a different planet?
Someone doesn’t understand what a police action is…
The Korean War was famously a "Police Action." It's a term that has kind of a special meaning to the UN.
@@justin4911 I don't think this lady would have much appreciated it if Israel had employed force to a similar degree that the US did during the Korean war.
@@bdenbhurrito Please, enlighten me
You’d think a country that was born from an act of rebellion would be able to understand a national liberation movement as more than mere ‘terrorism’. The fact that America and UK are allies should give us hope that Israel and Palestine can be allies one day too.
The end goal of Palestinian statehood is not "liberty and justice for all", and an end of monarchy to begin a nation state with enfranchised citizens, its another Islamic theocratic shithole where they massacre and remove all non-Muslims and then start antagonizing other nations. Looking at the Palestinian motives and goals FURTHER delegitimizes their idiotic struggle.
israel was not born in rebellion. it was a UN proposal reluctantly accepted by Israel and rejected by the palestinians. the israelis have always wanted peace but the palestinians have never had a peace movement to coexist in peace....violence has been tried, now it must be condemned so peace can have a chance
@@michaelmoskowitz3212 Reading comprehension, dude. He or she was referring to the United States being born in rebellion. But no, Israel was not born in rebellion. Quite the contrary: it was born to be an outpost of white "civilization" in the Middle East and was nurtured by colonial powers, as it is coddled and funded by them today. Hardly rebellious, except against decency.
@@meganbaker9116 yes that rebellion was violent and if we lost and caused a nakba then why keep trying violence and never try peace? we also evolved to produce MLK jr. and yes the british and west tried to colonize the area like the ottomon turks but the jews kicked them out. Israel is an example of decolonization.
the jews in Europe and arabia that were ghettoized and pogrumed until the holocaust because they were outsiders finally returned home to Israel. they were expelled under the colonial roman empire then not allowed to return under the colonial ottoman empire, but after the defeat of the genocidal ottomans in ww1 jews were finally allowed back under british. then the palestinians met with hitler to try and keep the jews out and exterminate them from arabia. the palestinians have never protested or wanted to coexist in peace with Israel.
@@meganbaker9116 you clearly hate Jews. Israel is not a white country. You are applying 'talking points' without really knowing what you are 'talking' about.
the way this guest frames - and minimizes - the Russian war of aggression against Ukraine could come straight from Putin's or Lavrov's playbook
disturbing, to say the least
Thank you Ezra. This guest is just about one of the most perspicacious and cogent commentators on the Palestine Israel conflict that I have ever heard.
She was an incredible speaker in every regard from delivery to knowledge to proper contextualization and framing.
Yes, I was amazed how she could regurgitate such one sided nonsense and keep a straight face
Crazy how math and international law somehow became antisemitic
She’s pretty plainly saying that Hamas’ actions are supported by international law and Israel’s are a war crime. She also completely elided over Russia’s crimes against Ukraine - abducting children, pledging to erase Ukraine’s culture.
Your reaction is perfect for this conflict. She did not remotely say what you think she said.
Literally everything you said was a lie
A phenomenal podcast. Wow! She is amazing. I hope to hear more from her. Her knowledge of international law is off the chain!!!!
Arabs got less than half but better land. If this 45/55 split is what all the deaths have been about. Maybe look at Jordan
correct, and there were jews living in transjordan who were forced to leave in 1948 - maybe jews from those families should massacre jordanias? because they were displaced in 1948? yes, that is what this 'professor' says
When u say give the majority territory to the Jews in 1947 I suggest you go back to look at the map
Ezra's statement of Russia's objective is not correct. Russia never stated it wished to eradicate the government of Ukraine. Russia stated it had legitimate security interests related to NATO expansion, since 2009, and was ready to agree to a truce in March 2020 upon the condition that Ukraine not join NATO and remain neutral.
Russia claimed Ukraine was a "Nazi" state and launched an invasion to conquer the country. Don't believe their lies.
Israel can't do anything about 10/7 except ask Hamas for jurisdiction to arrest Hamas. But Russia invading Ukraine is totally fine and has nothing to do with Internation Law. The US is the only country that uses Security Council vetoes for it's own interest, Russia and China would never violate their integrity.
