Yup, loved the interview with then ferrari team manager steph dom who tried to justify Alonso not holding the wheel at all while going 200 mph down a straight XD
Yeah I don’t think Ron was always a big problem at Mclaren. He only get into trouble when he had all star driver lineups and couldn’t/wouldn’t control them or favoured one over the other/broke promises to them. The whole slide that Mclaren were under in the mid to late 2000s was partially down to Whitmarsh not adapting well to the new regs, Mclaren facilities becoming outdated and the team rudder less under Jenson Button once LH wanted out. Operationally the team stagnated as well. Ron can only do so much. At Red Bull there’s a lot of key figures doing their bit in the team. Same at Mercedes Benz AMG Petronas. Ron Dennis always seemed to be the only key man at Mclaren.
@@kwl189 whitlessmarsh, as head of fota, was making decisions that were actively against McLarens interests, like banning kers for 2010 when they clearly had the best system. He was clueless
@@byanymeansnecessary9329 yeah I didn’t like the KERS system that much in terms a reading perspective but it did provide innovation and exploration in terms of energy recovery so whilst I don’t think it added to the racing (Vettel would dick about and start using KERS not during acceleration out of slow corners but on the straights in the upper gears), it certainly is something that would be useful on modern cars given the energy under braking to be explored.
4:00 for me personally I would have had an easier time understanding if you just used one or two pictures or at least used pictures of similar perspective. It’s hard for my brain to attach the words of Scarbs to the images when they are constantly changing. Anyways thank you for making the video!
A step-by-step guide to getting innovations banned: 1) Another team makes an innovative thing to their car 2) Your car isn't able to have that thing 3) They had been developing their thing long time 4) Rush your version 5) Make it unsafe 6) Get it banned
I still sometimes drive my road car, with the back of my hand pressed against the door, thinking I'm activating the F duct for more speed lol. It's ingrained into me from watching back in the day...
Ah yes, the F-Duct. My first season of Formula 1 was 2010, so this was my first time experiencing a piece of controversial aero on a car be unveiled. Very nostalgic stuff for me
Nah it's not even a proper livery. It's just silver gray with a logo. You don't go out pointing out every silver Honda Civic having McLaren livery or red Astra having Ferrari livery.
F-Duct is nothing to do with F in vodafone. Its F=fluidic. The device that causes the switch is called a fluidic switch. We developed this system the previous season but chose not to race it as the car wasn't competitive. Originally it was foot activated with a nose inlet and switched to elbow /arm operated during testing. The reason we were able to make it work when others struggled as this was the first season that Full scale testing in a tunnel. So nobody else could make it work as easily as we could. We had tested it the previous season in the full scale tunnel at wind shear in the US. Most impressive was Sauber who turned up with their own version for the first race. Was thought up by our own Back to the future Doc Brown.
If I’m not mistaken, wasn’t McLarens hole placed abive the drivers left knee so it wouldn’t effect them on the straights because their left leg was free to lift up and cover the hole due to not having to use the brakes?
I actually have a design for a dirt track car that has variable-geometry wings that are activated by the pitch of the steering yoke. The idea is that on a straight you could max out your speed, but on a turn you would generate downforce. Looking to build it eventually but I only have the budget for engine, chassis, and skin rn. I think I'll have the means for hydraulic controls and drivetrain soon enough though.
The F-duct is the father of the DRS. The F-duct of the Mercedes was activated using the left elbow to cover the opening. Safe setup. The copies from the other teams required the driver to use his hand for the same purpose. UNsafe setup.
I’m still surprised that teams don’t continue with the approach Lotus (and subsequently other teams) were trying in 2013 - ie the “device”. Seemingly it was hard to get the fluidic switch tuned just right, so everyone gave up trying, but I’m surprised it’s totally impossible. That seems like it would be a benefit, especially in the race where you don’t have drs unless overtaking, and was legal given it used inlets on the engine cover plus didn’t require the driver to do anything.
