I fully agree with everything you're saying but only if we are talking about a beta. Maybe that is just the curse of open development but this is an alpha and all the stuff we're talking about, about making it easier for new people to understand needs to be addressed further in development. Right now it just needs to be focused on does x thing work and does x thing play well and that's it.
I one billion percent agree on the journey starting in Sanctus, and then you going through the portal after the tutorial. That would be WAY better than just showing up in the new world.
Yeah, that would be cool. There could be a tutorial explaining the quest system, various icons, commissions, and how they all work, along with some crafting basics. Then it could end with a cinematic sequence where the gates begin to reopen, and NPCs react with excitement, saying things like, 'The gates are activating, just as our ancestors prophesied!' Afterward, you’d appear in the open world, where goblins are attacking the area around the portal, setting the stage for the combat tutorial, mount acquisition, and more. However, for the Tulnars, this approach doesn’t make sense since they weren’t in Sanctus. Instead, their tutorial could take place in an instanced cave or the underworld. At the end, there would be a cinematic scene where they leave the cave, gaze into the distance, and see multiple blue laser beams striking the ground. An elder, Yoda-like Tulnar would then say, 'The portals are reopening. Let’s investigate them.' This would explain why the Tulnars are present at the portals when you start a Tulnar character.
Prob better than 2024 eve online tbh. Playing it right now and it's still hard as nails compared to any other MMO out there, even though they now throw tens of thousands of SP and millions of ISK at you daily.
The worst experience is if the game is designed based on suggestions from people who have played it incrementally for 5 years and who were there when all systems were introduced and they have no concept of how a new/fresh player would see things, since they already know all the systems and where to go etc... I dont like the current hold your hand quest design either... BUT if you want to do away with it, you NEEED to have the gameplay designed around it, like a nlp npc that you can talk to about the world in the first "tutorial" area or somethng like that, or system messages with information on suggested activities, common names for things etc
It's not about how complex the systems are; it's about how well-integrated they are. Every MMO has complex systems. But only the great ones integrate them in an intuitive, enjoyable way.
Next weeks video. Narc will play the devils advocate and tell you why hand holding is ruining games and why Ashes is a breath of fresh air. Stay tuned. Same bat time. Same bat channel.
He's a content creator as a priority due to it being his job. Almost every youtuber who has a decent following will cater to what ever gets more views - just the nature of the beast. If you made your living on how many views or clicks your video makes youd probably find yourself back seating your true opinions in favor of opinions that are likely to get you paid.
@@madmerctv2138 If you have enough money to sustain yourself and live your lifestyle, even saving some, you value integrity and morals more, unless you weren't raised right. Some people are even putting their values before themselves which might be stupid, it is also respectable.
There are some games that don't hand hold that are still playable, like Project Gorgon. You're expected to explore and there aren't necessarily markers for anything. The problem with AoC's alpha for the quests is that very few of the quest objectives on the side of the screen are descriptive enough that a player can do them. Also, using names is pretty important, Project Gorgon doesn't hide who exactly you should talk to, even if they don't put a huge arrow over the head. Meanwhile one of AoCs first quest is to "talk to an official". Like WTF? Fortunately, I'd already watched videos and basically right after I got my horse, I just noped the eff out of the starting area.
@@GravitoRaize Lack of markers or quest log is not a good thing for longevity. Life happens, you jump back to game after period of time and you don't know what you were doing, where is this place you have been to already. It's always good and bad, tradeoffs. Problem for AoC is that quests are not quests but tedious tasks.
So do you want a good mmo or a massively popular mmo?!genuinely can’t tell with your feedback. Your entire scope is built on a pve- story centric mmo… this was never going to be that
1: Good mmos are massively popular mmos. If they are good people play them. 2: Asking for a basic tutorial to a feature that has an entire research paper worth of stuff players are supposed to just... figure out has nothing to do with "a pve- story centric mmo", this is literally just asking for basic instructions on how to play the damn game.
@@bits360wastaken The game feels super niche and I don't think it will do great in the long run. If this game is pvp always on where you have to constantly group, the game will not succeed
Narc you yourself said this years ago and I think Steven said this game isn't gonna be for everybody. The fact that it's PVX is gonna turn alot of carebears away, Just look at Sodas name for his toon says it all.
I hate the term "hand holding". Making clear instructions and teaching people how to play your game is NOT "hand holding". When your kid needs to change a tire, do you show them how to do it, or do you just throw the tire iron at them and say "figure it out"?...
But you're not a kid and you have so many people around you who you can talk to. This doesn't mean I disagree with tutorials but it's really hard For tutorials I think you should do like X4 Foundations have done but that's just how I like it
Agreed. Basic information needed to play a game is just part of the gaming experience. Hand holding is more... when the designers literally have you running from area to area with giant arrows pointing the way. So yeah, playing a game with a manual is not "hand holding". It's necessary info needed to actually PLAY the game effectively. To understand its systems. Hand holding is when objectives and other feats are essentially put on a platter for you, with less work involved. So basic info about the game is one thing; telling you how to actually achieve things in the game is another. They are NOT the same thing.
@@cheeseionyt8660 "You're not a kid, you can talk to a lot of people" You're missing the point. The point is that instructions are a basic part of a game (no matter how many people you can ask for this info). Therefore, it should be in the game regardless of other ways of getting this information. And a person's age has nothing to do with anything.
he just is an ... and he knows becasue he named himself after it. I mean if i take an Quest to go to an Emberspring close by and the quest says i should go back to a Official, first thing i think is oh the quy who gave me the Quest right...
i feel like changing up some of the names of systems would help too. Imo "node" tells me nothing if i didn't already look up what a node is, i feel like there can be a better name to convey "this is a preset city" other than node. City center maybe? Territory point? something like that would be better if this is gonna be a core system players need to care about and able to understand fairly quickly
In general, whenever you make a game -- hell, whenever you make *anything* creative -- you should try to use in-world ("diegetic") terms whenever possible. Like, people in the world of Verra wouldn't think in terms of "nodes" would they? They'd think of "regions" or "territories", as you say. So the game should call them that. Similar with the "tank" class. That's an MMO term, not an in-world term. Why the hell hasn't that been renamed yet is beyond me.
This is not the starting or new player experience btw. This is alpha 2 phase 1.. I feel like some people are already forgetting that key detail. But so there's no confusion about my position, I do agree that the game needs to be a lot better than this at teaching/guiding new players.. AT LAUNCH.
When you say that not telling everyone exactly where to go and what to do is gatekeeping their fun, what about the hardcore MMO audience (this game's target audience) who thinks this lack of information is fun? Is that not gatekeeping our fun? Just a thought.
Starter experience will probably be put in just before beta. Devs don't usually put resources into that until the gsme is nearly finished. This is true of any genre, not just mmos, because if games change over iterations they dont want the tutorials to be out of date.
@@Exorcistt94 Welcome tutorial for games usually gets put in right before beta. You don't want to create a welcome tutorial when systems are still under heavy development because things can change.
People seem to forget that the recent Alpha was to test server stability, it's not for actual gameplay and progress....... All of this will be fleshed out as the Alpha progresses. Welcome to what Alpha testing is about, not the supposed crap we have been fed the last decade as "Early Access" or beta's that are actually to see if players will accept the current build as playable.
@@tormmac here is no game... it has not released yet and will not for multiple years. Anyone who "reviews" a Alpha is a a-hole. Also show me one big modern mmo with less then 10 years dev time. Throne of Liberty had what? 13.. 14 Years?
@@tormmac They have been open and clear about the current state of the development. Reviewing a unfinished product is self defeating due to everything being subject to change. People whining about an Alpha stability test just shows they are ignorant and have not done any research and are most likely not even doing bug reports, they just whine about it and take up server space until they "Rage Quit".
@@da_boring_gamer3170 Most games at this stage are still under an NDA... You're comparing something unfinished (that is usually hidden and unavailable to even be compared), to completely finished games that have been fleshed out for years and years.
@@da_boring_gamer3170 Read the roadmap, it shows exactly what the testing phases are for, the 25th was to test server stability and the launcher. As the build gets more stable they will introduce more in-game mechanics and content to test those systems to ensure they are stable. All the people who are upset should wait until the Beta phases when it is more to their playability standards and the game is in it's polishing phase.
It’s an alpha most people playing are hardcore mmo players. I don’t think the new player experience is a top priority at this point. As people for help if you need assistance. It’s a social mmo.
The new player experience is what people brush off and fail to improve on the player base further. Most games nowadays suffer from catering to hardcore/pro/top players. Lots of people play by themselves.
@@modestpixel4686This is a game that has overstated itself for years as a SOCIAL mmo. If people want to play by themselves that is absolutely their choice to make, but it is not up to the developers to cater to what is ultimately a small minority when the core loop of the game and almost all of its mechanics revolve around players accomplishing things as a group. Just because the people who refuse to ask questions or investigate things on their own cant grasp how game systems work doesn't mean it should detract from our enjoyment. By the way, most games today are the exact opposite of what you are describing, with only a tiny portion of new releases really striving for a hardcore experience. The idea that every game should cater to every type of player is dumb, and results in the stagnation of unique experiences. If that means that people like the manchild in the clip can't enjoy the game for what it wants to be, so be it.