Beautifully spoken!!
I’m really disappointed that this the person you had on your show to discuss this. I remember shortly after the war started, your podcast felt like a refuge, but this person is straight up lying, and you’re not challenging it at all. There were one or two other episodes that I felt kind of uncomfortable with previously, but at this point, I feel like you just kind of betrayed your listeners and the truth. There are things with critiquing and how this war has been waged, and you should be either making your guest stick to those or at least correcting her, if you couldn’t just get someone else entirely. So many sources of media have really been letdowns as this war has gone on. I really hope that these episodes have been flukes, and you haven’t become one of them.
The speaker consistently refers to the Arabs that were in the British Mandate of Palestine as Palestinians, while in every single document of that time the were referred to as Arabs. Palestinian identity didn’t actually come to be until the 1960’s through the PLO.
In 1948, the war was started by neighbouring Arab countries, the same countries from which the Local Arabs of the mandate came from. The Arabs of the mandate were represented in this matter by their own countries or territories of origin, as they were not a unified group by any means. They were just collectively the Arabs, no matter where they hailed from, whether it was Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq and so on. From the time the British mandate began after world war I up until the end of the mandate in 1948, every single person living in the mandate’s territory was called a Palestinian and had a Palestinian passport regardless of origin, religion and so on. Her gliding over these facts is very telling. So while Palestinians, in the sense of the word as it is today, meaning a specific people, deserve self determination, it is quite ridiculous to say that about 1948. That war in 1948 created a shared narrative for the Arabs of the mandate that did not exist prior to that war. They are a people since 1948, but beforehand were literally not even close to being a cohesive population. The thing they had in common with each other is being arab, but they were not a cohesive population with a distinct identity as for example Egypt or Syria.
Another point she forgets to mention is that in the partition plan, Israel got the desert and the swamp lands, and yet, they still agreed to the partition plan. The Arabs of 1948 simply miscalculated, and continued to do so over and over. This speaker is giving a highly forgiving account for the Palestinians almost constant manner of being counterproductive and unconstructive. They are not just passive bystanders as she makes them to be, they have responsibility for their own fate, but for some reason she doesn't appear to think they ever had any agency, and things just happen to them. Expertise in International Law doesn't mean you are not a hypocrite.
Another distortion is when she says that there are 14 million people living on that territory and then proceeds to divide them into 7 million Palestinians and 7 million Israelis/Jews. As Israel is comprised of 2 million arabs and 7 million Jews, all 9 million are Israelis. She just glides over things in a way that is so slick that it is easy to just not notice how she constructs a very specific narrative here.
What a twisted way of describing the conflict. "policing action as a response to Oct 7". Blaming Israel for not defending against the attack.
25:00 Many important missing details. Land allocation was allowed for planned expansion of the Jewish community with compensation using the broadly uninhabited Negev. This is to be taken into context that Arab self determination was granted in multiple states of arbitrary borders. The mandate system originally covered Palestine and Transjordan among others. The Jews were awarded right of self determination with a predominantly Jewish state in Palestine and a predominantly Arab state in Transjordan among many others. These lands were not exclusively Arab they constituted multiple ethnicities. Jews were Palestinian too and in fact the state of Israel is more accurately described as the state of Palestinian Jews and other ethnicities that accepted the terms of the UN plan whether it be diplomatically or by the virtue of either siding with the Palestinian Jews (eg Druze, Bedouin) or by agreeing to fold into the new state (Israeli Arabs)
Thank you for the clarification. I wondered why she did not mention TransJordan. The way she responded to the discussion regarding Oct 7 and post made her lose credibility in my eyes.
To the victors go the spoils was an earlier international understanding that also gave stability
Trying to shoe horn the conflict into a theoretical framework of "colionialism" in the "Global South" is absurd. These terms may have some general explanatory power, but to force fit them on to every conflict shows lazy thinking and an ideological bias.
War arises when the actors behave badly, and peace will occur when these actors want peace. The external forces, like this guest, who are goading israel and Palestine with false ideological or religious arguments, are delaying that peace.
Is colonialism not a factor? The West Bank settlements is pretty much textbook colonisation.
