Yeah I think there would be less confusion if the card instead referred to the cost being paid for an ability by a unit, since as far as I know, orders do not count as units. Otherwise by RAW, the interaction should still work.
I mailed Bushi about the interaction, and they said it works. I don't trust the Singapore Customer Support with rulings though. Update: the English text of Boti says "when you Soul Blast by a card cost" and not by ability cost.
It's really confusing, especially for a person who wants to play this deck but doesn't know what singles to get and if it's worth getting them IF THEY EVEN WORK.
So, former judge here. Going to outline some rulings if you need to cite the interaction for future discussion. Not sure what judges you guys reached out to on here but the interaction is legal for the following reasons: 2.9.3.2. “Order” is a general term for cards that only have abilities that support units or players. "Shining Selflessness" - Play this with COST [Soul Blast (4)]! Choose one of your vanguards, and it gets [Power]+5000 until end of that battle for each card in your damage zone. Merciless Count, Botis - [AUTO](RC):When you Soul Blast (2) or more at the same time for your card's ability's cost, this unit gets [Power]+5000 until end of turn. If you Soul Blast (3) or more at the same time, COST [Counter Blast (1)], choose a card from your drop, put it into your soul, choose up to one of your opponent's rear-guards with the same grade as that card, and retire it. (Count the number of Soul Blast for one cost) Everything in Cardfight Vanguard is a "card." Cards just happen to have the following: 2.9. Type 2.9.1. The information about the type of a card. 2.9.2. Cards can have 3 different type information: main type, subtype, and special type. 2.9.2.1. Generally, all cards have a main type and a subtype. 2.9.2.2. There are some pseudo-cards (15.1) that have a special type. 2.9.3. Cards have one out of the “unit”, “order”, “heart”, or “originalDress” main types. Abilities follow the same metric as far as having a "type" is concerned: 11.1. Categories of Abilities 11.1.1. Abilities are divided into four categories; activated abilities, automatic abilities, continuous abilities, and order abilities. 11.1.1.4. Order abilities are abilities written in the text of order cards that do not have ACT, AUTO, or CONT icons. Botis only specifies that a Soul Blast 2 or more for a "card's ability cost" meaning that it can be an order, a unit, etc. Now, each main type of card has a subtype, for Orders, this is where you get your "Set, Blitz, Normal, Arms" etc. Hope this helps!
The interaction between Botis and Shining Selfishness, if it does work that way is still an on board trick that is susceptible to removal. Does make me wonder about the timing between Gravidia and blitz orders though.
I Love denial griffin. Please make this interaction work, this is something people have asked a lot. My problem is that is too generic, the only ones that should be able to use this are clans/lines that have low aggression like Eugene or Seraph Snow and not a clan/line that can make multiple attacks and/or high power attacks. And you tell me is gonna get a restand rearguard.
I agree with this. I like the idea of denial griffin. I feel the issue is just that the drajewled deck is to aggressive to have such a tool. This is why it feels insane.
@@DanielGonzalez-qk6sd true, it is fun doing it to friends but in a competitive way, it's not going to do the game any good as it may end up powercreeping the deck ALOT, as we can see from what happened in the game above lol
@@Theswann I agree that the Drajeweled deck shouldn't have access to a denial griffin effect. I just do not think a denial griffin is a problem in all instances. In this instance it is too strong, I agree. It completely shut down Maggie and then allowed the Drajewled deck to rofl stomp it using its own aggro capabilities. That is not healthy. But with a slower/less aggressive deck? I do not believe that a denial griffin would be an issue.
@@DanielGonzalez-qk6sd true but this would just completely nerf decks like magnolia while still being a powerhouse without denial Griffin against others decks, so it's just better off to make the deck work like normal(it will still be good) and not destroy decks like magnolia so that they can at least have a chance yknow? Other than that this feels really fun from a casual perspective but in like competitions with stakes, I would not want this as it is unfair against magnolia like deck players.