@@FellowSunBro @FellowSunBro @FellowSunBro it can state whatever it wants, it won't help get a bigger playerbase which what they'd would want as a business. you think solo players are a minority because they're solo players. You don't need to cater to them, making everything social is an opposite of it. Nowhere near I mentioned to appease every player. Soda is a manchild, but this type frustration was mentioned by other content creators numerous times. People can't "grasp" the systems because they're poorly explained if at all. Bombarding player with pages of text isn't the solution.
Why are we talking about this for an Alpha Phase that has absolutely nothing to do with content? They literally wanted the bare miniumum of things in the game so people could do something while they test what they are actually there for lol
There really should be a basic tutorial. Especially considering the current length of development. BASIC. Does not need to be an entire codex of tutorials.
@@XiLock_Alotx There will be, the team is focused on getting the game playable without networking issues. Why does it matter if there's a tutorial when the game is rubberbanding all over the place? Just be patient, I am sure the team has stuff in works. Once the game is in a playable state we can start giving feedback on progression.
I didn't like that I had to compete with hundreds of players for a few level 2 mobs. When I attacked a mob, if I didn't get most damage or killing blow I don't get XP, it was horrible. It is so difficult to test when you cannot test without being bombarded by hundreds of players. They need more areas to test in with level 1-2 mobs we can figure stuff out on.
It's pretty dumb at the beginning. You should get at least fair share of exp based of hoe many % of HP you took. Ashes of Creation for a known have a ton of sexy stories how this world will be alive, but I don't buy it
I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I was really taken aback by the clip of Sodapoppin. I’ve never watched him, but dude has serious anger issues. It’s one thing to be frustrated or confused, but that’s a lot of over the top yelling and f-bombing for someone sitting comfortably at home playing a frickin game.
All he had to do was read what was on the screen in front of him. Ask in global. Ask his own chat. Ask his creator friends. Join a group. Press M to open the Map and look at the legend for the icons. This was a toddler tantrum, 100% beginning to end. PS This man paid $200 to test a game he knew nothing about then got mad at THE DEVELOPERS because he knew nothing about it. What a dipshit.
YES!! artisan skills should be introduce later, like when you're settled in a node.. we dont wanna be crafting at the start of the game, give us lore give us story to progress and immerse ourselves before you introduce the other things.
Player corruption - it's basicaly same as it was in Lineage 2, but I hope there will be atleast wars between clans/aliances. Uncertainity of being attacked by random guy or party in wilderness was big part of Lineage 2 and it was hell of fun. If you are lone wolf or just low level without clan, there is no intention to kill you becouse of corruption system, but in Clan, you should be viewed as valid target for other hostile clans.
The only reason this happened is they don't have tutorials in the game yet. I'm sure there will be a new player experience that introduces all of this stuff at some point
Not really. Tutorials/introduction is one of the most important things you should work on before releasing game to players. Beta tests that people can access in mass are this kind of release.
While i agree with some of soda's criticisms, its unrealistic to expect detailed tutorials when its still alpha and thise systems may change which wiuld require tutorials to be rewritten. It makes much more sense to make tutorials for the release (or maybe beta) However this is the downside to allowing people to pay for access to test, they will come accross things you arent prepared to address yet
Make the game linear until lvl 10 and can become a citizen that should be more than enough time to get the basics. Make crafting system side quests that can be picked up from any trainers in the world so you can start to learn about the system whenever you like. Create some sort of in game glossary that you can review as you wish so if you do something and forget you can just refer to glossary(genshin impact is the perfect example of that)
Maybe a Verapedia that is in the game or even accessible through in game books or libraries. Not a true tutorial but an in game resource where you can go and learn. Or you could just ask other players but I know that's not as reliable as it could/should be.
Yeah, I mean, that's the problem I guess. That we're now going to get so many people going into the alpha with the expectation of a finished game, and then get completely indignated because "what the hell, this game sucks, it's not explaining anything and there's like no content!" Hopefully common sense prevails, for once, and this doesn't tarnish the image of the game too much ahead of release... Then again, release will be far enough from now that any mainstream sentiment would've been forgotten trice over.
What soda actually did was give an authentic representation of how someone totally new to Ashes will experience things. It's important he acted the way he did. Soda is a smart dude, try not to see what he did as childish because, "It's only an alpha." I think he knew what he was doing. We need representatives like him who aren't years deep in copium pointing out this stuff and aren't just going to seethe with useless feedback or be a suck up to Steven.
But the thing is , this is a specific version of the game designed to test specific things. He and others are complaining about things without this knowledge somehow thay it's truely and alpha test and not representing of the final or even current state of the true game experience.
@@maxrusty3596the UI not being intuitive is good feedback, he doesn’t have to praise the game in the alpha. They WANT people to critique it so they can make it better.
I may be just old, but coming from Everquest where the "quests" were pretty much all hidden and involved week long spawn timers and 72-man raid quests for several parts... watching this Sodapop fella whine with impotent rage about things that took no time at all to figure out, complaining an unfinished game didn't spoon feed him. was painful to watch. Look. Read. Explore. Interact. That dude seriously needs to go back to hello kitty island adventure or whatever with your glowing quest trails and "pay 20$ to be max level" content is waiting for him. I miss a game where I feel like I actually accomplished something. Feel proud to have achieved what I have done, rather than get my participation badge and free epic loot. It's my hope that with enough work AoC is the game I've been waiting for. My hope still remains, anyhow.
@@ivoivic2448 I have little doubt he will; he didn't sink millions of his own money and years of his life to make a clone of a game we already have and got bored of. My only concern is the whiners will make enough bad press to limit how many players actually try the game and it won't be sustainable upon launch.
@@Genosis I'm not the one who sunk millions into a project, but I'd be so bold to say that press can't impact jack if a game is good. The only ones who will be persuaded by press are short attention span normies who just want to play "the next big thing". they'll be gone within months anyway.
Fkn exactly! I want that deep sandbox experience of coming through the portal and just immersing myself. Soda and his ilk are too used to braindead leveling by using step by step guide addons and gps/autopilot in wow. Afk zooming from "!" to "?" is just how to make your game only about max level stuff and then die until next patch.
I went into A2 without ever having looked at the wiki, I got confused a couple of times but not very much. I think the expectation of purely using quests to level up is a symptom of wow, I went out and did world events instead.
But do you have reason to do that? Is there any goal, purpose? Is it indicated that you need to get strong, armor up for some things to come? Are you told that there is different city out there and you could check it out? I don't mean go from A to B, do C. Just a little nudge in direction to show you the world and give another purpose to chase. Or give you list of things you can progress.
@@lionart5230 I agree, the world and story need incentivising to explore. The hook. The flavour. The setting and context. You can and - should - be able to carve your own story in this world, but - why you should - still needs to happen. The why should be presented as early as possible so that you can then start exploring who and what you want to do in said world.
Quests do need better direction and I'm sure it will improve. Hopefully not super hand holdy like WoW. But this is not the point of Alpha 2 phase 1 AT ALL. There are so many creators that came into this expecting a near full game like wtf.
You know what? I dont get it.. People complain nowdays about everthing. Its an Alpha Version, means the Product is not even near finished. It still takes years till the game comes out. As i saw in the Creators Live Stream of different persons, the game sure has bugs, but looks fun too. Its the same, as back time with BG 3 and all the complain about the early access game not fun at all. After the Release it was overhelmed with positiv reviews and prices.. People should get just a bit relaxed....
The problem with that line of thinking is you let things through that shouldn't because you think it's not going to be problem at launch but it will be because the devs don't know it's a problem because no one told them because it's not OK to criticize an incomplete game.
but the game wants to allow anyone to focus on anything there will be pure crafters so the sandbox style fits games try too hard to please everyone and it usually dulls their game out so i prefer they stick to how it is and do what they are doing
@@TheNichq so you can confirm that people dont want that anymore? you asked everyone? youre just as silly as the wow dev that told the community that they wouldnt want wow classic.
The best approach to this is simple. When you create a character at some point in the creation screen or after you log in have a way to engage with the player and give them however many choices are needed to learn the game in playable tutorials. For example, ask the player "What interests you most" list the categories, Combat, Skilling, Housing, fkn picking onions whatever. From there remove as much UI as possible and guide them step by step on a small 5-10 minute experience detailing and interacting with that specific choice. Once that is done do it again and again for each category and continue to do it later on In the game as new things arise. As you finish each one leave the UI on screen and keybound. Slowly integrate the UI and Systems to the player so you don't overwhelm them. Doing it this way makes the player responsible for what happens next and the only reason they would stop is if it's not for them and they don't enjoy it. That is the feedback loop the devs would use to change things up. it's literally a win win for both parties. Allow players to skip them if they choose as some people like to figure things out from themselves.
No hand holding was GREAT when it came to games like EverQuest because they were not that complex. And I still love when games don't hold your hand. I look forward to games like Monsters and Memories or Pantheon. But when it comes to Ashes of Creation... hand holding is a bit needed, especially at the start. You can't expect people to just know what to do. Not everyone, myself included, want to read through a wiki before playing.
