I know it's not canon but I love the Jackson creations of the various kinds of orcs/goblins/Uruk-Hai. The insecty ones, the apish ones, the beaky faced ones, the round headed ones, the porcine ones, etc. Such great make up and costume design.
I like to think that goblins and orcs are very similar yet different species. And the gundabad orcs from the hobbit like Azog are also orcs but a different breed then Mordor orcs. I’m just gonna continue pretending in my head that Tolkien meant it like that 😬
@@gabrielelder7301 So what is everyone talking about then? I just read through the hobbit again this weekend and when he talks about Goblins for example he mentions them specifically for their skill
I always thought orcs and goblins are the same, yes, but goblins are sort of "wild orcs" (not under direct control of the Dark Lord, albeit possible to influence), while orcs is used for more organized troops under the control of Morgoth, Sauron or Saruman. So, physically the same (apart from perhaps differences in training and nourishment), but one is more tribal while the other is more professional and organized and under more direct control.
My own head cannon is that the goblins are the remnants of the original morgoth orcs, or perhaps they are dwarves or Hobbits who were turned and regular orcs are elves who were turned.
I always thought these were along the lines of "Malcontents" ? Orcs being the malcontent of Elves; Goblins being the malcontent of Men; And Trolls being the malcontent of Ents, I've forgotten where I heard this. All are a malcontent of the original good?
@@aSSGoblin1488They are no longer elves, their whole genetic make up is different. There was probably some magically enhanced selective breeding involved too, with mortals and maybe even beasts. They breed as rapidly as any mortal being now. I dunno how long they can live and if there is any elven longevity left in them but considering how volatile orc culture is I doubt any orc has ever died of old age so the whole thing is moot. :) Morgoth cannot create life from scratch but he can alter what is already there, dramatically too given enough time. Trolls and different orc species are the results of his experiments.
In my reading of LOTR, Saruman was breeding orcs and men, making a hybrid species. This is in imitation of Sauron doing essentially the same thing to make his "upgraded" orcs. This is what the whole half-orcs and goblin-man was about. Saruman's breeding project to create a race of super-soldiers was part of his decent into depravity.
Yes please, a video on other orc varients would be most welcome. And perhaps at some point (forgive me if this has been covered before) we can hear about the troll-men of the Haradrim? I know there is likely little on them, but I've always been fascinated by Rhun and Harad and their peoples and cultures.
Uruk-hai were later bred by the Wizard Saruman the White late in the Third Age, by his dark arts in the pits of Isengard. In the War of the Ring, the Uruk-hai made up a large part of Saruman's army, together with the Dunlendings, man-enemies of Rohan. There are suggestions that the Uruk-hai were the result of crossbreeding orcs and men.
I have watched them like 1 time every month for the last 17 years and I never get bored of them! The best movies ever made and specially the extended versions!
I still disagree with the conflation of Uruk and Uruk-hai to be synonymous. They are not. Professor Tolkien clearly made a distinction that Uruks were the improvement made by Sauron to the original orc whereas Uruk-hai are the improvement and iterative change made by Saruman to the standard Uruk and (some would argue) were crossed with Dunlandings to create that superior species of Uruk. It was a qualm I had when you made the video on H.O.T.A. and I had hoped you would draw a greater distinction in this redone version.
100 % agree if one wants to be precise.Uruk-hai are decribed on multiple occasions as very alike to men in appearance, Uruks on the other hand not so much. The Term Orc-Folk resembles (at least in the opinion of some, including me) that they are only partly of orcish heritage. Nevertheless, I think the video is overall very well done!
I figure their "corruption" was generations after generations of trauma essentially being tortured underground until their people knew nothing but cruelty.
this. a few years of abject cruelty can change someone body and soul forever, nevermind generations of abject cruelty, enslavement and darkness, the the only light known is from burning things, until you can't even dream of stars. its heartbreaking
@@rnash999 Tolkien went back and forth with this. On the other hand he didn't want to deal with the idea that did orcs have immortal souls that could be reborn like elves. On the other hand Morgoth cannot create life out of nothing (that is the realm or Eru) so the orcs had to come out of something. So yes, mutilating and selective breeding of elves and maybe mortals enhanced with magic is still the most likely explanation.
I always viewed orcs and goblins as similar, but slightly different races. Like goblins were orcs that deteriorated into being smaller and more prone to walking on all four legs because of their smaller stature. Like how the first orcs like Adar still looked like a elf more than orc, but after generations we got the orcs we know today. So my thought was that over generations orcs kept deteriorating into goblins.
