Whenever Peter B thinks about the collapse caused from "Canon Events" you can see that he immediately looks to his daughter. He wants to move forward, and supports Miles fully... but hes scared of losing his family that he finally has. And hes even more torn because he knows its Miles that gave him that gift.
@@poggerz6567 He's wondering how could Mayday and Peter B's universe keep existing if in a sense Mayday's inception was thanks to Miles. And he's probably thinking the multiverse thingy is working like Back to the Future style time traveling, where affecting things from the past can cause shit to happen and make future events or even timelines to cease to exist
@@granmastersword No. What I meant, was that in the movie, the only reason Peter B had Mayday was because of miles, and if he's an anomaly, how does she exist, if her own existence was influenced by said, anomaly.
Miguel has fangs, claws, and stuff cause he got his powers when he was spliced with the dna of a spider. He didn’t get bit by a spider, he is literally 50% spider.
@@kvngjaygamez2570 He's 50% because anything less creates a mutated humanoid mess. Miguel ended up extremely lucky really, his co-worker intended on murdering him. But 50% DNA and overloading the machine ended up being perfect splicing. I really enjoy Miguel didn't celebrate his powers like Peter and instead immediately went "I'm a freak!"
@@TheLivelovelaugh165 ahh that’s the reason? I remember the earlier tests resulting in the mutated monster but didn’t know it was because of the spider dna being less than 50%. That’s interesting. My favorite response from Miguel has to be when he learns his claws retract when he touches his own body and proceeds to say along the lines of “if they didn’t retract then going to the bathroom was going to be an adventure”
I love how Hobie tries to convince Miles not to join by ALSO telling him he's not like the other Spiderpeople. "Why do you want to join? You got a good life, a good family."
From Hobies perspective, Miles is a kid trying to join and orphanage while having 2 loving parents. That extends to Gwen as well, Hobie lets her crash at his place. But she has a home. He points out that she left her Hoodie at his place, meaning it isn't her home. Come and get it and bring it home. She makes a point to say she stayed there often, but Hobie isn't letting her get comfortable.
@@CornBreadtm1I think that was just him poking fun at her and Miles as he called her Gwendy when he said all that and said are those my chucks he doesn't mind her staying as long as she needs to either we know this because Miles ask him why he's there he replies looking out for my drummer is all so he's just being kind and poking fun at them from time to time not wanting to kick her out and go home knowing her situation
Miguel is different. Different to all the Spider people. He isn't funny, his powers are different, his priorities are different. This is important in the movie, because of his confrontation with Miles. He says Miles doesn't belong there, doesn't fit in, but in great irony, he doesn't fit in either.
Yeah, despite Miguel's belief of "Canon Events" He doesn't follow or experience any of them. He didn't lose his uncle (Pretty sure he doesn't even _have_ one), he wasn't close to his police captain, he wasn't bit by a spider. His powers are completely different from any other Spider-Man. Miguel is just as much of an Anomaly as Miles.
@@TheRedMan77Miguel isn't an anomaly, he's well established, you do not understand what an anomaly is, Miles is an anomaly because he got bitten by the spider from another universe, if he got bitten by the spider in his universe, he won't be an anomaly, so yeah
@@bradwhite5884 Okay but, Miguel said that _every_ Spider-Man goes through the Canon Events. He didn't, so obviously he's not normal right? Miles is still more of a 'Real Spider-Man' than him by his own definition, seeing as Miles has gone through Canon Events where he hasn't. You get where I'm coming from right?
@@TheRedMan77 We don't know much of Miguel and became Spiderman after Peter from his universe who's probably retired long before his time tbh, just think, Miguel is from the future for one universe, so who knows tbh
the miles we know isn't belong among the spidermans bkz he is not one of the miles moralles who should have the spider powers but miquel still has a world and he is the original spiderman in his universe so he BELONGS to the place where he is. when talks about "belong here" he mentions specificly about the miles we know
@@schnee1 I was thinking that maybe in her mother eyes, Miguel may be misled of the path she thought was better, kinda like a fallen angel (like Satan is suppossed to be). And to cope with it, Miguel has tried to 'fix his errors'. I also think his mother had a similar way of coping with her errors (?). (im rlly ignorant in angelogy as well)
I think an important thing to remember about Miles two cakes is that when both cakes get to the party both are messed up. And Pav says “I can do both” about saving his girlfriend and the Inspector, but he actually couldn’t. Without Miles one of the people Pav wanted to save would have died. I think Beyond will show that you can “do both” but not alone. Miles will need the help of the other Spider People that he’s friends with. He may even end up teaming up with Prowler Miles as well. Miles isn’t afraid to go his own way, but maybe he doesn’t have to do it alone.
If all this boils down to in the end is the power of friendship, I'll be very disappointed. Some flavor of this seems very likely to happen, but I hope we can expect a more nuanced outcome.
@@AllUpOnsI mean, it will be solved in group as teased by the new faction Gwen leads, so it's very likely someone is going to say "you don't have to do it/this alone" but idk if I would still call it just another "power of friendship" ending imo the "POF" endings are a problem for the lack of detail on what they are saying, they say nothing or little, spider verse already earns the differentiation with the specificity of the gradient "fix problems but stay fixed on the past" of the spiders vs the "just keep moving forward regardless of anything" of spot the "I can do both" makes it a non POF in my book
@AllUpOns13 I think it's less "power of friendship" and more of a "no man is a island". Having a community to have your back is kinda the reason humans have gotten so fat and survived so long.
what I love about miguel is how he takes “with great power comes great responsibility” to the extreme. how he handle the spider society, how he treats miles, how he treats himself. his spider powers are even more extreme than the other spidermen turning him into this vampire esque spiderman. he is such a perfect foil to miles, him and spot are really.
It goes deeper than that. Miguel can be thought as the first "Miles Morales". He was the first Spiderman to not be a Peter Parker variant and carve his own unique story (which is why his canon events don't show up in the movie). He's also the second Spiderman in his timeline (hence Spiderman 2099). Miguel's suit is even described to be "black and red" in the first comics, but it appears blue due to the color inker misreading "black base and blue shadows." The main difference is Miguel is jaded and got his powers well into adulthood.
@@TheLivelovelaugh165It's less inker mistake and just the aesthetics of a cyberpunk future. If he was conceptualized today, he'd be neon pink instead of blue.
I think I slightly disagree about Spot and a couple of his lines. He's future focused, but ONLY as recompense for the past such that Miles can suffer as he suffered. He acts with reckless abandon for "self-improvement" but only for the purpose of destroying the enemy from his past. What do you do when you want to fix that agonizing hole in your past, but you're not good enough to do it? He feels his entire life is just be the weird holes guy with no family, while Miles gets to be a proper spiderman. I wonder if that's related to how Miguel "isnt like the others" and also thinks its unfair Miles gets to be spiderman. Spot is right, we all have holes. So what is his answer? Fill it with more holes. Lean in to the tragedy. Go beyond allowing it to happen like Miguel, and go beyond trying to keep going and get better like Miles. Fuel your tragedy so much that it consumes the world. Become big enough of a problem that everyone will take you seriously, literally become the canon event that they dread. This is...Spots version of "doing both"
yeah that's fair, i could also see pairing him with where miles is at when he's talking to 42 mom about finding union between his past and future -- but for spot its still in this destructive way? i def gotta think about it more
oh that's not even talking about how spot's "final form" is akin to Mile's "no expectations" / great expectations essay spray paint thing. no expectations, meaning anything is possible? im really not sure honestly
I feel like this IS part of being future facing. It's a phase. Without revealing too much about my own psychology and experiences there is a part of moving forward I almost never see talked about. No longer being bound by your past is not a binary step of either you're caught up in the past or you have reconciled it and it's now done. What happened to me and happens to so many when they start to make progress towards letting go of your past is that you actively distance the past from your motivation. As you say you now suddenly seek 'newness' to an almost reckless degree and refuse to even acknowledge your past. That's where Spot is. But (from experience) that is also just a step in the process that's not sustainable. I can't tell you where that journey goes I'm still very much on it and figguring it out but your experiences in the past DO shape you and that's also a good thing. By distancing yourself from that fully you're also denying all the good things you learned and are kind of lying to yourself that your world view isn't still shaped by what you experienced. And Spot hasn't gotten there yet. The danger is that he's so powerful reckless that he might detsroy himself and others before he can get to that realization.
I like how you mention that because Miles' story is different, it truly embodies the ideal that it really can be anyone behind the mask. Stan Lee literally said the reason he created Spider-Man with a mask was so that ANY kid could imagine themselves behind the mask and not a single kid has the same backstory.
And the comics played into it too. "I know why Jameson doesn't like me! It's because I'm BLACK!" "I, he, he wears a mask all the time! There's never any skin showing to know what race-" "I'm just kidding I'm not black." Like a moral Deadpool
So about Lyla, she's like JARVIS. A sentient AI who has a mind and personality of her own. Regardless of if she may or may not get a character development arc of her own, its important to remember that she's ultimately always in one way or another a reflection of her creator, who is Miguel. He intentionally created her personality, her sassy quips and comebacks, and her functions & mannerisms, to be the way that it is for a reason.
The intent of Lyla is being a foil assistant to Miguel. She's the one who constantly tries to defy and make him think beyond his choices, one who questions and needs to be against some of his ideas in order to make the correct ones. Also so he doesn't lose his sanity or falls back into a drug addiction according to his first origin story before he became Spider-man.
Off-Note: I like how Miguel's story being a Mirror to Miles. While Miles is eager to prove he is Spider-Man (and some people questioning his validity on it too), Miguel also faces People questioning his validity as Spider-Man. - Cops thinking he's a bad guy - Gwen asking who he is, then not caring - Peter saying how different he is to other Spider-Men - Miles questioning if he's sure he's even Spider-Man
miles story had nothing to do with socalled being spiderman, thats just a name .His story is to prove can is a man that can take care of himself and family
@@IronheartvsMiles Did you WATCH the first movie? It’s literally him living up to the name of Spider-Man and being worthy of it. Finding that strength to take up such a heavy role
@@Anthony_Caliber the whole movie of ATSV is about standing out and going against the norm and doing your own thing and being different but did Miles really do that if he did something everybody (audience) could get behind and sided with him and shit on Miguel? Also I love how Spider-Man fans say Miguel is completely wrong and unreasonable but would hate any spider-man adaptation in which uncle Ben lived and didn’t die, and fans wanted MCU Peter to suffer consequences and loss and not have it all/the easy way out, and would NWH and PS4 be as popular as they were if Aunt May didn’t die? A lot of people that just shit on Miguel are blinded by their emotional hormones and lack any rational intelligence and can’t consider the other side and only see black and white and can’t see that neither side is completely right or wrong Spider-Man fans do not want to be wrong and always want to be right and on the winning side Miguel is meant to represent the Spider Man fandom as a whole. directors pointed out that this idea of the canon acts as a critique of spiderfans who act as though all Spider-Men have to go through the same "canon" moments. And that any adaptation that doesn't is "an anomaly" or wrong and is treated harshly. It sounds like Spider-Man fans are projecting their self absorbed and insecure demands onto Miguel and don’t want to be wrong the whole movie of ATSV is about standing out and going against the norm and doing your own thing and being different but did Miles really do that if he did something everybody (audience) could get behind and sided with him and shit on Miguel? Also I love how Spider-Man fans say Miguel is completely wrong and unreasonable but would hate any spider-man adaptation in which uncle Ben lived and didn’t die, and fans wanted MCU Peter to suffer consequences and loss and not have it all/the easy way out, and would NWH and PS4 be as popular as they were if Aunt May didn’t die? A lot of people that just shit on Miguel are blinded by their emotional hormones and lack any rational intelligence and can’t consider the other side and only see black and white and can’t see that neither side is completely right or wrong Spider-Man fans do not want to be wrong and always want to be right and on the winning side Miguel is meant to represent the Spider Man fandom as a whole. directors pointed out that this idea of the canon acts as a critique of spiderfans who act as though all Spider-Men have to go through the same "canon" moments. And that any adaptation that doesn't is "an anomaly" or wrong and is treated harshly. It sounds like Spider-Man fans are projecting their self absorbed and insecure demands onto Miguel and don’t want to be wrong People are so caught up in calling out the already established inconsistencies in the canon event idea that they don’t understand or acknowledge the thematic significance of canon events as a representation of “necessary story beats (especially for Spider-Man)” that they for years want to happen all the time but can’t admit they were wrong or were challenged by that.
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674Agreed, neither side are either right or wrong, its what we know what is a good choice to take or follow what's important, also no one knows what it is to be a hero and sacrifices said hero takes, the canon events can apply to all superheroes being trapped in a cave building an exosuit to fight while trying to prevent metal shrapnel heading to your heart, go through a process to get a super serum into your body to make you strong to fight in the world war only to go missing in the mid of battle only to be frozen in time, or your parents sent you to another world as your planet gets blown up and landed in the countryside to be raised by a farming family or witnessing your family being murdered in the alley way after leaving the theatre, these could also considered as canon events, so yeah
One thought I have had recently about Miguel, is that his plan is the opposite of Kingpins in the last movie: - Kingpin lost his family, so he would destroy the world to get them back, undoing his mistake. - Miguel lost his family, so he would encase the world in a protective web, keeping others from making his mistake. In both cases, it is an obssesive, outward and destructive approach, that falls apart under closer examination.
The huge thing about the ending scene is that like, Miles was told he wasn't supposed to even be spiderman, and his spider was supposed to be for a different world entirely, but that's the first time he actually sees it. It was easy to cast it aside when it was Miguel yelling at him about it, but when he actually sees it for himself, you can see the shift in his eyes to the "Oh fck, I caused this-"
Lyla theory: Lyla is a reflection of Miguel. She is what he was before. In the after credit scene of Into the Spiderverse we see Miguel begining his journey across dimensions. He's obviously way more like peter at this point, represented by him calling the watch a Goober. It also may hint to him watching the events of the first movie from a 3rd person perspective. But what I want to focus on is that Lyla makes a joke by poking fun at the name Goober, and yet in the future she makes fun of Miguel for being so serious all the time. Miguel was funny, he was optimistic, and Lyla reflects that, but she's always been the side of him that isn't expressed outright. She uses insult humor when he is making a joke. She tries to get him to lighten up when he's being a buzzkill. Lyla is Miguel's repressed thoughts.
I like to think he created Lyla as an image of what his daughter was to him. Like you said it’s representing what he was before and is what he thinks his daughter would have been like if she grew up.
@@CrackDadlyla existed in the post credit scene of the first movie, where they show him travelling thru the multiverse for the first time. He never had any daughter and probably wasn’t even thinking about one when he built her.
To me, Miles' story sounds like a "kid decides to fix generational trauma" story. Something I'm working towards, and yeah, you do end up defined by your past, but you also strive to make the future better (and sometimes it makes living in the Now hard)
"If you don't tell someone what's going on, you're going to snap." "That's not what someone who's fine would say that. Say 'I'm great, thanks. How are you?'" It's ironic nobody seems to be talking about their issues despite all of them having shared trauma experiences. I want Miles to slap everyone to get better, but he's the only one who didn't experience all that trauma
Yes i love this. The past happened and running away doesn't help the healing. But healing and progress is so possible. We accept the past and it's affects while still moving forward (you've got this friend
This. The one bittersweet thing for me about this movie, is not having or recognizing something like this in my generation. Both movies resonate incredibly with me now, and truly have set me in a healthier mind space. Such great stories, with such a positive outlook on the future, without negative negating the past. I love it
Watching this video it really reminded me of when Mary Jane said “there’s no plan for being someone like you. You just have to make the right adjustments at halftime”. I think that’s the story they’re trying to get across.
Ok but can we talk about something here? Yes, Uncle Ben was a great father figure, and after he was killed, by that time most versions of the spider-people were learning how to do their spiderman thing and internalizing what he said completely alone. Completely. Alone. People alone during or after a tragedy aren't in the best of states, don't necessarily take away or internalize the proper things, and in general possess lingering trauma. You know who doesn't have that? Miles. Yes, he comes from a mixed race family, but his father is CONSTANTLY trying to connect with him, and his mother is FIERCELY focused on him no matter what they do - They are a family. When the collider incident happens and he witnesses someone give their life for him, it's less than a day or two until he finds himself a support network in the form of the spider people. These traumas that were inflicted on the rest of the spider-folk *arent'*, with Miles, purely by virtue of him having a support network in both lives to balance things out. The spider-people were there for him when his parents couldn't be, and Uncle Aaron AND his parents were there for him when his uncle discovered what was going on. Uncle Aaron, a criminal, was looking up to Miles because he was doing what was 'right and just'. Because the circumstances that led to the tragedy and that turned Miles INTO spider-man weren't because he was turning a blind eye to crime, it was because he was trying to do the right thing. As a hero, he needs no other reason. He didn't need to be guilted by Ben, he didn't need to hold everything in, he was "On his way." He just "Needed to keep going." Miles doesn't need to atone for anything, and that's exactly why he stands in opposition to EVERYTHING Miguel stands for. The collider? Not his fault. Aaron's death? Not his choices. Even the Spot is a hilarious analogue for the original criminal that shot and killed Ben, because not only did Miles not have anything to do with him, Spot also chose of his own free will to stay and try to collect things instead of run away. From a writing perspective, Miles Morales in the Spider-verse movies are a huge take-that to the comic book artists that continually pile misery on Spider-people for no other reason than pure drama, and he's also a giant middle finger to the people that think a Spider-man story requires certain tropes and themes such as atonement. I'm getting a little wordy here, but my last little thought: "With great ability comes great accountability." Accountability has a WILDLY different connotation than responsibility. Responsibility is oftentimes read as "Duty". It can be a solemn oath, but typically the vibe is that for whatever reason, a character with responsibilities MUST see to them no matter what. Accountability is a much more neutral connotation, however; less calling, and more watching if that makes sense. Having accountability and being accountable, unlike responsibility, is more about managing and being careful with yourself. There's no "Calling" to accountability, there's "Looking out for yourself." tl;dr Miles is, unironically, the most emotionally sane and available spider-man to ever exist.
Very good point. But this is also where the story becomes interesting. Miles is the emotionally most healthy Spiderman but he's also immature and naive and still thinks relentless forward momentum will fix everything. Miguel is maybe the most emotionally damaged Spiderman but he also has real experience what damage relentless forward optimism can do. And that's also real. I really hope that movie 3 becomes about what they can learn from each other instead of the simpler "young hero teaches old villain why he's wrong!" ☺️
HOLY SH*T you got a really good analysis here. It’s true that Miles is not actually Spider-Man, or at least he doesn’t follow what other spider-people have to traditionally go through. He has no reason for atonement, as the tragedies that have to do with him are not his fault, and there was always people there to emotionally support him whenever he had to deal with his burdens. And on top of all that he’s got even cooler spider powers than the typical Spider-Man, making him the goat fr ☕️😌
Miguel is one of the most compelling Antagonists that I've seen in any form of media over the past few years. I think what makes him so compelling is that I could totally see almost everyone fully agreeing with his goals and his actions if the movie chose to make him the main character/protagonist, now of course you could do that with a ton of different antagonists but with Miguel if they chose to make the movie from his perspective I feel like the writers wouldn't need to show Miles' actions in a negative light and make Miles seem like a villain if that makes any sense. In the end there is just so much about this movie that is different and uniquely compelling, I feel like this movie is going to be pretty influential when it comes to character driven stories which in all honesty this movie deserves because it's a masterpiece.
You are 100% correct. Other than the few "off" moments like body slamming some kid, if the we only knew the story from Miguel's perspective most people would definitely side with him. Miles wouldn't be a villain, people would sympathise but for the most part I think they would still be on Miguel's side if we only saw it from his perspective.
You are right, A villain would sacrifice the world for his loved ones, a hero would sacrifice his loved ones for the world. From Miguel perspective, Miles is willingly killing his whole universe just to safe his father, making him a villain in Migel's story.
It would be definitively intriguing to have the story told from his perspective, we get a fair amount of that tbh but imagine if his pov was the only one we had, how the audiences would react
I dont think youre giving Hobie enough credit. The stuff he steals is heavily implied to be used to build the watches he and Gwen have at the end of the movie. He recognises his own strengths and limitations. He is smart enough to reverse engineer the watches, and places them with the people who have a more solid vision for what they want the future to look like. He knows his part ti play and helps others play theirs
I like to think Hobie sees people who can create a better future. He struggles with it himself, but will assist in any way he can simply because the old model is outdated. Reminds me of a quote I heard saying that you want your children / students to exceed you in every way. It's his way of healing. He is like my father in a way. I know my father would be overjoyed to see me, a Latinx woman, not only in a position where I can comfortably provide for myself and control my own career, but be the first to graduate with a bachelor's in my immediate family. He's closer to Gwen's dad in ideologies, but has life experience like Hobie.
i thought that's exactly what he was trying to say about hobie, i mean he obviously has a bunch of respect for hobie as a deep layered side character, if you saw his video on hobie. i thought he was just saying despite all the cool things hobie can do, he understands his limitations and know someone else (gwen) is more fit to be a leader. (exactly what you said) if this makes any sense
Hobie says all these things he Doesn't believe in, and at the movie's end he shows what he Does believe in. Hobie believes in Gwen, he believes in Miles, he believes in young people fighting for their future.
Agreed. It's not that he doesn't look to the future, so much as that his vision of the future is so explicitly community oriented. It's antithetical to his worldview to see himself as the hero, as the main character in his world, so of course his whole goal is to equip others to freely join together to be the change he believes in.
why i think he didn’t go ful revolution earlier is there was no spark no major moral wrong less radical spider people could symphathise with which will directly put them in conflict with their current comfortable postitions. revolutions can’t start when people are comfortable to conform. aswell revolution can’t be started by one person one main character. hobie isn’t a main character and is against the concept of a main character. that’s kinda the intresting part about a multiverse because we the viewer gets stuck in the main character side character mode set which collapse when in a multiverse everyone is a main character. every one has significance .
The reason Peter B was in his universe is that he was helping to try and stop the universe collapse. You see other spidermen also in that scene to help. You also see on Peter Bs wrist the watch. Which plays into the fact of why so many Spidermen follow him because some have seen it with their own eyes
yeah i even think that for a very brief moment spinneret swung infront of Miguel, you basically cant see her because the camera pans over to Miguel and Peter in that moment
Wouldn't that insinuate that the spider society came before this event then? Why would he have created the society before the collapse of that universe?
@@brookeelliott7549 It could imply that this happened when he was replacing "other" Miguel from that universe. The first movie's post credits scene show that one of the first spidermen that joined the society was 60s spiderman, so he had this plan of needing more spiderpeople from the beginning. That scene with Beter could probably be some time in the society's early stages, where there were fewer members, meaning Beter is somewhat considered to be a veteran among the spider people
@@brookeelliott7549 Yeah. Simple after the collider event he could’ve just said we need a team to prevent stuff like this from happening because the multiverse was insanely close to being destroyed
Talent. Human creativity. Magic for me too... But there are things where you and I excel at too. This is just theirs. Kinda like when I see the inside of a smartphone. How did humans even come up with all these things...
I don’t doubt that the writers pushed their storytelling skills to their absolute limit, agonizing over all these little details and how to incorporate them into the final piece. However, I’m willing to bet that at least a handful of the observations and points brought up here in the video weren’t actually on the team’s minds at the time of writing. When you dedicate as much time and effort towards analysis as schnee here, you can come up with - and support! - any number of interpretations, all equally valid. To me, that last part is a really big indicator of just how great this movie is: if your film can continue to generate such varied, in-depth, and thought-provoking analysis for months after its initial showing, you know you have a quality story.