Typical retail WoW player. I've never liked him. But, unfortunately that is the norm these days. Its not like how it was back in the UO days where you're dropped in and you have to find out things for yourself.
If you dont bring in the WoW players, then AoC is doomed before it launches. Its that simple. This game isnt going to be sustainable with a few thousand players.
"back in muh UO days" your ilk have literally killed every single one of these MMOs that ever tried to release, and you have still learned nothing. Yes, you even killed UO.
@@TheNichq I think there are other playerbases, not just WoW's that would like to play AoC. At this point in time I hate the average Retail WoW player, their sense of community is gone and only the zoomer meta slave mindset is all that's left. I rather not have WoW players in AoC.
I laughed out loud at "when the game launches in 2077." Lol so good. Also, great video Narc. I think everything you said makes sense and I hope Intrepid listens
People seems to forget that before Company pays you to playtest (QA - Play Tester). I don't know who started this concept, that you need to pay to play an Alpha.
@@carlstong Intrepid cannot hire 500+ QA testers to test the really important things which the game cant function without. Like a networking backend that can handle insane amounts of people and server meshing. Intrepid isnt a large storied game studio with 10+ years of making games together like blizzard or arenanet or square has had.
@@carlstong Oh right so business models change but we should just do it the old way and use all comparison to the old way. If you join an ALPHA and expect a finished game you're going to have a bad time.
lol narcs like give these carbears guidance.... Growing up in ultima online was the most savage experience, you just gotta do it. Legit, no quests, no direction i think the most you got was an introduction to the healer as you stumbled across him. Other than that it was spawn and go explore. Point is this is a part of the "root" exprience. We shouldnt be telling the devs to make things easier or to make them guided/linear this is whats wrong with the world of mmo's today. Back then you played a game and enjoyed it because it was unique, new, and that held your intrest then your grew your character and evolved. Today people emmediately compliain and quit because its not made the way they want it.
But Ultima was hardcore. You died, you lost your stuff. It was part of experience because it was designed this way. I prefer to have direction, even simple one because I love immersion. Now imagine if you are spawned in other world, in middle of nowhere. Would you want to go and explore? Where? Why? Some people like it, lack of direction or purpose. Others prefer to have it. Not a hand holding experience, I assure you, just an idea that behind these mountains, there is rumor that dwarven fortress entrance is hidden. And there you can find epic treasures as well as your own end... Book that paints inside your mind, rather than being thrown to library where you don't know which book should you start with.
@lionart5230 I, me, i prefer... At the root is the issue. It wasnt about your preference. It was about devs making what they wanted and US the gamers living thru it. Instead of US trying to control and change it to our preference.
@@Warbringar Yeah, simple as it is. I might want to try it and if it doesn't work for me, I won't play it. I am not going to try and ask developer to make this game suit my needs. I will take it for what it is. Someone has right to design experience according to their preferences and you can judge/critic this experience, say that it sucks and move on. If majority response will be that, game won't be popular. If it won't capture it's core audience, it won't survive and fulfill it's purpose.
@@lionart5230 history has shown games that dont cater to the audience thrive and survive. Ie ultima still exists to date, Everquest.. You are still I, meeing and stating your preferences and then saying it wont succeed if it doesnt. Lets agree to disagree.
@@Warbringar That's invalid. They extremally cater to audience. Just specific ones. Game without target audiences ends up like Concord or Dustborn did. Ultima already had franchise lovers as target audience and they made more of what people like. I am not sure about Everquest, what was initial idea, probably MUDs?
Why would anyone be shocked that an alpha was missing all of the polish, tutorials, and quests? Soda just making easy click bait streamer content, his specialty.
Making a tutorial for how to interact with player driven systems is extremely difficult and likely to be out of date after a few months (due to players changing how they interact with the world), but it does seem necessary. I'm glad I'm not the one who has to design this system.
Explaining systems and how and what to look for in the areas you are ins is important. But if you make my ui look like wow or an ea game or an ubisoft game i wont even play. I want to know what matters now.
Its not "gatekeeping fun" the fun is figuring out the game. Too often in recent years do players optimize the fun out of games only for them to be beaten in record time and dropped for the next dopamine hit. Older games were great because they deopped you in and let you figure them out, I like the concept of a game that is slow paced and relies on its players making all the guides and tutorials because that forces community interaction and it becomes a puzzle that a collective is trying to solve rather than a task a choice few are racing to beat.
I really hope they don't cater this game to baby brained streamers that need their simps to feed them everything for them to have fun. Handholding systems are incredibly immersion breaking, and that's even more important in a game like this. I just want to play a game that recreates how you feel when you login to an MMO for the very first time and have no idea wtf is going on; that's what creates the desire to explore and fulfills a sense of wonder that you can't get in a lot of modern games. Meta slaves could easily ruin this games systems as well, and I can only hope that Steven Sharif is aware of this cancer.
Intrepid knows that it needs more in the starting area. Not sure why Narc thinks they dont know. Useless video about things they already know needs work.
Well, I found an "emberspring" by accident but could not interact with it at all. I was supposed to somehow "attune" my essence to it. So, there's that.
This looks amazing. It basically means I'm not going to run the main story line and be trapped in endless loops of running the same crap over and over for a tiny little bump to ilvl. It also means the players that have knowledge also have additional worth besides I'm a tank and I go bonk.
You know, you went through all of that, and compared to other MMOs, I don't even know if Ashes is even that mechnically dense. Maybe a little more on the player progression side, but when talking about WoW for example you have Delves, Dungeons, Warbands, The Great Vault, Heirlooms, Achievements, Addons (not necessarily required, but the vast majority of players have at least 1), battle pets, classes, specs, skill trees, class trees, leveling, the auction house, professions, M+, M0, PvP, Battlegrounds, Arena, Raids, Heroic, Mythic, Embellishments, profession specialization/leveling, work orders, transmogs, world events/quests, reputation/renown, trading post, and I'm sure there's a couple other things I missed. And this is from the WoW expansion that was keeping things simple. If you think Ashes has a lot of mechanics, then I just think you don't play MMOs. They are meant to keep you playing and in the world and offer players multiple opportunities to differentiate and specialize themselves. They almost by definition have to have large maps, lots of different mechanics/features, and be overwhelming if introduced all at once. So I don't see the high complexity as necessarily knock. If anything, I think it means that Ashes has a pretty good sense of what it means to be an MMORPG
I'll be honest I don't see anything that would cause confusion other than typical braindead gameplay.... The dude who TOLD you to go to the emberspring. Thats who you need to talk to again afterwards... Pretty basic questing logic 😂 Nothing that I've seen in the game seems difficult to understand, if you actually read.. nesting tooltips would be nice for explaining status effects caused by spells, but I assume that'll work better/be present in the future anyways. I prefer having fewer markers 'telling me' where to go. And more exploration/critical thinking. I don't need the map telling me what's interesting... I'll go find out. Nothing bothers me more than listening to a grown man whine like a bratty child. Sorry the game didnt highlight every step you needed to take? Sorry you don't understand quests enough to return to the guy who gave it to you after you finished it?
You said much, while at the same time saying very little.... The idea that a game must inform the player of every detail of functioning systems and even has a moral obligation to do so or else they "fail" is a really deep seated personal ignorance probably even a fear. Learning is part of the game and is best done through live play, the game has no obligation to teach you and good games do little more than nudge you in the general direction so you can figure things out on your own.... Stop expecting to have your little hand held and informed of all relevant game mechanics in the "starting experience" because of lowest common denominator player being unable to figure out basic MMO mechanics. Your own personal expectations do not set the standard for good development... Using a streamer who is generally not very good at general MMO knowledge and also consistently "ACTS" considerably dumber than he actually is for content as a baseline for pushing your personal opinion is just sad. If you do not have the personal drive to push into a new MMO and learn the game, no amount of tutorial island is going to help you make it.
go play wow, if you want an mmo to hold your hand. I don't trust Ashes of Creation, but people should figure shit out, that is part of the appeal - look at it online, whatever. or just go play wow
Tutorials in an MMO should be a streamlined solo experience that drops the player off in the actual world AFTER its given the player the tools and knowledge they will need to move forward, call that hand holding or whatever but if you want to entice new players to your game then those are absolute necessities, getting mad at new players for not knowing what to do when the gamr gives you no way of knowing what to do and pushing for a full no hand holding policy and will ensure the game dies in a month or two
Everyone that is having so much to complain about right now, know this is in Alpha 2 right? "oh the game is not flushed out".... well duh talking about it and making a bug report about it is needed. But crying about it isn't going to do anything but make the one complain look like a joke. If it is still that big of a problem by beta then sure cry about it.
When you say stop gate keeping ppls fun boomers. You are in fact gate keeping the boomers fun. You forget that old school mmo players enjoy difficulty, learning how to do something difficult is way more rewarding then hand holding and solo grinding easy gameplay. Boy if a dungeons dont give me fear for over pulling then its not as fun. If you forget the old mmos didn't teach shit, ppl figured it out then, the players trained newbies it is what made mmos, mmos. Please mmos are ment to be social games its what makes them feel alive.