McLaren used their knee pads to cover the duct, when other teams copied they placed it near the wheels and non McLaren drivers were seen going through corners 1 handed
What a dangerous device. “Just stop keeping both hands on the wheel and don’t focus on actual driving, it’s faster” is a questionable direction to move in as an engineering org
I was switching channels and the Formula 2 was on , and I’ve been wondering for a while, do they use the same pit garages, as the formula one , ones, ?
It depends. The paddock they use to set up is normally separate, but they will utilise the F1 pits during races to keep things normal with pits on the start/finish straight. At Silverstone F2 is based in the national pits.
I thought it was knee for McLaren as well. Most natural way to integrate it into the driving style as you know where the leg will be on braking Vs accelerating phases. Happy to be proven wrong of course.
@@darren8453 That's what I thought too. I suppose there isn't enough room in the cockpit to make sure the driver doesn't accidentally block the duct in a corner. They don't brake through the whole corner.
I thought Mclaren operated by the drivers knee too, and then it got banned on safety grounds because other teams (I mainly remember analysts pointing it out on Alonso's Ferrari**) designed it so the driver took one hand off the steering wheel to operate the duct, which was considered dangerous incase they had to quickly manoeuver to avoid an accident or something one handed**. But the technical implications of standardisation across teams and regulating/policing from the FIA makes sense. I was much younger then and didn't know all the ins and outs of the BTS technicalities and regulations. **(Note: remember to finish watching the whole video before commenting!!)
A lot of people argue about the FIA banning cool innovations right after they're introduced but honestly if they didn't, every team would end up with their own versions and the cars would continuously get more and more expensive and complicated. They wouldn't be cool innovations that grant an advantage to a clever team anymore, they would be required hardware that raises the cost for everyone. Personally I like the "Use it for one year, but it's banned next year" approach. It lets innovative teams benefit from their innovations while the other teams struggle to catch up, but once the other teams HAVE caught up, it levels the playing field again.
@Mesder13 you mean like they do now? Once a technology is banned, another fills the void. Such is the nature of f1 and the competition ambitions of it's teams.
They shot themselves in the foot with "we ban things because then it will get expensive and complicated" when they introduced the current engines in 2014, which are the most expensive and complicated engines in the history of F1 hence why only one engine manufacturer came into the sport since then and has also left.
Engineering is part of the sport as well. Which is why people love the top classes. If you want fair motorsport with equal cars watch F2, F3 down the rows to carting. Many classes and dozens of hours of sport are available.
@@apophisRO So you want cheap engines an really expensive aerodynamics? How does that make it any better? The point is that the F duct was a trick device. In the end everyone would have integrated it into their design so nobody would get an advantage and everyone would have paid more. They let it run it's course and banned it before it became an unjustifiable cost.
Banning "moveable aerodynamic devices" is over-broad. It means the FIA can ban anything in the atmosphere of the earth, with no questions. They banned renaults mass damper, completely inside the bodywork years ago as an "aerodynamic device". They want a spec series, and its annoying.
This is the kind of innovation that makes sense to keep for a year and then ban. It's not an elegant design in itself, it's elegance is how it subverts the rules about moving parts. With no rules you would just use a moving part, instead of forcing a driver to manually cover a hole whilst driving. Reward McLaren for a year, and then ban it next year.
Exactly like DAS. Nothing wrong with it so there is no justification to ban it immediately. Developing it is a cost you don't want all teams burdened with, so ban it for the following season.
So what’s the name of the guy who had the eureka moment at mclaren? I’ve seen a few videos about this but I’ve never heard anything about the guy who first thought of it. Yeah it’s a team effort but the seed grew out of someone’s brain.
