I do not think they are redeemable. I have the impression that they don’t have exactly the same level of consciousness than an actual being created by illuvatar in its original form. and in order for someone to be redeemed, awareness/insight of a high level is required. I don’t even believe all humans are redeemable, the most obvious example are psychopaths because a psychopath has no capacity for insight. This is why I don’t think the theories of the origin of orcs are ideal (them being generated from torturing and corrupting elves) I think even Tolkien wasn’t comfortable with that idea later in his life.
Yes. They just evil. Sauron doesn't even bother to create power rings for Orcs, in order to force these races serving him. 😅 After Sauron perished, there's no more orcs exist in middle earth.
I Think If You Believe They Are Irredeemable, Then You See Sides, And Therefore You Are Wrong., As Tom Bombadil Indicates, Neutrality Is Our Base, And Besides Him, I Believe That All Beings, This Realm Or Others Can Be Redeemed With The Same Free Will Of Choice. We’re All Sauron, Or Each Other Too, Now, Then, Or To Come., It’s All Part Of The Experience 😁
Orcs are not evil I think. They are just beings of evil made for one purpose. They are minions. Without a master they would surely be a meaningless race.
One of the big advantages of the uruk-hai is that they understood how restaurants work, as implied by the line "looks like meat's back on the menu boys"
Tolkien actually mentions this and leaves a gleam of hope when he mentions that deep in their miserable souls they loath the Master who is the cause of all their torment.
Not quite what he actually implied is that while the near totality of their kind are evil and fully predisposed to evil there is still a chance that you may find the occasional good natured one, or one that could be good but overall it's exceedingly rare.
ok and now that you are at this point: think about the "real" history books. Isn't the concept actually the same? You are reading the history of our earth and are supposed to believe everything without having actually seen it. What exactly makes this different from a book of fiction? You can draw two different conclusions from this: 1. Either Tolkien wrote a history so detailed and rich, that it actually became "history", or 2. The history from our earth and our humans is actually not that far away from fiction.
@@ActuallyAwesomeName Ok I didn't see World War 2 so it didnt happen. All videos of it are cgi and anyone "involved" are actors paid by the government. Got it.
Forreal. Think about how grueling that would be, especially coming up with that all that stuff and for it to all come together to where it all makes sense. I wonder how he came up with everything. Like I wonder if when he was writing the story, if he just sat down to write and it all came to him as he went forward on the spot...or if he actually had thought about it for some time and came up with the story in his mind and then after he kind of knew what he was going to do with the story and the main jist of how it was going to go, and only then after he had a good bit of the story he was cooking up over the years more or less finished and then he sat down and decided to put it all on paper. Kind of makes you wonder what his imagination was like, and what it would be like to be in his head for a day.
@@Secter84 It's not hard if you love doing this. Everything is easy once you love because you naturally become a master at whatever you're loving. I did some world-building myself and it's all a matter of answering thousands of questions. Eventually you'll answer them all over a period of years and then you start writing. But again, if you don't have a passion for this it's gonna go nowhere because it's the passion that also helps the right questions that need answering to pop into your mind, and it's passion that will make you stay late at night finding solutions, and answer more questions literally as soon as you open your eyes while your head is still on the pillow.
@@praetorian3902 some people are more creative then others. I would Argue that it’s a natural skill that is born into you and how your brain retains information compared to others but there’s no disagreeing that Tolkien an his abilities are unmatched by any writers we’ll definitely In fantasy movie Genre like Harry Potter, narnia and many others truely remarkable if you ask me
It’s why I enjoyed the Shadow of Mordor games because it gave another level of depth to the orcs. Even though it wasn’t cannon still a great interpretation.
Someone here mentioned Gollum and I want to pick up on that in this discussion. Gollum, as well as Frodo, were influenced by the magic of Sauron in the form of his ring but both were still able to do good as well as evil and I think that Gollum at least had chances to reedem himself. What I think might become hard to achieve is to heal from the damage that is done under the prolonged influence of the dark arts of Morgoth, Sauron and so on. I kinda think of smoking in this regard xD But here me out: smoking damages your lung, your lung can heal, yet if enough damage is done the process takes so much time and energy that until then your lifetime has run out. So in theory everyhting can be changed, healed and/or redeemed but in practice often this is left for generations to come.
I find it interesting that Tolkien originally planned on the Fellowship (or some fraction of them) coming across a tribe of good orcs. I think, looking at this from a theological standpoint as Tolkien would, I would have to say that the orcs *are* redeemable, and not pure evil. Had Morgoth created them, body and spirit, then they would've been; they are still creations of Eru, however, though corrupted more than any other race, and thus have a chance to choose between right and wrong. They were born into tyranny and under the direct influence of evil, so they didn't exactly have a running start. This doesn't excuse their actions because they enjoyed their evil deeds and knew it was evil, but they just didn't have a chance to experience the good that Eru had to offer.
As Tolkien's friend Lewis pointed out, death removes one's psychological material both good and bad, leaving the raw spirit beneath. So some orcs would answer the summons of Mandos when slain.
Also, apart from the eru theory. Tolkien's point of view and the writer of history is on the side of the 'good guys'. This is a classic example of who wins, writes the history books. It does seem logical there should be fractions in orc society that don't agree with the ruling power. We only never met them in the stories so far
Just trying to imagine an orc and his wife living on a farm somewhere raising their little orclings. Carting their crops to the local market and hanging out in the village pub with their buddies talking about the glory days of Sauron, bitching about the Nazgul and drinking toasts to their buddies who didn't make it or who they wound up eating, etc.
Always felt the orc was not irredeemable in that they had the emotions of just about any animal. Mental state can make up a lot of a person’s traits and Orcs in the books and movies seemed to have the capacity for joy, fun, etc. They also seemed capable of loyalty beyond servitude. This was something we talked about a good bit in my lit course on Tolkien and it was maybe my single favorite topic though we didn’t dwell on it long. For me it was their ability to be more than mindless that made them able to be more than evil. They experienced fear, they fought for their friends, they laughed and enjoyed things (albeit they were sometimes laughing at other’s misery but still, baby steps). Don’t think it would happen in a week but I do think after Sauron fell, they’d maybe come to the realization that their own best interests would maybe force them to be less “orc-ish” in their behaviors.
I like to think that ultimately orcs are redeemable. Tolkien shows that they have some good qualities. Ugluk shows loyalty to “lads too good to lose”, and orcs refer to Gondorians as “foul rebels and brigands.’ The implication is that the orcs actually believe they are the good guys and that Gondorians are evil. Orcs are corrupted and bestial, but Sauron knows they have to think they’re on the right side. Very interesting.
I hadn’t thought about it like that, but your right, Orc’s do seem to generally believe that the Dark Lord is the rightful King of all lands and as such anyone who fights against him is the enemy, and the violence kind of enemy, because they are traitors, it makes the orcs much more redeemable when you see things from that angle.
Orcs serve dark lords who use dark magic. Without dark lords to command them they are too disorganized to fight in armies and they're only dangerous in their mountain homelands where they have sheer strength in numbers. Something about being an evil valar, maia, or ringwraith who uses dark magic enables one to command armies of orcs, probably through fear but also through other methods. The fact that dark lords and only dark lords have this power over them says a lot.
@@thomasbravado Maybe they do have some kind of subtle arcane means of controlling the orcs, but Melkor made the orcs somehow, I personally like the idea that we don’t know exactly how except that they are a mockery of elves, and when he did that he also shaped their culture, remember that while Melkor and Satan aren’t a complete one-to-one comparison it’s clear that Tolkien was influenced by his faith here and like the Devil, the First Dark Lord arrogantly believes that he has been cheated from his rightful place, he would have passed on this belief to the Orc’s and from that perspective then any who stand against the Dark Lord stand between the Rightful Ruler and reclaiming his throne, and Sauron almost certainly would be considered the rightful heir to Melkor by his followers so it would be an Orcs duty to follow him as he continues his lord’s quest to restore the rightful order of things, isn’t it possible that that’s all we’re seeing here?
@@retriever19golden55 don’t bring modern politics into this discussion please I’m here to escape to Middle Earth arguing about the real world some more.
are orcs evil? "Where there's a whip...there's a way. Where there's a whip...there's a way. We don't want to go to war today. But the lord of the Lashes says Nay Nay Nay"
The song also has the line "for we are the slaves of the dark lord's war." More canonically, wasn't there a pair of orks in Cirith Ungol who were planning, if they won and survived the war of the ring, to plunder some treasure so they'd be set for life and go find somewhere nice and quiet to live? I think the orcs were aware that they were slaves.
I think Tolkin did address the question of "are Orcs completely evil?" I believe he stated that he didn't like the idea of an irrademable race; and that Orcs were creaters that could show traits of aulturism toward other members of their race and potentially outside it.
@@creolekolbytv Oppression ? By who ? I hardly see the elves oppressing them to the point that the orcs want to slay anyone who's not their skin color (elves, humans, wizards etc).
"What do you think? Are the orcs evil to the core? Are they redeemable?" In the spirit of Tolkiens world view, rather say Orcs are redeemable in theory but only if directed, hence why Tolkien himself struggled with the idea. Orcs went extinct after the trilogi in the unfinished sequel, where as when there were no intelligence to guide the orcs they had no idea what to do but infighting over scraps in caves. Sad creatures, came out of torture from which you do not return from.
Due how Tolkien's world works, the only souls allowed to leave Arda are souls of the younger children of Iluvatar (humans). Every other soul is bound to the world itself, that includes orc souls. Not sure if they got all the orcs. After all, the known Middle-Earth is part of a much bigger continent and I'm sure they simple migrated eastwards. So I doubt they really died out. And even if they did: at the end of all times, in the Dagor Dagorath, they all will rise again to take part in that battle. Same for every elf and every dwarf that ever had lived. Not sure about the Hobbits 'though. And I don't know if men are there as well. At least the heroes are.
@@michaelgiertz-rath7994 I'm willing to buy that #NotAllOrcsDie sure. Kinda excited if anyone will run with the idea of a massive zombie elf-dwarf and orc armies clash now tho.
@@michaelgiertz-rath7994 in Tolkiens world all souls were bound to Middle Earth except those of the humans. Maybe it coould be that Morgoth corrupted the soul out of orcs when he created them from elves and were orcs a kind of soulless being.
I always found it extremely catholic that he believed anyone could be redeemed yet any time someone falls to true darkness in middle earth they never get redeemed even if offered redemption they double down on being evil. Love Lord of the rings but i just thought that to be funny. But then again i am Jewish and christian so catholicism is full on a pagan ideology and most of its beliefs and ritual practices don't exist
I have a great question I think: What happens to Orc souls when they die? Do they go to the halls in Valinor like the elves they were distorted from? Are they given a second chance? Can they be reincarnated as orcs? Or can they repent and reincarnate as an elven counterpart? That’s what I really want to know.
In Tolkien's works only the Maiar and above can reincarnate into new worldly forms. Ordinary mortals cannot. This is consistent with Tolkien's Christianity, where only God, Devil and maybe original angels like Michael can be embodied in new forms.
Probably the best Orc-lore video on TH-cam! Love that you dodged the many pitfalls of the subject. Indeed, Orcs are goblins, Uruks and Uruk-hai aren't different and aren't Half-orcs. There are a few things I would like to add though. I think Uruk-hai aren't _naturally_ resistant to the sunlight, but that Saruman had trained it out the fear of the sun out of necessity, since he doesn't have access to Mount Doom and it's ashes to block the sunlight above battlefields. The indication we have for this subject is Ugluk himself, which is the most direct source we could hope for: _“Go on running said” Ugluk. “What do you think sit on the grass and wait for the white skins to join the picnic?”_ _“But we can’t run in the sunlight.”_ _“You’ll run with me behind you” said Ugluk. “Run or you’ll never see your beloved holes again, by the white hand. What’s the use of sending our mountain maggots on a trip only half-trained. Run curse you Run while night lasts."_ - TTT, The Uruk-hai But I also think the Orcs aren't directly weakened by the sun. They fear it, and this fear makes them perform less physically. After all, our mental health affects all of our physical capabilities. Furthermore, we see the fear of the sun lead to rash decisions in Orcs: many of those mountain maggots from the quote above "dashed away" during the night and were "running wildly" towards their goal. Amazingly, they were able to keep ahead of the rest of the group until the afternoon, even though they wasted their energy. The other Orcs from the Misty Mountains and the Orcs from Mordor (and since Grishnakh was described as small, these probably weren't Uruks) had little to no trouble keeping up with the Isengarders afterwards. I also think that Half-orcs and Goblin-men aren't that different, just variations within a first generation of interbreeding: some looked a bit more like Men, others more like Orcs. In the end, they all were Half-orcs since these creatures couldn't have been invented long before the events of LotR. It was only 30 years before the War of the Ring that Saruman began working with Orcs, and then he still had to rediscover the lost art of creating Half-orcs. Since the Half-orcs we see are all mature, they almost have to be from the first generation of these monstrosities. But again, great video Nerd! And yes, Orcs are redeemable, because Tolkien said so! That's all my inner philosopher can muster.
