The line between victim and perpetrator isn't a fine line. There is overlap. In cults victims are groomed to be perpetrators. Without turning victims into perpetrators cults can't be sustained.
Yes that! I was really shocked/annoyed about that choice of words. If there was a „line“ Allison would be either perpetrator or victim. It is obvious she is both. And her being a victim doesn‘t make her acts of violence and sadism less cruel, even if groomed into it. The interview would have been very different if done by one of the women/survivors with branding…. There are people like mark Rinder, who also have been or are both, and like him see the harm they have done. even though mark has survived the violence and oppression and has been „groomed“ into Scientology, he is not shying away from the reality of the harm he dealt to people. I appreciate that.
@@GrowingUpInScientology It doesn’t matter to define a line blurred or not. Both victim and predator are the truth. There isn‘t a point where one begins and the other finishes because it is one person. She can be accountable for her wrongdoings and still be a Victim herself and need help! There can be occasions where the predator/groomer is mostly a victim, in organised child abuse and life threatening abusive situation where the choice is my life or theirs. Still they will always know what they did and that it was wrong to the core, exactly because they are victims/survivors themselves. Otherwise they‘re psychopaths. (Sorry english is not my first language! I hope my point is understandable)
Great collaboration. I got sucked in to I tiny cult when I was 25 . I was only there for a few months before they kicked me out for shutting down and not sharing my thoughts and feelings. Even after such a short time, I was destroyed and felt suicidal. I’ve long healed from the experience. My heart goes out to all victims of cults.
I really believe the vast majority of cult leaders are sociopaths, at the least. It's good you got out, and survived the fallout. It's too easy to just conform, or give up. It takes real inner strength to survive.
One of the things that I have learned in my life is rather disturbing. People cannot see what they don't want to see, And they imagine seeing whatever they want to see. Nobody can lie to you better than yourself.
Thank you for this interview! NXIVM has a lot to teach former Scientologists and may even help current members wake up! I hope to see more interviews like this in the future. Consider having guests like Mark Vicente, who is working on a film about narcissism, or Sarah Edmondson.
@LichenAndMoss it may show what happened to that cult, but bear in mind that I am using voice voice to text. Please take that into consideration because voice to text doesn’t always put things down the way I would like it to bear in mind that Scientology is far more insulated and runs like a mafia, in many aspects of how it functions you say it’s like a warning or a wake up call to them it won’t be they won’t see it that way because of the fact that they are a cult .
This is a fun team-up and a great interview. It's wonderful that there are people willing to share to their failings so that others are less likely to repeat them. God bless all three of you, and those soon to escape their abusive situations as well.
I'm glad Nancy Salzman was placed right under Keith and above Allison. Her part in NXIVM was larger than is being seen for the most part. She was with Keith from the beginning, but not subjected to the food/sleep deprivation or required to give any collateral. She also brought her daughter in who ended up at about the same level as Allison. Allison was definitely recruited/groomed in part because she was an actress in Hollywood at the time.
First of all thank you so much for your really fantastic conversation and I was almost alluding to Nexium when I was 16 years old it was the weirdest thing I was just packing to go on some seminars and when I was 14 I almost joined a group called the Moonies and something inside of me on both occasions told me that it really wasn’t something that I wanted to do and I I didn’t pursue it and I feel very privileged some high spirits something looking after me now that I’m following the case of these tragic people whose lives have been ruined I have to say that rather than searching externally for gratification,Now I have therapy and the therapy helps we connect that in a self that in the knowledge and I can’t believe how lucky I am I have a lot of issues but the therapy is helping and I’ve learnt the hard way that it’s always best to look inside rather than outside and you’ve helped me so much with your interviews thank you all for your contribution
I thought Allison was so good in her TV show. When I heard about this cult, I went UH OH, OH NO. Very Sad. After listening to your whole blog and reading everybody’s comments I’m kind of shocked that I started primal therapy around 1972 in Boulder Colorado and our food intake & Sleep deprivation was severe. A cult? Problem is it was the best and the worst thing I ever did in my life. Our group fell apart after the partner that I was assigned to committed suicide. I warned them about him and I believe nothing much was done. It’s a memory of him that I will never forget. I developed the severe illness of endometriosis afterwards. This is the first time I thought this might’ve been a cult. Thank you so much for your blog. If you are interested about primal therapy conducted by my “therapists” directed by the founding leader I’ll be glad to answer any questions.
As a victim of severe domestic violence that lasted for over 14 years ( i married at the tender age of just 16 years old ), this now i see with crystal clarity for what it was, ( i unfortunately was running away from trauma regarding childhood sex abuse & the aftermath of enduring a physical mental breakdown. During my abusive marriage i like many other victims knew that to so much as verbally attempt to stand up for myself ensured a brutal physical onslaught. So from that perspective i understand how coercive control & manipulation manifests itself. However i could not ever perceive the heinous inhumane act of branding being normal.
@@rosebudame Hi, thank you so much for your kind words. Thankfully i found escape from my psychopathic narcissist husband over 23 years ago ( although still i had to move 5 tines to finally find peace ), ...along the way i have aided 4 other women to escape their abusive partners. I continue to advocate against domestic violence ( regardless of gender) & others like myself still share their own personal experiences with me via facebook & my twitter page.
@@peterquincytaggart463 Your wonderful words i thank you for but advocating for & helping others who have suffered ( or indeed continue to be enduring ) is something i that i'll endeavour to do always. As too both an intuitive empath & sensitive with added psychic gifts i'm able to pick up on who people are , ( while also feeling their moods ) which while watching this & other videos the overwhelming emotions if sadness, anger, pain trauma etc i have to ensure do mot engulf me.
@Dreambeliever1 I can relate I get overwhelmed from what I call vibes from things/people on these types of videos and such. I still wish I could take their pain and abuses away so they never went through this at all.
Wow. I watched both part one and two of this and found it an incredible discussion. Absolutely riveting actually. The whole idea of mind control and how far one will go is pretty mind blowing. I'm glad that Kelly was able to see her way out of this cult. I think her own sense of self is what saved her. It's wonderful she is speaking out ! A great interaction between the three of you. Thanks so much !
