Can the Mercedes W14 be saved? F1 Aero Engineer Explains
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
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CFD Images courtesy of Kurt and Josh at www.f1technical.net 03:20
I sat down with a former colleague and F1 Aerodynamicist João Ginete to discuss ALL of the possible benefits and downsides of the radical Mercedes Zero-Pod Design.
As my background is mostly vehicle performance and race engineering, having an in-depth, but easy-to-understand break-down of the zero-pod was really fantastic for me as well.
But the big question is, will Mercedes ditch this design, or do they feel that the benefits are there, but they just need more time to develop it?
Oh Yeah - João also hosts a (mostly) Portuguese-speaking F1 podcast called Domingos Podcast - Check it out: t.co/91yAouFJ5V
I stream F1 Race Watchalongs and analysis here:
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Was sent here by my subs. Good to see more high quality F1 information making it out onto the internet, especially on the performance engineering side. Nice channel, keep it up!
Hey man! I love your work! I was just going through your channel yesterday checking out some of your vehicle dynamics explained stuff. I've also binged your 2023 car stuff. Great work!
Wow they've got your seal of approval
Kyle and Blake together would be HUGE!!!
@@brrrake Subscribers could do wonders. Can we expect a collab in future? 😉
Can you create a video on what a typical run plan would look like for a pre season testing session
It is difficult to grasp all the concepts, ideas and philosophies mentioned as aerodynamics is not my strongest suite. But this is a great insight into the topic. Very much enjoyed it. Thank you to you both.
I think both ferrari and Mercedes don't have problems of speed but of optimising race. Clearly both have a high deg that, if not for redbull and Aston Martin, no one would have cared for.
You can almost feel that Merc will come up with something crazy again like the DAS again, only to get it banned. Their narrow operation window has an insane opportunity for innovation.
Should’ve kept DAS. Idk why but why not
Not really. They can’t spend 400 million + anymore 😂
Thank you, hopefully this video will break it down simply enough for those who don’t necessarily understand it and blamed everything on the sidepods.
It's easy to say, but there are so many aspects which are important to consider!
Excellent one, really enjoyed it
Excellent, Thanks, So clear, I can't believe I got this much information in just 12 minutes, also the Buymeacoffee is not working in my region India
How come you guys can create F1 content but listen to none of the F1 design engineers that have commented on other well known F1 channels. The design was good using CFD, but the same NEW regulations, did not allow equal wind tunnel time for the 2021-2022 constructors champions. This was done so that those champions did not have the ability to properly develop their car to hand the advantage to other teams. So had Merc had that wind tunnel time they could have tuned the chassis better for 2022. They did get that time towards the middle of 2022 to the end and that's when they realized that the actual issue was under the chassis. The media's "zeropod" there is actually a sidepod it's just not wide as the other teams, is a good design and was not the reason the W13 was not competitive.
Which F1 design engineers commented on well known channels? As for the rest of your comment... what?
@@brrrake On for one, Peter Windsor's channel. As for the rest of my comment, exactly that, it's not the "zeropod" that's a problem, the problem was that Mercedes was not able to better tune their chasis as they did not have much wind tunnel time as the other teams, because they were the previous champions.
Will this be a long one or just a short?
good question 👍
Imagine setting your alarm for 3am only to be presented with a short 😫😭
@@aximusroh6453 I know the shorts have become popular but I don't like them. So I ask so I don't hype my self and then is not a long form.
@@bitshous I hear you buddy 👍
Its about 13 minutes long!
@@brrrake thanks for answering. ✊🏽
Good news. They didn’t change the concept.
Between you, B-sport and Kyle.Engineers I feel I understand aero philosophy much better! I don't fully understand, but I at least have a less hazy picture. :) I'd love a collabaration between you 3 on the Williams FW14b /McLaren Mp4/4 and Jordan B191.
So this video is about the w13, even though the title says w14
So.... Yes. Also. Yes.
In my opinion Mercedes made a very big mistake! Introducing their no sidepod nonsense, or was it done by purpose? 🤔 anyway now that they've gotten rid of the no sidepod nonsense just look at the difference!!
F1 Fan Since 1977 age 10
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There really hasn't been much of a difference tho, no?
@brrrake I don't have access to any data, so I'm relying on my memory, but I can say 2 changes:
1 Hamilton seems to be more competitive since the change. The car still isn't anywhere near competitive with RB, but it seems to have improved with the rest of the field, at least slightly. (And except for McLaren!)
2 the new setup doesn't agree with Russell. While last year's car seemed to fit George better than Hamilton, this year's seems opposite.
Does the data of the last 3 or 4 races change your opinion?
