I just discovered D. Benatar today. I don't know how I have lived my life without him. He is amazing. Thank you for sharing this video :) I am vegan, anti-natalist, pro-choice, pro-euthanasia, and atheist.
vegan atheist and more I just recently heard about anti natalism, trying to figure out my position on it. I was a bit surprised to learn that it includes non-human animals in the wild. I’ve been vegan for 15 years, atheist and had a vasectomy a few years ago and I’ve since i was young felt that bringing a child into this world is wrong on so many levels. How do you respond to that humans are the really ones causing the true harm and suffering on the planet? While suffering is found in nature, I’ve hard time filing it under evil.
David Gardell I think that efilism is more in alignment with the inclusion of all sentient life not just human, but I could be mistaken. Up to recently I was only focusing on human suffering and how it would be best if we didn't exist because of all the harm we cause ourselves, each other, the animals and the planet. But listening to inmendham, I realize that it would be best if ALL life ended since it is all exposed to great suffering and pain. The animals have no way of consciously ending their missery but we could do it for them. I don't know if this answers your question :)
vegan atheist and more Thanks for your input! 👍 And that is awesome you’ve opened your eyes for the non human animals and the endless torture and suffering we are putting them through!
The man is introduced as a professor of philosophy and head of a department and still one of the first questions he gets is whether he means it or not... Just goes to show how deep pro natalism bias runs.
I thank God that I came across Benatar and the concept of antinatalism. I got copies of Benatar's books and have listened to his interviews. I'm relieved to have found a word to describe (and a philosophical foundation for) the vague misgivings I've felt recently - within the last fifty years or so - about the "Human Predicament". I'm relieved to be less alone in this than I thought I was. I came across Benatar and antinatalism by chance on TH-cam - an example of God moving in a mysterious way.
L. W no YOU have misunderstood the whole reason behind this concept. You are part of the ignorant masses that has not one clue of the MASSIVE SCALE of human suffering. You take him for an atheist but In fact he is painfully aware of the human condition and has a heart for their suffering. And since HUMANS are too stoopid to change this (cuz it’s only children and animals that suffer the most, the ones who have NO VOICE) these atrocities live on and on. Benatar has probably seen this darkness and found himself powerless against it so this position of antinatalism is born. It is literally the ONLY thing we can do to STOP sending the innocents TO SLAUGHTER.
It stands to reason a philosopher should be rational: it's the name of the game after all. He is very precise in his answers and clearly differentiates between concepts and problems, applies nuances where appropriate and generally supports what he says very well. Which is a sure sign of a man who has thought things through. I've read his book and in my opinion his main argument is entirely sound.
Anyone who doesn’t see the wisdom of his position doesn’t have a single clue of how bad the human situation really is. The children and animals are the most vulnerable among us. People walk around in perpetual ignorant bliss having no more of a clue of their own pending slaughter than the livestock we raise have an idea of their slaughter. We are a human ant farm and are regularly harvested under the noses of the ignorant masses. If they don’t carry on in their bliss then the whole system would collapse. Humans are ignorant self serving worms. And those that ARE NOT, don’t make up sufficient numbers to make the critical mass for change. We seem to enjoy our wars, our animal slaughter houses, our pedophiles and our human trafficking etc.......... even though many are aware, nothing is done. Those that DO stand to change this on any scale are themselves slaughtered.
My only complaint is that the interview isn't longer! This type of discussion very much interests me. Well done for getting him on, very good interview, and an amazing idea to have a radio show about vegan philosophy :)
+Think Vegan Really glad you enjoyed it. If you're interested in over-population then you may enjoy our interview with Paul Ehrlich that we recently published.
Benatar seems to be the god for all the potential unborn babies coz his philosophy prevents them to come into existence and keep suffering until death.
Don't call veganism a religion. Religions are bullshit, worthless, unnecessary. Be vegan because the torture of animals in this case outweighs the trivial hardship to the human of going vegan.
Suicide is a very small part of the equation but you could use that to further argue why antinatalism is a good thing. If a suicidal person never existed they would never have to find themselves in a predicament where they are contemplating how to end their life successfully (often through violent means)
Antinatalism comes from pessimism Pessimism doesnt see suicide as a bad thing Honestly , this suicide question reminds me of some Villains in stories The Villain have a compelling argument but he kill enough people to make him a bad guy . But does that make his argument wrong ? Same goes for this people ask suicide question to beat ANs in argument , so that they can convince them selves that ANs are wrong . Honestly I think it doesnt really matter , you were pushed into the life without asking you , so why shouldnt you have the right to leave the life when ever you need .