I'm still not sure there's a difference between orcs and uruks. If uruk(-hai) is black tongue for orc(s), then what do they call orcs that aren't uruk-hai? I really don't think there's a difference.
@@GothamClive "Orcs and the Black Speech. Orc is the form of the name that other races had for this foul people as it was in the language of Rohan. In Sindarin it was orch. Related, no doubt, was the word uruk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Uruk-hai, snaga ‘slave’." - LotR, Appendix F This quote states that there is a difference between Uruks and other Orcs at the end of the Third Age. You are correct in stating that Uruk-hai is Black Speech for Orc, but after Sauron's fall, Black Speech was forgotten and replaced by Westron dialects in Orc speech, but they did incorporate some words within their dialects. Uruk was one of these words. But when the Uruk-hai had been bred, which are larger and stronger Orcs, they stood at the top of the ladder in Orcish society. They claimed the term Uruk, as to call themselves "true Orcs", and called the lesser Orcs "snaga".
It's hard to say, sometimes the lore gives the impression they're kind of genetically engineered to be evil cannon fodder, but at the same time, they seem to have traits such as a sense of humour, discrete personalities, and so on.
My theory is that orcs normally _do_ have free will, but that Sauron (and Morgorth) have the power to override that to force them to act like cannon fodder.
@@di3486 They do have awareness. They have sense of self, and the knowledge that they are viewed as evil. They could not recognize that if they were mindless thralls.
In regards to redemption for the orcs, I would like to believe it could be possible because in a way they are simply yet more victims of the evil Morgoth created, much like Gollum, but also like Gollum I don't think it was ever going to be wholy successful and the damage would never be cured. Probably the kindest answer is that there is some kind of afterlife for them where some absolution and care would come their way and they can have peace and rest. Their lives must have been extremely unpleasant and I like to think they deserve release from the torture Morgoth began.
I just found your channel today and I binged a lot of the videos and can I just say, congratulations on the amazing work. And I don't know if it's you that makes all the voices from the dialogues, but if it is you, just amazing!!! Already one of my favourite channels on TH-cam.
Going with the version that orcs were elves Melkor totured and mutated, he didn't actually create life which he probably did to mock Iluvitar. So in the end he didnt really create life. He just made a mockery of what Iluvitar had done. So this made me think - then how were other creatures such as Ungoliant Spiders, trolls, and other such creatures created? Thanks for the video! Really loved it keep up the good work!!!
A more interesting question is: do orcs possess fhe life of the Eldar, or was that lost when they were corrupted and broken? Imagine being bound to the circles of Arda, even after death, as an Orc? Or are they consigned to the Void the same way Morgoth and Sauron ultimately were?
honestly no one knows. Tolkein never figured out 100% what Orcs were going to be- We can either imagine they have a fate unknown to any that Dwell in Arda- or that Mandos has a place for them in his halls, Next to the Cell he holds Feanor in for his shenanigans
Tolkien himself had several "theories" about the orcs. That they were spirits (i.e. maiar) corrupted by Morgoth to take physical form and breed, that they were animals given a simple intelligence by Morgoth, and later mated with men, both at the same time (fleshed spirits mated with animals and then men)... In a way, the not knowing part is even more alluring that hard fact
@@Reisboy_PhD what I love about Tolkien was what reverence he held for the world he created, he didn’t want to know all the answers or make them all clear he treated middle earth with life it’s living breathing and at times a mystery
I don't know what happens to them when they die but it is implied that they don't die from old age like the elves. I remember in the conversation of Sagrat and Gorbag they spoke of the great siege (siege of barad dur by the last alliance) so it seems they were alive at the time and consequently immortal.
I always just thought of them like this Orc: blind grunt followers Uruk: the most normal independent people who chose to fight with sauron but could choose to fight with humans Goblins: down down Down in goblin town
I don't think orcs as a race would necessarily be irredeemable. But most, if not all orcs in all Tolkien's would likely be too far gone to redeem fully, due to their upbringings.
I think had sauron or morgoth's "hold" over the orcs weakened, that some orcs would break away. However, the concept of them being evil is completely one-sided cause all the good races of middle earth consider them evil, so even orcs that are not under the control of sauron and morgoth would still be seen as evil. We would have to read a scenario of an orc doing something unnatural to their precieved nature for the main characters to question the orcs behavior and motivations. Like...an orc saving a human child, petting a dog, or even picking flowers lol
Sasha (my pup) would never let an orc pet him. He'd be barking at them like the meth addicts that walk by. It's weird how well he spots them. Poor souls. I guess my point is that meth addicts are like modern orcs. But not really. The homeless tend to be the easiest people to talk to. Very humble, unless they're over the top proud.
This is why I like the Bakshi LOTR movies. The orcs are shown to be slaves, without a free will. Sure, they are still violent brutes, but they don't want to be
@@hardstylelife5749 he's probably talking about the passage on the Silmarillion where Aulë creates the Dwarves, and although it was done without the consent of Ilúvatar, he grants them life since they were not at fault, and they were able to speak with their own voices.
Personally based on what I've seen in the Silmarillion primarily, as Morgoth's dissonance lies in every facet of Arda so too does Illuvatar's beauty. Though the orcs may be closer to Morgoth by nature of their manufacture via his darkest arts, they would still, by virtue of being born of Arda, hold a part of Illuvatar's sacred flame.
As a kid I always afraid "Man flesh" scene, now that is one of my funniest scenes - but only EE, Matt fantastic video, Im really excited to see your Numenor and Tolkuen 101 videos, if you still have them in plan?....
I like to think that a small minority of Orcs could given the right circumstances, redeem themselves and become neutral or even good. In other media for example Shadow of Mordor/War, it is possible to get 'friendly' orcs or even forge a truce. I've read some good fanfics about non-evil orcs as well. As an optimist I like to think this is possible!
The thing about the Shadow games is, outside of Ratbag, you really don't get a lot of Orcs who join up with Talion of their own volition, he brainwashed his various captains in his army into serving him. It's not until the Blade of Galadriel DLC that we get Orcs who willingly join up in groups.
Are all orcs evil: No. 1: It is said that of each race people fought on either side of the battle of the last alliance (besides elves). 2. Tolkien wanted to write about Sam and Frodo coming across orcs that did not partake in the war. 3. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Ilúvatar. 4. Tolkien said: ''They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.) ''
I also don't think Orcs are inherently evil, but Tolkien's Middle-Earth is just a very tough world for an Orc to live in. As an Orc you're raised by a people that has known nothing but battle and the whips of their masters for generations. All you'll ever hear and see is how everyone west of the Black Gate is evil (as your many battles will attest) and how it's better to stay on Sauron's good side. And even if you somehow break this cycle, where would you go? All the other peoples have generations of reasons to shoot you on sight. I don't think its impossible for an Orc to redeem themselves, but I'm fairly sure that those who do, and actually find employment with other races, find themselves at the receiving end of a ton of discrimination at the very least.
Well are orcs redeemable ? I would say yes, because I believe Hobbits are actually descendants of orcs who have evolved over time. They are about the same size as the smaller breeds, similar physical features (ears, night sight, sneaky movement abilities, grappling hands), and their origin can only be traced to an isolated valley during the later ages of the world that was previously swarming with orcs. I say it looks like a tribe of orcs has actually become civilized, and how poetic would it be that Sauron would get destroyed by the offsprings of his master's creation !
@@Cancoillotteman Poetic for sure. However I'm pretty sure tokens writing spell out pretty clearly that Hobbits are of the race of men. Maybe the hobbits are the progenitor race of goblins.
@@TheOneMarty makes sense- it would definately not be the norm, but it could be possible, especially if an orc were to do something extraordinarily un-orcish, like fight off radiers or protect the innocent in a moment of peril any trust between the races of orcs and men would have to be won, and would not simply be given
The statement of the Battle of Dagorlad is not meant to be taken literally. There were no orcs, trolls, dragons, spiders or wargs fighting on the good guys side. Other then that, good points.
Great Video. I always assumed that without the threat/spell Sauron had on the Orcs, they would have just been another race of people. They all scatter and go back to their homes after the Ring is destroyed. They lost their courage, their will to fight and their tolerance of daylight. The powernof the Ring has been over them so long, the only history of interaction anyone has had with them is negative. They were encouraged by the dark power, even with the Ring lost Sauron just a wraith. Gandalf mentions in The Hobbit how they are normally a shy, quiet untrusting people that are leary of men and quick to run away, but something has emboldened them to build armies, raid towns and attack travelers. Sounds like they used to only be trouble if you stumbled into a nest of them, they normally aren't looking for you. Without evil magic over them, they are just cave people. They aren't really evil... just quick to suspect mischief and to sieze an opportunity. Not much different than people with a hard life and poor leadership. Be like stumbling into North Korea. What would happen? The people aren't evil in N. Korea, but the State is corrupt, paranoid, untrusting and cowardly, and they react to any affront in ways consistent with those characteristics.
I think that if their is a possibility of redemption for an Orc, then the question should also be: was there any attempt to do it? When Gandalf tells Denethor that he still pities Sauron's servants, was there some sort of insight about a glimpse of hope for them?
The difference is that orcs and goblins don't say 'we are the fighting uruk-hai' every other sentence in the book. Edit: this is so sad but 168 likes is the most I've ever got as far as I can remember edit edit: 'If I -go- get 1 more -step- like this is the -farthest away from home- most likes I've ever -been- got'
In reference to your last question, I would think that tolkien's would have ultimately decided that orcs were capable of redemption. If only because the alternative is way too reductionist and ultimately a needless restriction for story ideas. Also would be an interesting exploration of idea that was hinted at in the appendices, that what was written in the books was not necessarily what actually happened and it was merely events colored by the victors, and deluded by edits and retelling over the millenia.
Great video as always! I can't imagine how much deep diving into Tolkien's text you do to bring us this content, thank you! Love the channel, would love to see a Troll types video too!
To consider whether the Orcs as beings twisted by Morgoth are redeemable, you have to also consider the implications of what might have happened to Frodo had the dagger turned him to wraith. One of the most beneficent of beings, surely Frodo's spirit would have been freed and redeemed in that scenario had his twisted body been destroyed. I think the difference could be found in the will of the being. The Nazgul, for example, were of an evil nature before donning the rings. It was their will which would have condemned them. The rings only enhanced their lust for power.
No, the men were not of "evil nature". They were simply men in high positions of power before being given the rings that enhanced their position in even further.
Please do a video on gondolin! By far my favourite place in middle earth and such an epic story how it was hidden from morgoth for so long. I don't think you've covered it yet would be great to see :)
Nice video, as always! So are orcs redeemable? Oh yes, if the dark powers of Melkor can twist the elves into orcs, then the more potent powers of Iluvatar can untwist them to become elves again.
@@brbdoo Balrogs are corrupt Ainur. The difference in how Ainur are corrupt is in their full knowledge of what they were signing up to become in spite of their direct connection to Eru. Unlike the Ainur, other life forms do not have such an intimate connection with Eru, and so the rejection in their lack of knowledge is not as hard.