Also, if you run out of mana and get low on HP, it's better to create a new character. Waiting to regain mana and health by sitting down is pointless because if you run out of your 8,000 rations, it will take 8 hours due to the terrible health/mana regeneration rate. This issue could be fixed in 2 minutes, yet somehow it hasn't been addressed. I had six friends who spent hundreds of dollars and quit after just 30 minutes of gameplay because of this mana/health problem.
The thing with the majority of today players, is that they need instant reward, because of the fast serotonin culture we're living on. AoC is a game for people who dedicates themselves to complex gameplay and lore. That's why games like Ragnarok Online have low player pop and CoD has a higher player pop
I daresay the current iteration of that quest was something they have in place to test the artisan side of things and that is it, I doubt that this will make it to the final product at its current stage. The Devs did make massive changes to that first quest already from PA2 to A2 by localizing all the gathering done, in PA2 you had to go open world to find all that and it was a nightmare. Hopefully they do develop a good new player experience as the production progresses.
Most people should not be in this alpha test is what it comes down to. Maybe they should've opened it up to phase 3 instead, but who cares at this point. If you're really gonna pay attention to content creators who know nothing about the game then that's on you. Their opinion holds 0 value for this stage of the game development cycle
for crafting skills there should be a series of quests like archeages blue salt brotherhood quest line, something that will start you out with the most basic how to get/craft x and then slowly work you up to the higher tier stuff.
Thank you! That's what I've been saying dude. Get me in the combat first. If they keep the starting zone how it is, with no combat, people are going to drop out of the game like flies. Crafting should be one of the last things introduced as it is one of the most intricate and niche aspects of the game. Lord only knows why they thought introducing gathering and crafting first was a good idea.
You want a tutorial? That's fine. But I refuse to pretend that any of these mechanics or systems are particularly complicated or convoluted. I find a lot of enjoyment in exploring an unknown world and having to look up or ask other players about things I dont understand and feeling involved in a community that is learning and growing together. That isn't "gatekeeping people's fun." It is prioritizing my OWN fun over that of a moron who cant be bothered to tie his own shoes. It is not my responsibility to advocate for the lowest common denominator when we are talking about a specific game as well as an entire genre of games that has always catered to the types of people who like to immerse themselves in a community and figure things out together.
Lets be fair. If you cared about this game, you probably paid for Beta or received it by participating early on in development, feedback etc. Now it's all tourists/people who just learned about game existence or never gave a fuck about the game/are not interested about idea. For me, I knew it will take time to release, I don't want to spend time on progress that will be reset or learn game that will change before release. I am not part of development/team so it's not my game, I am here to play once it's finished. Once it finishes and I will be looking for MMO to play, I will give it a fair shot without any fucking guide on start (why would you do it to yourself? why destroy your initial experience...) and see how it is. But some people who comment, never wanted to play. Others are balls deep in game and know about every system in existence. It's hard to see it all through.
How could people be asking what a node is? Nodes are the mechanic that made AoC stand out from the thousand other MMOs out there. Go and watch the original Kickstarter video, people
I hope they also rework the Interface of the game. It looks much too flashy and fits more into a Sci-Fi MMO not into a mediaval style MMO. They should focus on earthen/wood colors and make it a bit darker. Also develop a own style in it. Atm it looks like a bough UI-Template which could be used in any other MMO too
They have mentioned many times (and documented in their wiki) that the new player experience will not be implemented until the beta testing phase. So just like no one should complain that "the rogue class isn't available!" during this alpha, no one should complain about the new player experience. You are testers. Soda chose to pay for the option to TEST the very core mechanics of the game. Complaining about the state of the game just... makes no sense
When I learned to do action camera cleave while targeting the tank with my healing I was level 9. Which solo leveling equals 6 days, for me atleast. Combat definitive is my favorite part. I rushed the crafting part now I sell my junk rather than crafting.
Who pays $150 to test an alpha for a game they don't know ANYthing about? Seems like that's on HIM. FWIW the little silver square is clearly labeled on the Map and some of those other icons, too, he just had to OPEN THE MAP BY PRESSING M. Mini maps almost never have legends when there's an overlay map which does. Also, he thought the book was a quest, but the book is an active NPC who talks to you and also a quest GIVER or receiver (when you meet the reqs to trigger it). So yeah, it is pretty much like a quest? Either way, book = talking npc vs it's a quest is not worth rage-quitting over. The new player experience SUCKS, that's 100% true, but in parallel this guy needs to take a nap. Not even touch grass; just get more sleep. He needs to take some ownership of his own situation when he wakes up. Also, this is an alpha; alphas don't typically prioritize the new player experience. I'm not saying they SHOULDN'T just that they DON'T. So it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Again ,that's NOT AN EXCUSE for failing at that, it's just the reality. EDIT: I guess in lieu of a nap when he's testing a game he knows nothing about he could A) Open the wiki on his other monitor B) Use chat to ask people for help since this is a MULTI-PLAYER GAME C) Ask his followers for help--what the fuck were they doing this whole time, just laughing? D) Ask to group up with other content creators So yeah, the more I look at this, the more this guy just looks like a huge man baby.
Lol that players reaction--he acts that way because it drives views. I DO AGREE the starter area/tutorials need to be fleshed out. I'm sure they'll come after the network/stability testing
It's blunt and a little vulgar, but he's 100% right that the "onboarding" (not hand holding) experience is critical and it's obvious when it's not good.
@@BraamBafflehelm it was always go bonk skeleton. it's just that back when people could communicate, they actually asked in chat "where is skeleton?" instead of whining on youtube that the game has no tutorials about skeleton bonking areas.
They really shouldn't call them "nodes" in the actual game to begin with, it's using a development programmer term in a player-facing way. "City"/"City State" "Territory" "Region" " are the type of words that should be used and the word chosen should depend on the direction they are taking the game's atmosphere and character. Use weird, fantasy appropriate words. Maybe i'm wrong because i see node used constantly in programming and graph contexts or maybe you all are just way too deep in this project that the "node" weirdness has become normal
People who talk about a game that is in very early alpha phase like it's the final game release. Don't expect all the final polish on any part of it, especially the starting zone.
It might be an idea to have a dedicated "game info" type section that explains the various game systems, terminology etc, with some nice easy to understand graphics. Possibly also a video at the beginning to intro each new player to the game. This is as well as tutorial quests to show us the ropes.
I don't want a linear start that insults my intelligence, but they should and will probably have a chunky ingame systems guide. For now though it's tech alpha and we have a wiki and a discord.
I fully agree with everything you're saying but only if we are talking about a beta.
Maybe that is just the curse of open development but this is an alpha and all the stuff we're talking about, about making it easier for new people to understand needs to be addressed further in development. Right now it just needs to be focused on does x thing work and does x thing play well and that's it.
Soda? Confused by a video game? Color me shocked
I know right. It was...painful to watch.
If soda is confused then most ppl will be confused too thats the point. I dont think he is below average IQ
I one billion percent agree on the journey starting in Sanctus, and then you going through the portal after the tutorial. That would be WAY better than just showing up in the new world.
A tutorial island type thing would be crazy good.
Yeah amazing idea
Yeah, that would be cool. There could be a tutorial explaining the quest system, various icons, commissions, and how they all work, along with some crafting basics. Then it could end with a cinematic sequence where the gates begin to reopen, and NPCs react with excitement, saying things like, 'The gates are activating, just as our ancestors prophesied!' Afterward, you’d appear in the open world, where goblins are attacking the area around the portal, setting the stage for the combat tutorial, mount acquisition, and more.
However, for the Tulnars, this approach doesn’t make sense since they weren’t in Sanctus. Instead, their tutorial could take place in an instanced cave or the underworld. At the end, there would be a cinematic scene where they leave the cave, gaze into the distance, and see multiple blue laser beams striking the ground. An elder, Yoda-like Tulnar would then say, 'The portals are reopening. Let’s investigate them.' This would explain why the Tulnars are present at the portals when you start a Tulnar character.
THIS. ashes NEEDS this.
I totally agree! But are all the races going to start at the same sanctus tutorial area? Or will there be different ones depending on the race?
still a better new player experience than 2010 eve online lma0
Prob better than 2024 eve online tbh. Playing it right now and it's still hard as nails compared to any other MMO out there, even though they now throw tens of thousands of SP and millions of ISK at you daily.
I remember it like it was yesterday; "Here is your rookie ship.... Now go f*** yourself"
The worst experience is if the game is designed based on suggestions from people who have played it incrementally for 5 years and who were there when all systems were introduced and they have no concept of how a new/fresh player would see things, since they already know all the systems and where to go etc...
I dont like the current hold your hand quest design either... BUT if you want to do away with it, you NEEED to have the gameplay designed around it, like a nlp npc that you can talk to about the world in the first "tutorial" area or somethng like that, or system messages with information on suggested activities, common names for things etc
It's not about how complex the systems are; it's about how well-integrated they are. Every MMO has complex systems. But only the great ones integrate them in an intuitive, enjoyable way.
None of the great ones did that during their alpha.
Next weeks video. Narc will play the devils advocate and tell you why hand holding is ruining games and why Ashes is a breath of fresh air. Stay tuned. Same bat time. Same bat channel.