This interview and all these discussions regarding cults reminds me of the saying “hurt people hurt people”. Instead of a person working on themself to be the change they wish to see, they look outside themself and to manipulate their environment. Instead of doing the shadow work, they choose to ignore or feed the chaos that festers inside them which leads to greater destruction of the individual and those around them. A broken individual cannot lead by example. Instead, they’ll use force and coercion of others to bring their ideals to fruition.
The most concerning thing with the NXIVM here in the UK at the time they had a school in Kensington Andrew . it was called the Rainbow Cultural Garden . I raised it with OFSTED and NSPCC and not one reply at the time .
44:35 exactly… his opening line to all the women he brings in to do his bidding is “are you a hugger?” He wants to see how easy she is to control and this woman wasn’t easy enough nor impressed with him enough
I agree. Also replying to you since right around this same timestamp they also talk about the volleyball. Which I never heard about before this. WTF is that? The other funny thing is, I happen to HATE volleyball. So I would have been safe from this cult -- would've Noped out as soon as they wanted me to play volleyball. 😂
@@JW-vd4il almost every night they would play volleyball into the wee hours of 3 or 4 am. If you wanted to prove your dedication and fortitude you would go and stay the whole time. Keith loved volleyball. Usually it’s men playing and women just sitting in the bleachers. If you wanted a chance to say something to him personally, you will wait for a short lull and approach him, if someone else hasn’t grabbed him first. This was also a way to push sleep deprivation on his people. All his “staff” have been up since Atleast 7am and attending the game keeps you up to 3 or 4… knowing that you have to be ready to go again at 7am. He told all of them that he is so enlightened he doesn’t need sleep so they wanted to show they could keep up with him but the truth was he was a night owl and slept all day!
@J W My ex-husband loved volleyball, and he'd demand that we play together (even though I hated volleyball and really sucked at it). I'd have big red welts on my forearms, and he'd just call me a "pus*y" and tell me to suck it up. This was when we were dating (around 18 YO), and I didn't have the balls to stand up to him and leave until many years later. I've never played volleyball since 😆😆.
'Handlers', is that a tip off? Everyone tattles on one another, tip off? Hold these and confess your wrong-doings, tip off? Give us ALL of your money, tip off? Recruit others, tip off? Buy another booklet, tip off?
@@jaslady22 If there happened to be a curious prevalent odor of sulfur and/or brimstone, like with W. Strieber and his alien encounter in "Communion"; then that might have been rather a large tip-off, as well. I say "might"; because even that didn't appear to be enough of an off-putting tip-off, let alone red flag, for M. Strieber -- not even after he came down with an apparently terminal case of Stockholm Syndrome after not quite a little bit. Not to knock the horrific internal human struggle inherently endemic to the process of incoming alien spiritual temptation, mind you [and it can be absolutely unearthly terrifying unto overall thanatophobic paralysis, unless mitigated by the authoritative power of someone essentially stronger than the alien spirit to begin with], mind you: It's simply to be able -- by the mercy of Divine Providence -- to recognize the tell-tale signs of alien spiritual bellicosity, and thus to not will to have spiritual congress with these Invisible Psychic Robbers ever again. "Run away! Run away!" Curiously enough, that is probably generally sound advice for any noetic warrior still occupying rank in the novitiate; as it were. It's only the seasoned fighters who have any sort of valuable experience in dealing with such things. Once I matriculate from Preschool, I probably will begin to learn some more about my own personal educational path, if you will... 😊😊😊
The things that stuck out to me through watching documentary and other interviews with members was that Keith made every member kiss him on the lips (yuck)! They would receive text messages 24/7 with demands of what to do eg get up at 3am and run this far etc… there was one member who was locked in a room for several months and no one was to have contact with her (imprisoned) and in one of the courses they had their partner sleep on the floor.
When I watched Tom jump up and down on the sofa because of his love for Katie Holmes, that's when I started to dislike Hollywood. Why am I looking at these people!
Andrew Gold is literally the media saying "Tom Cruise the scientologist, Tom Cruise the scientologist" that Aaron is talking about within the first two minutes of the video.
Yes, in the sense that narcissists often use other narcissists as their lieutenants. Miscavige, Cruise, Raniere and Mack are all narcissists. They all use/used each other for their own ends.
True, as with the Nazi Party there is a sadomasochistic element to this. Those who like to abuse and dominate also like being abused and dominated. It's a codependent relationship, both feed off of each other.
Fascinating interview. I think one of the big mistakes DOS made was in recruiting so many women so quickly, particularly those who were married or in serious relationships.
And also Kelly I agree with you about Alison if you look at the videos of the first meeting with Keith it was obvious that she was pray he knew what he was doing he was manipulating her and she was just seeking and seeking and seeking and vulnerable and you can see how he just lures her in she was very childlike and I do feel that she is a victim and I do agree that on 500 cal a day that doesn’t make you a perpetrator that makes you having serious mental health issues and dependency issues and it takes a vulnerable woman to understand this
In The Vow season 1 Keith had som crazy homemade psychological theories about developmental psychology which is utter BS. Little boys are traumatized for not getting love from their mother while little girls didn't have real traumas because they just had to be princesses! Something like that. I'm convinced his teaching was a mirror of his own developmental issues which he was fixated in and they were projected and tried internalized in to every body else and therefore he would not have to deal with his own issues. I's called projective identification, but it doesn't really work that good, so the person would use this strategy over and over again. That lead to equal crazy theories about the roles and relationships between men and women, fx the Standford Prison experiment. What was he thinking!! So much abuse of both women and men who were kognitive blinded and suppressed by Keith' authority figure. KR is in my opinion a narcissistic, sadistic psychopath. I hope he will never get out of jail. That man is super dangerous.
I was raised Pentecostal. The terminology is slightly different, but the control, the manipulation…so much is the same. I ran so fast in my early 30s after 5 horrid years of trying to break free. I’m sick of Christendom getting a free past. I can’t see a difference in the abuse of power.
I could not disagree more. I was also raised Pentecostal. No one was ever keeping me from sleeping, or controlling my every move. I'm positive people get the message of Christ wrong all of the time and cause damage. I think it's a mistake however to compare an all Gracious and Loving Creator with a sex cult. I'm sorry you were hurt. But not every belief system is a cult.