Personally, I like the idea that the Orcs may have changed after Sauron died. That without his influence, some orcs became less homicidal, maybe even friendly. It would be cool to see communities of friendly orcs form during the fourth age, maybe even begin to cooperate and trade with the other races in Middle Earth
In the Two Towers book, there is a dialogue between two orc soldiers in which one of them says that, once the war is over, he would like to live somewhere else, "good loot" and "no big bosses". Based on that, we can assume that orcs do have free will, and serving Sauron or Saruman is not what they really want. On the other hand, the orc soldier is not saying that he would like to live in peace growing potatoes, he is still talking about looting. So while it clearly indicates that they are not happy being slaves, it doesn't mean that they are not evil. Personally, I tend to think that they have a corrupted essence, which is a byproduct of how they were created. In other words, they were created by Morgoth, which has left a permanent mark on them, so they are inherently evil. Furthermore, although they are not happy with how they are treated by their bosses (I don't blame them), there's never been an orc rebelion, an attempt to overthrow Morgoth or Sauron, or an alliance with the elves to free Middle-earth from the forces of darkness, which may be a sign that orcs somehow understand or agree with Morgoth's plans. Likewise, the elves and the valar have never thought about saving the orcs from slavery or recruiting them, and in my opinion, this is one of the most important pillars of Tolkien's universe. If the orcs are not inherently evil, then the whole story falls appart because we would have to take into consideration the fact that they are an opressed people, so we would have to reevaluate all the events from their perspective and come up with a good explanation for why no one cares for them. If the orcs are not inherently evil, then the valar and the elves could be seen as racists and cold-hearted murderers. Ultimately, I think that it's impossible to say that orcs are redeemable without butchering the whole universe.
But what about the orc women and children? Orc lives matter. Besides, we all know rings of power is more in line with Tolkien’s vision than… well… the writings of Tolkien himself.
I love the fact that even Tolkien makes his own theory as to the origin of orcs . Makes you feel like he is telling you a story he learnt about instead of being the "all powerfu"l author
I know I’m a month late, but yeah, agreed. Violent, sadistic and depraved. Are they beyond redemption? It seems, at least anecdotally with human history as our example, that some beings do reach a point of no return, and are unwilling, or unable to be anything other than what they have become.
I’d like to believe that Orcs had a code they lived by, similar to Samurai, where they served their master. When the master was killed, exiled or defeated, they became Ronin, wandering the earth.
In my headcanon, the orcs of Warcraft universe originated from a group of orcs who surrendered to the Valar in fear, at the end of the War of Wrath, who could not kill them, since they had surrendered and the Valar saw them as Melkor's victims as much as elves and men, thus this particular group of orcs were sent to the World of Draenor where there, in contact with the elements and without the influence of a Dark Lord, acquired a more shamanistic lifestyle based on warrior honor and developed a particular culture, but still retaining traces of their ancestral servants of Melkor, such as brutality, appreciation of violence, bloodlust and warlike lifestyle.
My head-canon was always that the goblin was a term that feral orcs called themselves when they lived free in the mountains, like the ones Bilbo encountered, and therefore, he used that term when he wrote There and Back Again, whereas orc, being similar to the elven term "yrch" or the Black Speech "uruk", was what they were called when Morgoth, and later Sauron, specifically bred them for their service.
Alternatively goblin may be the name used by people’s like hobbits, the Rohirrim, dunlendings etc. Whose original language was not influenced by Quendi which is the source of the root yrch for orcs and Uruk. What they were called in Khuzduk I haven’t been able to find out. Perhaps translatable into English as target perchance!
According to Tolkien, 'orc' and 'goblin' are interchangeable, and just different words for the same species descended from different languages. 'Orc' is the Elvish name descended from the Orc's own Black Speech name for themselves, 'uruk', while 'Goblin' is the Modern Aduniac (common language) descended from the Old Aduniac (ancient human tongue of Numenor) word for them, 'gobhlen'. There is no other actual difference between the two, they're the same creature, and this was something the filmmakers understandably got wrong. The Uruk-Hai were thus not bred from 'orcs and goblin-men', that's like saying you made a more powerful version of a species by just making then screw. Uruk-Hai were, in the books, implied to have made from forcibly breeding Rohannion women taken during the Burning of the Westfold with orcs and then magically accelerating the resulting pregnancies and growth to make an army of half-orcs that had all the strengths of both men and orcs but none of the weaknesses.
The only thing that may have pointed towards the direction of the Uruk-hai being Half-orcs is a statement by Treebeard - but he used faulty logic and never even met an Uruk-hai at that point in time. However, the Uruk-hai were not Half-orcs. The Uruk-hai have always been treated as full Orcs, while Half-orcs marched alongside the Dunlendings in Saruman's armies, could infiltrate the societies of Men and Hobbits without raising too much suspicion like the Southerner in Bree. Meanwhile, when Eomer annihilated the Orcs at the edge of Fangorn, he stated without a hint of doubt there were only Orcs. There is not a single instant where Tolkien even implied something like the Half-orcs being bred from the women of the Rohirrim, and certainly not that there was something like magically accelerated pregnancies and growth. That sounds more like fanfiction than something Tolkien has ever written. No, Uruk-hai were elite Orcs, but still weaker and smaller than Men.
@@MasterBombadillo It is mentioned that the orcs took the women of the Westfold. That's really about it. The rest is admittedly guesswork at what Saruman was up to. Regular orcs were indeed smaller and weaker... SLIGHTLY... than men. The Uruk-Hai were a different matter. You're correct, of course, that they are not half-orcs, but neither are they true orcs. They are something new, as evidenced specifically by one fact: they are no enemy to Anor. The sun does not cause them pain or diacomfort, as it does all of Morgoth's twisted creations... as it does orcs. This means that they are only part orc and part something else, and the orc blood is diluted enough that Anor does not recognize them as such. Then consider that Uruk-Hai are described as having roughly the same size and physical capability of a man, leading to their name: 'high orcs' in Black Speech. Add to that the taking of the Westfold women by the regular orcs of Isengard and add 2 and 2. Calling them half orcs also implies only one generation of crossbreeding, and I did not call them that. The Uruk-Hai were stated to have been BRED, which requires many generations, not just one, and specifically bred within the time Saruman joined hands with Sauron. Which was only a COUPLE OF YEARS at most. Magical acceleration of growth and maturity would have to have happened for even ONE generation of orcs to be born and grow in so short a time, let alone enough generations to breed an army of an entirely new species of orclike creatures. Especially when you remember that orcs grow and mature and age at roughly a similar speed to elves, even if they breed much faster (which is no surprise given that orcs were once elves themselves and are a twisted subspecies of that race)
@@GuukanKitsune Can you quote that passage of taking women away? Because I can't seem to find it. No, regular Orcs could be _a lot_ smaller than Men. So much so that two hobbits could march alongside them without raising suspicion in Mordor. As for the Uruk-hai, nowhere has it been stated that they were as tall and strong as Men. In fact, Gimli stated at Helm's Deep that the Dunlendings were _"over large"_ for him, while happily fighting the Uruk-hai. This implies that the Uruk-hai are smaller than Men. Furthermore, in Merry's account of the army of Sauron leaving Isengard, he specifically said _"there were some others that were horrible: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southerner at Bree: only he was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were."_ Here we see their height as a one of the features that made them distinct from Orcs - including the Uruk-hai. Which, again, implies that Uruk-hai are not as tall as Men, but "almost man-high" at best. Now, the term Uruk-hai does _not_ mean "high-Orc". It simply means "Orc-folk". During the Second Age, when Sauron tried to make Black Speech into the main language of his subjects, it was just the plural form of Uruk. But later on, during the Third Age, the Black Speech became a dead language since Sauron wasn't there to force his subjects to use it. But several words and phrases still lingered on, and "Uruk" was one of them. However, when Sauron bred these Uruk-hai and released them in 2475, resulting in the fall of Osgilliath, these Uruk-hai had claimed the term for themselves, calling the other Orcs "snaga", which means "slaves". So basically, they were saying "we are the true Orcs, you are just lower lifeforms that exist to serve us". As for the sun-resistance of Saruman's Uruks in particular. There is one particular quote from Ugluk that explains their willingness to go out during the daytime: _"‘But what are we going to do at sunrise?’ said some of the Northerners._ _‘Go on running,’ said Uglúk. ‘What do you think? Sit on the grass and wait for the Whiteskins to join the picnic?’_ _‘But we can’t run in the sunlight.’_ _‘You’ll run with me behind you,’ said Uglúk. ‘Run! Or you’ll never see your beloved holes again. By the White Hand! What’s the use of sending out mountain-maggots on a trip, only half trained. Run, curse you! Run while night lasts!’"_ - LotR, Book III Chapter 3 Take note of Ugluk's final statement: "only half trained". The implications are immense for any theory that states that the Isengarders need to have the blood of Men in their veins to be able to resist the sun. Orcs have proven themselves to be capable of great deeds even in the sunlight. The chapter "The Uruk-hai", where the above quote comes from, is a great example of this fact. In this chapter, we see the Orcs of Mordor and even some of the Orcs from the Misty Mountains keep up with the Isengarders without any problem. Yes, they hate the sunlight and this wears down on them _mentally,_ but they are able to get over it - unlike some others that _"broke away and dashed off, over a hundred of them, running wildly along the river towards the mountains."_ These smaller Orcs are squandering their energy away, and still were able to stay in front of Grishnakh and Ugluk until the afternoon - a remarkable feat physically by these creatures. Of course they would be exhausted a few hours later. However, the point still remains: Orcs react to sunlight in a different manner, and this difference seems to stem not from breed but from area of origin. Why did Saruman train his Orcs while Sauron didn't bother with it that much? Because Saruman didn't have access to the smoke of Mount Doom to block the sunlight on the battlefield - which enhances the Orcs' morale while doing the opposite to the Elves and Men they are fighting against. But even Sauron seemed to have trained his Orcs a little to endure the sunlight, as evidenced by Grishnakh's company, just not nearly as much as Saruman did. Why the Northerners didn't bother is simple: they were on their own, they trained on their own, so they didn't have anyone far more powerful than they were to make them endure this kind of training. Also, they didn't need to be bred at all. Nowhere in Tolkien's works is stated that Saruman _had_ to breed his Orcs, that he _had_ to create a new kind of Orc to compliment Sauron's armies. He began using Orcs, recruited some from the Misty Mountains, and eventually he began breeding them. And after he started breeding regular Orcs, he still hadn't even bred Half-orcs. The fact that there are so few Half-orcs in his army - a few battalions at most - is evidence for the lack of time he had to breed more of them. He _couldn't_ have bred an entire army or multiple generations of Orcs with deluded mannish blood, and nothing suggests he did. Except for one quote by a creature who's sole source of information was hearsay. A creature about which Tolkien himself has stated - even in the context of his knowledge about Orcs - that _"Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand."_
Given that they were considered creations of Melkor, and were made to do his will, I believe it's very possible that they have completely given up their free will, becoming nothing more than an extension of his will. If this is the case, it's likely that they are irredeemable in physical form as there is no further progression without their own will. However, because they were bred with men, I'm not sure how that effects their free will. What this means for if they had souls and what doom would hold sway over those is just impossible to know. Especially considering we don't even know the doom of the souls of mortals. The examples I'd like to bring up is that it's implied only Eru could grant will and consciousness to creatures as we see in the creation of the Dwarves. Morgoth could have created things in older days before he loses his ability to create, but his creations would have always been tied only to his will. This would likely include orcs(goblins, uruk-hai), trolls and the dragons and perhaps even creatures like the vampires and werewolves/wargs. The most curious would be the spiders as they are children of Ungoliant, who was definitely autonomous from Morgoth. Balrogs were Maiar so it seems as they would have their own will.
Not created by melkor. Melkor, like sauron, could not create life. They are the products of centuries of torture. They were elves. Corrupted, not created, by melkor. Tolkien stresses this many times: that pure evil can not create, that the creation of life was the one thing he couldn't do. Life was the thing he hated and coveted most.
@@IgorG89 I believe most of these (dragons, spiders, vampires, etc.) were Maiar just like Balrogs. At least the first generations of them. Or at least some kind of lesser Ainur originating from the void. Some (like Ungoliant) could reproduce on Arda, but would still be classified as some sort of Ainur, rather than a mortal creation of Morgoth.