He's a content creator as a priority due to it being his job. Almost every youtuber who has a decent following will cater to what ever gets more views - just the nature of the beast. If you made your living on how many views or clicks your video makes youd probably find yourself back seating your true opinions in favor of opinions that are likely to get you paid.
@@madmerctv2138 If you have enough money to sustain yourself and live your lifestyle, even saving some, you value integrity and morals more, unless you weren't raised right. Some people are even putting their values before themselves which might be stupid, it is also respectable.
There are some games that don't hand hold that are still playable, like Project Gorgon. You're expected to explore and there aren't necessarily markers for anything. The problem with AoC's alpha for the quests is that very few of the quest objectives on the side of the screen are descriptive enough that a player can do them. Also, using names is pretty important, Project Gorgon doesn't hide who exactly you should talk to, even if they don't put a huge arrow over the head. Meanwhile one of AoCs first quest is to "talk to an official". Like WTF?
Fortunately, I'd already watched videos and basically right after I got my horse, I just noped the eff out of the starting area.
@@GravitoRaize Lack of markers or quest log is not a good thing for longevity. Life happens, you jump back to game after period of time and you don't know what you were doing, where is this place you have been to already. It's always good and bad, tradeoffs.
Problem for AoC is that quests are not quests but tedious tasks.
So do you want a good mmo or a massively popular mmo?!genuinely can’t tell with your feedback. Your entire scope is built on a pve- story centric mmo… this was never going to be that
1: Good mmos are massively popular mmos. If they are good people play them. 2: Asking for a basic tutorial to a feature that has an entire research paper worth of stuff players are supposed to just... figure out has nothing to do with "a pve- story centric mmo", this is literally just asking for basic instructions on how to play the damn game.
@@bits360wastaken The game feels super niche and I don't think it will do great in the long run. If this game is pvp always on where you have to constantly group, the game will not succeed
@@bits360wastaken popularity does not equate to quality.
Dang, that breakdown deserves a full video for educational purposes.
Educational like maybe read 2 paragraphs about a game before you pay their developers $200 to test it for them.
Narc you yourself said this years ago and I think Steven said this game isn't gonna be for everybody. The fact that it's PVX is gonna turn alot of carebears away, Just look at Sodas name for his toon says it all.
I hate the term "hand holding". Making clear instructions and teaching people how to play your game is NOT "hand holding". When your kid needs to change a tire, do you show them how to do it, or do you just throw the tire iron at them and say "figure it out"?...
But you're not a kid and you have so many people around you who you can talk to.
This doesn't mean I disagree with tutorials but it's really hard
For tutorials I think you should do like X4 Foundations have done but that's just how I like it
Agreed. Basic information needed to play a game is just part of the gaming experience. Hand holding is more... when the designers literally have you running from area to area with giant arrows pointing the way.
So yeah, playing a game with a manual is not "hand holding". It's necessary info needed to actually PLAY the game effectively. To understand its systems. Hand holding is when objectives and other feats are essentially put on a platter for you, with less work involved.
So basic info about the game is one thing; telling you how to actually achieve things in the game is another. They are NOT the same thing.
Tell me you haven’t played Dark Souls without telling me you haven’t played dark souls.
@@cheeseionyt8660 "You're not a kid, you can talk to a lot of people"
You're missing the point. The point is that instructions are a basic part of a game (no matter how many people you can ask for this info). Therefore, it should be in the game regardless of other ways of getting this information. And a person's age has nothing to do with anything.
@@Ensyd this isn't dark souls tho is it.
he just is an ... and he knows becasue he named himself after it. I mean if i take an Quest to go to an Emberspring close by and the quest says i should go back to a Official, first thing i think is oh the quy who gave me the Quest right...
i feel like changing up some of the names of systems would help too. Imo "node" tells me nothing if i didn't already look up what a node is, i feel like there can be a better name to convey "this is a preset city" other than node. City center maybe? Territory point? something like that would be better if this is gonna be a core system players need to care about and able to understand fairly quickly
In general, whenever you make a game -- hell, whenever you make *anything* creative -- you should try to use in-world ("diegetic") terms whenever possible. Like, people in the world of Verra wouldn't think in terms of "nodes" would they? They'd think of "regions" or "territories", as you say. So the game should call them that. Similar with the "tank" class. That's an MMO term, not an in-world term. Why the hell hasn't that been renamed yet is beyond me.
i just want you to know i appreciate the masking on the red arrow.
"As we approach the launch in 2077" - Narc. Hahahaha!
👍
he is not wrong about the date
@@pivkemrzli2297 i know i know, i say to people, it will be awesome if this game be finished around 2040year
By then we can just play cyberpunk 2077 in real life.
stick to fanatic comedic fanboy'n ... this is much better, than rage baiting with speculation... respect is earned
This is not the starting or new player experience btw. This is alpha 2 phase 1.. I feel like some people are already forgetting that key detail. But so there's no confusion about my position, I do agree that the game needs to be a lot better than this at teaching/guiding new players.. AT LAUNCH.
They launched it after 8 years
When people forget that this alpha phase is mostly about server stability.
When you say that not telling everyone exactly where to go and what to do is gatekeeping their fun, what about the hardcore MMO audience (this game's target audience) who thinks this lack of information is fun? Is that not gatekeeping our fun? Just a thought.
Yea I played 20 minutes then decided to just wait for the beta... Probably the best decision of my life.
Gonna be a long wait lol.
Starter experience will probably be put in just before beta. Devs don't usually put resources into that until the gsme is nearly finished.
This is true of any genre, not just mmos, because if games change over iterations they dont want the tutorials to be out of date.
It's 8 years under development and they don't have an welcoming tutorial.
Doesn't seem like good management of time
@@Exorcistt94 Welcome tutorial for games usually gets put in right before beta. You don't want to create a welcome tutorial when systems are still under heavy development because things can change.
People seem to forget that the recent Alpha was to test server stability, it's not for actual gameplay and progress....... All of this will be fleshed out as the Alpha progresses. Welcome to what Alpha testing is about, not the supposed crap we have been fed the last decade as "Early Access" or beta's that are actually to see if players will accept the current build as playable.
@@tormmac here is no game... it has not released yet and will not for multiple years. Anyone who "reviews" a Alpha is a a-hole. Also show me one big modern mmo with less then 10 years dev time. Throne of Liberty had what? 13.. 14 Years?
@@tormmac They have been open and clear about the current state of the development. Reviewing a unfinished product is self defeating due to everything being subject to change. People whining about an Alpha stability test just shows they are ignorant and have not done any research and are most likely not even doing bug reports, they just whine about it and take up server space until they "Rage Quit".
@@chrisk1128why do they have any starting experience at all then?
@@da_boring_gamer3170 Most games at this stage are still under an NDA... You're comparing something unfinished (that is usually hidden and unavailable to even be compared), to completely finished games that have been fleshed out for years and years.
@@da_boring_gamer3170 Read the roadmap, it shows exactly what the testing phases are for, the 25th was to test server stability and the launcher. As the build gets more stable they will introduce more in-game mechanics and content to test those systems to ensure they are stable. All the people who are upset should wait until the Beta phases when it is more to their playability standards and the game is in it's polishing phase.
It’s an alpha most people playing are hardcore mmo players. I don’t think the new player experience is a top priority at this point. As people for help if you need assistance. It’s a social mmo.
The new player experience is what people brush off and fail to improve on the player base further. Most games nowadays suffer from catering to hardcore/pro/top players. Lots of people play by themselves.
@@modestpixel4686This is a game that has overstated itself for years as a SOCIAL mmo. If people want to play by themselves that is absolutely their choice to make, but it is not up to the developers to cater to what is ultimately a small minority when the core loop of the game and almost all of its mechanics revolve around players accomplishing things as a group. Just because the people who refuse to ask questions or investigate things on their own cant grasp how game systems work doesn't mean it should detract from our enjoyment. By the way, most games today are the exact opposite of what you are describing, with only a tiny portion of new releases really striving for a hardcore experience. The idea that every game should cater to every type of player is dumb, and results in the stagnation of unique experiences. If that means that people like the manchild in the clip can't enjoy the game for what it wants to be, so be it.
@@FellowSunBro @FellowSunBro @FellowSunBro it can state whatever it wants, it won't help get a bigger playerbase which what they'd would want as a business. you think solo players are a minority because they're solo players. You don't need to cater to them, making everything social is an opposite of it. Nowhere near I mentioned to appease every player.
Soda is a manchild, but this type frustration was mentioned by other content creators numerous times. People can't "grasp" the systems because they're poorly explained if at all. Bombarding player with pages of text isn't the solution.
Why are we talking about this for an Alpha Phase that has absolutely nothing to do with content? They literally wanted the bare miniumum of things in the game so people could do something while they test what they are actually there for lol
Ppl are mad that an alpha doesn’t have tutorial
@@maverickmoncrief5969 It should have though, they had all that time to cook
There really should be a basic tutorial. Especially considering the current length of development. BASIC. Does not need to be an entire codex of tutorials.
@@XiLock_Alotx There will be, the team is focused on getting the game playable without networking issues. Why does it matter if there's a tutorial when the game is rubberbanding all over the place?