Time. Dedication. Most importantly, knowledge. There are a lot of elements to storytelling that have been used for generations. Simply reading about them, analyzing them, learning them, can help you apply these rules/ideas/tactics/etc. [>
This video essay contextualizes what makes this miles so distinct. Such a tasteful way of separating Miles’ story from the classic Peter story. I’m very for this
I know! This is why I disliked No Way Home so much, the MCU was making something new with Peter, but then NWH just went "screw that actually!" and just destroyed it, it's so sad
domapine go brrrr no seriously, watching your content after watching hours of video essays just rehashing and reiterating same ideas without any actual analysis of the movie (any movie, in fact) feels like a breath of the freshest air
@@shanicek5188Maybe that's how Miguel ended up the way he did. Miles, Gwen and Peter had loving parents and Miguel didn't. This causes Miguel to hate himself because he doesn't have the light and hope that the other Spider people have
Another thing that suggest that Miguel doesn't move forward is his lack of Spider sense, he quite literally can't sense the future since he is so past oriented which just adds another layer of symbolism to his character 10/10 writing
Nope he is DEFINITELY right. The Canon Events are actually Fixed Points in Time. Miguel knows that and tries to prevent them from being broken so that Incursions don’t happen like with Necromancer’s World and Sinister Dr Strange. Now before anyone says that I’m wrong and that if the Canon Events are actually Fixed Points then the Universe itself would have made sure that they happened like it did in Necromancer’s World with Christine where whatever the Good old Doctor did Christine always died and it took Strange absorbing dozens of Multiversal Demons too break that event. Yes that would be true if the Interruption of the Canon comes from WITHIN in the Universe through Time-Travel and not from a different Universe completely like it was with Miguel himself, Strange 838, Sinister Dr Strange and Necromancer. We all saw that whenever they did what Miles is essentially trying to do break the Canon with powers/knowledge from alternate Universes it caused an Incursion to their own Universes or a Parallel.
@@aranha6285 fixed points are one thing but miquel focused specifically on spiders tragedies on Peter parkers not and copy and pastes for everyone Like Nazis terrible monsters they were but it created history and as bad as they were we couldn't alter it without having a chain reaction of altering history potentially making even worse monsters and we can't know what outcome it would be Like in loki with Pompeii Canon events aren't real and it's not fixed points either Example non canon If you look at pav universe building collapsing with dark matter consuming it when hobie and Gwen are holding it up and miles and pav go down to save people the building is covered in dark matter consuming it causing the hole in mumbattan not canon event disruption Incursions possiblly all the interactions of different universes even with the spiders going to tons of different missions they're universe could be colliding with those universe causing things and getting lucky there's survived like miquels other world he interact too much and stabilise himself as if he was in his dimension kinda like a tether and hes supposed to be in his universe amd he didnt go bsck so it started pulling them together causing the two universes to collide and as miquels universe didn't die in the collision and miquels watch kept him stable to his universe he survived and no one else did allowing him to see on the other side like being able to stand at a missile strike and not be touched by the blast but everyone else is
@@aranha6285 These guys forget how Strange Supreme destroy his own universe while trying to defy an Absolute Point, it's literally the same with Canon Event.
@@raiden_ryoga An Absolute Point seems to be different than a Canon Event tho, as you can avoid the Canon Event, but with the Absolute Point the world/timeline will always find a way to make completely new events to make the said major event happen anyways as we see with Strange Supreme's futile attempts to change an Absolute Point, inly for it to blow up in his face.
I think that Miguel only giving Gwen the watch after she asks herself whether she can "fix this" is him coming to the conclusion that she's in a state to accept the idea of canon events. Gwen thinks her relationship with her police captain is lost, so Miguel- recognising that she's a very capable spider woman- thinks he can say to her "You're right, you can't fix it, but accepting your loss now is going to make what's coming easier." and I think it works on her, until she reconnects with Miles for all the reasons you outline here. I think, and this might be a bit of a stretch, that it also ties in with the motif of having your two cakes, and doing both. Gwen is, in that moment, having to reckon with the fact that she's failed to be both the Spider Woman of her world and the daughter of her world's Captain Stacy, and she doesn't know what to do. Miguel, in offering her the watch gives her a literal and metaphorical way out. She can do neither, leave her world and her father behind, and these people, people like her, will accept her for it.
Honestly I kind of interpreted that less as intentional manipulation (although it kind of is, I guess) and more a moment of sympathy? He is also just some person who's lost and confused- he also doesn't know how to fix this.
@@NeuroPean-df3oh I mean, nothing about him recruiting people to the spider society was ever about manipulation. As strong as Gwen is, Miguel didn't need her and the emotional part of why he let her join is the reason he told her what he told her.
@@NeuroPean-df3ohYeah, but it took Miguel a noticeably longer time than Jess to welcome her into the fold. Miguel was contemplating leaving her. If it was pure sympathy alone, he would have been far quicker to welcome her.
@@hkr0065that’s specifically due to her relationship with miles. Miguel and Jess both know what happened with kingpin and how close gwen and miles got. That’s why he told Jess she knows why when initially denying her
@@hkr0065 Thats empathy is different than sympathy. His whole thing is keeping things as they should be, regardless of whether it’s bad or good. Since the canon was intact, he likely assumed that it was inevitable for this to happen and believed she’d likely be safe regardless (Cap Stacy is the one who dies, not Spiderwoman). He had Gwen join because she feels guilt and so does he. Since he can empathize with her situation, she gets to join. He doesn’t want someone on the team who will let emotions get in the way of doing the right thing. Gwen fails multiple times cuz she cares about Miles. Once she does it the final time, he decides she’s not going to work with them to fix things and sends her back. He knows Capt Stacy won’t be a threat.
So what you’re REALLY saying is that what makes Miles unique is that, unlike every single other spider person, he learned to cope with and process his grief and trauma in a healthy way
@@dookieblossoms2980 Him also having both of his parents can make for interesting stories and relationships he has with the people around him, and he has a little sister now too. As someone with siblings, it's great to know that a character I love is also a big brother now too, because it's something to relate to.
@clapdemcheeks8111 bro? His uncle? The spiderman that died saving him? Disappointing his parents repeatedly because he has to keep a huge secret from them?
I think Miguel is so mad at miles is because he sees his younger self in miles and he hates his younger self so much for destroying and killing billions of lives because of his selfish desires. This is what miles wants to do and Miguel cannot let himself let this ever happen again.
Since I've heard "If not for Uncle Ben, most of us wouldn't be here" from Peter B. Parker, I began to think how sad it is that Spider-Man's superhero work isn't founded mainly on wanting to make the world a better place or unconditional care for others, but on a sense of guilt that can washed away by helping people. Spider-Man in his most depressing form does not help people only because it's the right thing to do, but because of the burden of responsibility that rests on him. As a result, he isn't like Superman or Captain America - he's closer to Batman (it's not without reason that Bruce Wayne also has a problem with accepting relationships in his life and opening up to people). Pavitr in Across the Spider-Verse works great in this context. In his quick recap, we don't hear about his uncle's death, even though it could have happened. What really matters is that Pavitr just wants to help people, feed dogs, fight crime, and at the same time have a relationship with his aunt or girlfriend. He's not bound by any oath, he just wants to do it. Sure, Pavitr has something to learn here too, but he's still that positive, optimistic superhero who does good because it's right and beautiful, not because some trauma from the past forces him to do so. That's why I wouldn't be surprised if Beyond the Spider-Verse's tagline was something like "Why do you wear a mask?". Btw, I love the use of "Beyond" in the title of the finale of this trilogy. And it's not about some stupid move of Miles and Gwen to live-action, but about "going beyond the known rules of Spider-Verse and being Spider-Man". It's time to lead Spider-Man to new and better paths.
i mean pavtir is in the honeymoon im not taking this seriously phase where he would have had some serious accident that makes him actually take being spiderman seriously
Eh, Spider-Man has always been bound by responsibility. The guilt is a factor because of how it played in Peter's life. If he hadn't been selfish, Uncle Ben wouldn't have died, but this is just an underling development of the greater framework: bad things happen when good people who can help don't. At many times we're shown that Spider-Man's moral fiber and will power are far stronger than most super heroes out there, which often leads to Peter getting screwed in his personal file, courtesy of the writers, may I add. It's this tenacity that makes the core of the character. It is atonement, yes, but it is also the right thing to do. Those are not mutually exclusive.
@@sparking023 But what if Pav and Miles are just good people and don't need the trauma to be good heroes? I think that the canon event theory actually devalues the other Spidermen's strenght of character, as if they wouldn't be heroes without the trauma.
@@michelebozza1591 except Miles already has trauma. Uncle Aaron died, but instead of a "with great power comes great responsibility", he got a "do your thing bruv". The entire arc of Miles character is how he's Spider-Man without being "Spider-Man". Pav is just another Spider-Adjacent
@@sparking023 yes and although he had a different kind of trauma, lesson and coping mechanism, he is still Spiderman. To me that means that it's not the trauma itself that define what a spiderman is but the inner personality of the spider people. In contrast Miguel's vision concentrate on the trauma itself as a necessity, not an obstacle to surpass. I don't know if this makes sense, I'm very intrigued by this discussion and can't wait to see the resolution to progress it.
I wonder if he thinks he's saving the Spidermen some pain in a way, like if/when they fail the one they love, its devastating. You think of everything that went wrong, what you could have done differently, etc. But if they don't even TRY to save them, and have time to accept the loss before it even happens, Maybe he thinks it would hurt them less. Its not an accident, and you didnt fail: it was fate. Absolving all the Spiders of any responsibility (wink wink) they had in the 'canon' situations
Peter B. pretty much says this exactly: "If not for Uncle Ben, most of us wouldn't be here, Miles. And all the good we did... It wouldn't have been done." Miguel recruiting people to his cause has always been about preventing what happened to the world he broke from happening again, but the reason everyone joins him is because believing that there was nothing they could do is great, it's easy, and it helps cope with the pain. Most importantly, the sense of belonging that comes from being free of that pain together means that the spiders will do anything Muguel says without question, and there's nothing that could convince them it's wrong.
It always seemed to me that this is indeed a situation of learned helplessness, which may seem strange since we're talking about one of the strongest and well known superheroes out there; Spider-man, but that's exactly the point, learned helplessness isn't something anyone is immune to and Spider-man is notorious for having the worst possible things happen to him/her, regardless of variant or universe. Now the reason I believe it is learned helplessness is because of all the bad things that tend to happen to Spider-man, it just gets too much and not only do you cling on to an easy answer (it must happen because of canon) but the pain searching for a different answer that may not even exist can simply be too much to bear. Couple that with the risk of the multiverse collapsing and it becomes a clearly compelling argument that is difficult to disagree with. But I believe this is exactly why Miles was needed, to see things differently than any other Spider-man, to refuse what was put in front of him just because everyone around him said he didn't have a choice or because it was simple. The reason our Miles Morales is able to see through the mistake that the other Spider-people have fallen victim to is precisely because he is effectively an anomaly, like Miguel said. He is both just like all of them and yet at the same time completely different from all of them. He embodies the two cakes analogy. TL;DR The Spider-people have accepted pain and loss as inevitable and are therefore blind to a different solution, Miles can see things differently and will ultimately be the key to finding out what is really going on/what else can be done. (I didn't mean to drag this out so much I'm sorry but now I've written too much to just delete so I'll put this up anyway)
@@kevin76165 Miguels situation was pretty specific because it wasn't his world. If a Spiderman broke the canon of their OWN world, they would die with it.
@@smileyhappyface5864 how does this disprove my point? Hell it makes it even better, now they owe their LIVES to Miguel and his crew for stopping canon events.
The "I can do both" motif is the iconic spiderman conflict of whether to tell his parents, ruining his chance to have a normal life to go back to outside of being spiderman, or keep it hidden, "doing both", but with both constantly pulling him away from the other, making both his personal life and his work as spiderman tougher.
I think the point that you made saying that Miguel prioritize thinking instead of following his gut is extremely on point, and it makes even more sense when you remember that Miguel is the only spider-person without a spider-sense, meaning he does not only doesn't follow his "gut" he doesn't even have one to follow, so in a fundamental level his character is almost forced to follow his head, and that can be interpreted as him being crippled by his past and overly rational thinking, what makes him unable to see any other side of the story.
Well, the other side of the story is possibly the collapse of an entire universe, so... Logically, Miles is making the most idiotic decision imaginable. He'd rather sacrifice untold TRILLIONS to save one person.
@@cloudGremlin the whole movie of ATSV is about standing out and going against the norm and doing your own thing and being different but did Miles really do that if he did something everybody (audience) could get behind and sided with him and shit on Miguel? Wouldn’t applying the lesson IRL mean siding with Miguel? Also I love how Spider-Man fans say Miguel is completely wrong and unreasonable but would hate any spider-man adaptation in which uncle Ben lived and didn’t die, and fans wanted MCU Peter to suffer consequences and loss and not have it all/the easy way out, and would NWH and PS4 be as popular as they were if Aunt May didn’t die? A lot of people that just shit on Miguel are blinded by their emotional hormones and lack any rational intelligence and can’t consider the other side and only see black and white and can’t see that neither side is completely right or wrong Spider-Man fans do not want to be wrong and always want to be right and on the winning side Miguel is meant to represent the Spider Man fandom as a whole. directors pointed out that this idea of the canon acts as a critique of spiderfans who act as though all Spider-Men have to go through the same "canon" moments. And that any adaptation that doesn't is "an anomaly" or wrong and is treated harshly. It sounds like Spider-Man fans are projecting their self absorbed and insecure demands onto Miguel and don’t want to be wrong People are so caught up in calling out the already established inconsistencies in the canon event idea that they don’t understand or acknowledge the thematic significance of canon events as a representation of “necessary story beats (especially for Spider-Man)” that they for years want to happen all the time but can’t admit they were wrong or were challenged by that.
The things that you can't seem to figure out? They're all related to parenting. Miguel is a dad. That's the image we see of him. Peter B Parker. Also a new dad. Gwen has a dad. Miles "spreading his wings" is about his relationship with his dad. And his relationship with his mom is all part of this too. Heck, Spiderwoman is a pregnant mom! There's a whole parent and kid connection here. All the parents are struggling with control vs letting go. Gwen's dad is so obsessed with protecting his daughter that it comes out as wanting to control her life. In the end, he lets go of that control and recognizes that her life is going to be different than he expected, but that she will be her own person who he loves. Miles's Dad is also trying to protect his son by controlling him. If he can ground Miles (literally keep him from flying), than Miles will be safe and mature. His mom realizes that they need to let go and have Miles be his own person in order for him to be an adult. Miguel is a parent. He lost his family, stole another one, lost them, and is now trying to control all the other spiderpeople in the name of protection. He's being very paternalistic, treating them all as lost children he must protect from themselves. He does this by trapping anomalies, controlling differences. He has not learned to let go of control and let things be different than he expected. He is holding tight and Miles says, "Nah, Imma do my own thing." Miles breaks free and is ready to move into adulthood, even if this parent figure still hasn't let go of control. Peter B Parker is a new dad. He's just starting to realize this fear, the desire to protect May, and Miles. But he's already making different choices. He chooses to let Miles be his own adult, even if it looks different than he thought. Anyway, Spiderwoman will be interesting to watch in the next movie with her position as a mom. And Alt Miles too, as a kid without a father and with a mom who doesn't have the same power.
Also about moving forward, once they learn that to let miles to "grow" instead of controlling him, they allowed themselves to be apart of the present. Still can about him and to keep him safe and such, but not in controlling "sticking to the plan" mentally same with Miguel wanting to keep him and everything else the same to keep going with the "status quote" to keep follow the set plan the canon. Not being one with the present will not make us grow, and will not be able to see the full picture.
Late comment, but genuine question, since maybe I misunderstood. "Miguel is a parent. He lost his family, he stole another one, lost them." When you say "he lost his family". Genuine question, was Miguel ever a parent in his own universe? Or was he only a parent in his alternate universe (the life that he 'stole')? Because what I understood is that he never had any children of his own. Only his alternate self did, but never he himself. So my question is, did Miguel ever have children of his own? Or was he only a parent in the life he 'stole'? Because if so, maybe it's something I accidentaly missed. Again, sorry. It's just a question I genuinely had.
@jack-of-a-few-trades I was sure that losing his family was his canon event, and then he stole a family from an alternate universe...which caused that universe to collapse...but it seems you might be right about his original universe. However, his raising a daughter, even if for a short time in a alternate universe, still puts him in parent category, especially since that daughter is his whole motivation.
@@lydia1634 Aah, got it. Thank you so much for answering. I thought maybe there had been something I had missed. A specific shot in a specific scene, or a throwback comment, or a reference to it, or an implication about it. I'm not disagreeing with your ultimate point. I was just really curious. Because maybe there had been more information that I had accidentally failed to notice. That's why I asked, because maybe there was something in specific, that I accidentally missed. Again, thank you for having taken the time to answer.
Dude, I thought I understood this movie but your essays made me realise it's even deeper than I thought. The idea that Miles isn't like other Spider-Mans, because he is defined by his future, while everyone else is define by the past is such an amazing concept I completely overlooked. It also makes me even more impressed with the writing skills the creators of Spider-Verse have
I always though the two cakes motif was Miles's refusal to choose between being Spiderman and his family (being Miles). While all the other Spiderverse people have simply accepted this as truth, Miles is actively rebelling against it. He's refusing to accept the binary and instead is "doing his own thing." He's going to find a way to have his cake and eat it too, even if that means baking two cakes. Also I ADORE your videos; thank you so much for all the great insight and hard work you put into these!
I do appreciate the idea that Miles is trying to go against the norm of what it means to be Spider-Man (losing the ones you love) but I can’t help but be reminded of another Spider person who tried to have his cake and eat it too and you just have to watch No Way Home to see where that got him. I guess we’ll have to wait until the third film to see if Miles will succeed or if indeed “no good deed goes unpunished”.
Miles and Gwen is a bs pairing. Fucking gross Way to deage her and all that bs. Miles dad will sacrifice himself because he knows that’s what you gotta do sometimes, or his mom will die in the comics because of his own fault and learn nothing from it. Miles is a shit character.
@@jjjwhovian the problem with punishing Miles for going against the flow would be that it'd once again just put the whole logic of being spider-man back to square 1 with the comics problem of always making Spider-Man suffer, how they can never have just a happy ending or anything of the sort, kinda a bad idea to send a message of "Trying to change the world for the better will only always get your life fucked up beyond all repair."
The importance of Canon events is this (and you can see it through Spider-Man India in comparison to both Miles and Miguel): A Spider-Man who does not know the price of being Spider-Man thinks the job is easy. Miles skipped that step because him becoming Spider-Man caused his universe's Spider-Man to die. (Skipping that step is strike one against Miles). A Spider-Man who thinks the job is about Justice is an immature Spider-Man because the vagueness of the goal insinuates he doesn't have a deeper reason. A Spider-man who thinks that being Spider-Man is fun does not know the difficulty of hard choices (I.e. saving his girlfriend, or the police chief he is close to) and will inevitably make the selfish choice (and will likely lose the girlfriend later as a result). And a spider-man who hasn't had a significant moral failing doesn't understand the responsibility of being spider-man, and therefore does not fully understand the adage "with great power comes great responsibility" Miles IS right for his stage of being Spider-Man, and Miguel IS right for his stage. And they are wrong for eachothers' stage.
I’m really curious on how Miguel’s story will conclude in BTSV, I hope he doesn’t die and is able to see what truly caused the universe of his alternate variant collapsed and gets some closure from it.
If the writing is good, Miguel will sacrifice himself to defeat spot, mirroring the scene at the end of the first movie with Beter. If the wrriting is excellent, miles won't let him and they will defeat the spot together, with miguel learning to live in the present
Shnee: follows the themes and character motivations to make this spectrum of the ideology of moving forward and fixing stuff. Hobie: I dont believe in Shnee's ideology spectrum Truly the punk spider
Schnee came up with this whole spectrum line of "fix it" and "move forward" and puts each character down and Hobie's like "nah I'm not even there, m8". Even in a meta context he's still a punk 😂
Right. He tears down the old to make space for the newer and better. I think he is very much in the present, because he has to be aware of the problems he sees in his present to change it.
@@soren4818 he is after all a representation of punk culture. A culture that is all about rejecting established systems to allow full freedom of expression, rebelling against those forcing people to conform to a way of living or thinking
problem is when you only think about the future, you'll never learn form past mistakes. miles can move forward, but his past(spot/miles 42) will catch up to him eventually, and miles will have to learn responsibility from consequences. Miguel probably only thought moving forward aswell when he was in a separate universe, and it all his consequences followed him.
One of my two current ideas with Lyla is that she may be the one to finally prove to Miguel that he’s going about everything wrong. The only “evidence” I have towards this is that sense she is able to track the spot and is almost computerized in a way that she may be able to show Miguel proof from how Miles and Gwen’s team react to things that there is a better way to live. My other idea is that she may be the one who is keeping Miguel’s idea that he is going about it in the correct way. Maybe she’s a villain who sits on his shoulder and reminds him of how he’s failed. I don’t know if either of those made much sense, but they are the ideas I came up with
Miles says "so we're just supposed to let some algorithm decide"- or something of that kind. I think she's being used as a tool to perpetuate Miguel's worldview, but she's very fun and lively and quippy, all things Miguel isn't, really? She's the one who helps him make the watch to the multiverse.
- i think Beter was literally physically there bc Miguel was seeing the beginning of that disaster, maybe a couple of dissolving buildings, and calling in a skilled spider or spiders to help him save people. - Theres a deleted scene from the first movie where beter explicitly tells miles NOT to focus on saving the whole world, but on saving one specific person, and in one of the games, Peter is angry and yelling at Miguel for even considering letting a woman die, even if it means everyone else would be saved. Trying to do both, and specifically focusing on a loved one in peril is a core aspect of the character of Spiderman. He doesnt consider there being backlash to doing this, he always goes in expecting/willing himself to do it all, and is totally caught off guard if/when it goes wrong. And in order to have that core spiderman belief change so drastically, only seeing the backlash first hand, being in the middle of a huge disaster that could/would happen again if you try to fight it, could do that. If beter wasnt personally there to see it, he would almost certainly still be in the "there must be another way" camp.
I've also been thinking about the frequent "I can do both" statements from multiple characters and I think it strongly relates to canon events. The idea of Spiderman trying to "do both" happens frequently in every spiderman story and in every case a choice has to be made that ends up in a canon event. For example, Pativr Prabhakar saying that he can do both when trying to save his girlfriend as well as the captain. A huge theme in spiderman is that they are constantly trying to "do both" and taking on so much, and it isn't always possible. I agree with your idea that these statements are moving toward the idea of anything is possible and I can because I want to. I thought a very poignant moment was when Miles learned about canon events and said to Gwen that she wasn't trying to protect him, she was trying to protect the "spiderverse" (when she tried to stop Miles intervening in Spiderman India's canon event). She turned to him and said "I was doing both". I think this is a huge foreshadowing that both cannot be done. Miles cannot be protected while canon events and the "spiderverse" are also protected. I think the idea of anything is possible will be held up because there will be some sort of change with the "spiderverse", canon events, or his relationship with 42 Miles/world that allows everything to be possible - the existence of Miles, the safety of his father, and the "spiderverse" not collapsing.