Believe it or not, this very morning I was actually wondering if Orcs were irredeemable! I just received a copy of the very first Middle-Earth Roleplaying - The Role-Playing Game Set in J.R.R. Tolkien’s World (just the game book, though! It's the rare one with the teal and orange color scheme of a flaming city with a Nazgul leading some Orcs while a Balrog looms at the top) made by I.C.E. in the early 80s. I was reading it and began to wonder if Orcs could be turned to good. MAYBE they could in a fashion? Although, they may have to be monitored closely as I suspect that what is considered "good" or "fun" by an Orc is VERY different from us. I suspect that if they were "corrected" one too many times they would say "screw this! Good is too hard and a bother!" and would swiftly return to their evil brethren. Still, I think if one were kept on the path of good for long enough they would see the benefits. However, like they say in a galaxy far far away, evil is easier/quicker/more simple than good... 😉
there is good wisdom in your solilogy. Who determines what is truly good and which people (beings) are walking according to it? Who is the rightful judge of such things? Who is absolute and objective? It is not only easier to do evil, it tends to be more immediately gratifying but awfully expensive in every way in the long run. The cost is usually hidden and ignored.
@@SurmaSampo Yeah, the mechanics are, dare I say, quite a bit crunchy. 😉 But I love reading the enormous volume of story they created and of course the maps by Peter Fenlon are just gorgeous. I finally acquired a mint copy of the NE Middle-earth map set of his that you can cut up and form one giant map, but I don't dare do that. I am planning on scanning them in and digitally stitching them together so I can have a high quality print made of it...someday... 😉
@@CybershamanX You can ignore the crunch levels in the tables as they just lookups. It is just roll, add skill, modifiers if any and check chart. The big walls of numbers look scary but they do the work rather than making work. The designer already did the hard math. ICE systems would actually translate to computer RPGs as it is already set up as a series of lookup tables and a single process for determining the outcome of each action.
That uruk hai impression was really good, props to you, I also can't personally see sauron or saruman stooping to using seduction, melkor I can though honestly.
I think what Melkor did exactly was experimenting on Elves to create Orcs. Genetic Engineering through research from scratch. It's like he traded the Elves' specialty of being the most powerful race for the specialty of being the most numerous race, most likely to make them completely subservient to the first dark lord which would explain why the elves weren't so easily for Sauron to corrupt unlike men who are less powerful.
For me, Orcs and Trolls are very much representative of evil, just like Morgoth and Sauron, all of which are evil through and through and will never change. They cannot be reasoned with but only destroyed.
That feels more right than not. A kindness it would be to eradicate a race twisted so far away from the light. And the orc’s legacy could be one of salvation. It united the free people’s to fight an embodiment of evil nature…but not fully evil itself. Regardless, irredeemable. Best let the orcs meet their end to meet their original maker and find peace.
One thing I have always wondered about orcs: If they are descended from elves, does that mean they are immortal? If an orc manages to avoid being violently killed, will they live forever, or at least for thousands of years?
The fact that they manage to field such huge armies (often vastly outnumbering their human, elf, and dwarf foes) suggest that the answer is yes. They probably don't breed all that much faster than humans, but because older generations of orcs keep on living... their population booms.
@@trustmeits610pm2 No one not even Tolkien knows exactly how long Orcs live. But you can headcanonn. They reproduce asexually so obviously they grow faster than men
For the longest time I thought Goblin = small feral orcs Orcs = original/medium hunchback and twisted Uruk-hai = larger and stronger orcs (what orcs were originally supposed to be) Thank you for you this video, love it
I've always really liked the orcs for some reason, so I would really like to think that they are capable of being good or at least learn to live with the other races in peace. Similarly to this, I once read an interesting fanfiction about a group of Daleks who learned to live in peace with a group of humans, because they discovered it is better for them that way and then they became, more or less, friendly with the humans, because they had the time to realise that they are not so different from them after all, it was a really beautifully written fanfic. :) Now the orcs basically never had a real chance to live in peace because, since their creation, they have always lived under the rule of a cruel master, even when Sauron was gone, surely they must have felt his presence in the world. But it is an interesting question what would happen if they were given a chance to live, probably not in absolute freedom at first, and it would require a certain level of understanding and leniency from the other races of course for that to even happen, but the orcs are intelligent creatures who are definitely less monstrous than other of Sauron's servants, so I think we can at least say that they are not surely unredeemable. :) As far as I'm concerned, I don't think I would want to kill an orc without a reason just because it is an orc, and if there was a chance to help them adapt to the new world, I would love to be a part of that.
I always viewed them like Golum. Evil but at the very very center, deep deep down there is some good. But I'd imagine they are too far gone or at least too far gone to come back fully. But I'm sure over many generations they could be trained/taught how to be somewhat normal again.
Peter Jackson portrayed orcs and goblins as different but related races in LOTR and especially the Hobbit, kinda similar to their namesakes in Warhammer. But personally, I see them as different sub-sets of the same race. Goblins are essentially just smaller orcs, evolved to live in the caverns of the Misty Mountains. Standard orcs are the most numerous breed. Uruk-hai are bred by Sauron and Saruman to be bigger, thougher, and smarter than standard orcs.
Can you please answer a question for me? Legolas father was Thranduil , but who was his mother? I'm almost certain I've come across it before but can't find it anywhere. Thanks.
Tolkien never actually said who Legolas's mother was! He never even mentioned her. The Hobbit movies made up some stuff about Legolas's mother dying to orcs in Gundabad, but that has no basis in Tolkein's own writings. I think its mentioned in the video on Legolas's travels. Hope that answers your question!
Kinda got the message when an Uruk-hai showed his superiority when he chopped off a goblins head in a scuffle for food in the movie. 'looks like meat is back on the menu boys!'
During the war of the Last Alliance: 《All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only.》 This passage seems to imply that there were good orcs too, fighting against Sauron
When Frodo and Sam are in Mordor one of the orcs threatens to report the other orc for rebel talk implying some of the Orcs of Mordor weren’t all on the same side. 🤔
First this channel is amazing. I can’t stop watching! This is what I didn’t need in my life, but absolutely cannot avoid. 😅 Second, am I the only one wondering *how* they multiply?? Basically are there female orcs?
I think the Hobbit gives a view of that, Goblin Town was not under the control of Sauron, and was just goblins living out their goblin lives. They go to war at the end of the book for the killing of the goblin king, not as a slave to an evil that was controlling them. In other words, they are like most of us, well besides the fact that they kill anyone that comes to their door. :)
In Peter Jackson's movie I was impressed by the knowledge, the manners and the rhetorical skills of the Goblin King. He seemed to be a highly educated man ...
I like the path that WarCraft took with their Orcs. How they were bound to a Dark Lord by blood, but eventually freed themselves. If only Tolkien was still around to continue writing, maybe in the 4th age we would see more Nomadic, Tribal and Cultural Orcs.
I have had this discussion with friends before, and this has always been my take. For evil to exist, the creature committing evil has to be capable of also not committing evil, otherwise that creature cannot even be considered responsible for it's actions. If a creature cannot change, and cannot choose to do good, then it has no agency. That creature cannot be evil, because it cannot even make a choice. So of course at the inverse of that if the creature IS capable of choice, then of course there will always exist the choice to not be evil. In summary either the orcs cannot choose for themselves and therefore cannot be evil, or they can choose for themselves and therefore can be good. Either way, orcs or any other 'evil' creature cannot be irredeemably evil, as irredeemable evil cannot exist in this maxim.
He wrote cockney accents for the three trolls in the hobbit, so we know it’s possible. Short answer is that he may have considering this was an english tale, but to be sure you should take a look at orc dialogue, sometimes i get the feeling it could fit cockney
Cockney accents do really well for orcs imo. They’re the ultimate hated scum of the middle earth. Similar to how pirates are portrayed with cockney accents it makes a lot of sense if you look at it from that relation, both types of classes of “people” (since we are mentioning orcs) that were ultimately hated and despised. Obviously pirates in real history weren’t these amazing anti heroes that Hollywood portrays them as, albeit some but most were just bottom of the barrel scum in terms of morality. According to history of course
What do you think? Are the orcs evil to the core? Are they redeemable? Hit me with your inner philosopher! 😂
I think that they are redeemable and can't be blamed for the work of the creator
I do not think they are redeemable. I have the impression that they don’t have exactly the same level of consciousness than an actual being created by illuvatar in its original form. and in order for someone to be redeemed, awareness/insight of a high level is required. I don’t even believe all humans are redeemable, the most obvious example are psychopaths because a psychopath has no capacity for insight.
This is why I don’t think the theories of the origin of orcs are ideal (them being generated from torturing and corrupting elves) I think even Tolkien wasn’t comfortable with that idea later in his life.
Yes. They just evil. Sauron doesn't even bother to create power rings for Orcs, in order to force these races serving him. 😅
After Sauron perished, there's no more orcs exist in middle earth.
I Think If You Believe They Are Irredeemable, Then You See Sides, And Therefore You Are Wrong., As Tom Bombadil Indicates, Neutrality Is Our Base, And Besides Him, I Believe That All Beings, This Realm Or Others Can Be Redeemed With The Same Free Will Of Choice. We’re All Sauron, Or Each Other Too, Now, Then, Or To Come., It’s All Part Of The Experience 😁
Orcs are not evil I think. They are just beings of evil made for one purpose. They are minions. Without a master they would surely be a meaningless race.
One of the big advantages of the uruk-hai is that they understood how restaurants work, as implied by the line "looks like meat's back on the menu boys"
:) made me smile
@@willemvanstaden3292 made me smirk.
They were Cannibals.
@@willemvanstaden3292 Glad I made your day better! :)
@@Dinoenthusiastguy The idea of Uruk-hai sitting in a restaurant and ordering from a menu is a very funny one haha.
Tolkien actually mentions this and leaves a gleam of hope when he mentions that deep in their miserable souls they loath the Master who is the cause of all their torment.
Damn, who knew. They were also scared for their lives which inturn suggests fear is what kept them in line, not the hatred for men or others beings.
Not quite what he actually implied is that while the near totality of their kind are evil and fully predisposed to evil there is still a chance that you may find the occasional good natured one, or one that could be good but overall it's exceedingly rare.
That's problematic. That's basically the kind of attitude that backhanded racists have hen they say shit like "you are a credit to your race."
@@MisterZimbabwe and yet it's still true. #bitterpill
@@MisterZimbabwe go back
I am always in awe at the sheer amount of detail Tolkien had in all his works...like he literally created an entire history that never existed.
ok and now that you are at this point: think about the "real" history books. Isn't the concept actually the same? You are reading the history of our earth and are supposed to believe everything without having actually seen it. What exactly makes this different from a book of fiction?
You can draw two different conclusions from this:
1. Either Tolkien wrote a history so detailed and rich, that it actually became "history", or
2. The history from our earth and our humans is actually not that far away from fiction.
@@ActuallyAwesomeName Ok I didn't see World War 2 so it didnt happen. All videos of it are cgi and anyone "involved" are actors paid by the government. Got it.
Forreal. Think about how grueling that would be, especially coming up with that all that stuff and for it to all come together to where it all makes sense.
I wonder how he came up with everything. Like I wonder if when he was writing the story, if he just sat down to write and it all came to him as he went forward on the spot...or if he actually had thought about it for some time and came up with the story in his mind and then after he kind of knew what he was going to do with the story and the main jist of how it was going to go, and only then after he had a good bit of the story he was cooking up over the years more or less finished and then he sat down and decided to put it all on paper.
Kind of makes you wonder what his imagination was like, and what it would be like to be in his head for a day.
@@Secter84 It's not hard if you love doing this. Everything is easy once you love because you naturally become a master at whatever you're loving. I did some world-building myself and it's all a matter of answering thousands of questions. Eventually you'll answer them all over a period of years and then you start writing. But again, if you don't have a passion for this it's gonna go nowhere because it's the passion that also helps the right questions that need answering to pop into your mind, and it's passion that will make you stay late at night finding solutions, and answer more questions literally as soon as you open your eyes while your head is still on the pillow.
@@praetorian3902 some people are more creative then others. I would Argue that it’s a natural skill that is born into you and how your brain retains information compared to others but there’s no disagreeing that Tolkien an his abilities are unmatched by any writers we’ll definitely In fantasy movie Genre like Harry Potter, narnia and many others truely remarkable if you ask me
It’s why I enjoyed the Shadow of Mordor games because it gave another level of depth to the orcs. Even though it wasn’t cannon still a great interpretation.
canon*
Ratbag is the mvp
Someone here mentioned Gollum and I want to pick up on that in this discussion. Gollum, as well as Frodo, were influenced by the magic of Sauron in the form of his ring but both were still able to do good as well as evil and I think that Gollum at least had chances to reedem himself. What I think might become hard to achieve is to heal from the damage that is done under the prolonged influence of the dark arts of Morgoth, Sauron and so on. I kinda think of smoking in this regard xD But here me out: smoking damages your lung, your lung can heal, yet if enough damage is done the process takes so much time and energy that until then your lifetime has run out. So in theory everyhting can be changed, healed and/or redeemed but in practice often this is left for generations to come.