Button in Monza was down in straight line speed. He knew he cant ovartake anyone, in case if he lose a position. Cars so far back at the start of the main straight was in his diffusor at the end of it, eventually lost out to Alonso that way. But probably Alonso was faster on the weekend anyway.
shoutout to the "often replayed" feature on youtube showing me when the placement ends lol. dont get me wrong i dont begrudge you but im just not interested in the products
Cost mostly. It was a trick device that would have been identical in every car in next year's designs as engineers would have time to integrate it properly. Allowing it would have meant complexity into the rules to keep it safe. So banning it and replacing it with a clear and intentional DRS device was just safer and cheaper for everyone with the exact same end result.
if the w duct let more air in the cockpit, I dont really see a negative where drivers would get hot as the temperature there gets up to 50 degrees celsius
I feel like McLaren need to go back to this kind of racing they seemed to have success when they bent the rules they seem to reserved these days and may be the reason for their lack of performance need to push the rules to the limit
A additional effect I think wasn’t brought up, would have been neutralizing the duct at the end of a straight, would have restored the drag and rear downforce, aiding braking.
You're not looking at the big picture here. The F duct was a trick device that eventually everyone would have integrated into their design. Next year nobody would have had an advantage and everyone would have paid more. They let it run it's course and banned it before it became an unjustifiable cost.
‘It was eventually banned’ FFS This is why F1 sucks, why can’t they perhaps make a racing league with no rules whatsoever, best and fastest car and driver WINS
They're going to use biofuels or synthetic fuels. If anything synthetic fuels will improve performance because it is free of the impurities in RON 95 or 97 petrol.
I never knew the reason the F-duct was banned was safety. I thought it was banned due to the introduction of DRS
banned for safety, influenced the drs
Yup, loved the interview with then ferrari team manager steph dom who tried to justify Alonso not holding the wheel at all while going 200 mph down a straight XD
I wish they would have banned the sharkfin on grounds that it made the cars look incredibly ugly.
@@AndyFromBeaverton am i the only person who liked it? i think they were decent
It was mostly banned because the "F" in F-duct was not named for being next to the letter f in vodafone. 😜
I knew all of this except I had never realised they called it F duct cos it was next to F of Vodafone. Made me laugh though 😆
Yeah m8 , i thougt it was " F " shaped inside the car ,,good idea though
@@andrewdillon7837 That’s how it was explained for the reasoning behind the name tbh.
Same, always thought someone thoight it looked like an F xD
Hope you'll cover the blown diffuser one day, an explainer video like this would be really helpful.
Back in the days when McLaren innovated, competed and had an effective boss. Love him or hate him Ron got things done.
Eventhough it was withmash, Ron was behind the curtains pulling strings.
Yeah I don’t think Ron was always a big problem at Mclaren. He only get into trouble when he had all star driver lineups and couldn’t/wouldn’t control them or favoured one over the other/broke promises to them. The whole slide that Mclaren were under in the mid to late 2000s was partially down to Whitmarsh not adapting well to the new regs, Mclaren facilities becoming outdated and the team rudder less under Jenson Button once LH wanted out. Operationally the team stagnated as well. Ron can only do so much. At Red Bull there’s a lot of key figures doing their bit in the team. Same at Mercedes Benz AMG Petronas. Ron Dennis always seemed to be the only key man at Mclaren.
@@kwl189 whitlessmarsh, as head of fota, was making decisions that were actively against McLarens interests, like banning kers for 2010 when they clearly had the best system. He was clueless
@@byanymeansnecessary9329 yeah I didn’t like the KERS system that much in terms a reading perspective but it did provide innovation and exploration in terms of energy recovery so whilst I don’t think it added to the racing (Vettel would dick about and start using KERS not during acceleration out of slow corners but on the straights in the upper gears), it certainly is something that would be useful on modern cars given the energy under braking to be explored.
4:00 for me personally I would have had an easier time understanding if you just used one or two pictures or at least used pictures of similar perspective. It’s hard for my brain to attach the words of Scarbs to the images when they are constantly changing. Anyways thank you for making the video!
That was 10 years ago? Wow, I'm getting old
A step-by-step guide to getting innovations banned:
1) Another team makes an innovative thing to their car
2) Your car isn't able to have that thing
3) They had been developing their thing long time
4) Rush your version
5) Make it unsafe
6) Get it banned
I still sometimes drive my road car, with the back of my hand pressed against the door, thinking I'm activating the F duct for more speed lol.
It's ingrained into me from watching back in the day...