Just be patient, I am sure the team has stuff in works. Once the game is in a playable state we can start giving feedback on progression.
@@maverickmoncrief5969 I think its more that we are mad that A2 is basically worse in every way compared to A1. The game is legit going backwards.
I didn't like that I had to compete with hundreds of players for a few level 2 mobs. When I attacked a mob, if I didn't get most damage or killing blow I don't get XP, it was horrible. It is so difficult to test when you cannot test without being bombarded by hundreds of players. They need more areas to test in with level 1-2 mobs we can figure stuff out on.
It's pretty dumb at the beginning. You should get at least fair share of exp based of hoe many % of HP you took.
Ashes of Creation for a known have a ton of sexy stories how this world will be alive, but I don't buy it
I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I was really taken aback by the clip of Sodapoppin. I’ve never watched him, but dude has serious anger issues. It’s one thing to be frustrated or confused, but that’s a lot of over the top yelling and f-bombing for someone sitting comfortably at home playing a frickin game.
All he had to do was read what was on the screen in front of him. Ask in global. Ask his own chat. Ask his creator friends. Join a group.
Press M to open the Map and look at the legend for the icons.
This was a toddler tantrum, 100% beginning to end.
PS This man paid $200 to test a game he knew nothing about then got mad at THE DEVELOPERS because he knew nothing about it. What a dipshit.
They play it up to be entertaining as well
LOL yeah thats just how Soda is.
YES!! artisan skills should be introduce later, like when you're settled in a node.. we dont wanna be crafting at the start of the game, give us lore give us story to progress and immerse ourselves before you introduce the other things.
Welcome to Alpha ...... if you Want Story i suggest World of Warcraft and every other mmorpg that are out now
Player corruption - it's basicaly same as it was in Lineage 2, but I hope there will be atleast wars between clans/aliances. Uncertainity of being attacked by random guy or party in wilderness was big part of Lineage 2 and it was hell of fun. If you are lone wolf or just low level without clan, there is no intention to kill you becouse of corruption system, but in Clan, you should be viewed as valid target for other hostile clans.
The only reason this happened is they don't have tutorials in the game yet. I'm sure there will be a new player experience that introduces all of this stuff at some point
One can only hope
When all you have done in your life is follow arrows, when you have to stop and think, that is when reality hits, and it hits so god damned hard. Lmao
It's abit nuts to me to make an indepth tutorial for a game in deep development, that said a clear UI, map with key/legend will help alot.
Not really. Tutorials/introduction is one of the most important things you should work on before releasing game to players. Beta tests that people can access in mass are this kind of release.
@@lionart5230 but this is an alpha test. so technically u are correct, i believe beta version will be much better.
While i agree with some of soda's criticisms, its unrealistic to expect detailed tutorials when its still alpha and thise systems may change which wiuld require tutorials to be rewritten. It makes much more sense to make tutorials for the release (or maybe beta)
However this is the downside to allowing people to pay for access to test, they will come accross things you arent prepared to address yet
I disagree. This game is no where near where it should be after 8 years.
You dont want AoC to be like POE. Please dont require the game to be played half outside the game.
Make the game linear until lvl 10 and can become a citizen that should be more than enough time to get the basics. Make crafting system side quests that can be picked up from any trainers in the world so you can start to learn about the system whenever you like. Create some sort of in game glossary that you can review as you wish so if you do something and forget you can just refer to glossary(genshin impact is the perfect example of that)
Maybe a Verapedia that is in the game or even accessible through in game books or libraries. Not a true tutorial but an in game resource where you can go and learn. Or you could just ask other players but I know that's not as reliable as it could/should be.
He wouldn't have read it
I liked New World style "offline" starting quest. You learned all about story and combat.
Yeah, I mean, that's the problem I guess. That we're now going to get so many people going into the alpha with the expectation of a finished game, and then get completely indignated because "what the hell, this game sucks, it's not explaining anything and there's like no content!"
Hopefully common sense prevails, for once, and this doesn't tarnish the image of the game too much ahead of release...
Then again, release will be far enough from now that any mainstream sentiment would've been forgotten trice over.
Starter experience def needs an overhaul, although I have a feeling its a bit placeholder'y atm
SODAING
I can't stand bad UX, I'd be just as triggered if not more.
These amateur life/mana bars are giving me anxiety...
What soda actually did was give an authentic representation of how someone totally new to Ashes will experience things. It's important he acted the way he did. Soda is a smart dude, try not to see what he did as childish because, "It's only an alpha." I think he knew what he was doing. We need representatives like him who aren't years deep in copium pointing out this stuff and aren't just going to seethe with useless feedback or be a suck up to Steven.
no
But the thing is , this is a specific version of the game designed to test specific things. He and others are complaining about things without this knowledge somehow thay it's truely and alpha test and not representing of the final or even current state of the true game experience.
@@maxrusty3596the UI not being intuitive is good feedback, he doesn’t have to praise the game in the alpha. They WANT people to critique it so they can make it better.
nah, he gave an authentic representation of a smoothbrain trying actual content.
@@sangheilizealot5787 yes.
I may be just old, but coming from Everquest where the "quests" were pretty much all hidden and involved week long spawn timers and 72-man raid quests for several parts... watching this Sodapop fella whine with impotent rage about things that took no time at all to figure out, complaining an unfinished game didn't spoon feed him. was painful to watch.
Look. Read. Explore. Interact.
That dude seriously needs to go back to hello kitty island adventure or whatever with your glowing quest trails and "pay 20$ to be max level" content is waiting for him.
I miss a game where I feel like I actually accomplished something. Feel proud to have achieved what I have done, rather than get my participation badge and free epic loot. It's my hope that with enough work AoC is the game I've been waiting for. My hope still remains, anyhow.
I just hope Steven sticks to his vision. frustrated grownup children should be ignored.
@@ivoivic2448 I have little doubt he will; he didn't sink millions of his own money and years of his life to make a clone of a game we already have and got bored of.
My only concern is the whiners will make enough bad press to limit how many players actually try the game and it won't be sustainable upon launch.
@@Genosis I'm not the one who sunk millions into a project, but I'd be so bold to say that press can't impact jack if a game is good. The only ones who will be persuaded by press are short attention span normies who just want to play "the next big thing". they'll be gone within months anyway.
Fkn exactly! I want that deep sandbox experience of coming through the portal and just immersing myself. Soda and his ilk are too used to braindead leveling by using step by step guide addons and gps/autopilot in wow. Afk zooming from "!" to "?" is just how to make your game only about max level stuff and then die until next patch.
100% agree
I went into A2 without ever having looked at the wiki, I got confused a couple of times but not very much. I think the expectation of purely using quests to level up is a symptom of wow, I went out and did world events instead.
But do you have reason to do that? Is there any goal, purpose? Is it indicated that you need to get strong, armor up for some things to come? Are you told that there is different city out there and you could check it out? I don't mean go from A to B, do C. Just a little nudge in direction to show you the world and give another purpose to chase. Or give you list of things you can progress.
@@lionart5230 I agree, the world and story need incentivising to explore. The hook. The flavour. The setting and context. You can and - should - be able to carve your own story in this world, but - why you should - still needs to happen. The why should be presented as early as possible so that you can then start exploring who and what you want to do in said world.
Quests do need better direction and I'm sure it will improve. Hopefully not super hand holdy like WoW. But this is not the point of Alpha 2 phase 1 AT ALL. There are so many creators that came into this expecting a near full game like wtf.
You know what? I dont get it.. People complain nowdays about everthing. Its an Alpha Version, means the Product is not even near finished. It still takes years till the game comes out. As i saw in the Creators Live Stream of different persons, the game sure has bugs, but looks fun too. Its the same, as back time with BG 3 and all the complain about the early access game not fun at all. After the Release it was overhelmed with positiv reviews and prices..
People should get just a bit relaxed....
The problem with that line of thinking is you let things through that shouldn't because you think it's not going to be problem at launch but it will be because the devs don't know it's a problem because no one told them because it's not OK to criticize an incomplete game.
Sound like this guy belongs on a mobile game that does the quests for him
So you basically just ignored the whole video?
but the game wants to allow anyone to focus on anything there will be pure crafters so the sandbox style fits games try too hard to please everyone and it usually dulls their game out so i prefer they stick to how it is and do what they are doing
A game like that in todays market is going to fail. There arent enough of those types of players left anymore.
@@TheNichq so you can confirm that people dont want that anymore? you asked everyone? youre just as silly as the wow dev that told the community that they wouldnt want wow classic.
The best approach to this is simple. When you create a character at some point in the creation screen or after you log in have a way to engage with the player and give them however many choices are needed to learn the game in playable tutorials. For example, ask the player "What interests you most" list the categories, Combat, Skilling, Housing, fkn picking onions whatever. From there remove as much UI as possible and guide them step by step on a small 5-10 minute experience detailing and interacting with that specific choice. Once that is done do it again and again for each category and continue to do it later on In the game as new things arise. As you finish each one leave the UI on screen and keybound. Slowly integrate the UI and Systems to the player so you don't overwhelm them.