Also, is the data you use available publicly?
Thanks, and great vids!!!!
all merc innovations always end up band.
0 side pods soon if they really crack it and obliterate the competition.
Please explain.
"Last year Mercedes shocked the motor sport world" by showing them that they too knew how to build a crap car 😀
Shows their wind tunnel isn't worth a fart
Not necessarily true. Aston use Mercs tunnel 🥲
Ferrari needed to help Mercedes-Benz to sneak and take down FIA out of business
Why the TX flag?
I'm from Texas! 🤠
Lol dont call the 'mirror arm' a wing 😂 cos FIA decided that it is a mirror arm.... not a wing... a wing would be forbidden you know 😁
I won't say it if you don't say it 😂
This is pointless, the obvious answer is no
You are in grave danger of becoming synonymous with the word "comprehensive". This is a mini masterpiece. Bravo 👏 and thank you 👍
That is very kind! Thank you. I'm really glad you found it insightful, I certainly did!
And it to to
Amazing, an F1 video that actually goes into technical detail and isn't just a bunch of regurgitated content or completely made up rumors! I applaud your efforts sir. You've got my sub.
This was so interesting. I would love to see a follow-up with João now that we have seen the first race. Because Merc did get rid of the bouncing, but the car is still far off the pace target and Toto announced radical changes. What could those be that are viable in regards to the current season?
Your channel is slowly becoming a pearl.
Best analysis so far. No joke. Ridiculously good.
I appreciate that a lot!
@@brrrake I hope you'll continue this way, with interview with your former colleagues etc. All year throughout the whole season
@@AndreaGiramondi I'll try but MOST of them can't talk to me 😂
It's seems RedBull avoided the porpoising dilemma, and you mentioned the wind tunnel didn't exacerbate the problem like real world tracks did. Looking at their design decisions, did RedBull anticipate this or just get lucky?
Having Adrian Newey designing the car is a big advantage
Adrian Newey had already dealt with porpoising decades ago
I think it's more to do with their philosophy and size of window. People knew it was possible but no one seemed to be able to predict it exactly. Everyone lost performance trying to cope with it. I don't think they were lucky, but the safe approach paid off
Newey knew. He did his homework and the others didn't.
@@IndigoInka It's not so much that he did his homework when others didn't. He is the only active designer who was around during the last downforce era, which is a pretty huge advantage
Blake I’d be very interested if you as a performance engineer (formerly) would consider making a series about different drivers driving styles!
Hey Raymond. This is something that is usually pretty subjective and fluffy stuff... I could talk for an hour about it without actually saying anything 😂😂
@@brrrake so you gonna do it. Nice 👍🙂
@@brrrake just means it’s got to be a 5-part video of an hour each 🤪
Just look at Verstappen's driving style. He gets in the car, rev it up and beats everything on the track. The best driver on the grid since 2016
Given the advantages and possibilities with the zero pod design. If Merc has figured out what exactly the missing link was. The W14 will surely be a monster.
Uuuunfortunately, after race 1, it appears that according to Mercedes, they did pretty much figure out everything they could pull from the concept and they're still behind. Seems to be a case where theory and implementation don't align due to the messiness of on-track conditions. Will be very interesting to see what they do bring this year, and what next year's car ends up being.
Honestly mercedes stating they have a W14b concept seems very unlikely would be kinda crazy if a team can have two car concepts completely developed without overspending the cap
@@dreadfullyeti6686 well maybe they have decided to cheat like red bull who cares right all team should be like max and do what they want
This only gives me 2 conclusions either merc has fked around this concept a lot to find out its viability in last season or they had found some ginormous advantage in zerpods hence fked around in 2022 to give others false hopes of their downfall
Toto has said they found a massive performance advantage but realistically it isn't the case because they couldn't run it under optimal settings like they could in the sim
Thanks for the explanation! I suspect this design is the root cause of their performance issues. They don't seem to have enough down force. Time for Toto to push the design engineers to move back to a traditional design in my view.
hello, im only in the beginning of high school, and i want to be an formula 1 engineer. Can you give some advices? İ will be very happy if you answer
I made a video specifically on this. Have a look 👍
This is a great video I wish I knew you had a channel that made content like this, but I only every see your news channel in my TH-cam feed.
Amazing content! Makes me love Mercedes even more for daring! Daring to dream and always up to the challenge of innovation other than just settling for what works easier.
They thought it would work, it didnt... the other teams already said last season they knew of that possibility but decided that it wouldnt work
@@gealingeman8643 you must be one of those that take joy in Mercedes' struggles I presume?