I have learned that there can be huge differences between sects that are covered under any Christian "faith umbrella". I didn't grow up Pentecostal myself, but I went to a private school with a lot of students who did. Some of them were completely messed up by their insanely strict, overly controlling upbringing behind the brave, pius facade. (The boys and girls were messed up in very different ways.) Others grew up in warm, loving families and social environments very similar to my own. I think the authority figures in each congregation have a lot to do with that. You were, unfortunately, among the unlucky ones. I'm glad to found the courage to break free. That takes A LOT of courage!
@@debragale278 She didn't compare God with anything. She compared the extremely controlling and unhealthy upbringing and social environment in her Pentecostal sect with the extremely controlling and unhealthy social environment in NXIVM. You were lucky enough to grow up in a Pentecostal family and congregation that was very different from hers. That doesn't mean you can disagree with her personal experiences.
@@Kari.F. you clearly didn't read her comment correctly, because she said she believes every form of Christianity is wrong, which doesn't account for devotional differences and implies she doesn't understand distinguishing factors of a cult vs a religion.
Wonderful insight from A-a-ron... sorry I had to say it. We need more of these kinds of dialogues with rational people, who have insight into "these" kinds of groups. Thanks all!!
Aaron's comment on the lack of spirituality aspect of NVIXM's success is very interesting. I think this makes NVIXM more insidious because the setup has a wider entrance point than Scientology. A lot of areligious people would less likely be attracted by something that starts with "the church of", while NVIXM operated without the religion aspect, simply just a self-improvement thing, which means everyone was a potential target and one less mental barrier for people to fall victim to it
The amount of dedication needed to be a part of this! I wouldn’t have the motivation to ‘be a better person’ if it required me to starve myself and rarely sleep.
Like Kelly said, it is like the frog in the pot. Sleep and food deprivation come way later in the process after you have bought into a bunch of things already.
Hi Guys, Aaron and Andrew that was a really good interview with Kelly Thiel. Very informative about how vulnerable you are to outside influences. Thank you for sharing!
Great part 2 with A-ron (that’s stuck in my head now from watching his channel 😂) I’ll have to look up pictures of this little dude and Alison Mack. Thanks for another great interview Andrew. Kelly, you are a very interesting to listen to and I’ve been enthralled by your story. Would love to know what you ended up saying to the so called “friend” who tried to recruit you into DOS? 🤔
With that module about Luciferian people, I think it could have a number of purposes. 1. By lecturing about bad people, it presents the organisation as being ‘good’, giving the students a false sense of security of being on the righteous side; 2. It might help sift out people that are critical of Keith, thereby ensuring the people that progress/ stay on are loyal and can be trusted; 3. It is a narcissistic way by Keith to hint at what he is, while having the pleasure of deceiving all these people. Having completed the course, he might also have thought he could make an argument that people knowingly consented and were willing participants in what was going on.
Aaron,what level is miscavage on the bridge? You left us hanging on that one. I throughly enjoyed this 2 hour stream and yall asked insightful questions especially Aaron. I found it fascinating and informative. Good job kelly! Idk if she would count this as public speaking but you did great! You're very well spoken, charming, and short and concise.
The collateral reminds me of the book "Life and Death in Shang Hai" where people were forced to report on one another so that when one person was reported on in order to get out of the hot seat they would report on someone else...
Aaron, you said there was no such thing as belittling people in Scientology for "seeking comfort" as in NXIVM. From my SO time (1982), when you were being emotional, or sliding into victimhood, people would say "oh that's just H,E & R (human emotion and reaction), kind of an insult to remind you that you weren't being a thetan at cause.
What I said was that there is no specific language used in scn such as “you’re seeking comfort” or “you should seek discomfort”. We were comparing phrases that are identical in scientology and NXIVM. Those two phrases don’t exist in scientology. For sure there are scores and scores of belittling names and phrases in Scientology.
Really enjoyed this interview, even though I watched it backwards (here first then A a Ron's)...there are a lot of similarities between this lot and Scientology and with Aaron present he was pointing out similarities that we wouldn't recognise. Great stuff guys!
Thank you all for such a frank and interesting conversation. It is always a fascinating window into the human mind as to how people are seeking their own truth and unfortunately fall foul of predators. Best wishes to you all and anyone looking to escape these cults.
1 - NXIVM sounds like Scientology - Sounds like Keith really borrowed a lot from Scientology and tweaked it to make it more palatable. Keith seems like quite the manipulator
Wow, so fascinating. It sounds more like a concentration camp. Its like being in a bad relationship with someone you love, everyone on the outside can see how bad it is except you, who is love blind . Sorry i missed your live Andrew, visitors arrived. Thank you for great content as always 🤓👌❤
Re 28.30 to 32 approx I've come across material before suggesting that all psychopaths reveal themselves to you usually very early on, but we take it as an exaggeration or a joke. It's how they manage the disconnect between who they are and who they are presenting themselves to be
Hi Andrew, I LOVE your show.. Could you PLEASE turn on the SUBTITLES/ CC Option .. I and I am sure MANY other viewers would GREATLY appreciate it.. if unable to on the lives then at least for the RE-PLAYS... THANKS ANDREW 😘❤💋
Thanks so much Lori! Hmm I dno why they’re not automated…I just looked in settings and it doesn’t seem there’s anything I can do. Maybe it takes a while after a live for them to work? I’ve made a note to send TH-cam a message to ask tomorrow. Sorry about that!
Holy crap watch both seasons of the vow lol. It answers 90% plus of your questions. She was only in ESP 2 years & never lived in Albany & doesn't know the answer to most of your questions. That is not a shot at her btw.... those who spent limited time in Albany weren't exposed or aware of most things. She told you she is learning most things from the vow & what's she read ;o)
This is to Kelly, please read your book and release as audio. I don't read much anymore but I do find time to listen on my dog walks and housecleaning etc.
Great job everyone. All I knew about Nxivm before this was snippets from media reports. I think Kelly's selling herself short, she's just gorgeous. It's probably a good thing she was ambivalent about meeting this creep leader, as that may have lessened the pressure they put on her to join DOS.
As a tall young girl in high school, all the guys shorter than me gave me a bad time. I finally said, “what is your problem, jealousy”. Some actually said you are right. I know off the point, but some short men are very intimidated from my perspective.
I don’t feel sorry for Allison her idea was to brand people. She was as bad as the head guy. I stop feeling bad for anyone when they start harming others and breaking the law. What she did was awful and I get she was a true believer in it but she hurt others and broke the law. So I don’t feel bad for her.