Wrongs have been done on both sides to be sure.
But to say the problem, and therefore the solution, is the same for the entire "global south" is silly.
There is a conflict between real people with real grievances. Force fitting a simplistic ideological framework doesn't help.
Great episode; I appreciate you bringing the guest's voice and knowledge to a broad audience.
Ezra, this podcast was an utter disgrace. You should be ashamed of the content put out here.
What do you object to so fiercely ?
Being abused for 2000 years
Does not give you the right to abuse others for 76 years
muslims abused Jews for the last 1500 years, the 'quran' is full of lies about Jews. The entire religion is about world domination and getting rid of everyone who is not a believer. Speaking of abusers.
Particularly when the people you've abused for 75 years gave you refuge from the people who abused you for 2000 years.
@@goldencalf5144 You mean, denied you refuge. And still deny that you should have self determination and the state you built to great heights in the last 76 years. If they gave refuge and allowed for self determination, there wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately that's not reality.
Lies lies...lies...she is so biased that she should not be advocate for international law.
The Great March of Return, a mass resistance movement begun in March 2018, initially provided a positive impact on community mental health via a sense of agency, hope, and unprecedented community mobilization. This improvement, however, has since been offset by the heavy burden of death, disability, and trauma suffered by protestors and family members
the violent march of return - yeah, we know about it, similar to the 'arab spring' uprising of gazans in egypt. not peaceful at all
@krl970 who did most of the violence during this march? It was the IDF
Suuper interesting very informative piece. Methinks we all think we’ve got our minds around the entirety of this (see: comments;) but in systems - things are attached to other things. A very worthwhile exploration in my view.
Very interesting and insightful discussion!
Her perspective was interesting, but she doesn't seem to seriously take Israelis defense needs into consideration. She mentions that israel should focus on working up its defence, but its done way more than any other country of its size, while also getting condemned for blockaiding gaza cause of its defence.
What a ludicrously one-sided take. Useful only for anti-Israelites who wish to validate their prejudices.
💯
Anti ? I felt it supported Israel. They were awarded 55% they won more because palatine did not accept this and started a war. Israel entitled to the additional amount won in war or just the 55% doesn't matter Palestine will not accept it.
39:36 oh ok she doesn't want Hamas destroyed .. hmm. She is slanted . Wonder if she knows she laid out a case Palestine is and has been reason for conflict.
@@SantirataI understand now what u saying but keeps deleting my response.
It should be noted, as the guest failed to do, that much of “land” allocated to the Jews was undeveloped, non-urbanized desert or mountainous land. Not all land is created equal.
Also, the populations were not equal. The land given to Jews would consist of 55% Jews 45% Arabs. The Arab state would be 99% Arab. They got less land, but the Arabs would not have to live with Jews. The Jews got more land, but would still have to share their portion.
I am sorry I don’t think you heard her
There was 10% native Jewish population in Palestine when the British took over and controlled it under a UN mandate
Like all colonised countries
The mandate was supposed to be only for a while until self determination to the native population
It was not to allow mass migration and change the demography
Then all that new population to take over land .
Land is land
It’s their land
If it was developed or not as long as the immigrants were not developing it for the benefit of the whole population.
Then they have no right in it
Also if you believe that any undeveloped land is there to be taken by anyone
Then please don’t leave your garden unattended
May be your someone from a far away land will come and take
It and according to your rule
He have every right to do so
@@sarahadam8334 Congrats, you completely missed the point of my comment and then went on a rant with a bunch of nonsense.
@@sarahadam8334
But you're an Arab so I shouldn't expect much more I guess.
The settler colonialism argument ONLY works if you fail to mention the pre-versailles Jewish refugees as well as the Jewish communities that were expelled by post-colonial middle eastern regimes.
Or if you quote David Ben-Gurion ("We must expel the Arabs and take their place") or many of the other founders of Israel, or mention some of their organizations that had the word "colonial" or some variation thereof in them. Your denial of the colonial nature of Israel is belied by your use of the word "post-colonial," is it not? Those expulsions you mention: Jewish populations were suddenly unwelcome in their countries right around the founding of Israel? The historians who've unpacked Israeli mythology, such as Ilan Pappe, beg to differ.