Please read carefully. I respect them for daring! And no! The other teams didn't think it possible because the sidepods are used mainly for cooling. Mercedes found an innovative way to cool components with less space. Yes the chassis brought other unforseen problems but even greater revelations for innovation.
Now before you start going off in my ear about what other teams thought, I really don't care. My comment was straight forward and simple. Just praising them for trying. Failure doesn't mean all is loss, it's an opportunity for growth so that's where am coming from. As their fan I'll continue to believe in them and supporting them. As it also motivates me to dare to try in my own life.
So go on with your beliefs with your own team, I'll be on my own with mine.
Another class video mate! Love this explanation, makes it much simpler to understand and it's really interesting how it's basically the opposite to Ferrari's (and others) massive sidepod pushing the wake so far outward that it doesn't end up in the air hitting the diffuser! This was a really interesting talk, helped me understand how the Merc Philosophy works better! Thanks man, keep up the epic work!
I hadn't really gotten into it at all and João made it so easy to understand!
@@brrrake Yeah he was really good!
My favourite video of yours, just so well made. Comprehensive, very technical but not impenetrable, perfect length. Love the evolution of the channel
I appreciate that a lot man. I feel like I'm learning so much at the same time, so I'm glad you have you along the journey as well!
Mercedes really innovate nothing. The zero pod concept is an idea older than my granpa. There's some reasons why any other team didn't used it. Ask to any aerodynamic expert what is the first part of a car that he will cover, to not produce massive amount of drag that will slow you down a lot. It will answer "wheels". The zero pod concept leave the rear wheels exposed to air flows, and when the air hit the tyres it becomes a wall there's nothing that affect you car air penetration as the air hitting the tyres.
Secondary issue, as the expert say in the video, yaw and cornering will make the car very unstable, cause without a surface where the air flow will be attached during the corner it will result in an unstable car in cornering, continuosly gaining and losing lateral downforce.
Side pods are there for a reason, cleaning the air flows in a way that the air will not hit your rear tyres and giving you that "parachute effect" and forcing the air flows to be "glued" on the side of the car in cornering.
That's why the Mercedes concept will never be a winning one, that's why no other team never used it (not even Newey was so naive to use it). That's why isn't an innovation but much more an involution of aerodynamic concept.
It would have worked in a covered wheels series, that is what we seen in the WEC LMH category, a cockpit cell with just covered wheels...but even there the side of the car have side pods to helping the air flow working properly.
You should apply for the aerodynamicist job!
@@brrrake lol
You really need to do a follow up now with the car reveal and cover the changes. The Zero side pods are now kind of 0.5 as there is interesting detail, scoops etc higher up down the sides and the engine cover is very interesting now. There are actually a lot of changes.
All this talk of choking and bouncing on valentine’s day… I should call her
The best (only?) intelligent analysis of the advantages and compromises involved in using slim side pods. The issue of yaw is particularly interesting, this indeed seems to be a place where Mercedes struggles, especially with getting the car into the right window.
Hands down by far the best explanation of whats gone wrong at Merc. But my only question is why did they continue wjth it after their performance in 2022 clearly showed it wasnt working. Did their win at Sãn Paulo in Brazil give false hopes and dreams it would work ? Now theyre blaming it on their engineering department of making their scaled windtunnel models wrong ? 😂 Go MAXattack!!! Im loving it but most if all seeing Mercs run of dominance is finally over and history !! And it was historic I'll say that ,and Lewis is absolutely amazing in a F1 car thats dominate, but I'm still thrilled their reign is over !!
So... it sounds like Mercedes have gambled on getting a super effective and fast car in a very narrow window. Not just with the sidepods but across the whole car. If they can get the car operating in the right window, like they have managed to do with the cars since 2014, they could be on to something good, since the slimline potential is great. But this could be a pipe dream, an impossible task, as reality is not the same as simulations. I think that's what I understood at least!
Well, past cars have been able to get into the into because it was much wider
I feel a bit sad for Alpine. This whole reveal season has been slowly building to finally getting an answer to the will they/won't they
question about Mercedes retaining the zeropods concept. We'll get that answer soon and then analysis (loosely using that term) of that is going is going to dominate the general F1 discussion until FP1 of the opening race.
Basically what I'm saying is that if Alpine want to attract attention then they'll have to get Ocon and Gasly to kiss at the car launch.
Or maybe have a fist fight.
Perhaps both?
Well their livery has already been leaked and it wouldnt have been talked about anyways...
@@ludvig7473 ?
I found what you were talking about, I hope it’s the old livery on the new car pre launch… but I doubt it.
