My office is in Tennessee, and yes I have done jobs in Florida. If you have a need for my services, please contact me through my web-site superiormodelrailroads.com
@@Darken-Rahl I am in Cedar Grove, just a little NE of Jackson. I don't have an actual training course. What I can do is come to your home and work with you on some aspect of your layout, giving you the opportunity to learn hands-on directly from me. If you are interested, please contact me through my web-site (link in the description).
I'm pretty sure I can answer that question yes he travels all over the place I don't mean to step on his toes but I'm sure he will say that. I don't know where his office is I'm trying to find out if he even lives in the country have a nice day
Thanks for sharing. That was a very interesting design and shows how a diorama concept can work. The humor was good as well. Didn't think that needed to be designed in per say, but makes sense after watching the video.
I couldn’t believe the length of the list of things he wanted and what you managed to fit in. The idea of the fisherman catching a tyre while his dog catches a fish - I think I’ll nick that one!
Stephen Beck Please let me know should you nick off with the Dog vignette, from prison if necessary. When I saw Peter's Plan I considered the same thing. My plan however attached the tire to an IR Servo motor, which would raise and lower the tire in and out of the lake. The exposed end of the tire may be attached to an ultrafine wire (maybe 32 gauge, as fishing line). When the tire descends below the sub-layout it pulls the wire, which pulls the rod, which pull the man. At the waist. As the tire resurfaces the tension diminishes and the fisherman springs backward. I "think" I know how to pull that off. Should any commenters have an idea how to bring the fish, in the jaws of a Big Mouth Basset Hound, to life PLEASE write. In 4 days I start dismantling my 62 year old HO Layout for a major rehab. ~Jim at jvanamb
Fortunately for you, I get a lot of layout designs to do. A good design is the first essential to an enjoyable layout, and there are a lot more people who are willing to spend the cost of a professional layout design than who are able to pay for a professionally built layout.
You were 100 % Correct to share this video. I loved every second of it. I think your planning And designing skills are off the chart fantastic and your ability to meet a clients needs are perfect.
Yes that happens a lot. I have several more design projects in that category, including two very complex triple-deck layouts, a nice-sized steel-mill layout in an attic room, and a couple more. One or two of them may still get resurrected though.
Without a doubt- this is one of your more impressive videos because it shows the massive amount of ingenuity you have in tackling these problems and being efficient. Simply amazing job.
Right when you mentioned the space was going to change and the plan would be abandoned I thought "No! That would've been awesome to see created!" I like the humor you came up with, as well. Glad you shared this, it gives us so many ideas on how to make creative use of space.
Thanks for sharing. This new challenge with the dioramas was in fact a new perspective on your great designing skills. Which is also true for the additional request on humorous scenes which you served over the top, too. I do hope that you still get a chance to bring these ideas to life.
Petter you always make me laugh as you can make everyone's wishes come true and your humor is a wellness for anyone's heart, I enjoy how you come up with so many great ideas....thanks for sharing....Jack 👍👍👍
Thank you, mpeterll. It was well worth sharing. I am always in awe of the diversity of your designs and concepts and how you are able to exactly match the "dreams" of the client - it's almost as though you have a crystal ball (something which eludes me as a software developer!). I really appreciate you sharing the whole life cycle of each project and explaining the context and reasons for each of your decisions.
As your comment has gathered a few likes, I guess there are others who feel the same way. I can't see that it's ever going to happen though (even if there was a market for it) because universities are very elitist organizations. Unless one has a 4-year degree, they won't hire you for anything (except perhaps as a janitor). I don't know if others are the same, but at the University of Phoenix, they won't hire any faculty without a master's degree. For some reason, universities believe that four years of theory is worth more than a lifetime of practice. In the unlikely event that a university director approaches me with an offer (even if it's only to prove me wrong), I'll certainly consider it.