Colonialism isn't reduced to outsider invasion. The most violent colonialism was expansionism within a territory. Plenty of unopposed or even welcomed English settlers took it upon themselves to violently expand through resettlement, weapons superiority and forced population transfers. We have no problem understanding that as colonialism. The identification of Israel as a self-proclaimed Jewish state doesn't precede a local population of Jewish people living among other ethnicities. In other words it isnt that an ethnic group (Jews) is doing colonialism but rather a state, just like in all of the other case studies for colonialism.
Hey Ezra, good brave podcast.Thank you. Judging from some rude comments, I can tell some people in your audience are not at all accustomed to hearing criticism of Israel, and hearing some of the myths debunked, not even when expressed by such a mild-mannered good faith guest. Don't be bullied. You're a master of dialogue, a good man and we need you This is how we edge closer to peace and reconsiliation. Would you consider talking to Simone Zimmerman or Mehdi Hasan ?
Who was against the Oslo accord?
She actually believes Russia is fighting a special military operation
🙂🔫
Where did she say this?
Very glad to see the overall tone of the comments thus far. Clearly, the guest believes in a single Palestinian State in the entire area, and no Israel at all.
The first huge red flag was very early in the discussion when she called Palestinians "indigenous" with no mention that there has been ongoing, uninterrupted, continuous Jewish presence for roughly 1500 years before Islam was ever created!
Well done on the Palestinian erasure...
@@EduardoNomas-zv4ms That's just not true. More than half of the Israeli population is Sephardic meaning they hail from North Africa and the Middle East. The majority are not European.
@Eduardo - the refugees fleeing Europe were ethnically, culturally & genetically Jewish i.e indigenous to the land they were returning to. Werther you like it or not...
A lot of myth and misrepresentation here. Israel has citizens or European descent. A large percentage of the population is also Jews of N. African, Arab and Persian descent who were expelled from their homes when Israel was created. The estimated number is 850-900 thousand. Of these, 675K settled in Israel.
@@EduardoNomas-zv4ms The majority of Israelis today are descendants of the 900,000 Jews expelled from Middle Eastern & North African countries in retaliation for the formation of Israel
I found these comments more interesting than those done by Ezra in the interview with this pro Palestinian lady.
WILL SOMEONE AT TH-cam PLEASE REMOVE--OR ENABLE ME TO REMOVE!--THIS AND EVERY OTHER "COLLECTIVE PODCAST" JUNKING UP MY FEED!? (And then go back to feeding them one-by-one so I can make an individual decision about whether a certain individual topic interests me?) In the interim. I will only be clicking on vids that I know enough about to DESIRE to select, and have the option to remove from my incredibly lousy feed if I want to...
😂
Yo. Why is it completely ignored that Jews see themselves as indigenous to the land of Israel. Zionism is not colonisation to Jews. As long as discussions miss this point, they won't get to the heart of the issue. Also, Palestinians have always prioritised violence over diplomacy. Ask Bill Clinton
Oh pleeeeeeease
Keep believing in that fantasy
@@sarahadam8334 which one? The violence over diplomacy or the literal tons of archeological evidence and written history of indigenous proof? I would go for the former if I were you. But, there's still plenty of history and written history to make an argument for "that fantasy" too. I just have a problem with the word "Palestinians" as it makes them seem like a uniform group without the ability to hold differing opinions.
@@sarahadam8334 Israel and the millions of Jews who live there are not going anywhere. It does not matter how much you hate them.
Her premise is utterly preposterous, and frankly disgusting. Hamas' goal is not to "liberate" gaza but rather to obliterate Israel -- an internationally recognized sovereign nation. For that reason alone, any comparison to "national liberation forces" given some special status to allow asymmetric war against an occupier are invalid. Shame on Ezra for permitting this. I expected to listen and have some of my more passionate impulses calmed and challenged by Ezra's voice of reason -- but I wasn't expecting to hear full blown Hamas apologetics and propaganda go unchallenged.
Hamas doesn't have a miltary like Israel so how can they obliterate israel??
@@sholay706 there is clearly a militia and tens of thousands of bombs. They have a long history of murderous ideology.
