5 Tips for Better Center Channel Performance & Vocal Clarity
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ค. 2020
- This is a summary of our last livestream with Matthew Poes on the topic of speech intelligibility relating to movies and home theater. In this short segment, we discuss ways on improving vocal clarity to better be able to hear the actors speaking in movies.
The following 5 tips are discussed in detail:
Tip #1: Lower the Noise Floor of Your Room
Tip #2: Choose Good Speakers
Tip #3 Main LCR speakers should be line of sight to listeners.
Tip #4 Control Mid & Late Reflections with absorption.
Tip #5: Choose Good Source Material
For the full Livestream on this topic, visit:
• Understanding & Improv...
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#movies #vocals #hometheater - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Love your Neil Peart shirt!! The master will always be with us!
Glad to see the more summarized form of what was a much longer discussion.
Thanks for great quick to the point tips
I’ve been having issues with center since I setup my new satellite speakers..we have to keep turning it up and down on different scenes(what a pain in the ass). But you guys are absolutely right.some movies just sound terrible the way there setup..we were just watching lord of the rings(again lol) and I had to turn up/ down Constantly. Then other programs sound great! In my personal opinion,me/you sound never have to raise the channel up higher than the rest. Perhaps I little,but not even time we watch a different movie or so..if you guys have any added advice I’m all ears..great job as always guys..thanks,joe. Go buc’s..
Loved the rapid fire information at the beginning.
My denon receiver does have a dialog adjustment.I bumped it up to +3db per your suggestion. It does seem to help
Excellent review
@audioholics Thanks for your efforts.
Great video! As a doctor of audiology I tell my patients the majority of information in speech is between 1-4 kHz. There is even a soundbar (yuck!) marketed to hard of hearing people to improve speech understanding with on screen dialogue.
And interestingly enough, the BBC did a study to see if this helps vs a pair of bookshelf speakers. They found that TV sound could be improved by these soundbars, but the difference was actually small. The bookshelf made a much bigger difference for a similar total cost.
I am currently using an 8-in unboxed subwoofer hanging on a string above my TV which means it's cocked at a slight angle towards the ceiling. Using the old dynaco 3-channel stereo wiring I also have two 3-in paper drivers, also unboxed for the left and right speakers. The 8-in center channel in conjunction with the two satellite speakers using the dynaco wiring which is quite interesting sounds great. I've also tried using a variable potentiometer on the center speaker to bring out the dynamic range of the system. All in all it's one of the nicer audio systems I've ever made and with the amp was under $50 for everything 🤣
great video guys
Nice video, Gene!
Wondering...what software are you using for these webinar videos (especially how are you bringing the comments up...is that in post?)??
Super presentation
More tips lots of tips more tips always helps
Hey Gene can you show us that gain on a cabinet or shelf and what can be used to measure it or show the difference
Great job guys. Thanks for this. One thing. The things you suggest that could lead to intelligibility issues should be equally a problem across Bluray, Netflix, cable TV and music. Correct? I have an awesome HT system with lots of good room treatment. But I find voices are mixed way too low compared to the rest of the sound when watching a movie on Blueray (or DVD). This is sometimes an issue with Netflix, but less often. it is never a problem with music or cable TV. With Bluray, I have to constantly turn up the volume during dialog-heavy parts, but then I am blown away during the next action scene with loudness. So annoying. To me, the problem is the movie studio mixing, not my HT or room. Do they not realize this is a problem? I find that turning up my centre channel helps a bit, but does not fix the problem.
Yeah I've gotta agree with this , there's way more shitty mixing than anything else, way to loud on SFX and too low on the dialogue, they seem to think that explosions and shit makes the movie rather than the whole experience!
@@Excalabur50 Same situation. anything I watch on disney + or netflix dialogue sounds fine but I just watched lord of the rings on 4k blu ray the dialogue was too low compared to all the other speakers. So raising the volume for a good dialogue level would make the full system way too loud during music or action scenes
If I use an identical tower speaker as I use for my Left and Right speakers for my Center speaker, will it work good under a TV instead of behind a transparent screen? Of will it make the dialogue and action seem off from the TV screen? Would it even be that noticeable audibly? I know having a transplant projector screen with a vertical center behind it is ideal, but it’s not always possible. I can accommodate a small tower or bookshelf that is identical my LR Towers, but I’m just wondering if the sound will audibly blend well with the TV screen as far as vertical dispersion is concerned. All my towers have 1” VC Dome Tweeters. Thanks.