This is so far my favorite opinion that makes perfect sense 🙌
Or alcoholism and how it messes up your liver
Great Thinking in a creative way and logical at the same Time. Thanks ❤️❤️❤️
I find it interesting that Tolkien originally planned on the Fellowship (or some fraction of them) coming across a tribe of good orcs. I think, looking at this from a theological standpoint as Tolkien would, I would have to say that the orcs *are* redeemable, and not pure evil. Had Morgoth created them, body and spirit, then they would've been; they are still creations of Eru, however, though corrupted more than any other race, and thus have a chance to choose between right and wrong.
They were born into tyranny and under the direct influence of evil, so they didn't exactly have a running start. This doesn't excuse their actions because they enjoyed their evil deeds and knew it was evil, but they just didn't have a chance to experience the good that Eru had to offer.
Interesting comment. Where is this found in Tolkien's writing? It's a new one to me.
@@Boombah100 I believe it was in one of his letters. Couldn't tell you which one, though.
As Tolkien's friend Lewis pointed out, death removes one's psychological material both good and bad, leaving the raw spirit beneath. So some orcs would answer the summons of Mandos when slain.
Also, apart from the eru theory. Tolkien's point of view and the writer of history is on the side of the 'good guys'. This is a classic example of who wins, writes the history books. It does seem logical there should be fractions in orc society that don't agree with the ruling power. We only never met them in the stories so far
Interesting perspective.
Just trying to imagine an orc and his wife living on a farm somewhere raising their little orclings. Carting their crops to the local market and hanging out in the village pub with their buddies talking about the glory days of Sauron, bitching about the Nazgul and drinking toasts to their buddies who didn't make it or who they wound up eating, etc.
You’ve played long drunken sessions of dungeons and dragons. Admit it!⚔️🎲🎲🍻🤪
How do I get into learning about this
Have you tried watching the anime "That time I got reincarnated as a slime"?
Sounds like Essex in England.
did female orcs actually existed in the lore?
Looks like NOTR's back on the menu booiiiiz!
gosh!
Helllll yaaaaaa
That line never made sense in the movie because there were never any orc restaurants. I would like to see a redeemed orc open a vegan restaurant.
@@IndigoIndustrial 😂
Haha awesome 👏🤣
Always felt the orc was not irredeemable in that they had the emotions of just about any animal. Mental state can make up a lot of a person’s traits and Orcs in the books and movies seemed to have the capacity for joy, fun, etc. They also seemed capable of loyalty beyond servitude. This was something we talked about a good bit in my lit course on Tolkien and it was maybe my single favorite topic though we didn’t dwell on it long.
For me it was their ability to be more than mindless that made them able to be more than evil. They experienced fear, they fought for their friends, they laughed and enjoyed things (albeit they were sometimes laughing at other’s misery but still, baby steps).
Don’t think it would happen in a week but I do think after Sauron fell, they’d maybe come to the realization that their own best interests would maybe force them to be less “orc-ish” in their behaviors.
I like to think that ultimately orcs are redeemable. Tolkien shows that they have some good qualities. Ugluk shows loyalty to “lads too good to lose”, and orcs refer to Gondorians as “foul rebels and brigands.’ The implication is that the orcs actually believe they are the good guys and that Gondorians are evil. Orcs are corrupted and bestial, but Sauron knows they have to think they’re on the right side. Very interesting.
I hadn’t thought about it like that, but your right, Orc’s do seem to generally believe that the Dark Lord is the rightful King of all lands and as such anyone who fights against him is the enemy, and the violence kind of enemy, because they are traitors, it makes the orcs much more redeemable when you see things from that angle.
Orcs serve dark lords who use dark magic. Without dark lords to command them they are too disorganized to fight in armies and they're only dangerous in their mountain homelands where they have sheer strength in numbers. Something about being an evil valar, maia, or ringwraith who uses dark magic enables one to command armies of orcs, probably through fear but also through other methods. The fact that dark lords and only dark lords have this power over them says a lot.
@@thomasbravado Maybe they do have some kind of subtle arcane means of controlling the orcs, but Melkor made the orcs somehow, I personally like the idea that we don’t know exactly how except that they are a mockery of elves, and when he did that he also shaped their culture, remember that while Melkor and Satan aren’t a complete one-to-one comparison it’s clear that Tolkien was influenced by his faith here and like the Devil, the First Dark Lord arrogantly believes that he has been cheated from his rightful place, he would have passed on this belief to the Orc’s and from that perspective then any who stand against the Dark Lord stand between the Rightful Ruler and reclaiming his throne, and Sauron almost certainly would be considered the rightful heir to Melkor by his followers so it would be an Orcs duty to follow him as he continues his lord’s quest to restore the rightful order of things, isn’t it possible that that’s all we’re seeing here?
This sounds all too familiar in 2023 in America. Scary.
@@retriever19golden55 don’t bring modern politics into this discussion please I’m here to escape to Middle Earth arguing about the real world some more.
are orcs evil?
"Where there's a whip...there's a way. Where there's a whip...there's a way. We don't want to go to war today. But the lord of the Lashes says Nay Nay Nay"
Definitely canon. ;)
Laziness is not a virtue.
@@benwest3223 It's not laziness. Orcs just don't want to die, just like anyone alse.
@Gregor Heisenhorn Easy there genocide
The song also has the line "for we are the slaves of the dark lord's war." More canonically, wasn't there a pair of orks in Cirith Ungol who were planning, if they won and survived the war of the ring, to plunder some treasure so they'd be set for life and go find somewhere nice and quiet to live? I think the orcs were aware that they were slaves.
I think Tolkin did address the question of "are Orcs completely evil?" I believe he stated that he didn't like the idea of an irrademable race; and that Orcs were creaters that could show traits of aulturism toward other members of their race and potentially outside it.
In some of his writings there was a case of two good orcs.
Judging on their actions over the last 5000 years or more I'd say they're irredeemable whether he likes it or not :p
@@praetorian3902 no they’ve just been under oppression since existence for thousands of years
@@creolekolbytv Oppression ? By who ? I hardly see the elves oppressing them to the point that the orcs want to slay anyone who's not their skin color (elves, humans, wizards etc).
@@praetorian3902 is it not oppression by the dark lords?
"What do you think? Are the orcs evil to the core? Are they redeemable?"
In the spirit of Tolkiens world view, rather say Orcs are redeemable in theory but only if directed, hence why Tolkien himself struggled with the idea.
Orcs went extinct after the trilogi in the unfinished sequel, where as when there were no intelligence to guide the orcs they had no idea what to do but infighting over scraps in caves. Sad creatures, came out of torture from which you do not return from.
Due how Tolkien's world works, the only souls allowed to leave Arda are souls of the younger children of Iluvatar (humans). Every other soul is bound to the world itself, that includes orc souls.
Not sure if they got all the orcs. After all, the known Middle-Earth is part of a much bigger continent and I'm sure they simple migrated eastwards. So I doubt they really died out. And even if they did: at the end of all times, in the Dagor Dagorath, they all will rise again to take part in that battle. Same for every elf and every dwarf that ever had lived. Not sure about the Hobbits 'though. And I don't know if men are there as well. At least the heroes are.
@@michaelgiertz-rath7994
I'm willing to buy that #NotAllOrcsDie sure.
Kinda excited if anyone will run with the idea of a massive zombie elf-dwarf and orc armies clash now tho.
@@michaelgiertz-rath7994 in Tolkiens world all souls were bound to Middle Earth except those of the humans.
Maybe it coould be that Morgoth corrupted the soul out of orcs when he created them from elves and were orcs a kind of soulless being.
Well, Morgoth/Sauron created orcs as kind of weapon, do if they put in them some ,,good" this would maked orcs more useless at war
I always found it extremely catholic that he believed anyone could be redeemed yet any time someone falls to true darkness in middle earth they never get redeemed even if offered redemption they double down on being evil. Love Lord of the rings but i just thought that to be funny. But then again i am Jewish and christian so catholicism is full on a pagan ideology and most of its beliefs and ritual practices don't exist
No one can accuse Sauron of being discriminatory. That dude was all about diversity.
^ gibberish comment
@@MegaZeta I know right? Some people might look at that comment and think it was a joke….
@@MegaZetaNo it wasn't.
I have a great question I think:
What happens to Orc souls when they die? Do they go to the halls in Valinor like the elves they were distorted from? Are they given a second chance? Can they be reincarnated as orcs? Or can they repent and reincarnate as an elven counterpart?
That’s what I really want to know.
In Tolkien's works only the Maiar and above can reincarnate into new worldly forms. Ordinary mortals cannot. This is consistent with Tolkien's Christianity, where only God, Devil and maybe original angels like Michael can be embodied in new forms.
Probably the best Orc-lore video on TH-cam! Love that you dodged the many pitfalls of the subject. Indeed, Orcs are goblins, Uruks and Uruk-hai aren't different and aren't Half-orcs.
There are a few things I would like to add though. I think Uruk-hai aren't _naturally_ resistant to the sunlight, but that Saruman had trained it out the fear of the sun out of necessity, since he doesn't have access to Mount Doom and it's ashes to block the sunlight above battlefields. The indication we have for this subject is Ugluk himself, which is the most direct source we could hope for:
_“Go on running said” Ugluk. “What do you think sit on the grass and wait for the white skins to join the picnic?”_
_“But we can’t run in the sunlight.”_
_“You’ll run with me behind you” said Ugluk. “Run or you’ll never see your beloved holes again, by the white hand. What’s the use of sending our mountain maggots on a trip only half-trained. Run curse you Run while night lasts."_ - TTT, The Uruk-hai
But I also think the Orcs aren't directly weakened by the sun. They fear it, and this fear makes them perform less physically. After all, our mental health affects all of our physical capabilities. Furthermore, we see the fear of the sun lead to rash decisions in Orcs: many of those mountain maggots from the quote above "dashed away" during the night and were "running wildly" towards their goal. Amazingly, they were able to keep ahead of the rest of the group until the afternoon, even though they wasted their energy. The other Orcs from the Misty Mountains and the Orcs from Mordor (and since Grishnakh was described as small, these probably weren't Uruks) had little to no trouble keeping up with the Isengarders afterwards.
I also think that Half-orcs and Goblin-men aren't that different, just variations within a first generation of interbreeding: some looked a bit more like Men, others more like Orcs. In the end, they all were Half-orcs since these creatures couldn't have been invented long before the events of LotR. It was only 30 years before the War of the Ring that Saruman began working with Orcs, and then he still had to rediscover the lost art of creating Half-orcs. Since the Half-orcs we see are all mature, they almost have to be from the first generation of these monstrosities.
But again, great video Nerd! And yes, Orcs are redeemable, because Tolkien said so! That's all my inner philosopher can muster.
And now The Rings Of Power threw all of the above out the window, making the orcs like vampires smh
I'm still not sure there's a difference between orcs and uruks. If uruk(-hai) is black tongue for orc(s), then what do they call orcs that aren't uruk-hai? I really don't think there's a difference.
@@GothamClive "Orcs and the Black Speech. Orc is the form of the name that other races had for this foul people as it was in the language of Rohan. In Sindarin it was orch. Related, no doubt, was the word uruk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Uruk-hai, snaga ‘slave’."
- LotR, Appendix F
This quote states that there is a difference between Uruks and other Orcs at the end of the Third Age. You are correct in stating that Uruk-hai is Black Speech for Orc, but after Sauron's fall, Black Speech was forgotten and replaced by Westron dialects in Orc speech, but they did incorporate some words within their dialects.
Uruk was one of these words. But when the Uruk-hai had been bred, which are larger and stronger Orcs, they stood at the top of the ladder in Orcish society. They claimed the term Uruk, as to call themselves "true Orcs", and called the lesser Orcs "snaga".
@@MasterBombadillo Thanks for the answer.
It's hard to say, sometimes the lore gives the impression they're kind of genetically engineered to be evil cannon fodder, but at the same time, they seem to have traits such as a sense of humour, discrete personalities, and so on.
That’s what I think. They have no awareness, something fundamental to chose good or evil.