@@mpeterll - well, if you go on the site and go through the list of "teachers", I can guarantee that not all of them are "Masters Degree" holders. Thing is, you don't have to be involved with a university to spread your knowledge. This TH-cam channel is one venue but if you go through your "Community College" system which seems a bit like our College system (which is totally separate from the University level), you could do a course on what you do from a carpentry/structural design view. You start off teaching your students how to build a bench that is sturdy and portable, that can be attached to all the others and voila, you have a railroad display! Just say'n - there are possibilities. Either way - you have loads of talent and I wish you all the best that things in general get settled and your layout gets a good start before Christmas. Take care and keep well.
another possibility- after school program for high school students. another possibility- a one-week program for adults- like a railroad "camp" every summer. first day covers track planning, layout design and bench work and wiring. second day covers terrain shaping, track work, points and motors. maybe it should be 2 weeks. another possibility would be an online course (paid for of course) where each "course" is a 2-hour video instruction on some aspect of railroading. a course like this, once created, could earn you passive income the rest of your life. you could also offer some one-on-one online face time with anyone taking the course to help them tie up any loose ends and answer questions. you could feature the layouts of those who completed your course on your youtube channel (which would also promote your course). the possibilities are endless.
That looked like it was going to be amazing. I was so sad that you weren't going to be able to finish it. Hopefully you we're too disappointed knowing that whatever you're going to do on this project will be just as inspiring.
You just wanted to show off a little bit and keep the "nothing I can't accomplish" record intact. Hope this video helps your viewers, yeah right. LOL! You do a magnificent job designing these layouts. If you ever wanted to change what you do you could go into interior design or be an architect. Amazing how you do it. Stay well. -Wil 👍
@@mpeterll I took architecture classes in High School and should have pursued that further but my love of trains got in the way. While in HS I worked at the North Carolina Transportation Museum in the mechanical department as assistant to the master mechanic. His and my jobs were the only two that were paid positions with anything to do with the trains at the museum. All others were volunteers. The summer after I graduated HS a contractor that traveled around the country rebuilding steam locomotives did a boiler serve on the 2-8-0 #604 that was at the museum. I had helped dismantle it for the serve and possible rebuild that did not happen. It's been sold now. I went to work with this man instead of going to college in the fall. A couple years and a child later the economy tanked and the federal funding most of the museums and tourist railroads depended on for funding of these rebuild projects wasn't there anymore. So again instead of school I went to work as a laborer at a local grading and hauling company. Now I run heavy equipment moving dirt and look back and think I should have pursued college.
LOVE the upper deck design. I model in S gauge (American Flyer). Do you have any track plans for S that you already have done? I have most of my layout done, just wondering if you have thought of anything that I have not.
Peter, It is an honest hardship that this lovely layout is on hold. Much like the rest of the world. There are two areas that I disagree with your choices. First the doors leading into the Slop Sink or Paint Booth. You are correct that they would be a minor hazard. HOWEVER, to rid your client of this conflict simply hang Bi-Fold doors to the opposite side of the door jam. The door swing could fold back into the "L" shaped wall structure to park out of the way of all traffic. Second the Football End Zone. As the house is yet to be built your client could, money being what it is, hire a floor covering specialist to paint or tile the floor with the remainder of the Football Field. Then spectators could watch the RxR Ops from the 50 yard line. (hidden humor). One thing I would have added lack of money permitting would be a Magna-Rail system in/under the lake. Then select boats would sail about the lake. (again hidden humor). It's a pity to me that you had to stop at this moment. As usual your design was coming along exquisitely. Marvelous job. ~Jim
Actually, I have to disagree with you on the use of bi-fold doors. Bi-folds need to run in a track, meaning that they cannot open more than 90-degrees. Thus, when open, they will stick out and block the passage (this is unavoidable). With conventional doors, they can instead be opened 180-degrees to get them out of the way.
I worked with a gentleman from the Houghton-Hancock area. He said the only time it didnt snow was if the wind was straight out of the South. Any other direction and they got lake effect snow.
Well at least he challenged you in order to fit all his wants into a relatively small area. So now with all these ideas you’ve created for others, will they be reflected in your layout in some degree? And speaking of which, how is the planning for your design coming along? You spend so much time on other persons’ dreams, you have to spend some time on your own!
Sometimes being successful in starting a small business can be a double-edged sword. I've had no time to work on my own plan for months now. Until the house in Michigan sells, I have to take all the work I can get.
@@mpeterll - oh wow. I didnt know that property was still on the market. That's hard doing at any time, but now its particularly buggered up. I hope you have arranged to rent it out or something. A vacant house is hard to market but I guess you know all that. Good luck in selling it - sooner than later. Strangely, the real estate market up here is relatively unchanged. Houses are being bought and sold all over. They've heavily embraced the virtual open house concept. Many homes go within a couple of weeks, but that's the GTA for you, it is a very attractive place to live in Canada and where we live, the prices are not too scary.