I’m amazed to watch these “home theater tours” and see how people just put speakers wherever they can. If you tell them it will sound better if you do X,Y, or Z. They tell you to piss off. Shocking to me
I always say "if you are into this check out these videos." Then they either bite or don't, I just don't worry past that.
What would happen if I used a pair of klipsch r-34c as left and right channels for my surround system thanks
I have one scene in the movie The final Destination where the center has a brief cutout. Is it better to turn the center back a db or so or just decrease volume a little on that movie.
I just ordered the Definitely technology Cs9080 Center Speaker, That Center Speaker is know for its 8" built in subwoofer, But I already have 2 Svs Subwoofers, Should I run the CS 9080 Center Speaker Small or Large to take advantage of the Subwoofer?
happy to say my Onkyo TX-NR6100 has DTS: Virtual X - and it noticeably spreads the centre channel speech from centre only to LCR and increases the intelligibility enough that its my daily driver for all television/streaming we do in the family room.
Admittedly, its better, but still not "fixed" in my opinion. I still feel like I have to increase the centre channel volume, and I have a decent Paradigm CC-290 v.6 wtmw
With enough toe-in and the right speakers, and for a single row of three seats, wouldn't it be better with a phantom image than to place a center speaker for example both too low and too far back on a shelf, perhaps partially obstructed also? Do you think the Kali LP-6's or LP-8's would be able to pull that off? Screen is 117" (16:9) and viewing distance is 15.85 feet.
Whoa, look who's stepping up their production value...really digging the intro. Can you do a video on sound isolation for rooms that are already constructed. Unfortunately, the room where my dedicated theater sits is right next to my the utility closet the houses my HVAC system, and every time it kicks on I have to increase the volume, then when it shuts off, my system is blowing me out the room.
tare down the wall and install noise dampening insullation..Home Depot.. thats if your handy
We can do something, but at the end of the day, the cost of adding sound isolation to existing walls is on par or greater than ripping down the walls and doing it right. One gives you about 6-12dB of extra isolation, the other gives you 20+ dB of isolation.
Hi Gene. Thanks for this video. What about driver size? Does going from an 4” MTM to a 5.25” MTM make a noticeable difference?
Probably not. That just improves dynamic range and bass.
I just bought AV receiver Marantz 6014. I have a 7.2 set up Kef reference 3, Fronts.. center is kef 3way , surround rear is also Kef dipoles, just recently added for surround canton AR 500 Atmos , Subwoofer is also Kef kube 300watt... I use the speaker calibration mic on a tripod.... This complete set up is in my living room 14'x 22.. aside from looking great, the sound is good.. I want great.. Is the calibration mics spot on? .. Im coming from a Harmon Kardon 645..that has a 7.2 config.. but no hdmi..the receiver is at least 20yrs old.. I was able to dial in each speaker independently if I was not happy with the mic calibration....Oh my second sub is a sonance DL10 dual level not working circuit board and or amplifer/transformer damaged..Question is should I rely on the Mic calibration?? .. on some movies the sound is spectacular
I mount my center channel speaker on top of the LCD TV because i could not put it under the tv since it covered the bottom of screen. I purposely tilted the speaker down a few degrees so it fires directly towards me. I feel it sounds better than keeping it under the screen. have anyone tried that?
What about the Dialogue enhancer feature on Marantz processors.
It used to be in the audio section of set up. My new 8805A has moved it to the options button.
You could just turn it on when it was in the audio menu now it’s a low/mid/high setting on the 8805A.
I found it helped a lot with dialogue when you just turned it on. I don’t find it helps much with the new set up in the options menu.
I am very happy with my RC64 II
There are some shows and movies with actors that mumble even through my headphones,especially with some of the loud music playing when they are talking.
*cough* Interstellar *cough*
@@lewisd5004
Lol
Great topic guys. Much appreciated. I was wondering if it would it make any difference if the amp powering the center speaker ( mono or class D) is not the same as those powering the front L and R ( class AB) or if it would be best to have the LCR be powered by the same amp ( eg. class AB 3 or 5 o7 7 channel or similar monos).