Hello, Really enjoyed this collaboration. I have a question about Nexium. (Sorry for spelling) when someone leaves or left, did they target that person the way Scientology tries to destroy people who leave? Great info as always. Take care
I think NXIVM was big in Mexico. A lot of high profile people got involved. The son of an ex-president was like an investor and Keith’s right hand. They had conferences in large cities and companies forced employees to take the courses.
I just don’t get this. How one gets taken in like this. I’m so not the person to “ do what I’m told”. I’m definitely not meek in any way. I know how to be cordial and polite but never so agreeable. This just puzzles me…
Aaron I love your channel and commitment/bravery to exposing Scientology for the evil/exploitative organization it is. Thank you. I do really wish you would lay off the “short guy” jokes. You’re obviously laughing about a short guy complex here and frequently make fun of Miscavage for his short stature. I know you’re sort of just trolling him, but it only contributes to a social shaming of short men (which In turn contributes to the shame/insecurities those men have about their height, and contributes to their immoral actions). If a Napoleon complex is a real thing-which I believe it is-then we can help to heal that complex from society and the harm it causes by eliminating those jokes. That’s my take. Thanks again for your work!
2 - I think there are many similarities between NXIVM and Scientology and I also think Keith Raniere liberally borrowed from Scientology, amongst others, but I think that they are distinct entities much like there are different denominations within Christianity. Similar but different.
I think Ranieri borrowed some things from lots of different places, human potential movement, other cults including some spiritual ideas, psychology, etc. He even borrowed language (at least) from Scientology. I think he was a psychopath, probably very intelligent and able to read people. I think he picked women who were so enthralled with him to begin with, who believed he was an enlightened being, to run DOS, so that they believed they were doing it for good. Part of his schtick was to say that the worlds ideas about right and wrong are destructive constructs, in order to groom them all to be open to his behaviors. That's how and why Allison Mack was perfect. He's a master manipulator and reader of people's weaknesses.
All I could think about was, what if, Tom Cruise plays Keith Raniere in a movie🤣🤣🤣 After reading the title of the video😅… I feel that Alllison Mack is been blamed and targeted. Keith Raniere and Nancy Salzman are the real faces of NXVIM. I keep posting the facts, in comment sections where too many hate on Allison.
She’s way toooo biased favoring and sympathetic to Allison - Allison is a sick sadist and before she was on 500 calories she devised these rules with Keith and carried out cruel humiliation treatment.
Your comment about short people having inferiority complex was hilarious, I immediately thought of tiny dogs that bark like mad for anything that is bigger than themselves XD
Amazing stories, but one thing I cannot understand is why there’s so many people with such weak minds. You do a very good job, Andrew Gold. It is a pleasure to listen to your podcasts. Hope you get the same twenty million as ridiculous Meghan Markle. You deserve them, indeed. Congratulations, from South Africa.
I had an Ex that tried to force me to join some Forum courses. If I didn't agree with my partner he would use his "Men's Group" against Me. This person belonged to Private social circles that threw sex parties, and if I didn't agree to his poly-amoury I was told I wouldn't be able to find Housing or work through any of their "Life Coach" network...or sell juice cleanses with the other Wives. I walked away. I haven't ran across ANYONE in those circle in the Real World out there. No one I couldn't block on social media. Not one.
I don’t get it why someone will define you as good or bad? Are not we supposed to have some sort confidence in ourselves, personal beliefs despite all religions or cults? This is insane!!
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The line between victim and perpetrator isn't a fine line. There is overlap. In cults victims are groomed to be perpetrators. Without turning victims into perpetrators cults can't be sustained.
I would say it is the overlap that causes the fine or blurred line.
Hard to define where one ends and the other begins.
Yes that! I was really shocked/annoyed about that choice of words. If there was a „line“ Allison would be either perpetrator or victim. It is obvious she is both. And her being a victim doesn‘t make her acts of violence and sadism less cruel, even if groomed into it. The interview would have been very different if done by one of the women/survivors with branding…. There are people like mark Rinder, who also have been or are both, and like him see the harm they have done. even though mark has survived the violence and oppression and has been „groomed“ into Scientology, he is not shying away from the reality of the harm he dealt to people. I appreciate that.
@@GrowingUpInScientology It doesn’t matter to define a line blurred or not. Both victim and predator are the truth. There isn‘t a point where one begins and the other finishes because it is one person. She can be accountable for her wrongdoings and still be a Victim herself and need help!
There can be occasions where the predator/groomer is mostly a victim, in organised child abuse and life threatening abusive situation where the choice is my life or theirs. Still they will always know what they did and that it was wrong to the core, exactly because they are victims/survivors themselves. Otherwise they‘re psychopaths.
(Sorry english is not my first language! I hope my point is understandable)
100%
CIA doesn't create sociopaths, but they know how to recruit sociopaths and manipulate sociopaths
Great collaboration. I got sucked in to I tiny cult when I was 25 . I was only there for a few months before they kicked me out for shutting down and not sharing my thoughts and feelings. Even after such a short time, I was destroyed and felt suicidal. I’ve long healed from the experience. My heart goes out to all victims of cults.
I really believe the vast majority of cult leaders are sociopaths, at the least. It's good you got out, and survived the fallout. It's too easy to just conform, or give up. It takes real inner strength to survive.
Really glad you are still here.
As devastating as it was to be kicked out,shutting down was the key that set you free.
Helene, being "kicked out" is your salvation/answer. YOU knew it was wrong. Now go out knowing Helene.
Thank you for this fantastic collaboration and to Kelly and Aaron for being strong and courageous and speaking up.
Thanks !
@@AndrewGold1 what about Israel vs pilphinse please tell me I am asian old religion and culture belongs to me I am Indian
One of the things that I have learned in my life is rather disturbing. People cannot see what they don't want to see, And they imagine seeing whatever they want to see. Nobody can lie to you better than yourself.
The clinical term for that is "cognitive blindness".
@@ScreeFi440 thank you. Good to know that.
@@ScreeFi440 Nope it's cognitive dissonance ;o)
Cognitive dissonance ;o)
See Trump supporters
Thank you for this interview! NXIVM has a lot to teach former Scientologists and may even help current members wake up! I hope to see more interviews like this in the future. Consider having guests like Mark Vicente, who is working on a film about narcissism, or Sarah Edmondson.
I’ll reach out !