Doing it this way makes the player responsible for what happens next and the only reason they would stop is if it's not for them and they don't enjoy it. That is the feedback loop the devs would use to change things up. it's literally a win win for both parties.
Allow players to skip them if they choose as some people like to figure things out from themselves.
Funny, back in the day he quit Archeage too for almost the same reason.
and there is a pretty good quest line in archeage all about crafting
This game is so going to bomb. Esp for the new gen. Not enough old gen players to keep it going.
No hand holding was GREAT when it came to games like EverQuest because they were not that complex. And I still love when games don't hold your hand. I look forward to games like Monsters and Memories or Pantheon. But when it comes to Ashes of Creation... hand holding is a bit needed, especially at the start. You can't expect people to just know what to do. Not everyone, myself included, want to read through a wiki before playing.
Tutorials are NOT hand holding.
@@boredfangerrude8759 Ok, Thank you.
Grief! Grief! Grief new players!
Typical retail WoW player. I've never liked him. But, unfortunately that is the norm these days. Its not like how it was back in the UO days where you're dropped in and you have to find out things for yourself.
If you dont bring in the WoW players, then AoC is doomed before it launches. Its that simple. This game isnt going to be sustainable with a few thousand players.
"back in muh UO days" your ilk have literally killed every single one of these MMOs that ever tried to release, and you have still learned nothing. Yes, you even killed UO.
@@TheNichq I think there are other playerbases, not just WoW's that would like to play AoC. At this point in time I hate the average Retail WoW player, their sense of community is gone and only the zoomer meta slave mindset is all that's left. I rather not have WoW players in AoC.
I laughed out loud at "when the game launches in 2077." Lol so good.
Also, great video Narc. I think everything you said makes sense and I hope Intrepid listens
Regardless of whether or not the guy was right he comes off as just an immature, whiny, baby who doesn't understand the concept of an alpha.
The starting experience is not what is being currently tested. It's as simple as that.
This is why public access to alpha, without any basic vetting, is a bad idea. Nothing new here.
People seems to forget that before Company pays you to playtest (QA - Play Tester). I don't know who started this concept, that you need to pay to play an Alpha.
@@carlstong Intrepid cannot hire 500+ QA testers to test the really important things which the game cant function without. Like a networking backend that can handle insane amounts of people and server meshing.
Intrepid isnt a large storied game studio with 10+ years of making games together like blizzard or arenanet or square has had.
@@carlstong Oh right so business models change but we should just do it the old way and use all comparison to the old way. If you join an ALPHA and expect a finished game you're going to have a bad time.
They shouldnt have been showing anything about this game until maybe this year imo.
lol narcs like give these carbears guidance.... Growing up in ultima online was the most savage experience, you just gotta do it. Legit, no quests, no direction i think the most you got was an introduction to the healer as you stumbled across him. Other than that it was spawn and go explore. Point is this is a part of the "root" exprience. We shouldnt be telling the devs to make things easier or to make them guided/linear this is whats wrong with the world of mmo's today. Back then you played a game and enjoyed it because it was unique, new, and that held your intrest then your grew your character and evolved. Today people emmediately compliain and quit because its not made the way they want it.
But Ultima was hardcore. You died, you lost your stuff. It was part of experience because it was designed this way. I prefer to have direction, even simple one because I love immersion. Now imagine if you are spawned in other world, in middle of nowhere. Would you want to go and explore? Where? Why? Some people like it, lack of direction or purpose. Others prefer to have it. Not a hand holding experience, I assure you, just an idea that behind these mountains, there is rumor that dwarven fortress entrance is hidden. And there you can find epic treasures as well as your own end... Book that paints inside your mind, rather than being thrown to library where you don't know which book should you start with.
@lionart5230 I, me, i prefer... At the root is the issue. It wasnt about your preference. It was about devs making what they wanted and US the gamers living thru it. Instead of US trying to control and change it to our preference.
@@Warbringar Yeah, simple as it is. I might want to try it and if it doesn't work for me, I won't play it. I am not going to try and ask developer to make this game suit my needs. I will take it for what it is. Someone has right to design experience according to their preferences and you can judge/critic this experience, say that it sucks and move on. If majority response will be that, game won't be popular. If it won't capture it's core audience, it won't survive and fulfill it's purpose.
@@lionart5230 history has shown games that dont cater to the audience thrive and survive. Ie ultima still exists to date, Everquest.. You are still I, meeing and stating your preferences and then saying it wont succeed if it doesnt. Lets agree to disagree.
@@Warbringar That's invalid. They extremally cater to audience. Just specific ones. Game without target audiences ends up like Concord or Dustborn did. Ultima already had franchise lovers as target audience and they made more of what people like. I am not sure about Everquest, what was initial idea, probably MUDs?
Why would anyone be shocked that an alpha was missing all of the polish, tutorials, and quests? Soda just making easy click bait streamer content, his specialty.
Because its an Alpha with 8 years of dev time. AoC still needs 3-4 more years. WoW took 7 years to release vanilla AND their first xpac.
@TheNichq totally get that, but if Blizzard let people log into a technical alpha / network stress test, it would have the same issues
Is this the Ashes of creation Alpha that cost 120 dollars?
Making a tutorial for how to interact with player driven systems is extremely difficult and likely to be out of date after a few months (due to players changing how they interact with the world), but it does seem necessary. I'm glad I'm not the one who has to design this system.
Explaining systems and how and what to look for in the areas you are ins is important. But if you make my ui look like wow or an ea game or an ubisoft game i wont even play. I want to know what matters now.
Its not "gatekeeping fun" the fun is figuring out the game. Too often in recent years do players optimize the fun out of games only for them to be beaten in record time and dropped for the next dopamine hit.
Older games were great because they deopped you in and let you figure them out, I like the concept of a game that is slow paced and relies on its players making all the guides and tutorials because that forces community interaction and it becomes a puzzle that a collective is trying to solve rather than a task a choice few are racing to beat.
I really hope they don't cater this game to baby brained streamers that need their simps to feed them everything for them to have fun. Handholding systems are incredibly immersion breaking, and that's even more important in a game like this. I just want to play a game that recreates how you feel when you login to an MMO for the very first time and have no idea wtf is going on; that's what creates the desire to explore and fulfills a sense of wonder that you can't get in a lot of modern games. Meta slaves could easily ruin this games systems as well, and I can only hope that Steven Sharif is aware of this cancer.
You are only new once though. It's a very small slice of your total time in the game. This isn't the place to gatekeep.
dont think testing is his thing or maybe mmo's isnt his thing
Intrepid knows that it needs more in the starting area. Not sure why Narc thinks they dont know. Useless video about things they already know needs work.
Well, I found an "emberspring" by accident but could not interact with it at all. I was supposed to somehow "attune" my essence to it. So, there's that.
This looks amazing. It basically means I'm not going to run the main story line and be trapped in endless loops of running the same crap over and over for a tiny little bump to ilvl. It also means the players that have knowledge also have additional worth besides I'm a tank and I go bonk.
You know, you went through all of that, and compared to other MMOs, I don't even know if Ashes is even that mechnically dense. Maybe a little more on the player progression side, but when talking about WoW for example you have Delves, Dungeons, Warbands, The Great Vault, Heirlooms, Achievements, Addons (not necessarily required, but the vast majority of players have at least 1), battle pets, classes, specs, skill trees, class trees, leveling, the auction house, professions, M+, M0, PvP, Battlegrounds, Arena, Raids, Heroic, Mythic, Embellishments, profession specialization/leveling, work orders, transmogs, world events/quests, reputation/renown, trading post, and I'm sure there's a couple other things I missed. And this is from the WoW expansion that was keeping things simple.
If you think Ashes has a lot of mechanics, then I just think you don't play MMOs. They are meant to keep you playing and in the world and offer players multiple opportunities to differentiate and specialize themselves. They almost by definition have to have large maps, lots of different mechanics/features, and be overwhelming if introduced all at once. So I don't see the high complexity as necessarily knock. If anything, I think it means that Ashes has a pretty good sense of what it means to be an MMORPG
I'll be honest I don't see anything that would cause confusion other than typical braindead gameplay.... The dude who TOLD you to go to the emberspring. Thats who you need to talk to again afterwards... Pretty basic questing logic 😂
Nothing that I've seen in the game seems difficult to understand, if you actually read.. nesting tooltips would be nice for explaining status effects caused by spells, but I assume that'll work better/be present in the future anyways.
I prefer having fewer markers 'telling me' where to go. And more exploration/critical thinking. I don't need the map telling me what's interesting... I'll go find out.
Nothing bothers me more than listening to a grown man whine like a bratty child. Sorry the game didnt highlight every step you needed to take? Sorry you don't understand quests enough to return to the guy who gave it to you after you finished it?
You said much, while at the same time saying very little.... The idea that a game must inform the player of every detail of functioning systems and even has a moral obligation to do so or else they "fail" is a really deep seated personal ignorance probably even a fear.
Learning is part of the game and is best done through live play, the game has no obligation to teach you and good games do little more than nudge you in the general direction so you can figure things out on your own....
Stop expecting to have your little hand held and informed of all relevant game mechanics in the "starting experience" because of lowest common denominator player being unable to figure out basic MMO mechanics.