@@sholay706 The fact that they don't have the means to do so militarily doesn't mean it's not their goal. This is why they resort to such tactics that leads to many dead Palestinians to de-legitimize Israel's right to exist, i.e if they can't do so with force, they'll use other ways.
@itayifergan The are fighting against occupation.. I am sure the black slaves wanted their masters dead but they didn't have the means for it lol. The occupying force is Israel
The guest was talking about Palestinians, you're talk ing about Hamas. That's where you got confused.
As to targeting residential structures like hospitals Article 19 of the Geneva Convention is quite clear. 1. The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. 2. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded.
On both counts, Israel is complying with the Geneva Conventions. Hamas is actively using these buildings for military purposes in a deliberate attempt to get Palestinian civilians killed -- and Israel has not hit any residential or civilian area or target without giving prior warning.
Over the last 10 years from 2014 through October 6, 2023, a comprehensive tabulation of names, dates, and circumstances of Palestinian and Israeli deaths caused by the other side (Israel-Palestine Timeline) shows that Israeli forces have killed 3,888 Palestinians (38% of them children), while Palestinian forces killed 279 Israelis (7% of them children). It seems to me the equal question is whether Palestine had the right to defend themselves from Israel, including by force, given Israelis' continued intrusion, blockade, and killing in Gaza and the West Bank. Why is Palestine's right to defend itself never raised?
Where can I find your source for these figures?
A mild mannered, softly spoken repudiation of Israel's right to self defense in particular, and for existence in general.
They have neither.
full of lies and half truths. the truth is the palestinians have never had a peace movement to coexist with israel. if they did the conflict would be over.
full of lies and half truths. the truth is the palestinians have never had a peace movement to coexist with israel. if they did the conflict would end and they would have their own state.
full of half truths. the palestinians have never had a peace movement to coexist with Israel. if they did the conflict would be over and the palestinians would have their own state.
@@michaelmoskowitz3212 Tell that to the hundreds of kids who were shot by the IOF in the Great March of Return. Palestine is no longer waiting. They will take back their land. All of it.
The lady had my attention as she talked about the mandate and 1948. There were perspectives I hadnt considered. Apart from my wanting to know if the 55-45% partition of Plaestinian mandate was counting TransJordan or without, she seemed very knowledgeable and credible . She COMPLETELY lost any credibility as an independent observer however, when she started responding to the discussion on Oct 7 th and beyond. I was born in the global south and sorry bit I absolutely do not agree with Isreal being a colonizer. I do however see the utter, intentional blindness to the creed of radical Islam that weaponizes woman and children. This is an unequal battle between a culture that wants to play by modern rules and one that will try to take advantage of those rules while being barbaric themselves.
Well said!
Listening to this podcast I am afraid that Ezra is not aware that those living in Gaza were kept by Israel in a state of confinement and deprevation.
By Hamas! Those who stole international aid to fund tunnels and rockets while Palestinians were robbed of their ability to thrive. Israel wants peace, Hamas and the those who support them only want the destruction of Israel and all Jews (they say so). If Palestinians had a state, which they never said they wanted, would Hamas/Iran be in charge as an Islamic caliphate? The entire Middle East is under Muslim rule, many who limit the ability to practice Judaism or Christianity. There’s not room for one tiny sliver of a democratic Jewish homeland to live in peace with their neighbors? 😢
Ezra, if you want people to support Israel, you must explain why it is okay for the Israelis to refuse to let the Palestinians on the West Bank vote. The white South Africans said, "We can't let the blacks vote. They are a bunch of barbarians, and if we give them equal rights, the crime rate will drastically increase." Now the Israelis are saying the same thing about the Palestinians. If you think the black South Africans deserved the right to vote, how can you argue that Palestinians on the West Bank don't deserve the right to vote? I don't see any difference.
This lady is clearly employed by Hamas.
Palestinian Holocaust
Palestinian Holocaust would be easy if that were Israel's goal. The size of Gaza and the West Bank is minuscule compared to the attrocities Hitler and the Nazi's accomplished. If Israel wanted to, this speaks very loudly to intent, they could easily wipe out all the millions of Palestinians. They will not do this. They do not have that intent. They do not have that goal.