@LichenAndMoss it may show what happened to that cult, but bear in mind that I am using voice voice to text. Please take that into consideration because voice to text doesn’t always put things down the way I would like it to bear in mind that Scientology is far more insulated and runs like a mafia, in many aspects of how it functions you say it’s like a warning or a wake up call to them it won’t be they won’t see it that way because of the fact that they are a cult .
This is a fun team-up and a great interview. It's wonderful that there are people willing to share to their failings so that others are less likely to repeat them. God bless all three of you, and those soon to escape their abusive situations as well.
Aw thanks Jason
I'm glad Nancy Salzman was placed right under Keith and above Allison. Her part in NXIVM was larger than is being seen for the most part. She was with Keith from the beginning, but not subjected to the food/sleep deprivation or required to give any collateral. She also brought her daughter in who ended up at about the same level as Allison. Allison was definitely recruited/groomed in part because she was an actress in Hollywood at the time.
First of all thank you so much for your really fantastic conversation and I was almost alluding to Nexium when I was 16 years old it was the weirdest thing I was just packing to go on some seminars and when I was 14 I almost joined a group called the Moonies and something inside of me on both occasions told me that it really wasn’t something that I wanted to do and I I didn’t pursue it and I feel very privileged some high spirits something looking after me now that I’m following the case of these tragic people whose lives have been ruined I have to say that rather than searching externally for gratification,Now I have therapy and the therapy helps we connect that in a self that in the knowledge and I can’t believe how lucky I am I have a lot of issues but the therapy is helping and I’ve learnt the hard way that it’s always best to look inside rather than outside and you’ve helped me so much with your interviews thank you all for your contribution
Thank you !
I thought Allison was so good in her TV show. When I heard about this cult, I went UH OH, OH NO. Very Sad.
After listening to your whole blog and reading everybody’s comments I’m kind of shocked that I started primal therapy around 1972 in Boulder Colorado and our food intake & Sleep deprivation was severe. A cult? Problem is it was the best and the worst thing I ever did in my life. Our group fell apart after the partner that I was assigned to committed suicide. I warned them about him and I believe nothing much was done. It’s a memory of him that I will never forget. I developed the severe illness of endometriosis afterwards. This is the first time I thought this might’ve been a cult. Thank you so much for your blog.
If you are interested about primal therapy conducted by my “therapists” directed by the founding leader I’ll be glad to answer any questions.
As a victim of severe domestic violence that lasted for over 14 years ( i married at the tender age of just 16 years old ), this now i see with crystal clarity for what it was, ( i unfortunately was running away from trauma regarding childhood sex abuse & the aftermath of enduring a physical mental breakdown.
During my abusive marriage i like many other victims knew that to so much as verbally attempt to stand up for myself ensured a brutal physical onslaught.
So from that perspective i understand how coercive control & manipulation manifests itself.
However i could not ever perceive the heinous inhumane act of branding being normal.
Hope you’re at peace now 💜
@@rosebudame Hi, thank you so much for your kind words.
Thankfully i found escape from my psychopathic narcissist husband over 23 years ago ( although still i had to move 5 tines to finally find peace ), ...along the way i have aided 4 other women to escape their abusive partners.
I continue to advocate against domestic violence ( regardless of gender) & others like myself still share their own personal experiences with me via facebook & my twitter page.
Bless you for helping others through similar circumstances.
@@peterquincytaggart463 Your wonderful words i thank you for but advocating for & helping others who have suffered ( or indeed continue to be enduring ) is something i that i'll endeavour to do always.
As too both an intuitive empath & sensitive with added psychic gifts i'm able to pick up on who people are , ( while also feeling their moods ) which while watching this & other videos the overwhelming emotions if sadness, anger, pain trauma etc i have to ensure do mot engulf me.
@Dreambeliever1 I can relate I get overwhelmed from what I call vibes from things/people on these types of videos and such. I still wish I could take their pain and abuses away so they never went through this at all.
Wow. I watched both part one and two of this and found it an incredible discussion. Absolutely riveting actually. The whole idea of mind control and how far one will go is pretty mind blowing. I'm glad that
Kelly was able to see her way out of this cult. I think her own sense of self is what saved her. It's wonderful she is speaking out ! A great interaction between the three of you. Thanks so much !
This interview and all these discussions regarding cults reminds me of the saying “hurt people hurt people”. Instead of a person working on themself to be the change they wish to see, they look outside themself and to manipulate their environment. Instead of doing the shadow work, they choose to ignore or feed the chaos that festers inside them which leads to greater destruction of the individual and those around them. A broken individual cannot lead by example. Instead, they’ll use force and coercion of others to bring their ideals to fruition.
Great interview! She has been through a lot. I hope she will return to full physical and mental health.
The most concerning thing with the NXIVM here in the UK at the time they had a school in Kensington Andrew . it was called the Rainbow Cultural Garden . I raised it with OFSTED and NSPCC and not one reply at the time .
44:35 exactly… his opening line to all the women he brings in to do his bidding is “are you a hugger?” He wants to see how easy she is to control and this woman wasn’t easy enough nor impressed with him enough
I agree. Also replying to you since right around this same timestamp they also talk about the volleyball. Which I never heard about before this. WTF is that?
The other funny thing is, I happen to HATE volleyball. So I would have been safe from this cult -- would've Noped out as soon as they wanted me to play volleyball. 😂
@@JW-vd4il almost every night they would play volleyball into the wee hours of 3 or 4 am. If you wanted to prove your dedication and fortitude you would go and stay the whole time. Keith loved volleyball. Usually it’s men playing and women just sitting in the bleachers. If you wanted a chance to say something to him personally, you will wait for a short lull and approach him, if someone else hasn’t grabbed him first. This was also a way to push sleep deprivation on his people. All his “staff” have been up since Atleast 7am and attending the game keeps you up to 3 or 4… knowing that you have to be ready to go again at 7am. He told all of them that he is so enlightened he doesn’t need sleep so they wanted to show they could keep up with him but the truth was he was a night owl and slept all day!
Lol no that was just how he said goodbye to Alison Mac first time they met at volleyball ;o)
@@JW-vd4il Not everyone got invited to play volleyball it was 'an honor' lol... and was in the middle of the night
@J W My ex-husband loved volleyball, and he'd demand that we play together (even though I hated volleyball and really sucked at it). I'd have big red welts on my forearms, and he'd just call me a "pus*y" and tell me to suck it up. This was when we were dating (around 18 YO), and I didn't have the balls to stand up to him and leave until many years later. I've never played volleyball since 😆😆.