I always thought that goblins were a slightly atrophied, subterranean sub-species of orc. Different but still the same family. And I forget where or if it comes from the moves but Saruman makes it sound like Uruk-Hai are a man-orc mixture
It's somewhere in the two towers, I believe because it says something to the effect of they have an easier time in the daylight then regular Orcs and can be trained easier because they are more intelligent. Could be wrong or mis remembering though.
If I recall correctly, "hob-" was an Old English prefix meaning "small" (hence its presence in the word "hobbit"). I reasoned that a hobgoblin was a smaller variation of a goblin or orc.
Yes, I remember reading something about Tolkien actually admitted he had made a mistake by calling the larger ones "hobgoblins". So in later versions, they were renamed to Uruk-hai. But it seems the damage was already done, since it has become a trend in modern fantasy to call larger versions of goblins for "hobgoblins"...
while I agree with your interpretation of the orc terms....I must admit...that in my late teens reading the books (before the LotR movies existed) that my imagination was similar to how Peter Jackson represented the different types in LotR and the Hobbit movies...
I have always seen these as different types of Orcs! The way the books describes them makes me see it that way and the way the LOTR movies portraits that is perfect in my opinion! For example a Chihuahua and a German Shepard are different species but both of them are dogs. This topic will always be hot among Tolkien fans🔥
a chihuahua and german shepherd are actually the same species lol, thats what a "dog" is. They're different breeds, not indifferent to being different in race like people are.
What do you mean "the way the books describes them"? Be it Uruk-hai in Saruman's service, an Orcs from Mordor or Orcs from the Misty Mountains, all of them have been called goblin in LotR.
I always figured goblins were a small cave-dwelling variant of orc; "cave orcs" so to speak, while "uruk" was a shorthand name for "uruk-hai," the bigger, stronger breed of orc that comprised the Isengard's army.
There also is one thing: peeps generally assume All Uruk-hai are immune to sunlight, there actually is little clue that this is the case.It is a specific trairt of Saruman's orcs... we know some of the Orcs of Ugluks company were Snagas, lesser orcs, yet they seemingly also were immune to sunlight.So it is not entirely clear if the larger statued goblins Aragorn referred to in the scene you quoted... as Aragorn was a soldier in gondor he most likely had met sauron's Black uruks and was aware of them.
I would like to point out that when Bilbo encountered the goblins of the misty mountains they were described as big very big. in fact the great goblin was going to bite off Thorin's head.
As a kid reading the books (my first fantasy novels) I read goblins and orcs being the same thing, different name. It was Dungeons and Dragons that was the first bit of material I saw to consider them different creatures (actually it might have been the Fighting Fantasy gamebook things that I saw it first). It was advantageous for RPG's to have as much material for monsters as possible. And then heaps of novels, of course. But I could be wrong, that's just how I remember it in the 80's
i feel like the different design choice of "orks" and "goblins" is actually a pretty important subject. like the goblins in moria have spent all their time in the dark so they would have evolved to suit that environment. where as the more "orcy" orcs and the uruk-hai spend a lot more time above the ground so they would have evolved differently. so i'd say even though they aren't technically different by lore standards they really are and probably should have been more defined into different sub species from a logical perspective
A video on Half orcs would be very interesting and informative. They were completely overlooked in the Jackson films meanwhile they were prominent in the books. Also not many TH-cam videos go into great detail on Half orcs and goblin men
Also I viewed black uruks and uruk hai as being slightly different. Both are upgrades from regular orcs, but urukhai are sarumons improved orc and black uruks are saurons improved orc. With the former being slightly better of the two uruks.
Yeah definitely! We are in the middle of moving our gym and office at the moment so as soon as that is done, we will find time to do one. We've missed it!!
it was always my head canon that the goblins/orcs of moria and mordor and the northern lands differed due to their environment like breeds of animals, the moria variants adapting to the small dark tunnels and the larger northern variants adapting to harsher weather and becoming more powerfully built with mordor lying somewhere in the middle.
There were also the Gundabad Orcs who orginally served The Witch King until Angmar fell, dunno if the Witch King made any changes to them but they must have been pretty badass if they managed to capture Mount Gundabad from the Dwarves of Durin.
Would like to hear info on the different trolls. So, when somethings origin get twisted, it creates a new race. I wonder if Sméagol was a new race of creature?
The Broken Sword, have you guys played the beta, "Lord of the Rings: Rise to War" yet? It just recently came out. At least in my area. I'm not sure if this is your type of game or something but I figured I should bring it to your attention.