@@KayJblue Considering that its a different shade of pink from last year and that there are design elements that werent there last year either, its most likely their real livery. Also, it makes no sense to do a filming day with a livery that isnt real
When people blamed the zero pods for Mercs problems last year I never bought into it. Scarbs even said the problems were NOT related to the zero pods. The problems stemmed from the porpoising , due to the floor, suspension, & ride height.
And the zero pods, as their floor is less supported and therefore bends more.
@Dries van Oosten i don't think it's that. It's more drag created because of rear tyre wake.
What's incredibly frustrating is why didn't Mercedes engineers understand the shortcomings of the aerodynamics in yaw? There are more corners on a track than straights. At the point of this video, they didn't know that by now Mercedes has switched to a conventional sidepod concept. But it's insane that they've held onto that zero pod concept for so long.
Obviously hats off to Red Bull for their excellent design but for the f1 audience watching RB one twos will get boring fast. I don't think even drive to survive can rescue this season.
Came to here from your last video of Bahrain testing summary, I believe you are currently the best f1 data analyst out there. Keep it up!
Absolute class video. So much good info.
Lewis posted on twitter of him in the simulator today that's a step in the rgt direction as they have found huge problems in the car and now asking how them problems got to the car in the first stage in model stages as well unreal Elliot and Allison have started all the way back at the very start of the car and finding problems there is not good news can they fix it i really dont no if any team can then its merc
So basically over reliance on wind tunnel testing because of reduced track testing can mask critical design issues in cars that are then too late and costly to rectify because of budget cap restrictions. Get it wrong like Mercedes and you can say their season is essentially over.
I wonder how successful Lockheed Martin would be at designing a F1 car
Thank god, some sensible conversation on F1, Sky are making my ears bleed.
They did have many overheating issues last season during the races. This new car is wider at the back, probably to have more room for cooling...
I genuinely can not see what the heck those side pods are supposed to be. You should have used a circle or outline to point them out.
As a Merc fan, this was so good I watched it twice.
I'm really glad you enjoyed it!!
the W13/14 is Mercedes' worst failure with or without the sidepods
Its after the first race of 2023 now. I think they will abandon this concept quickly.
They have to. Once a customer team outperforms the factory team like AM did, it's all about aero.
It looks like a Black Sharpie
Sharpie is more useful than what they have built 😔
Love seeing technical content like this keep up the great work.
Trying my best to add to that engagment for you :-)
Thanks so much!
Really good descriptions thanks.
Thank you for this video. As a fairly technical minded person it was great to get an explanation as to why Merc had and is still having so many issues. This is WAY better than just saying porpoising but rather why that was happening.
Cheers, Mark! I'm glad you enjoyed it!
Great video Blake. Thank you!! 👏
Mercedes' concept probably will work very well on oval circuits which F1 has not run in a very long time. It probably should be saved for a demo for future IndyCar oval concepts or to enter directly into the Indy 500 or a demo around Daytona International Speedway. With some modifications. However, no Mercedes driver wants to run the car on a track where one small mistake would leave it completely destroyed due to a 240mph crash into a barrier.
@Brrrakef1 Where is that link to "operating windows and design philosophys" you talk about in the end of the video? Cant find it
th-cam.com/video/fi93DnJKEoY/w-d-xo.html here ya go
Everything said here...just doesn't make any sense based on the performance we saw from the car over the season. Either you guys are straight out wrong in every single way, or something very important is missed.
Can you elaborate on this a bit? Maybe I can clarify a bit 👍
that guy explaining literally lost me since the beginning. also get a new mic jeez
Maybe this video wasn't for you. 😅
If it was me . I would incorporate the concept design of the car with the air inlet scoop towards the lower bottom area of each side panel of the car and then have them a wedge angle directing towards the rear and given it as a advantage by producing a extra downforce because of the angle wedge effect of the body 👍
great video
This is very addictive content, I'm doing my best to resist binge watching everything in one go, great work!
Cheers, Ben! Testing starts soon so get ready!
Amazing video! As a person who wants to go into engineering and F1, this is really mind-blowing. Thank you for these in-depth analyses. Also, for the in-depth videos, why not use the TH-cam membership program so that we can access the videos here?
Hey Selim, I am not too familiar with the TH-cam membership yet. That being said, on the buymeacoffee site, I offer a LOT of content which isn't videos - such as a lot of data analysis. I'd like to keep most of it in one place, and right now I think the best place to do that is, unfortunately, off site.
@@brrrake Oh alright I didn’t know that the content weren’t videos. That definitely makes sense. Good luck!
Very lucky to stumble on ur channel.
Love it.
Subscribed!!!
The thing your doing with your hands is freaking me out.