As far as that interaction I don't see why it wouldn't work. Unless the ruling is some convoluted way of saying orders aren't cards, or that the units skill only trigger off of units abilities, it should work. If it does though, they may have to errata the skill to say for when a "dragjewels" skill activates or make a choice restriction.
@@TopDeckHeroes Yeah, as disappointing as it is that it doesn't work, I believe in order to count, the COST brackets would have to come after a AUTO/ACT/CONT declaration to count as an ability and, therefore, an "Ability Cost".
While you are technically right the comp rules classify ability’s as: automatic abilitys, activated abilitys, continuous ability & order abilitys But to play an order you need to meet that orders requirements and costs and when its played you activate the order ability So thats why its been so confusing and hard to rule
Are you guys in the same room, it kind of looks like its just edited together, and if it is jus edited how did you do that and have the opponent see the board
Not in the same room Discord helps a lot as well as having recording equipment, so the camera is recording the same time as its being used to show the field in discord
Great god I feel bad for Alex. I mean the Black magic got served by I feel so bad, I mean you can see the depression in game. I really hope that’s not the ruling now. Other than that it was a fun game and I know Alex’s pain (Different cards same emotional effect).
Hey, quick question here, do you think Amazing Frost's effect can get the power up at times or is the card just there purely for the selective SC from hand?
@@TopDeckHeroes oh, one more thing if that's OK, do you guys think Drajeweled will continue to use draws or will it be able to switch to fronts after set 7?
Orders cause some confusion when it comes to ruling so as of right now the logic is that costs to play order cards are not connected to the orders ability
If you mailed bushi in Singapore unfortunately they are not that credible have made wrong calls in the past, does not mean however that they are wrong this time
The English text says that Boti needs to Soul Blast 2 or more by a card's cost, not an ability's cost. This is probably the text that SG Bushi based their ruling on, so let's just wait for the official Q&A or the release of Dear Days to check if it works.
@@federicodc could be possible, but alot of sg players here use Japanese text, still regardless sg bushi may have gotten that from eng text who, didn't know that's what the English text say thanks for the Info but I guess we have to wait...
![[Proxy Play] Bavsargra vs Bruce | Jun 4, 2022](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nGMZEuHY2Js/mqdefault.jpg)
![[Proxy Play] Bavsargra vs Bruce | Jun 4, 2022](/img/tr.png)
![[Proxy Play] Chronojet vs Messiah | Mar 5, 2023](/img/n.gif)
I got 5 seconds in and smiled. Glory to Greedon-Dragjewel Denial Griffin combo that probably doesn’t work but should!
The ruling has been confirmed as working! My boy Greedon is gonna abuse the hell out of this!!!
Woah.. the more crisp cameras caught me off guard for some reason lol
Nice. A Drajeweld deck fight. I cant wait to play Drajeweld deck. Im a fan of Dark States
Yeah I think there would be less confusion if the card instead referred to the cost being paid for an ability by a unit, since as far as I know, orders do not count as units. Otherwise by RAW, the interaction should still work.
Even after all the games of black magic causing others to suffer, you just had to feel bad for Alex here xD
Was waiting for the Drajeweled play-test... I cannot wait until its release... XD
Great game but if that intraction work like that let's say hi to dark States being top meta again
I mailed Bushi about the interaction, and they said it works. I don't trust the Singapore Customer Support with rulings though.
Update: the English text of Boti says "when you Soul Blast by a card cost" and not by ability cost.
It's really confusing, especially for a person who wants to play this deck but doesn't know what singles to get and if it's worth getting them IF THEY EVEN WORK.
I also mailed them, turns out Singapore bushi can't be trusted.
@WANZ WANZ apparently Singapore bushi got things wrong in the past so I wouldn't jump to conclusions even if they said it works(which they did)
im in the future the interactionworks
So, former judge here. Going to outline some rulings if you need to cite the interaction for future discussion. Not sure what judges you guys reached out to on here but the interaction is legal for the following reasons:
2.9.3.2. “Order” is a general term for cards that only
have abilities that support units or players.