FINALLY someone who doesn't fixate on "this person is wrong" or "this person is right" and instead says "they're BOTH wrong and they're BOTH right, they just have to meet in the middle."
So interestingly, you mention about how Uncle Ben dying is about the message behind him dying rather than the actual event. It's almost like Miguel is trying to preserve the messages and lessons Spider Society receive which crafts them into the Spider people they are. I reckon it's not so much about 'preserving canon' by having characters experience bad things, it's more so that Miguel is so short sighted he can't see a better way to impart those important lessons and he's mad that Miles is doing great at being Spider-Man without them
@rozonwell the whole movie of ATSV is about standing out and going against the norm and doing your own thing and being different but did Miles really do that if he did something everybody (audience) could get behind and sided with him and shit on Miguel? Wouldn’t applying the lesson IRL mean siding with Miguel? Also I love how Spider-Man fans say Miguel is completely wrong and unreasonable but would hate any spider-man adaptation in which uncle Ben lived and didn’t die, and fans wanted MCU Peter to suffer consequences and loss and not have it all/the easy way out, and would NWH and PS4 be as popular as they were if Aunt May didn’t die? A lot of people that just shit on Miguel are blinded by their emotional hormones and lack any rational intelligence and can’t consider the other side and only see black and white and can’t see that neither side is completely right or wrong Spider-Man fans do not want to be wrong and always want to be right and on the winning side Miguel is meant to represent the Spider Man fandom as a whole. directors pointed out that this idea of the canon acts as a critique of spiderfans who act as though all Spider-Men have to go through the same "canon" moments. And that any adaptation that doesn't is "an anomaly" or wrong and is treated harshly. It sounds like Spider-Man fans are projecting their self absorbed and insecure demands onto Miguel and don’t want to be wrong People are so caught up in calling out the already established inconsistencies in the canon event idea that they don’t understand or acknowledge the thematic significance of canon events as a representation of “necessary story beats (especially for Spider-Man)” that they for years want to happen all the time but can’t admit they were wrong or were challenged by that.
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674you’re grouping people together. I for one never even cared about marvel as a whole before ITSV came out. I had zero experience with any Spider-Man until that point. When I watched ATSV I had seen one Spider-Man movie (not including ITSV). And I very much agree that Miguel is in the wrong. I don’t think the movie is about going against the status quo; I don’t think any good movie could possibly be about that, because like you said the status quo is something that we quite like and live by. A great way to assess a theme of a story is by seeing what the character learns. I think the story is not about abandoning the status quo but rather not allowing it to punch us into boxes, and that if it tells us we don’t fit in, that’s okay, because we didn’t need to fit in in the first place. Miguel does not fit this bill. He forces everyone to live the life they should rather than the life they want to. No matter which way you frame it, he isn’t “sticking it to the man,” because he IS the man, he’s the one punching people into boxes. And this is ironic considering the way you were talking about Spider-Man fans. How they’re all this and they’re all that. How they ALL see in black and white. Maybe you’re agreeing with Miguel more than you think. Maybe you’re the one projecting. Stop punching people into boxes.
Miguel didn't get bit by a spider to get his powers it was an experiment that went wrong but he does have his fangs has paralyzing venom his fingers and toes has retractable used for climbing walls and rending substances as durable as cinderblock. Both forearms contain spinerettes capable of releasing adhesive strands of a webbing-like substance from the backs of his wrists. Miguel has an enhanced fast-healing metabolism, and enhanced sensory acuity enabling him to see in the dark, at great distances, and track fast-moving objects clearly; however, he is more sensitive to light than normal humans
I really think Miguel is projecting super hard on Miles. Miguel literally stole another Miguel's place in another dimension, and his actions had harsh consequences. Miles and Miguel probably share more similarities than any other pair of spider people in the canon, and Miguel is using that connection in a toxic way. But the difference between him and Miles is that Miles didn't consciously go to another dimension and try to 'steal' it, he just got bodied by a stroke of luck (good or bad?) and is now rolling with those circumstances.
This is an absolutely fantastic analysis of not just Miguel and Miles but the underlying base motivation of Spiderpeople. I’m getting a huge vibe that this trilogy could open us up to a brand new kind of Spider-Man. That we can tell stories that don’t start with tragedy.
The line that I always remember when I think of Miguel is “I’ve given up too much to stop now.” In the Spiderverse canon, giving up/sacrificing/losing something is what the good guys do. Does Miguel believe if he started thinking of what he wanted as an individual it would make him a villain? Because he did think for himself, and it had the world-ending effect that is expected from “bad guys.”
It’s interesting that you said that Miguel is in a fixed mindset for this movie, since that’s how he started out in the comics too. Personally, I view Miguel’s conflict in ATSV to mirror his conflict in the comics where he relies on a system based on control (working for Alchemax, upholding canon events theory) to gain stability due to his past trauma based on instability (his childhood abuse, alternate dimension collapse). Also for Lyla, I think she’s meant to reminiscent of Xina Kwan, Miguel’s ex-girlfriend that he has lingering feelings for in the 90’s comics. These lingering feelings are shown in Lyla’s design such as her being East Asian and having heart eyed sunglasses, along with her function of both keeping Miguel in check and being his best friend, roles that Xina played. If anything, Lyla acts as a reminder of his past life and relationships in the comics as in the film, Miguel hides his real comic book origins, likely due to how traumatic it was.
So is lyla about control as well. Him wanting her near because of growth since it was a time where he was happy or in love which is growth, or "keep him in check" meaning he doesn't stray from control " his status quote" "himself" his past. Idk?
I have a theory about Miguel. Miguel is not an echo of Peter Parker / Spiderman. He is an echo of Kingpin. If you look at what we know of his backstory, they parallel the actions Kingpin takes in the first movie. They both break outside their narrative reality to grasp at the thing they want, which the story of their lives denied. This is also why there is a bitter anger towards Miles breaking "Canon" and rejecting the Spider Society ethos. Miguel cannot accept that Miles can escape the Spiderman story, because that acceptance would shatter the lie he has constructed for himself.
im so glad im not the only person who thinks he's an equivalent to kingpin. the miguel we meet is the manipulated version of miguel that he's created, unlike kingpin, whose motivations were immediately clear
Miguel is a lot easier to analyze when you consider his fatal error; his obsession towards resolving canon events as a result of his own actions. He views the world with a cold, scrutinizing glare, but what Gwen said struck a cord close enough to home that it penetrated that attitude. She was in his position; facing down the barrel of a gun called 'consequences'. And, he saw a chance to do what nobody else could in his own situation; removing said consequences. Or, at least, delaying them. Fixing his error is his motif, as you go on to describe, but I think this should be taken into account too. I think the reason why we don't know too much about canons and other such things yet is because Miguel himself doesn't entirely understand the forces he's working with. But, instead of seeing what Miles is doing as another path, he sees him going down the same road he did, but worse; taking _others_ down that road. My guess is that, in the next movie or two, they'll begin to truly understand the forces behind canon events in a way Miguel was too afraid of exploring, that he pretended to know more about than he actually did. I haven't finished the video yet, but I paused upon seeing you being unable to understand the character. I don't know how literal you were about it or which element you specifically referred to, probably in the context of his unknown level of knowledge, but the one thing many people fail to consider is the most basic kinds of psychology; the kinds that surround behavior, masking, putting up a front. Somehow, I get the impression that Miguel isn't nearly as in control as he would like to make it seem.
Ironically in the art book miquel doubts the canon theory himself and believe if he used all his power he could save everyone but chooses not to as risk
Listen. I just have to say that this is the best breakdown for a movie I have seen for Spiderman in a longggg time! The minor details you put in just shows how hard you worked and shows how great the writing is. I love videos like this. Please do more. You sir earned my respect, attention, and subscription!!
I actually think Hobie is perfectly in the center the entire time. While Hobie is all about tearing down the old, it's being done in a way to build for the future. Yeah he's stealing bits from Miguel (the past) but doing so as a means to help Gwen (The Future). He learns about how to break the barriers (the past) so that one can break free from it and continue moving forward (the future) He talks shit about the Spider Society (the past) so that Miles isn't held back by it and can advance his own goals (the future) Hobie knows he's not the main character, he knows no one actually is. Everything Hobie is doing is about tearing down the past while simultaneously building a future. Just as an Anarchist will go out smash windows, protest the cops, do graffiti etc... so too will they help tend to a community garden, squat unused buildings to secure places for people to sleep, cook food and hand it out. Hobie's goals are to be part of a bigger community pushing towards the future, a future that understands the past, gets rid of that which is unnecessary or bad, but keeps that which is necessary or good. I also think that plays into his false dichotomy in his intro, where he simultaneously makes a serious point, but undercuts it. He is both serious and funny, he is both focused on the past, but hungry for the future. He steals the show, by playing a supporting role for everyone else.
Agreed! What is more forward facing then giving the next generation the information and resources to determine their own future instead of trying to impose his own ideals
I'm glad I'm not the only one who disagrees with the notion that Hobie has "no positive ideology" He's trying to convince everyone that the status quo is flawed before introducing his idea of how a new system would work
Well said. While Hobie does largely revolve around bringing things down and the past, unlike the spider society, he's striving towards a better world that surpasses the current status quo. He also doesn't fully take control because it's against his morals to be some big leader. He's an anarchist, he dislikes hierarchical systems, even mentioning for the label of hero and how it makes one essentially an autocrat, which is literally what Miguel is. He doesn't care to be the one in complete control because he doesn't think that's as fair as a collective of equals.
Then again he isn't an average spider man he is technically a rebel soldier willing to sacrifice a few to win a war. He doesn't see the same way other spiders do instead it's for the future. He is willing to risk others for the sake of changing something a lot of spider men wouldn't try to do. Heck he knows his putting the lives of billions at risk to help miles and his fine with that for change to happen cause either risk does lives or forever sacrifice people to save a universe In a sense he is a chaotic character after all He doesn't put the same value in the current lives of his risking than others spider men as long as good change happens.
My biggest fear for SPiderverse's impact on the movie industry is the takeaway movie execs will get from it. On the one hand, it's a superhero movie that is culturally relevant. I'm hoping the execs can see past that and recognize that audiences love the Spiderverse movies because they are good stories with rich characters.
Oh leave it to Hollywood exects to draw the wrong conclusion about why something is poplar every single time. Don't you worry. Good writing has never been on their business board.
@@notrelevant6702clearly seeing they havent caved to the strike yet. Which will bite them in the ass as more and more teams of artists, animators, actors etc join in
@@techissus7449Please, the writers are partially why we are in this mess to begin with. Studios can say "write a sequel/prequel/reboot of x,y, or z," but its the writers who help determine the most how good that film is. Get good writers? We get something genuinely enjoyable to watch like Ghostbusters Afterlife. Get bad writers? Ghostbusters 2016. Its always been that way. The problem is writers are phoning it in and turning in absolute garbage, to the point where people are starting to debate if some projects (Barbie, Velma) are right-wing psyops. Things which are written so fundamentally badly, that they go against what the writer originally meant to say. If that's not a complete failure in writing then I don't know what is. That's not even going into how they are currently butchering existing stories because they fundamentally do not understand them. They "update" them and in the process make them thoroughly unintelligible. Is their superhero fatigue? Yes. Can you push past superhero fatigue if story is good enough? Yes. Can the writers working in Hollywood do that? No, heck no. The only people that need to strike are CGI artists. They might as well be in the videogame industry for how much they are being crunched. Also, friendly reminder that the studios were willing to agree with almost all their terms, with the one exception of a mandatory amount of writers in a writers' room, and they still turned it down.
@@alpyki2588 just as GC animators churn shitty GC due to low overall pay and terrible conditions so do writers, it's harder than it looks to just "write a good show" and your ignorance on that matter shows, also It doesn't matter that writers rejected that contract, you've obviously never been in a union if you don't understand why they rejected it
@@techissus7449 Yeah, they rejected it because more union members equals more pay for the union. Some of the writers are even frustrated that the union turned down the last offer. Unions work not to serve its members, but to serve the union staff itself. Much like HR serves the employer, not the employee no matter how much they pretend otherwise. Or how a company says they want to do different noble goals, when all they want to do is make money. To be honest, any agreement regarding AI should be considered a big win, because China, India, etc are looking into it. I wouldn't be surprised if, maybe in 10 years or so, Hollywood will have to compete with foreign AI generated movies that have all the old actors AI generated, along with scripts that match. At that point mediocre movies will not cut it. Hollywood saying they will not use AI is already tying one hand behind their back. The raise in pay itself is ridiculous for what they're asking, especially since most Americans are hurting as well. Its the reason why these writers strikes are treated with derision. And as the strikes go longer and they get ever more increasingly obnoxious, its only going to make the public sour on them more. Also, to my knowledge no writer has been rushed like the CGI artists. And no writer has had an entire studio close down. That's what happened to the people who redesigned Sonic the Hedgehog, their reward for their good work was the shuttering of their studio. Almost any accusation the video game industry has against them regarding the treatment of their CGI artists can now be said about Hollywood.
Notice how Miguel's whole demeanor *changed* from mildly angry but focused on stopping Miles to Completely pissed and focused on putting Miles in his place once Miles said that "Are you sure that you're even Spider-man?" Before that, he was at least calm while trying to stop Miles and somewhat emphatic to some degree while explaining the Canon but after Miles asked that question Miguel just started to talk down to Miles and antagonize him completely. Like he said "You don't belong here. You never did!"
Here's my take on the "Two Cakes" Every Spider-person tends to struggle to find balance. They want to succeed in their normal life, and they want to succeed as Spider-man/woman/pig. They want to be with the people they love, but they also want to protect those people and keep them safe. They feel a huge responsibility to those around them but they hate the sacrifices that responsibility demands. Ultimately, every Spider-person seems to reach a point where they feel like the balance is impossible to maintain and they need to make a choice. Peter (Tobey Maguire) gives up on MJ, Gwen stops making friends, Miguel becomes so obsessed with protecting the multiverse that he attempts to represse ank kind of personal desire. They've all learned that they can't do both. They can't have their cake and eat it too. They can't save everyone. But Miles hasn't learned that lesson yet. He still thinks that there's a way to have it all, save everyone, be both himself AND Spider-man. Dispite a nearly infitite number of Spider-people and their experience telling him otherwise. He rejects everything their telling him about the way things have to be and resolved himself to try to find a way. Now this can go a couple different ways in the 3rd movie. He can fail and finally accept that great responsibility comes with great sacrifice, saving the multiverse at the cost of his own father, and thus following in the footsteps of almost every other Spider-man story. Or he can do his own thing. Find a 3rd option, try something no Spider-person's ever done before. The movie seems to be setting up the latter, but if Miles' is able to succeed then that raises another question. Why him? Countless Spider-people before him must have tried, and failed, so why would he manage to pull it off? Well, I think Miles has 3 things going for him that previous Spider-men lacked. 1) He's willing to come clean and tell his parents about his identity relatively early in his career. Most either never take that step, wait too long, or manage to hit reset and undo the confession. 2) He has warning of what's coming while there's still a chance to do something about it. The others all blindsided by the need to make a choice too late to act on it, so they never got the chance to find their third option. 3) Most importantly, he's not doing this alone. He's got Gwen, Hobie, Peter, Pennie... etc coming to support him. Maybe Miles is the one that's going to show the Spider-verse that Responsibility and Self Sacrifice are not the same thing
Responsibility? To be spiderman or himself. Also can you explain to be past present future. Miles according to the video is leading towards future and later learns he should and does care about the present.
i feel like people brush over the actual content we're provided in the film. his dialogue, his facial expressions, his voice; i dont understand how people can limit his whole character to just this controlling villain. the words "you can't have it all, kid, trust me i tried" and the "this whole time, ive been the one keeping it all together" alone give a lot of insight into the context of his actions. the desperation and fear on his face when he talks to miles about the consequences, the longing on his face when he watched that video of his daughter. i mean its literally all there, and yet i still see "hot takes" minimising his entire character into 'bad guy stopping miles from saving dad ):"
@@Temilade21 i know, but theres an enormous amount of depth to be considered. and its not just making it up, either, its acknowledging the details that the creators put in. at surface level, though, that characterisation would be correct
@@Temilade21I agree with you even in the video he said it …. Like even tho his mom is an a a- hole sheS right he tends to destroy everything around him that’s why this man powers had nothing to do with spiders LITERALLY HE’S A VAMPIRE
@@Itzindiaxduhh He's not literally a vampire, he's literally part spider. He has talons to cling to things like REAL SPIDERS. He can lift things that are many times his body weight like a REAL SPIDER. His fangs are used to inject venom like a REAL SPIDER. His powers are more spider based than "turn invisible and zap people with electricity."
After reading a bunch of other comments on Lyla here are some thoughts: When Lyla was first made she was witty and snarky just as she is now, but Miguel was as well. In the after credits scene of ItS they are having a fun convo which also involves a bit of jabs and banter but you do get the vibe that they're having fun and Miguel is chipper. Now after his trauma he is sad and serious and changed and very much not enjoying himself but Lyla is still the same, she is still throwing banter, still having fun, but Miguel just seems annoyed and irritated at her. He's trying to keep the status quo and revert any changes but Lyla, in staying the same, shows that he himself has irreversibly changed and now has to deal with the reminder of his past.
So about the "I don't know how to fix this" line you brought up I'd like to bring a new perspective to it. I think that Miguel related completely to Gwen's feeling and that statement she made. Miguel *doesn't know* how to fix the issue of canon events and having to let them happen, nor does he know how to *fix* what he had done when destroying a whole multiverse, but he still desires a *solution* for/a way to *fix* the problem- which is similar to Gwen's situation in a way. Since Miguel wants for Gwen not to have to experience this same pain of having a situation that they both deeply want to solve but seemingly can't, he then decides to invite her to the spider society to prevent her from that pain. Which kind of leads me to disagree with the statement that he doesn't care and tears everything down at 23:28 . Miguel himself says that he 'doesn't like what he has to do, but does it because it's necessary' (Check out a scene pack of him, because I can't seem to find a solo video of him saying that). Miguel takes on a role where yes he does tear things down, but he also doesn't tear things down with the a malice, but does it because he does care. He doesn't want other people to experience his pain, so what he does instead is try to prevent them having the same happen to them, which is his way of fixing things, even if cruel. Heck, I think that Miguel genuinely wants a better solution based off what he's said. He currently has the Fix it mentality, but wants the Moving Forward mentality of there being a better way, but until that can be shown and proven, he can't bring himself to let another people take the risk that he took and destroy another universe. He's still stuck in trying to "fix" this issue by not letting the same actions he did be committed Yes, he brings destruction, *but*, he doesn't want other people to be destroyed and torn down the way he was and he also doesn't want to bring that destruction either. He cares, but the way he does it isn't in a way that he or anyone else would like for it be shown, and he wishes that he could change the things the way they are, but until then, he has to be the necessary evil. Anyways, I really enjoy your videos, and as a writer, they're also very helpful for me to learn from, so thank you!
Ok- after reading some comments I have a different impression. But what I was GONNA say was that Miguel confused me at first. The fact that he was called a vampire, his brutish fighting style, his demeanor (Like Peter B. points out, he's joyless). His grandios ethos. I was thinking. "What exactly is spider-themed about this character?" I was think maybe he isn't a spiderman bc he's actually a werewolf or a vamp or something. But, then I saw the moment you shared in the comics, where Miguel shows his claws sticking out as a way to PROVE he's spiderman. And that's when I figured that his powers manifested differently than other Spider-men. He has the body of a spider. Talons, venom, this hulking body and grizzly hair reminded me of a wolf spider or tarantula, he doesn't stick to things but uses claws (most bugs are so light that a little fiction is all they need to climb, unlike spidermen who have a gek-like stickyness to them), he's literally running as fast as a motorcycle (cuz indeed bugs are fast af) most other spidermen have the senses and reflexes of a spider (with some stregnth and invulnerability but, that's standard superhero stuff) And, really, knowing about the comics really broadens this theme- Miguel wasn't even bitten by a spider, his story doesn't follow the same as other spidermen, he doesn't have any powers associated with spidermen (as far as I know) and I think that's why, after seeing all the other spidermen, he's so hard on Miles for being an anomoly. Miguel was so much different from the other spidermen and ended up destroying a Universe. And now he's projecting that catastrophic self image onto any spiderman that's different from the status quo. It's and unspoken "you're not so different, you and I" situation, bc Miguel doesn't want to admit that he's inherently different, like Miles, so he hyperfocuses on actions and events.
ATSV has truly matched Arcane levels of depth. The fact that you can take a couple of 10 second scenes and write an entire 30 minute essay on them with extremely well crafted ideas and deep thoughts on life... Magnificent.
@@GuineaPigEveryday Pretty sure I'm being baited by an AI generated comment. It's just a random jumble of words with no coherent point. You start off by criticizing Arcane, then do a complete 180 and start criticizing ATSV, then you go on a boomer rant about Gen-Z and ADHD, then you say you think ATSV is amazing.
I guess Lyla could be seen as a present reminder of Miguel's life before he ever tried to live the life he wished he had. Despite how much of an effect losing his alternate self's family had on Miguel (and by extension, other spider-people who saw it/heard about it) Lyla is still the same witty character she was in the first film's after credits scene. She is Miguel's sidekick/assistant, the same thing she was before he lost everything. And Miguel, and other spider-people potentially, want to be the same thing they were before multiverse nonsense upended their lives. I don't know if that helps with the unanswered Lyla question, but that's what I got out of it.
This is the best breakdown of anything I have ever seen on TH-cam. This video went so in-depth. I’ve always admired Spider-Man and thus never saw the flaw before today. He does good, but his own past creates his own grief in his head over and over and over again.
Facts!! Edit: I had to really pause it when he mentioned being so laser focused on moving forward will lead you to an unfamiliar scary place, hence Earth-42. So layered
Very interesting analysis on Miguel and the spectrum of past / future focus! I found your analysis of Hobie's mindset on the past / future spectrum most interesting. In your Hobie video, you mentioned that Hobie doesn't see himself as a role model, and instead supports other people like Miles or Gwen who can serve as that inspirational / role model, which explains why he plays a supporting role instead of a central role in leading some kind of revolt against the spider society. However, it's pretty clear that the people around Hobie respect him a lot, and he naturally becomes a focal point around which other characters gather around, which begs the question - Why isn't he a central leader? Why is he a supporting character? Your point on Hobie only being focused on tearing down the past and not really having a clear view on the future beyond "you don't need all of this!" or "make your own watch" clarifies a lot of things. He could be a defacto leader in many ways, but perhaps he's self aware enough to know that while he's great at tearing down the current status quo, he doesn't have a clear vision for a better future, and thus can't spark enough idealism or inspiration in the people around him on his own. He can’t start a revolution with just a few friends that respect him for the revolutionary he is. However, when he does encounter a person like Miles, who's entirely focused on the future and is held back by the status quo, he's able to inspire and help Miles to break free of the status quo and fully embrace the forward-thinking vision that he himself doesn't have. In that sense, Miles is the idealistic beacon of hope and future focus that Hobie can’t be that directly inspires multiple characters, most notably Gwen, to believe that anything is possible and that we don’t have to be held back by the past. Miles’, and subsequently Gwen’s stand against the spider society is subsequently much more effective at convincing spideys to leave the society than if he had tried to lead the revolution himself. Notably, he doesn’t even stay behind to try and convince anyone else to leave the society, partially because he has confidence that Miles’ (and Gwen’s) stand against the society are enough to convince people to leave and partially because he’s busy assembling multiversal watches to start a revolution. This also (partially) explains why it’s Gwen who assembles the new spider band at the end of the movie and not Hobie - you’d expect at first glance that it would be Hobie, the revolutionary, leading the charge against Miguel. However, having been inspired by Miles (“One thing I’ve learnt from Miles - it's all possible”), Gwen now has the same determination and idealism that Miles has, and that makes her more inspirational as the leader of the new spider-band in leading the charge to save Miles and counter Miguel as compared to Hobie. After all, who better to lead all of Miles' friends to save him and stop Miguel and The Spot than the person who will stop at nothing and fight the entire multiverse if it means reuniting with the person she cares more about than anyone else? (There’s also the story reason that she’s a major character while Hobie is a supporting character, but I think that the way the characters are designed makes their roles feel natural even within the context of the story.) As such, Hobie is most useful as an enabler - He can't give people hope for a better future on his own, but he can inspire people who already have that hope and are trapped in the present the tools to break free of their circumstances and achieve the goals they want to achieve, who can then likewise inspire others around them. In essence, he's the perfect supporting character for more inspirational, forward oriented figures like our main protagonists at the end of the movie. I’m interested to see how the third movie develops Hobie further in this regard, maybe it will turn out that he does have some interesting ideas on what should replace the current status quo, or that he’s more future oriented than his current characterisation lets on!