I'm sorry for being behind the curve on this, but these were the guys who used to be "History of Middle Earth," correct? I was looking for that channel the other day and couldn't find it. It took me a while to track this back down. I didn't even realize something had happened.
Ty so much, I like to know more about morannon orcs or black orcs from black gate of mordor. And also half- orcs of Isegard who bred by Saruman in the late Third Age. Ty so much
In my experience in Tolkien it always seemed like goblins were just some form of lesser orc or smaller orc, but that may be more due to the movies and games. I suppose it still somewhat fits?
That’s a good point, however operating under the assumption that they are the same as orcs would mean that eventually they did come back. An example being those which inhabited Moria. Honestly it’d be an interesting literary study
Gandalf mentioned Saruman breeding the Uruks to possess the traits of "orcs and goblin men" without the two races' weaknesses. Saruman called them "His fighting uruk-hai"
been doing a re-read of the Lord of the Rings, at the council of Elrond its recommended to throw the Ring in the sea so it can never again be found, but Gandalf says that there are many things in the sea, possible video idea about the creatures that lurk beneath the waves of Arda's seas?
With the first creation of orcs, I believe they are not actually corrupted Elves but mockeries made be Morgoth, in the same way Trolls are mockeries of Ents but we’re never ents themselves. I’m pretty sure, but can’t give the reference, that this was JRR Tolkien’s view in latter writings that conflict with what Christopher Tolkien put in the Silmarillion
It could be that the term goblin was used predominantly by the people around Bree and up into the Shire. So mainly by hobbits, and, given that Bilbo is the protagonist, they would be referred to mainly as such. And anyone else calling them goblins, such as the dwarves or Gandalf, would have called them that for clarity.
so basically just different races of the same people, like humans, this more easily explains the differences. Goblins such as the ones in Moria being quite small, most likely not ruled by a master and left to breed on their own. Orcs themselves having been carefully bred to exploit traits that made them better soldiers, size, endurance ferocity etc. The Uruk-Hai being the culmination of an intensive breeding program carried out by Saruman to develop the ultimate warrior race of Orcs.
Yes, Sauron made Uruk'Hai first, but I've seen suggestions that Saruman made his own version of Uruks. I don't remember where I got it from, but I believe the Mordor-Uruks are more akin to regular orcs in that they are bent over, very long arms etc., while Saruman's orcs are more human in proportion. Maybe I misremember, but if you talk about different orc breeds in the future, I'd like to know about the differences between Mordor-Uruks and Isengard-Uruks.
I wish there was a better description than just "corrupting some of the first elves". Like how did he do that? Why is their appearance different? How do they multiply? Lots of holes.
Selective breeding with magic is my guess. Perhaps even some mortal species in the mix. It was probably a long process, it is not like Morgoth took few elves and then poof turned them into orcs that we know them as today.
while i know that orcs and goblins are technically the same thing (goblin being the hobbitese word for orc), i always justified it to myself that goblins were Melkor's first generation of beings and much more beastial, and after the first age slowly spread down from the north (or fled) and ended up populating the misty mountains and the surrounding ranges. Whereas the orcs were the second generation, more defined and complete, being much smarter and having their own culture, still actually worshiping the dark lord and for the most part stayed under his control. This may be influenced from watching the movies as a kid but i still like to think of the 2 as separate, and while i dont have my books on hand to quote, i believe i read in the Silmarilion or the appendices that Melkor after the first age took the time to perfect his forces. I may be wrong here but it makes the whole thing make more sense to me
A big question I've never heard answered yet is why didn't the orcs or Uruk Hai try to claim the ring of power? I know they worship and work for Saucony but does the ring not have power over them like it does most other races?
As a "Tolkienist" for round about 40 years who is considered the ultimative "know-it-all" about Arda and Middle-Earth by all his friends I have to say: You are really making good vids. Well researched, well put together and presented for everybody to understand easily. I really enjoy watching them so far. My respects!
I find the creation and delineation of such creatures to be one of the few areas of the Tolkien legendarium that is somewhat lacking… the idea that life can only be created by Eru Iluvatar, or at least with his blessing, is nice on the surface… but there are far to many “evil” creatures on the world left to be explained. here are ideas on the topic: - Goblins are evolutionary offshoots of Elves, or maybe Men, that developed underground. they’re dangerous, but not exactly “evil,” and don’t serve Morgoth/Sauron outright, but so choose to side with them, when forced. - Orcs are “grown,” or more accurately corrupted, by “evil…” via taking a Man, Elf, Goblin, or even another Orc who had been slain in battle and burying them in some particular cursed ground, where they’re given a second life… so they’re sorta like sentient zombies. this would also explain their varied and grotesque appearance, and the scars and deformities many display. - Uruks are either just an evolution of the process in “growing” Orcs, or perhaps a result of breeding Orcs and hearty men… but that’s rather disturbing. - other creatures, like Trolls, are empty creations, something like Golems… and this lack true sentience and do not possess a soul. perhaps Valar are capable of creating “life” on their own, but only Eru can bestow a soul?