"Shining Selflessness" - Play this with COST [Soul Blast (4)]!
Choose one of your vanguards, and it gets [Power]+5000 until end of that battle for each card in your damage zone.
Merciless Count, Botis - [AUTO](RC):When you Soul Blast (2) or more at the same time for your card's ability's cost, this unit gets [Power]+5000 until end of turn. If you Soul Blast (3) or more at the same time, COST [Counter Blast (1)], choose a card from your drop, put it into your soul, choose up to one of your opponent's rear-guards with the same grade as that card, and retire it. (Count the number of Soul Blast for one cost)
Everything in Cardfight Vanguard is a "card." Cards just happen to have the following:
2.9. Type
2.9.1. The information about the type of a card.
2.9.2. Cards can have 3 different type information:
main type, subtype, and special type.
2.9.2.1. Generally, all cards have a main type and a
subtype.
2.9.2.2. There are some pseudo-cards (15.1) that
have a special type.
2.9.3. Cards have one out of the “unit”, “order”,
“heart”, or “originalDress” main types.
Abilities follow the same metric as far as having a "type" is concerned:
11.1. Categories of Abilities
11.1.1. Abilities are divided into four categories;
activated abilities, automatic abilities, continuous
abilities, and order abilities.
11.1.1.4. Order abilities are abilities written in the
text of order cards that do not have ACT,
AUTO, or CONT icons.
Botis only specifies that a Soul Blast 2 or more for a "card's ability cost"
meaning that it can be an order, a unit, etc. Now, each main type of card has a subtype, for Orders, this is where you get your "Set, Blitz, Normal, Arms" etc.
Hope this helps!
hopefully lianorn is coming soon ( it my favorite of the new decks)
Why you put different starters in magnolia deck?
With the Magi Inletpuls restriction this was an idea for a magi list that might still work well
@@TopDeckHeroes we’ll at least it was better idea that zorga
The interaction between Botis and Shining Selfishness, if it does work that way is still an on board trick that is susceptible to removal. Does make me wonder about the timing between Gravidia and blitz orders though.
Gravidia would kill it first before you could play the blitz order
I Love denial griffin. Please make this interaction work, this is something people have asked a lot.
My problem is that is too generic, the only ones that should be able to use this are clans/lines that have low aggression like Eugene or Seraph Snow and not a clan/line that can make multiple attacks and/or high power attacks. And you tell me is gonna get a restand rearguard.
I agree with this. I like the idea of denial griffin. I feel the issue is just that the drajewled deck is to aggressive to have such a tool. This is why it feels insane.
snow low aggro kekw smilers
@@DanielGonzalez-qk6sd true, it is fun doing it to friends but in a competitive way, it's not going to do the game any good as it may end up powercreeping the deck ALOT, as we can see from what happened in the game above lol
@@Theswann I agree that the Drajeweled deck shouldn't have access to a denial griffin effect. I just do not think a denial griffin is a problem in all instances.
In this instance it is too strong, I agree. It completely shut down Maggie and then allowed the Drajewled deck to rofl stomp it using its own aggro capabilities. That is not healthy.
But with a slower/less aggressive deck? I do not believe that a denial griffin would be an issue.
@@DanielGonzalez-qk6sd true but this would just completely nerf decks like magnolia while still being a powerhouse without denial Griffin against others decks, so it's just better off to make the deck work like normal(it will still be good) and not destroy decks like magnolia so that they can at least have a chance yknow? Other than that this feels really fun from a casual perspective but in like competitions with stakes, I would not want this as it is unfair against magnolia like deck players.
As far as that interaction I don't see why it wouldn't work. Unless the ruling is some convoluted way of saying orders aren't cards, or that the units skill only trigger off of units abilities, it should work. If it does though, they may have to errata the skill to say for when a "dragjewels" skill activates or make a choice restriction.