Ah yes, the F-Duct. My first season of Formula 1 was 2010, so this was my first time experiencing a piece of controversial aero on a car be unveiled. Very nostalgic stuff for me
my first (although i had a break from 11 to 18) season was 2009
yeah
the guy in the circle say big brain things i like him
That Vodafone livery is GOATed 🔥
neh i preffer ferrari marlboro
One of my favourite f1 liveries
Never understood the grammar behind ‘greatest of all time’ed’
Nah it's not even a proper livery. It's just silver gray with a logo. You don't go out pointing out every silver Honda Civic having McLaren livery or red Astra having Ferrari livery.
I saw some vids about this, but this is the first really clear one.
F-Duct is nothing to do with F in vodafone. Its F=fluidic. The device that causes the switch is called a fluidic switch. We developed this system the previous season but chose not to race it as the car wasn't competitive. Originally it was foot activated with a nose inlet and switched to elbow /arm operated during testing. The reason we were able to make it work when others struggled as this was the first season that Full scale testing in a tunnel. So nobody else could make it work as easily as we could. We had tested it the previous season in the full scale tunnel at wind shear in the US. Most impressive was Sauber who turned up with their own version for the first race. Was thought up by our own Back to the future Doc Brown.
right 😆
I can't believe the F-Duct was 13 years ago, I remember that whole season so well.
That is genius. The lightbulb that must have come on when that popped into someone's head.
My favourite F1 car ever made, this was such a great era of F1 with Lewis and Jenson both driving this McLaren. 🥰
pity the reliability of the car was so shit that year. Mclaren were definitely in the title fight but shot themselves in the foor
If I’m not mistaken, wasn’t McLarens hole placed abive the drivers left knee so it wouldn’t effect them on the straights because their left leg was free to lift up and cover the hole due to not having to use the brakes?
there were a few variations but definitely this was one of them
Then the FiA said "F the duct".
I actually have a design for a dirt track car that has variable-geometry wings that are activated by the pitch of the steering yoke. The idea is that on a straight you could max out your speed, but on a turn you would generate downforce. Looking to build it eventually but I only have the budget for engine, chassis, and skin rn. I think I'll have the means for hydraulic controls and drivetrain soon enough though.
The F-duct is the father of the DRS.
The F-duct of the Mercedes was activated using the left elbow to cover the opening. Safe setup.
The copies from the other teams required the driver to use his hand for the same purpose. UNsafe setup.
I’m still surprised that teams don’t continue with the approach Lotus (and subsequently other teams) were trying in 2013 - ie the “device”. Seemingly it was hard to get the fluidic switch tuned just right, so everyone gave up trying, but I’m surprised it’s totally impossible. That seems like it would be a benefit, especially in the race where you don’t have drs unless overtaking, and was legal given it used inlets on the engine cover plus didn’t require the driver to do anything.
What device did lotus use?
McLaren used their knee pads to cover the duct, when other teams copied they placed it near the wheels and non McLaren drivers were seen going through corners 1 handed
that guy explaining the technical stuff in alot of these videos is pushing them over the top! Great add, get better graphics for him =)
Can you make a video about the D-DRS that (mercedes used in 2012 i think) as well?
It's still funny how lewis managed to grow his hair back from 2010 as seen @1:13 😂
He was compelled to do so, because Dennis and Whitmarsh perceived long hair to be messy. That's why Alonso didn't have long hair for most of 2007.
This is the same guy who threw dirt at his competitor when he lost.
What
@@harry4454 He is talking about the video in their second channel.
What a dangerous device. “Just stop keeping both hands on the wheel and don’t focus on actual driving, it’s faster” is a questionable direction to move in as an engineering org
What u think they did when they had to manually change gears????
@@John-86 which is why they stopped!
@@tpayne3047 no they stopped because transmission technology improved and the cars are way faster with paddle shifters.
I want McLaren to build a car using all of their genius ideas
This explains the air flow very well ok but why the car was going faster on the straights ?
Can you explain in a video about new regulations and looks for the next year car please.
I was switching channels and the Formula 2 was on , and I’ve been wondering for a while, do they use the same pit garages, as the formula one , ones, ?
