Episode 7, David Benatar, On Not Having Children
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ส.ค. 2024
- In this episode, Alex talks to Prof. David Benatar about the ethics of having children, and his view - anti-natalism - according to which it is always morally wrong to reproduce. They discuss the arguments mainly in his book Better Never to Have Been (www.amazon.co...., and some difficult topics, such as mortality, suicide and abortion.
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Read "Better to Never Have Been" recently and I can't get enough of Benatar. Great interview!!
Read Thomas Ligotti's "The Conspiracy Against the Human Race" ! Its free on Library Genesis.
"Better to never have been"
these are the perfect words,to sum up,my experience,and my way of thinking,about this life.
I knew a fellow who suffered from immense mental illness. He was unemployed for most of his life, and struggled to hold onto meaningful relationships with women. He was a Buddhist. He was horrified at the immense suffering, endured by most people generally in the world. He told me that the first conscious memory he had after he was born, was that he was horrified that he had been born into this world again. By the time he was in his mid 60s, he was scarred from the totality of the suffering he had endured. Suddenly he was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. It was a death sentence. Suddenly he was at peace. He could see that all his suffering was to be over with his death. He embraced his death in a whole hearted manner. His hope was that he would escape the cycle of rebirth, and achieve Nirvana. His greatest fear was not so much to die, but to then be reincarnated back into this world, and then go through another cycle of suffering.
Why do you say he suffered from mental illness?
@@andresmorales7228 Because I knew him well.
@@kimw200blaze4 I assume it has nothing to do with him having been a Buddhist as you said he was or not having had a regular job
@@andresmorales7228 No, it has nothing to do with him being an Buddhist or not having an regular job. He was an Alcoholic, and a person who suffered major depression. He was however an sober alcoholic when he died.
@@kimw200blaze4 he wasn't a real Buddhist if he was an alcoholic then. Maybe he sympathized with Buddhism which it's totally different.
This is a real conversation full of respect.
The worst argument I've heard for having children was, “then, who's going to look after you when you get old?” I've heard that several times, and I patiently waited for these people to wax on about the joys of having children, but that's all I got. Who's going to look after you when you get old? Can a person really be that selfish?
Yes, selfishness is vampiristic, we live in a vampiristic world based on domination, control and competition. To bring children in such a world is an act of selfishness mediocrity instead true love(Unconditional ). If you really know Love you will never want your children to be born in a slave society.
Best thing I ever done was not have kids
Shame couldn't have met you when I was young
You can't count something you didn't do as something you did.
If you do, then it's not the "BEST".
You didn't rape and torture a bunch of schoolkids [maybe not a good example but you get the idea].
That's gotta beat merely not having kids.
@@ReasonableForseeability when it comes to having kids tho, it might be different. Being that having kids is the greatest peer pressure of all. You have everyone from your mother, your family, all your peers, society etc pressuring you into having kids. Having kids is also an inherent code in our DNA. Choosing to not have kids is actually a decision, a denial of primal tendencies triggered by society on a constant basis, making it an actual process of choosing to do something, which is different than choosing not to do something. The something being chose is a lifestyle outside the norm which is definitely doing something.
People should keep it that way! Life is a hell hole. I would never want to come back here once I die.
I agree. I wish my parents would have made the same decision.
I am so glad that I got my tubes tied up years ago when I was 21 and I am very happy with my decision now that the world is going to hell in a razor wire handbasket over and over again
Wisest decision you ever made in your life.
Great interview, I liked it more than Sam Harris' talk with Professor Benatar. Your questions were helpful in understanding his points.
This is the best interview with Benatar that I've heard so far. The interviewer let Benatar clarify his philosophy with a depth that I haven't heard so far in an interview. I've read some of the books. But this helps clarify it for we non-academic philosophers.
One of the best interviews I've heard with Benatar on this subject - substance-wise.
The host / interviewer may not have agreed, but certainly seemed to understand the issues.