Orcs are corrupted Men or Elves - depending on which theory you prefer. This means they have not been killed, have a soul but are just horribly corrupted. It also means that biologically, they are still Men or Elves. No blessing of Eru is needed here. Goblins don't need an explanation, since it's just the English word Tolkien used to translate Orc into. In other words: goblins and Orcs are exactly the same. Uruks are indeed an evolution within the Orcish race. I belief Sauron selectively bred the biggest and strongest Orcs in order to create these. There are also Half-orcs - which are disturbing indeed. I think they are not Uruks, since they are treated differently from the Uruks by all the characters that have encountered them. One of them was able to infiltrate Bree while Aragorn was there. Trolls being golems is actually akin to a theory Tolkien has proposed in his letters. It's why the sun turns them into stone. You are correct again. The Flame Imperishable does indeed give a soul - meaning rationality, sentience and free will - to a being. It's what happened when Aule created the Dwarves for example.
I know it's not canon but I love the Jackson creations of the various kinds of orcs/goblins/Uruk-Hai. The insecty ones, the apish ones, the beaky faced ones, the round headed ones, the porcine ones, etc. Such great make up and costume design.
Thank you for making me seem like a god-tier Tolkien scholar when talking with my friends lol
@Edior Mrvn hi Hv hi
th-cam.com/video/wVXlKZC2ckM/w-d-xo.html
FACTS lol
LOL
I like to think that goblins and orcs are very similar yet different species. And the gundabad orcs from the hobbit like Azog are also orcs but a different breed then Mordor orcs. I’m just gonna continue pretending in my head that Tolkien meant it like that 😬
Hahaha exactly and thats the one that make sense to me too!
I agree and my game has special differences between them all as well as how you get a Goblin King
I agree except I play them all as modifications to the original Orc species
That's how it is in Tolkien's unreleased letters orc's and goblins are different species
@@gabrielelder7301 So what is everyone talking about then? I just read through the hobbit again this weekend and when he talks about Goblins for example he mentions them specifically for their skill
I always thought orcs and goblins are the same, yes, but goblins are sort of "wild orcs" (not under direct control of the Dark Lord, albeit possible to influence), while orcs is used for more organized troops under the control of Morgoth, Sauron or Saruman. So, physically the same (apart from perhaps differences in training and nourishment), but one is more tribal while the other is more professional and organized and under more direct control.
My own head cannon is that the goblins are the remnants of the original morgoth orcs, or perhaps they are dwarves or Hobbits who were turned and regular orcs are elves who were turned.
Ferrel orcs
I always thought these were along the lines of "Malcontents" ? Orcs being the malcontent of Elves; Goblins being the malcontent of Men; And Trolls being the malcontent of Ents, I've forgotten where I heard this. All are a malcontent of the original good?
if they are corrupted elves wouldnt the orcs be super rare? unsustainable numbers that cant really be used in war
@@aSSGoblin1488They are no longer elves, their whole genetic make up is different. There was probably some magically enhanced selective breeding involved too, with mortals and maybe even beasts. They breed as rapidly as any mortal being now. I dunno how long they can live and if there is any elven longevity left in them but considering how volatile orc culture is I doubt any orc has ever died of old age so the whole thing is moot. :)
Morgoth cannot create life from scratch but he can alter what is already there, dramatically too given enough time. Trolls and different orc species are the results of his experiments.
In my reading of LOTR, Saruman was breeding orcs and men, making a hybrid species. This is in imitation of Sauron doing essentially the same thing to make his "upgraded" orcs. This is what the whole half-orcs and goblin-man was about. Saruman's breeding project to create a race of super-soldiers was part of his decent into depravity.
Yes. Sarumans Uruk-hai are his "designer" orcs with selective breeding and mixing. They are still "orc folk" but better.
Rip to all the orcs I’ve killed in shadow of Mordor.
They deserved it for opposing ma boi Ratbag.
And they call themselves Uruks. URUKS I know they cocky but still might as well call themselves cave trolls
@@TheBayzent lmfaooooooo ONG ratbag ftw
I would love a video about half-orcs, hal-goblins, goblin-nen, and more!
A video about the half-orcs, etc. would be interesting to compliment this video.