It makes sense when you remember that all this time he hasn't actively resisted the spider society but instead kept his dislike towards them to himself. All this time Hobie has waited for Miles to finally appear to implement his ideals, and when he did, he supported him fully and backed him up. Only when he knew that Miles is going to turn the Society upside down, he showed his animosity ("Hobie you're not helping" "Good") Maybe Hobie is just a passive person in contrast to his loud persona as Spider-Punk. I think being Spider-Man empowers him
As far as the questions go, I think the ending of the film *can* be seen as a conclusion to Miles' arc, and you even touched on it here. Before being sent to U42, he makes a stand in his philosophy, against all the other spiders, and this final sequence puts that to the test in a major way. His perception of what he is, and what he is separate from Spiderman. When he's tied to the punching bag and threatened with his life, he's faced with a dark mirror of himself. He's notably in shock, before composing himself with a very similar expression he had just before jumping off the rocket earlier. Now set in his beliefs. Even when faced with his *worst nightmare,* when *everything* falls apart, he's *gonna do his own thing.*
As far as I'm concerned, Lyla is just an AI assistant. She does everything Miguel says but doesn't have a will of her own. Now, here's what I think is interesting: There was a time in the comics in wich Lyla kinda confesses her "feelings" towards Miguel (because he asked her to be honest) and some time later she went psycho and almost killed Miguel's gf. Eventually she got fixed and everything was ok. It's kinda common to see him command her to do something without much thinking and then regreting it afterwards. Lyla, even tho she's an IA, has an actual personality. She can be sarcastic, playful, dramatic, funny, it's not uncomon to see her mocking Miguel in varius ways while being unconditionally obedient to him, and that is because Miguel allows her to be this way. And I think that plays into his character by showing that he's not as much as an extremist as he seems. He is willing to accept a prankster secretary as much as he is willing to accept that some things cannot be changed or fixed, but when the pranks get too mean or specific changes cause entire universes to dissapear, that's when he knows he has to step in
Your thoughtful and curious approach to film analysis really fuels my desire to write stories worth studying like this. I don't comment often but I wanted to make sure you're aware that your work is appreciated. Keep it up mate!
There's a line in the movie where miles says something like "so I have to let them die because some algorithm said so?" and Lyla says gets offended and says "Hey!" which makes me assume that she is an algorithm and thats obviously why she got offended when he said that. I'm not sure why she is so human like but I'm guessing Miguel created her, and maybe her job has been to predict where or find where anomalies happen?
Peter B isn't the only spiderman there, if you rewind the scene and look carefully or pause at the right time you can see other spider people there. it would also make more sense narratively as how most of the spiders are so loyal to Miguel as they in person had seen what happens when you break the canon in person.
I think the scene is a breadcrumb to a possible overlooked truth: it’s not the canon events that destroy a universe but the presence of other spider people. The basis: earth 42 still exists. Earth 42 has no spiderman, perhaps utterly wrecking every future canon for that universe, yet…it still exists. Each dimension in the movie (and arguably, the first movie too) starts to fall apart when there are multiple spider people in the same dimension. Thus, I propose Miguel simply misunderstood the catalyst for the dimensions to collapse and his spider society is unintentionally the greatest threat to the spiderverse’s existence than any canon event.
Your final point reminded me of a really great quote from a TH-cam channel I love. “Change, after all, is neither innately benevolent or malevolent, but it sure as shittingly was the same as before.” And that’s the message both characters have to learn. Miles has to know that change can be terrible. His father dying would be a terrible change to his life and outlook, and he has to understand that actions have unforeseen consequences. Miguel, on the other hand, needs to learn that change is valuable. Without Miles, Gwen and Peter B would still be struggling with themselves and their families. Without Miles breaking the cannon, their lives would have arguably been substantially worse.
I actually cannot thank you enough for sharing this perspective about the movie. It has opened my eyes in ways that I wasn’t even considering before. These movies are amazing. Great analysis!
This is definitely one of my favorite video essays about the Spiderverse movies. It made me all the characters in a different way, and I can't wait to rewatch ATSV with this in mind. I also can't wait to see how Miguel and Miles will meet in the middle and defeat The Spot in the third movie because it really seems like it's what the writers are trying to set up.
I love that, by being a movie about Spiderman (aka a movie that discusses what it means to be Spiderman), ATSV is also a movie against that stands very strongly against fatality. It goes to say "no, Spiderman's story doesn't have to be about loss, and grief, and sacrifice, and guilt, and being stuck in the past. It can be a different story." And I think it's especially interesting because that's what the character has been struggling with for a while in the comics. Peter Parker was supposed to retire and be replaced by Ben Riley, but that didn't work out. Peter sacrificed his marriage with MJ to get Aunt May back from the dead, which most fans hated. And those problems happened because the writers and the producers don't know how to make the character change. Spiderman has to be Peter Parker, and he has to be a struggling young man, and he has to be stuck in his past mistakes. And because they don't know how to write a Spiderman that doesn't stick with those criteria, they reset him, to keep the status quo. He can't keep his marriage, he can't accept Aunt May's death, he can't grow up, he can't retire, because then he would stop following the Spiderman formula, and he would stop being Spiderman. This movie is, of course, on top of everything else, a very meta commentary about the concept of Spiderman, about what it means to be Spiderman. And what it does is expand the definition of it. Just as you said, it's not just that anyone can be behind the mask and live Peter Parker's story, it's that any story can become that of Spiderman. And that's why I believe, very strongly, that Miles' dad will survive, that Gwen will survive, that Miles will get his happy ending. Because this is a story that claims that suffering is not an intrinsic part of Spiderman.
Miles is a fresh wind for Spider-Man. While Peter's Comics, at least the main universe, are more stuck than ever in constant suffering, Miles' current run deals far more heavily with having a balanced life. Insomniac's version of them, too, with Peter actually taking a break. Spider-Man isn't just about grief and suffering at the end of the day it's about overcoming it. Shame the main comics often forget that
Oh, the whole thing about a loved one's last words being informative of their ideology is really interesting! "With great power comes great responsibility" "Just keep going" And, okay, these ones are kind of a stretch but I wanted to say them anyway: With Gwen's Peter death, he says "everything is going to be okay" (something which perfect Peter also says to miles), which is... I'm not sure how that factors in but it's definitely gotta. She's definitely haunted by her past. In the comics, Hobie's thing is "With great power comes no future." Pretty interesting stuff considering the past/future focused diagram you have there. OH AND, the a key one, apparently in the comics miguel's defining phrase is "with great responsibility, comes great guilt"? Which like. Yeah. That sure is him. Unrelated to my catchphrase analysis: the whole thing about Miles and Miguel both being right and wrong is interesting! One of my friends pointed that out. Because Miles doesn't know if he *can* save his dad (not using past data) but Miguel isn't letting anyone *try* to get new data, in a sense. Great stuff!
And Miguel's plan makes perfect sense. We don't know what will happen if we break the canon, so why risk it? Why risk the destruction of an entire universe just to save one guy? Whereas Miles is much less mature, and is more focused on "This is what I want, and I will try to get it." He tries to do both, and fails at both. He failed at nipping Spot in the bud, and he failed at respecting his family. So in the 3rd movie, he might get better at doing both, or he might focus on one or the other.
The dying words for Miguel's wasn't actually "with great responsibility comes great guilt" (but fits the bill). If we're talking the 90's run, I like to think its the exchange that happens near the end of the run when a stranger dies in his arms. "I knew it... I knew you were a hero still... Wait til I tell Lorean..." The context is important, but spoiler for the 90's run. The stranger was the man who saved Miguel in his fall and gave him the material for his cape. He was the first who truly believed Spiderman had returned. But spreading propaganda later turns the public against Spiderman. Miguel spotted a burning Spiderman effigy which turned out to be a real person, he put out the fire but couldn't save the victim and he died in his arms. I really like that his dying phrase comes from a stranger. Not a caretaker, not a friend, not someone he personally knows. It was just a man he inspired and who believed him to be a hero to the end. The Lorean part is a nice detail. Even though he was a nobody in Miguel's life, he was important to someone else. A slice into his life. Miguel responds to his death with "I never even knew your name..." -The fact Miguel still has that cape even though he doesn't use it, makes me think a variation did happen-
Oh, that's actually really interesting! And sad. Additional little thought I had: in the comics I'm pretty sure Gwen's Peter death only has "I just wanted to be special like you, Gwen", with "everything is going to be okay" being a Spiderverse addition. Additionally in Gwenverse she finally realised that those words haunted her and that she kept on trying to *stop people ending up like her*, which is like. Ow. Not sure where exactly that fits in all or this but it sure is something. (One more thing: I love how the line "you're like me.", completely pivotal to Spiderverse, comes from a spider girl run? Idk rly I dont follow the comics that much)
@@NeuroPean-df3oh Actually "you're like me." comes from the line that Uncle Aaron tells Miles right before he dies in Miles's original comics a decade and a bit ago, and he says "you're just like me." but it's shortened a bit to make more sense for the movies.
Also you'll notice the common trope among the spider people introducing themselves throughout both movies by saying 'You know the rest' at the end of their intros. Which implies that we as the viewers have heard the story so many times that we already have the fate of any spiderperson set in stone or 'canon'. The whole point of Miles is to break the idea of us or the spider society knowing the rest/predetermining his fate but rather him taking his story into his own hands and writing it his own way.
I think another thing that’s really interesting that I’ve just come to realize is how much Peter B. himself conflicts with Miguel’s logic of fixing the past and destroying what he believes shouldn’t happen. Of course there’s the intermission in the chase scene when Peter B. talks to Miles. Yes, it’s there to expand on Peter B. and Miles’ relationship and yes, it gives us an opportunity to see how Peter B. has grown after the first movie, but one of the most memorable things he says in his talk is especially important from a plot perspective. “Bad things are going to happen. It’s what makes us who we are. But good things are going to happen too, y’know? Like YOU happened… Like SHE happened.” He uses Miles and Mayday as two of his examples in his life, he even specifically doesn’t mention MJ either. In other words, amongst all the bad things that plague his life, the unmistakably GOOD things are both things that shouldn’t have happened. Peter was never supposed to meet Miles (and hell Miles wasn’t even supposed to be Spiderman), nor was he supposed to reconcile with MJ, nor was he supposed to have Mayday. It’s only because Kingpin unintentionally brought Peter to 1610 that Peter got to meet someone he shouldn’t have met and have a child he shouldn’t have had. So Peter B., while still trying to connect with Miles in this situation, is also telling us that “what SHOULDN’T happen still CAN happen.” It’s just that even he is taking his words at face value and doesn’t realize the deeper implications that they may have.
Miguel isn't a "spider man" as well. He is quite different. So both Miguel and Miles are quite similar in that regard. They are similar in that they are quite different, if that makes sense.
Definitely does. Remember when Miles asked him if he even was really spiderman? The most hostile person to Miles in regards to being spiderman is the least Spiderman of the group. Irony, right? You gotta love good writing... They really know what they're doing.
I think Miles doesn't only have the "keep moving forward" card: he also has his mother's advice on not letting anyone else define him or his capabilities (by telling him he doesn't belong wherever).
These videos are some of the most insightful, interesting, and exciting analyses of good stories I think I've ever encountered. Your comments on themes, motifs, repeated dialogue and how many questions you ask afterwards, they're inspiring and indicative of a truly curious and intelligent watcher. Your commentary makes me want to progress with my own drafts and go back to analyze what I really want to say in my art, what is at the heart of why I write and draw. Really good job you've done with your channel. edit: my thoughts on LYLA are also incomplete, but one line that really stood out to me was Miles' (paraphrased) "We're just supposed to let people die because some algorithm says so? You realized how messed up that is, right?" Throughout the story LYLA is the one providing statistics, telling Gwen when the next canon event will be, explaining how everything works, even Miguel refers to this concept of "canon events" or the "arachnohumanoid polymultiverse" in terms of a set of data being interpreted (surely by LYLA): a "model". In this video, you mentioned the risk of possibility, the naivety of taking a leap of faith every single time-the *statistical likelihood* of you falling flat on your face eventually. While I cannot yet make a thesis, I can provide this: I think LYLA's significance has to do with finding reasons for things happening, some existential or multiversal cause vs. effect. Like I said, she's interpreting data-past events-and making a model that guides characters, mostly Miguel, forward. I think she too could be placed on this spectrum you've created, and she would be somewhere in the leftmost half. She is also trying to restore the status quo, she gives the others the means and the information to do so. Whether this information is flawed, whether her model is truly representative of how the multiverse operates, I believe is the crux of "is everything actually possible?"
According to this (really interesting) take, Hobie could possibly be portrayed as an antithesis to Lyla. He follows his own anti-establishment "gut' to provide our protagonist(s) the means to change the status-quo.
OMG YES THE MIGUEL VIDEO right as I'm on Part 2 on my insane Miguel rant for my Tumblr blog, which at this point has been cooking since May 31st (french release). Regarding Peter B's "you're the only Spiderman who isn't funny", I understand it as Peter B applying the canon traits enforced by the Spider-Society - which interestingly puts Miguel as an anomaly as well. However, I do think Miguel is funny, it's in a different way: the way he yells "you're both terrible mentors" at Jess and Peter B, the way he goes "which is a stupid name" about the way he named the Spiderverse, how he calls Tom Holland's Spiderman the "little nerd from Earth 19999" when he himself is the epitome of a nerd as an engineer (see: how he names the Spiderverse, like Miguel please, "arachno-poly-multiverse". Really, Miguel), how he reacts to LYLA's cheeky behaviour... Miguel is 100% funny. He's simply not in the right headspace to be the usual Quippy Spidey, because he's very depressed and overworked and it makes him more abrasive. However, he remains funny in the way he reacts to things and remains sarcastic (as he is in the comics). I also think Miguel is so triggered by Miles (because you can't tell me he wasn't triggered and having a mental breakdown during the train chase. He was breaking down there) because Miles, like you said, goes for what he wants. Miguel went for what he wanted, and his initial cavalier attitude in regard to Time and Space shenanigans led to horrible consequences that fixed the whole "what you HAVE to do" vs "what you WANT to do" thing he has with Miles. Overall, Miguel needs A LOT of healing and forgiveness, which is gonna require a lot of effort and bravery from others and, more importantly, from himself. He NEEDS to do that to move forward and find himself in a healthier situation. At his current point, he's basically pulling everyone down whenever he sees someone trying to move forward, having different views (see his dismissal of Hobie), or even questioning his Spider-Society system. I am sadly familiar with someone like that and he has done a lot of damage to our friendship with that behaviour. Miguel NEEDS to move forward and heal, if not for everybody around him, then for his own mental health.
Bumping the request for Schnee to cover Andor. There’s at least 20 videos worth of interesting topics to deep dive in Andor. Character comparison between Hobie and Saw Guerrera up first?
So... if Miles isn't "Spider-Man" anymore, what's his new alias? Kid Arachnid? Spy-D? Spin? Something all-together new? GOSH, even the movies can't escape this problem! But, seriously, this analysis was so deep, it blew my mind and I loved it! Major compliments.
I always thought they included Peter B literally just so they could skip over any "and how do we know you're not lying??", both an in-character choice by Miguel for any skeptical spider-totems that might've heard his story, and a meta choice for the audience too.
i think it's really interesting how most other spider-people are artists in some form: artists, musicians, photographers (it's reasonable to assume that since Beter is an aged up spiderman, he must have gone through all the motions of spiderman, and so, would've been into photography at some point), and Miguel (from what i know) is almost exclusively a stem guy. it kinda gives him a "stronger, faster, better" mentality, and reinforces his capability and desire to fix things by destroying them, or to build things to destroy other things.
A balance between the future and past is the answer, to live in the present. We've seen the consequences of Miguel's actions that made him cautious of changing the future, the dangerously uncertain future that miles ended up in wasn't exactly right either. Too much of anything is bad, which is why both Miles and Miguel were wrong, with the extreme example of no turning back being spot. That's probably what the third movie will lean towards, since the characters are still in the opposite sides of the spectrum. They're still good guys at heart with good intentions, so they will eventually meet in the middle, it's like Miles' mom's advice to move forward without forgetting the past.
Wow, at first I totally thought cb Miguel and atsv Miguel looked very different, but now I'm starting to notice that their character designs are actually pretty similar!
This movie.. well, actually, this whole trilogy (at least until now) is so much deeper than I could ever imagine. So great to see videos like this one revealing so much meaning of a greatly constructed story!
This video brought tears to my eyes as someone who, not unlike Miles, has built my life around working towards a more just future for all, one most of the people around me believe is impossible just because they haven’t seen it done before. Thank you. 💜
Miguel the type of guy to want to forcefully fix your problems when you vent to him. If you don’t want that, he wouldn’t give you the time of day otherwise. I kid, but I feel this sentiment is very present in how he formed his beliefs and the people he associates with.
Definitely, there's a big difference between the listening and the fixing reaction when people have problems, both can come from a place of sympathy but they can very easily backfire
I've been reading the comments and it got the thinking about the "doing both" thing Something interesting that some people have pointed out is that whenever a character tries to "do both" they fail Miles can't do the cakes, Gwen can't be spider-woman and the police chief's daughter, Patriv can't save his girlfriend and the police chief Or, Patriv couldn't have done that... without Miles, without Help But I think that might be what that will become, about asking for help and not doing things alone because spider-man has always been trying to juggle too many things at once, and has almost always been alone And since this is a series that revolves around the concept of many spider-heroes and traveling along the multiverse, I believe that the "do both" will end up as some kind of message about asking for help and being more connected with other spider-heroes, and other worlds too but that's just a theory! A Fil- wait, right, that's not a thing anymore
Yeah Mig's Mom is a piece of work. Also I think Peter B was there in the backstory to try and help stop the collapse, probably were more Spideys running around there at the time too.
Whenever Peter B thinks about the collapse caused from "Canon Events" you can see that he immediately looks to his daughter. He wants to move forward, and supports Miles fully... but hes scared of losing his family that he finally has. And hes even more torn because he knows its Miles that gave him that gift.
How does she as well as his universe exist without miles?
@@Memelord1117 what do you mean?
@@poggerz6567 He's wondering how could Mayday and Peter B's universe keep existing if in a sense Mayday's inception was thanks to Miles. And he's probably thinking the multiverse thingy is working like Back to the Future style time traveling, where affecting things from the past can cause shit to happen and make future events or even timelines to cease to exist
@@granmastersword No. What I meant, was that in the movie, the only reason Peter B had Mayday was because of miles, and if he's an anomaly, how does she exist, if her own existence was influenced by said, anomaly.
@@Memelord1117because Miguel is wrong.
Miguel has fangs, claws, and stuff cause he got his powers when he was spliced with the dna of a spider. He didn’t get bit by a spider, he is literally 50% spider.
Sorta like how miles is divided between the two dimensions?
I wouldn’t say 50 percent, more like a solid 15, maybe 20 percent. Mostly human with animalistic features
@@BlueBlazeKingfair enough tbh because the features are small but yea he’s just 50 percent for some reason in the comics, i find it cool tho
@@kvngjaygamez2570 He's 50% because anything less creates a mutated humanoid mess. Miguel ended up extremely lucky really, his co-worker intended on murdering him. But 50% DNA and overloading the machine ended up being perfect splicing.
I really enjoy Miguel didn't celebrate his powers like Peter and instead immediately went "I'm a freak!"
@@TheLivelovelaugh165 ahh that’s the reason? I remember the earlier tests resulting in the mutated monster but didn’t know it was because of the spider dna being less than 50%. That’s interesting.
My favorite response from Miguel has to be when he learns his claws retract when he touches his own body and proceeds to say along the lines of “if they didn’t retract then going to the bathroom was going to be an adventure”
I love how Hobie tries to convince Miles not to join by ALSO telling him he's not like the other Spiderpeople. "Why do you want to join? You got a good life, a good family."
From Hobies perspective, Miles is a kid trying to join and orphanage while having 2 loving parents. That extends to Gwen as well, Hobie lets her crash at his place. But she has a home. He points out that she left her Hoodie at his place, meaning it isn't her home. Come and get it and bring it home. She makes a point to say she stayed there often, but Hobie isn't letting her get comfortable.
@@CornBreadtm1from Hobie’s perspective, he sees the spider family of sorts as a cult.
@@Suited_Nat it is a cult. Canon events are ritual sacrifices.
@@Suited_Natthey call it the Spider Society, but that name isn't wrong tbh
@@CornBreadtm1I think that was just him poking fun at her and Miles as he called her Gwendy when he said all that and said are those my chucks he doesn't mind her staying as long as she needs to either we know this because Miles ask him why he's there he replies looking out for my drummer is all so he's just being kind and poking fun at them from time to time not wanting to kick her out and go home knowing her situation
Miguel is different. Different to all the Spider people. He isn't funny, his powers are different, his priorities are different. This is important in the movie, because of his confrontation with Miles. He says Miles doesn't belong there, doesn't fit in, but in great irony, he doesn't fit in either.
Yeah, despite Miguel's belief of "Canon Events" He doesn't follow or experience any of them. He didn't lose his uncle (Pretty sure he doesn't even _have_ one), he wasn't close to his police captain, he wasn't bit by a spider. His powers are completely different from any other Spider-Man. Miguel is just as much of an Anomaly as Miles.
@@TheRedMan77Miguel isn't an anomaly, he's well established, you do not understand what an anomaly is, Miles is an anomaly because he got bitten by the spider from another universe, if he got bitten by the spider in his universe, he won't be an anomaly, so yeah
@@bradwhite5884 Okay but, Miguel said that _every_ Spider-Man goes through the Canon Events. He didn't, so obviously he's not normal right? Miles is still more of a 'Real Spider-Man' than him by his own definition, seeing as Miles has gone through Canon Events where he hasn't. You get where I'm coming from right?