Your own personal expectations do not set the standard for good development...
Using a streamer who is generally not very good at general MMO knowledge and also consistently "ACTS" considerably dumber than he actually is for content as a baseline for pushing your personal opinion is just sad.
If you do not have the personal drive to push into a new MMO and learn the game, no amount of tutorial island is going to help you make it.
I try not to click the like button before I watch the content, but then you hit us with that Ayyyy whatup boys and I can't help myself
go play wow, if you want an mmo to hold your hand. I don't trust Ashes of Creation, but people should figure shit out, that is part of the appeal - look at it online, whatever. or just go play wow
Tutorials in an MMO should be a streamlined solo experience that drops the player off in the actual world AFTER its given the player the tools and knowledge they will need to move forward, call that hand holding or whatever but if you want to entice new players to your game then those are absolute necessities, getting mad at new players for not knowing what to do when the gamr gives you no way of knowing what to do and pushing for a full no hand holding policy and will ensure the game dies in a month or two
Everyone that is having so much to complain about right now, know this is in Alpha 2 right? "oh the game is not flushed out".... well duh talking about it and making a bug report about it is needed. But crying about it isn't going to do anything but make the one complain look like a joke. If it is still that big of a problem by beta then sure cry about it.
When you say stop gate keeping ppls fun boomers. You are in fact gate keeping the boomers fun. You forget that old school mmo players enjoy difficulty, learning how to do something difficult is way more rewarding then hand holding and solo grinding easy gameplay. Boy if a dungeons dont give me fear for over pulling then its not as fun. If you forget the old mmos didn't teach shit, ppl figured it out then, the players trained newbies it is what made mmos, mmos. Please mmos are ment to be social games its what makes them feel alive.
Also, if you run out of mana and get low on HP, it's better to create a new character. Waiting to regain mana and health by sitting down is pointless because if you run out of your 8,000 rations, it will take 8 hours due to the terrible health/mana regeneration rate. This issue could be fixed in 2 minutes, yet somehow it hasn't been addressed. I had six friends who spent hundreds of dollars and quit after just 30 minutes of gameplay because of this mana/health problem.
Spot on assessment of the starting experience
The thing with the majority of today players, is that they need instant reward, because of the fast serotonin culture we're living on.
AoC is a game for people who dedicates themselves to complex gameplay and lore. That's why games like Ragnarok Online have low player pop and CoD has a higher player pop
I daresay the current iteration of that quest was something they have in place to test the artisan side of things and that is it, I doubt that this will make it to the final product at its current stage. The Devs did make massive changes to that first quest already from PA2 to A2 by localizing all the gathering done, in PA2 you had to go open world to find all that and it was a nightmare. Hopefully they do develop a good new player experience as the production progresses.
Most people should not be in this alpha test is what it comes down to. Maybe they should've opened it up to phase 3 instead, but who cares at this point. If you're really gonna pay attention to content creators who know nothing about the game then that's on you. Their opinion holds 0 value for this stage of the game development cycle
for crafting skills there should be a series of quests like archeages blue salt brotherhood quest line, something that will start you out with the most basic how to get/craft x and then slowly work you up to the higher tier stuff.
Thank you! That's what I've been saying dude. Get me in the combat first. If they keep the starting zone how it is, with no combat, people are going to drop out of the game like flies. Crafting should be one of the last things introduced as it is one of the most intricate and niche aspects of the game. Lord only knows why they thought introducing gathering and crafting first was a good idea.
You want a tutorial? That's fine. But I refuse to pretend that any of these mechanics or systems are particularly complicated or convoluted. I find a lot of enjoyment in exploring an unknown world and having to look up or ask other players about things I dont understand and feeling involved in a community that is learning and growing together. That isn't "gatekeeping people's fun." It is prioritizing my OWN fun over that of a moron who cant be bothered to tie his own shoes. It is not my responsibility to advocate for the lowest common denominator when we are talking about a specific game as well as an entire genre of games that has always catered to the types of people who like to immerse themselves in a community and figure things out together.
Forming our opinions about video games based on overreacting entertainers on twitch. Welcome to the fucking 2020's everyone
Lets be fair. If you cared about this game, you probably paid for Beta or received it by participating early on in development, feedback etc. Now it's all tourists/people who just learned about game existence or never gave a fuck about the game/are not interested about idea. For me, I knew it will take time to release, I don't want to spend time on progress that will be reset or learn game that will change before release. I am not part of development/team so it's not my game, I am here to play once it's finished. Once it finishes and I will be looking for MMO to play, I will give it a fair shot without any fucking guide on start (why would you do it to yourself? why destroy your initial experience...) and see how it is.
But some people who comment, never wanted to play. Others are balls deep in game and know about every system in existence. It's hard to see it all through.
How could people be asking what a node is? Nodes are the mechanic that made AoC stand out from the thousand other MMOs out there. Go and watch the original Kickstarter video, people
I hope they also rework the Interface of the game. It looks much too flashy and fits more into a Sci-Fi MMO not into a mediaval style MMO. They should focus on earthen/wood colors and make it a bit darker. Also develop a own style in it. Atm it looks like a bough UI-Template which could be used in any other MMO too
They have mentioned many times (and documented in their wiki) that the new player experience will not be implemented until the beta testing phase. So just like no one should complain that "the rogue class isn't available!" during this alpha, no one should complain about the new player experience.
You are testers. Soda chose to pay for the option to TEST the very core mechanics of the game. Complaining about the state of the game just... makes no sense
When I learned to do action camera cleave while targeting the tank with my healing I was level 9. Which solo leveling equals 6 days, for me atleast.
Combat definitive is my favorite part. I rushed the crafting part now I sell my junk rather than crafting.
Who pays $150 to test an alpha for a game they don't know ANYthing about? Seems like that's on HIM.
FWIW the little silver square is clearly labeled on the Map and some of those other icons, too, he just had to OPEN THE MAP BY PRESSING M.
Mini maps almost never have legends when there's an overlay map which does.
Also, he thought the book was a quest, but the book is an active NPC who talks to you and also a quest GIVER or receiver (when you meet the reqs to trigger it). So yeah, it is pretty much like a quest? Either way, book = talking npc vs it's a quest is not worth rage-quitting over.
The new player experience SUCKS, that's 100% true, but in parallel this guy needs to take a nap. Not even touch grass; just get more sleep. He needs to take some ownership of his own situation when he wakes up.
Also, this is an alpha; alphas don't typically prioritize the new player experience. I'm not saying they SHOULDN'T just that they DON'T. So it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Again ,that's NOT AN EXCUSE for failing at that, it's just the reality.
EDIT: I guess in lieu of a nap when he's testing a game he knows nothing about he could
A) Open the wiki on his other monitor
B) Use chat to ask people for help since this is a MULTI-PLAYER GAME
C) Ask his followers for help--what the fuck were they doing this whole time, just laughing?
D) Ask to group up with other content creators
So yeah, the more I look at this, the more this guy just looks like a huge man baby.
People want their hand held when they should just experience and enjoy the journey
Lol that players reaction--he acts that way because it drives views. I DO AGREE the starter area/tutorials need to be fleshed out. I'm sure they'll come after the network/stability testing
I think my brain started leaking out when he explained the systems in the game
It's blunt and a little vulgar, but he's 100% right that the "onboarding" (not hand holding) experience is critical and it's obvious when it's not good.
back when people could communicate, other than write youtube comments, mmos actually functioned pretty well without tutorials.
Just a little vulgar! :))
@@ivoivic2448 That's because the systems involved.... go bonk skeleton, get xp and loot, repeat
@@BraamBafflehelm it was always go bonk skeleton. it's just that back when people could communicate, they actually asked in chat "where is skeleton?" instead of whining on youtube that the game has no tutorials about skeleton bonking areas.
@@ivoivic2448 no one answers now except with get gud. If you want retention you have to have some direction.
They really shouldn't call them "nodes" in the actual game to begin with, it's using a development programmer term in a player-facing way. "City"/"City State" "Territory" "Region" " are the type of words that should be used and the word chosen should depend on the direction they are taking the game's atmosphere and character. Use weird, fantasy appropriate words. Maybe i'm wrong because i see node used constantly in programming and graph contexts or maybe you all are just way too deep in this project that the "node" weirdness has become normal
I’d say once you can play the game without it crashing and bugging is when you can start working on the starting experience.
People who talk about a game that is in very early alpha phase like it's the final game release. Don't expect all the final polish on any part of it, especially the starting zone.
It might be an idea to have a dedicated "game info" type section that explains the various game systems, terminology etc, with some nice easy to understand graphics.
Possibly also a video at the beginning to intro each new player to the game.
This is as well as tutorial quests to show us the ropes.
Agreed the beginning should be more linear.
I don't want a linear start that insults my intelligence, but they should and will probably have a chunky ingame systems guide. For now though it's tech alpha and we have a wiki and a discord.
Can't rent a room at an inn without being a citizen? Seems a bit forced. You would think renting is the one thing you can do without being a citizen.
I have played MMOs for a long time, and the onboarding has me a little stressed out. Holy shit that is a lot of systems