Yes please, a video on other orc varients would be most welcome. And perhaps at some point (forgive me if this has been covered before) we can hear about the troll-men of the Haradrim? I know there is likely little on them, but I've always been fascinated by Rhun and Harad and their peoples and cultures.
Uruk-hai were later bred by the Wizard Saruman the White late in the Third Age, by his dark arts in the pits of Isengard. In the War of the Ring, the Uruk-hai made up a large part of Saruman's army, together with the Dunlendings, man-enemies of Rohan. There are suggestions that the Uruk-hai were the result of crossbreeding orcs and men.
I just finished rewatching The Lord of the Rings movies. Such a great adaptation! :D
Great video, guys!
I have watched them like 1 time every month for the last 17 years and I never get bored of them!
The best movies ever made and specially the extended versions!
@@C-Jay_Underground Yesss! :D
@@HobbitNinjaWizard Haha cheers my friend!
I still disagree with the conflation of Uruk and Uruk-hai to be synonymous. They are not. Professor Tolkien clearly made a distinction that Uruks were the improvement made by Sauron to the original orc whereas Uruk-hai are the improvement and iterative change made by Saruman to the standard Uruk and (some would argue) were crossed with Dunlandings to create that superior species of Uruk. It was a qualm I had when you made the video on H.O.T.A. and I had hoped you would draw a greater distinction in this redone version.
That's exactly what it is and you are right!
100 % agree if one wants to be precise.Uruk-hai are decribed on multiple occasions as very alike to men in appearance, Uruks on the other hand not so much. The Term Orc-Folk resembles (at least in the opinion of some, including me) that they are only partly of orcish heritage.
Nevertheless, I think the video is overall very well done!
No, Uruks and Uruk-hai are used interchangably.
@@Aurora2097 if you've read the books, that is not correct.
But if the term half-orc is used distinctively from Uruk, would that not indicate that human admixture is specific for half-orcs?
Great video guys! Keep up the great work!
I figure their "corruption" was generations after generations of trauma essentially being tortured underground until their people knew nothing but cruelty.
this. a few years of abject cruelty can change someone body and soul forever, nevermind generations of abject cruelty, enslavement and darkness, the the only light known is from burning things, until you can't even dream of stars. its heartbreaking
@@BaronCrikeyVonPesto True, individual trauma can have profound effects and Epigenetic Trauma is a very real thing. Very Heartbreaking.
And then Tolkien said it never happened and orcs didn't get made from elves.
@@rnash999 Tolkien went back and forth with this. On the other hand he didn't want to deal with the idea that did orcs have immortal souls that could be reborn like elves. On the other hand Morgoth cannot create life out of nothing (that is the realm or Eru) so the orcs had to come out of something. So yes, mutilating and selective breeding of elves and maybe mortals enhanced with magic is still the most likely explanation.
I always viewed orcs and goblins as similar, but slightly different races. Like goblins were orcs that deteriorated into being smaller and more prone to walking on all four legs because of their smaller stature. Like how the first orcs like Adar still looked like a elf more than orc, but after generations we got the orcs we know today. So my thought was that over generations orcs kept deteriorating into goblins.
I always thought that goblins were a slightly atrophied, subterranean sub-species of orc. Different but still the same family. And I forget where or if it comes from the moves but Saruman makes it sound like Uruk-Hai are a man-orc mixture
It's somewhere in the two towers, I believe because it says something to the effect of they have an easier time in the daylight then regular Orcs and can be trained easier because they are more intelligent. Could be wrong or mis remembering though.
i always thought that goblins were the ones crawling around moria as can be seen in the movie, huge swarms crawling on the walls and such
If I recall correctly, "hob-" was an Old English prefix meaning "small" (hence its presence in the word "hobbit"). I reasoned that a hobgoblin was a smaller variation of a goblin or orc.
Considering that an orc was roughly the size of an hobbit according to this video, that's a really small creature..
Yes, I remember reading something about Tolkien actually admitted he had made a mistake by calling the larger ones "hobgoblins". So in later versions, they were renamed to Uruk-hai.
But it seems the damage was already done, since it has become a trend in modern fantasy to call larger versions of goblins for "hobgoblins"...
@@HerrrLuna Yes, I had always imagined 'hobgoblins' to be larger, and that's going back to the early 80s when I was first exposed to fantasy.
cool video James enjoyed can't wait for the next one
What an interesting topic, loving these vids.
Then follow lore of the rings, they done this exact video 6 month ago
And we uploaded this on the 9th of October 2018 🙃 This is an updated version for this channel. Sooo... yeah.