Thank you David! Thank you Alex! :)
Jak śmiesz?! :)
Może zrobisz jakiś polskojęzyczny materiał na ten temat na swoim kanale, hmmm?
So I asked him about love. He said it was a battlefield.
Why should he say that
@@darthbane7140 th-cam.com/video/IGVZOLV9SPo/w-d-xo.html
@@ReasonableForseeability
Scam link
Brascofarian...haha very funny and clever comment :)
A sense of humour definitely helps the unbearable slightly more bearable. 😅
I would never create another life to suffer we as people need to stop pretending life is some great fun thing to live. It’s a stupid game that has no purpose other then to replicate itself over and over again.
We are all socially and biological indoctrinated to believe that making offsprings is a great thing.
Correct, give a look to Howdie Mikovski information, he is the other one who get it and explains very well this vampiristic programing that keep us in the cave(underworld ).
Great conversation.
Thank you for this.. I agree with Benatar, life is a tragedy why bringing more people to suffer.. We don’t have the right to decide when to end it😔
What do you mean don't have a right?
WTF? You meant to say we don't have the right to decide when to BEGIN it.
We have the right to END it (suicide) when it's insufferable.
@@ReasonableForseeability I think that was meant in a legal sense.
We most definitely do have the right, it's not recognized by vile society and even more vile religion.
@@catherineobrien8696 He meant the society thinks we dont
Broke: having kids
Woke: no one should have children
I guess it’s been that way since the invention of welfare.
@@zyxwfish Welfare was invented because of the behavior.
Treva Graham welfare was invented for a way for the government to skim some off the top and have control over some people.
@@zyxwfish To skim off the top and have control over people was why the Government was invented in the first place. Welfare is just one of the ways they do this.
Treva Graham absolutely
Great interview... much better that Harris' interview. You let David talk and deftly directed the discussion twoards new dimensions
I just don't understand how/why anyone would ever have children. Maybe I'm an idiot, but it really makes no sense to me at all.
@HiPoint1095Carbine That's not being mean at all. That's just the truth.
Because they find their lives and the world around them to be valuable and meaningful, which is good.
@@cosmiclifeist4875 again just because you enjoy your life that doesn't give you the right to create more life. This isn't hard to understand.
@@trevagraham1605 Just because you don't enjoy your life doesn't mean you have the moral authority to impose your pessimism universally on others without sufficient justification. This is indeed very easy to understand.
@@cosmiclifeist4875 I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist. No one can consent to being born therefore you shouldn't reproduce. Every 46 seconds a person commits suicide successfully. Thats not including failed attempts, people that secretly think about doing it everyday, and people that are in constant therapy over the horrors of life. If you enjoy you life great but don't impose it on anyone else. If your life is so great I'm not sure why you're watching these types of videos.
Let me start by saying that I've never had the desire to have children so I can never understand that urge. But if i did I couldn't with good conscience want to bring a child in this world
To bring future generations In a slave world means a never ending slave trade. By stopping to procreate in a slave based world means true Love.
You're a good listener Alex....therefore good interviewer.
I just want to say that this is the best name I've ever seen for a philosophy channel
I can say few things about Buddhism I'm not any sort of expert, but I'll say this. "The goal" (I put that in quotes for a reason that is hard to explain at least for me so look elsewhere for explanation) is to reach the state of never getting born again, to exit the cycle of Samara. Everything that David is saying matches Buddhism perfectly well in my view. And even a solution to the problem is not be born. I mean there is no way I can explain the whole doctrine here but yeah antinatalism is very very buddist and if you go with that idea to some Buddist country they will say yes ofc what else is new.
Buddism is in fact so radical to say that even things we experience as pleasure are in fact suffering but we are just so adapted to it that we don't perceive it correctly. We are deluded as they would say.
I don't believe in reincarnation (but in a previous life I did).
I disagree with your Buddhist argument. Sounds like a "forced fit" to me.
@Nobody Nobody - I never believed in reincaration until I went to see a therapist in order to stop smoking. I found out to my horror that I have actually been here before - needless to say I started to smoke even heavier in order to cope with the brutal reality of what I discovered.