Why does he have an interest in continuing to exist if it's just a product of an "optimism bias"? Maybe life is worth living after all...and by extension, worth starting.
I believe what he means is that there's no need to take your own life unless things get to be so bad for you that it's the best option, as it's not a decision to make lightly. Often times your decisions affect others, so you should consider the possible outcomes and whether it'd be truly worth it for yourself. If one already exists, they might as well try to make the best of their life. As far as life being worth starting, you have to consider the fact that nonexistent people will quite likely have bad experiences in life if brought into existence, having to face the very apparent ugliness that exists in this world, and will eventually have to die, by their own choice or not. Nonexistent people are inherently unaware of any aspects of life, good or bad. So why bring them into existence when there are so many negative aspects and so much suffering already in the world? We don't need to force new people to deal with any of it. People don't need to continue existing as a species - Earth would be better off without us spoiling it.
Read the book. The issue is not whether life is worth living for those already alive, that varies depending on the state a person is in and there is a powerful natural impetus to survival and well-being, precisely bc we are such fragile creatures and suffering is our positive state. Well-being is based on the continual staving off of suffering (thirst, hunger, illness, cold , heat, etc etc). The issue is that coming into existence always causes great harm and not doing so doesn't. "'I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience." Mark Twain
"Maybe life is worth living after all...and by extension, worth starting." He specifically said that humans don't always have the "luck" of being under the optimism bias. Only around 80%. So what you're saying is it's worth starting and fuck those 20%.
Because evidently his life isn't so bad that it warrants suicide. The problem is that even if we reject the thesis that it's always bad to be born there remains the very real fact that there are a great many lives that are definitely not worth living (for one because the individual herself chose to end it). Since we cannot predict how the life of our offspring is going to evolve and there's a very real risk it's going to be highly miserable and painful it's irresponsible to gamble with other people's future. The quality threshold for a life worth starting is much higher than for one worth continuing as in the latter case having to do yourself in requires much effort, planning and courage. If you'd bothered to read the book you'd know this instead of asking a question dr. Benatar has answered already. Instead of looking for the obiter dicta you should have looked for the rationes decidendi.
Obiter Dicta worth living doesn’t mean worth starting. The life of a child with Down syndrome is probably worth continuing but it’s not worth starting. Why inflict so much pain even if it IS bearable eventually. Would you like it if I placed you 1000000 dollars in debt (Down syndrome) just because you CAN pay it off if you work hard enough?
it’s not necessary to eat meat for a lot of people in this day and age, it’s also a choice that you make, there is a lot of plant based foods that nourish and keep you alive
We need food but humans aren't carnivores, we don't even seem to be omnivores when you look at how our body has evolved and all the damage meat does to our health-cancer, heart disease, stroke, wasting disease, BSE, arthritis, osteoporosis...
@@lakehuron7733 Humans are omnivores and closer to obligate carnivores than anything else. Meat isn't linked to any of these diseases at all lmao. You are spreading pure unscientific ridiculous propaganda just to get people to avoid meat. Pathetic. You literally just lied through your teeth like most of you st*pid vegans are known for doing. Risk of these diseases like osteoporosis or athrithis are actually elevated by avoiding animal products. The fact there are people on the carnivore diet who reversed these diseases proves you are utterly wrong and have no clue what you are talking about. What a 🤡
@@user-zr4ci7oc9t Sure you can survive and thrive on a lot of plant foods for a considerable time while alive but eventually, the negative effects and results of a lack of animal products would take a toll on your body. Not everyone can afford to avoid meat and it is necessary to eat it since it's nutritional value is too high that the risks of avoiding it far outweighs any so called possible benefits.
![บังเอิญมันได้อ่ะ - แอน อรดี [OFFICIAL MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9fwjammKY4A/mqdefault.jpg)
I just discovered D. Benatar today. I don't know how I have lived my life without him. He is amazing. Thank you for sharing this video :) I am vegan, anti-natalist, pro-choice, pro-euthanasia, and atheist.
vegan atheist and more
I just recently heard about anti natalism, trying to figure out my position on it. I was a bit surprised to learn that it includes non-human animals in the wild. I’ve been vegan for 15 years, atheist and had a vasectomy a few years ago and I’ve since i was young felt that bringing a child into this world is wrong on so many levels.
How do you respond to that humans are the really ones causing the true harm and suffering on the planet? While suffering is found in nature, I’ve hard time filing it under evil.