@@TheRedMan77 We don't know much of Miguel and became Spiderman after Peter from his universe who's probably retired long before his time tbh, just think, Miguel is from the future for one universe, so who knows tbh
the miles we know isn't belong among the spidermans bkz he is not one of the miles moralles who should have the spider powers but miquel still has a world and he is the original spiderman in his universe so he BELONGS to the place where he is. when talks about "belong here" he mentions specificly about the miles we know
Miguel and Gabriel? Like the archangels? Maybe their mother wants them to be that perfect version she imagines. Has he inherited some of those ideas?
yeah i was wondering about this too (but im too ignorant on angelology to go further than asking the question lol)
@@schnee1 I was thinking that maybe in her mother eyes, Miguel may be misled of the path she thought was better, kinda like a fallen angel (like Satan is suppossed to be). And to cope with it, Miguel has tried to 'fix his errors'. I also think his mother had a similar way of coping with her errors (?).
(im rlly ignorant in angelogy as well)
I don't think Miguel is an angel
@@mikedrxpMiguel is an angel, it’s just a Spanish name for micheal or mika’il (Arabic)
Saint Peter
I think an important thing to remember about Miles two cakes is that when both cakes get to the party both are messed up. And Pav says “I can do both” about saving his girlfriend and the Inspector, but he actually couldn’t. Without Miles one of the people Pav wanted to save would have died.
I think Beyond will show that you can “do both” but not alone. Miles will need the help of the other Spider People that he’s friends with. He may even end up teaming up with Prowler Miles as well. Miles isn’t afraid to go his own way, but maybe he doesn’t have to do it alone.
This is going to be happen 100%
If all this boils down to in the end is the power of friendship, I'll be very disappointed. Some flavor of this seems very likely to happen, but I hope we can expect a more nuanced outcome.
@@AllUpOnsI mean, it will be solved in group as teased by the new faction Gwen leads, so it's very likely someone is going to say "you don't have to do it/this alone" but idk if I would still call it just another "power of friendship" ending
imo the "POF" endings are a problem for the lack of detail on what they are saying, they say nothing or little, spider verse already earns the differentiation with the specificity of the gradient "fix problems but stay fixed on the past" of the spiders vs the "just keep moving forward regardless of anything" of spot
the "I can do both" makes it a non POF in my book
@AllUpOns13
I think it's less "power of friendship" and more of a "no man is a island". Having a community to have your back is kinda the reason humans have gotten so fat and survived so long.
This makes so much sense omg
what I love about miguel is how he takes “with great power comes great responsibility” to the extreme. how he handle the spider society, how he treats miles, how he treats himself. his spider powers are even more extreme than the other spidermen turning him into this vampire esque spiderman. he is such a perfect foil to miles, him and spot are really.
It goes deeper than that. Miguel can be thought as the first "Miles Morales". He was the first Spiderman to not be a Peter Parker variant and carve his own unique story (which is why his canon events don't show up in the movie). He's also the second Spiderman in his timeline (hence Spiderman 2099). Miguel's suit is even described to be "black and red" in the first comics, but it appears blue due to the color inker misreading "black base and blue shadows."
The main difference is Miguel is jaded and got his powers well into adulthood.
His actual phrase is with great power comes great grief if I'm actually remembering that right. It kinda fits with his movie counterpart too
@@mochii813His phrase from the comics is actually “With great power, comes great guilt”
@@TheLivelovelaugh165It's less inker mistake and just the aesthetics of a cyberpunk future. If he was conceptualized today, he'd be neon pink instead of blue.
@@mups4016 He actually did get a new costume a couple years ago in the comics and its mostly white and red I believe?
I think I slightly disagree about Spot and a couple of his lines. He's future focused, but ONLY as recompense for the past such that Miles can suffer as he suffered. He acts with reckless abandon for "self-improvement" but only for the purpose of destroying the enemy from his past. What do you do when you want to fix that agonizing hole in your past, but you're not good enough to do it? He feels his entire life is just be the weird holes guy with no family, while Miles gets to be a proper spiderman. I wonder if that's related to how Miguel "isnt like the others" and also thinks its unfair Miles gets to be spiderman. Spot is right, we all have holes. So what is his answer? Fill it with more holes. Lean in to the tragedy. Go beyond allowing it to happen like Miguel, and go beyond trying to keep going and get better like Miles. Fuel your tragedy so much that it consumes the world. Become big enough of a problem that everyone will take you seriously, literally become the canon event that they dread. This is...Spots version of "doing both"
yeah that's fair, i could also see pairing him with where miles is at when he's talking to 42 mom about finding union between his past and future -- but for spot its still in this destructive way? i def gotta think about it more
So he’s bipolar then
oh that's not even talking about how spot's "final form" is akin to Mile's "no expectations" / great expectations essay spray paint thing. no expectations, meaning anything is possible? im really not sure honestly
I feel like this IS part of being future facing. It's a phase.
Without revealing too much about my own psychology and experiences there is a part of moving forward I almost never see talked about. No longer being bound by your past is not a binary step of either you're caught up in the past or you have reconciled it and it's now done. What happened to me and happens to so many when they start to make progress towards letting go of your past is that you actively distance the past from your motivation. As you say you now suddenly seek 'newness' to an almost reckless degree and refuse to even acknowledge your past. That's where Spot is. But (from experience) that is also just a step in the process that's not sustainable.
I can't tell you where that journey goes I'm still very much on it and figguring it out but your experiences in the past DO shape you and that's also a good thing. By distancing yourself from that fully you're also denying all the good things you learned and are kind of lying to yourself that your world view isn't still shaped by what you experienced. And Spot hasn't gotten there yet. The danger is that he's so powerful reckless that he might detsroy himself and others before he can get to that realization.
@@NeuroPean-df3ohooooh great observation!
I like how you mention that because Miles' story is different, it truly embodies the ideal that it really can be anyone behind the mask. Stan Lee literally said the reason he created Spider-Man with a mask was so that ANY kid could imagine themselves behind the mask and not a single kid has the same backstory.
I love this comment so much ❤
And the comics played into it too. "I know why Jameson doesn't like me! It's because I'm BLACK!"
"I, he, he wears a mask all the time! There's never any skin showing to know what race-"
"I'm just kidding I'm not black." Like a moral Deadpool
agreed
So about Lyla, she's like JARVIS. A sentient AI who has a mind and personality of her own. Regardless of if she may or may not get a character development arc of her own, its important to remember that she's ultimately always in one way or another a reflection of her creator, who is Miguel. He intentionally created her personality, her sassy quips and comebacks, and her functions & mannerisms, to be the way that it is for a reason.
Oh snap you're right... Miguel isn't funny so Lyla does it for him. :O
she reminds me of miss minutes from the TVA since she can pop up in different dimensions
In the comics it was his girlfriend that created Lyla for him so maybe its the same for movie miguel
@@martaleja9279 That's cute, but also a little depressing... 😢
The intent of Lyla is being a foil assistant to Miguel. She's the one who constantly tries to defy and make him think beyond his choices, one who questions and needs to be against some of his ideas in order to make the correct ones. Also so he doesn't lose his sanity or falls back into a drug addiction according to his first origin story before he became Spider-man.
Off-Note: I like how Miguel's story being a Mirror to Miles. While Miles is eager to prove he is Spider-Man (and some people questioning his validity on it too), Miguel also faces People questioning his validity as Spider-Man.
- Cops thinking he's a bad guy
- Gwen asking who he is, then not caring
- Peter saying how different he is to other Spider-Men
- Miles questioning if he's sure he's even Spider-Man
miles story had nothing to do with socalled being spiderman, thats just a name .His story is to prove can is a man that can take care of himself and family
@@IronheartvsMiles
Did you WATCH the first movie? It’s literally him living up to the name of Spider-Man and being worthy of it. Finding that strength to take up such a heavy role
@@Anthony_Caliber the whole movie of ATSV is about standing out and going against the norm and doing your own thing and being different but did Miles really do that if he did something everybody (audience) could get behind and sided with him and shit on Miguel?
Also I love how Spider-Man fans say Miguel is completely wrong and unreasonable but would hate any spider-man adaptation in which uncle Ben lived and didn’t die, and fans wanted MCU Peter to suffer consequences and loss and not have it all/the easy way out, and would NWH and PS4 be as popular as they were if Aunt May didn’t die?
A lot of people that just shit on Miguel are blinded by their emotional hormones and lack any rational intelligence and can’t consider the other side and only see black and white and can’t see that neither side is completely right or wrong
Spider-Man fans do not want to be wrong and always want to be right and on the winning side
Miguel is meant to represent the Spider Man fandom as a whole. directors pointed out that this idea of the canon acts as a critique of spiderfans who act as though all Spider-Men have to go through the same "canon" moments. And that any adaptation that doesn't is "an anomaly" or wrong and is treated harshly. It sounds like Spider-Man fans are projecting their self absorbed and insecure demands onto Miguel and don’t want to be wrong
the whole movie of ATSV is about standing out and going against the norm and doing your own thing and being different but did Miles really do that if he did something everybody (audience) could get behind and sided with him and shit on Miguel?
Also I love how Spider-Man fans say Miguel is completely wrong and unreasonable but would hate any spider-man adaptation in which uncle Ben lived and didn’t die, and fans wanted MCU Peter to suffer consequences and loss and not have it all/the easy way out, and would NWH and PS4 be as popular as they were if Aunt May didn’t die?
A lot of people that just shit on Miguel are blinded by their emotional hormones and lack any rational intelligence and can’t consider the other side and only see black and white and can’t see that neither side is completely right or wrong
Spider-Man fans do not want to be wrong and always want to be right and on the winning side
Miguel is meant to represent the Spider Man fandom as a whole. directors pointed out that this idea of the canon acts as a critique of spiderfans who act as though all Spider-Men have to go through the same "canon" moments. And that any adaptation that doesn't is "an anomaly" or wrong and is treated harshly. It sounds like Spider-Man fans are projecting their self absorbed and insecure demands onto Miguel and don’t want to be wrong
People are so caught up in calling out the already established inconsistencies in the canon event idea that they don’t understand or acknowledge the thematic significance of canon events as a representation of “necessary story beats (especially for Spider-Man)” that they for years want to happen all the time but can’t admit they were wrong or were challenged by that.
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674Agreed, neither side are either right or wrong, its what we know what is a good choice to take or follow what's important, also no one knows what it is to be a hero and sacrifices said hero takes, the canon events can apply to all superheroes being trapped in a cave building an exosuit to fight while trying to prevent metal shrapnel heading to your heart, go through a process to get a super serum into your body to make you strong to fight in the world war only to go missing in the mid of battle only to be frozen in time, or your parents sent you to another world as your planet gets blown up and landed in the countryside to be raised by a farming family or witnessing your family being murdered in the alley way after leaving the theatre, these could also considered as canon events, so yeah
One thought I have had recently about Miguel, is that his plan is the opposite of Kingpins in the last movie:
- Kingpin lost his family, so he would destroy the world to get them back, undoing his mistake.
- Miguel lost his family, so he would encase the world in a protective web, keeping others from making his mistake.
In both cases, it is an obssesive, outward and destructive approach, that falls apart under closer examination.
The huge thing about the ending scene is that like, Miles was told he wasn't supposed to even be spiderman, and his spider was supposed to be for a different world entirely, but that's the first time he actually sees it. It was easy to cast it aside when it was Miguel yelling at him about it, but when he actually sees it for himself, you can see the shift in his eyes to the "Oh fck, I caused this-"
OH YEAH
Yeah but miles didn’t cause it at all. Kingpin took the spider
I think its less, "I caused this." and more "this is what I could have been."
Im gonna bet the spider that bit (our) Spider Miles was actually meant for the one that became Prowler Miles.
@@jakegray1723 Yeah that was all but explicitly stated.
Lyla theory:
Lyla is a reflection of Miguel. She is what he was before. In the after credit scene of Into the Spiderverse we see Miguel begining his journey across dimensions. He's obviously way more like peter at this point, represented by him calling the watch a Goober. It also may hint to him watching the events of the first movie from a 3rd person perspective.
But what I want to focus on is that Lyla makes a joke by poking fun at the name Goober, and yet in the future she makes fun of Miguel for being so serious all the time. Miguel was funny, he was optimistic, and Lyla reflects that, but she's always been the side of him that isn't expressed outright. She uses insult humor when he is making a joke. She tries to get him to lighten up when he's being a buzzkill. Lyla is Miguel's repressed thoughts.
I like to think he created Lyla as an image of what his daughter was to him. Like you said it’s representing what he was before and is what he thinks his daughter would have been like if she grew up.
@@CrackDadlyla existed in the post credit scene of the first movie, where they show him travelling thru the multiverse for the first time. He never had any daughter and probably wasn’t even thinking about one when he built her.
@@koibubbles3302 yes AFTER the hole created by a he collider. So she already existed before the first one. All of the spideys did.
Lyla is the devil on Miguel's shoulder. She will be revealed as the secret villain of the 3rd movie.
@@CrackDad yeah, I know. That doesn’t disprove my point.
To me, Miles' story sounds like a "kid decides to fix generational trauma" story. Something I'm working towards, and yeah, you do end up defined by your past, but you also strive to make the future better (and sometimes it makes living in the Now hard)
"If you don't tell someone what's going on, you're going to snap."
"That's not what someone who's fine would say that. Say 'I'm great, thanks. How are you?'"
It's ironic nobody seems to be talking about their issues despite all of them having shared trauma experiences. I want Miles to slap everyone to get better, but he's the only one who didn't experience all that trauma
I agree
Yes i love this. The past happened and running away doesn't help the healing. But healing and progress is so possible. We accept the past and it's affects while still moving forward (you've got this friend
Yes, this ! Totally agree.
This. The one bittersweet thing for me about this movie, is not having or recognizing something like this in my generation. Both movies resonate incredibly with me now, and truly have set me in a healthier mind space. Such great stories, with such a positive outlook on the future, without negative negating the past. I love it
Watching this video it really reminded me of when Mary Jane said “there’s no plan for being someone like you. You just have to make the right adjustments at halftime”. I think that’s the story they’re trying to get across.
Ok but can we talk about something here?
Yes, Uncle Ben was a great father figure, and after he was killed, by that time most versions of the spider-people were learning how to do their spiderman thing and internalizing what he said completely alone.
Completely. Alone.
People alone during or after a tragedy aren't in the best of states, don't necessarily take away or internalize the proper things, and in general possess lingering trauma.
You know who doesn't have that? Miles.
Yes, he comes from a mixed race family, but his father is CONSTANTLY trying to connect with him, and his mother is FIERCELY focused on him no matter what they do - They are a family. When the collider incident happens and he witnesses someone give their life for him, it's less than a day or two until he finds himself a support network in the form of the spider people.
These traumas that were inflicted on the rest of the spider-folk *arent'*, with Miles, purely by virtue of him having a support network in both lives to balance things out. The spider-people were there for him when his parents couldn't be, and Uncle Aaron AND his parents were there for him when his uncle discovered what was going on. Uncle Aaron, a criminal, was looking up to Miles because he was doing what was 'right and just'. Because the circumstances that led to the tragedy and that turned Miles INTO spider-man weren't because he was turning a blind eye to crime, it was because he was trying to do the right thing. As a hero, he needs no other reason. He didn't need to be guilted by Ben, he didn't need to hold everything in, he was "On his way." He just "Needed to keep going."
Miles doesn't need to atone for anything, and that's exactly why he stands in opposition to EVERYTHING Miguel stands for. The collider? Not his fault. Aaron's death? Not his choices. Even the Spot is a hilarious analogue for the original criminal that shot and killed Ben, because not only did Miles not have anything to do with him, Spot also chose of his own free will to stay and try to collect things instead of run away.
From a writing perspective, Miles Morales in the Spider-verse movies are a huge take-that to the comic book artists that continually pile misery on Spider-people for no other reason than pure drama, and he's also a giant middle finger to the people that think a Spider-man story requires certain tropes and themes such as atonement.
I'm getting a little wordy here, but my last little thought: "With great ability comes great accountability." Accountability has a WILDLY different connotation than responsibility. Responsibility is oftentimes read as "Duty". It can be a solemn oath, but typically the vibe is that for whatever reason, a character with responsibilities MUST see to them no matter what. Accountability is a much more neutral connotation, however; less calling, and more watching if that makes sense. Having accountability and being accountable, unlike responsibility, is more about managing and being careful with yourself. There's no "Calling" to accountability, there's "Looking out for yourself."
tl;dr Miles is, unironically, the most emotionally sane and available spider-man to ever exist.
Very good point. But this is also where the story becomes interesting. Miles is the emotionally most healthy Spiderman but he's also immature and naive and still thinks relentless forward momentum will fix everything. Miguel is maybe the most emotionally damaged Spiderman but he also has real experience what damage relentless forward optimism can do. And that's also real.
I really hope that movie 3 becomes about what they can learn from each other instead of the simpler "young hero teaches old villain why he's wrong!" ☺️
@@notrelevant6702 At the end of the day everyone has something to learn from anyone, even the most unexpected people
HOLY SH*T you got a really good analysis here. It’s true that Miles is not actually Spider-Man, or at least he doesn’t follow what other spider-people have to traditionally go through. He has no reason for atonement, as the tragedies that have to do with him are not his fault, and there was always people there to emotionally support him whenever he had to deal with his burdens. And on top of all that he’s got even cooler spider powers than the typical Spider-Man, making him the goat fr ☕️😌
This was great!!!!
Indeed, my friend. Miles does not need therapy!
Miguel is one of the most compelling Antagonists that I've seen in any form of media over the past few years. I think what makes him so compelling is that I could totally see almost everyone fully agreeing with his goals and his actions if the movie chose to make him the main character/protagonist, now of course you could do that with a ton of different antagonists but with Miguel if they chose to make the movie from his perspective I feel like the writers wouldn't need to show Miles' actions in a negative light and make Miles seem like a villain if that makes any sense. In the end there is just so much about this movie that is different and uniquely compelling, I feel like this movie is going to be pretty influential when it comes to character driven stories which in all honesty this movie deserves because it's a masterpiece.
You are 100% correct. Other than the few "off" moments like body slamming some kid, if the we only knew the story from Miguel's perspective most people would definitely side with him. Miles wouldn't be a villain, people would sympathise but for the most part I think they would still be on Miguel's side if we only saw it from his perspective.
You are right, A villain would sacrifice the world for his loved ones, a hero would sacrifice his loved ones for the world. From Miguel perspective, Miles is willingly killing his whole universe just to safe his father, making him a villain in Migel's story.
It would be definitively intriguing to have the story told from his perspective, we get a fair amount of that tbh but imagine if his pov was the only one we had, how the audiences would react
@@Aramanelanow I want to see Miguel story
@@jnkg2293it’s interesting because they’ve shown us that side already. That is kingpin’s arc
I dont think youre giving Hobie enough credit. The stuff he steals is heavily implied to be used to build the watches he and Gwen have at the end of the movie.
He recognises his own strengths and limitations. He is smart enough to reverse engineer the watches, and places them with the people who have a more solid vision for what they want the future to look like.
He knows his part ti play and helps others play theirs
I like to think Hobie sees people who can create a better future. He struggles with it himself, but will assist in any way he can simply because the old model is outdated. Reminds me of a quote I heard saying that you want your children / students to exceed you in every way. It's his way of healing. He is like my father in a way. I know my father would be overjoyed to see me, a Latinx woman, not only in a position where I can comfortably provide for myself and control my own career, but be the first to graduate with a bachelor's in my immediate family. He's closer to Gwen's dad in ideologies, but has life experience like Hobie.
i thought that's exactly what he was trying to say about hobie, i mean he obviously has a bunch of respect for hobie as a deep layered side character, if you saw his video on hobie. i thought he was just saying despite all the cool things hobie can do, he understands his limitations and know someone else (gwen) is more fit to be a leader. (exactly what you said) if this makes any sense
Hobie says all these things he Doesn't believe in, and at the movie's end he shows what he Does believe in.
Hobie believes in Gwen, he believes in Miles, he believes in young people fighting for their future.
Agreed. It's not that he doesn't look to the future, so much as that his vision of the future is so explicitly community oriented. It's antithetical to his worldview to see himself as the hero, as the main character in his world, so of course his whole goal is to equip others to freely join together to be the change he believes in.
why i think he didn’t go ful revolution earlier is there was no spark no major moral wrong less radical spider people could symphathise with which will directly put them in conflict with their current comfortable postitions. revolutions can’t start when people are comfortable to conform. aswell revolution can’t be started by one person one main character. hobie isn’t a main character and is against the concept of a main character. that’s kinda the intresting part about a multiverse because we the viewer gets stuck in the main character side character mode set which collapse when in a multiverse everyone is a main character. every one has significance .
The reason Peter B was in his universe is that he was helping to try and stop the universe collapse. You see other spidermen also in that scene to help. You also see on Peter Bs wrist the watch. Which plays into the fact of why so many Spidermen follow him because some have seen it with their own eyes
yeah i even think that for a very brief moment spinneret swung infront of Miguel, you basically cant see her because the camera pans over to Miguel and Peter in that moment
Wouldn't that insinuate that the spider society came before this event then? Why would he have created the society before the collapse of that universe?
@@brookeelliott7549 It could imply that this happened when he was replacing "other" Miguel from that universe. The first movie's post credits scene show that one of the first spidermen that joined the society was 60s spiderman, so he had this plan of needing more spiderpeople from the beginning.
That scene with Beter could probably be some time in the society's early stages, where there were fewer members, meaning Beter is somewhat considered to be a veteran among the spider people
@@brookeelliott7549 Yeah. Simple after the collider event he could’ve just said we need a team to prevent stuff like this from happening because the multiverse was insanely close to being destroyed
Have they established the spider society back then?
How the hell do writers create stories like this with so many different layers? It’s like rocket science to me. Seriously how?!
Talent. Human creativity. Magic for me too... But there are things where you and I excel at too. This is just theirs.
Kinda like when I see the inside of a smartphone. How did humans even come up with all these things...
Talent. My imaginative ass wouldn't even think of something as well written as this.
Big thinkin'
I don’t doubt that the writers pushed their storytelling skills to their absolute limit, agonizing over all these little details and how to incorporate them into the final piece. However, I’m willing to bet that at least a handful of the observations and points brought up here in the video weren’t actually on the team’s minds at the time of writing. When you dedicate as much time and effort towards analysis as schnee here, you can come up with - and support! - any number of interpretations, all equally valid. To me, that last part is a really big indicator of just how great this movie is: if your film can continue to generate such varied, in-depth, and thought-provoking analysis for months after its initial showing, you know you have a quality story.
Time. Dedication. Most importantly, knowledge.
There are a lot of elements to storytelling that have been used for generations. Simply reading about them, analyzing them, learning them, can help you apply these rules/ideas/tactics/etc.
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This video essay contextualizes what makes this miles so distinct. Such a tasteful way of separating Miles’ story from the classic Peter story. I’m very for this
I know!
This is why I disliked No Way Home so much, the MCU was making something new with Peter, but then NWH just went "screw that actually!" and just destroyed it, it's so sad
THANK YOU! Ive felt this way about No Way Home for years and i though i was the only one
domapine go brrrr
no seriously, watching your content after watching hours of video essays just rehashing and reiterating same ideas without any actual analysis of the movie (any movie, in fact) feels like a breath of the freshest air
WORDD
No shot you're talking about efap
Garbage take
Yeah
Wow what an abusive mom.
Huh, Peter triggered him twice by bringing up mothers.