My girlfriend says the same thing.
refreshing to see a completely serious video from you for a change lol. love the explanation and im seriously considering subscribing to the buy me a coffee thing
There's quite a few things on there which don't require a subscription so you can get a feel for what's on there! There will be some more free content thru testing
All of my videos are serious 😂😂😂
@@brrrake haha I was only half joking. im a listener of your podcast and that was my point of reference in my original comment
Do you see any other teams potentially using this design?
I don't think so. Mercedes have shown it takes a long enough time to get right... too risky for such a short development cycle (2022-2025)
I don’t understand anything your friend said but this is a good video
Subscribed❤️❤️
Superb, informative and interesting content, for all genuine F1 fans - thanks!
Enjoyed that. Very informative video.
What this video highlights make sense, but why was Mercedes so fast at circuits where corners were more prevalent like Spain and Hungary
The car appears to be relatively inefficient down to aero drag and what appears to be an engine deficit with the fuel introduced in 2022. As the downforce level of the circuit increases (based on the arrangement of straights and corners) a less efficient car will lose less.. basically at the high downforce circuits they were much closer to the front
TLDR: Yes but there's simply no time and resources left to completely change it, only make it less crap. Sure, they can develop it but everyone else is developing as well.
Not a very good TLDR.
The perfect F1 channel to add to my daily rotation! Thank you for the great content.
How can you be so handsome AND so smart???? INB4 Brrrake F1 takeover of the F1 content creation world.
Oh behave
That wing on the body is also there because that’s the side crash structure, a requirement by the FIA.
That is correct
Loved it.
Subscribed instantly.
Look forward to more insights.
Best wishes.
Thanks man!
Great analysis… too much drama channels about f1 and hardly any channels with substance..glad i found this channel
I struggle to find very much good F1 technical content - most of it is 10 minutes of nonsense and then 30 seconds of something copied from a news article :( I'm glad you found the channel!
Without side pods porposing is still there lesson learned in 2022 still mercedes is hard headed in this w14.
The lack of sidepods didn't create porpoising or make it worse.
Mate i just randomly found your channel its excellent look forward to more vids
Welcome, David! Thanks so much
ADRIAN NEWEY LEAVING REDBULL
Great video. Subbed
Welcome!
I usually dont comment on youtube videos but my god your content is so good!Keep it coming!
I appreciate it - thank you for the kind words!
Amazing and very informative content! Great work 🤙Love the insights of an expert in the industry. Hope to see more videos like this in the future.
If you will be making with Joao more videos, he need to take care of echo in his room. Its great information, but quality is lacking and it requaires to focus hard when he is speaking. Great vid as always, thanks :D
It's not ideal but not everyone is a full time content creator nerd 😂 thanks for the feedback though!
Yea, all im saying is to do sth janky, like maybe change a room or put some blankets on chairs/hangers off-screen during a call.
Great work my man!
It really is bullshit that a sport which puts tech innovation at the forefront of it's marketing tends to ban every useful innovation Mercedes comes up with simply because other teams can't keep up.
Which things are getting banned?
The more limitations there are, the more incentive there is for innovation. How do you think we arrived at the aero era or smaller engine that make more power than V10s or V12s?
Rule changes have always been part of the sport.
This is the video you mentioned on stream! Dope video man! Love the content you put out 💯
Appreciate it!! Thank you!
Can’t wait to tag along for winter testing. LETS GO BLAKE
Can't wait! Thanks, Dennis!
How likely is it in your opinion that other teams will adopt merc's concept, Williams for example.
If we haven't seen another team do it this year, the likelihood is very low for the next few years
Still the wrong T-Shirt...
I fixed it in my shorts for today and tomorrow...! hahah
Holy cow spit it out
This isn't a one word answer. 🤣
Great video!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Good video, but the clickbait title is never actually addressed.
You'll have to watch the video again. If they keep it. That's explained. If they ditch it, that is also explained 👍
@@brrrake The title suggests that there's conclusive evidence that Merc will keep the zero-pod design, which is not presented in the video. If your goal was to present evidence for both possible eventualities, a less misleading title might be, "Will Mercedes F1 ditch their RADICAL design?"
@@xdoctorblindx based on what I've seen they have kept the same design philosophy.
Welcome to TH-cam. Where most people have an outrageous title and talk for 20 minutes about nothing. I will have a SOMEWHAT outrageous title and give you 15 minutes of nothing but interesting discussion! I hate to do it, but it's important, unfortuantely. "selling the click" troubles me massively as an engineer and typically objective person. I hope you understand 🤝
@@brrrake I totally understand, and you're right that your title turned out to be quite prescient!
@@brrrake I've subscribed, by the way. Hopefully, your channel gets the traction it deserves and the click-worthy titles will become less necessary. All the best!