The judges are saying that because the cost is for to play the order card and is bot the cost for the orders ability
So has the actual ruling been announced because that interaction is cool but it just completely destroyed magi
No official announcement but majority judges agree that it does not work
@@TopDeckHeroes under what pretext does order not count as card ability
Judges are ruling that order costs are to play the order so you may activate the ability of the order
So they are not an ability cost
@@TopDeckHeroes Yeah, as disappointing as it is that it doesn't work, I believe in order to count, the COST brackets would have to come after a AUTO/ACT/CONT declaration to count as an ability and, therefore, an "Ability Cost".
While you are technically right the comp rules classify ability’s as: automatic abilitys, activated abilitys, continuous ability & order abilitys
But to play an order you need to meet that orders requirements and costs and when its played you activate the order ability
So thats why its been so confusing and hard to rule
Where do you guys get your proxies from? 👀
We make them
Check the description of the video
Thank you!
Are you guys in the same room, it kind of looks like its just edited together, and if it is jus edited how did you do that and have the opponent see the board
Not in the same room
Discord helps a lot as well as having recording equipment, so the camera is recording the same time as its being used to show the field in discord
@@TopDeckHeroes how did you hook it up
Mounts and tripods
Great god I feel bad for Alex. I mean the Black magic got served by I feel so bad, I mean you can see the depression in game. I really hope that’s not the ruling now. Other than that it was a fun game and I know Alex’s pain (Different cards same emotional effect).
That was payback for all those Narukami G guards back in the day lol
What are the 2 cards that have this interaction??
Hey, quick question here, do you think Amazing Frost's effect can get the power up at times or is the card just there purely for the selective SC from hand?
Purely for the SC and if you get the power its an added bonus
@@TopDeckHeroes thanks, and yea I expected that too
@@TopDeckHeroes oh, one more thing if that's OK, do you guys think Drajeweled will continue to use draws or will it be able to switch to fronts after set 7?
Hand size can be an issue ao draws are at this moment helpful, more testing needed to decide for sure
@@TopDeckHeroes thanks, gonna be getting some fronts too just in case for later days
I hope it doesn't work like that because it legitimately feels game breaking.
The strategy is actually legal.
so is it because it refer to "ability cost" instead of "card cost" so it doesnt work?
Orders cause some confusion when it comes to ruling so as of right now the logic is that costs to play order cards are not connected to the orders ability
@@TopDeckHeroes but the cost for the grade 3 is apart from the ability so i don't see why it wouldn't be the same I say leave it and choice restrict
that was a good game, i feel like everyone would love to build that badass deck Drajewel dragon deck it will be a fun meta deck ever!!! lol ahahaha!!
Now we wait to get the restander we saw in the anime lol
@@TopDeckHeroes so ready for it ✨✨✨🔥🔥🔥
Bushiroad not getting there own ruling set.
should've play against decks like Overdress
Don’t make Connor cry
i cant see y that interaction wouldnt work
Because the cost to play orders in not part of the orders ability
game 1 magnolia player put himself at crit for game with enoufh to guard vanguard for 2 to pass and needed a double crit to lose for botis....
F Denial Griffin so hopefully they don't let this work in D
7:47
?
@@TopDeckHeroes Alex beat boxing lmao
Petition to allow this to work!
Edit: I mailed bushi about this they said it works so I'm confused now?????
If you mailed bushi in Singapore unfortunately they are not that credible have made wrong calls in the past, does not mean however that they are wrong this time
Dang it, Singapore bushi needs to improve! Also I still stand by my petition.
The English text says that Boti needs to Soul Blast 2 or more by a card's cost, not an ability's cost. This is probably the text that SG Bushi based their ruling on, so let's just wait for the official Q&A or the release of Dear Days to check if it works.
@@federicodc could be possible, but alot of sg players here use Japanese text, still regardless sg bushi may have gotten that from eng text who, didn't know that's what the English text say thanks for the Info but I guess we have to wait...
@WANZ WANZ i don't use discord but the mail pretty much states that as the RG just needs another card to SB it can work.
I can give you a decklist I use for drajewel if you want it
We should be good now
@@TopDeckHeroes ok