And as much as you would like to injure the Jews by labelling them as the purpotrators of their most tragic and traumatic victimization, it is just wrong. And in that wrongness, you demonsrate an ignorance or an emotionally harmful intent that is needlessly injurous.
And yes, amazingly, I can tell all of this from two words. Bravo on your word selection!
@@t-townfoxtrot5181 Palestinian Genocide
@@emmettjones8075 That's a less hurtful word choice. Thank you. It's still not accurate though. This "genocide" started with 750,000 Palestinians. Now there's 3 million in the West bank and 2 million in Gaza. At the very least maybe call it an "extremely ineffectual genocide from the strongest military in the region". That makes it more accurate and also less sense to use the term genocide now, doesn't it?
Another innefectual genocide is from Hamas' charter in 1988. They WANT to remove all the Jews "from the river to the sea". They're just not very good at genocide either. Granted, they are a weaker military. So, that makes more sense too, right?
29:00 The suggestion that Israel could police Gaza and pursue convicted terrorists is nonsensical. The incident on October 7 involved numerous points of attack against Israel using rockets and direct land incursions. The attack was a breach of a war ceasefire. The response is war of course
It was an invasion by air, land, and sea. This woman is a professional gaslighter.
War with people you are occupying who have no military and in an open air prison??
@@sholay706 they clearly have a foreign supported militia and weapons, they have been bombing Israel nonstop for about 20 years.
Yes Because both points are misrepresentations. Gazans have had the right to self determination and have been free of a military occupation since 2005. The Israeli and Egyptian blockade was enacted to contain Arms smuggling that was feeding the relentless wave of rockets numbering tens of thousands sent from Gaza into Israel. Paradoxically the blockade ought to have reduce the risk of triggering war by giving less ability to send projectiles But given how long James have held up with a huge amount of weaponry is a clear indication that this blockade could not have been that strict. in addition Hamas funded the Islamic state insurgency in Egypt that has claimed the lives of 10,000 people. The blockade was enacted for specific reasons.
@@user-ox6hj6bm3t it is heavily infiltrated with muslim brotherhood offshoots, muslim brotherhood is 100 years old and predates the state of israel. It is clear who funds this 'professor's' research.
This kind of discussion should be in a form of debate between two prospectives. It is very clear where she is coming from, but I have no doubt that Israel considered international law and a knowledgeable scholar could have explained that perspective.
And to cap it off, Ezra allowed her to rattle off a series of Hamas apologist websites and podcasts. I'm sorry Ezra didn't ask her directly if she supports a two-state solution where Palestinians would have security and sovereignty -- or rather thinks Palestine should get it all and see Israel cease to exist. I would have liked to hear that answer. In my own conversations with people on this subject now I usually make sure to start there. I consider those who seek a two-state solution to be compatriots of sorts, even if we have significant points of contention -- and consider those who do not, whether advocating for either Israel or Palestine to "get it all" to be enemies of humanity and decency.
th-cam.com/video/bngdpQOG3BM/w-d-xo.htmlsi=FJbk66IIgyOt6JRY
You might find this guy (Rudi Rochmann) has an interesting perspective - I see a lot of problems with his dream, but he makes his point with passionate enthusiasm.
A 6-storey building with civilian apartments, 20+ families in it. And in the basement Hamas has an improvised bunker, with soldiers, weapons and supplies. Seems pretty human-shieldish to me. And pretty intentional too. Any concrete ideas how to contact these families and provide them with 'viable path for evacuation'?
Police action?
Is this comedy?
Why is Ezra supine for this nonsense?
You should have understood what a police action means before making your ignorant comment
It's weird that she did not considered Arab Israelis as enjoying full citizenship in Israel. It was a very insightful podcast, but often she was in the gray area of partisanship.
That's not the matter at hand. The matter at hand is the political rights of people in Gaza and West Bank
It’s not partisanship when it’s the truth…
I didn't pick up any "grey" areas. She seemed, very calmly, to say Israel should not exist. Black & White.
@@bdenbhurritoexactly my point
@@kircharles apologies, misread your point
This is one of the best conversations on the Palestinian Israel issue in a while!