It depends. The paddock they use to set up is normally separate, but they will utilise the F1 pits during races to keep things normal with pits on the start/finish straight.
At Silverstone F2 is based in the national pits.
@@JohnSmithShields ahh, cheers 🙂
they could have made a rule that made it so both hands much be able to be on the wheel while the Fduct is covered
Just a small correction, McLaren has their drivers use their legs. The other teams, for eg Ferrari used their hands
They need something big or small NOW to get any speed!Used to pull for them but Z.Brown is a bit over matched. Seems a bit greasy as well.....
I was under the impression that the Mclaren f duct was operated by the drivers knee not their hands or elbow.
I thought it was knee for McLaren as well. Most natural way to integrate it into the driving style as you know where the leg will be on braking Vs accelerating phases. Happy to be proven wrong of course.
@@darren8453 That's what I thought too. I suppose there isn't enough room in the cockpit to make sure the driver doesn't accidentally block the duct in a corner. They don't brake through the whole corner.
I thought Mclaren operated by the drivers knee too, and then it got banned on safety grounds because other teams (I mainly remember analysts pointing it out on Alonso's Ferrari**) designed it so the driver took one hand off the steering wheel to operate the duct, which was considered dangerous incase they had to quickly manoeuver to avoid an accident or something one handed**. But the technical implications of standardisation across teams and regulating/policing from the FIA makes sense. I was much younger then and didn't know all the ins and outs of the BTS technicalities and regulations.
**(Note: remember to finish watching the whole video before commenting!!)
They gained without breaking the non existent cost cap from the year no one cared about? And without Helmut Marko's help???What is this world
so kinda like the rb18 at spa.
A lot of people argue about the FIA banning cool innovations right after they're introduced but honestly if they didn't, every team would end up with their own versions and the cars would continuously get more and more expensive and complicated. They wouldn't be cool innovations that grant an advantage to a clever team anymore, they would be required hardware that raises the cost for everyone.
Personally I like the "Use it for one year, but it's banned next year" approach. It lets innovative teams benefit from their innovations while the other teams struggle to catch up, but once the other teams HAVE caught up, it levels the playing field again.
@Mesder13 you mean like they do now? Once a technology is banned, another fills the void. Such is the nature of f1 and the competition ambitions of it's teams.
They shot themselves in the foot with "we ban things because then it will get expensive and complicated" when they introduced the current engines in 2014, which are the most expensive and complicated engines in the history of F1 hence why only one engine manufacturer came into the sport since then and has also left.
I wonder if any team has used a fake device to hide a genuine innovation?
Engineering is part of the sport as well. Which is why people love the top classes. If you want fair motorsport with equal cars watch F2, F3 down the rows to carting. Many classes and dozens of hours of sport are available.
@@apophisRO So you want cheap engines an really expensive aerodynamics? How does that make it any better? The point is that the F duct was a trick device. In the end everyone would have integrated it into their design so nobody would get an advantage and everyone would have paid more. They let it run it's course and banned it before it became an unjustifiable cost.
Banning "moveable aerodynamic devices" is over-broad. It means the FIA can ban anything in the atmosphere of the earth, with no questions. They banned renaults mass damper, completely inside the bodywork years ago as an "aerodynamic device".
They want a spec series, and its annoying.
Is it the guy who throws mud into opponent's car))
Yes
This is the kind of innovation that makes sense to keep for a year and then ban. It's not an elegant design in itself, it's elegance is how it subverts the rules about moving parts. With no rules you would just use a moving part, instead of forcing a driver to manually cover a hole whilst driving.
Reward McLaren for a year, and then ban it next year.
Exactly like DAS. Nothing wrong with it so there is no justification to ban it immediately. Developing it is a cost you don't want all teams burdened with, so ban it for the following season.
So what’s the name of the guy who had the eureka moment at mclaren? I’ve seen a few videos about this but I’ve never heard anything about the guy who first thought of it. Yeah it’s a team effort but the seed grew out of someone’s brain.
2:04 hang on... what's that thing on the car?