Do you live in the US the UK? I'm proud to travel all over the country and the world to do layouts that's amazing. Question number two how long have you been doing layouts? Question number three do you always work alone I saw one gentleman once working with you. Question number four probably more of a statement you must have a wonderful relationship with your wife for her allow you to go around the world for the country but then I where you live to do these things unless you bring her along with you I don't know that you don't have to answer that that's personal business I understand that's just my opinion. I can't get enough of your channel I write down everything I don't know so I never forget it. I was going to Carpenter for 40 years very good at what I do Craftsman trim work kitchen installs tile work the whole nine yards I'll let you go in plumbing not so good I can wire a layout I've done it before everybody has their issues I'll work out my kinks I've also learned to wire as I go something you don't do I noticed you're obviously a better electrician than myself. Troubleshooting not my strong point I'm just rambling on now. Let me know your thoughts also have you ever done o scale for yourself I started out with those scale had to sell it got too expensive couldn't afford $115 a turnout I'm not rich I'm a carpenter as I stated before we never get rich had to go back to Ho.
One question, the open area to the left wall that is white. Is that an egress window? In the foundation of the house. Building code might have something to say about blocking an egress window.
@@mpeterll my mistake, it looks more like a foundation wall for a house. But then again those blue prints wouldn't show door openings. I might have missed your description in the video. Love those by the way. Your very detailed and articulate.
I find the diorama concept attractive, but how well does it work in reality watching a train partially in summer and partially in winter? Does the mind trick itself because we all tend to watch the locomotives or some such?
It's probably no different to what we see on many layouts with multiple disjointed scenes pushed together. Provided everything visible at any one moment looks right together, there's no reason why the mind should be put off by something it witnessed a minute ago.
Peter, you have clients with interesting requirements! You have 2 helices here. Since a helix takes up a lot of space, there must be a good reason for two of them here. Could you explain that? Thanks!
That can be simply explained by the oft-quoted phrase "what goes up must come down". When it is required for a continuous circuit to span multiple layout decks, it is necessary to pass between the decks twice. Since it requires a very large space to do this without resorting to a helix (and this room certainly doesn't fit into the "very large" category), two helices are necessary. Sometimes it is possible to place the helices one in side the other. At first glance, this might appear as a single helix, when it reality, it would be two separate concentric helices. With a double track main line, a pair of concentric helices would need to be four tracks wide. Now, I have done this a couple of times in layout plans, but this arrangement brings with it, its own set of problems. In HO-scale, adding two extra tracks to a helix means an extra 10" on the diameter for the same inner track radius, meaning that already it's using up a lot more space than it would with just two tracks. Not only that, but the helix roadbed now needs to be around 11" wide for adequate track centers and support clearance. This is too wide to conveniently reach in between layers that have only about 3 1/2" vertical clearance, and to increase that separation, it is necessary to increase either the grade or the radius. Since helices are usually already plenty steep enough (often the ruling grade for the line), that means that the only option is to enlarge the helix. By this time, it's now taking up more space than two separate helices. Sometimes the shape of the layout will favor one method, and at other times the other.
You do great work were is your office and do you do jobs in fla
My office is in Tennessee, and yes I have done jobs in Florida. If you have a need for my services, please contact me through my web-site superiormodelrailroads.com
@@mpeterll Where are you located in Tennessee? I too live there and may be interested in your training course.
@@Darken-Rahl I am in Cedar Grove, just a little NE of Jackson. I don't have an actual training course. What I can do is come to your home and work with you on some aspect of your layout, giving you the opportunity to learn hands-on directly from me. If you are interested, please contact me through my web-site (link in the description).
I'm pretty sure I can answer that question yes he travels all over the place I don't mean to step on his toes but I'm sure he will say that. I don't know where his office is I'm trying to find out if he even lives in the country have a nice day
I love the humorous bits on the layout. I'll have to add a few of those to my layout.
Very impressive layout both scenically and operationally, especially for the amount of space. Can't wait see the build get under way.
This layout won't be built. Check out the second video of this layout design. That version will be started within the next few days.