Buddhism seeks to elevate existence, not negate it. Western pessimistic ideas cannot be imposed on eastern philosophy. Buddhists also believe in reincarnation, which mean that the cycle cannot end my merely not creating beings.
What is the fucking point of all that though? Even if you incarnate or don't incarnate and reach enlightenment it's still pointless.
@@ChickpeatheTortie Stop doing drugs.
great interview, great conversation. Thank you for this..💙
I enjoy these debates and this topic and the depth of reasoning from most people.
However sometimes I yearn for a more simplistic outlook.
And keeping it simple: my outlook is that this is a cruel unforgiving world, where most of us are born into mandatory covert slavery (usury-based banking system); with an Orwellian New World Order structure of oppression, under the illusion we somehow have freedom. I see dumbed down, oppressed, zombified, repeater slaves around me. Not free-spirited happy souls. Most people; and especially the working classes are existing not living. With the haves and have nots throughout society.
I also see very little opportunity for people to escape. Again, especially the working classes, unless they tread on their contemporaries to 'get up the ladder'. Meaning they capitalise (parasite) off of others labour and skills.
I often want to viscerally express to these slaves "What are you doing?! Why the fuck are you bringing another slave onto the plantation??"
Please, people snap out of your illusional artificial reality. Wake up to your slavery. Please stop perpetrating this suffering by breeding.
Capitalism also improved the daily lives of a large percentage of the world population. The problem is not some human system that is oppressing us, if anything that is just another defence mechanism against the more disturbing idea that our universe is actually the problem
Is there anyway to make this louder? I downloaded the audio and can barely hear it over my headphones at the gym....
Open in vlc media player and turn audio above 100%
Even if everything in life was good, it will end. 0 to 0.
@Cj Senanayake Exactly! You can't beat time, and the fact that death may be worse than life it's not worth the gamble. #nonexistenceFTW!
@@trevagraham1605 That doesn't mean one cannot cherish what they have while it lasts. #TruthandExistenceFTW
@@cosmiclifeist4875 that still doesn't give you the right to reproduce which is what this is really about #teamnonexistenceftw
@@trevagraham1605 It does, because it means that there is a sufficient chance that a meaningful life can exist. #teamexistenceFTW
@@cosmiclifeist4875 there is your fallacy right there. No life has any meaning. Any "meaning" your life has is purely synthetic. I dare you to name one reason to create life that isn't either selfish or narcissistic.
So if I had the option to go back in time and prevent life from existing, I would be morally obliged to do so? I guess thats a silly question since no one would have to undo anything if they never where in the first place, rabbit hole
Only if you accept his premises and moral framework. If you do not then you would not be morally obliged to do so (necessarily). Then I suppose there is a meta-ethical question one should ask themselves which is - even if you do accept his moral framework, should you always behave morally?
Just some additional thoughts to consider on this topic, but the meta-ethical question I suppose is one to think of in general.
Thank you! :)
Great interview. You were a great host Alex, allowed the interviewee to express themselves.
Although I respect Shaepenhauer's work. I would say life is worse now, in terms of freedoms. We are being attacked by zionist run governments with immense Orwellian controls. Children are growing up now in environments where they think this big brother control grid is normal. Plus the ridiculous levels of pollution: water, air, EMP, G5, chemtrails and toxic foods.
Why, why, why would any compassionate, conscious thinking individual bring a child into this existance!?
Three wrong reasons why people reproduce:
1/. Social, community and family.
2/. Ego/Kudos - I want my genes to continue. I want to be a daddy/mummy.
3/. Carelessness. The child just happened. There is no such thing as an accident with child birth. Tripping up is an accident. But having unprotected sex is plain irresponsible.
Pregnancy can occur through protected sex, not just unprotected.
@@jackmclaren768 But even then abortion is often available. If not then it's optimal to not have sex at all, as hard as it is to resist those desires, at least not without one or both parties being sterilised
@@lewisbirkett4428 What are your views on the AN argument? Do you have any problems with it at all?