LOL at these liberals discussing "International Law". The only International Law is that might makes right. Always has been, always will be. As an American I thank God for that every day.
Both sides are doing war crimes, and nobody's stopping them. Both sides are at war, and neither is obeying the laws of war. Both sides have ratified the Geneva Conventions, and neither is obeying them. The world is talking, and people on both sides are dying. The world is sending weapons to each of the sides while demanding those who send weapons to the other stop. Everyone picks a side and becomes belligerent when any valid challenge to their side's action is brought up. There is no end in sight.
Except the symmetry is false. One side is a trained military with the biggest and wealthiest empire in history backing it up. While the other is a group of people that is suffering under a brutal occupation. If two people are fighting. It’s not two guys fighting. It more like a guy hitting a disabled kid. While the kid trying to fight back.
@@Mohammed-xg9ws that's not reality, that's your bias. There are 7 million people to a side, and billions of dollars in military support to a side, this isn't an unfair contest. Yes, the Israeli side is more organized, but that doesn't make a suicide bomber or even a kid throwing a block through a windshield less harmful. People die even when your weapons aren't sophisticated, as long as you point and shoot...
@@Mohammed-xg9ws cute infantilizing the palestinian culture of celebrating suicide bombing and random stabbings. In fact, the entire muslim world uses the palestinians for its ongoing holy war against their enemy, the Jews.
@@Mohammed-xg9wsit is not a disabled guys more like a really scrawny guy trying to fight against a professional boxer. Does scrawny guy probably shouldn't have picked a fight with the professional boxer then
Israel is an example of decolonization. Jews weren’t allowed to return home under the colonial Ottoman Empire but returned to Israel the first chance they got under British. Also although technically awarded more land by the UN it was the undesirable desert lands not the mountain city centers.
The diaspora started before the ottoman empire or Islam even existed? Why didn't they return sooner and not 2000 years after they were gone?
@@ssun190 weren't allowed back under colonial roman empire either, but jews always maintain some presence in the land. jews were ghettoized and pogrumed in europe and arabia during diaspora .....
@@ssun190 ummm, because they majority of the Ashkenazi weren’t converted yet, so why would these Russians think about going to the Middle East? My goodness, the European colonial powers are the "gift" that keeps giving 400 years later…
@@mikeharper3459 I guess what I'm questioning is OP's claim that they "returned to Israel the first chance they got under the British." I mean certainly ottoman policy isn't responsible for the Jews not returning to the holy land before the Ottomans even existed.
@@ssun190 they weren't allowed back after the colonial roman empire kicked them out either. not hard to understand. however some jews always maintained some presence in the land. also once in europe they were treated as outsiders and ghettoized and pogrumed until holocaust. also were genocided from all arab countries.
12:10 Man this is jibberish
What does international law have to say about how the IDF killed their own citizens on October 7 or the thousands of Palestinian hosta- I mean prisoners they’ve taken before and after Oct 7?
Uh oh! Someone didn't listen to the podcast.
The Palestinians have never peacefully protested to coexist with Israel in peace. If they did the conflict would end and they would have their own state where they could have their own right of return for their citizens.
Really…do you think the state of Israel was born in peace? You have zero idea of the history of the region, so should really take the Churchillian approach to not confirming one’s idiocy.
It’s clearly too detailed, nuanced and extensive a history for you to process.
@@mikeharper3459 youre right it was born in conflict because the palestinians refused to coexist and declared war on israel. guaranteed i know more than you about the issue.
@@mikeharper3459As someone born and raised in the region: you have no fkin' idea about who the Palestinians are. That said, yes, they will never live with Jews in peace. They are not really capable of living in peace. Period. Ask me how I know🙋♀️🇹🇷🇮🇱🇺🇸
Well that’s a lie
@@bdenbhurrito name one time they peacefully protested to coexist with israel
😂so basically she confirmed that Israel is targeted by the United Nations. Then you expect them to to really participate in the international community
My comments were deleted.
What lies is this nerd gonna spew today?
The UN and the voting against Israel had deligitamized not only peacekeeping and other functions of the UN but the ICJ and the ICC