Love the humor 😄 great creative design 👌
Thanks for sharing. That was a very interesting design and shows how a diorama concept can work. The humor was good as well. Didn't think that needed to be designed in per say, but makes sense after watching the video.
I couldn’t believe the length of the list of things he wanted and what you managed to fit in. The idea of the fisherman catching a tyre while his dog catches a fish - I think I’ll nick that one!
Stephen Beck Please let me know should you nick off with the Dog vignette, from prison if necessary. When I saw Peter's Plan I considered the same thing.
My plan however attached the tire to an IR Servo motor, which would raise and lower the tire in and out of the lake. The exposed end of the tire may be attached to an ultrafine wire (maybe 32 gauge, as fishing line). When the tire descends below the sub-layout it pulls the wire, which pulls the rod, which pull the man. At the waist.
As the tire resurfaces the tension diminishes and the fisherman springs backward. I "think" I know how to pull that off.
Should any commenters have an idea how to bring the fish, in the jaws of a Big Mouth Basset Hound, to life PLEASE write.
In 4 days I start dismantling my 62 year old HO Layout for a major rehab.
~Jim at jvanamb
These are my favorite episodes, keep up the good work
Fortunately for you, I get a lot of layout designs to do. A good design is the first essential to an enjoyable layout, and there are a lot more people who are willing to spend the cost of a professional layout design than who are able to pay for a professionally built layout.
You never cease to amaze me - what can’t you do! A great shame that the project is on hold.
There are a few things (as in a million or so) I can't do, but I'm not going to mention them here. You'll have to discover them yourself :-)
You were 100 % Correct to share this video. I loved every second of it.
I think your planning And designing skills are off the chart fantastic and your ability to meet a clients needs are perfect.
I really love this concept. Well done!
Isn't that the way it goes. About the time your imagination is in full swing, the rug is pulled out from under the project. Great ideas.
Yes that happens a lot. I have several more design projects in that category, including two very complex triple-deck layouts, a nice-sized steel-mill layout in an attic room, and a couple more. One or two of them may still get resurrected though.
Without a doubt- this is one of your more impressive videos because it shows the massive amount of ingenuity you have in tackling these problems and being efficient. Simply amazing job.
Right when you mentioned the space was going to change and the plan would be abandoned I thought "No! That would've been awesome to see created!" I like the humor you came up with, as well. Glad you shared this, it gives us so many ideas on how to make creative use of space.
Even though it didn’t work out, thanks for sharing your design. Very enjoyable listening to your thought process.
that is one hell if a shopping list.
superb as usual.
nice one
Thanks for sharing. This new challenge with the dioramas was in fact a new perspective on your great designing skills. Which is also true for the additional request on humorous scenes which you served over the top, too. I do hope that you still get a chance to bring these ideas to life.
I love watching your videos. It allows me to see what is possible compared to what I now have. 👍👍
Petter you always make me laugh as you can make everyone's wishes come true and your humor is a wellness for anyone's heart, I enjoy how you come up with so many great ideas....thanks for sharing....Jack 👍👍👍
Thank you, mpeterll. It was well worth sharing. I am always in awe of the diversity of your designs and concepts and how you are able to exactly match the "dreams" of the client - it's almost as though you have a crystal ball (something which eludes me as a software developer!). I really appreciate you sharing the whole life cycle of each project and explaining the context and reasons for each of your decisions.
dude you should teach model railroading at the university level. great video.
Yes - one of those Masterclass courses.
As your comment has gathered a few likes, I guess there are others who feel the same way. I can't see that it's ever going to happen though (even if there was a market for it) because universities are very elitist organizations. Unless one has a 4-year degree, they won't hire you for anything (except perhaps as a janitor). I don't know if others are the same, but at the University of Phoenix, they won't hire any faculty without a master's degree. For some reason, universities believe that four years of theory is worth more than a lifetime of practice.
In the unlikely event that a university director approaches me with an offer (even if it's only to prove me wrong), I'll certainly consider it.
@@mpeterll - well, if you go on the site and go through the list of "teachers", I can guarantee that not all of them are "Masters Degree" holders.
Thing is, you don't have to be involved with a university to spread your knowledge. This TH-cam channel is one venue but if you go through your "Community College" system which seems a bit like our College system (which is totally separate from the University level), you could do a course on what you do from a carpentry/structural design view. You start off teaching your students how to build a bench that is sturdy and portable, that can be attached to all the others and voila, you have a railroad display!