David Gardell I think that efilism is more in alignment with the inclusion of all sentient life not just human, but I could be mistaken. Up to recently I was only focusing on human suffering and how it would be best if we didn't exist because of all the harm we cause ourselves, each other, the animals and the planet. But listening to inmendham, I realize that it would be best if ALL life ended since it is all exposed to great suffering and pain. The animals have no way of consciously ending their missery but we could do it for them. I don't know if this answers your question :)
vegan atheist and more
Thanks for your input! 👍
And that is awesome you’ve opened your eyes for the non human animals and the endless torture and suffering we are putting them through!
David Gardell you are very welcome. thank you for being so awesome :D
+vegan atheist and more Well said, vegan atheist and more and Dick!
The man is introduced as a professor of philosophy and head of a department and still one of the first questions he gets is whether he means it or not... Just goes to show how deep pro natalism bias runs.
Yeah its deeply sad
I’m an anti natalist but found that hilarious
I thank God that I came across Benatar and the concept of antinatalism. I got copies of Benatar's books and have listened to his interviews. I'm relieved to have found a word to describe (and a philosophical foundation for) the vague misgivings I've felt recently - within the last fifty years or so - about the "Human Predicament". I'm relieved to be less alone in this than I thought I was.
I came across Benatar and antinatalism by chance on TH-cam - an example of God moving in a mysterious way.
L. W no YOU have misunderstood the whole reason behind this concept. You are part of the ignorant masses that has not one clue of the MASSIVE SCALE of human suffering. You take him for an atheist but In fact he is painfully aware of the human condition and has a heart for their suffering. And since HUMANS are too stoopid to change this (cuz it’s only children and animals that suffer the most, the ones who have NO VOICE) these atrocities live on and on. Benatar has probably seen this darkness and found himself powerless against it so this position of antinatalism is born. It is literally the ONLY thing we can do to STOP sending the innocents TO SLAUGHTER.
D. Benatar sounds like an exceedingly rational gentleman.
It stands to reason a philosopher should be rational: it's the name of the game after all. He is very precise in his answers and clearly differentiates between concepts and problems, applies nuances where appropriate and generally supports what he says very well. Which is a sure sign of a man who has thought things through. I've read his book and in my opinion his main argument is entirely sound.
Linus Verclyte Indeed.
I have yet to complete Better Never to Have Been, but I suspect that I will likewise find his primary argument to be sound.
Julio Cabrera Argentinian philosopher
Anyone who doesn’t see the wisdom of his position doesn’t have a single clue of how bad the human situation really is. The children and animals are the most vulnerable among us. People walk around in perpetual ignorant bliss having no more of a clue of their own pending slaughter than the livestock we raise have an idea of their slaughter. We are a human ant farm and are regularly harvested under the noses of the ignorant masses. If they don’t carry on in their bliss then the whole system would collapse. Humans are ignorant self serving worms. And those that ARE NOT, don’t make up sufficient numbers to make the critical mass for change. We seem to enjoy our wars, our animal slaughter houses, our pedophiles and our human trafficking etc.......... even though many are aware, nothing is done. Those that DO stand to change this on any scale are themselves slaughtered.
My only complaint is that the interview isn't longer! This type of discussion very much interests me. Well done for getting him on, very good interview, and an amazing idea to have a radio show about vegan philosophy :)
+Think Vegan Really glad you enjoyed it. If you're interested in over-population then you may enjoy our interview with Paul Ehrlich that we recently published.
She is opposed to Benatar's core philosophy of antinatalism. She also favours IQ based eugenics and believes in Racially based IQ selected breeding.
AntiNatalist प्रजननविरोधी Now, yes that is the case.
Never thought of finding Tara McCarthy around here!
If I were religious I would have made a shrine of Benatar and worshiped him :D
Benatar seems to be the god for all the potential unborn babies coz his philosophy prevents them to come into existence and keep suffering until death.
Man that music is loud at 8:48 the talking is very quiet so I had to turn the volume up. Don't put loud music in this.
Anti Natalism is the ultimate truth that Humans deny!!
Veganism is the true religion!!
Hats Off to Mr Benatar!
Don't call veganism a religion. Religions are bullshit, worthless, unnecessary.
Be vegan because the torture of animals in this case outweighs the trivial hardship to the human of going vegan.
This argument requires putting all of your faith in the human intellect as the ultimate arbiter of truth
Asking about suicide is just not relevant when talking about antinatalism and why the f#ck do people not understand this?