Let me get a cup a coffee this seems interesting.
and still ppl say Lambos ALA system is fake lol. its basically the same as this
Didn't the McLaren one work with the driver's knee?
wait is this the guy from driven media?
Button in Monza was down in straight line speed. He knew he cant ovartake anyone, in case if he lose a position. Cars so far back at the start of the main straight was in his diffusor at the end of it, eventually lost out to Alonso that way. But probably Alonso was faster on the weekend anyway.
The hand hole
It must be a REALLY slow news day....
Someone needs to count how many times they say duct
Now do Merc’s Double DRS
You are a very good youtuber. ❤
yeah I dont think things that require the driver to take their hands off the wheel should be allowed
shoutout to the "often replayed" feature on youtube showing me when the placement ends lol. dont get me wrong i dont begrudge you but im just not interested in the products
use the like button if you think mclaren should get their chrome livery back
Silver gray is not a livery. It's just a colour with a logo. You don't go out pointing every silver Honda Civic having McLaren livery.
@@AnttiBrax we just prefer the older livery...
So it was banned because most teams couldn't make an elegant and safe solution to cover the hole. Shame.
No. Also cost.
Cost mostly. It was a trick device that would have been identical in every car in next year's designs as engineers would have time to integrate it properly. Allowing it would have meant complexity into the rules to keep it safe. So banning it and replacing it with a clear and intentional DRS device was just safer and cheaper for everyone with the exact same end result.
... I always thought it meant flow duct... i feel dumb
And who is the genius "responsible" for this? Does somebody knows?
Genius .. though
Wish they would get rid of DRS
Someones run outta content. You already done this video champ.
Imagine if there is a car without any rules 😳
When McLaren understood aerodynamics and built very good and fast cars........
Now, looks like a lost team
Yeah... those were the days...
🤭Martin Whitmarsh critizizing red bull for cheating in 2011 !
if the w duct let more air in the cockpit, I dont really see a negative where drivers would get hot as the temperature there gets up to 50 degrees celsius
Quad lock need to make a case for all phones. 80% of phones don't fit the case available.
The transition to the adversitment is way too abrupt O_o
I feel like McLaren need to go back to this kind of racing they seemed to have success when they bent the rules they seem to reserved these days and may be the reason for their lack of performance need to push the rules to the limit
Scotty-boy Mansell fans, get it right! 🙂
You said mcl but showed a merc
F1 the place that bans such good innovations 🤦♂️
Thanks Scabs
You've already covered this....
The acoustics in that room are horrible to hear that guy talking !
Imagine of Subaru joins F1, they will have an F-Duct to mimic their nose scoop intercooler on their cars
Press F to go faster 😏
Now talk about Mercedes double Drs system that they used to win China
A additional effect I think wasn’t brought up, would have been neutralizing the duct at the end of a straight, would have restored the drag and rear downforce, aiding braking.
Disappointed that nobody has referred to the “W” duct was not referred to as a wubba duct
F1 has become pretty much pointless, banning absolutely everything. Compared to Le mans prototypes, F1 feels like an over-funded spec series.
You're not looking at the big picture here. The F duct was a trick device that eventually everyone would have integrated into their design. Next year nobody would have had an advantage and everyone would have paid more. They let it run it's course and banned it before it became an unjustifiable cost.
If was baned i belive is was s cheating elememt like all mercedes ilegal "inovation"
LOL XD I HAVEEBE SUBRFDRIBEDS ALREADY SO I CANT SHYBCRIBE AGAIN RACE MAN WHY ASK THANK
‘It was eventually banned’ FFS
This is why F1 sucks, why can’t they perhaps make a racing league with no rules whatsoever, best and fastest car and driver WINS
No moveable areo dynamic devices drs should be banned lol
Yooooo
yay im early
Are you going to drop Established titles from your sponsors? @Driver61
When Lewis and Vettel get their wish and F1 bans petrol, F1 will suck.
They're going to use biofuels or synthetic fuels. If anything synthetic fuels will improve performance because it is free of the impurities in RON 95 or 97 petrol.