Just say'n - there are possibilities.
Either way - you have loads of talent and I wish you all the best that things in general get settled and your layout gets a good start before Christmas.
Take care and keep well.
another possibility- after school program for high school students. another possibility- a one-week program for adults- like a railroad "camp" every summer. first day covers track planning, layout design and bench work and wiring. second day covers terrain shaping, track work, points and motors. maybe it should be 2 weeks. another possibility would be an online course (paid for of course) where each "course" is a 2-hour video instruction on some aspect of railroading. a course like this, once created, could earn you passive income the rest of your life. you could also offer some one-on-one online face time with anyone taking the course to help them tie up any loose ends and answer questions. you could feature the layouts of those who completed your course on your youtube channel (which would also promote your course). the possibilities are endless.
That looked like it was going to be amazing. I was so sad that you weren't going to be able to finish it. Hopefully you we're too disappointed knowing that whatever you're going to do on this project will be just as inspiring.
man, I was cracking up with the humor elements "ketchup mfg next to 'Mayo clinic' ".
You just wanted to show off a little bit and keep the "nothing I can't accomplish" record intact. Hope this video helps your viewers, yeah right. LOL! You do a magnificent job designing these layouts. If you ever wanted to change what you do you could go into interior design or be an architect. Amazing how you do it. Stay well. -Wil 👍
My major at university was indeed architecture (although I never graduated).
@@mpeterll I took architecture classes in High School and should have pursued that further but my love of trains got in the way. While in HS I worked at the North Carolina Transportation Museum in the mechanical department as assistant to the master mechanic. His and my jobs were the only two that were paid positions with anything to do with the trains at the museum. All others were volunteers. The summer after I graduated HS a contractor that traveled around the country rebuilding steam locomotives did a boiler serve on the 2-8-0 #604 that was at the museum. I had helped dismantle it for the serve and possible rebuild that did not happen. It's been sold now. I went to work with this man instead of going to college in the fall. A couple years and a child later the economy tanked and the federal funding most of the museums and tourist railroads depended on for funding of these rebuild projects wasn't there anymore. So again instead of school I went to work as a laborer at a local grading and hauling company. Now I run heavy equipment moving dirt and look back and think I should have pursued college.
LOVE the upper deck design. I model in S gauge (American Flyer). Do you have any track plans for S that you already have done? I have most of my layout done, just wondering if you have thought of anything that I have not.
Peter,
It is an honest hardship that this lovely layout is on hold. Much like the rest of the world.
There are two areas that I disagree with your choices. First the doors leading into the Slop Sink or Paint Booth. You are correct that they would be a minor hazard. HOWEVER, to rid your client of this conflict simply hang Bi-Fold doors to the opposite side of the door jam. The door swing could fold back into the "L" shaped wall structure to park out of the way of all traffic.
Second the Football End Zone. As the house is yet to be built your client could, money being what it is, hire a floor covering specialist to paint or tile the floor with the remainder of the Football Field. Then spectators could watch the RxR Ops from the 50 yard line. (hidden humor).
One thing I would have added lack of money permitting would be a Magna-Rail system in/under the lake. Then select boats would sail about the lake. (again hidden humor).
It's a pity to me that you had to stop at this moment. As usual your design was coming along exquisitely. Marvelous job.
~Jim
Actually, I have to disagree with you on the use of bi-fold doors. Bi-folds need to run in a track, meaning that they cannot open more than 90-degrees. Thus, when open, they will stick out and block the passage (this is unavoidable). With conventional doors, they can instead be opened 180-degrees to get them out of the way.
@@mpeterll Interesting. So the doors on my Guest Bedroom Closets don't work?
I worked with a gentleman from the Houghton-Hancock area. He said the only time it didnt snow was if the wind was straight out of the South. Any other direction and they got lake effect snow.
Well at least he challenged you in order to fit all his wants into a relatively small area.
So now with all these ideas you’ve created for others, will they be reflected in your layout in some degree? And speaking of which, how is the planning for your design coming along?
You spend so much time on other persons’ dreams, you have to spend some time on your own!
Sometimes being successful in starting a small business can be a double-edged sword. I've had no time to work on my own plan for months now. Until the house in Michigan sells, I have to take all the work I can get.