Nature vs nurture is also relevant. It could be that being born and raised in a brutal environment moulds them into what they are
My theory is that orcs normally _do_ have free will, but that Sauron (and Morgorth) have the power to override that to force them to act like cannon fodder.
Violent psychopaths also have distinct personalities and senses of humor.
@@di3486 They do have awareness. They have sense of self, and the knowledge that they are viewed as evil. They could not recognize that if they were mindless thralls.
In regards to redemption for the orcs, I would like to believe it could be possible because in a way they are simply yet more victims of the evil Morgoth created, much like Gollum, but also like Gollum I don't think it was ever going to be wholy successful and the damage would never be cured. Probably the kindest answer is that there is some kind of afterlife for them where some absolution and care would come their way and they can have peace and rest. Their lives must have been extremely unpleasant and I like to think they deserve release from the torture Morgoth began.
@Miles Doyle this was a tad too long to feel sane.
@@samuelfraley8737 The length is what gave you that impression?
@@samuelfraley8737 True... But also when people get used to Twitter posts...
I just found your channel today and I binged a lot of the videos and can I just say, congratulations on the amazing work. And I don't know if it's you that makes all the voices from the dialogues, but if it is you, just amazing!!! Already one of my favourite channels on TH-cam.
Thanks so much!! I do all the voices myself. 😊 Thank you for your kind words. So glad to hear you are enjoying the channel!!
Going with the version that orcs were elves Melkor totured and mutated, he didn't actually create life which he probably did to mock Iluvitar. So in the end he didnt really create life. He just made a mockery of what Iluvitar had done. So this made me think - then how were other creatures such as Ungoliant Spiders, trolls, and other such creatures created? Thanks for the video! Really loved it keep up the good work!!!
A more interesting question is: do orcs possess fhe life of the Eldar, or was that lost when they were corrupted and broken? Imagine being bound to the circles of Arda, even after death, as an Orc? Or are they consigned to the Void the same way Morgoth and Sauron ultimately were?
honestly no one knows. Tolkein never figured out 100% what Orcs were going to be- We can either imagine they have a fate unknown to any that Dwell in Arda- or that Mandos has a place for them in his halls, Next to the Cell he holds Feanor in for his shenanigans
Tolkien himself had several "theories" about the orcs. That they were spirits (i.e. maiar) corrupted by Morgoth to take physical form and breed, that they were animals given a simple intelligence by Morgoth, and later mated with men, both at the same time (fleshed spirits mated with animals and then men)... In a way, the not knowing part is even more alluring that hard fact
@@Reisboy_PhD what I love about Tolkien was what reverence he held for the world he created, he didn’t want to know all the answers or make them all clear he treated middle earth with life it’s living breathing and at times a mystery
I don't know what happens to them when they die but it is implied that they don't die from old age like the elves. I remember in the conversation of Sagrat and Gorbag they spoke of the great siege (siege of barad dur by the last alliance) so it seems they were alive at the time and consequently immortal.
@@ΧρήστοςΜαντόπουλος-ζ8σ It wouldn't surprise me if they spoke of the war of wrath or of the seige of angband
Saturday, what a day. Thank you Matt from Nerd of the Rings!
Dude im not even a big fan...but i love how detailed and well told your stories are
"Hobgoblins: larger, stronger, and worth more in Scrabble than regular goblins." -Abed
They also have heavy armor proficiency and a higher intelligence stat, allowing them to plan and organise forces... Oops, hobgoblins...
I love that you’re giving a nod to the artists that help bring your videos to life, as an artist, thank you :)
I always just thought of them like this
Orc: blind grunt followers
Uruk: the most normal independent people who chose to fight with sauron but could choose to fight with humans
Goblins: down down Down in goblin town
I don't think orcs as a race would necessarily be irredeemable. But most, if not all orcs in all Tolkien's would likely be too far gone to redeem fully, due to their upbringings.
No one is too far gone.
I think had sauron or morgoth's "hold" over the orcs weakened, that some orcs would break away. However, the concept of them being evil is completely one-sided cause all the good races of middle earth consider them evil, so even orcs that are not under the control of sauron and morgoth would still be seen as evil. We would have to read a scenario of an orc doing something unnatural to their precieved nature for the main characters to question the orcs behavior and motivations. Like...an orc saving a human child, petting a dog, or even picking flowers lol
Sasha (my pup) would never let an orc pet him. He'd be barking at them like the meth addicts that walk by. It's weird how well he spots them.
Poor souls. I guess my point is that meth addicts are like modern orcs.
But not really.
The homeless tend to be the easiest people to talk to. Very humble, unless they're over the top proud.
Oh, Orcs saved humans and hobbits... for later :)
@@VFella Meats back on the menu, boys!
This is why I like the Bakshi LOTR movies. The orcs are shown to be slaves, without a free will. Sure, they are still violent brutes, but they don't want to be
It's crazy how many crazy theories came out about this topic after THAT show... great video my man
He already answered that question, in a way, with his tale of the Dwarves: that the creature was not to blame for the error of its maker.
May I ask if you’re talking about a specific book/text? I would like to read it
@@hardstylelife5749 he's probably talking about the passage on the Silmarillion where Aulë creates the Dwarves, and although it was done without the consent of Ilúvatar, he grants them life since they were not at fault, and they were able to speak with their own voices.
@@ericstoverink6579 thanks a lot Eric, much appreciated :)
@@hardstylelife5749 Eric has it exactly.
@@matthabir4837 thanks for the response :)
Personally based on what I've seen in the Silmarillion primarily, as Morgoth's dissonance lies in every facet of Arda so too does Illuvatar's beauty. Though the orcs may be closer to Morgoth by nature of their manufacture via his darkest arts, they would still, by virtue of being born of Arda, hold a part of Illuvatar's sacred flame.
As a kid I always afraid "Man flesh" scene, now that is one of my funniest scenes - but only EE, Matt fantastic video, Im really excited to see your Numenor and Tolkuen 101 videos, if you still have them in plan?....
I like to think that a small minority of Orcs could given the right circumstances, redeem themselves and become neutral or even good. In other media for example Shadow of Mordor/War, it is possible to get 'friendly' orcs or even forge a truce. I've read some good fanfics about non-evil orcs as well. As an optimist I like to think this is possible!
The thing about the Shadow games is, outside of Ratbag, you really don't get a lot of Orcs who join up with Talion of their own volition, he brainwashed his various captains in his army into serving him. It's not until the Blade of Galadriel DLC that we get Orcs who willingly join up in groups.
Best LOTR channel there is. Keep it up bro!
Are all orcs evil: No. 1: It is said that of each race people fought on either side of the battle of the last alliance (besides elves).
2. Tolkien wanted to write about Sam and Frodo coming across orcs that did not partake in the war.
3. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Ilúvatar.
4. Tolkien said: ''They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.) ''
I also don't think Orcs are inherently evil, but Tolkien's Middle-Earth is just a very tough world for an Orc to live in. As an Orc you're raised by a people that has known nothing but battle and the whips of their masters for generations. All you'll ever hear and see is how everyone west of the Black Gate is evil (as your many battles will attest) and how it's better to stay on Sauron's good side. And even if you somehow break this cycle, where would you go? All the other peoples have generations of reasons to shoot you on sight. I don't think its impossible for an Orc to redeem themselves, but I'm fairly sure that those who do, and actually find employment with other races, find themselves at the receiving end of a ton of discrimination at the very least.
Well are orcs redeemable ? I would say yes, because I believe Hobbits are actually descendants of orcs who have evolved over time.
They are about the same size as the smaller breeds, similar physical features (ears, night sight, sneaky movement abilities, grappling hands), and their origin can only be traced to an isolated valley during the later ages of the world that was previously swarming with orcs.
I say it looks like a tribe of orcs has actually become civilized, and how poetic would it be that Sauron would get destroyed by the offsprings of his master's creation !
@@Cancoillotteman
Poetic for sure. However I'm pretty sure tokens writing spell out pretty clearly that Hobbits are of the race of men. Maybe the hobbits are the progenitor race of goblins.
@@TheOneMarty makes sense- it would definately not be the norm, but it could be possible, especially if an orc were to do something extraordinarily un-orcish, like fight off radiers or protect the innocent in a moment of peril
any trust between the races of orcs and men would have to be won, and would not simply be given
The statement of the Battle of Dagorlad is not meant to be taken literally. There were no orcs, trolls, dragons, spiders or wargs fighting on the good guys side. Other then that, good points.
Nerd of the Rings: His greatest Servant Sauron
Gothmog King of the Balrogs: Am I a joke to you?
Poor Gothmog, nobody remembers his deeds or cares about him, only Melkor, the only one who mourn his lost
I’d like to believe there’s a little family of nice orcs out there just livin life like Scary Terry and his family from Rick and Morty lmao
Great Video.
I always assumed that without the threat/spell Sauron had on the Orcs, they would have just been another race of people. They all scatter and go back to their homes after the Ring is destroyed. They lost their courage, their will to fight and their tolerance of daylight. The powernof the Ring has been over them so long, the only history of interaction anyone has had with them is negative. They were encouraged by the dark power, even with the Ring lost Sauron just a wraith. Gandalf mentions in The Hobbit how they are normally a shy, quiet untrusting people that are leary of men and quick to run away, but something has emboldened them to build armies, raid towns and attack travelers.
Sounds like they used to only be trouble if you stumbled into a nest of them, they normally aren't looking for you.
Without evil magic over them, they are just cave people. They aren't really evil... just quick to suspect mischief and to sieze an opportunity.
Not much different than people with a hard life and poor leadership. Be like stumbling into North Korea. What would happen?
The people aren't evil in N. Korea, but the State is corrupt, paranoid, untrusting and cowardly, and they react to any affront in ways consistent with those characteristics.
I think that if their is a possibility of redemption for an Orc, then the question should also be: was there any attempt to do it? When Gandalf tells Denethor that he still pities Sauron's servants, was there some sort of insight about a glimpse of hope for them?
The difference is that orcs and goblins don't say 'we are the fighting uruk-hai' every other sentence in the book.
Edit: this is so sad but 168 likes is the most I've ever got as far as I can remember
edit edit: 'If I -go- get 1 more -step- like this is the -farthest away from home- most likes I've ever -been- got'
Now you have 169
Just saw your edit edit lol
Now you need to say that once for every new like you get
@@lravenl I don't, because it still applies no matter how many likes I get, if I just change it a bit
@@lravenl there changed it!
Haha that is a fun adaptation of Sam's big moment
In reference to your last question, I would think that tolkien's would have ultimately decided that orcs were capable of redemption. If only because the alternative is way too reductionist and ultimately a needless restriction for story ideas.
Also would be an interesting exploration of idea that was hinted at in the appendices, that what was written in the books was not necessarily what actually happened and it was merely events colored by the victors, and deluded by edits and retelling over the millenia.
All orcs who chant Grond are cool in my book, no redemption needed.
Yes
You mean the ones that got slaughtered by Aragorn and the undead...Uh...yes they did.
You know you're down bad when you volunteer as a participant in Morgoth's orc-human hybrid program.
ayoo dude, just discovered your channel. I'm so glad you are doing what you are doing! Such a cool universe to submerge yourself into!
Thanks so much! And welcome to the NOTR fam!
Great video as always! I can't imagine how much deep diving into Tolkien's text you do to bring us this content, thank you! Love the channel, would love to see a Troll types video too!
To consider whether the Orcs as beings twisted by Morgoth are redeemable, you have to also consider the implications of what might have happened to Frodo had the dagger turned him to wraith. One of the most beneficent of beings, surely Frodo's spirit would have been freed and redeemed in that scenario had his twisted body been destroyed. I think the difference could be found in the will of the being. The Nazgul, for example, were of an evil nature before donning the rings. It was their will which would have condemned them. The rings only enhanced their lust for power.
No, the men were not of "evil nature". They were simply men in high positions of power before being given the rings that enhanced their position in even further.
Haven't long discovered this channel and had to subscribe straight away, top content that you can tell takes time to make.
Thanks! So much information in a 9 minute video! This is an amazing channel! 🎉
Nerd of the Rings!. Thank you for giving me so much lore and stories almost seen all your videos and i really love them!
Please do a video on gondolin! By far my favourite place in middle earth and such an epic story how it was hidden from morgoth for so long. I don't think you've covered it yet would be great to see :)
Nice video, as always!