His parents are so bad 😭
@@shanicek5188Maybe that's how Miguel ended up the way he did. Miles, Gwen and Peter had loving parents and Miguel didn't. This causes Miguel to hate himself because he doesn't have the light and hope that the other Spider people have
@@RandomSkyeRoses yeah definitely. His home life most likely formed a big part of his mentality which is based a lot on guilt
It's quiet realistic for an abusive mother, like they know how to pick on their children's insecurities and flaws. Or what think are flaws.
If you think that's abusive, then oooh boy, you're not ready for the rest. She's a massive POS, and his dad isn't much better.
Another thing that suggest that Miguel doesn't move forward is his lack of Spider sense, he quite literally can't sense the future since he is so past oriented which just adds another layer of symbolism to his character 10/10 writing
Nope he is DEFINITELY right. The Canon Events are actually Fixed Points in Time. Miguel knows that and tries to prevent them from being broken so that Incursions don’t happen like with Necromancer’s World and Sinister Dr Strange.
Now before anyone says that I’m wrong and that if the Canon Events are actually Fixed Points then the Universe itself would have made sure that they happened like it did in Necromancer’s World with Christine where whatever the Good old Doctor did Christine always died and it took Strange absorbing dozens of Multiversal Demons too break that event. Yes that would be true if the Interruption of the Canon comes from WITHIN in the Universe through Time-Travel and not from a different Universe completely like it was with Miguel himself, Strange 838, Sinister Dr Strange and Necromancer. We all saw that whenever they did what Miles is essentially trying to do break the Canon with powers/knowledge from alternate Universes it caused an Incursion to their own Universes or a Parallel.
@@aranha6285 fixed points are one thing but miquel focused specifically on spiders tragedies on Peter parkers not and copy and pastes for everyone
Like Nazis terrible monsters they were but it created history and as bad as they were we couldn't alter it without having a chain reaction of altering history potentially making even worse monsters and we can't know what outcome it would be
Like in loki with Pompeii
Canon events aren't real and it's not fixed points either
Example non canon
If you look at pav universe building collapsing with dark matter consuming it when hobie and Gwen are holding it up and miles and pav go down to save people the building is covered in dark matter consuming it causing the hole in mumbattan not canon event disruption
Incursions possiblly all the interactions of different universes even with the spiders going to tons of different missions they're universe could be colliding with those universe causing things and getting lucky there's survived like miquels other world he interact too much and stabilise himself as if he was in his dimension kinda like a tether and hes supposed to be in his universe amd he didnt go bsck so it started pulling them together causing the two universes to collide and as miquels universe didn't die in the collision and miquels watch kept him stable to his universe he survived and no one else did allowing him to see on the other side like being able to stand at a missile strike and not be touched by the blast but everyone else is
@@aranha6285 These guys forget how Strange Supreme destroy his own universe while trying to defy an Absolute Point, it's literally the same with Canon Event.
@@aranha6285it's the same thing in Doctor Who. There are just some events that the Doctor CANNOT change even if he's almost a god of time.
@@raiden_ryoga An Absolute Point seems to be different than a Canon Event tho, as you can avoid the Canon Event, but with the Absolute Point the world/timeline will always find a way to make completely new events to make the said major event happen anyways as we see with Strange Supreme's futile attempts to change an Absolute Point, inly for it to blow up in his face.
I think that Miguel only giving Gwen the watch after she asks herself whether she can "fix this" is him coming to the conclusion that she's in a state to accept the idea of canon events. Gwen thinks her relationship with her police captain is lost, so Miguel- recognising that she's a very capable spider woman- thinks he can say to her "You're right, you can't fix it, but accepting your loss now is going to make what's coming easier." and I think it works on her, until she reconnects with Miles for all the reasons you outline here.
I think, and this might be a bit of a stretch, that it also ties in with the motif of having your two cakes, and doing both. Gwen is, in that moment, having to reckon with the fact that she's failed to be both the Spider Woman of her world and the daughter of her world's Captain Stacy, and she doesn't know what to do. Miguel, in offering her the watch gives her a literal and metaphorical way out. She can do neither, leave her world and her father behind, and these people, people like her, will accept her for it.
Honestly I kind of interpreted that less as intentional manipulation (although it kind of is, I guess) and more a moment of sympathy? He is also just some person who's lost and confused- he also doesn't know how to fix this.
@@NeuroPean-df3oh I mean, nothing about him recruiting people to the spider society was ever about manipulation. As strong as Gwen is, Miguel didn't need her and the emotional part of why he let her join is the reason he told her what he told her.
@@NeuroPean-df3ohYeah, but it took Miguel a noticeably longer time than Jess to welcome her into the fold.
Miguel was contemplating leaving her. If it was pure sympathy alone, he would have been far quicker to welcome her.
@@hkr0065that’s specifically due to her relationship with miles. Miguel and Jess both know what happened with kingpin and how close gwen and miles got. That’s why he told Jess she knows why when initially denying her
@@hkr0065 Thats empathy is different than sympathy.
His whole thing is keeping things as they should be, regardless of whether it’s bad or good. Since the canon was intact, he likely assumed that it was inevitable for this to happen and believed she’d likely be safe regardless (Cap Stacy is the one who dies, not Spiderwoman).
He had Gwen join because she feels guilt and so does he. Since he can empathize with her situation, she gets to join. He doesn’t want someone on the team who will let emotions get in the way of doing the right thing.
Gwen fails multiple times cuz she cares about Miles. Once she does it the final time, he decides she’s not going to work with them to fix things and sends her back. He knows Capt Stacy won’t be a threat.
So what you’re REALLY saying is that what makes Miles unique is that, unlike every single other spider person, he learned to cope with and process his grief and trauma in a healthy way
the only spidey w two parents, he lucky in that way
@@dookieblossoms2980 Him also having both of his parents can make for interesting stories and relationships he has with the people around him, and he has a little sister now too. As someone with siblings, it's great to know that a character I love is also a big brother now too, because it's something to relate to.
@@dookieblossoms2980Spider Woman has 2
grief? what grief? what does miles have to grief? two loving parents?
@clapdemcheeks8111 bro? His uncle? The spiderman that died saving him? Disappointing his parents repeatedly because he has to keep a huge secret from them?
I think Miguel is so mad at miles is because he sees his younger self in miles and he hates his younger self so much for destroying and killing billions of lives because of his selfish desires. This is what miles wants to do and Miguel cannot let himself let this ever happen again.
I THOUGHT OF SOME OF THAT TOO
LIKE IN THE TRAIN SCENE
😃😯
big agree
LITERALLY Archer from Fate
I think anybody would want to stop miles from killing billions of people
Since I've heard "If not for Uncle Ben, most of us wouldn't be here" from Peter B. Parker, I began to think how sad it is that Spider-Man's superhero work isn't founded mainly on wanting to make the world a better place or unconditional care for others, but on a sense of guilt that can washed away by helping people. Spider-Man in his most depressing form does not help people only because it's the right thing to do, but because of the burden of responsibility that rests on him. As a result, he isn't like Superman or Captain America - he's closer to Batman (it's not without reason that Bruce Wayne also has a problem with accepting relationships in his life and opening up to people). Pavitr in Across the Spider-Verse works great in this context. In his quick recap, we don't hear about his uncle's death, even though it could have happened. What really matters is that Pavitr just wants to help people, feed dogs, fight crime, and at the same time have a relationship with his aunt or girlfriend. He's not bound by any oath, he just wants to do it. Sure, Pavitr has something to learn here too, but he's still that positive, optimistic superhero who does good because it's right and beautiful, not because some trauma from the past forces him to do so. That's why I wouldn't be surprised if Beyond the Spider-Verse's tagline was something like "Why do you wear a mask?". Btw, I love the use of "Beyond" in the title of the finale of this trilogy. And it's not about some stupid move of Miles and Gwen to live-action, but about "going beyond the known rules of Spider-Verse and being Spider-Man". It's time to lead Spider-Man to new and better paths.
i mean pavtir is in the honeymoon im not taking this seriously phase where he would have had some serious accident that makes him actually take being spiderman seriously
Eh, Spider-Man has always been bound by responsibility. The guilt is a factor because of how it played in Peter's life. If he hadn't been selfish, Uncle Ben wouldn't have died, but this is just an underling development of the greater framework: bad things happen when good people who can help don't. At many times we're shown that Spider-Man's moral fiber and will power are far stronger than most super heroes out there, which often leads to Peter getting screwed in his personal file, courtesy of the writers, may I add. It's this tenacity that makes the core of the character. It is atonement, yes, but it is also the right thing to do. Those are not mutually exclusive.
@@sparking023 But what if Pav and Miles are just good people and don't need the trauma to be good heroes? I think that the canon event theory actually devalues the other Spidermen's strenght of character, as if they wouldn't be heroes without the trauma.
@@michelebozza1591 except Miles already has trauma. Uncle Aaron died, but instead of a "with great power comes great responsibility", he got a "do your thing bruv". The entire arc of Miles character is how he's Spider-Man without being "Spider-Man". Pav is just another Spider-Adjacent
@@sparking023 yes and although he had a different kind of trauma, lesson and coping mechanism, he is still Spiderman. To me that means that it's not the trauma itself that define what a spiderman is but the inner personality of the spider people. In contrast Miguel's vision concentrate on the trauma itself as a necessity, not an obstacle to surpass. I don't know if this makes sense, I'm very intrigued by this discussion and can't wait to see the resolution to progress it.
I wonder if he thinks he's saving the Spidermen some pain in a way, like if/when they fail the one they love, its devastating. You think of everything that went wrong, what you could have done differently, etc. But if they don't even TRY to save them, and have time to accept the loss before it even happens, Maybe he thinks it would hurt them less. Its not an accident, and you didnt fail: it was fate. Absolving all the Spiders of any responsibility (wink wink) they had in the 'canon' situations
Peter B. pretty much says this exactly: "If not for Uncle Ben, most of us wouldn't be here, Miles. And all the good we did... It wouldn't have been done." Miguel recruiting people to his cause has always been about preventing what happened to the world he broke from happening again, but the reason everyone joins him is because believing that there was nothing they could do is great, it's easy, and it helps cope with the pain.
Most importantly, the sense of belonging that comes from being free of that pain together means that the spiders will do anything Muguel says without question, and there's nothing that could convince them it's wrong.
It always seemed to me that this is indeed a situation of learned helplessness, which may seem strange since we're talking about one of the strongest and well known superheroes out there; Spider-man, but that's exactly the point, learned helplessness isn't something anyone is immune to and Spider-man is notorious for having the worst possible things happen to him/her, regardless of variant or universe.
Now the reason I believe it is learned helplessness is because of all the bad things that tend to happen to Spider-man, it just gets too much and not only do you cling on to an easy answer (it must happen because of canon) but the pain searching for a different answer that may not even exist can simply be too much to bear. Couple that with the risk of the multiverse collapsing and it becomes a clearly compelling argument that is difficult to disagree with.
But I believe this is exactly why Miles was needed, to see things differently than any other Spider-man, to refuse what was put in front of him just because everyone around him said he didn't have a choice or because it was simple. The reason our Miles Morales is able to see through the mistake that the other Spider-people have fallen victim to is precisely because he is effectively an anomaly, like Miguel said. He is both just like all of them and yet at the same time completely different from all of them. He embodies the two cakes analogy.
TL;DR The Spider-people have accepted pain and loss as inevitable and are therefore blind to a different solution, Miles can see things differently and will ultimately be the key to finding out what is really going on/what else can be done.
(I didn't mean to drag this out so much I'm sorry but now I've written too much to just delete so I'll put this up anyway)
I think he’s saving the spidermen some pain in a way by not having their fucking world start to collapse. idk, just a thought
@@kevin76165 Miguels situation was pretty specific because it wasn't his world. If a Spiderman broke the canon of their OWN world, they would die with it.
@@smileyhappyface5864 how does this disprove my point? Hell it makes it even better, now they owe their LIVES to Miguel and his crew for stopping canon events.
The "I can do both" motif is the iconic spiderman conflict of whether to tell his parents, ruining his chance to have a normal life to go back to outside of being spiderman, or keep it hidden, "doing both", but with both constantly pulling him away from the other, making both his personal life and his work as spiderman tougher.
I think the point that you made saying that Miguel prioritize thinking instead of following his gut is extremely on point, and it makes even more sense when you remember that Miguel is the only spider-person without a spider-sense, meaning he does not only doesn't follow his "gut" he doesn't even have one to follow, so in a fundamental level his character is almost forced to follow his head, and that can be interpreted as him being crippled by his past and overly rational thinking, what makes him unable to see any other side of the story.
Well, the other side of the story is possibly the collapse of an entire universe, so... Logically, Miles is making the most idiotic decision imaginable. He'd rather sacrifice untold TRILLIONS to save one person.
@@MrJinglejanglejinglespiderman lifts the trolley up and punches the guy who tied down the people to the tracks
@@regularartist699 That's cute, but idealized.
Also the continued theme of other spider people eating, when Miguel literally throws it away
@@cloudGremlin the whole movie of ATSV is about standing out and going against the norm and doing your own thing and being different but did Miles really do that if he did something everybody (audience) could get behind and sided with him and shit on Miguel? Wouldn’t applying the lesson IRL mean siding with Miguel?
Also I love how Spider-Man fans say Miguel is completely wrong and unreasonable but would hate any spider-man adaptation in which uncle Ben lived and didn’t die, and fans wanted MCU Peter to suffer consequences and loss and not have it all/the easy way out, and would NWH and PS4 be as popular as they were if Aunt May didn’t die?
A lot of people that just shit on Miguel are blinded by their emotional hormones and lack any rational intelligence and can’t consider the other side and only see black and white and can’t see that neither side is completely right or wrong
Spider-Man fans do not want to be wrong and always want to be right and on the winning side
Miguel is meant to represent the Spider Man fandom as a whole. directors pointed out that this idea of the canon acts as a critique of spiderfans who act as though all Spider-Men have to go through the same "canon" moments. And that any adaptation that doesn't is "an anomaly" or wrong and is treated harshly. It sounds like Spider-Man fans are projecting their self absorbed and insecure demands onto Miguel and don’t want to be wrong
People are so caught up in calling out the already established inconsistencies in the canon event idea that they don’t understand or acknowledge the thematic significance of canon events as a representation of “necessary story beats (especially for Spider-Man)” that they for years want to happen all the time but can’t admit they were wrong or were challenged by that.
The things that you can't seem to figure out? They're all related to parenting. Miguel is a dad. That's the image we see of him. Peter B Parker. Also a new dad. Gwen has a dad. Miles "spreading his wings" is about his relationship with his dad. And his relationship with his mom is all part of this too. Heck, Spiderwoman is a pregnant mom! There's a whole parent and kid connection here.
All the parents are struggling with control vs letting go. Gwen's dad is so obsessed with protecting his daughter that it comes out as wanting to control her life. In the end, he lets go of that control and recognizes that her life is going to be different than he expected, but that she will be her own person who he loves.
Miles's Dad is also trying to protect his son by controlling him. If he can ground Miles (literally keep him from flying), than Miles will be safe and mature. His mom realizes that they need to let go and have Miles be his own person in order for him to be an adult.
Miguel is a parent. He lost his family, stole another one, lost them, and is now trying to control all the other spiderpeople in the name of protection. He's being very paternalistic, treating them all as lost children he must protect from themselves. He does this by trapping anomalies, controlling differences. He has not learned to let go of control and let things be different than he expected. He is holding tight and Miles says, "Nah, Imma do my own thing." Miles breaks free and is ready to move into adulthood, even if this parent figure still hasn't let go of control.
Peter B Parker is a new dad. He's just starting to realize this fear, the desire to protect May, and Miles. But he's already making different choices. He chooses to let Miles be his own adult, even if it looks different than he thought.
Anyway, Spiderwoman will be interesting to watch in the next movie with her position as a mom. And Alt Miles too, as a kid without a father and with a mom who doesn't have the same power.
Also about moving forward, once they learn that to let miles to "grow" instead of controlling him, they allowed themselves to be apart of the present. Still can about him and to keep him safe and such, but not in controlling "sticking to the plan" mentally same with Miguel wanting to keep him and everything else the same to keep going with the "status quote" to keep follow the set plan the canon. Not being one with the present will not make us grow, and will not be able to see the full picture.
Late comment, but genuine question, since maybe I misunderstood.
"Miguel is a parent. He lost his family, he stole another one, lost them."
When you say "he lost his family".
Genuine question, was Miguel ever a parent in his own universe? Or was he only a parent in his alternate universe (the life that he 'stole')?
Because what I understood is that he never had any children of his own. Only his alternate self did, but never he himself.
So my question is, did Miguel ever have children of his own? Or was he only a parent in the life he 'stole'?
Because if so, maybe it's something I accidentaly missed.
Again, sorry. It's just a question I genuinely had.
@jack-of-a-few-trades I was sure that losing his family was his canon event, and then he stole a family from an alternate universe...which caused that universe to collapse...but it seems you might be right about his original universe. However, his raising a daughter, even if for a short time in a alternate universe, still puts him in parent category, especially since that daughter is his whole motivation.
@@lydia1634 Aah, got it.
Thank you so much for answering.
I thought maybe there had been something I had missed.
A specific shot in a specific scene, or a throwback comment, or a reference to it, or an implication about it.
I'm not disagreeing with your ultimate point.
I was just really curious. Because maybe there had been more information that I had accidentally failed to notice.
That's why I asked, because maybe there was something in specific, that I accidentally missed.
Again, thank you for having taken the time to answer.
Dude, I thought I understood this movie but your essays made me realise it's even deeper than I thought. The idea that Miles isn't like other Spider-Mans, because he is defined by his future, while everyone else is define by the past is such an amazing concept I completely overlooked. It also makes me even more impressed with the writing skills the creators of Spider-Verse have
I always though the two cakes motif was Miles's refusal to choose between being Spiderman and his family (being Miles). While all the other Spiderverse people have simply accepted this as truth, Miles is actively rebelling against it. He's refusing to accept the binary and instead is "doing his own thing." He's going to find a way to have his cake and eat it too, even if that means baking two cakes.
Also I ADORE your videos; thank you so much for all the great insight and hard work you put into these!
Both cakes were crumbled. Both cakes read a terrible message. Both cakes represent each Miles or Miles x Gwen.
to have his cake and eat it too by baking too cakes means he will have lose one cake
I do appreciate the idea that Miles is trying to go against the norm of what it means to be Spider-Man (losing the ones you love) but I can’t help but be reminded of another Spider person who tried to have his cake and eat it too and you just have to watch No Way Home to see where that got him. I guess we’ll have to wait until the third film to see if Miles will succeed or if indeed “no good deed goes unpunished”.
Miles and Gwen is a bs pairing. Fucking gross
Way to deage her and all that bs.
Miles dad will sacrifice himself because he knows that’s what you gotta do sometimes, or his mom will die in the comics because of his own fault and learn nothing from it.
Miles is a shit character.
@@jjjwhovian the problem with punishing Miles for going against the flow would be that it'd once again just put the whole logic of being spider-man back to square 1 with the comics problem of always making Spider-Man suffer, how they can never have just a happy ending or anything of the sort, kinda a bad idea to send a message of "Trying to change the world for the better will only always get your life fucked up beyond all repair."
It's so insane how you always manage to make every line, every detail in the movie meaningful in the bigger picture, or different aspects of narrative
Even when the movie doesn't.
The importance of Canon events is this (and you can see it through Spider-Man India in comparison to both Miles and Miguel):
A Spider-Man who does not know the price of being Spider-Man thinks the job is easy. Miles skipped that step because him becoming Spider-Man caused his universe's Spider-Man to die. (Skipping that step is strike one against Miles).
A Spider-Man who thinks the job is about Justice is an immature Spider-Man because the vagueness of the goal insinuates he doesn't have a deeper reason.
A Spider-man who thinks that being Spider-Man is fun does not know the difficulty of hard choices (I.e. saving his girlfriend, or the police chief he is close to) and will inevitably make the selfish choice (and will likely lose the girlfriend later as a result).
And a spider-man who hasn't had a significant moral failing doesn't understand the responsibility of being spider-man, and therefore does not fully understand the adage "with great power comes great responsibility"
Miles IS right for his stage of being Spider-Man, and Miguel IS right for his stage.
And they are wrong for eachothers' stage.
I’m really curious on how Miguel’s story will conclude in BTSV, I hope he doesn’t die and is able to see what truly caused the universe of his alternate variant collapsed and gets some closure from it.
Who cares, wanna see spider punk story.
@@IronheartvsMiles Who cares? Did you ask people about their feelings? Do you have any statistics to back up your wordings?
If the writing is good, Miguel will sacrifice himself to defeat spot, mirroring the scene at the end of the first movie with Beter. If the wrriting is excellent, miles won't let him and they will defeat the spot together, with miguel learning to live in the present
@@IronheartvsMiles nobody asked
@@mottom2657 i think he just likes spider punk its not that deep😭
Shnee: follows the themes and character motivations to make this spectrum of the ideology of moving forward and fixing stuff.
Hobie: I dont believe in Shnee's ideology spectrum
Truly the punk spider
Schnee came up with this whole spectrum line of "fix it" and "move forward" and puts each character down and Hobie's like "nah I'm not even there, m8". Even in a meta context he's still a punk 😂
Right. He tears down the old to make space for the newer and better. I think he is very much in the present, because he has to be aware of the problems he sees in his present to change it.
@@soren4818 he is after all a representation of punk culture. A culture that is all about rejecting established systems to allow full freedom of expression, rebelling against those forcing people to conform to a way of living or thinking
@@soren4818He’s proactive but since he’s “‘not a role model” he doesn’t want to be leading the charge but he will support those that do.
I mean, he basically embodies the term "Antidisestablishmentarianism". He's a contrarian. He stands against everything, so he stands for nothing.
problem is when you only think about the future, you'll never learn form past mistakes.
miles can move forward, but his past(spot/miles 42) will catch up to him eventually, and miles will have to learn responsibility from consequences.
Miguel probably only thought moving forward aswell when he was in a separate universe, and it all his consequences followed him.
One of my two current ideas with Lyla is that she may be the one to finally prove to Miguel that he’s going about everything wrong. The only “evidence” I have towards this is that sense she is able to track the spot and is almost computerized in a way that she may be able to show Miguel proof from how Miles and Gwen’s team react to things that there is a better way to live.
My other idea is that she may be the one who is keeping Miguel’s idea that he is going about it in the correct way. Maybe she’s a villain who sits on his shoulder and reminds him of how he’s failed.
I don’t know if either of those made much sense, but they are the ideas I came up with
Miles says "so we're just supposed to let some algorithm decide"- or something of that kind. I think she's being used as a tool to perpetuate Miguel's worldview, but she's very fun and lively and quippy, all things Miguel isn't, really? She's the one who helps him make the watch to the multiverse.
In the Spider-Man 2099 comics LYLA did go rogue and turn on Miguel. Maybe that'll be the twist in beyond the spider verse.
I think its the former bc when Miguel sent Gwen home she seemed caught off guard and like she started to question his decisions/morals
@@martaleja9279 That's a good point.
- i think Beter was literally physically there bc Miguel was seeing the beginning of that disaster, maybe a couple of dissolving buildings, and calling in a skilled spider or spiders to help him save people.