I would have the same amp or at least the same class and quality of amp to power the LCR speakers. Surrounds too ideally, but not as important.
Probably not, but in theory, if the center channel amp is very poor quality, it could impact speech. Especially if it was very noisy. Class D amps can range from as good as it gets to as bad as it gets, so it all depends.
@@PoesAcoustics Thanks, I thought so as well. Appreciate the response. Luv the work you guys do.👍👍✌
Matt, can't wait to see the bass videos! Could you indeed cover the multi-sub aspect and what Audyssey is doing? What is not well covered is sub alignment (if Audyssey does it well):
1. Impulse alignment vs. a positive summation alignment method
2. How one can optimize dual subwoofers if no miniDSP
3. What happens if we manipulate the distances in the AVR as a group vs individually
4. What happens if we change the distances in the MultEQ app -- does it then recalculate phase and also the EQ filters upon uploading to AVR
5. Subs alignment to mains - does Audyssey do it properly? If not, what should we do using REW?
6. MultEQ app target curves
Time to grab my popcorn :)
Great video! Room acoustics are such an important thing. I‘m gonna put 2.000€ into room treatment and stick to my X1600H before I‘m gonna buy a Marantz SR7015 or SR8015.
I am happy with my Klipsch RP404c
Standing waves makes all audio sound muddy particularly the human voice in a 4 walled room. Try to angle the speakers and project the center directly to if possible to ear level. A decent center speaker and the original quality of the sound production is a major factor of clean crisp center sound. As one gets up in years voice frequency hearing also deteriorates. Sorry for the bad news.
After using AIMP I just found out how bad the receivers DSPs are. Dolby and DTS should do a much better job considering the royalties they charge.
Dynamics between 120 decibel tips center firing axis
I've got one tip too. Some movies may have 50% of sound coming through center channel. So don't buy a cheaper one. At least it has to be of the same line up as your L and R speakers. The bigger center channel speaker is the better sound it will have. That's a rule.
And for certain older movies, 100% of the audio comes through the centre channel.
I have my center in a cabinet about a foot below ear level. Will angling the center channel upward a few degrees make a noticeable difference?
Yes, i did with a crappy onkyo center channel and it was a great improvement.
What about cinema eq on Denon receivers?
Turn it off. Just messes up sound. I only use dynamic eq
I wonder who made the first center channel or did brands release the first center channels simultaneously,and what were those first available channels?
Dude cinemas in the 40's had centre channel for movies. Its not a recent thing.
Well, Cinema's used to be Mono so they ONLY had a center channel. But I know what you really mean is the MTM arrangement used in homes. So basically the story goes that back in the 80's, the first Dolby surround systems used upright MT style speakers. People were laying the speakers on it's side because it looked better and fit under the TV better. It was realized that an MTM arrangement would improve the dispersion of the speaker so the left and right side had symmetric dispersion. The problem is really laying a speaker on it's side. It doesn't mean you can't have a good center with an MTM, they exist. Revel has made some excellent ones. But most have serious lobing issues which cause this speech problem.
@@PoesAcoustics That's mostly what I meant.I should have been more clear.What were the first center channels for 5.1 use,when people first started using 5.1 with DD.I knew back in the day about mono etc.When DVD first launched one of the new benefits of DVD was discreet 5.1 or even before then with Pro logic that added a center channel.What were the first center channels available?
Thanks for drawing attention to this epidedmic. I would also suggest using identical speakers - large ones - for the left, right and centre speakers - B & W Theatre series for professional installers, B & W 800 and 700 series centre speakers are large enough for this purpose. Other speakers are of course available. I can now switch off the sub-woofer which also helps.
Music is fine without a subwoofer as practically all music is designed for just the front left and right speakers.
Movies you definitely need a subwoofer for the big action scenes.
Chinda Ajoku - sub-woofer not necessary if all your prime speakers are large, based on my own system and adjusting the sub woofer to prove this.
Gene turned the lights on!
If 3 identical speakers can be used in front, like klipsch rp-6000f, would this be preferable to a horizontal center? Or is there a benefit to using a speaker designed as center?