Suicide is a very small part of the equation but you could use that to further argue why antinatalism is a good thing. If a suicidal person never existed they would never have to find themselves in a predicament where they are contemplating how to end their life successfully (often through violent means)
Antinatalism comes from pessimism
Pessimism doesnt see suicide as a bad thing
Honestly , this suicide question reminds me of some Villains in stories
The Villain have a compelling argument but he kill enough people to make him a bad guy . But does that make his argument wrong ?
Same goes for this people ask suicide question to beat ANs in argument , so that they can convince them selves that ANs are wrong .
Honestly I think it doesnt really matter , you were pushed into the life without asking you , so why shouldnt you have the right to leave the life when ever you need .
How many of you would accept to live all human life?
suffering is needed to come to his conclusion.
Why does he have an interest in continuing to exist if it's just a product of an "optimism bias"?
Maybe life is worth living after all...and by extension, worth starting.
I believe what he means is that there's no need to take your own life unless things get to be so bad for you that it's the best option, as it's not a decision to make lightly. Often times your decisions affect others, so you should consider the possible outcomes and whether it'd be truly worth it for yourself. If one already exists, they might as well try to make the best of their life.
As far as life being worth starting, you have to consider the fact that nonexistent people will quite likely have bad experiences in life if brought into existence, having to face the very apparent ugliness that exists in this world, and will eventually have to die, by their own choice or not. Nonexistent people are inherently unaware of any aspects of life, good or bad. So why bring them into existence when there are so many negative aspects and so much suffering already in the world? We don't need to force new people to deal with any of it. People don't need to continue existing as a species - Earth would be better off without us spoiling it.
Read the book. The issue is not whether life is worth living for those already alive, that varies depending on the state a person is in and there is a powerful natural impetus to survival and well-being, precisely bc we are such fragile creatures and suffering is our positive state. Well-being is based on the continual staving off of suffering (thirst, hunger, illness, cold , heat, etc etc). The issue is that coming into existence always causes great harm and not doing so doesn't.
"'I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience." Mark Twain
"Maybe life is worth living after all...and by extension, worth starting."
He specifically said that humans don't always have the "luck" of being under the optimism bias. Only around 80%. So what you're saying is it's worth starting and fuck those 20%.
Because evidently his life isn't so bad that it warrants suicide. The problem is that even if we reject the thesis that it's always bad to be born there remains the very real fact that there are a great many lives that are definitely not worth living (for one because the individual herself chose to end it). Since we cannot predict how the life of our offspring is going to evolve and there's a very real risk it's going to be highly miserable and painful it's irresponsible to gamble with other people's future.
The quality threshold for a life worth starting is much higher than for one worth continuing as in the latter case having to do yourself in requires much effort, planning and courage.
If you'd bothered to read the book you'd know this instead of asking a question dr. Benatar has answered already. Instead of looking for the obiter dicta you should have looked for the rationes decidendi.
Obiter Dicta worth living doesn’t mean worth starting. The life of a child with Down syndrome is probably worth continuing but it’s not worth starting. Why inflict so much pain even if it IS bearable eventually. Would you like it if I placed you 1000000 dollars in debt (Down syndrome) just because you CAN pay it off if you work hard enough?
The problem is that we humans are hungry. We need food, like other animals. Hence we eat meat.
it’s not necessary to eat meat for a lot of people in this day and age, it’s also a choice that you make, there is a lot of plant based foods that nourish and keep you alive
Benatar has argued about nutritional needs and desires for meat eating
We need food but humans aren't carnivores, we don't even seem to be omnivores when you look at how our body has evolved and all the damage meat does to our health-cancer, heart disease, stroke, wasting disease, BSE, arthritis, osteoporosis...
@@lakehuron7733 Humans are omnivores and closer to obligate carnivores than anything else. Meat isn't linked to any of these diseases at all lmao. You are spreading pure unscientific ridiculous propaganda just to get people to avoid meat. Pathetic. You literally just lied through your teeth like most of you st*pid vegans are known for doing. Risk of these diseases like osteoporosis or athrithis are actually elevated by avoiding animal products. The fact there are people on the carnivore diet who reversed these diseases proves you are utterly wrong and have no clue what you are talking about.
What a 🤡
@@user-zr4ci7oc9t Sure you can survive and thrive on a lot of plant foods for a considerable time while alive but eventually, the negative effects and results of a lack of animal products would take a toll on your body. Not everyone can afford to avoid meat and it is necessary to eat it since it's nutritional value is too high that the risks of avoiding it far outweighs any so called possible benefits.