So are orcs redeemable? Oh yes, if the dark powers of Melkor can twist the elves into orcs, then the more potent powers of Iluvatar can untwist them to become elves again.
Eru: you know what, screw you *untwists your orcs*
Sounds like orc mischief to me
Let's apply that logic to the Balrogs then, shall we?
@@brbdoo Balrogs are corrupt Ainur. The difference in how Ainur are corrupt is in their full knowledge of what they were signing up to become in spite of their direct connection to Eru.
Unlike the Ainur, other life forms do not have such an intimate connection with Eru, and so the rejection in their lack of knowledge is not as hard.
@Miles Doyle what does this have to do with Orcs?
,,Why can't we have some meat?" Well, we have something better- another NOTR's video:)
How about your leg? You won’t miss your leg.........
Meats
1:00 I love it when he uses this background music is sounds dreary creepy and dope at the same time
Thank you for this videos. They make understanding the works of Tolken so much easier. Plus it is fun to hear all the stories.
just discovered this channel a few days ago. first new video!
Welcome! :)
Personally, I like the idea that the Orcs may have changed after Sauron died. That without his influence, some orcs became less homicidal, maybe even friendly. It would be cool to see communities of friendly orcs form during the fourth age, maybe even begin to cooperate and trade with the other races in Middle Earth
There is a kind of orcs in shadow of War that is called the friendly and wants to end things peacefully
In the Two Towers book, there is a dialogue between two orc soldiers in which one of them says that, once the war is over, he would like to live somewhere else, "good loot" and "no big bosses". Based on that, we can assume that orcs do have free will, and serving Sauron or Saruman is not what they really want. On the other hand, the orc soldier is not saying that he would like to live in peace growing potatoes, he is still talking about looting. So while it clearly indicates that they are not happy being slaves, it doesn't mean that they are not evil. Personally, I tend to think that they have a corrupted essence, which is a byproduct of how they were created. In other words, they were created by Morgoth, which has left a permanent mark on them, so they are inherently evil. Furthermore, although they are not happy with how they are treated by their bosses (I don't blame them), there's never been an orc rebelion, an attempt to overthrow Morgoth or Sauron, or an alliance with the elves to free Middle-earth from the forces of darkness, which may be a sign that orcs somehow understand or agree with Morgoth's plans. Likewise, the elves and the valar have never thought about saving the orcs from slavery or recruiting them, and in my opinion, this is one of the most important pillars of Tolkien's universe. If the orcs are not inherently evil, then the whole story falls appart because we would have to take into consideration the fact that they are an opressed people, so we would have to reevaluate all the events from their perspective and come up with a good explanation for why no one cares for them. If the orcs are not inherently evil, then the valar and the elves could be seen as racists and cold-hearted murderers. Ultimately, I think that it's impossible to say that orcs are redeemable without butchering the whole universe.
But what about the orc women and children? Orc lives matter. Besides, we all know rings of power is more in line with Tolkien’s vision than… well… the writings of Tolkien himself.
I love the fact that even Tolkien makes his own theory as to the origin of orcs . Makes you feel like he is telling you a story he learnt about instead of being the "all powerfu"l author
I think the Uruk's are a representation of the darkest impulses of humanity.
I know I’m a month late, but yeah, agreed. Violent, sadistic and depraved. Are they beyond redemption? It seems, at least anecdotally with human history as our example, that some beings do reach a point of no return, and are unwilling, or unable to be anything other than what they have become.
That's what Orcs have ALWAYS been. I don't understand how people miss that so easily. Tolkien even said "We were all Orcs in the Great War".
Monsterfucking is a dark impulse all right. 😂
I’d like to believe that Orcs had a code they lived by, similar to Samurai, where they served their master. When the master was killed, exiled or defeated, they became Ronin, wandering the earth.
In my headcanon, the orcs of Warcraft universe originated from a group of orcs who surrendered to the Valar in fear, at the end of the War of Wrath, who could not kill them, since they had surrendered and the Valar saw them as Melkor's victims as much as elves and men, thus this particular group of orcs were sent to the World of Draenor where there, in contact with the elements and without the influence of a Dark Lord, acquired a more shamanistic lifestyle based on warrior honor and developed a particular culture, but still retaining traces of their ancestral servants of Melkor, such as brutality, appreciation of violence, bloodlust and warlike lifestyle.
That's awesome!
@@jojodelivery5916 Thanks friend, are you also a fan of Warcraft?
That does mean that eventually, they fell under the influence of yet another Dark Lord.
Only just found this channel. Amazing knowledge. Loving it.
I love the inclusion of all the artwork in this channel. That Treebeard is amazing
My head-canon was always that the goblin was a term that feral orcs called themselves when they lived free in the mountains, like the ones Bilbo encountered, and therefore, he used that term when he wrote There and Back Again, whereas orc, being similar to the elven term "yrch" or the Black Speech "uruk", was what they were called when Morgoth, and later Sauron, specifically bred them for their service.
Alternatively goblin may be the name used by people’s like hobbits, the Rohirrim, dunlendings etc. Whose original language was not influenced by Quendi which is the source of the root yrch for orcs and Uruk. What they were called in Khuzduk I haven’t been able to find out. Perhaps translatable into English as target perchance!
There's also the sindarin term "urak-kai" meaning "dark creature" iirc
@@damonatherstone9195 No, there is not.
@@Tar-Elenion maybe my source is unreliable then lol
@@damonatherstone9195 What was your source?
According to Tolkien, 'orc' and 'goblin' are interchangeable, and just different words for the same species descended from different languages. 'Orc' is the Elvish name descended from the Orc's own Black Speech name for themselves, 'uruk', while 'Goblin' is the Modern Aduniac (common language) descended from the Old Aduniac (ancient human tongue of Numenor) word for them, 'gobhlen'. There is no other actual difference between the two, they're the same creature, and this was something the filmmakers understandably got wrong.
The Uruk-Hai were thus not bred from 'orcs and goblin-men', that's like saying you made a more powerful version of a species by just making then screw.
Uruk-Hai were, in the books, implied to have made from forcibly breeding Rohannion women taken during the Burning of the Westfold with orcs and then magically accelerating the resulting pregnancies and growth to make an army of half-orcs that had all the strengths of both men and orcs but none of the weaknesses.
The only thing that may have pointed towards the direction of the Uruk-hai being Half-orcs is a statement by Treebeard - but he used faulty logic and never even met an Uruk-hai at that point in time.
However, the Uruk-hai were not Half-orcs. The Uruk-hai have always been treated as full Orcs, while Half-orcs marched alongside the Dunlendings in Saruman's armies, could infiltrate the societies of Men and Hobbits without raising too much suspicion like the Southerner in Bree. Meanwhile, when Eomer annihilated the Orcs at the edge of Fangorn, he stated without a hint of doubt there were only Orcs.
There is not a single instant where Tolkien even implied something like the Half-orcs being bred from the women of the Rohirrim, and certainly not that there was something like magically accelerated pregnancies and growth. That sounds more like fanfiction than something Tolkien has ever written.
No, Uruk-hai were elite Orcs, but still weaker and smaller than Men.
@@MasterBombadillo It is mentioned that the orcs took the women of the Westfold. That's really about it. The rest is admittedly guesswork at what Saruman was up to.
Regular orcs were indeed smaller and weaker... SLIGHTLY... than men. The Uruk-Hai were a different matter.
You're correct, of course, that they are not half-orcs, but neither are they true orcs. They are something new, as evidenced specifically by one fact: they are no enemy to Anor. The sun does not cause them pain or diacomfort, as it does all of Morgoth's twisted creations... as it does orcs. This means that they are only part orc and part something else, and the orc blood is diluted enough that Anor does not recognize them as such. Then consider that Uruk-Hai are described as having roughly the same size and physical capability of a man, leading to their name: 'high orcs' in Black Speech. Add to that the taking of the Westfold women by the regular orcs of Isengard and add 2 and 2.
Calling them half orcs also implies only one generation of crossbreeding, and I did not call them that. The Uruk-Hai were stated to have been BRED, which requires many generations, not just one, and specifically bred within the time Saruman joined hands with Sauron. Which was only a COUPLE OF YEARS at most. Magical acceleration of growth and maturity would have to have happened for even ONE generation of orcs to be born and grow in so short a time, let alone enough generations to breed an army of an entirely new species of orclike creatures.
Especially when you remember that orcs grow and mature and age at roughly a similar speed to elves, even if they breed much faster (which is no surprise given that orcs were once elves themselves and are a twisted subspecies of that race)
@@GuukanKitsune Can you quote that passage of taking women away? Because I can't seem to find it.
No, regular Orcs could be _a lot_ smaller than Men. So much so that two hobbits could march alongside them without raising suspicion in Mordor. As for the Uruk-hai, nowhere has it been stated that they were as tall and strong as Men. In fact, Gimli stated at Helm's Deep that the Dunlendings were _"over large"_ for him, while happily fighting the Uruk-hai. This implies that the Uruk-hai are smaller than Men. Furthermore, in Merry's account of the army of Sauron leaving Isengard, he specifically said _"there were some others that were horrible: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southerner at Bree: only he was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were."_ Here we see their height as a one of the features that made them distinct from Orcs - including the Uruk-hai. Which, again, implies that Uruk-hai are not as tall as Men, but "almost man-high" at best.
Now, the term Uruk-hai does _not_ mean "high-Orc". It simply means "Orc-folk". During the Second Age, when Sauron tried to make Black Speech into the main language of his subjects, it was just the plural form of Uruk. But later on, during the Third Age, the Black Speech became a dead language since Sauron wasn't there to force his subjects to use it. But several words and phrases still lingered on, and "Uruk" was one of them. However, when Sauron bred these Uruk-hai and released them in 2475, resulting in the fall of Osgilliath, these Uruk-hai had claimed the term for themselves, calling the other Orcs "snaga", which means "slaves". So basically, they were saying "we are the true Orcs, you are just lower lifeforms that exist to serve us".
As for the sun-resistance of Saruman's Uruks in particular. There is one particular quote from Ugluk that explains their willingness to go out during the daytime:
_"‘But what are we going to do at sunrise?’ said some of the Northerners._
_‘Go on running,’ said Uglúk. ‘What do you think? Sit on the grass and wait for the Whiteskins to join the picnic?’_
_‘But we can’t run in the sunlight.’_
_‘You’ll run with me behind you,’ said Uglúk. ‘Run! Or you’ll never see your beloved holes again. By the White Hand! What’s the use of sending out mountain-maggots on a trip, only half trained. Run, curse you! Run while night lasts!’"_ - LotR, Book III Chapter 3
Take note of Ugluk's final statement: "only half trained". The implications are immense for any theory that states that the Isengarders need to have the blood of Men in their veins to be able to resist the sun.
Orcs have proven themselves to be capable of great deeds even in the sunlight. The chapter "The Uruk-hai", where the above quote comes from, is a great example of this fact. In this chapter, we see the Orcs of Mordor and even some of the Orcs from the Misty Mountains keep up with the Isengarders without any problem. Yes, they hate the sunlight and this wears down on them _mentally,_ but they are able to get over it - unlike some others that _"broke away and dashed off, over a hundred of them, running wildly along the river towards the mountains."_ These smaller Orcs are squandering their energy away, and still were able to stay in front of Grishnakh and Ugluk until the afternoon - a remarkable feat physically by these creatures. Of course they would be exhausted a few hours later. However, the point still remains: Orcs react to sunlight in a different manner, and this difference seems to stem not from breed but from area of origin.
Why did Saruman train his Orcs while Sauron didn't bother with it that much? Because Saruman didn't have access to the smoke of Mount Doom to block the sunlight on the battlefield - which enhances the Orcs' morale while doing the opposite to the Elves and Men they are fighting against. But even Sauron seemed to have trained his Orcs a little to endure the sunlight, as evidenced by Grishnakh's company, just not nearly as much as Saruman did. Why the Northerners didn't bother is simple: they were on their own, they trained on their own, so they didn't have anyone far more powerful than they were to make them endure this kind of training.