3 identical speakers are the perfect option (for uniform quality of sound across the front) if you can go with that. They only sell horizontal center speakers because for many people they’re much easier to place (usually below the screen).
@@rosstee not many people have the space for a 100inch or larger projector to place a vertical speaker directly behind the projector screen.
@@C--A Yes that's true, although it can also be possible to have three vertical speakers just below the screen.
@@rosstee Vertical speakers under the tv or non accoustic transparent screen is a bad idea. Because the tweeter will then be well below ear level.
If you can't place the centre channel behind the screen. Then just above the tv/screen and angled slightly down tweeters firing to you're ears. Is better than centre channel below the tv/screen.
@@C--A It all depends on the speakers and the setup in the room. I have fairly small floorstanding speakers for left and right channels and a horizontal centre. Due to the room being quite narrow and the screen being 100", all three are situated just below the screen. Because the seating in my room isn't very high, the speakers are perfectly at ear level. The screen is slightly higher than 'the ideal' but it doesn't feel too high, especially as the seats recline to allow viewers to angle themselves back a little. Many people have to make compromises when setting up home cinemas/theaters, and in my case I feel I've had to make very few.
Okey. I will move my center speaker to the front of my shelf.
On my prior tv I could keep the tv speakers on along with my theatre set up. Would put it on "clear voice" and adjust volume separately and accordingly. It was crazy good. Vocals would shine thru in any situation. Latest tv I can't do that. Bummer.
You shouldn't use any tv speakers for home theatre. A average bookself, floorstander, wallmounter will beat the crap out of any television speaker!
@@C--A Just for vocals. Didn't read it?
@@Bubbles99718 I read it fine! You need to brush up on you're audio knowledge. Actually thinking a tv's tiny thin speakers will be better for vocals than a separate centre channel speaker 🤦🏾♂️
@@C--A The pt is u could control the volume of the dialogue. Too often it gets overwhelmed by everything else.
What kind of tv was that?
I was using 2 Emotiva xpa 100 mono blocks for my fronts and my Marantz was doing the other 9 channels and with older blu ray movies most of them I had to crank the center channel up by 2 or 3 to hear the voices and some of the newer 4k movies had to boost it also. Then I got a Anthem MCA 325 to do the fronts and center and the whole front sound stage was improved and now I dont have to boost the center channel like before My speakers are Linn Majik 140 all around in the main 5 So getting a better amp up front improve the sound quality all around and The mono blocks are doing the rear channels now .
Wouldn't the best center channel be a third copy of your left and right speakers and all at the same height level?
Yes, most definitely! A great center is better vertically situated if possible. And preferably has a 3-way or 2.5-way crossover. The MTM design horizontally placed was strictly for ease of placement, not best audio response.
If the center channel needs to be in a cabinet, what would you do in terms of treatments etc?
make sure the cabinet is moved out to the edge of the cabinet to reduce diffraction and reflections. Then put insulation all around the speaker to absorb any reflections that are left.
@@PoesAcoustics Thank you. Great, there is essentially no space around the speaker.
Would a rear ported center channel suffer in a cabinet? (Like the Klipsch 404c mark 1) or should stick with the mark 2 that is sealed? Cheers
Matt you look tired. Thanks for the video! Congrats again!!
I was thinking the same thing. Gene likes is late night videos!😁
Probably due to the new baby which he mentioned towards the end!
Yeah Man, I just had a baby. I haven't slept more than 4 hours in months!!!!
Honestly, ever since I moved to my dedicated room, speech intelligibility hasn't been a problem.
Audyssey can be a problem, since it blows up the Surround Volume...so you have to compensate for that.
What I still haven't understood though is, why limiting the frequency range of RoomEQ is so often recommended...I tried it briefly once, and could not really hear any advantage, but I did not check the results with REW yet, so don't know how much nit actually does...
Because it really isn't easy to fix a speakers response in room based on in-room measurements. There are systems that can do an OK job, but it can be very hit or miss. Certainly no EQ can fix a bad speaker, a bad speaker is a bad speaker.
By limiting the EQ to below a certain range, like 100hz or 500hz, you limit the EQ to the area it can most easily fix and reduce the chance that it actually makes things worse.