@@TheBrokenSword don't mind them haters
I've never even heard of lore of the rings. You guys are better than Men of the West!
8:01 lol at the artist name
keep them coming guys.
Orcs: brutal, but cunning. Goblins: cunning, but brutal. Uruks: brutal AND cunning.
*WAAAGH!*
@@tathemrelag3123 Wrong IP, that's the one that hasn't got a unique creative bone in its rotten corporate corpse.
@@tando6266 Wow, are you a joy of the party... It was a joke, mate.
Talk about the Olog-hai. I’ve always been curious about them, their intelligence, and skill.
Just ran into this channel looking up cool LOTR scenes on TH-cam. Great channel bro, got a like and subscribe here.
Bring me an Army worthy of Mordor
Bring me a Mordor worthy of an Army!
I'd love to see more orc videos in the future!
*Sauramon should have threw some troll into the Uruk admixture for greater size and strength.Those would have something to behold.
Most orcs and goblins have phimosis or paraphimosis where as the Uruk Hai were all circumcised
thisvideo was so brilliant thank you for this
while I agree with your interpretation of the orc terms....I must admit...that in my late teens reading the books (before the LotR movies existed) that my imagination was similar to how Peter Jackson represented the different types in LotR and the Hobbit movies...
I have always seen these as different types of Orcs! The way the books describes them makes me see it that way and the way the LOTR movies portraits that is perfect in my opinion!
For example a Chihuahua and a German Shepard are different species but both of them are dogs.
This topic will always be hot among Tolkien fans🔥
a chihuahua and german shepherd are actually the same species lol, thats what a "dog" is. They're different breeds, not indifferent to being different in race like people are.
What do you mean "the way the books describes them"? Be it Uruk-hai in Saruman's service, an Orcs from Mordor or Orcs from the Misty Mountains, all of them have been called goblin in LotR.
Great video! Yes please, I'd love a video about half-orcs.
I would like you cover all orc variants.
Very informative. More orcs, please.
Interested in seeing your videos on half-orcs etc
Cheers
yes to more gobo videos please
Very informative, thank you :-)
I always figured goblins were a small cave-dwelling variant of orc; "cave orcs" so to speak, while "uruk" was a shorthand name for "uruk-hai," the bigger, stronger breed of orc that comprised the Isengard's army.
There also is one thing: peeps generally assume All Uruk-hai are immune to sunlight, there actually is little clue that this is the case.It is a specific trairt of Saruman's orcs... we know some of the Orcs of Ugluks company were Snagas, lesser orcs, yet they seemingly also were immune to sunlight.So it is not entirely clear if the larger statued goblins Aragorn referred to in the scene you quoted... as Aragorn was a soldier in gondor he most likely had met sauron's Black uruks and was aware of them.
Love to see a video of the other orc breeds like the half-orcs
Def would like to see the other variants of orc. Love the channel!
Thanks! 😊
a video about the other kind of orcs would be amazing
Love your videos. Would you be able to add subtitles to future videos? I'm deaf and subtitles not an option on your vids :)
I've seen this already in H.O.T.A but i watched it again cus WHY NOT ???
What happened to the "Hota" btw ??
Yes please make the other video, would be very interested in hearing about the other types of orcs
I would like to point out that when Bilbo encountered the goblins of the misty mountains they were described as big very big. in fact the great goblin was going to bite off Thorin's head.
As a kid reading the books (my first fantasy novels) I read goblins and orcs being the same thing, different name. It was Dungeons and Dragons that was the first bit of material I saw to consider them different creatures (actually it might have been the Fighting Fantasy gamebook things that I saw it first). It was advantageous for RPG's to have as much material for monsters as possible. And then heaps of novels, of course.
But I could be wrong, that's just how I remember it in the 80's
keep up the good work
Yes more orc talk is always good.
Is it just me or the Orcs have the coolest names in the Tolkien universe.
Would love to see a video about the different types of orc's.
Yes, let's keep this going. It's all very interesting.
Definitely need another orc vid!!
I always thought the creatures in Moria were goblins or trolls since they could so easily climb up and down the large columns ... could orcs do that?
i feel like the different design choice of "orks" and "goblins" is actually a pretty important subject. like the goblins in moria have spent all their time in the dark so they would have evolved to suit that environment. where as the more "orcy" orcs and the uruk-hai spend a lot more time above the ground so they would have evolved differently. so i'd say even though they aren't technically different by lore standards they really are and probably should have been more defined into different sub species from a logical perspective
A video on Half orcs would be very interesting and informative. They were completely overlooked in the Jackson films meanwhile they were prominent in the books. Also not many TH-cam videos go into great detail on Half orcs and goblin men
Also I viewed black uruks and uruk hai as being slightly different. Both are upgrades from regular orcs, but urukhai are sarumons improved orc and black uruks are saurons improved orc. With the former being slightly better of the two uruks.