"I would never join a group that would have me as a member," Oscar Wilde had it right!
I thought it was Groucho Marx
@@AndrewGold1 Yes, Groucho, (this is what happens when you get old, the mind gets scrambled because there is just too much in there, lmao.) :)
'Handlers', is that a tip off? Everyone tattles on one another, tip off? Hold these and confess your wrong-doings, tip off? Give us ALL of your money, tip off? Recruit others, tip off? Buy another booklet, tip off?
@@jaslady22 If there happened to be a curious prevalent odor of sulfur and/or brimstone, like with W. Strieber and his alien encounter in "Communion"; then that might have been rather a large tip-off, as well.
I say "might"; because even that didn't appear to be enough of an off-putting tip-off, let alone red flag, for M. Strieber -- not even after he came down with an apparently terminal case of Stockholm Syndrome after not quite a little bit.
Not to knock the horrific internal human struggle inherently endemic to the process of incoming alien spiritual temptation, mind you [and it can be absolutely unearthly terrifying unto overall thanatophobic paralysis, unless mitigated by the authoritative power of someone essentially stronger than the alien spirit to begin with], mind you:
It's simply to be able -- by the mercy of Divine Providence -- to recognize the tell-tale signs of alien spiritual bellicosity, and thus to not will to have spiritual congress with these Invisible Psychic Robbers ever again.
"Run away! Run away!"
Curiously enough, that is probably generally sound advice for any noetic warrior still occupying rank in the novitiate; as it were.
It's only the seasoned fighters who have any sort of valuable experience in dealing with such things.
Once I matriculate from Preschool, I probably will begin to learn some more about my own personal educational path, if you will...
😊😊😊
Groucho said it
The things that stuck out to me through watching documentary and other interviews with members was that Keith made every member kiss him on the lips (yuck)! They would receive text messages 24/7 with demands of what to do eg get up at 3am and run this far etc… there was one member who was locked in a room for several months and no one was to have contact with her (imprisoned) and in one of the courses they had their partner sleep on the floor.
When I watched Tom jump up and down on the sofa because of his love for Katie Holmes, that's when I started to dislike Hollywood. Why am I looking at these people!
Andrew I'm initiating myself into your cult of exposing cults. Love your work and find your views to be very interesting. Keep up the good work x
Thank you Tom !!
You are now initiated, now when is a good time to start the branding process?
I really enjoy yall teaming up on these interviews!
Thanks Susan !
Andrew Gold is literally the media saying "Tom Cruise the scientologist, Tom Cruise the scientologist" that Aaron is talking about within the first two minutes of the video.
Very scary. I’m glad people are talking about this now, so others will be aware. Thank you. 🦋
Yes, in the sense that narcissists often use other narcissists as their lieutenants. Miscavige, Cruise, Raniere and Mack are all narcissists. They all use/used each other for their own ends.
True, as with the Nazi Party there is a sadomasochistic element to this. Those who like to abuse and dominate also like being abused and dominated. It's a codependent relationship, both feed off of each other.
Gangs, cults, abusive relationships, its all the same to the core.
Thanks to all three of you! Watched both videos. Great conversations! "NXIVM/Keith" tactics are all about CONTROL!!
Fascinating interview. I think one of the big mistakes DOS made was in recruiting so many women so quickly, particularly those who were married or in serious relationships.
I hear DOS and think of computers from the 80's.
And also Kelly I agree with you about Alison if you look at the videos of the first meeting with Keith it was obvious that she was pray he knew what he was doing he was manipulating her and she was just seeking and seeking and seeking and vulnerable and you can see how he just lures her in she was very childlike and I do feel that she is a victim and I do agree that on 500 cal a day that doesn’t make you a perpetrator that makes you having serious mental health issues and dependency issues and it takes a vulnerable woman to understand this
In The Vow season 1 Keith had som crazy homemade psychological theories about developmental psychology which is utter BS. Little boys are traumatized for not getting love from their mother while little girls didn't have real traumas because they just had to be princesses! Something like that. I'm convinced his teaching was a mirror of his own developmental issues which he was fixated in and they were projected and tried internalized in to every body else and therefore he would not have to deal with his own issues. I's called projective identification, but it doesn't really work that good, so the person would use this strategy over and over again. That lead to equal crazy theories about the roles and relationships between men and women, fx the Standford Prison experiment. What was he thinking!! So much abuse of both women and men who were kognitive blinded and suppressed by Keith' authority figure. KR is in my opinion a narcissistic, sadistic psychopath. I hope he will never get out of jail. That man is super dangerous.
I was raised Pentecostal. The terminology is slightly different, but the control, the manipulation…so much is the same. I ran so fast in my early 30s after 5 horrid years of trying to break free. I’m sick of Christendom getting a free past. I can’t see a difference in the abuse of power.
I could not disagree more.
I was also raised Pentecostal. No one was ever keeping me from sleeping, or controlling my every move.
I'm positive people get the message of Christ wrong all of the time and cause damage. I think it's a mistake however to compare an all Gracious and Loving Creator with a sex cult.
I'm sorry you were hurt. But not every belief system is a cult.
I have learned that there can be huge differences between sects that are covered under any Christian "faith umbrella". I didn't grow up Pentecostal myself, but I went to a private school with a lot of students who did. Some of them were completely messed up by their insanely strict, overly controlling upbringing behind the brave, pius facade. (The boys and girls were messed up in very different ways.) Others grew up in warm, loving families and social environments very similar to my own. I think the authority figures in each congregation have a lot to do with that. You were, unfortunately, among the unlucky ones. I'm glad to found the courage to break free. That takes A LOT of courage!
@@debragale278 She didn't compare God with anything. She compared the extremely controlling and unhealthy upbringing and social environment in her Pentecostal sect with the extremely controlling and unhealthy social environment in NXIVM. You were lucky enough to grow up in a Pentecostal family and congregation that was very different from hers. That doesn't mean you can disagree with her personal experiences.
The problem is not God or spiritually but how they become weaponised by insecure and controlling teacher.