@@jackmclaren768 I'm a strong AN. I'm sure there are some flaws with the arguments but for me I don't have any problems.
23:54 does anybody know the source of this paper Benatar is talking about? Any link or something?
Pretty confident it's this:
The Misanthropic Argument for Anti-natalism
David Benatar
DOI:10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002
It appears actually to be a chapter in the book 'Permissible Progeny?: The Morality of Procreation and Parenting'
Let's assume people stop having children and humanity goes extinct -- but then intelligent life will likely evolve again from the life that still survives on earth. Those new beings will again have to go through immense suffering just like our ancestors have, only to reach the level of our current civilization (which has relatively much lower levels of suffering compared to the past). So there could actually be a moral imperative to better or preserve the current human condition to prevent this from happening, contrary to Benatar's position.
It would not be that difficult to destroy the atmosphere and irradiate the planet before/during/after our extinction which would ensure no complex sentient life could evolve.
So are you suggesting that we should kill the great apes etc, before we go extinct? How about the humans who will want to procreate against your wishes? Should we kill them too?? Because there will always be people who will want to have kids. Benatar is right to point out that life is suffering, but fails to acknowledge that antinatalism is not a practical solution to this -- life or existence itself is the problem, which cannot be eliminated. Large decreases in population due to antinatalism will only decrease quality of life and increase suffering for future sentient beings, who will exist no matter what.
walruss111
_"So are you suggesting that we should kill the great apes etc, before we go extinct?"_
Not just the great apes... *All sentient life* It isn't ideal, but we cannot convince animals not to procreate and sterilizing each individual would be next to impossible.
_"How about the humans who will want to procreate against your wishes? Should we kill them too??"_
We could make procreation illegal and the punishment could be lethal injection, great idea, thanks!
_"Benatar is right to point out that life is suffering, but fails to acknowledge that antinatalism is not a practical solution to this "_
So you agree existence is a harm but you don't think creating innocent beings and forcing them to exist is a harm? I'm sorry, do you think its okay to hurt others because you were hurt at some point?
_" life or existence itself is the problem, which cannot be eliminated."_
All life will eventually go extinct. One way or another, sooner or later everything will be extinct and the universe will be lifeless again. Whether our extinction happens when the sun dies and burns away everything or maybe we survive the death of our planet and our sun and we die out when the heat death occurs. Life began and life will end, all life ends and you are part of the cause of the death of your child. So you are wrong life can be eliminated and quite easily, nor does it all have to be violent.
_"Large decreases in population due to antinatalism will only decrease quality of life and increase suffering for future sentient beings, who will exist no matter what."_
Rapid large decreases could decrease the quality of life. But a slow decrease while still bringing in some new faces to help run the extinction as long as we aim for decline things will be better than they are now, until we are extinct.
Also, a decrease in population could benefit a population by freeing up resources for others
You are arguing for promortalism -- antinatalism as advocated by Benatar is a passive process not involving actively killing sentient beings. Antinatalism cannot eliminate sentient life, because there will always be people who will choose to procreate. Hate to break it to you, but humans won't collectively decide to kill themselves and all life on earth. But sure, if you are a promortalist, you can go ahead, try and kill people etc -- unlikely that you can kill every sentient being before someone else kills you or you go to jail.
walruss111 we could forcibly sterilize those who do not understand that procreation is a harm. As for the promortalism, no I am not arguing for promortalism. I was simply playing along with your silly idea that antinatalism would never work. There are many ways it could. You simply lack the imagination or simply don't care to think that deeply about these things. Either way it's okay. Also it was you who first suggested killing those who would procreate not me.
Trying to listen to this interviewer fumble through this is a great example of the suffering that would be best avoided in life.
lol
Life is probably not good (in general) but it is definitely interesting (in general).
Good point!
For most people it isn’t. Most people’s life revolves about fighting for survival, in boring life consuming jobs with long hours and the only free time they get is to recover
yarroslavus for most people it’s an ordeal which they find ways to medicate.