- Theres a deleted scene from the first movie where beter explicitly tells miles NOT to focus on saving the whole world, but on saving one specific person, and in one of the games, Peter is angry and yelling at Miguel for even considering letting a woman die, even if it means everyone else would be saved. Trying to do both, and specifically focusing on a loved one in peril is a core aspect of the character of Spiderman. He doesnt consider there being backlash to doing this, he always goes in expecting/willing himself to do it all, and is totally caught off guard if/when it goes wrong. And in order to have that core spiderman belief change so drastically, only seeing the backlash first hand, being in the middle of a huge disaster that could/would happen again if you try to fight it, could do that. If beter wasnt personally there to see it, he would almost certainly still be in the "there must be another way" camp.
I've also been thinking about the frequent "I can do both" statements from multiple characters and I think it strongly relates to canon events. The idea of Spiderman trying to "do both" happens frequently in every spiderman story and in every case a choice has to be made that ends up in a canon event. For example, Pativr Prabhakar saying that he can do both when trying to save his girlfriend as well as the captain. A huge theme in spiderman is that they are constantly trying to "do both" and taking on so much, and it isn't always possible. I agree with your idea that these statements are moving toward the idea of anything is possible and I can because I want to. I thought a very poignant moment was when Miles learned about canon events and said to Gwen that she wasn't trying to protect him, she was trying to protect the "spiderverse" (when she tried to stop Miles intervening in Spiderman India's canon event). She turned to him and said "I was doing both". I think this is a huge foreshadowing that both cannot be done. Miles cannot be protected while canon events and the "spiderverse" are also protected. I think the idea of anything is possible will be held up because there will be some sort of change with the "spiderverse", canon events, or his relationship with 42 Miles/world that allows everything to be possible - the existence of Miles, the safety of his father, and the "spiderverse" not collapsing.
Peter - "With great power comes great responsibility"
Miles - "Just keep going."
Miguel - "With great power comes great GUILT."
Sums up every single one of em
FINALLY someone who doesn't fixate on "this person is wrong" or "this person is right" and instead says "they're BOTH wrong and they're BOTH right, they just have to meet in the middle."
"Anything is possible should terrify you as much as it gives you hope" is an excellent quote.
So interestingly, you mention about how Uncle Ben dying is about the message behind him dying rather than the actual event. It's almost like Miguel is trying to preserve the messages and lessons Spider Society receive which crafts them into the Spider people they are. I reckon it's not so much about 'preserving canon' by having characters experience bad things, it's more so that Miguel is so short sighted he can't see a better way to impart those important lessons and he's mad that Miles is doing great at being Spider-Man without them
@rozonwell the whole movie of ATSV is about standing out and going against the norm and doing your own thing and being different but did Miles really do that if he did something everybody (audience) could get behind and sided with him and shit on Miguel? Wouldn’t applying the lesson IRL mean siding with Miguel?
Also I love how Spider-Man fans say Miguel is completely wrong and unreasonable but would hate any spider-man adaptation in which uncle Ben lived and didn’t die, and fans wanted MCU Peter to suffer consequences and loss and not have it all/the easy way out, and would NWH and PS4 be as popular as they were if Aunt May didn’t die?
A lot of people that just shit on Miguel are blinded by their emotional hormones and lack any rational intelligence and can’t consider the other side and only see black and white and can’t see that neither side is completely right or wrong
Spider-Man fans do not want to be wrong and always want to be right and on the winning side
Miguel is meant to represent the Spider Man fandom as a whole. directors pointed out that this idea of the canon acts as a critique of spiderfans who act as though all Spider-Men have to go through the same "canon" moments. And that any adaptation that doesn't is "an anomaly" or wrong and is treated harshly. It sounds like Spider-Man fans are projecting their self absorbed and insecure demands onto Miguel and don’t want to be wrong
People are so caught up in calling out the already established inconsistencies in the canon event idea that they don’t understand or acknowledge the thematic significance of canon events as a representation of “necessary story beats (especially for Spider-Man)” that they for years want to happen all the time but can’t admit they were wrong or were challenged by that.
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674you’re grouping people together. I for one never even cared about marvel as a whole before ITSV came out. I had zero experience with any Spider-Man until that point. When I watched ATSV I had seen one Spider-Man movie (not including ITSV). And I very much agree that Miguel is in the wrong.
I don’t think the movie is about going against the status quo; I don’t think any good movie could possibly be about that, because like you said the status quo is something that we quite like and live by.
A great way to assess a theme of a story is by seeing what the character learns. I think the story is not about abandoning the status quo but rather not allowing it to punch us into boxes, and that if it tells us we don’t fit in, that’s okay, because we didn’t need to fit in in the first place.
Miguel does not fit this bill. He forces everyone to live the life they should rather than the life they want to. No matter which way you frame it, he isn’t “sticking it to the man,” because he IS the man, he’s the one punching people into boxes.
And this is ironic considering the way you were talking about Spider-Man fans. How they’re all this and they’re all that. How they ALL see in black and white. Maybe you’re agreeing with Miguel more than you think. Maybe you’re the one projecting.
Stop punching people into boxes.
@@koibubbles3302 awww we have a friend of humanity here
@@koibubbles3302this was so well said
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 what does this mean?
Miguel didn't get bit by a spider to get his powers it was an experiment that went wrong but he does have his fangs has paralyzing venom his fingers and toes has retractable used for climbing walls and rending substances as durable as cinderblock. Both forearms contain spinerettes capable of releasing adhesive strands of a webbing-like substance from the backs of his wrists. Miguel has an enhanced fast-healing metabolism, and enhanced sensory acuity enabling him to see in the dark, at great distances, and track fast-moving objects clearly; however, he is more sensitive to light than normal humans
No shit.
@@kenstorm707🙄
I really think Miguel is projecting super hard on Miles. Miguel literally stole another Miguel's place in another dimension, and his actions had harsh consequences. Miles and Miguel probably share more similarities than any other pair of spider people in the canon, and Miguel is using that connection in a toxic way.
But the difference between him and Miles is that Miles didn't consciously go to another dimension and try to 'steal' it, he just got bodied by a stroke of luck (good or bad?) and is now rolling with those circumstances.
This is an absolutely fantastic analysis of not just Miguel and Miles but the underlying base motivation of Spiderpeople.
I’m getting a huge vibe that this trilogy could open us up to a brand new kind of Spider-Man. That we can tell stories that don’t start with tragedy.
The line that I always remember when I think of Miguel is “I’ve given up too much to stop now.” In the Spiderverse canon, giving up/sacrificing/losing something is what the good guys do. Does Miguel believe if he started thinking of what he wanted as an individual it would make him a villain? Because he did think for himself, and it had the world-ending effect that is expected from “bad guys.”
It’s interesting that you said that Miguel is in a fixed mindset for this movie, since that’s how he started out in the comics too. Personally, I view Miguel’s conflict in ATSV to mirror his conflict in the comics where he relies on a system based on control (working for Alchemax, upholding canon events theory) to gain stability due to his past trauma based on instability (his childhood abuse, alternate dimension collapse).
Also for Lyla, I think she’s meant to reminiscent of Xina Kwan, Miguel’s ex-girlfriend that he has lingering feelings for in the 90’s comics. These lingering feelings are shown in Lyla’s design such as her being East Asian and having heart eyed sunglasses, along with her function of both keeping Miguel in check and being his best friend, roles that Xina played. If anything, Lyla acts as a reminder of his past life and relationships in the comics as in the film, Miguel hides his real comic book origins, likely due to how traumatic it was.
Miguel is a moron, he does not think before he acts
So is lyla about control as well. Him wanting her near because of growth since it was a time where he was happy or in love which is growth, or "keep him in check" meaning he doesn't stray from control " his status quote" "himself" his past. Idk?
I have a theory about Miguel.
Miguel is not an echo of Peter Parker / Spiderman. He is an echo of Kingpin. If you look at what we know of his backstory, they parallel the actions Kingpin takes in the first movie. They both break outside their narrative reality to grasp at the thing they want, which the story of their lives denied.
This is also why there is a bitter anger towards Miles breaking "Canon" and rejecting the Spider Society ethos. Miguel cannot accept that Miles can escape the Spiderman story, because that acceptance would shatter the lie he has constructed for himself.
im so glad im not the only person who thinks he's an equivalent to kingpin. the miguel we meet is the manipulated version of miguel that he's created, unlike kingpin, whose motivations were immediately clear
Great hypothesis. Miguel is kingpin....with hair.
@@inazuma3gou kingpin but with feral twitter stans LMAO
@@inazuma3gouKingpin but smokin hot
@@ziachung4547kingpin but just unfairly fuckin hot for how much of a dick he is
Miguel is a lot easier to analyze when you consider his fatal error; his obsession towards resolving canon events as a result of his own actions. He views the world with a cold, scrutinizing glare, but what Gwen said struck a cord close enough to home that it penetrated that attitude. She was in his position; facing down the barrel of a gun called 'consequences'. And, he saw a chance to do what nobody else could in his own situation; removing said consequences. Or, at least, delaying them. Fixing his error is his motif, as you go on to describe, but I think this should be taken into account too.
I think the reason why we don't know too much about canons and other such things yet is because Miguel himself doesn't entirely understand the forces he's working with. But, instead of seeing what Miles is doing as another path, he sees him going down the same road he did, but worse; taking _others_ down that road. My guess is that, in the next movie or two, they'll begin to truly understand the forces behind canon events in a way Miguel was too afraid of exploring, that he pretended to know more about than he actually did.
I haven't finished the video yet, but I paused upon seeing you being unable to understand the character. I don't know how literal you were about it or which element you specifically referred to, probably in the context of his unknown level of knowledge, but the one thing many people fail to consider is the most basic kinds of psychology; the kinds that surround behavior, masking, putting up a front. Somehow, I get the impression that Miguel isn't nearly as in control as he would like to make it seem.
Agreed, well-said! At his core, like Gwen, he doesn't know how to fix this.
Ironically in the art book miquel doubts the canon theory himself and believe if he used all his power he could save everyone but chooses not to as risk
Listen. I just have to say that this is the best breakdown for a movie I have seen for Spiderman in a longggg time!
The minor details you put in just shows how hard you worked and shows how great the writing is. I love videos like this. Please do more. You sir earned my respect, attention, and subscription!!
I actually think Hobie is perfectly in the center the entire time.
While Hobie is all about tearing down the old, it's being done in a way to build for the future. Yeah he's stealing bits from Miguel (the past) but doing so as a means to help Gwen (The Future). He learns about how to break the barriers (the past) so that one can break free from it and continue moving forward (the future) He talks shit about the Spider Society (the past) so that Miles isn't held back by it and can advance his own goals (the future)
Hobie knows he's not the main character, he knows no one actually is. Everything Hobie is doing is about tearing down the past while simultaneously building a future. Just as an Anarchist will go out smash windows, protest the cops, do graffiti etc... so too will they help tend to a community garden, squat unused buildings to secure places for people to sleep, cook food and hand it out.
Hobie's goals are to be part of a bigger community pushing towards the future, a future that understands the past, gets rid of that which is unnecessary or bad, but keeps that which is necessary or good. I also think that plays into his false dichotomy in his intro, where he simultaneously makes a serious point, but undercuts it. He is both serious and funny, he is both focused on the past, but hungry for the future. He steals the show, by playing a supporting role for everyone else.
Agreed! What is more forward facing then giving the next generation the information and resources to determine their own future instead of trying to impose his own ideals
I'm glad I'm not the only one who disagrees with the notion that Hobie has "no positive ideology"
He's trying to convince everyone that the status quo is flawed before introducing his idea of how a new system would work
Well said. While Hobie does largely revolve around bringing things down and the past, unlike the spider society, he's striving towards a better world that surpasses the current status quo.
He also doesn't fully take control because it's against his morals to be some big leader. He's an anarchist, he dislikes hierarchical systems, even mentioning for the label of hero and how it makes one essentially an autocrat, which is literally what Miguel is. He doesn't care to be the one in complete control because he doesn't think that's as fair as a collective of equals.
Then again he isn't an average spider man he is technically a rebel soldier willing to sacrifice a few to win a war. He doesn't see the same way other spiders do instead it's for the future. He is willing to risk others for the sake of changing something a lot of spider men wouldn't try to do. Heck he knows his putting the lives of billions at risk to help miles and his fine with that for change to happen cause either risk does lives or forever sacrifice people to save a universe
In a sense he is a chaotic character after all
He doesn't put the same value in the current lives of his risking than others spider men as long as good change happens.
Hobie's on his own scale of action and reaction. He doesnt believe in consistency after all.
My biggest fear for SPiderverse's impact on the movie industry is the takeaway movie execs will get from it. On the one hand, it's a superhero movie that is culturally relevant. I'm hoping the execs can see past that and recognize that audiences love the Spiderverse movies because they are good stories with rich characters.
Oh leave it to Hollywood exects to draw the wrong conclusion about why something is poplar every single time. Don't you worry. Good writing has never been on their business board.
@@notrelevant6702clearly seeing they havent caved to the strike yet. Which will bite them in the ass as more and more teams of artists, animators, actors etc join in
@@techissus7449Please, the writers are partially why we are in this mess to begin with. Studios can say "write a sequel/prequel/reboot of x,y, or z," but its the writers who help determine the most how good that film is. Get good writers? We get something genuinely enjoyable to watch like Ghostbusters Afterlife. Get bad writers? Ghostbusters 2016. Its always been that way.
The problem is writers are phoning it in and turning in absolute garbage, to the point where people are starting to debate if some projects (Barbie, Velma) are right-wing psyops. Things which are written so fundamentally badly, that they go against what the writer originally meant to say. If that's not a complete failure in writing then I don't know what is. That's not even going into how they are currently butchering existing stories because they fundamentally do not understand them. They "update" them and in the process make them thoroughly unintelligible.
Is their superhero fatigue? Yes. Can you push past superhero fatigue if story is good enough? Yes. Can the writers working in Hollywood do that? No, heck no.
The only people that need to strike are CGI artists. They might as well be in the videogame industry for how much they are being crunched. Also, friendly reminder that the studios were willing to agree with almost all their terms, with the one exception of a mandatory amount of writers in a writers' room, and they still turned it down.
@@alpyki2588 just as GC animators churn shitty GC due to low overall pay and terrible conditions so do writers, it's harder than it looks to just "write a good show" and your ignorance on that matter shows, also It doesn't matter that writers rejected that contract, you've obviously never been in a union if you don't understand why they rejected it
@@techissus7449 Yeah, they rejected it because more union members equals more pay for the union. Some of the writers are even frustrated that the union turned down the last offer. Unions work not to serve its members, but to serve the union staff itself. Much like HR serves the employer, not the employee no matter how much they pretend otherwise. Or how a company says they want to do different noble goals, when all they want to do is make money.
To be honest, any agreement regarding AI should be considered a big win, because China, India, etc are looking into it. I wouldn't be surprised if, maybe in 10 years or so, Hollywood will have to compete with foreign AI generated movies that have all the old actors AI generated, along with scripts that match. At that point mediocre movies will not cut it. Hollywood saying they will not use AI is already tying one hand behind their back. The raise in pay itself is ridiculous for what they're asking, especially since most Americans are hurting as well. Its the reason why these writers strikes are treated with derision. And as the strikes go longer and they get ever more increasingly obnoxious, its only going to make the public sour on them more.
Also, to my knowledge no writer has been rushed like the CGI artists. And no writer has had an entire studio close down. That's what happened to the people who redesigned Sonic the Hedgehog, their reward for their good work was the shuttering of their studio. Almost any accusation the video game industry has against them regarding the treatment of their CGI artists can now be said about Hollywood.
Notice how Miguel's whole demeanor *changed* from mildly angry but focused on stopping Miles to Completely pissed and focused on putting Miles in his place once Miles said that "Are you sure that you're even Spider-man?" Before that, he was at least calm while trying to stop Miles and somewhat emphatic to some degree while explaining the Canon but after Miles asked that question Miguel just started to talk down to Miles and antagonize him completely. Like he said "You don't belong here. You never did!"
Here's my take on the "Two Cakes"
Every Spider-person tends to struggle to find balance. They want to succeed in their normal life, and they want to succeed as Spider-man/woman/pig. They want to be with the people they love, but they also want to protect those people and keep them safe. They feel a huge responsibility to those around them but they hate the sacrifices that responsibility demands. Ultimately, every Spider-person seems to reach a point where they feel like the balance is impossible to maintain and they need to make a choice. Peter (Tobey Maguire) gives up on MJ, Gwen stops making friends, Miguel becomes so obsessed with protecting the multiverse that he attempts to represse ank kind of personal desire.
They've all learned that they can't do both. They can't have their cake and eat it too. They can't save everyone. But Miles hasn't learned that lesson yet. He still thinks that there's a way to have it all, save everyone, be both himself AND Spider-man. Dispite a nearly infitite number of Spider-people and their experience telling him otherwise. He rejects everything their telling him about the way things have to be and resolved himself to try to find a way.
Now this can go a couple different ways in the 3rd movie. He can fail and finally accept that great responsibility comes with great sacrifice, saving the multiverse at the cost of his own father, and thus following in the footsteps of almost every other Spider-man story. Or he can do his own thing. Find a 3rd option, try something no Spider-person's ever done before.
The movie seems to be setting up the latter, but if Miles' is able to succeed then that raises another question. Why him? Countless Spider-people before him must have tried, and failed, so why would he manage to pull it off? Well, I think Miles has 3 things going for him that previous Spider-men lacked.
1) He's willing to come clean and tell his parents about his identity relatively early in his career. Most either never take that step, wait too long, or manage to hit reset and undo the confession.
2) He has warning of what's coming while there's still a chance to do something about it. The others all blindsided by the need to make a choice too late to act on it, so they never got the chance to find their third option.
3) Most importantly, he's not doing this alone. He's got Gwen, Hobie, Peter, Pennie... etc coming to support him.
Maybe Miles is the one that's going to show the Spider-verse that Responsibility and Self Sacrifice are not the same thing
Responsibility? To be spiderman or himself. Also can you explain to be past present future.
Miles according to the video is leading towards future and later learns he should and does care about the present.
Miguel tried to tell his mom he's Spider-Man and his brother figured it out really early
i feel like people brush over the actual content we're provided in the film. his dialogue, his facial expressions, his voice; i dont understand how people can limit his whole character to just this controlling villain. the words "you can't have it all, kid, trust me i tried" and the "this whole time, ive been the one keeping it all together" alone give a lot of insight into the context of his actions. the desperation and fear on his face when he talks to miles about the consequences, the longing on his face when he watched that video of his daughter. i mean its literally all there, and yet i still see "hot takes" minimising his entire character into 'bad guy stopping miles from saving dad ):"
I think people characterize Miguel like that because in the end that's what he's doing
@@Temilade21 i know, but theres an enormous amount of depth to be considered. and its not just making it up, either, its acknowledging the details that the creators put in. at surface level, though, that characterisation would be correct
@@Temilade21I agree with you even in the video he said it …. Like even tho his mom is an a a- hole sheS right he tends to destroy everything around him that’s why this man powers had nothing to do with spiders LITERALLY HE’S A VAMPIRE
@@Itzindiaxduhh He's not literally a vampire, he's literally part spider. He has talons to cling to things like REAL SPIDERS. He can lift things that are many times his body weight like a REAL SPIDER. His fangs are used to inject venom like a REAL SPIDER. His powers are more spider based than "turn invisible and zap people with electricity."
@@Itzindiaxduhhdid you actually think he was a vampire?
0:16 “Awful?” That scene was incredible. It was so heartbreaking.
After reading a bunch of other comments on Lyla here are some thoughts:
When Lyla was first made she was witty and snarky just as she is now, but Miguel was as well. In the after credits scene of ItS they are having a fun convo which also involves a bit of jabs and banter but you do get the vibe that they're having fun and Miguel is chipper.
Now after his trauma he is sad and serious and changed and very much not enjoying himself but Lyla is still the same, she is still throwing banter, still having fun, but Miguel just seems annoyed and irritated at her. He's trying to keep the status quo and revert any changes but Lyla, in staying the same, shows that he himself has irreversibly changed and now has to deal with the reminder of his past.
The idea of Lyla as a reflection (in some ways, now an echo) of Miguel is really compelling!
So about the "I don't know how to fix this" line you brought up I'd like to bring a new perspective to it. I think that Miguel related completely to Gwen's feeling and that statement she made. Miguel *doesn't know* how to fix the issue of canon events and having to let them happen, nor does he know how to *fix* what he had done when destroying a whole multiverse, but he still desires a *solution* for/a way to *fix* the problem- which is similar to Gwen's situation in a way. Since Miguel wants for Gwen not to have to experience this same pain of having a situation that they both deeply want to solve but seemingly can't, he then decides to invite her to the spider society to prevent her from that pain. Which kind of leads me to disagree with the statement that he doesn't care and tears everything down at 23:28 .
Miguel himself says that he 'doesn't like what he has to do, but does it because it's necessary' (Check out a scene pack of him, because I can't seem to find a solo video of him saying that). Miguel takes on a role where yes he does tear things down, but he also doesn't tear things down with the a malice, but does it because he does care. He doesn't want other people to experience his pain, so what he does instead is try to prevent them having the same happen to them, which is his way of fixing things, even if cruel.
Heck, I think that Miguel genuinely wants a better solution based off what he's said. He currently has the Fix it mentality, but wants the Moving Forward mentality of there being a better way, but until that can be shown and proven, he can't bring himself to let another people take the risk that he took and destroy another universe. He's still stuck in trying to "fix" this issue by not letting the same actions he did be committed Yes, he brings destruction, *but*, he doesn't want other people to be destroyed and torn down the way he was and he also doesn't want to bring that destruction either.
He cares, but the way he does it isn't in a way that he or anyone else would like for it be shown, and he wishes that he could change the things the way they are, but until then, he has to be the necessary evil.
Anyways, I really enjoy your videos, and as a writer, they're also very helpful for me to learn from, so thank you!
Ok- after reading some comments I have a different impression. But what I was GONNA say was that Miguel confused me at first. The fact that he was called a vampire, his brutish fighting style, his demeanor (Like Peter B. points out, he's joyless). His grandios ethos.
I was thinking. "What exactly is spider-themed about this character?" I was think maybe he isn't a spiderman bc he's actually a werewolf or a vamp or something.
But, then I saw the moment you shared in the comics, where Miguel shows his claws sticking out as a way to PROVE he's spiderman. And that's when I figured that his powers manifested differently than other Spider-men. He has the body of a spider. Talons, venom, this hulking body and grizzly hair reminded me of a wolf spider or tarantula, he doesn't stick to things but uses claws (most bugs are so light that a little fiction is all they need to climb, unlike spidermen who have a gek-like stickyness to them), he's literally running as fast as a motorcycle (cuz indeed bugs are fast af) most other spidermen have the senses and reflexes of a spider (with some stregnth and invulnerability but, that's standard superhero stuff)
And, really, knowing about the comics really broadens this theme- Miguel wasn't even bitten by a spider, his story doesn't follow the same as other spidermen, he doesn't have any powers associated with spidermen (as far as I know) and I think that's why, after seeing all the other spidermen, he's so hard on Miles for being an anomoly.
Miguel was so much different from the other spidermen and ended up destroying a Universe. And now he's projecting that catastrophic self image onto any spiderman that's different from the status quo. It's and unspoken "you're not so different, you and I" situation, bc Miguel doesn't want to admit that he's inherently different, like Miles, so he hyperfocuses on actions and events.