Will you guys still do streams occasionally?
Yeah definitely! We are in the middle of moving our gym and office at the moment so as soon as that is done, we will find time to do one. We've missed it!!
I’m not sure why this popped up in my recommended but I am oh so happy it did
it was always my head canon that the goblins/orcs of moria and mordor and the northern lands differed due to their environment like breeds of animals, the moria variants adapting to the small dark tunnels and the larger northern variants adapting to harsher weather and becoming more powerfully built with mordor lying somewhere in the middle.
There were also the Gundabad Orcs who orginally served The Witch King until Angmar fell, dunno if the Witch King made any changes to them but they must have been pretty badass if they managed to capture Mount Gundabad from the Dwarves of Durin.
You got it exactly right. Thank you.
Cover all variations of orcs.
Would like to hear info on the different trolls. So, when somethings origin get twisted, it creates a new race. I wonder if Sméagol was a new race of creature?
Great stuff! More Orcs, please!
The Broken Sword, have you guys played the beta, "Lord of the Rings: Rise to War" yet? It just recently came out. At least in my area. I'm not sure if this is your type of game or something but I figured I should bring it to your attention.
Please do cover the other creature variants.
Good Video
I'm sorry for being behind the curve on this, but these were the guys who used to be "History of Middle Earth," correct? I was looking for that channel the other day and couldn't find it. It took me a while to track this back down. I didn't even realize something had happened.
Ty so much,
I like to know more about morannon orcs or black orcs from black gate of mordor.
And also half- orcs of Isegard who bred by Saruman in the late Third Age.
Ty so much
Yes please more on the other other irc variants!!
In my experience in Tolkien it always seemed like goblins were just some form of lesser orc or smaller orc, but that may be more due to the movies and games. I suppose it still somewhat fits?
Recall that at the end of The Hobbit we are told that in the days of Beorn “the last goblins were hunted from the Misty Mountains”.
That’s a good point, however operating under the assumption that they are the same as orcs would mean that eventually they did come back. An example being those which inhabited Moria. Honestly it’d be an interesting literary study
I would love to see a video regarding the other types of Orcs.
Thank you and yes tell me more. You help me decompress at the end of my day. I will say it again thank you. 😊
We definitely need a video about all the nuanced subgroups of orcs.
I feel like the term goblin is usually used when referencing a smaller orc when orc is used to reference normal sized orcs
I would love to see a video about the other differences with half orcs, goblin men, etc. Thank you for your awesome videos!
What-if video idea:
What if Gandalf never fell at the bridge of Khazad-dum, and thus continued with the fellowship?
Gandalf mentioned Saruman breeding the Uruks to possess the traits of "orcs and goblin men" without the two races' weaknesses. Saruman called them "His fighting uruk-hai"
been doing a re-read of the Lord of the Rings, at the council of Elrond its recommended to throw the Ring in the sea so it can never again be found, but Gandalf says that there are many things in the sea, possible video idea about the creatures that lurk beneath the waves of Arda's seas?
I can't wait until the movie "The Adventures of Shagrat and Gorbag: The Good Old Days"
Goblins are slightly different, they can see better in the dark and are slightly shorter I believe
With the first creation of orcs, I believe they are not actually corrupted Elves but mockeries made be Morgoth, in the same way Trolls are mockeries of Ents but we’re never ents themselves. I’m pretty sure, but can’t give the reference, that this was JRR Tolkien’s view in latter writings that conflict with what Christopher Tolkien put in the Silmarillion
It could be that the term goblin was used predominantly by the people around Bree and up into the Shire. So mainly by hobbits, and, given that Bilbo is the protagonist, they would be referred to mainly as such. And anyone else calling them goblins, such as the dwarves or Gandalf, would have called them that for clarity.
I've always been given weird looks when I refer to the "orcs" as hobgoblins. Thanks for backing me up. You should do the more expansive video.
What's the song used in the video?
What is "yes" for orc, goblin and uruk language?
How many Orcs can dance on the head of a pin? I expected more clarity from this video, but you made sure I don't care what distinguishes them.
so basically just different races of the same people, like humans, this more easily explains the differences. Goblins such as the ones in Moria being quite small, most likely not ruled by a master and left to breed on their own. Orcs themselves having been carefully bred to exploit traits that made them better soldiers, size, endurance ferocity etc. The Uruk-Hai being the culmination of an intensive breeding program carried out by Saruman to develop the ultimate warrior race of Orcs.