Also, they didn't need to be bred at all. Nowhere in Tolkien's works is stated that Saruman _had_ to breed his Orcs, that he _had_ to create a new kind of Orc to compliment Sauron's armies. He began using Orcs, recruited some from the Misty Mountains, and eventually he began breeding them. And after he started breeding regular Orcs, he still hadn't even bred Half-orcs. The fact that there are so few Half-orcs in his army - a few battalions at most - is evidence for the lack of time he had to breed more of them. He _couldn't_ have bred an entire army or multiple generations of Orcs with deluded mannish blood, and nothing suggests he did. Except for one quote by a creature who's sole source of information was hearsay. A creature about which Tolkien himself has stated - even in the context of his knowledge about Orcs - that _"Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand."_
*SAURON:* _"You there, orc! What is two times two?"_
*ORC:* _"…four?"_
*SAURON:* _"Good…"_
Great video! Thank you so much for your research!
Given that they were considered creations of Melkor, and were made to do his will, I believe it's very possible that they have completely given up their free will, becoming nothing more than an extension of his will. If this is the case, it's likely that they are irredeemable in physical form as there is no further progression without their own will. However, because they were bred with men, I'm not sure how that effects their free will. What this means for if they had souls and what doom would hold sway over those is just impossible to know. Especially considering we don't even know the doom of the souls of mortals.
The examples I'd like to bring up is that it's implied only Eru could grant will and consciousness to creatures as we see in the creation of the Dwarves. Morgoth could have created things in older days before he loses his ability to create, but his creations would have always been tied only to his will. This would likely include orcs(goblins, uruk-hai), trolls and the dragons and perhaps even creatures like the vampires and werewolves/wargs. The most curious would be the spiders as they are children of Ungoliant, who was definitely autonomous from Morgoth. Balrogs were Maiar so it seems as they would have their own will.
Not created by melkor. Melkor, like sauron, could not create life. They are the products of centuries of torture. They were elves. Corrupted, not created, by melkor. Tolkien stresses this many times: that pure evil can not create, that the creation of life was the one thing he couldn't do. Life was the thing he hated and coveted most.
@@dominicyelin but what about dragons then?
@@IgorG89 I believe most of these (dragons, spiders, vampires, etc.) were Maiar just like Balrogs. At least the first generations of them. Or at least some kind of lesser Ainur originating from the void. Some (like Ungoliant) could reproduce on Arda, but would still be classified as some sort of Ainur, rather than a mortal creation of Morgoth.
Believe it or not, this very morning I was actually wondering if Orcs were irredeemable! I just received a copy of the very first Middle-Earth Roleplaying - The Role-Playing Game Set in J.R.R. Tolkien’s World (just the game book, though! It's the rare one with the teal and orange color scheme of a flaming city with a Nazgul leading some Orcs while a Balrog looms at the top) made by I.C.E. in the early 80s. I was reading it and began to wonder if Orcs could be turned to good. MAYBE they could in a fashion? Although, they may have to be monitored closely as I suspect that what is considered "good" or "fun" by an Orc is VERY different from us. I suspect that if they were "corrected" one too many times they would say "screw this! Good is too hard and a bother!" and would swiftly return to their evil brethren. Still, I think if one were kept on the path of good for long enough they would see the benefits. However, like they say in a galaxy far far away, evil is easier/quicker/more simple than good... 😉
there is good wisdom in your solilogy. Who determines what is truly good and which people (beings) are walking according to it? Who is the rightful judge of such things? Who is absolute and objective? It is not only easier to do evil, it tends to be more immediately gratifying but awfully expensive in every way in the long run. The cost is usually hidden and ignored.
Reasonably good RPG with awful editing. It is basically a trimmed down setting specific version of Rolemaster. Very different from modern games.
@@SurmaSampo Yeah, the mechanics are, dare I say, quite a bit crunchy. 😉 But I love reading the enormous volume of story they created and of course the maps by Peter Fenlon are just gorgeous. I finally acquired a mint copy of the NE Middle-earth map set of his that you can cut up and form one giant map, but I don't dare do that. I am planning on scanning them in and digitally stitching them together so I can have a high quality print made of it...someday... 😉
@@CybershamanX You can ignore the crunch levels in the tables as they just lookups. It is just roll, add skill, modifiers if any and check chart. The big walls of numbers look scary but they do the work rather than making work. The designer already did the hard math.
ICE systems would actually translate to computer RPGs as it is already set up as a series of lookup tables and a single process for determining the outcome of each action.
Exactly like orcs in Europe today, cannot be integrated
The origin of these orcs being corrupt elves definitely inspired the dark elves in everquest
That uruk hai impression was really good, props to you, I also can't personally see sauron or saruman stooping to using seduction, melkor I can though honestly.
I've heard Tom DaBombadils name so much on this channel it has now become my quest in life to seek him out
I think what Melkor did exactly was experimenting on Elves to create Orcs. Genetic Engineering through research from scratch. It's like he traded the Elves' specialty of being the most powerful race for the specialty of being the most numerous race, most likely to make them completely subservient to the first dark lord which would explain why the elves weren't so easily for Sauron to corrupt unlike men who are less powerful.
For me, Orcs and Trolls are very much representative of evil, just like Morgoth and Sauron, all of which are evil through and through and will never change. They cannot be reasoned with but only destroyed.
That feels more right than not. A kindness it would be to eradicate a race twisted so far away from the light. And the orc’s legacy could be one of salvation. It united the free people’s to fight an embodiment of evil nature…but not fully evil itself. Regardless, irredeemable. Best let the orcs meet their end to meet their original maker and find peace.
One thing I have always wondered about orcs: If they are descended from elves, does that mean they are immortal? If an orc manages to avoid being violently killed, will they live forever, or at least for thousands of years?
The fact that they manage to field such huge armies (often vastly outnumbering their human, elf, and dwarf foes) suggest that the answer is yes. They probably don't breed all that much faster than humans, but because older generations of orcs keep on living... their population booms.
@@trustmeits610pm2 No one not even Tolkien knows exactly how long Orcs live. But you can headcanonn. They reproduce asexually so obviously they grow faster than men
I always wanted to know the difference between orks and goblins. Bravo sir
For the longest time I thought
Goblin = small feral orcs
Orcs = original/medium hunchback and twisted
Uruk-hai = larger and stronger orcs (what orcs were originally supposed to be)
Thank you for you this video, love it
I didn't consent to you reading my mind. This is exactly what I was just thinking about.
I've always really liked the orcs for some reason, so I would really like to think that they are capable of being good or at least learn to live with the other races in peace. Similarly to this, I once read an interesting fanfiction about a group of Daleks who learned to live in peace with a group of humans, because they discovered it is better for them that way and then they became, more or less, friendly with the humans, because they had the time to realise that they are not so different from them after all, it was a really beautifully written fanfic. :) Now the orcs basically never had a real chance to live in peace because, since their creation, they have always lived under the rule of a cruel master, even when Sauron was gone, surely they must have felt his presence in the world. But it is an interesting question what would happen if they were given a chance to live, probably not in absolute freedom at first, and it would require a certain level of understanding and leniency from the other races of course for that to even happen, but the orcs are intelligent creatures who are definitely less monstrous than other of Sauron's servants, so I think we can at least say that they are not surely unredeemable. :) As far as I'm concerned, I don't think I would want to kill an orc without a reason just because it is an orc, and if there was a chance to help them adapt to the new world, I would love to be a part of that.
Some entities are just pure evil, sorry. They have the mark of morgoth. No saving them besides death
I always viewed them like Golum. Evil but at the very very center, deep deep down there is some good. But I'd imagine they are too far gone or at least too far gone to come back fully. But I'm sure over many generations they could be trained/taught how to be somewhat normal again.
That artwork in these vids are really, really interesting and very good
Peter Jackson portrayed orcs and goblins as different but related races in LOTR and especially the Hobbit, kinda similar to their namesakes in Warhammer. But personally, I see them as different sub-sets of the same race. Goblins are essentially just smaller orcs, evolved to live in the caverns of the Misty Mountains. Standard orcs are the most numerous breed. Uruk-hai are bred by Sauron and Saruman to be bigger, thougher, and smarter than standard orcs.
7:50 The orcs were redeemed by their savior Thrall, and the went on their own journey to find new continent: Kalimdor.
How long did you work on that Uruk-hai voice? You’re amazing at it!
Can you please answer a question for me? Legolas father was Thranduil , but who was his mother? I'm almost certain I've come across it before but can't find it anywhere. Thanks.
Tolkien never actually said who Legolas's mother was! He never even mentioned her. The Hobbit movies made up some stuff about Legolas's mother dying to orcs in Gundabad, but that has no basis in Tolkein's own writings.
I think its mentioned in the video on Legolas's travels.
Hope that answers your question!
Even after reading The Silmarillion, I was a bit confused about this. Thanks for clarifying.
I like the John Fury voice impersonation that you do for the Orcs
Kinda got the message when an Uruk-hai showed his superiority when he chopped off a goblins head in a scuffle for food in the movie. 'looks like meat is back on the menu boys!'
During the war of the Last Alliance:
《All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only.》
This passage seems to imply that there were good orcs too, fighting against Sauron
Yahtzee
they were probably just fighting the the one they believed would enslave them and were not actually fighting for good
@@narsilreforged Fighting for freedom is as good as the reason free man are fighting for.
When Frodo and Sam are in Mordor one of the orcs threatens to report the other orc for rebel talk implying some of the Orcs of Mordor weren’t all on the same side. 🤔
@@Mr.Hishprung but they use that freedom to do evil after they get it. As we see the goblins do in the hobbit
1:46 is that one guy that looks at the camera during an action shot of a project.
I found this channel and my life is ruined. I can't stop watching these awesome videos! Thanks!
First this channel is amazing. I can’t stop watching! This is what I didn’t need in my life, but absolutely cannot avoid. 😅
Second, am I the only one wondering *how* they multiply?? Basically are there female orcs?
I think the Hobbit gives a view of that, Goblin Town was not under the control of Sauron, and was just goblins living out their goblin lives. They go to war at the end of the book for the killing of the goblin king, not as a slave to an evil that was controlling them. In other words, they are like most of us, well besides the fact that they kill anyone that comes to their door. :)
That's not so different from many real world primitive societies, really.
@@trustmeits610pm2 Not so different than humanity in general, this is ours, not yours, get off our lawns.
In Peter Jackson's movie I was impressed by the knowledge, the manners and the rhetorical skills of the Goblin King. He seemed to be a highly educated man ...
I tune in every week, a small part just to hear you say “Tom Da Bombadil19” 😂
Could you do a video on glorfindel @ nerd of the rings I’ve wanted to learn more about him. Also nice video :)
For sure! He will be coming soon. Looking at possibly either Glorfindel or Turin for my big 100th video!
@@NerdoftheRings ok cool thanks !
@@NerdoftheRings Túrin would be a LONG video, half of it being a list of names.
I like the path that WarCraft took with their Orcs. How they were bound to a Dark Lord by blood, but eventually freed themselves.
If only Tolkien was still around to continue writing, maybe in the 4th age we would see more Nomadic, Tribal and Cultural Orcs.
I have had this discussion with friends before, and this has always been my take. For evil to exist, the creature committing evil has to be capable of also not committing evil, otherwise that creature cannot even be considered responsible for it's actions. If a creature cannot change, and cannot choose to do good, then it has no agency. That creature cannot be evil, because it cannot even make a choice. So of course at the inverse of that if the creature IS capable of choice, then of course there will always exist the choice to not be evil. In summary either the orcs cannot choose for themselves and therefore cannot be evil, or they can choose for themselves and therefore can be good. Either way, orcs or any other 'evil' creature cannot be irredeemably evil, as irredeemable evil cannot exist in this maxim.
I’d love to ask Professor Tolkien’s take on Peter Jackson’s orcs having cockney accents?
He wrote cockney accents for the three trolls in the hobbit, so we know it’s possible. Short answer is that he may have considering this was an english tale, but to be sure you should take a look at orc dialogue, sometimes i get the feeling it could fit cockney
Cockney accents do really well for orcs imo. They’re the ultimate hated scum of the middle earth. Similar to how pirates are portrayed with cockney accents it makes a lot of sense if you look at it from that relation, both types of classes of “people” (since we are mentioning orcs) that were ultimately hated and despised. Obviously pirates in real history weren’t these amazing anti heroes that Hollywood portrays them as, albeit some but most were just bottom of the barrel scum in terms of morality. According to history of course
@@TheHusseinjoker
There you go…… caveman attitudes like you and easy to please knuckle draggers 😊
@@tonypap1 lolwut