ATSV has truly matched Arcane levels of depth. The fact that you can take a couple of 10 second scenes and write an entire 30 minute essay on them with extremely well crafted ideas and deep thoughts on life... Magnificent.
@@GuineaPigEveryday Pretty sure I'm being baited by an AI generated comment. It's just a random jumble of words with no coherent point.
You start off by criticizing Arcane, then do a complete 180 and start criticizing ATSV, then you go on a boomer rant about Gen-Z and ADHD, then you say you think ATSV is amazing.
I guess Lyla could be seen as a present reminder of Miguel's life before he ever tried to live the life he wished he had. Despite how much of an effect losing his alternate self's family had on Miguel (and by extension, other spider-people who saw it/heard about it) Lyla is still the same witty character she was in the first film's after credits scene. She is Miguel's sidekick/assistant, the same thing she was before he lost everything. And Miguel, and other spider-people potentially, want to be the same thing they were before multiverse nonsense upended their lives. I don't know if that helps with the unanswered Lyla question, but that's what I got out of it.
This is the best breakdown of anything I have ever seen on TH-cam. This video went so in-depth. I’ve always admired Spider-Man and thus never saw the flaw before today. He does good, but his own past creates his own grief in his head over and over and over again.
Facts!!
Edit: I had to really pause it when he mentioned being so laser focused on moving forward will lead you to an unfamiliar scary place, hence Earth-42. So layered
Very interesting analysis on Miguel and the spectrum of past / future focus!
I found your analysis of Hobie's mindset on the past / future spectrum most interesting. In your Hobie video, you mentioned that Hobie doesn't see himself as a role model, and instead supports other people like Miles or Gwen who can serve as that inspirational / role model, which explains why he plays a supporting role instead of a central role in leading some kind of revolt against the spider society. However, it's pretty clear that the people around Hobie respect him a lot, and he naturally becomes a focal point around which other characters gather around, which begs the question - Why isn't he a central leader? Why is he a supporting character?
Your point on Hobie only being focused on tearing down the past and not really having a clear view on the future beyond "you don't need all of this!" or "make your own watch" clarifies a lot of things. He could be a defacto leader in many ways, but perhaps he's self aware enough to know that while he's great at tearing down the current status quo, he doesn't have a clear vision for a better future, and thus can't spark enough idealism or inspiration in the people around him on his own. He can’t start a revolution with just a few friends that respect him for the revolutionary he is.
However, when he does encounter a person like Miles, who's entirely focused on the future and is held back by the status quo, he's able to inspire and help Miles to break free of the status quo and fully embrace the forward-thinking vision that he himself doesn't have. In that sense, Miles is the idealistic beacon of hope and future focus that Hobie can’t be that directly inspires multiple characters, most notably Gwen, to believe that anything is possible and that we don’t have to be held back by the past. Miles’, and subsequently Gwen’s stand against the spider society is subsequently much more effective at convincing spideys to leave the society than if he had tried to lead the revolution himself. Notably, he doesn’t even stay behind to try and convince anyone else to leave the society, partially because he has confidence that Miles’ (and Gwen’s) stand against the society are enough to convince people to leave and partially because he’s busy assembling multiversal watches to start a revolution.
This also (partially) explains why it’s Gwen who assembles the new spider band at the end of the movie and not Hobie - you’d expect at first glance that it would be Hobie, the revolutionary, leading the charge against Miguel. However, having been inspired by Miles (“One thing I’ve learnt from Miles - it's all possible”), Gwen now has the same determination and idealism that Miles has, and that makes her more inspirational as the leader of the new spider-band in leading the charge to save Miles and counter Miguel as compared to Hobie. After all, who better to lead all of Miles' friends to save him and stop Miguel and The Spot than the person who will stop at nothing and fight the entire multiverse if it means reuniting with the person she cares more about than anyone else? (There’s also the story reason that she’s a major character while Hobie is a supporting character, but I think that the way the characters are designed makes their roles feel natural even within the context of the story.)
As such, Hobie is most useful as an enabler - He can't give people hope for a better future on his own, but he can inspire people who already have that hope and are trapped in the present the tools to break free of their circumstances and achieve the goals they want to achieve, who can then likewise inspire others around them. In essence, he's the perfect supporting character for more inspirational, forward oriented figures like our main protagonists at the end of the movie.
I’m interested to see how the third movie develops Hobie further in this regard, maybe it will turn out that he does have some interesting ideas on what should replace the current status quo, or that he’s more future oriented than his current characterisation lets on!
Salute 🫡 to your efforts
Lovely analysis!!
It makes sense when you remember that all this time he hasn't actively resisted the spider society but instead kept his dislike towards them to himself. All this time Hobie has waited for Miles to finally appear to implement his ideals, and when he did, he supported him fully and backed him up. Only when he knew that Miles is going to turn the Society upside down, he showed his animosity ("Hobie you're not helping" "Good")
Maybe Hobie is just a passive person in contrast to his loud persona as Spider-Punk. I think being Spider-Man empowers him
Wow, that analysis will probably add more to Hobie's popularity.
Congratulations on reaching enough theory content to be longer than the movie!
As far as the questions go, I think the ending of the film *can* be seen as a conclusion to Miles' arc, and you even touched on it here. Before being sent to U42, he makes a stand in his philosophy, against all the other spiders, and this final sequence puts that to the test in a major way. His perception of what he is, and what he is separate from Spiderman. When he's tied to the punching bag and threatened with his life, he's faced with a dark mirror of himself. He's notably in shock, before composing himself with a very similar expression he had just before jumping off the rocket earlier. Now set in his beliefs. Even when faced with his *worst nightmare,* when *everything* falls apart, he's *gonna do his own thing.*
As far as I'm concerned, Lyla is just an AI assistant. She does everything Miguel says but doesn't have a will of her own. Now, here's what I think is interesting: There was a time in the comics in wich Lyla kinda confesses her "feelings" towards Miguel (because he asked her to be honest) and some time later she went psycho and almost killed Miguel's gf. Eventually she got fixed and everything was ok. It's kinda common to see him command her to do something without much thinking and then regreting it afterwards.
Lyla, even tho she's an IA, has an actual personality. She can be sarcastic, playful, dramatic, funny, it's not uncomon to see her mocking Miguel in varius ways while being unconditionally obedient to him, and that is because Miguel allows her to be this way. And I think that plays into his character by showing that he's not as much as an extremist as he seems. He is willing to accept a prankster secretary as much as he is willing to accept that some things cannot be changed or fixed, but when the pranks get too mean or specific changes cause entire universes to dissapear, that's when he knows he has to step in
Lyla reminds me of Tinkerbell lol.
Your thoughtful and curious approach to film analysis really fuels my desire to write stories worth studying like this. I don't comment often but I wanted to make sure you're aware that your work is appreciated. Keep it up mate!
There's a line in the movie where miles says something like "so I have to let them die because some algorithm said so?" and Lyla says gets offended and says "Hey!" which makes me assume that she is an algorithm and thats obviously why she got offended when he said that. I'm not sure why she is so human like but I'm guessing Miguel created her, and maybe her job has been to predict where or find where anomalies happen?
Peter B isn't the only spiderman there, if you rewind the scene and look carefully or pause at the right time you can see other spider people there. it would also make more sense narratively as how most of the spiders are so loyal to Miguel as they in person had seen what happens when you break the canon in person.
I think the scene is a breadcrumb to a possible overlooked truth: it’s not the canon events that destroy a universe but the presence of other spider people. The basis: earth 42 still exists. Earth 42 has no spiderman, perhaps utterly wrecking every future canon for that universe, yet…it still exists. Each dimension in the movie (and arguably, the first movie too) starts to fall apart when there are multiple spider people in the same dimension.
Thus, I propose Miguel simply misunderstood the catalyst for the dimensions to collapse and his spider society is unintentionally the greatest threat to the spiderverse’s existence than any canon event.
Your final point reminded me of a really great quote from a TH-cam channel I love.
“Change, after all, is neither innately benevolent or malevolent, but it sure as shittingly was the same as before.”
And that’s the message both characters have to learn. Miles has to know that change can be terrible. His father dying would be a terrible change to his life and outlook, and he has to understand that actions have unforeseen consequences.
Miguel, on the other hand, needs to learn that change is valuable. Without Miles, Gwen and Peter B would still be struggling with themselves and their families. Without Miles breaking the cannon, their lives would have arguably been substantially worse.
I actually cannot thank you enough for sharing this perspective about the movie. It has opened my eyes in ways that I wasn’t even considering before. These movies are amazing. Great analysis!
He literally doesn't miss. I feel like I'm back in class and I'm taking notes for my own story writing
This is definitely one of my favorite video essays about the Spiderverse movies. It made me all the characters in a different way, and I can't wait to rewatch ATSV with this in mind. I also can't wait to see how Miguel and Miles will meet in the middle and defeat The Spot in the third movie because it really seems like it's what the writers are trying to set up.
I love that, by being a movie about Spiderman (aka a movie that discusses what it means to be Spiderman), ATSV is also a movie against that stands very strongly against fatality.
It goes to say "no, Spiderman's story doesn't have to be about loss, and grief, and sacrifice, and guilt, and being stuck in the past. It can be a different story."
And I think it's especially interesting because that's what the character has been struggling with for a while in the comics. Peter Parker was supposed to retire and be replaced by Ben Riley, but that didn't work out. Peter sacrificed his marriage with MJ to get Aunt May back from the dead, which most fans hated.
And those problems happened because the writers and the producers don't know how to make the character change.
Spiderman has to be Peter Parker, and he has to be a struggling young man, and he has to be stuck in his past mistakes. And because they don't know how to write a Spiderman that doesn't stick with those criteria, they reset him, to keep the status quo. He can't keep his marriage, he can't accept Aunt May's death, he can't grow up, he can't retire, because then he would stop following the Spiderman formula, and he would stop being Spiderman.
This movie is, of course, on top of everything else, a very meta commentary about the concept of Spiderman, about what it means to be Spiderman. And what it does is expand the definition of it. Just as you said, it's not just that anyone can be behind the mask and live Peter Parker's story, it's that any story can become that of Spiderman.
And that's why I believe, very strongly, that Miles' dad will survive, that Gwen will survive, that Miles will get his happy ending. Because this is a story that claims that suffering is not an intrinsic part of Spiderman.
Miles is a fresh wind for Spider-Man. While Peter's Comics, at least the main universe, are more stuck than ever in constant suffering, Miles' current run deals far more heavily with having a balanced life. Insomniac's version of them, too, with Peter actually taking a break. Spider-Man isn't just about grief and suffering at the end of the day it's about overcoming it. Shame the main comics often forget that
Oh, the whole thing about a loved one's last words being informative of their ideology is really interesting!
"With great power comes great responsibility"
"Just keep going"
And, okay, these ones are kind of a stretch but I wanted to say them anyway:
With Gwen's Peter death, he says "everything is going to be okay" (something which perfect Peter also says to miles), which is... I'm not sure how that factors in but it's definitely gotta. She's definitely haunted by her past.
In the comics, Hobie's thing is "With great power comes no future." Pretty interesting stuff considering the past/future focused diagram you have there.
OH AND, the a key one, apparently in the comics miguel's defining phrase is "with great responsibility, comes great guilt"? Which like. Yeah. That sure is him.
Unrelated to my catchphrase analysis: the whole thing about Miles and Miguel both being right and wrong is interesting! One of my friends pointed that out. Because Miles doesn't know if he *can* save his dad (not using past data) but Miguel isn't letting anyone *try* to get new data, in a sense. Great stuff!
And Miguel's plan makes perfect sense.
We don't know what will happen if we break the canon, so why risk it? Why risk the destruction of an entire universe just to save one guy?
Whereas Miles is much less mature, and is more focused on "This is what I want, and I will try to get it."
He tries to do both, and fails at both. He failed at nipping Spot in the bud, and he failed at respecting his family.
So in the 3rd movie, he might get better at doing both, or he might focus on one or the other.
The dying words for Miguel's wasn't actually "with great responsibility comes great guilt" (but fits the bill). If we're talking the 90's run, I like to think its the exchange that happens near the end of the run when a stranger dies in his arms.
"I knew it... I knew you were a hero still... Wait til I tell Lorean..."
The context is important, but spoiler for the 90's run. The stranger was the man who saved Miguel in his fall and gave him the material for his cape. He was the first who truly believed Spiderman had returned. But spreading propaganda later turns the public against Spiderman. Miguel spotted a burning Spiderman effigy which turned out to be a real person, he put out the fire but couldn't save the victim and he died in his arms.
I really like that his dying phrase comes from a stranger. Not a caretaker, not a friend, not someone he personally knows. It was just a man he inspired and who believed him to be a hero to the end. The Lorean part is a nice detail. Even though he was a nobody in Miguel's life, he was important to someone else. A slice into his life.
Miguel responds to his death with "I never even knew your name..."
-The fact Miguel still has that cape even though he doesn't use it, makes me think a variation did happen-
Oh, that's actually really interesting! And sad.
Additional little thought I had: in the comics I'm pretty sure Gwen's Peter death only has "I just wanted to be special like you, Gwen", with "everything is going to be okay" being a Spiderverse addition. Additionally in Gwenverse she finally realised that those words haunted her and that she kept on trying to *stop people ending up like her*, which is like. Ow. Not sure where exactly that fits in all or this but it sure is something.
(One more thing: I love how the line "you're like me.", completely pivotal to Spiderverse, comes from a spider girl run? Idk rly I dont follow the comics that much)
@@NeuroPean-df3oh Actually "you're like me." comes from the line that Uncle Aaron tells Miles right before he dies in Miles's original comics a decade and a bit ago, and he says "you're just like me." but it's shortened a bit to make more sense for the movies.
Also you'll notice the common trope among the spider people introducing themselves throughout both movies by saying 'You know the rest' at the end of their intros. Which implies that we as the viewers have heard the story so many times that we already have the fate of any spiderperson set in stone or 'canon'. The whole point of Miles is to break the idea of us or the spider society knowing the rest/predetermining his fate but rather him taking his story into his own hands and writing it his own way.
0:06 miguel hittin the DIO pose
I think another thing that’s really interesting that I’ve just come to realize is how much Peter B. himself conflicts with Miguel’s logic of fixing the past and destroying what he believes shouldn’t happen.
Of course there’s the intermission in the chase scene when Peter B. talks to Miles. Yes, it’s there to expand on Peter B. and Miles’ relationship and yes, it gives us an opportunity to see how Peter B. has grown after the first movie, but one of the most memorable things he says in his talk is especially important from a plot perspective.
“Bad things are going to happen. It’s what makes us who we are. But good things are going to happen too, y’know? Like YOU happened… Like SHE happened.”
He uses Miles and Mayday as two of his examples in his life, he even specifically doesn’t mention MJ either. In other words, amongst all the bad things that plague his life, the unmistakably GOOD things are both things that shouldn’t have happened.
Peter was never supposed to meet Miles (and hell Miles wasn’t even supposed to be Spiderman), nor was he supposed to reconcile with MJ, nor was he supposed to have Mayday. It’s only because Kingpin unintentionally brought Peter to 1610 that Peter got to meet someone he shouldn’t have met and have a child he shouldn’t have had.
So Peter B., while still trying to connect with Miles in this situation, is also telling us that “what SHOULDN’T happen still CAN happen.” It’s just that even he is taking his words at face value and doesn’t realize the deeper implications that they may have.
Miguel isn't a "spider man" as well. He is quite different. So both Miguel and Miles are quite similar in that regard. They are similar in that they are quite different, if that makes sense.
Definitely does. Remember when Miles asked him if he even was really spiderman? The most hostile person to Miles in regards to being spiderman is the least Spiderman of the group. Irony, right?
You gotta love good writing... They really know what they're doing.
I think Miles doesn't only have the "keep moving forward" card: he also has his mother's advice on not letting anyone else define him or his capabilities (by telling him he doesn't belong wherever).
I think the "i can do both" thing is to emphasize that spiderman is always supposed to chose between what he wants and what he has to do for others
These videos are some of the most insightful, interesting, and exciting analyses of good stories I think I've ever encountered. Your comments on themes, motifs, repeated dialogue and how many questions you ask afterwards, they're inspiring and indicative of a truly curious and intelligent watcher. Your commentary makes me want to progress with my own drafts and go back to analyze what I really want to say in my art, what is at the heart of why I write and draw. Really good job you've done with your channel.
edit: my thoughts on LYLA are also incomplete, but one line that really stood out to me was Miles' (paraphrased) "We're just supposed to let people die because some algorithm says so? You realized how messed up that is, right?" Throughout the story LYLA is the one providing statistics, telling Gwen when the next canon event will be, explaining how everything works, even Miguel refers to this concept of "canon events" or the "arachnohumanoid polymultiverse" in terms of a set of data being interpreted (surely by LYLA): a "model". In this video, you mentioned the risk of possibility, the naivety of taking a leap of faith every single time-the *statistical likelihood* of you falling flat on your face eventually. While I cannot yet make a thesis, I can provide this: I think LYLA's significance has to do with finding reasons for things happening, some existential or multiversal cause vs. effect. Like I said, she's interpreting data-past events-and making a model that guides characters, mostly Miguel, forward. I think she too could be placed on this spectrum you've created, and she would be somewhere in the leftmost half. She is also trying to restore the status quo, she gives the others the means and the information to do so. Whether this information is flawed, whether her model is truly representative of how the multiverse operates, I believe is the crux of "is everything actually possible?"
According to this (really interesting) take, Hobie could possibly be portrayed as an antithesis to Lyla. He follows his own anti-establishment "gut' to provide our protagonist(s) the means to change the status-quo.
@@vividsalsa9310 I agree! :D
This is by far my favorite analysis of this movie so far. It is so succinct and cuts through to the movie's core. Thank you for unwrapping this.
OMG YES THE MIGUEL VIDEO right as I'm on Part 2 on my insane Miguel rant for my Tumblr blog, which at this point has been cooking since May 31st (french release).
Regarding Peter B's "you're the only Spiderman who isn't funny", I understand it as Peter B applying the canon traits enforced by the Spider-Society - which interestingly puts Miguel as an anomaly as well. However, I do think Miguel is funny, it's in a different way: the way he yells "you're both terrible mentors" at Jess and Peter B, the way he goes "which is a stupid name" about the way he named the Spiderverse, how he calls Tom Holland's Spiderman the "little nerd from Earth 19999" when he himself is the epitome of a nerd as an engineer (see: how he names the Spiderverse, like Miguel please, "arachno-poly-multiverse". Really, Miguel), how he reacts to LYLA's cheeky behaviour... Miguel is 100% funny. He's simply not in the right headspace to be the usual Quippy Spidey, because he's very depressed and overworked and it makes him more abrasive. However, he remains funny in the way he reacts to things and remains sarcastic (as he is in the comics).
I also think Miguel is so triggered by Miles (because you can't tell me he wasn't triggered and having a mental breakdown during the train chase. He was breaking down there) because Miles, like you said, goes for what he wants. Miguel went for what he wanted, and his initial cavalier attitude in regard to Time and Space shenanigans led to horrible consequences that fixed the whole "what you HAVE to do" vs "what you WANT to do" thing he has with Miles.
Overall, Miguel needs A LOT of healing and forgiveness, which is gonna require a lot of effort and bravery from others and, more importantly, from himself. He NEEDS to do that to move forward and find himself in a healthier situation. At his current point, he's basically pulling everyone down whenever he sees someone trying to move forward, having different views (see his dismissal of Hobie), or even questioning his Spider-Society system. I am sadly familiar with someone like that and he has done a lot of damage to our friendship with that behaviour. Miguel NEEDS to move forward and heal, if not for everybody around him, then for his own mental health.
Bumping the request for Schnee to cover Andor. There’s at least 20 videos worth of interesting topics to deep dive in Andor. Character comparison between Hobie and Saw Guerrera up first?
Yeah this needs to happen
Schnee please listen to this!^ Andor is pretty much the smartest piece of star wars there is.
Yes yes yes
So... if Miles isn't "Spider-Man" anymore, what's his new alias? Kid Arachnid? Spy-D? Spin? Something all-together new? GOSH, even the movies can't escape this problem!
But, seriously, this analysis was so deep, it blew my mind and I loved it! Major compliments.
Recluse would be cool. Should probably avoid calling him Brown Recluse tho
Edit: fixed crappy grammar
@@YourMothersBeard You know, Recluse who be a pretty good name, what with a double meaning that ties into the theme(s) of the movie. Good idea.
I always thought they included Peter B literally just so they could skip over any "and how do we know you're not lying??", both an in-character choice by Miguel for any skeptical spider-totems that might've heard his story, and a meta choice for the audience too.
i think it's really interesting how most other spider-people are artists in some form: artists, musicians, photographers (it's reasonable to assume that since Beter is an aged up spiderman, he must have gone through all the motions of spiderman, and so, would've been into photography at some point), and Miguel (from what i know) is almost exclusively a stem guy. it kinda gives him a "stronger, faster, better" mentality, and reinforces his capability and desire to fix things by destroying them, or to build things to destroy other things.
Oh god, that reveal that spot is the most forward thinking character literally gave me chills bc it just FITS
A balance between the future and past is the answer, to live in the present. We've seen the consequences of Miguel's actions that made him cautious of changing the future, the dangerously uncertain future that miles ended up in wasn't exactly right either. Too much of anything is bad, which is why both Miles and Miguel were wrong, with the extreme example of no turning back being spot. That's probably what the third movie will lean towards, since the characters are still in the opposite sides of the spectrum. They're still good guys at heart with good intentions, so they will eventually meet in the middle, it's like Miles' mom's advice to move forward without forgetting the past.
Wow, at first I totally thought cb Miguel and atsv Miguel looked very different, but now I'm starting to notice that their character designs are actually pretty similar!
ATSV Miguel basically has more Mexican traits and gained a foot in height. But they pretty much have the exact same face and hair and all.
They're pretty identical. The movie just inverted his racial traits to be more Mexican than Irish.
This movie.. well, actually, this whole trilogy (at least until now) is so much deeper than I could ever imagine. So great to see videos like this one revealing so much meaning of a greatly constructed story!
This video brought tears to my eyes as someone who, not unlike Miles, has built my life around working towards a more just future for all, one most of the people around me believe is impossible just because they haven’t seen it done before. Thank you. 💜
Miguel the type of guy to want to forcefully fix your problems when you vent to him. If you don’t want that, he wouldn’t give you the time of day otherwise.
I kid, but I feel this sentiment is very present in how he formed his beliefs and the people he associates with.
Definitely, there's a big difference between the listening and the fixing reaction when people have problems, both can come from a place of sympathy but they can very easily backfire
I've been reading the comments and it got the thinking about the "doing both" thing
Something interesting that some people have pointed out is that whenever a character tries to "do both" they fail
Miles can't do the cakes, Gwen can't be spider-woman and the police chief's daughter, Patriv can't save his girlfriend and the police chief
Or, Patriv couldn't have done that... without Miles, without Help
But I think that might be what that will become, about asking for help and not doing things alone because spider-man has always been trying to juggle too many things at once, and has almost always been alone
And since this is a series that revolves around the concept of many spider-heroes and traveling along the multiverse, I believe that the "do both" will end up as some kind of message about asking for help and being more connected with other spider-heroes, and other worlds too
but that's just a theory! A Fil- wait, right, that's not a thing anymore
Yeah Mig's Mom is a piece of work.
Also I think Peter B was there in the backstory to try and help stop the collapse, probably were more Spideys running around there at the time too.