@@Kari.F. you clearly didn't read her comment correctly, because she said she believes every form of Christianity is wrong, which doesn't account for devotional differences and implies she doesn't understand distinguishing factors of a cult vs a religion.
Wonderful insight from A-a-ron... sorry I had to say it. We need more of these kinds of dialogues with rational people, who have insight into "these" kinds of groups. Thanks all!!
I think Aaron's following is larger than Scientology - I hear they're down to 20 000. I follow both of you guys, and also a few others. Go Aaron!!
yessss!
Aaron's comment on the lack of spirituality aspect of NVIXM's success is very interesting. I think this makes NVIXM more insidious because the setup has a wider entrance point than Scientology. A lot of areligious people would less likely be attracted by something that starts with "the church of", while NVIXM operated without the religion aspect, simply just a self-improvement thing, which means everyone was a potential target and one less mental barrier for people to fall victim to it
I feel sorry for those that got involved with these monsters and how many lives they destroyed
Charles Manson loved/hated celebrity. Our world worships celebrities. Their influence is all about marketing. It's crazy.
I won't lie.. it's difficult to feel sorry for Allison.
I agree. Sometimes I think pretty young women get more sympathy. Allison seemed to enjoy her power to abuse.
Together … the combined discussions on both your channels where very revealing and informative 💫
The amount of dedication needed to be a part of this! I wouldn’t have the motivation to ‘be a better person’ if it required me to starve myself and rarely sleep.
Like Kelly said, it is like the frog in the pot. Sleep and food deprivation come way later in the process after you have bought into a bunch of things already.
Would love to see the paperwork from these cults.. as in their courses and modules..
Would be really interesting read or a video to watch..
Hi Guys, Aaron and Andrew that was a really good interview with Kelly Thiel. Very informative about how vulnerable you are to outside influences. Thank you for sharing!
Thank you Lea !
47:55 ong same - when I was in a cult too long my body reacted. I developed an autoimmune disorder as well as depression
Great part 2 with A-ron (that’s stuck in my head now from watching his channel 😂) I’ll have to look up pictures of this little dude and Alison Mack. Thanks for another great interview Andrew. Kelly, you are a very interesting to listen to and I’ve been enthralled by your story. Would love to know what you ended up saying to the so called “friend” who tried to recruit you into DOS? 🤔
Bless you, Kelly. Congratulations on your bravery. I hope you use this horrible experience to know how great your real life can be.
With that module about Luciferian people, I think it could have a number of purposes. 1. By lecturing about bad people, it presents the organisation as being ‘good’, giving the students a false sense of security of being on the righteous side; 2. It might help sift out people that are critical of Keith, thereby ensuring the people that progress/ stay on are loyal and can be trusted; 3. It is a narcissistic way by Keith to hint at what he is, while having the pleasure of deceiving all these people. Having completed the course, he might also have thought he could make an argument that people knowingly consented and were willing participants in what was going on.
Great interview! Discovered you though Aaron’s channel. I really enjoy your Duo podcasts. Keep them coming!
Thank you Susan ! Great to have you here :)
Great discussion! So much here- may it be continued.
Aaron,what level is miscavage on the bridge? You left us hanging on that one. I throughly enjoyed this 2 hour stream and yall asked insightful questions especially Aaron. I found it fascinating and informative. Good job kelly! Idk if she would count this as public speaking but you did great! You're very well spoken, charming, and short and concise.
Aaron has really thoughtful answers. Good convo
The need for approval and fitting in with community is a powerful path to control or being controlled.
The collateral reminds me of the book "Life and Death in Shang Hai" where people were forced to report on one another so that when one person was reported on in order to get out of the hot seat they would report on someone else...
Aaron, you said there was no such thing as belittling people in Scientology for "seeking comfort" as in NXIVM. From my SO time (1982), when you were being emotional, or sliding into victimhood, people would say "oh that's just H,E & R (human emotion and reaction), kind of an insult to remind you that you weren't being a thetan at cause.
What I said was that there is no specific language used in scn such as “you’re seeking comfort” or “you should seek discomfort”.
We were comparing phrases that are identical in scientology and NXIVM. Those two phrases don’t exist in scientology.
For sure there are scores and scores of belittling names and phrases in Scientology.
That black turtleneck getting lots of screen time..the Tom Cruise jokes practically write themselves 😂
I’m loving it haha
What a beautiful, sane woman. I wonder if she feels like she's actually come out of this a better person.
Really enjoyed this interview, even though I watched it backwards (here first then A a Ron's)...there are a lot of similarities between this lot and Scientology and with Aaron present he was pointing out similarities that we wouldn't recognise. Great stuff guys!
Aaron laughing at the short conversation had me crying
Thank you all for such a frank and interesting conversation. It is always a fascinating window into the human mind as to how people are seeking their own truth and unfortunately fall foul of predators. Best wishes to you all and anyone looking to escape these cults.
Comments during the interview related to Keith creating a female army reminded me of the James Bond film "On Her Majesty's Secret Service".
@Abe Froman 😆
1 - NXIVM sounds like Scientology - Sounds like Keith really borrowed a lot from Scientology and tweaked it to make it more palatable. Keith seems like quite the manipulator
Wow, so fascinating. It sounds more like a concentration camp. Its like being in a bad relationship with someone you love, everyone on the outside can see how bad it is except you, who is love blind . Sorry i missed your live Andrew, visitors arrived. Thank you for great content as always 🤓👌❤
Andrew,I’m 5”2 & have no problem with tall people,I “borrow”them from their partners in supermarkets all the time!
1. They love their acronyms
Fantastic chat between the three of you. Loved all the insights.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Re 28.30 to 32 approx I've come across material before suggesting that all psychopaths reveal themselves to you usually very early on, but we take it as an exaggeration or a joke. It's how they manage the disconnect between who they are and who they are presenting themselves to be
Hi Andrew, I LOVE your show.. Could you PLEASE turn on the SUBTITLES/ CC Option .. I and I am sure MANY other viewers would GREATLY appreciate it.. if unable to on the lives then at least for the RE-PLAYS... THANKS ANDREW 😘❤💋
Thanks so much Lori! Hmm I dno why they’re not automated…I just looked in settings and it doesn’t seem there’s anything I can do. Maybe it takes a while after a live for them to work? I’ve made a note to send TH-cam a message to ask tomorrow. Sorry about that!