Yes, Sauron made Uruk'Hai first, but I've seen suggestions that Saruman made his own version of Uruks. I don't remember where I got it from, but I believe the Mordor-Uruks are more akin to regular orcs in that they are bent over, very long arms etc., while Saruman's orcs are more human in proportion. Maybe I misremember, but if you talk about different orc breeds in the future, I'd like to know about the differences between Mordor-Uruks and Isengard-Uruks.
Hey so wait was that big goblin king an urrukhai?
You need to do one called. " What if the Eagles picked up Sam and Frodo and dropped them off on Mt. Doom to destroy the ring?
I wish there was a better description than just "corrupting some of the first elves". Like how did he do that? Why is their appearance different? How do they multiply? Lots of holes.
Selective breeding with magic is my guess. Perhaps even some mortal species in the mix. It was probably a long process, it is not like Morgoth took few elves and then poof turned them into orcs that we know them as today.
Fun fact: Orc shares an etymology with "Orca", a devouring monster from the depths.
while i know that orcs and goblins are technically the same thing (goblin being the hobbitese word for orc), i always justified it to myself that goblins were Melkor's first generation of beings and much more beastial, and after the first age slowly spread down from the north (or fled) and ended up populating the misty mountains and the surrounding ranges. Whereas the orcs were the second generation, more defined and complete, being much smarter and having their own culture, still actually worshiping the dark lord and for the most part stayed under his control. This may be influenced from watching the movies as a kid but i still like to think of the 2 as separate, and while i dont have my books on hand to quote, i believe i read in the Silmarilion or the appendices that Melkor after the first age took the time to perfect his forces. I may be wrong here but it makes the whole thing make more sense to me
btw would love to see a video that covers the difference between Olog Hai and Trolls
Please do. The more you know about your enemy (Orcs) the better in defeating same.
A big question I've never heard answered yet is why didn't the orcs or Uruk Hai try to claim the ring of power? I know they worship and work for Saucony but does the ring not have power over them like it does most other races?
As a "Tolkienist" for round about 40 years who is considered the ultimative "know-it-all" about Arda and Middle-Earth by all his friends I have to say: You are really making good vids. Well researched, well put together and presented for everybody to understand easily. I really enjoy watching them so far. My respects!
I find the creation and delineation of such creatures to be one of the few areas of the Tolkien legendarium that is somewhat lacking… the idea that life can only be created by Eru Iluvatar, or at least with his blessing, is nice on the surface… but there are far to many “evil” creatures on the world left to be explained.
here are ideas on the topic:
- Goblins are evolutionary offshoots of Elves, or maybe Men, that developed underground. they’re dangerous, but not exactly “evil,” and don’t serve Morgoth/Sauron outright, but so choose to side with them, when forced.
- Orcs are “grown,” or more accurately corrupted, by “evil…” via taking a Man, Elf, Goblin, or even another Orc who had been slain in battle and burying them in some particular cursed ground, where they’re given a second life… so they’re sorta like sentient zombies. this would also explain their varied and grotesque appearance, and the scars and deformities many display.
- Uruks are either just an evolution of the process in “growing” Orcs, or perhaps a result of breeding Orcs and hearty men… but that’s rather disturbing.
- other creatures, like Trolls, are empty creations, something like Golems… and this lack true sentience and do not possess a soul. perhaps Valar are capable of creating “life” on their own, but only Eru can bestow a soul?
Orcs are corrupted Men or Elves - depending on which theory you prefer. This means they have not been killed, have a soul but are just horribly corrupted. It also means that biologically, they are still Men or Elves. No blessing of Eru is needed here.
Goblins don't need an explanation, since it's just the English word Tolkien used to translate Orc into. In other words: goblins and Orcs are exactly the same.
Uruks are indeed an evolution within the Orcish race. I belief Sauron selectively bred the biggest and strongest Orcs in order to create these.
There are also Half-orcs - which are disturbing indeed. I think they are not Uruks, since they are treated differently from the Uruks by all the characters that have encountered them. One of them was able to infiltrate Bree while Aragorn was there.
Trolls being golems is actually akin to a theory Tolkien has proposed in his letters. It's why the sun turns them into stone.
You are correct again. The Flame Imperishable does indeed give a soul - meaning rationality, sentience and free will - to a being. It's what happened when Aule created the Dwarves for example.
Orcs and goblins are not the same...