REW measurements won't necessarily tell you what you need to know either. Your 2 ears and a brain can do things a single omni mic cannot, so what happens is that the measurements look great, but the sound isn't so great. There are ways to measure for this, I covered it in another one of our videos, but to be honest, there are many unanswered questions here still.
That's one thing I used to suffer with when I had a basic system. But since 2012 I put a system together for £8000 I have dali zensor 7.2 set up and never noticed my centre struggle
Incorrect. It doesn't matter if you have a £800, £8000 or £80,000 system. If the source - dvd, blu ray, 4k blu ray is mastered poorly for the speech then it will affect any system cheap or expensive 👍🏾
For certain Disney, Nolan etc discs the only thing you can do is raise the centre channel volume. Turn the centre channel trim up a notch or two 👌🏾
@@C--A overall yes it does but there is not really that many blu-rays that have that kind of issue that i own. Lol in fact i don't own any with that kind of issue as it makes my blood boil i will stop movie and pit straight in bin.
Can you cover how can I get my wife to Shut up while enjoying a great Movie? Would be great, thanks.
Can’t we just turn off midrange compensation rather that use flat on Audyssey?
I’ve heard that you can do that from another audio professional.
Here’s the other TH-camr I found. Look up “Home Theater Gurus”.
I actually have a bit of an echo now that I’ve got curtains! Before, with aluminium shades, there was no echo at all... how the f did that happen? I though curtains were supposed to help with preventing echo?!
Change your curtains to good quality thick cotton or polyester curtains. Ideally 421 grams per square metre (GSM) or higher.
A good thick pair of curtains will be much better than metal aluminum blind shades. You will notice the difference straight away regarding sound quality.
Here is another tip. Skip the center speaker and let the two front speaker replace the center speaker. I got rid of my center speaker years ago when i noticed it created more problems than solved. Especially when it comes to matching the whole front stage between the speakers. Everything fell into place for me when i stopped using the center speaker.
Same. Have run with phantom setup now for over 10 years. So much better.
That’s great as long as you’re sat quite centrally between the speakers, not so much if you have multiple seats and people regularly watch with you (unless they’re not too fussy about sound).
why so early?
Stop watching movies with Tom Hardy in them.
Give an opportunity to the other person to speak as well besides just asking him to endorse your view 😊
That's my view man! This is a cut from a larger video where I did all the talking. Gene just wrapped it up for me and that is what you see here.
That’s all well and good however the actors are still mumbling, whispering (Keifer Sutherland) and the sound engineers are mixing it poorly. They probably use headphones to mix it which will always sound clearer than yours and my system at home. All you have to do is play a movie made in the 30’s, 40’s, 50’s and most of the 1960’s to hear how clear the voices were when they spoke. The people in Hollywood need to go back to the drawing board and figure this problem out. Enough is enough.
I couldn't understand a word of that.
Turn up your center channel
I will get rid of my babies crying... lol
My humble advice is make the lenght of your frontal and center channel wire of the same lenght
The wire doesn't need to be exactly the same length as electricity travels so extremely fast through speaker wire to not affect anything 👍🏾
@@C--A not necesary, longer wire more resistance and more work 4 the amp, shorter wire make better performance
Knowledge bomb to the bomb bay...Knowledge bomb to the bomb bay please...over....Roger that, knowledge bomb to the bomb bay.
I just don't see the point of having a tweeter in the centre channel not really needed and all frequency driver is all that's needed. If You can tell me what the benefit of having a tweeter in the middle makes to me, I would have thought it would cause more smearing deaden the sound stage, films don't require high frequency that needs a tweeter, time alignment must be awfully difficult as well
What about having the centre speaker pointing up not forward especially if it's above the monitor maybe slight tilt forward 5,10 degrees that might be a better way to go
There's no issue having it on a itself above the monitor as you say on the edge of the shelf and ideally raised above the shelf tennis balls filled with sand
The centre channel isn’t just for dialogue, most of the film’s soundtrack will come through that speaker including music and sound effects which are shared or panned across the front three channels, which is why those three speakers should match as closely as possible (with three identical speakers being ideal).
*Christopher Nolan left the chat.
Isn't Rocket Science --- Just Get a "Center" that's a s close to "Mains" Performance as Possible w/o screwing up your Decor. No Need to Take The Long Way Around The Barn.
People crying 😂
"Get rid of babies..." 😅