@@mpeterll - oh wow. I didnt know that property was still on the market.
That's hard doing at any time, but now its particularly buggered up.
I hope you have arranged to rent it out or something. A vacant house is hard to market but I guess you know all that. Good luck in selling it - sooner than later.
Strangely, the real estate market up here is relatively unchanged. Houses are being bought and sold all over. They've heavily embraced the virtual open house concept. Many homes go within a couple of weeks, but that's the GTA for you, it is a very attractive place to live in Canada and where we live, the prices are not too scary.
Brilliant! Pity it won’t be used.
Do you live in the US the UK? I'm proud to travel all over the country and the world to do layouts that's amazing. Question number two how long have you been doing layouts? Question number three do you always work alone I saw one gentleman once working with you. Question number four probably more of a statement you must have a wonderful relationship with your wife for her allow you to go around the world for the country but then I where you live to do these things unless you bring her along with you I don't know that you don't have to answer that that's personal business I understand that's just my opinion. I can't get enough of your channel I write down everything I don't know so I never forget it. I was going to Carpenter for 40 years very good at what I do Craftsman trim work kitchen installs tile work the whole nine yards I'll let you go in plumbing not so good I can wire a layout I've done it before everybody has their issues I'll work out my kinks I've also learned to wire as I go something you don't do I noticed you're obviously a better electrician than myself. Troubleshooting not my strong point I'm just rambling on now. Let me know your thoughts also have you ever done o scale for yourself I started out with those scale had to sell it got too expensive couldn't afford $115 a turnout I'm not rich I'm a carpenter as I stated before we never get rich had to go back to Ho.
One question, the open area to the left wall that is white. Is that an egress window?
In the foundation of the house. Building code might have something to say about blocking an egress window.
It was designed for an attic room. You really wouldn't want to use that window for egress since it is 20' down to a concrete driveway.
@@mpeterll my mistake, it looks more like a foundation wall for a house. But then again those blue prints wouldn't show door openings. I might have missed your description in the video. Love those by the way. Your very detailed and articulate.
I find the diorama concept attractive, but how well does it work in reality watching a train partially in summer and partially in winter? Does the mind trick itself because we all tend to watch the locomotives or some such?
It's probably no different to what we see on many layouts with multiple disjointed scenes pushed together. Provided everything visible at any one moment looks right together, there's no reason why the mind should be put off by something it witnessed a minute ago.
I also would like to discuss my future O gauge layout.
Very good. Please contact me through my web-site. The link is in the description.
It does matter how much snow we have, it's business as usual, lol
Version looks like a locomotive itself.
Peter, you have clients with interesting requirements! You have 2 helices here. Since a helix takes up a lot of space, there must be a good reason for two of them here. Could you explain that? Thanks!
That can be simply explained by the oft-quoted phrase "what goes up must come down". When it is required for a continuous circuit to span multiple layout decks, it is necessary to pass between the decks twice. Since it requires a very large space to do this without resorting to a helix (and this room certainly doesn't fit into the "very large" category), two helices are necessary.
Sometimes it is possible to place the helices one in side the other. At first glance, this might appear as a single helix, when it reality, it would be two separate concentric helices. With a double track main line, a pair of concentric helices would need to be four tracks wide. Now, I have done this a couple of times in layout plans, but this arrangement brings with it, its own set of problems. In HO-scale, adding two extra tracks to a helix means an extra 10" on the diameter for the same inner track radius, meaning that already it's using up a lot more space than it would with just two tracks. Not only that, but the helix roadbed now needs to be around 11" wide for adequate track centers and support clearance. This is too wide to conveniently reach in between layers that have only about 3 1/2" vertical clearance, and to increase that separation, it is necessary to increase either the grade or the radius. Since helices are usually already plenty steep enough (often the ruling grade for the line), that means that the only option is to enlarge the helix. By this time, it's now taking up more space than two separate helices. Sometimes the shape of the layout will favor one method, and at other times the other.
@@mpeterll Right - the continuous circuit requirement. Thanks.
I was hoping to talk to you about a layout design for my home. How do I contact you to do this ?
Please contact me through my web-site: www.superiormodelrailroads.com
mpeterll ok thanks. I will do that
I can't wait for the day I can ask u to design my layout it would be an honor. Ho scale dreams
Maybe one day.
Have you considered stand up?..some funny stuff here..