@@AndrewGold1 Your AWSOME ... Thank you Andrew, I greatly appreaciate that
Excellent interview very informative. Thank you to Ms. Thiel for sharing her experience it was a fascinating listen
Thanks Sindy!
Big difference from Tom Cruise ~ as wicked as Allison Mack's behaviour was in DOS she provided evidence to bring down the cult
Holy crap watch both seasons of the vow lol. It answers 90% plus of your questions. She was only in ESP 2 years & never lived in Albany & doesn't know the answer to most of your questions. That is not a shot at her btw.... those who spent limited time in Albany weren't exposed or aware of most things. She told you she is learning most things from the vow & what's she read ;o)
This is to Kelly, please read your book and release as audio. I don't read much anymore but I do find time to listen on my dog walks and housecleaning etc.
Great job everyone. All I knew about Nxivm before this was snippets from media reports. I think Kelly's selling herself short, she's just gorgeous. It's probably a good thing she was ambivalent about meeting this creep leader, as that may have lessened the pressure they put on her to join DOS.
As a tall young girl in high school, all the guys shorter than me gave me a bad time. I finally said, “what is your problem, jealousy”. Some actually said you are right. I know off the point, but some short men are very intimidated from my perspective.
I don’t feel sorry for Allison her idea was to brand people. She was as bad as the head guy. I stop feeling bad for anyone when they start harming others and breaking the law. What she did was awful and I get she was a true believer in it but she hurt others and broke the law. So I don’t feel bad for her.
Aaron's face at 48:46... 😂🤣. Dude, watch The Vow and make that face every episode!!!!
I was gonna say “For free???”
Wow this conversation is riveting!
Hello,
Really enjoyed this collaboration. I have a question about Nexium. (Sorry for spelling) when someone leaves or left, did they target that person the way Scientology tries to destroy people who leave?
Great info as always.
Take care
Great question!
Asking for false charges on molestation is particularly heinous. Jeebus.
Kelly Thiel could be Sharon Stone's younger sibling ...
I think NXIVM was big in Mexico. A lot of high profile people got involved. The son of an ex-president was like an investor and Keith’s right hand. They had conferences in large cities and companies forced employees to take the courses.
I just don’t get this. How one gets taken in like this. I’m so not the person to “ do what I’m told”. I’m definitely not meek in any way. I know how to be cordial and polite but never so agreeable. This just puzzles me…
Aaron I love your channel and commitment/bravery to exposing Scientology for the evil/exploitative organization it is. Thank you. I do really wish you would lay off the “short guy” jokes. You’re obviously laughing about a short guy complex here and frequently make fun of Miscavage for his short stature. I know you’re sort of just trolling him, but it only contributes to a social shaming of short men (which In turn contributes to the shame/insecurities those men have about their height, and contributes to their immoral actions). If a Napoleon complex is a real thing-which I believe it is-then we can help to heal that complex from society and the harm it causes by eliminating those jokes. That’s my take. Thanks again for your work!
Famous people also give both Scientology and NXVIM legitimacy.
This is so great, you are a genius -like,this is so good and groundbreaking..wow.
2 - I think there are many similarities between NXIVM and Scientology and I also think Keith Raniere liberally borrowed from Scientology, amongst others, but I think that they are distinct entities much like there are different denominations within Christianity. Similar but different.
As of 8/1/2023 Allison Mack seen without ankle monitor after early release.
Old lady here really need those captions please.. ty? I’m not watching live and was hoping that would be added…
Is there not auto captions? I know they’re not perfect usually…but I’d have to pay someone a fortune to do the captions !
I think Ranieri borrowed some things from lots of different places, human potential movement, other cults including some spiritual ideas, psychology, etc. He even borrowed language (at least) from Scientology. I think he was a psychopath, probably very intelligent and able to read people. I think he picked women who were so enthralled with him to begin with, who believed he was an enlightened being, to run DOS, so that they believed they were doing it for good. Part of his schtick was to say that the worlds ideas about right and wrong are destructive constructs, in order to groom them all to be open to his behaviors. That's how and why Allison Mack was perfect. He's a master manipulator and reader of people's weaknesses.
All I could think about was, what if, Tom Cruise plays Keith Raniere in a movie🤣🤣🤣 After reading the title of the video😅…
I feel that Alllison Mack is been blamed and targeted.
Keith Raniere and Nancy Salzman are the real faces of NXVIM. I keep posting the facts, in comment sections where too many hate on Allison.
She’s way toooo biased favoring and sympathetic to Allison - Allison is a sick sadist and before she was on 500 calories she devised these rules with Keith and carried out cruel humiliation treatment.
Warm greetings from South-Africa Andrew and guests. Awesome invo.... 😎
Love your country ! Did a rugby tour there when I was 14. Amazing !
Your comment about short people having inferiority complex was hilarious, I immediately thought of tiny dogs that bark like mad for anything that is bigger than themselves XD
I was big fan of hers in smallville and only watched the show for her so im a little sad at whats happened
Allison Mack is out of prison. Nancy Salzman is still in prison, not on probation. ESP was Keith’s company before NXIVM. There were 150 women in DOS
Amazing stories, but one thing I cannot understand is why there’s so many people with such weak minds. You do a very good job, Andrew Gold. It is a pleasure to listen to your podcasts. Hope you get the same twenty million as ridiculous Meghan Markle. You deserve them, indeed. Congratulations, from South Africa.
Andrew, would you please interview Rick Alan Ross ? He is a specialist of cults and wrote breaking articles in 2003 on NXIVM.
I had an Ex that tried to force me to join some Forum courses. If I didn't agree with my partner he would use his "Men's Group" against Me. This person belonged to Private social circles that threw sex parties, and if I didn't agree to his poly-amoury I was told I wouldn't be able to find Housing or work through any of their "Life Coach" network...or sell juice cleanses with the other Wives. I walked away. I haven't ran across ANYONE in those circle in the Real World out there. No one I couldn't block on social media. Not one.
Great interviews! For me personally these are both hard could cults! They piss me off and make my sad.
Ah, another enlightening interview. Thanks, Andrew.
I enjoy both you and Aaron.
Wow A-aron what an comfortable subject matter.
I don’t get it why someone will define you as good or bad? Are not we supposed to have some sort confidence in ourselves, personal beliefs despite all religions or cults? This is insane!!
Thanks for the Seinfeld reference, Aaron.