Why the word "but"? "Interesting" is no consolation for "unbearable".
Isn't it interesting how they writhe in agony? I assume you get the point.
th-cam.com/video/sTd_73Slj3Q/w-d-xo.html
@@Lu-bq7xq That's the "lucky" ones. Less fortunate are, for example, those being tortured in prisons.
25:46 whether antinatalist choice would contingent on the situation around the world. I like this part the most.
The problem with most westerners is that they don't get emptiness/nothingness. They put automatically negative meaning, while in reality it's just neutral. This is why they have hard time understanding the asymmetry of the problem. IMO, this is not a problem for other cultures...
What a load of cobblers! It's not even clear whose side you're on.
Westerners are mostly all fucked in the head. They should go live in a 3rd world country for a awhile and tell me how good life is.
@@willytrolls I’ll tell you this, although the so called people you call “third worlders” may not have the latest gadgets, they do at least have that sense of community amongst each other. As opposed to Westerners who are very individualistic which creates an emptiness in people’s lives and less trust of the Other.
It’s because Westerners are selfish.
However I do have to say, if you’re a poor African, don’t bring kids into this world knowing very well you can’t provide for them.
Instead of trying to make it about situation , why dont you just ask the question
why do you make children in the first place ? whats the point ?
based benatar
The audio quality on Benatar's side is attrocious. What a pity! I had to stop listening after a few minutes.
It's true, Benatar's audio quality was definitely not good, but I COULD hear it easily. He sounded far away. So important to use top-notch mics, phones, etc.
I had the exact same reaction and did not initially listen to it for the same reason. However, if you can bear that bad audio on Benatar's side, it is worth listening to.
Get a better mic. Oh my
Benatar needs to look into Generic Subjective Continuity.
One word: goodbye fossil fuels = stop having kids.
8:49 "... I feel if we now imagine the opposite of that case: the case of someone who has a really great time - all the time (the opposite end of the extreme)... it would be better to bring that person into existence ; wouldn't it" (?)
Bringing Boris Johnson into existence was hardly a good idea 😂 😅
He may not like this name but isn’t benatar the most popular pessimist today? Yes he is not on a fraction of shows that the likes of Jordan Peterson are on, because pessimism is always going to have a bad rap.
Of course it will, we want to ride into hell blissful and optimistic, don't spoil the party.
Well optimism is hard wired into humans through evolution , so pessims will always have a bad rap .
Till humans cone to the point where the majority of them are more logical
@@uvindukulathunga3860 being logical according to Schopenhauer leads to extinction though
He's not a pessimist; he's a realist. Most naive people label real honest talk as pessimism simply because it sounds unpleasant.
Really enjoying all of the comments of people who just want to live a lazy, selfish life desperately try to defend their position through broken moral arguments lol
bouncy house Sorry to disappoint you, but breeders are the selfish ones. Give me a reason to create life that isn't either selfish, narcissistic, ignorant, or negligent.
@@trevagraham1605 because existence is better than nonexistence.
@@bouncycastle955 LOL! Well at least you have a sense of humor, but that's not an answer.
@HiPoint1095Carbine there is no guaranteed suffering. Existence is better than nonexistence. Existence is the only possibility where anything matters at all.
@HiPoint1095Carbine That's a fact!!!
The incel king.
I'm sorry you have such an undeveloped mind, that is also suffering.
Nothing new here really. We have always known life involves suffering and yet here we still are. If life was so unremittingly unbearable we would have quit centuries ago.
you assume humans are logical. a great many are not and even many more run on dillusion and base instinct which ironically leads to great suffering
K. CHAN you’re presuming I’m assuming 😀
No that’s not true. Most People are not consciously aware enough to fight their biological urge to reproduce.
MustObeyTheRules or maybe AN is just not compelling as a viable option for the future of humanity.
We didnt 1) bcz we didnt knew biology
2) we are so selfish beings we ise children to bring down our level of suffering specially im the form of boredom
Terrible export from bad Philosophy...